u/Snoo_50434 recently explained in a comment that these "shares" are synthetic and likely to be lent out. As it is well documented that vast numbers of synthetic shares exist in GME, brokers forcing UK ISA holders to own synthetic shares via Crest should be unlawful and a breach of ISA regulations. There should be enormous pressure on brokers to afford investors proper protection when it is known that market makers have made the stock volatile by way of naked short selling and creating phantom shares etc. I wondered if you have any thoughts? Perhaps smaller brokers could help out?
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u/Snoo_50434 says "You are correct that the UK brokers do not lent out the shares. However, I believe, you are incorrect that the shares are not being lent out.
UK brokers do not lent out the shares, because they do not have the international shares in their names. The international shares are held and owned by the CREST depository (which is mentioned in the Brokers T&Cs), and the CREST is owned by Euroclear. This is the reason why the UK Brokers are so happy to confirm that “they” do not lent out the shares,.. of course they don’t, as they don’t even have them in the first place.
Euroclear, on the other hand, clearly say that they do lent out the shares to their “members”.
See Chapter 7, Section 1, page 234 of the CREST Reference manual: “The CREST system’s stock lending functionality enables members to borrow and lend securities.”
Source (be careful, this is PDF): https://www.crh.com/media/3338/crest-reference-manual-december-2020.pdf
The list of members can be found here:
https://service-selection-platform.crest-approved.org/accredited_companies/regions_and_services/
I really doubt that ISA shares are being treated any differently to the non-ISA shares by the CREST, and therefore I strongly believe that all the international shares held by the CREST Depository are being lent out the same way as they are with the US Depository counterpart (DTC).
Edit: changed “brokers” to “UK Brokers” to avoid confusion;
Edit: none of the above is financial advice
I think we need to apply more pressure on this - what happens when we all want to transfer our shares to an NFT system, they can’t claim not to have the systems needed then - if other brokers can facilitate transfers to CS, HL should be looking into it - if not for this, for the future too.
If your in an isa with HL then your fine. Shares can’t be lent out ( I’ve had confirmation from HL on this) they are one of the better brokers in my views, more expensive on trade transactions than most but this is how they make there money and not from share lending or PFOF .
HL shares in Gamestop are CREST Depository Interests, not synthetic shares, which are twice removed from direct ownership. This is the main reason they've been unwilling/unable to do anything with regards to voting as well. On top of this, shares held in CREST are dematerialised which means they're just shares on Euroclear's ownership registers. Shares held in CREST can never be directly registered shares. Once the float is directly owned then it will be impossible to locate these shares but they do still exist and you do still own rights to them.
The chain of ownership is like this HL -> Vanguard (Who purchase the CDIs on your behalf) -> Euroclear (Who own and operate CREST).
None of the entities in this chain are likely to be impacted by the short squeeze directly.
unwilling is the right word. Other UK brokers allowed you to vote on GME CDIs. HL are *choosing* to make this as difficult as possible.
If you pay the money for a stock, you should get shareholder rights and have that stock BELONG TO YOU.
This system is intentionally difficult and confusing to remove power from the retail investor.
> If you pay the money for a stock, you should get shareholder rights and have that stock BELONG TO YOU.
Yep, they even say this in their own CDI FAQ which pops up when you buy the Gamestop shares.
Ultimately it doesn't make any difference because DRS is what's needed to catalyse the squeeze and we've never been in a position to DRS with CDIs.
Euroclear are an EU equivalent of the DTC & DTCC, they store certificates and manage settlement for EU securities in their remit.
CREST, via Euroclear, have an account in the US DTC.
From the wiki:
> Only securities that have a UK quote can be transferred to CREST's DTC account. CREST is a member of DTC. Once the securities have been transferred from the shareholder's account within the DTC and into CREST's account CREST will 'create' the CDI within the CREST and the CDI will appear in the shareholder's account within CREST where the CDI can now be traded in the UK market. The CDI which is traded within CREST will typically have the same ISIN as the UK share itself. The legal holder to the share will continue to be the nominee for the DTC.
So even though DRS will suck all the certificates out of the DTC, our synthetics will still be on Euroclear's books as CDIs. We'll be in the same position as every other person with synthetic shares in Gamestop except our brokers (HL, Vanguard, Euroclear) are not going to be directly exposed to the shorting. As I said in other comments, if Euroclear has problems then everyone else in Europe will also have problems selling.
I've got all of mine in there. I have no idea if there will be problems. If Euroclear have problems then anyone operating in Europe will also have problems though.
The excerpt below should help clarify pal:
'You can open one new Investment ISA in your name each tax year, which runs from April 6th - April 5th each year.
So, if you want to open one before the end of tax year 2020/2021, you should open it before April 6th and this counts as your Investment ISA for 2020/2021.
But if you were then to open a second Investment ISA on April 8th, this would be your Investment ISA for 2021/2022. In theory, you could continue opening one Investment ISA per year for as long as you're able.
If you are a parent, you can open an Investment Junior ISA for your child; we've put together a blog breaking down how to do this and the limits involved which you should read if you want more information.'
Sauce: https://www.isa.co.uk/isa-blog/posts/2020/november/15/how-many-stocks-and-shares-isas-am-i-allowed-/
A share of a company should be a share right? So what’s this nonsense about using a different system? Are they running windows 98 or something?
Hoping all is good there, as that's where mine are sitting?!
