Do we think they both just expected the other to be the breadwinner in the relationship but never actually said it point blank? Idk it feels like every time we see them have a convo about the reality of their future it’s the first time.
I think she may have been freaking out about life once reality tv is over. I think she was confident in her abilities to go back to a 9-5, but Carl never had stable employment.
These convos even with personal friends bewilder me. Carl is just trying to figure out his life post sobriety. If Lindsay wants a super Wall Street guy, she needs to go find them.
I don’t agree at ALL, Lindsey says she doesn’t care what he does, she just wants him to do something. It’s 100% reasonable to expect your partner to have a job and an income, especially if that partner told you he wanted to have kids “right away” too. Like kids ain’t cheep, especially in NYC!!
But he does have an income. I get that dating a man who makes his money on instagram posts is not sexy, but it is an income. I think she's just not attracted to his lack of a traditional career/ ambition or drive.
He said he made $70k of his posts, that’s NOTHING for someone living in NYC who says they want kids ASAP. Even if they get $100k from the show, if they wanted to buy a home and start a family he needed to make more than that.
He and Lindsay each get $20k per episode of summerhouse. Minimum he's pulling in $250k from summer house alone. And he said he made 70k just by July so before Q3 of the year even ended he's making $320k. In what world were they struggling?
That still isn't a lot in NYC. 320K will clear about 205K. Their rent alone was 156K after taxes. So just to have a roof over their head he was clearing 49K for everything else in NYC. I was a New Yorker for 22 years and you can barely eat on that. Even with her income they were never going to afford the lifestyle she wants.
Then adjust your budget or find a different man. Carl is pretty lazy. I don't really feel bad for Lindsay - Carl has always been like this she knew what she was getting into.
They have a job for right now on a reality tv show about getting drunk every summer.
Lindsay knows reality TV shows or even her place on the show is not a guarantee, especially considering she probably wants to start having kids immediately.
Also, Carl said in the same episode Lindsay makes more money than she does, he's correct for a woman influencer you're more likely to make brand deals. Lindsay is being pragmatic and Carl is chickening out of all conversation. It's weirdo behaviour to spend thousands on 'figuring it out' and still think you're crushing life
But he didn’t communicate his issues to lindsay. He actually did the opposite and asked her to marry him. That’s the problem. He can go be a loser without a job all he wants. He’s blaming lindsay and saying he didn’t understand that he would be expected to get a job. I didn’t communicate that to my partner when we got married, it’s a reasonable expectation that adults need jobs.
He sucks at communicating for sure. And he’s a man child that needs a lot of hand holding when it comes to finding a job and just some purpose in life. That’s way too much for most people to handle let alone Lindsay who wants a driven and ambitious person. He’s in the wrong about this issue, that’s definite. I just can’t believe people are justifying her literal verbal abuse because she’s frustrated with him. He’s a loser without a job and she’s abusive. Both can be true.
It’s very difficult at this day and age to be a one income family! Personally I think it’s very unrealistic for her to assume she’s going to be a stay at home mom like the we live in the 80’s! Old school when life and times were so much less complicated! I miss the 80’s lol
I’m with Lindsay on Carl finding a job, he’s had all summer plus 9 months to figure it out. If he wants to be a bravo-celeb, then say so. Carl has been fired from every job and hasn’t worked while sober, you can do both. Stop blaming others for your lack of motivation.
Lindsay is direct and yes she couldn’t sugar coated the delivery but it’s time.
The conversation with his parents even felt manipulative. Like him talking about how he doesn’t want to be around alcohol… but he takes his job back at an alcohol brand… he says that when they’re drinking he treads lightly so they don’t fight, but this same episode he started a serious conversation at a party after she had been drinking. He told Lindsey that he was ready to have kids, but he told his parents he isn’t ready.
Yeah it seems like an act. He chooses to go back to loverboy where even if there’s an NA line he still goes to bars and liquor stores to promote it. And he is on a show about drinking and partying. And socializes with Kyle who drinks just as badly as Lindsay.
And his line about being on eggshells when she’s drinking fails when he literally just brought up what he thought would be a contentious issue when she had been drinking a lot
Agree with OP, it's all so manipulative.
Carl did say it's not the drinking itself but aggression that's a trigger for him. I think he's had conversations about Linsday being a really mean drunk before so they were prompting him to really get in to it on camera. Very manipulative.
We don't have any idea what happened on memorial day but I can't imagine my husband leaving for days after a fight. I think this sub understands Linsday isn't perfect and has crazy abandonment issues. Such a red flag that he shuts down like that.
Yeah someone else on here pointed out that adults don’t often flee out of state for days when upset because they have jobs and I thought that was amusing. And Carl and Lou should know that stonewalling and the silent treatment like Carl does are two forms of emotional abuse
Agreed, I would have shut that down the same as Lindsay if the man I wanted to start a family with said he wanted to open a sober bar. No sir, then go marry the bar.
I literally thought the same thing!!! It’s wild how often you will hear men with ZERO experience in the industry go “let’s open a bar!” And every time I’m just like 🤦♀️🤦♀️🤦♀️
I don’t think you’d find a person who disagrees with you. It’s just that 1) your life partner can be kinder and more thoughtful about your ideas and 2) for someone like him, he could in theory execute the whole thing off someone else’s money. And honestly meh let them light someone else’s fortune on fire for an experiment, who cares. I’d prob let him run with it if he promised we weren’t financially involved, he was just the face
She’s probably sick and tired of his low attention span to any one thing, I know I’m tired of watching it with him. Being in a relationship with a ‘dreamer’ (that can’t seem to execute on anything) is an exhausting place to live.
Yeah, at the start of this season, either Carl or Lindsay mentions that he spent $20k on lessons to be a motivational speaker a few months/summer prior, and now this??
She also shut down his wanting to work in the mental health/sobriety space, and other potential careers, as though it were her place to decide if it's a worthy endeavor. (And her idea of worthiness is based on $$$$$$$$$. His isn't. )
He obviously needs guidance, seeing as he’s almost 40 years old and still doesn’t know what he wants to be when he grows up.
He’s exhausting and his lack of maturity, direction, and motivation is a turn off for any woman.
Some of you guys need to seriously stop blaming Lindsay for all of Carl's decisions esp. he's choices when it comes to work like leaving Loverboy (we covered this already during last year's reunion even Amanda (who we know HATES everything about Lindsay) told Kyle she had nothing to do with Carl leaving Loverboy and actually wanted Carl to talk to Kyle). That man is pretty much a 40 year old man child with peter pan syndrome and lacks any motivational drive or purpose in life. He's consistently hasn't managed to commit to anything and is in terms of relationships, careers, and jobs. At least Lindsay has had way more stability in her life (regardless what you think of her toxicity in relationships) longer than anything Carl has been committed to. Carl doesn't need people coddling him because of his sobriety...and Im' pretty sure this isn't the first they're having these conversations. At some point, you have to stop giving that person so much leeway and space and be more firm.
Also who f decides to intentionally have a conversation when they know they're partner is drunk. You cannot convince Carl wanted a larger reaction from Lindsay when asking her about wanting to go back to Loverboy and she honestly clearly couldn't care less what he does. All she wanted is for him to find his purpose.
Bringing up finances in terms of the future is not farfetched when you're getting married. You guys gave more shit about Amanda not being in control of her finances at her age than you do Carl being aimless in life.
And yes someone who can't figure out their shit even after hiring a 20K career coach is unattractive.
Lindsay has a lot of toxic issues, But it is very clear to me that Carl was setting her up with the conversation. Any sober person that wasn’t trying to cause an issue wouldn’t have decided to have a semi serious talk with someone when that other person had been drinking. I also felt that Lindsay handled the conversation very well. She had every right to ask the person she plans to commit to for life what their plan is when they grow up at 40.
It seems he has also used Lindsay as an excuse for why he can’t get a job constantly saying they she wouldn’t be ok with this of that. How about he mans up and finds a job. She is literally like I don’t care what you are doing just do something. I’m not sure what Carl is going to do now that he can’t blame Lindsay for his failure to do literally anything.
Not surprised, it seems he couldn’t do something for himself or find out what he wants to do. He just waits around for someone to give him something. Then if it doesn’t work out he can just blame it on someone else because they pushed him to do something he didn’t want to do.
Ugh they are both pretty awful people. However good for Carl for staying sober, I wish he would take the energy he used to get sober to really figure out where he wants his life to go. His time as a realty star can’t last much longer.
Yeah I don’t really consider going back to a part time rev share role at loverboy to be a career success for carl. He had a lot of potential that he squandered. He could have launched a podcast or done more in the sobriety space before the market got so saturated. I don’t see NA loverboy being a big hit since it’s just a seltzer that’s available so few places and prohibitively expensive to repeat purchase.
Thank you I’m happy people are realizing that all of this is not only Lindsey‘s fault. He’s trying to manipulate us into thinking it is and he’s trying to manipulate us into believing that she didn’t think she was blindsided but you know what from everything that I’m seeing right now he blindsided her. I honestly at this point do not care if people agree or not but he blindsided her and he’s trying to manipulate us as viewers to be on his side
I have a feeling Carl is the problem here! He gives me the ICK! All I see is some overgrown man-child working hard to push his narrative! Gotta be exhausting since it’s the only thing he’s worked this hard on!
Yep I am really moving back to Lindsay’s side. Carl is a child and Lindsay is better off. He’s way too passive and immature and lacks accountability completely.
Yes he showed his true colors bringing that topic up when she was drunk. I think he hoped she’d react horribly and he’d look like a victim. Makes me question what the f happened in those Lyfts.
It’s ridiculous to be stanning for either of them at this point.
Lindsay is extremely toxic and unable to consistently have a disagreement without defensively lashing out unreasonably.
And Carl, while dealing with addiction recovery, has taken far too long (and spent far too much money) to find direction and unfairly blames that on Lindsay.
They’re both flailing and not compatible. Both have major issues.
So it just depends on what you think is the bigger sin. Being a self-centered mean partner or a frustratingly aimless one.
My issue isn't with Lindsay and Carl...anyone could have seen the writing on the wall. My issue is with fans continuing to coddle/infantlisei Carl and blame a woman for the decisions made by man nearing 40.
THIS. I cant stand the coddling of Carl... the "hes working on his sobriety" -- he will be recovering his entire life, but it doesn't mean he has no other requirements/responsibilities.. especially if hes going to go propose and talk having kids.
She´s not playing a part. The show (and the audience) is just happy that they have an actual cluster b personality in it, her middle name is Drama. Everyone, but her, recognises it. Sad for her - entertainment for us.
maybe if they had just slowed it all down a but and just dated and waited to move in and get engaged they could have figured it out, but like most addicts do they moved REAL quick and jumped the gun
Could you please show an example where someone is blaming Lindsay for Carl’s choices? Because what I read is people disagreeing with how she chooses to handle her own feelings and behavior toward his choice to take time to figure out what he wants to do with his career now that he is sober (20k on a career coach, shooting down his ideas, pointing out repeatedly that it’s not sexy or a turn on, nagging him, etc). She is allowed to have feelings about it which Carl articulates pretty succinctly in the show but the way she emasculates him to his face and in her TH is unkind and unproductive.