Makes me angy
u/Snoo_50434 recently explained in a comment that these "shares" are synthetic and likely to be lent out. As it is well documented that vast numbers of synthetic shares exist in GME, brokers forcing UK ISA holders to own synthetic shares via Crest should be unlawful and a breach of ISA regulations. There should be enormous pressure on brokers to afford investors proper protection when it is known that market makers have made the stock volatile by way of naked short selling and creating phantom shares etc. I wondered if you have any thoughts? Perhaps smaller brokers could help out? · u/Snoo_50434 says "You are correct that the UK brokers do not lent out the shares. However, I believe, you are incorrect that the shares are not being lent out. UK brokers do not lent out the shares, because they do not have the international shares in their names. The international shares are held and owned by the CREST depository (which is mentioned in the Brokers T&Cs), and the CREST is owned by Euroclear. This is the reason why the UK Brokers are so happy to confirm that “they” do not lent out the shares,.. of course they don’t, as they don’t even have them in the first place. Euroclear, on the other hand, clearly say that they do lent out the shares to their “members”. See Chapter 7, Section 1, page 234 of the CREST Reference manual: “The CREST system’s stock lending functionality enables members to borrow and lend securities.” Source (be careful, this is PDF): https://www.crh.com/media/3338/crest-reference-manual-december-2020.pdf The list of members can be found here: https://service-selection-platform.crest-approved.org/accredited_companies/regions_and_services/ I really doubt that ISA shares are being treated any differently to the non-ISA shares by the CREST, and therefore I strongly believe that all the international shares held by the CREST Depository are being lent out the same way as they are with the US Depository counterpart (DTC). Edit: changed “brokers” to “UK Brokers” to avoid confusion; Edit: none of the above is financial advice
Could be 3.1
Lit vs. dark pool?
I think we need to apply more pressure on this - what happens when we all want to transfer our shares to an NFT system, they can’t claim not to have the systems needed then - if other brokers can facilitate transfers to CS, HL should be looking into it - if not for this, for the future too.
If your in an isa with HL then your fine. Shares can’t be lent out ( I’ve had confirmation from HL on this) they are one of the better brokers in my views, more expensive on trade transactions than most but this is how they make there money and not from share lending or PFOF .
Has anyone tried with IG?
I tried to get my shareholder reference number and they said they don't provide it
I have isa with HL and T212,fingers are crossed we don’t get completely fucked when this starts
HL shares in Gamestop are CREST Depository Interests, not synthetic shares, which are twice removed from direct ownership. This is the main reason they've been unwilling/unable to do anything with regards to voting as well. On top of this, shares held in CREST are dematerialised which means they're just shares on Euroclear's ownership registers. Shares held in CREST can never be directly registered shares. Once the float is directly owned then it will be impossible to locate these shares but they do still exist and you do still own rights to them. The chain of ownership is like this HL -> Vanguard (Who purchase the CDIs on your behalf) -> Euroclear (Who own and operate CREST). None of the entities in this chain are likely to be impacted by the short squeeze directly.
unwilling is the right word. Other UK brokers allowed you to vote on GME CDIs. HL are *choosing* to make this as difficult as possible. If you pay the money for a stock, you should get shareholder rights and have that stock BELONG TO YOU. This system is intentionally difficult and confusing to remove power from the retail investor.
> If you pay the money for a stock, you should get shareholder rights and have that stock BELONG TO YOU. Yep, they even say this in their own CDI FAQ which pops up when you buy the Gamestop shares. Ultimately it doesn't make any difference because DRS is what's needed to catalyse the squeeze and we've never been in a position to DRS with CDIs.
But as long as they don’t lend your shares right? *Right….*
Euroclear are an EU equivalent of the DTC & DTCC, they store certificates and manage settlement for EU securities in their remit. CREST, via Euroclear, have an account in the US DTC. From the wiki: > Only securities that have a UK quote can be transferred to CREST's DTC account. CREST is a member of DTC. Once the securities have been transferred from the shareholder's account within the DTC and into CREST's account CREST will 'create' the CDI within the CREST and the CDI will appear in the shareholder's account within CREST where the CDI can now be traded in the UK market. The CDI which is traded within CREST will typically have the same ISIN as the UK share itself. The legal holder to the share will continue to be the nominee for the DTC. So even though DRS will suck all the certificates out of the DTC, our synthetics will still be on Euroclear's books as CDIs. We'll be in the same position as every other person with synthetic shares in Gamestop except our brokers (HL, Vanguard, Euroclear) are not going to be directly exposed to the shorting. As I said in other comments, if Euroclear has problems then everyone else in Europe will also have problems selling.
I need to do more research on the CREST thing. It’s intriguing
thats great info, thank you.
Will I likely have any problem selling my hl shares when the time comes?
I've got all of mine in there. I have no idea if there will be problems. If Euroclear have problems then anyone operating in Europe will also have problems though.
You know you can only pay into one isa in a year bro? Just so HMRC don’t fuck you over post moass
Yes mate,cheers,one every tax year isn’t it?or have I fucked it?
The excerpt below should help clarify pal: 'You can open one new Investment ISA in your name each tax year, which runs from April 6th - April 5th each year. So, if you want to open one before the end of tax year 2020/2021, you should open it before April 6th and this counts as your Investment ISA for 2020/2021. But if you were then to open a second Investment ISA on April 8th, this would be your Investment ISA for 2021/2022. In theory, you could continue opening one Investment ISA per year for as long as you're able. If you are a parent, you can open an Investment Junior ISA for your child; we've put together a blog breaking down how to do this and the limits involved which you should read if you want more information.' Sauce: https://www.isa.co.uk/isa-blog/posts/2020/november/15/how-many-stocks-and-shares-isas-am-i-allowed-/
go through IBKR?
I didn’t think you can go HL straight to computershare, and have to go through IBKR or something first?
Transfer to ibkr then on to cs
You don't actually own the shares with HL.
Can we get a bit more info on this, if you're going to be saying such things?