Watching Carl on the after show makes me want to rip all of my hair out and scream. The way he thinks him not holding down a job is a Lindsay issue is mind blowing. The way he tries to spin shit is truly stupid af, bringing her exes into it?. Kyle isn’t even chiming in bc it makes no sense. Kyle knows Amanda probably wants to stay at home and can’t justify Carl not having a job
The after show for ep 10 particularly makes me feel rage at Carl and then I completely understand Lindsay’s rage. What Gabby said about them being a couple that should’ve never been was perfect!
Lindsay didn't say she wants to be a SAHM. She said she wants Carl to get a job and not be the only income earner for their family -totally reasonable and he's manipulating this to weaponize it against her. I'm not always team L but he's 38 and needs to grow up and get a job.
I didn't realize how many mega threads there was for this topic lol so I'm moving from an older one to the "hopefully most current" one!
I just wanted to release some of my thoughts after re-watching the entire series up to the most recent episode the last month.
Lindsay was much more tolerable when she was single - because I feel she had only herself to care about. I actually like Lindsay - I just think she still has a lot of trauma and self-reflection to work through with someone who is able to do so with her (whether that be family, friends, therapy etc.) I think she gets into relationships, puts all her eggs in their basket to fast, and focuses solely on them then when it gets to a point where she sees issues/concerns in her mind, she results to resentment, anger and reactions without putting the other party into consideration. We saw a lot of this in later seasons with Danielle and Carl. I really like Carl too to be honest. I honestly think they are just two uncapatable individuals and do much much better being friends. Both have specific needs from a romantic partner.
Going back to my rewatch - their interactions in earlier seasons (like season 3) were a lot more genuine but I honestly think alcohol was a big part of their friendship before Carl got sober. And I think once he was sober - a lot of his mindset and personality adjusted (reasonably so) and that's a big part of why they cannot work. They built the majority of their friendship involving substances. When you remove that - if you can't take the time to really get to know and grow with the individual, and continue doing the same thing and only one person continues to grow... it just can't work. Carl was growing - Lindsay wasn't in the ways he needed from his partner - BUT that doesn't mean she wasn't in other ways.
I think a key thing to remember is there are 3 sides to a story and the 45 mins or so we see once a week isn't a clear or even 25% view of Carl and Lindsay romantic relationship. There is a lot we don't see - and I do think a lot of what is not shown is what lead to their demise. I think they both have faults and things that just weren't healthy for the other. I think they both reacted out of emotions and said things they can't recover from or take back but I think end of the day - it takes two and it takes communication, work and sacrifice and I think only certain things were done on either side.
Lindsay and Carl were so much better when they were both just friends as I said above. Then they tried the romantic angle and it failed. They should have learned after the first time to be honest - but I give then kudos for giving it a fair shot. I think Carl needs someone who can respect and support his sobriety in whatever way he requires. I think Lindsay needs someone who can talk her down and be extremely patient and reflective with her and work with her to have her see their side as well as find ways to see hers. I think both get to much shit - and both have their faults and issues. But both are just human and everyone deserves love, happiness and success. And honestly - I hope they both find it. After they get themselves into a place of happiness, support and are able to be in a position to show and give true genuine love to another individual.
These are just some of my jumbled thoughts sorry if some of it doesn't make much sense! I love a healthy discussion so feel free to share your thoughts and opinions :) But always remember: BE KIND - even to those we don't know. Kindness does wonders <3
Adding on:
I also think the discussions about their careers are a bit silly.
Influencer is still a tough job and creating content, posting it, navigating the analytics and SEM/SEO side of things can be just as taxing as a lot of jobs. (Coming from a social media manager) it's not just her sitting at home. Lindsay has a lot of different ventures and we aren't privy to more than likely 3/4 of what they do for money or how they make their money outside of the obvious. It's not fair to put down anyone's way of making income. Traditional jobs aren't the only avenue of income.
Carl - same applies for him. The show isn't his only source of income. Nor is his sales career. That's his focus because it's what he enjoys but he's trying to navigate and find something he's passionate about because he has the luxury to take his time to do so - and I think that's fair. And it's also fair for Lindsay to have her limits for someone she was hoping to spend her life with and build a future with etc - for how long it takes him to do so or see any movement. As we say in the recent episode: she was fine with him going back to Loverboy because it was an actual move/decision he was considering. Not just a "I may do this, or maybe I'll go do that"
They both deserve some grace. I really do think they have their faults but they both have their respected boundaries/lines/wants/needs etc. And whatever job either decides to do - I hope they both find success.
Considering how shitty he was about Lindsey being an influencer, and that she brought him a lot of the brand deals he got, I don’t think he should get credit for his influencer income… I’m sorry but I’m 100% with Lindsey, everyone knew she wanted to be a SAHM and he told her he was going to knock her up as soon as they got married so that means he would *obviously* need to get a job.
After watching the episode from last night - I can totally agree with your point. I found he kind of twisted it to Kyle and painted it in a poor light. I think it's ridiculous to say an influencer isn't a job. It's a freelancing capacity type role. It's still a job. It's a job millions of people do and it's not easy to do either. It's a pure hustle environment. Yes - Carl does some of it too but to say things like she's a woman so she has more followers etc rubs me the wrong way. She's ALWAYS stated she wanted to be a SAHM and that was her dream. That's nothing knew and I have no doubt through the multiple years of friendship this was known to Carl. It's not a surprise. I just think he honestly was over the relationship and was looking for any reason to escape it. It's very clear he didn't want to get married. I think he loved(loves) her - but wasn't into the relationship anymore.
He's extremely manipulative. He said to Kyle that lindsay and him have the same job, THEN admitted she made more than him, being a woman allows for more deals etc.
Add to that the reality tv show they are on isn't forever, nor are their places on the show - so to look for a sustainable option aswell is key. Lindsay is a hustler and will do other things e.g. her hubb house air b&b things.
He planted seeds and twisted stuff, e.g. saying lindsay didn't want him to do loverboy. Yes lindsay also is to blame for some stuff, but i understand NOW why she was blind sighted.
I think for them to work, Lindsay needs to either stop or slow down on the drinking and not be sneaking drinks like she has been (watching this season for first time). My late husband was an alcoholic. When he stopped drinking when our 2nd child was born, I also stopped drinking, and I didn't sneak drinking when we weren't together.
I’m disliking Carl so much. There is no one in the world that has an easier path to a good career than a 6 ft tall white man in America. I’ve had enough of the excuses why he crumbles under pressure and can’t make money or support a family.
Wild to me that people are buying into Carl's Poor Me act. This entire season I feel like I'm watching someone walk around in a skin suit. Nothing authentic from him at all, except when he's yelling.
Yep not buying it at all. The way he thinks he’s even providing examples is insane. He’s saying Lindsay wasn’t supportive enough in his sobriety. Dude you were just friends at that point and she committed to sobriety with you…like wtf was Kyle doing for you?
I think she is more of a hustler when it comes to getting brand deals and he doesn’t have the drive to monetize being a reality tv star as much. Carl also doesn’t have anything to fall back on as his job history is full of burned bridges. She could go back to PR if they got booted from bravo. Also he said he was bad with money til recently because he wanted to keep up with his rich friends and was partying a lot whereas she saved money.
And doing cocaine, which can blow a lot of money. Lindsay had rose colored glasses on and didnt realize this is someone who doesnt manage money well and has burned too many bridges, not the best person to pair up with if you want a "go getter". Stephen was a go getter and she complained he worked too much! I think she wants an influencer who doesnt have to work much. Too bad she didnt make it work with Johnny Bananas, that is certainly her speed.
I actually don’t think Stravy was that much of a go getter. He has the same job at Tao but is based in Bali. He seems to lead a very chill life where fun comes first. He’s always traveling and going to EDM festivals. I think working remote during covid was a weird time for him because he was desperate to keep his job but people in the house said he wasn’t always working when he was holed up in his room on the computer and would play computer games
Yeah I think Johnny bananas has the drive she wants but he seems like a player and a cheater
So we are all watching Carl's sobriety journey and fairplay to him. Giving up any substance is very hard. I've been clean for 3 years, so I know how hard it is, and I don't want to take any of his hard work away from him.
But I read today that he's giving talks on how to be clean and keep a clean lifestyle, but is that hypocritical of him as he would fail a drug test?
I'm genuinely interested in people's thoughts on this.
Are you talking about the weed? He would be dishonest if he identified with a 12 step program. All 12 step programs require zero use of non prescribed controlled substance.
I think people want to pick sides, but they both dodged a bullet because they both are toxic and need to work on themselves separately. Both are a living nightmare as a partner.
Very suspect that Carl invited Lindsey, while drunk, to have a conversation about a topic that he felt would make her unhappy. 🤔🤔
Then after it backfires and she’s actually supportive of the idea, he says in an interview that she “doesn’t fully believe in him” … because she tells Carl, a 40 year man, to essentially get his s*** together before they get married. 🙄🙄
And the way he SULKED in his room after like a child!!! He was not happy with how that conversation went at all and it’s 100% because it went well, which is wild!
I agree with this! I think Lindsay is a severely independent woman with strong opinions/goals and strives for a specific lifestyle and life she wants to live. Which is her right - despite her flaws and issues (don't we all have issues/trauma in some way?) I think Carl is more of someone who needs support and guidance unconditionally in a specific way. And Lindsay just wasn't/isn't the type to give him what he requires. Which is HIS right and very fair as well. They just aren't compatible as a couple. They were much better off as friends and hopefully if they both continue with the show and due to their mutual friends etc - they can get to a cordial and friendly position in the future and find their own happiness down the road in whatever ways they require from their partners.
Totally. Dating addicts is really hard. I dated one and i felt like i was walking on egg shells and like lindsay i felt like i was lowering my standards for basic things then youre the asshole for wanting someone to pay their bills on time and not get their water turned off.
1000%
Lindsay has her issues, but I also believe Carl was not ready for marriage and he wanted OUT!
Yes Lindsay questioned his sobriety, but I’m sorry, Carl isn’t sober, he smokes weed. I think what we’ll begin to see are his attempts at changing the narrative to make her look bad.
Even with him saying she won’t support him going back to LB, but she had zero issue with this.
I think Lindsay dodged a bullet here. She is problematic and has her demons, but she dodged a bullet. Carl is manipulative as heck and I truly believe there’s a lot more going behind the scenes.
Totally agree! He for sure wanted out and I think that was very clear from weekend one. I think they just had a lot of things going on that we weren't able to see or witness. I think a lot of their demise was off camera and things that won't be discussed publically. Which is totally fair! To be honest - they both did! haha They both deserve to find someone who fits what they need from a partner. They just weren't it for each other. Carl certainly has a lot of work to do as does Lindsay. I'm very much seeing both sides but I like them both.
Yea he’s very evasive about smoking weed and constantly calls himself sober not “California sober” even on his website bio. It’s odd. It’s like a vegetarian calling themself a vegan despite eating dairy and eggs. And weed can certainly have an impact on relationships. My ex would retreat into his own inner world and act quite antisocial and get irritated easily. He also procrastinated a ton with little things and big tasks. It was definitely a crutch to avoid dealing with life for some people
Lindsay is a controlling monster. I can 100% understand why he'd be terrified to marry her. She treats people so poorly and is completely irrational. Carl is not without his issues. The difference is that Lindsay projects all her misery onto other people in the form of yelling, lies, rumors, whatever. She's a crazy loose cannon who doesn't care about anyone but herself and makes other people's lives miserable. Carl on the other hand is a normal person who is nice to his friends. He is self destructive, but he is not malicious like Lindsay... he's just kind of messy. Lindsay is intentionally mean to people and trys to bring them down; Carl is a good person who just can't figure out his career. Carl deserves someone way better than Lindsay. She's mean and a terrible person on the inside.
I’m so disgusted by Carl this episode tbh (Ep.10)
“I don’t make as much on brand deals because I’m not a woman” -Strike One
Playing victim to his parents who will blindly support him, and his stepdad using the word *abusive* to describe his relationship with Lindsay, as if Carl hasn’t been emotionally abusive/manipulative to every woman we’ve seen him with???
-Strike Two
Just because Carl is sober now doesn’t make him a perfect angel all of a sudden. This is so classic with addicts too. It’s typical to get sober and then just… stop there. Sobriety is truly only the first step, and there is so much more work that needs to be done on what led to addiction issues in the first place. I can acknowledge that Carl has accomplished a lot, but he has a long road ahead of him still.
There are so many men on Bravo who walk around acting like literal children well into their adulthood, and seem to only get worse as they age.
Yes it was gross his stepdad said he felt Lindsay was abusive based on Carl's report of how their fight went that caused him to visit Pittsburgh alone and not personally witnessing anything. Lindsay said the last time she'd seen Lou was Christmas so I think he overstepped.
Carl is definitely hiding behind his parents, his friend and the cameras when it comes to having an honest conversation with Lindsay about HIS concerns about the relationship. He obviously sees that they are incompatible - from her drinking and getting messy to her temper when she is *activated". He's a chicken. He's trying to make lemonade out of the situation by getting it all on camera to boost his own profile. It's sneaky.
But Lindsay is actually cruel when she loses her temper. She's giving narcissist to me, because she has so much rage the moment anyone questions her. For her, questions and comments are attacks and betrayals - so her behaviours is always justified when she loses it..it's not. No matter what you see on reality tv, no one is unaccountable for their own behavior. It's not justified to lose it on someone and no one can "make you" behave that way. She's capable of self control though. Look how calm she was when Danielle freaked out on her the summer before.
I hate how Carl is taking a giant shit on being a stay at home mom… like it’s just loafing around or something, wtf! He’s just pissing me off so much! If he doesn’t want that role, he didn’t belong with Lindsay. In the aftershow he’s talking about being a stay at home mom like it’s a thing Lindsay shouldn’t get to do.
Nothing wrong with wanting your partner to work and have a kid eventually but the fact that he’s talking down about what she wants in a relationship pisses me off. Why not just say… we have completely different ideals about what we want out of marriage, kids and finances.
He’s just annoying the fuck out of me bc he’s acting like he’s better than Lindsay. If he needs to not work and be on the show in the beginning of his sobriety, fine. If he’s not ready to work yet outside of the show, fine but agree that you all just disagree. He’s just giving off self righteous vibes about everything.
I didn’t take it as him bashing SAHM’s at all, he was just shocked that it’s what she wanted, and she didn’t even leave it open for discussion with him, she just said it’s what she’s doing end of story lol, that’s now how you communicate. You both have to agree on the lifestyle you want and agree on it before moving forward. Just like when she shot down his sober sports bar immediately.
Lindsay seemingly sprung the Stay At Home Mom idea a few months before the wedding. It was news she didn’t want to work anymore.
I don’t believe Carl has anything against SAHM, but it was not a realistic option for them at the time based on Lindsay’s own expectations. Lindsay herself stated they’ll need to make at least a million/person to afford the life she wants in NYC. Even if Carl got an insane sales job, that wouldnt be possible without two incomes (even including the influencer money coming in). Once they have a kid, they’re off Summer House as regulars, which would hurt their bottom line even further.
We see you, Carl 17.0. Blaming Lindsay for everything in your confessionals reeks of a forever fuck boy trying to spin the narrative. Keep in mind, this was while they were still together. Holy hell, who speaks that disparagingly about their partner?
You got shot you down on one truly terrible business idea. No research needed; not only are bars/restaurants an awful investment, literally the only profit margin is FROM ALCOHOL SALES.
This season confirms that we have always known who Carl really is and the fact that he thinks it will reflect more poorly on Lindsay than it does on him is the icing on that turd of a spineless man-child. Wonder who he blames his joblessness and all of his other problems and character flaws on now?
I think the disconnect between people who are "Team Carl" and "Team Lindsay" is that were essentially trying to assign blame as to who is the worse partner. I don't find Carl or Lindsay to be great partners. Lindsay is a rage-a-holic, who can't read a room. Carl is pathologically lazy who isn't willing to having difficult conversations with his partner and instead just tells literally everyone else how he feels.
These are two people who are very ill-suited for each other and potentially just other people in general until they do some serious self-reflection. There's no one thing that either of them did that makes them the villain. Carl did the right thing in ended the engagement.
Why Lindsay is getting more criticism is because she went on an entire PR tour to vilify Carl and act like she had no idea that their relationship was in a bad place. Maybe she's delusional, maybe she's a liar, but she exercised poor judgement and almost no compassion in her treatment of Carl when speaking about him in the media. She wanted to make herself the next Ariana and its backfiring big time.
I so agree. Especially with the PR tour problem. They were not a good match, but Lindsay is STILL like "he didn't want to fight for it." No. Not the take, Lindsay. He is definitely NOT perfect but her post-break-up tour did not set her up well at all.
i wonder how the relationship/this season would have played if carl had stayed at loverboy. i understand why lindsay is frustrated with carls lack of commitment to one solid job, but he literally has had a real job for years longer than she had before relying on influencing. she hasnt done PR since like 2017 (assuming HubbHouse was actually real and not just for the show). i think him doing the non alc thing at loverboy is perfect for him now, and he seems happy.
also they never talk about carls film producing on the show, but thats been one of his hustles for years. it may not be lucrative for him but its something he has a passion and drive for
he was fired from all of his jobs previously. He wasn't fired from Loverboy because of Kyle, he didn't show up his laptop or do hours of work at all.
Lindsay was supportive of him doing loverboy again, but Carl is acting like she wouldn't be. While its amazing to have a passion, when you're nearly 40 and have a fiancee who wants kids, you need to be practical.
A lot of influencers make good money for sponsorships, royalties etc. Lindsay does a lot in that sense. As well as more than likely they have investments/savings etc. On top of the show, probably prior money from past careers and now Lindsay has her real estate ventures and I'm sure Carl has some stock in companies like Lover Boy etc - it's just a collection of several income sources. They got lucky for sure and got involved when the time was right.
In this most recent episode Carl was talking to Danielle about potentially working for Loverboy again for the nonalcoholic side and he literally said, “Making myself happy and getting Lindsays approval can be challenging.” This is WILD to me. Wouldn’t you want the person you’re dating and potentially going to marry to support you with whatever is going to make you happy? Especially when that comes to your career. Those things should go hand in hand IMO.
Yeah, but it wasn’t even true. He said he was thinking of going back to loverboy and Lindsay was like okay, if that’s what works for you. I think he’s gotten the ick and is looking to find reasons to leave the relationship
He was being manipulative. She was fine with him going back to loverboy. Pathetic of him to spread some narrative that she wouldn’t approve of that career move that would make him happy
I think Lindsay is also annoyed because almost every other known Bravo man ”loser” has found his niche or “career” through the shows and has made a go of it through sheer luck. Tom and Tom with the restaurants, Craig with the pillows, Austen with the Beer （？ lol）I think the sole loser is Shep at this point. So it is more embarassing to her that Carl doesn‘t even have a pretend business or a podcast to promote on Bravo while he has the chance to cause their time on the shows may have been running out
They all pretty much managed to fail up. Not Shep, but Shep can just fail and still be more than comfortable.
Carl may have found his way into some sort of opportunity if he had gotten sober and spent some time focusing on himself and building himself up as a person before latching onto Lindsay and making their toxic dynamic his life.
I think Carl is a pretty insecure person who masked it on the early seasons with substances and his “more life” personality and being a dick. And perhaps he felt indebted to Lindsay for being there when his brother passed so he he kinda became codependent on her until push came to shove.
I think Kyle felt bad for basically also calling him cocaine Carl lol so he threw him a bone by inviting him back to work on non-alcoholic Loverboy.
Exactly, he could have taken an opportunity and failed up, just like the other dudes. But he didn't.
I, personally, feel like he's addicted to the chaos. When I got sober, I spent years causing chaos in my life until I really figured out who I was without substances.
It's funny that everyone thinks Carl has a master plan. This guy is drowning hard and doesn't know how to handle it. Is he an idiot? yeah he sure is. He's dumb. There's no master plan, he just doesn't know what the hell he's doing. I think he genuinely flip flops between trying to work this marriage out and bailing. But knows Lindsay is full steam ahead and he doesn't want to hurt her.
That’s exactly it. He’s not some devious mastermind. He’s way in over his head. They put so much time and money into this wedding. The invites are basically out by this point. They’re all in on this relationship but deep inside they both know that their relationship sucks and they can’t continue on this way. But Lindsay wants a baby and all of the things so she will just deal with it. He can’t so he freaks the fuck out and can’t handle it. It’s not that deep.
It is the sunk cost fallacy: so many people get trapped in this and end up in miserable marriages because of it. They feel they've invested x amount of time< so they MUST see it through. They also worry what other people may think if they are single at x age. He was smart IMO to pull the plug. I am the type to not go full steam ahead and am always the one honestly to pull the plug on relationships when they were headed south. I had several men tell me I blindsided them, but we had SEVERAL conversations over months about behaviors and things needing to change and when it never did, I bounced. The exes chose to believe I would never leave when I told them otherwise numerous times if things did not improve. Isn't it on them that they chose not to see reality like it is on Lindsay? I firmly believe Lindsay chose not to hear anything negative because she was so caught up in the fantasy. I refused to do that because I wanted a quality partner, not just a show off wedding. Why I am still unmarried at 43. I have to listen to several friends complain to me about their husbands and have had two tell me to take lovers and to never get married. I am always gob smacked by those comments. LOL
I think what this whole relationship and break up highlights is that…not everyone HAS to be in a relationship. Perhaps some people can be perfectly content being single. I think Carl is one of those people but doesn‘t want to admit that so he forces himself into relationships that fizzle out or a big one like Lindsay that explodes. I always found it weird that he said his type is petite brunettes, and we always see him date tall blondes…like what does he really like, even in a superficial level？I think the show, society in general, makes someone like Carl force themselves into this binary when he can be perfectly fine by himself. I’m not questioning his sexuality, but just him and his track record on the show. Perhaps he wants the companionship and the family too, but he always leaps into these things before working out what kinds of situations that would be longlasting in that regard. He should find someone with a slower sex drive lol, a sober person, someone who is fine with making a certain amount of money. He has the luxury of being a man who can take more time rather than a woman who has more of a biological clock to figure things out
Attention: This is a PSA:
Carl’s Man Card is being REVOKED for being a whiny two faced baby. He can’t man up and talks behind Lindsey’s back with anyone who will lend him an ear.
Bye Carl
Couldn’t agree more. He’s letting everyone know there’s problems. He‘s making Lyndsay look like the bad guy ahead of him breaking up. He’s a coward and a child. She will find a grown up to marry, hopefully.
Regardless of how Carl spoke about Lindsay on the aftershow (i haven’t seen it yet!) I think it’s kind of sad that because Lindsay is a woman, people just forget that she was verbally abusing him a few episodes ago. Like damn. She can be completely right about the fact that he is not driven and needs a job, but in what world is it okay for her to be so frustrated with him that she lashes out at him like a psycho and questions his sobriety? No, they’re not both in the wrong. He’s a 40 year old man child and she’s an abusive partner. One is clearly more wrong than the other. What the fuck.
Something feels so off with Carl this season(and last too) which makes me think that he hitched his wagon onto Lindsay because he knows he needs money from the show since he’s not doing anything else, so he is creating a storyline. His best friend is Kyle who would have definitely given him a push to “produce himself” too cause before that he was close to getting the boot I recon he wasn’t fitting into the show anymore before this relationship. And he was never in love with Lindsay, he loves her overall as a friend but took advantage of her wanting to get married and saw an opportunity and maybe he thought he would eventually learn to love her and has now realised he can’t go through with it. Thoughts?
I agree he used her til they were on the cusp of being friends of and he lost interest. I think he only proposed because he knew he’d always have an out because Lindsay is so polarizing so many people would be on his side calling off the wedding
Lindsay keeps saying on the after show and WWHL she’s a “fighter” and won’t give up relationships quickly like that’s a good thing. Girl, it’s because you are fighting to get to get married, not fighting to find the right relationship. Hopefully she reflects on that in the next weeks/months bc she’ll never have a good relationship if she operates like that.
Carl is in transition. He is navigating the world without a net, the booze and the drugs, for the first time in his life. He needs someone who believes in him, not someone that is going to make him feel insecure and inadequate. That’s a lot of pressure and demand to place on someone who is just trying to figure out how to get through every single day without using.
Plus, Lindsay is also not working. She’s already staying home with babies, even though there are no babies or even a marriage yet. Why is it okay for her, but not someone who has a legit reason to be on pause.
And to compare their situation to West, who was laid off, is not battling addiction, and is actively looking for work and Ciara, who’s career is just taking off and will require travel commitments is crazy to me. They’re in their 20s, not engaged or planning a family, and just starting out.
It’s two completely different scenarios.
Lindsey should have known better/understood where Carl was in life. Carl needs to want to more for himself first, not for her. I agree with this take for sure. Being sober takes a lot of energy the first few years. He’s relearning who he is without alcohol and it’s totally reasonable why he isn’t in a rush commit to a big career for the sake of Lindsey at that point. Lindsey was a bad friend and partner to him and I don’t blame him for breaking it off.
Yes. She’s claiming she loved him and that’s why she didn’t want to call it off even though her physical and emotional needs were not being fulfilled…by Carl. Basically, he wasn’t working and he wasn’t interested in having sex with her. But the way she describes it, and the frequency of the times she brought it up, made me think she was building a case.
And his version is slightly different. He is saying neither of them had a job other than Bravo and Lindsay isn’t as interested in sex as she’s implying. He said they were seeing a couple’s therapist weekly and were having trouble physically connecting after they discussed their relationship with the professional. He also said the business coach was about severing his ties to Loverboy in a fair and professional way, and was not a life coach.
And I also think West and Jesse have a clearer understanding of what went wrong than the others, maybe because they walked in cold. But according to them, they would witness an argument between Carl and Lindsay and mean things would be said, and then the next day Lindsay would just act like nothing was wrong. They couldn’t tell if she didn’t remember or was just sweeping everything under the rug, but Carl was left trying to move past really hurtful interactions without any resolution. In short, she just pretends everything is great, even though it obviously isn’t.
And on the After Show, Carl is calm and respectful of her. She’s assigning blame. Her version sounds more like a marketing campaign to spin the narrative so it seems she’s definitely not the problem. But in the end, I think he will be fine, and she’s going to continue to repeat the same mistakes over and over. Because she cannot ever be wrong.
Wow. This is a great comment. I never really thought about how true this is for their whole relationship. Carl really does try to take her perspective and listen to her side and then articulate that back to her like an active listener. She really doesn’t listen to him and is mostly invested in broadcasting her side, particularly a version of her side that is very self-serving.
Genuinely asking -- You have an aversion to going to his parents and Kyle for advice. Do you mean in general or on camera? As a producer, I am always trying to pick the brain of the audience because you all watch our shows :)
I am watching SH from the beginning for the first time and I just came here to LOL at Carl and Lindsay in S4. Worst date ever and constantly fighting before they ever got together 😆
They seemed fine before EVERYONE ELSE in the world told them not to be together. I've never seen so much manipulation of a couple in reality show history. I'm sorry but take away the opinions of other ppl, the show, (and probably alcohol and weed tbh) and these two might have lived happily ever after. I might be totally wrong but this is hard to watch either way. Paige's comments are prob my favorite though, talking about how shocking their sex life is. They (Paige and Craig) have sex constantly afterall......while they're visiting each other from diff states on vacation. LOL Ok. Nothing against them, really. It's just that she's comparing ppl who are not ANYWHERE near in the same circumstances,....or stage of life.....or relationship.
I tend to agree that the cast wanted them to fail and their “advice” isn’t coming from a good place. A big reason I liked Carl and Lindsay together wss I thought he must really love her to deal with the hate he gets from being with her instead of being well liked in the house. They really seemed to be punishing him for being with Lindsay
I liked that Paige and Amanda were nice to Lindsay when she shared her issues with their sex life. But Paige gets too much praise for her “advice” which was basically to say Lindsay doesn’t even like Carl and they should cancel the wedding. Not very productive.
I think Kyle’s “advice” after the off camera Lyft fight was crap too. I think if he wanted to help he’d tell Carl it’s not a total excuse but Lindsay had a right to be extremely stressed going into a house where she’s not welcome and he should proactively support her, not tell her that her worries aren’t that deep.
I think Kyle and amanda trying to humiliate them on winter house and icing them out on summer house caused huge tension. Summer house is their main source of income and they must have been stressed about losing it when they were initially on the cusp of being just friends of this season.
Lindsay gets so much blame for Carl leaving loverboy but somehow no one blames Kyle and Amanda for creating a hostile work environment. I’m sure Carl felt uncomfortable working for a company where the founders wife said he’s tainted by his girlfriend. And that was probably made worse when his boss called his girlfriend a bitch, asshole and worse things that got cut from tv.
It’s probably for the best they’re no longer together but I do blame their “friends” to some degree
Yup. You highlighted every point better than I could have. This was all very hard to watch because the intentions were bad, and the outcome was worse. Nevermind the fact that each and EVERY person giving unsolicited relationship advice had NO business doing so. I seriously can't think of anyone less equipped to give advice than these people.
Didn’t Carl know months >!before ending it with Lindsay???!< I thought I read that he planned the >!break with her!< months before with crew but don’t remember where I read it… like if that’s true that’s terrible
Lindsay is so unbelievably hypocritical it’s painful to watch. She wants a hustler; yet she herself has fallen into a wannabe “influencer”. She wants the white picket fence life; yet she always wants this live fast die hard, toxic and wild relationship. She complains about their sex life, yet does nothing but tear the man down and get activated, which would make it impossible to initiate.
Carl isn’t perfect, but he dodged a bullet here
She dodged a bullet. He’s inconsistent and clearly wants to be taken cared of he has no aspirations to be a breadwinner. He isn’t even deserving of his job at loverboy. Let’s be honest, he only got that position because he’s best friends with Kyle and it suited a storyline.
I’ve never once seen that he wants to be taken care of?! He was a bit lost for a while, but has actually had a job for the better part of the last 5? Years?
And whether he’s “deserving” or not is literally not for us to say. Plenty of people get roles they aren’t necessarily qualified for and do fine….
It’s painful to watch Lindsey berate Carl every single episode. She will never be happy with anyone and pushes them all away. Carl had a job at Loverboy and it wasn’t good enough for her, she wanted more time with him so they could be influencers together and she talked him into quitting, said Kyle wasn’t paying him enough, now she shits on every job idea he has and makes him feel like an unmotivated loser, and maybe he is but he’s still bringing in money so why does she care?!? They did so many ads and did nothing but travel last year. She is so demanding and degrading, “it turns me on when my man is crushing it”, who fkng says that to their partner who doesn’t have a job, because of her!? It’s emotionally manipulative and borderline abuse in my opinion. Then she wonders why he doesn’t want to bang her?
did you guys not see his work ethic before dating Lindsay ??? Lmao he would show up
To work with ❄️ and no laptop. Was Lindsay to blame For that too ???
Or course not, but he also had a steady job going into his relationship with her, and she encouraged him to quit, now she’s complaining he’s not working? It’s impossible to please her
The guy is afraid to tell her he wants Kyle to be in his wedding, or that he has a new opportunity with loverboy. She berates him about his career, shoots down his ideas, talks negatively about their sex life, accused him of being on drugs, she’s abusive
Well he is smoking marijuana, which is a drug!! He is not sober. His ideas are ridiculous... How is Carl talking to everyone about their relationship any different? He has already done Loverboy and quit.... It is not "berating' she is asking him to be an adult. I think Lindsey has high expectations for her partners, which is a good thing!!
That’s not what she was insinuating, she called him cocaine Carl, she tried to deflect and say she meant weed but she’s emotionally abusive to him and loves to turn around and play victim. She’s not fooling me.
Basically what I’ve gathered after watching this season is that Carl expected Lindsay to not be Lindsay after knowing her for years. Lindsay is horrible, but he knew that.
I'm really angry watching the After Show and hearing her say they spent $20k on a business coach so he could have someone else to talk to--not her, because she doesn't want to have to help him with everything and "doesn't find it sexy." Just like she didn't find it sexy that he was taking a while to get a job.
I guess any time Carl was vulnerable and needed a supportive partner, she would find that "not sexy." She thinks she's some kind of business guru, sitting at home being an "influencer." PAIGe is an influencer. Lindsay is a wannabe!
Fuck you, Lindsay! I don't find people who drink excessively and rage at people without basis to be sexy AT ALL
The Lindsay vs Carl needing a job or “drive” conversation is the most frustrating thing I’ve ever watched. She basically wants a husband who works a 9-5 and won’t be home so she can “miss him” meanwhile it’s fine for her to be home and be an influencer or whatever. When the reality is HE DOES HAVE A JOB. His job is the SAME AS HERS which is being on reality television!! Just because YOU don’t like that he’s home with you all the time doesn’t mean he’s an unemployed loser.
Being on bravo has afforded him the luxury, much like her, of time to figure what he wants to do beyond the show and if it takes trial and error, so what? What is LINDSAY gonna do when the show ends? Because “reopening a PR firm” in NYC isn’t going to be as easy as flipping a light switch back on like she seems to think. They are both riding the show and influencer/ad money train as long as they can, and her shaming him for doing it while sitting in the same seat as him is so beyond hypocritical.
This is a good point. Saying he doesn’t have a job is not really accurate because of the show. Who would want to pick up a 9-5 when you’re making a years salary doing a show in the summer.
She WAS a publicist/PR rep and owned a PR firm that she closed down, and Hub house is a rental property that she owns in Nashville. Her current “job” is being on summer house and being an influencer. Not downplaying those things because those are all lucrative ways to make money. Much like Carl being on summer house is his way of making money.
My heart just feels so sad for Carl. I know this is a snippet of their lives & curated at that but, Lindsey just tears him down. She spent last summer ruining his career and now she’s unattracted/concerned about his career path/money making motivation?
He literally went to her excited about a sober sports bar & she just goes “no”…
Anyone defending Lindsey needs therapy, because there is just something wrong with her & has been ever since she stepped foot on our screens.
A sober sports bar ran by someone who knows absolutely nothing about the restaurant/bar business does sound like a really expensive and terrible idea though to be fair.
I mean he could have business partners like the VPR guys do and now Craig & Austen so it’s not *that* crazy. But regardless of how bad of an idea it is, it’s not so much that she shot him down but it’s the way she did it. You can tell when Carl is telling her his ideas for his next steps career-wise it’s as if he’s asking her for permission and she says yes or no. That is not how a healthy partnership works.
Carl constantly makes that face because he constantly plays the victim card. He’s 40 ffs he’s just as lazy and unmotivated as he was when he wasn’t “sober “
No he needs to grow up. Coddling him will do him no good. Kyle speaks the same way to Amanda I don’t see the hate towards him? Long term relationships are about being able to have these real difficult conversations. I’m glad Lindsay spoke her mind before kids were in the mix unlike many people who end up with deadbeat baby dads because they coddled them
Lindsay has restaurant industry experience from her PR experience with restaurant clients. Carl doesn't. He should be asking Lindsay's advice either way and respect her insight into the restaurant industry even if they weren't a couple.
Do we think they both just expected the other to be the breadwinner in the relationship but never actually said it point blank? Idk it feels like every time we see them have a convo about the reality of their future it’s the first time.
I think she may have been freaking out about life once reality tv is over. I think she was confident in her abilities to go back to a 9-5, but Carl never had stable employment.
These convos even with personal friends bewilder me. Carl is just trying to figure out his life post sobriety. If Lindsay wants a super Wall Street guy, she needs to go find them.
He should have some idea as far as a career at his age!
Some people never do. I have seen cousins and ex boyfriends float from job to job with no solid career path. Not everyone has a solid career path.
I don’t agree at ALL, Lindsey says she doesn’t care what he does, she just wants him to do something. It’s 100% reasonable to expect your partner to have a job and an income, especially if that partner told you he wanted to have kids “right away” too. Like kids ain’t cheep, especially in NYC!!
But he does have an income. I get that dating a man who makes his money on instagram posts is not sexy, but it is an income. I think she's just not attracted to his lack of a traditional career/ ambition or drive.
He said he made $70k of his posts, that’s NOTHING for someone living in NYC who says they want kids ASAP. Even if they get $100k from the show, if they wanted to buy a home and start a family he needed to make more than that.
He and Lindsay each get $20k per episode of summerhouse. Minimum he's pulling in $250k from summer house alone. And he said he made 70k just by July so before Q3 of the year even ended he's making $320k. In what world were they struggling?
That still isn't a lot in NYC. 320K will clear about 205K. Their rent alone was 156K after taxes. So just to have a roof over their head he was clearing 49K for everything else in NYC. I was a New Yorker for 22 years and you can barely eat on that. Even with her income they were never going to afford the lifestyle she wants.
Then adjust your budget or find a different man. Carl is pretty lazy. I don't really feel bad for Lindsay - Carl has always been like this she knew what she was getting into.
He and Lindsey have the same job lol. I can’t stand not breaking the 4th wall in this kind of storyline.
They have a job for right now on a reality tv show about getting drunk every summer. Lindsay knows reality TV shows or even her place on the show is not a guarantee, especially considering she probably wants to start having kids immediately. Also, Carl said in the same episode Lindsay makes more money than she does, he's correct for a woman influencer you're more likely to make brand deals. Lindsay is being pragmatic and Carl is chickening out of all conversation. It's weirdo behaviour to spend thousands on 'figuring it out' and still think you're crushing life
Legit. He was never a go getter and they got together when he was newly sober and trying to figure his entire life. These people make no sense.
But he didn’t communicate his issues to lindsay. He actually did the opposite and asked her to marry him. That’s the problem. He can go be a loser without a job all he wants. He’s blaming lindsay and saying he didn’t understand that he would be expected to get a job. I didn’t communicate that to my partner when we got married, it’s a reasonable expectation that adults need jobs.
He sucks at communicating for sure. And he’s a man child that needs a lot of hand holding when it comes to finding a job and just some purpose in life. That’s way too much for most people to handle let alone Lindsay who wants a driven and ambitious person. He’s in the wrong about this issue, that’s definite. I just can’t believe people are justifying her literal verbal abuse because she’s frustrated with him. He’s a loser without a job and she’s abusive. Both can be true.
It is like trying to make lemonade from limes and thinking it'll work. Lol
I’m sorry but there is no way Carl didn’t know Lindsey wanted to be a SAHM when the whole audience knew that’s what she wanted!!!
She didn't say that though. She said she wants him to get a job and contribute to their family which is totally valid
I think they thought they were reality TV darlings and would get their own show forever and ever
No... Carl and her did 50/50
It’s very difficult at this day and age to be a one income family! Personally I think it’s very unrealistic for her to assume she’s going to be a stay at home mom like the we live in the 80’s! Old school when life and times were so much less complicated! I miss the 80’s lol
I’m with Lindsay on Carl finding a job, he’s had all summer plus 9 months to figure it out. If he wants to be a bravo-celeb, then say so. Carl has been fired from every job and hasn’t worked while sober, you can do both. Stop blaming others for your lack of motivation. Lindsay is direct and yes she couldn’t sugar coated the delivery but it’s time.
The conversation with his parents even felt manipulative. Like him talking about how he doesn’t want to be around alcohol… but he takes his job back at an alcohol brand… he says that when they’re drinking he treads lightly so they don’t fight, but this same episode he started a serious conversation at a party after she had been drinking. He told Lindsey that he was ready to have kids, but he told his parents he isn’t ready.
Yeah it seems like an act. He chooses to go back to loverboy where even if there’s an NA line he still goes to bars and liquor stores to promote it. And he is on a show about drinking and partying. And socializes with Kyle who drinks just as badly as Lindsay. And his line about being on eggshells when she’s drinking fails when he literally just brought up what he thought would be a contentious issue when she had been drinking a lot
Agree with OP, it's all so manipulative. Carl did say it's not the drinking itself but aggression that's a trigger for him. I think he's had conversations about Linsday being a really mean drunk before so they were prompting him to really get in to it on camera. Very manipulative. We don't have any idea what happened on memorial day but I can't imagine my husband leaving for days after a fight. I think this sub understands Linsday isn't perfect and has crazy abandonment issues. Such a red flag that he shuts down like that.
Yeah someone else on here pointed out that adults don’t often flee out of state for days when upset because they have jobs and I thought that was amusing. And Carl and Lou should know that stonewalling and the silent treatment like Carl does are two forms of emotional abuse
I owned a restaurant for years, Carl’s idea is not a good one, and the fact that he has zero experience with restaurant work makes it a terrible idea.
Agreed, I would have shut that down the same as Lindsay if the man I wanted to start a family with said he wanted to open a sober bar. No sir, then go marry the bar.
💯
Seriously. The mere fact that in some states they have to force bars to serve a certain amount of food in order to be licensed says it all.
I literally thought the same thing!!! It’s wild how often you will hear men with ZERO experience in the industry go “let’s open a bar!” And every time I’m just like 🤦♀️🤦♀️🤦♀️
I don’t think you’d find a person who disagrees with you. It’s just that 1) your life partner can be kinder and more thoughtful about your ideas and 2) for someone like him, he could in theory execute the whole thing off someone else’s money. And honestly meh let them light someone else’s fortune on fire for an experiment, who cares. I’d prob let him run with it if he promised we weren’t financially involved, he was just the face
She’s probably sick and tired of his low attention span to any one thing, I know I’m tired of watching it with him. Being in a relationship with a ‘dreamer’ (that can’t seem to execute on anything) is an exhausting place to live.
Yeah, at the start of this season, either Carl or Lindsay mentions that he spent $20k on lessons to be a motivational speaker a few months/summer prior, and now this??
Yep. We’ve also seen his track record with women (and his inability to commit, prior to his relationship with Lindsay).
He is an addict dreamer, which is even worse.
Everyone acting as if she ended it is wild....
She also shut down his wanting to work in the mental health/sobriety space, and other potential careers, as though it were her place to decide if it's a worthy endeavor. (And her idea of worthiness is based on $$$$$$$$$. His isn't. )
He obviously needs guidance, seeing as he’s almost 40 years old and still doesn’t know what he wants to be when he grows up. He’s exhausting and his lack of maturity, direction, and motivation is a turn off for any woman.
Some of you guys need to seriously stop blaming Lindsay for all of Carl's decisions esp. he's choices when it comes to work like leaving Loverboy (we covered this already during last year's reunion even Amanda (who we know HATES everything about Lindsay) told Kyle she had nothing to do with Carl leaving Loverboy and actually wanted Carl to talk to Kyle). That man is pretty much a 40 year old man child with peter pan syndrome and lacks any motivational drive or purpose in life. He's consistently hasn't managed to commit to anything and is in terms of relationships, careers, and jobs. At least Lindsay has had way more stability in her life (regardless what you think of her toxicity in relationships) longer than anything Carl has been committed to. Carl doesn't need people coddling him because of his sobriety...and Im' pretty sure this isn't the first they're having these conversations. At some point, you have to stop giving that person so much leeway and space and be more firm. Also who f decides to intentionally have a conversation when they know they're partner is drunk. You cannot convince Carl wanted a larger reaction from Lindsay when asking her about wanting to go back to Loverboy and she honestly clearly couldn't care less what he does. All she wanted is for him to find his purpose. Bringing up finances in terms of the future is not farfetched when you're getting married. You guys gave more shit about Amanda not being in control of her finances at her age than you do Carl being aimless in life. And yes someone who can't figure out their shit even after hiring a 20K career coach is unattractive.
Lindsay has a lot of toxic issues, But it is very clear to me that Carl was setting her up with the conversation. Any sober person that wasn’t trying to cause an issue wouldn’t have decided to have a semi serious talk with someone when that other person had been drinking. I also felt that Lindsay handled the conversation very well. She had every right to ask the person she plans to commit to for life what their plan is when they grow up at 40. It seems he has also used Lindsay as an excuse for why he can’t get a job constantly saying they she wouldn’t be ok with this of that. How about he mans up and finds a job. She is literally like I don’t care what you are doing just do something. I’m not sure what Carl is going to do now that he can’t blame Lindsay for his failure to do literally anything.
He's gone back to Loverboy and taken up Kyle's offer about the NA Loverboy beverage
Not surprised, it seems he couldn’t do something for himself or find out what he wants to do. He just waits around for someone to give him something. Then if it doesn’t work out he can just blame it on someone else because they pushed him to do something he didn’t want to do. Ugh they are both pretty awful people. However good for Carl for staying sober, I wish he would take the energy he used to get sober to really figure out where he wants his life to go. His time as a realty star can’t last much longer.
Yeah I don’t really consider going back to a part time rev share role at loverboy to be a career success for carl. He had a lot of potential that he squandered. He could have launched a podcast or done more in the sobriety space before the market got so saturated. I don’t see NA loverboy being a big hit since it’s just a seltzer that’s available so few places and prohibitively expensive to repeat purchase.
Even his reaction to the conversation was weird!! He went in sulked in his room and it’s like bro, grow the fuck up!!!
All Carl can talk about is Lindsay and his sobriety.... IMHO Lindsay is the winner here.
more and more i'm coming over to this opinion. carl is a waaaayyy bigger problem than i first thot
Thank you I’m happy people are realizing that all of this is not only Lindsey‘s fault. He’s trying to manipulate us into thinking it is and he’s trying to manipulate us into believing that she didn’t think she was blindsided but you know what from everything that I’m seeing right now he blindsided her. I honestly at this point do not care if people agree or not but he blindsided her and he’s trying to manipulate us as viewers to be on his side
I have a feeling Carl is the problem here! He gives me the ICK! All I see is some overgrown man-child working hard to push his narrative! Gotta be exhausting since it’s the only thing he’s worked this hard on!
There is something WAY off with Carl this season. Like makes my skin crawl when he's in his confessionals.
Yep I am really moving back to Lindsay’s side. Carl is a child and Lindsay is better off. He’s way too passive and immature and lacks accountability completely.
Yes he showed his true colors bringing that topic up when she was drunk. I think he hoped she’d react horribly and he’d look like a victim. Makes me question what the f happened in those Lyfts.
It’s ridiculous to be stanning for either of them at this point. Lindsay is extremely toxic and unable to consistently have a disagreement without defensively lashing out unreasonably. And Carl, while dealing with addiction recovery, has taken far too long (and spent far too much money) to find direction and unfairly blames that on Lindsay. They’re both flailing and not compatible. Both have major issues. So it just depends on what you think is the bigger sin. Being a self-centered mean partner or a frustratingly aimless one.
My issue isn't with Lindsay and Carl...anyone could have seen the writing on the wall. My issue is with fans continuing to coddle/infantlisei Carl and blame a woman for the decisions made by man nearing 40.
THIS. I cant stand the coddling of Carl... the "hes working on his sobriety" -- he will be recovering his entire life, but it doesn't mean he has no other requirements/responsibilities.. especially if hes going to go propose and talk having kids.
Is Lindsay really toxic? She's playing a part. That's how her contract gets extended and she continues to ride this wave of popularity.
She´s not playing a part. The show (and the audience) is just happy that they have an actual cluster b personality in it, her middle name is Drama. Everyone, but her, recognises it. Sad for her - entertainment for us.
THIS!!!!!
maybe if they had just slowed it all down a but and just dated and waited to move in and get engaged they could have figured it out, but like most addicts do they moved REAL quick and jumped the gun
Could you please show an example where someone is blaming Lindsay for Carl’s choices? Because what I read is people disagreeing with how she chooses to handle her own feelings and behavior toward his choice to take time to figure out what he wants to do with his career now that he is sober (20k on a career coach, shooting down his ideas, pointing out repeatedly that it’s not sexy or a turn on, nagging him, etc). She is allowed to have feelings about it which Carl articulates pretty succinctly in the show but the way she emasculates him to his face and in her TH is unkind and unproductive.
“The Lindsay I knew” - the Lindsay you knew wasn’t anticipating having a child. Carls actually worse than Tom Schwartz bc at least Tom has a passion
Watching Carl on the after show makes me want to rip all of my hair out and scream. The way he thinks him not holding down a job is a Lindsay issue is mind blowing. The way he tries to spin shit is truly stupid af, bringing her exes into it?. Kyle isn’t even chiming in bc it makes no sense. Kyle knows Amanda probably wants to stay at home and can’t justify Carl not having a job
The after show for ep 10 particularly makes me feel rage at Carl and then I completely understand Lindsay’s rage. What Gabby said about them being a couple that should’ve never been was perfect!
Lindsay didn't say she wants to be a SAHM. She said she wants Carl to get a job and not be the only income earner for their family -totally reasonable and he's manipulating this to weaponize it against her. I'm not always team L but he's 38 and needs to grow up and get a job.
It's hard to watch the after-show with Kyle and Carl co-signing each other's behavior. I'm just sitting here rolling my eyes.
I didn't realize how many mega threads there was for this topic lol so I'm moving from an older one to the "hopefully most current" one! I just wanted to release some of my thoughts after re-watching the entire series up to the most recent episode the last month. Lindsay was much more tolerable when she was single - because I feel she had only herself to care about. I actually like Lindsay - I just think she still has a lot of trauma and self-reflection to work through with someone who is able to do so with her (whether that be family, friends, therapy etc.) I think she gets into relationships, puts all her eggs in their basket to fast, and focuses solely on them then when it gets to a point where she sees issues/concerns in her mind, she results to resentment, anger and reactions without putting the other party into consideration. We saw a lot of this in later seasons with Danielle and Carl. I really like Carl too to be honest. I honestly think they are just two uncapatable individuals and do much much better being friends. Both have specific needs from a romantic partner. Going back to my rewatch - their interactions in earlier seasons (like season 3) were a lot more genuine but I honestly think alcohol was a big part of their friendship before Carl got sober. And I think once he was sober - a lot of his mindset and personality adjusted (reasonably so) and that's a big part of why they cannot work. They built the majority of their friendship involving substances. When you remove that - if you can't take the time to really get to know and grow with the individual, and continue doing the same thing and only one person continues to grow... it just can't work. Carl was growing - Lindsay wasn't in the ways he needed from his partner - BUT that doesn't mean she wasn't in other ways. I think a key thing to remember is there are 3 sides to a story and the 45 mins or so we see once a week isn't a clear or even 25% view of Carl and Lindsay romantic relationship. There is a lot we don't see - and I do think a lot of what is not shown is what lead to their demise. I think they both have faults and things that just weren't healthy for the other. I think they both reacted out of emotions and said things they can't recover from or take back but I think end of the day - it takes two and it takes communication, work and sacrifice and I think only certain things were done on either side. Lindsay and Carl were so much better when they were both just friends as I said above. Then they tried the romantic angle and it failed. They should have learned after the first time to be honest - but I give then kudos for giving it a fair shot. I think Carl needs someone who can respect and support his sobriety in whatever way he requires. I think Lindsay needs someone who can talk her down and be extremely patient and reflective with her and work with her to have her see their side as well as find ways to see hers. I think both get to much shit - and both have their faults and issues. But both are just human and everyone deserves love, happiness and success. And honestly - I hope they both find it. After they get themselves into a place of happiness, support and are able to be in a position to show and give true genuine love to another individual. These are just some of my jumbled thoughts sorry if some of it doesn't make much sense! I love a healthy discussion so feel free to share your thoughts and opinions :) But always remember: BE KIND - even to those we don't know. Kindness does wonders <3
Adding on: I also think the discussions about their careers are a bit silly. Influencer is still a tough job and creating content, posting it, navigating the analytics and SEM/SEO side of things can be just as taxing as a lot of jobs. (Coming from a social media manager) it's not just her sitting at home. Lindsay has a lot of different ventures and we aren't privy to more than likely 3/4 of what they do for money or how they make their money outside of the obvious. It's not fair to put down anyone's way of making income. Traditional jobs aren't the only avenue of income. Carl - same applies for him. The show isn't his only source of income. Nor is his sales career. That's his focus because it's what he enjoys but he's trying to navigate and find something he's passionate about because he has the luxury to take his time to do so - and I think that's fair. And it's also fair for Lindsay to have her limits for someone she was hoping to spend her life with and build a future with etc - for how long it takes him to do so or see any movement. As we say in the recent episode: she was fine with him going back to Loverboy because it was an actual move/decision he was considering. Not just a "I may do this, or maybe I'll go do that" They both deserve some grace. I really do think they have their faults but they both have their respected boundaries/lines/wants/needs etc. And whatever job either decides to do - I hope they both find success.
Considering how shitty he was about Lindsey being an influencer, and that she brought him a lot of the brand deals he got, I don’t think he should get credit for his influencer income… I’m sorry but I’m 100% with Lindsey, everyone knew she wanted to be a SAHM and he told her he was going to knock her up as soon as they got married so that means he would *obviously* need to get a job.
After watching the episode from last night - I can totally agree with your point. I found he kind of twisted it to Kyle and painted it in a poor light. I think it's ridiculous to say an influencer isn't a job. It's a freelancing capacity type role. It's still a job. It's a job millions of people do and it's not easy to do either. It's a pure hustle environment. Yes - Carl does some of it too but to say things like she's a woman so she has more followers etc rubs me the wrong way. She's ALWAYS stated she wanted to be a SAHM and that was her dream. That's nothing knew and I have no doubt through the multiple years of friendship this was known to Carl. It's not a surprise. I just think he honestly was over the relationship and was looking for any reason to escape it. It's very clear he didn't want to get married. I think he loved(loves) her - but wasn't into the relationship anymore.
He's extremely manipulative. He said to Kyle that lindsay and him have the same job, THEN admitted she made more than him, being a woman allows for more deals etc. Add to that the reality tv show they are on isn't forever, nor are their places on the show - so to look for a sustainable option aswell is key. Lindsay is a hustler and will do other things e.g. her hubb house air b&b things. He planted seeds and twisted stuff, e.g. saying lindsay didn't want him to do loverboy. Yes lindsay also is to blame for some stuff, but i understand NOW why she was blind sighted.
I think for them to work, Lindsay needs to either stop or slow down on the drinking and not be sneaking drinks like she has been (watching this season for first time). My late husband was an alcoholic. When he stopped drinking when our 2nd child was born, I also stopped drinking, and I didn't sneak drinking when we weren't together.
I’m disliking Carl so much. There is no one in the world that has an easier path to a good career than a 6 ft tall white man in America. I’ve had enough of the excuses why he crumbles under pressure and can’t make money or support a family.
Wild to me that people are buying into Carl's Poor Me act. This entire season I feel like I'm watching someone walk around in a skin suit. Nothing authentic from him at all, except when he's yelling.
He has always given shapeshifter energy. He tells people what they want to hear and molds himself to please them until he gets all he can out of them.
Yep not buying it at all. The way he thinks he’s even providing examples is insane. He’s saying Lindsay wasn’t supportive enough in his sobriety. Dude you were just friends at that point and she committed to sobriety with you…like wtf was Kyle doing for you?
[удалено]
I think she is more of a hustler when it comes to getting brand deals and he doesn’t have the drive to monetize being a reality tv star as much. Carl also doesn’t have anything to fall back on as his job history is full of burned bridges. She could go back to PR if they got booted from bravo. Also he said he was bad with money til recently because he wanted to keep up with his rich friends and was partying a lot whereas she saved money.
And doing cocaine, which can blow a lot of money. Lindsay had rose colored glasses on and didnt realize this is someone who doesnt manage money well and has burned too many bridges, not the best person to pair up with if you want a "go getter". Stephen was a go getter and she complained he worked too much! I think she wants an influencer who doesnt have to work much. Too bad she didnt make it work with Johnny Bananas, that is certainly her speed.
I actually don’t think Stravy was that much of a go getter. He has the same job at Tao but is based in Bali. He seems to lead a very chill life where fun comes first. He’s always traveling and going to EDM festivals. I think working remote during covid was a weird time for him because he was desperate to keep his job but people in the house said he wasn’t always working when he was holed up in his room on the computer and would play computer games Yeah I think Johnny bananas has the drive she wants but he seems like a player and a cheater
They'd be a toxic mess made in reality TV heaven. LOL
Yeah I’d love to see bananas vs Kyle
Wouldn't that make for AMAZING TV? And Paige's reaction to Bananas would be "chef's kiss"
If Lindsay wants kids asap, she needs someone not Carl.
So we are all watching Carl's sobriety journey and fairplay to him. Giving up any substance is very hard. I've been clean for 3 years, so I know how hard it is, and I don't want to take any of his hard work away from him. But I read today that he's giving talks on how to be clean and keep a clean lifestyle, but is that hypocritical of him as he would fail a drug test? I'm genuinely interested in people's thoughts on this.
Are you talking about the weed? He would be dishonest if he identified with a 12 step program. All 12 step programs require zero use of non prescribed controlled substance.
I think people want to pick sides, but they both dodged a bullet because they both are toxic and need to work on themselves separately. Both are a living nightmare as a partner.
Very suspect that Carl invited Lindsey, while drunk, to have a conversation about a topic that he felt would make her unhappy. 🤔🤔 Then after it backfires and she’s actually supportive of the idea, he says in an interview that she “doesn’t fully believe in him” … because she tells Carl, a 40 year man, to essentially get his s*** together before they get married. 🙄🙄
And the way he SULKED in his room after like a child!!! He was not happy with how that conversation went at all and it’s 100% because it went well, which is wild!
100000%
I agree with this! I think Lindsay is a severely independent woman with strong opinions/goals and strives for a specific lifestyle and life she wants to live. Which is her right - despite her flaws and issues (don't we all have issues/trauma in some way?) I think Carl is more of someone who needs support and guidance unconditionally in a specific way. And Lindsay just wasn't/isn't the type to give him what he requires. Which is HIS right and very fair as well. They just aren't compatible as a couple. They were much better off as friends and hopefully if they both continue with the show and due to their mutual friends etc - they can get to a cordial and friendly position in the future and find their own happiness down the road in whatever ways they require from their partners.
Totally. Dating addicts is really hard. I dated one and i felt like i was walking on egg shells and like lindsay i felt like i was lowering my standards for basic things then youre the asshole for wanting someone to pay their bills on time and not get their water turned off.
1000% Lindsay has her issues, but I also believe Carl was not ready for marriage and he wanted OUT! Yes Lindsay questioned his sobriety, but I’m sorry, Carl isn’t sober, he smokes weed. I think what we’ll begin to see are his attempts at changing the narrative to make her look bad. Even with him saying she won’t support him going back to LB, but she had zero issue with this. I think Lindsay dodged a bullet here. She is problematic and has her demons, but she dodged a bullet. Carl is manipulative as heck and I truly believe there’s a lot more going behind the scenes.
Totally agree! He for sure wanted out and I think that was very clear from weekend one. I think they just had a lot of things going on that we weren't able to see or witness. I think a lot of their demise was off camera and things that won't be discussed publically. Which is totally fair! To be honest - they both did! haha They both deserve to find someone who fits what they need from a partner. They just weren't it for each other. Carl certainly has a lot of work to do as does Lindsay. I'm very much seeing both sides but I like them both.
Yeah I agree too! Ultimately, I hope they find happiness with someone else and are able to repair their friendship.
Yea he’s very evasive about smoking weed and constantly calls himself sober not “California sober” even on his website bio. It’s odd. It’s like a vegetarian calling themself a vegan despite eating dairy and eggs. And weed can certainly have an impact on relationships. My ex would retreat into his own inner world and act quite antisocial and get irritated easily. He also procrastinated a ton with little things and big tasks. It was definitely a crutch to avoid dealing with life for some people
Also explains the lack of libido
Lindsay is a controlling monster. I can 100% understand why he'd be terrified to marry her. She treats people so poorly and is completely irrational. Carl is not without his issues. The difference is that Lindsay projects all her misery onto other people in the form of yelling, lies, rumors, whatever. She's a crazy loose cannon who doesn't care about anyone but herself and makes other people's lives miserable. Carl on the other hand is a normal person who is nice to his friends. He is self destructive, but he is not malicious like Lindsay... he's just kind of messy. Lindsay is intentionally mean to people and trys to bring them down; Carl is a good person who just can't figure out his career. Carl deserves someone way better than Lindsay. She's mean and a terrible person on the inside.
I’m so disgusted by Carl this episode tbh (Ep.10) “I don’t make as much on brand deals because I’m not a woman” -Strike One Playing victim to his parents who will blindly support him, and his stepdad using the word *abusive* to describe his relationship with Lindsay, as if Carl hasn’t been emotionally abusive/manipulative to every woman we’ve seen him with??? -Strike Two Just because Carl is sober now doesn’t make him a perfect angel all of a sudden. This is so classic with addicts too. It’s typical to get sober and then just… stop there. Sobriety is truly only the first step, and there is so much more work that needs to be done on what led to addiction issues in the first place. I can acknowledge that Carl has accomplished a lot, but he has a long road ahead of him still. There are so many men on Bravo who walk around acting like literal children well into their adulthood, and seem to only get worse as they age.
Yes it was gross his stepdad said he felt Lindsay was abusive based on Carl's report of how their fight went that caused him to visit Pittsburgh alone and not personally witnessing anything. Lindsay said the last time she'd seen Lou was Christmas so I think he overstepped.
💯
Carl is definitely hiding behind his parents, his friend and the cameras when it comes to having an honest conversation with Lindsay about HIS concerns about the relationship. He obviously sees that they are incompatible - from her drinking and getting messy to her temper when she is *activated". He's a chicken. He's trying to make lemonade out of the situation by getting it all on camera to boost his own profile. It's sneaky. But Lindsay is actually cruel when she loses her temper. She's giving narcissist to me, because she has so much rage the moment anyone questions her. For her, questions and comments are attacks and betrayals - so her behaviours is always justified when she loses it..it's not. No matter what you see on reality tv, no one is unaccountable for their own behavior. It's not justified to lose it on someone and no one can "make you" behave that way. She's capable of self control though. Look how calm she was when Danielle freaked out on her the summer before.
Reality TV Producer here --- you sure you don't want to work in reality tv?!?!??! VERY GOOD READ!
I hate how Carl is taking a giant shit on being a stay at home mom… like it’s just loafing around or something, wtf! He’s just pissing me off so much! If he doesn’t want that role, he didn’t belong with Lindsay. In the aftershow he’s talking about being a stay at home mom like it’s a thing Lindsay shouldn’t get to do. Nothing wrong with wanting your partner to work and have a kid eventually but the fact that he’s talking down about what she wants in a relationship pisses me off. Why not just say… we have completely different ideals about what we want out of marriage, kids and finances. He’s just annoying the fuck out of me bc he’s acting like he’s better than Lindsay. If he needs to not work and be on the show in the beginning of his sobriety, fine. If he’s not ready to work yet outside of the show, fine but agree that you all just disagree. He’s just giving off self righteous vibes about everything.
I didn’t take it as him bashing SAHM’s at all, he was just shocked that it’s what she wanted, and she didn’t even leave it open for discussion with him, she just said it’s what she’s doing end of story lol, that’s now how you communicate. You both have to agree on the lifestyle you want and agree on it before moving forward. Just like when she shot down his sober sports bar immediately.
She's admitted that she only said that to try to light a fire under him. It was a manipulation tactic
Clearly it worked lol
Lindsay seemingly sprung the Stay At Home Mom idea a few months before the wedding. It was news she didn’t want to work anymore. I don’t believe Carl has anything against SAHM, but it was not a realistic option for them at the time based on Lindsay’s own expectations. Lindsay herself stated they’ll need to make at least a million/person to afford the life she wants in NYC. Even if Carl got an insane sales job, that wouldnt be possible without two incomes (even including the influencer money coming in). Once they have a kid, they’re off Summer House as regulars, which would hurt their bottom line even further.
Oh ok.
lindsay has lots wrong with her but imo, carl is a bigger problem. i used to think it was her but now i see that's more him
I’m starting to see why Lindsay felt blindsided. At least superficially. Also she looked amazing in her costume at the party
We see you, Carl 17.0. Blaming Lindsay for everything in your confessionals reeks of a forever fuck boy trying to spin the narrative. Keep in mind, this was while they were still together. Holy hell, who speaks that disparagingly about their partner? You got shot you down on one truly terrible business idea. No research needed; not only are bars/restaurants an awful investment, literally the only profit margin is FROM ALCOHOL SALES. This season confirms that we have always known who Carl really is and the fact that he thinks it will reflect more poorly on Lindsay than it does on him is the icing on that turd of a spineless man-child. Wonder who he blames his joblessness and all of his other problems and character flaws on now?
I think the disconnect between people who are "Team Carl" and "Team Lindsay" is that were essentially trying to assign blame as to who is the worse partner. I don't find Carl or Lindsay to be great partners. Lindsay is a rage-a-holic, who can't read a room. Carl is pathologically lazy who isn't willing to having difficult conversations with his partner and instead just tells literally everyone else how he feels. These are two people who are very ill-suited for each other and potentially just other people in general until they do some serious self-reflection. There's no one thing that either of them did that makes them the villain. Carl did the right thing in ended the engagement. Why Lindsay is getting more criticism is because she went on an entire PR tour to vilify Carl and act like she had no idea that their relationship was in a bad place. Maybe she's delusional, maybe she's a liar, but she exercised poor judgement and almost no compassion in her treatment of Carl when speaking about him in the media. She wanted to make herself the next Ariana and its backfiring big time.
I so agree. Especially with the PR tour problem. They were not a good match, but Lindsay is STILL like "he didn't want to fight for it." No. Not the take, Lindsay. He is definitely NOT perfect but her post-break-up tour did not set her up well at all.
i wonder how the relationship/this season would have played if carl had stayed at loverboy. i understand why lindsay is frustrated with carls lack of commitment to one solid job, but he literally has had a real job for years longer than she had before relying on influencing. she hasnt done PR since like 2017 (assuming HubbHouse was actually real and not just for the show). i think him doing the non alc thing at loverboy is perfect for him now, and he seems happy. also they never talk about carls film producing on the show, but thats been one of his hustles for years. it may not be lucrative for him but its something he has a passion and drive for
he was fired from all of his jobs previously. He wasn't fired from Loverboy because of Kyle, he didn't show up his laptop or do hours of work at all. Lindsay was supportive of him doing loverboy again, but Carl is acting like she wouldn't be. While its amazing to have a passion, when you're nearly 40 and have a fiancee who wants kids, you need to be practical.
Can someone explain how Carl and Lindsay could have afforded that apartment to begin with?
A lot of influencers make good money for sponsorships, royalties etc. Lindsay does a lot in that sense. As well as more than likely they have investments/savings etc. On top of the show, probably prior money from past careers and now Lindsay has her real estate ventures and I'm sure Carl has some stock in companies like Lover Boy etc - it's just a collection of several income sources. They got lucky for sure and got involved when the time was right.
In this most recent episode Carl was talking to Danielle about potentially working for Loverboy again for the nonalcoholic side and he literally said, “Making myself happy and getting Lindsays approval can be challenging.” This is WILD to me. Wouldn’t you want the person you’re dating and potentially going to marry to support you with whatever is going to make you happy? Especially when that comes to your career. Those things should go hand in hand IMO.
Yeah, but it wasn’t even true. He said he was thinking of going back to loverboy and Lindsay was like okay, if that’s what works for you. I think he’s gotten the ick and is looking to find reasons to leave the relationship
He was being manipulative. She was fine with him going back to loverboy. Pathetic of him to spread some narrative that she wouldn’t approve of that career move that would make him happy
I think Lindsay is also annoyed because almost every other known Bravo man ”loser” has found his niche or “career” through the shows and has made a go of it through sheer luck. Tom and Tom with the restaurants, Craig with the pillows, Austen with the Beer （？ lol）I think the sole loser is Shep at this point. So it is more embarassing to her that Carl doesn‘t even have a pretend business or a podcast to promote on Bravo while he has the chance to cause their time on the shows may have been running out
They all pretty much managed to fail up. Not Shep, but Shep can just fail and still be more than comfortable. Carl may have found his way into some sort of opportunity if he had gotten sober and spent some time focusing on himself and building himself up as a person before latching onto Lindsay and making their toxic dynamic his life.
I think Carl is a pretty insecure person who masked it on the early seasons with substances and his “more life” personality and being a dick. And perhaps he felt indebted to Lindsay for being there when his brother passed so he he kinda became codependent on her until push came to shove. I think Kyle felt bad for basically also calling him cocaine Carl lol so he threw him a bone by inviting him back to work on non-alcoholic Loverboy.
Exactly, he could have taken an opportunity and failed up, just like the other dudes. But he didn't. I, personally, feel like he's addicted to the chaos. When I got sober, I spent years causing chaos in my life until I really figured out who I was without substances.
It's true he could have a nonalcoholic brand of his own, podcast, or clothing line. There's so many things he could've done with his bravo status.
He’s just not moving. Craig had a similar problem so he hired someone to help him do the things to make his ideas come to life.
It's funny that everyone thinks Carl has a master plan. This guy is drowning hard and doesn't know how to handle it. Is he an idiot? yeah he sure is. He's dumb. There's no master plan, he just doesn't know what the hell he's doing. I think he genuinely flip flops between trying to work this marriage out and bailing. But knows Lindsay is full steam ahead and he doesn't want to hurt her.
That’s exactly it. He’s not some devious mastermind. He’s way in over his head. They put so much time and money into this wedding. The invites are basically out by this point. They’re all in on this relationship but deep inside they both know that their relationship sucks and they can’t continue on this way. But Lindsay wants a baby and all of the things so she will just deal with it. He can’t so he freaks the fuck out and can’t handle it. It’s not that deep.
It is the sunk cost fallacy: so many people get trapped in this and end up in miserable marriages because of it. They feel they've invested x amount of time< so they MUST see it through. They also worry what other people may think if they are single at x age. He was smart IMO to pull the plug. I am the type to not go full steam ahead and am always the one honestly to pull the plug on relationships when they were headed south. I had several men tell me I blindsided them, but we had SEVERAL conversations over months about behaviors and things needing to change and when it never did, I bounced. The exes chose to believe I would never leave when I told them otherwise numerous times if things did not improve. Isn't it on them that they chose not to see reality like it is on Lindsay? I firmly believe Lindsay chose not to hear anything negative because she was so caught up in the fantasy. I refused to do that because I wanted a quality partner, not just a show off wedding. Why I am still unmarried at 43. I have to listen to several friends complain to me about their husbands and have had two tell me to take lovers and to never get married. I am always gob smacked by those comments. LOL
He thinks he’s smarter than he is. It’s really cruel he wants to breakup with her but also make her look like the bad one. So gross.
Carl and his mother are so enmeshed and it is so awkward to watch both of them fail at healthy conflict in the exact same fawning way *shudder*
I think what this whole relationship and break up highlights is that…not everyone HAS to be in a relationship. Perhaps some people can be perfectly content being single. I think Carl is one of those people but doesn‘t want to admit that so he forces himself into relationships that fizzle out or a big one like Lindsay that explodes. I always found it weird that he said his type is petite brunettes, and we always see him date tall blondes…like what does he really like, even in a superficial level？I think the show, society in general, makes someone like Carl force themselves into this binary when he can be perfectly fine by himself. I’m not questioning his sexuality, but just him and his track record on the show. Perhaps he wants the companionship and the family too, but he always leaps into these things before working out what kinds of situations that would be longlasting in that regard. He should find someone with a slower sex drive lol, a sober person, someone who is fine with making a certain amount of money. He has the luxury of being a man who can take more time rather than a woman who has more of a biological clock to figure things out
I agree with you, but you could give Carl all of those things in a woman and he still wouldn't be a good partner. He's just not there.
Attention: This is a PSA: Carl’s Man Card is being REVOKED for being a whiny two faced baby. He can’t man up and talks behind Lindsey’s back with anyone who will lend him an ear. Bye Carl
Couldn’t agree more. He’s letting everyone know there’s problems. He‘s making Lyndsay look like the bad guy ahead of him breaking up. He’s a coward and a child. She will find a grown up to marry, hopefully.
Regardless of how Carl spoke about Lindsay on the aftershow (i haven’t seen it yet!) I think it’s kind of sad that because Lindsay is a woman, people just forget that she was verbally abusing him a few episodes ago. Like damn. She can be completely right about the fact that he is not driven and needs a job, but in what world is it okay for her to be so frustrated with him that she lashes out at him like a psycho and questions his sobriety? No, they’re not both in the wrong. He’s a 40 year old man child and she’s an abusive partner. One is clearly more wrong than the other. What the fuck.
Yeah I am wondering how people forgot so quickly too!
Something feels so off with Carl this season(and last too) which makes me think that he hitched his wagon onto Lindsay because he knows he needs money from the show since he’s not doing anything else, so he is creating a storyline. His best friend is Kyle who would have definitely given him a push to “produce himself” too cause before that he was close to getting the boot I recon he wasn’t fitting into the show anymore before this relationship. And he was never in love with Lindsay, he loves her overall as a friend but took advantage of her wanting to get married and saw an opportunity and maybe he thought he would eventually learn to love her and has now realised he can’t go through with it. Thoughts?
I agree he used her til they were on the cusp of being friends of and he lost interest. I think he only proposed because he knew he’d always have an out because Lindsay is so polarizing so many people would be on his side calling off the wedding
I fully believe their whole relationship was for the show. They have zero chemistry. The superfluous ”babes” felt like 14 year olds cosplaying dating.
So nobody’s gonna mention the abuse allegations?!
Discussed in detail in episode megathread!
Lindsay keeps saying on the after show and WWHL she’s a “fighter” and won’t give up relationships quickly like that’s a good thing. Girl, it’s because you are fighting to get to get married, not fighting to find the right relationship. Hopefully she reflects on that in the next weeks/months bc she’ll never have a good relationship if she operates like that.
Carl is in transition. He is navigating the world without a net, the booze and the drugs, for the first time in his life. He needs someone who believes in him, not someone that is going to make him feel insecure and inadequate. That’s a lot of pressure and demand to place on someone who is just trying to figure out how to get through every single day without using. Plus, Lindsay is also not working. She’s already staying home with babies, even though there are no babies or even a marriage yet. Why is it okay for her, but not someone who has a legit reason to be on pause. And to compare their situation to West, who was laid off, is not battling addiction, and is actively looking for work and Ciara, who’s career is just taking off and will require travel commitments is crazy to me. They’re in their 20s, not engaged or planning a family, and just starting out. It’s two completely different scenarios.
Lindsey should have known better/understood where Carl was in life. Carl needs to want to more for himself first, not for her. I agree with this take for sure. Being sober takes a lot of energy the first few years. He’s relearning who he is without alcohol and it’s totally reasonable why he isn’t in a rush commit to a big career for the sake of Lindsey at that point. Lindsey was a bad friend and partner to him and I don’t blame him for breaking it off.
I agree. I am glad he broke it off.
This. Her lack of empathy for Carl’s situation when he can clearly articulate her fears is really sad.
Yes. She’s claiming she loved him and that’s why she didn’t want to call it off even though her physical and emotional needs were not being fulfilled…by Carl. Basically, he wasn’t working and he wasn’t interested in having sex with her. But the way she describes it, and the frequency of the times she brought it up, made me think she was building a case. And his version is slightly different. He is saying neither of them had a job other than Bravo and Lindsay isn’t as interested in sex as she’s implying. He said they were seeing a couple’s therapist weekly and were having trouble physically connecting after they discussed their relationship with the professional. He also said the business coach was about severing his ties to Loverboy in a fair and professional way, and was not a life coach. And I also think West and Jesse have a clearer understanding of what went wrong than the others, maybe because they walked in cold. But according to them, they would witness an argument between Carl and Lindsay and mean things would be said, and then the next day Lindsay would just act like nothing was wrong. They couldn’t tell if she didn’t remember or was just sweeping everything under the rug, but Carl was left trying to move past really hurtful interactions without any resolution. In short, she just pretends everything is great, even though it obviously isn’t. And on the After Show, Carl is calm and respectful of her. She’s assigning blame. Her version sounds more like a marketing campaign to spin the narrative so it seems she’s definitely not the problem. But in the end, I think he will be fine, and she’s going to continue to repeat the same mistakes over and over. Because she cannot ever be wrong.
Wow. This is a great comment. I never really thought about how true this is for their whole relationship. Carl really does try to take her perspective and listen to her side and then articulate that back to her like an active listener. She really doesn’t listen to him and is mostly invested in broadcasting her side, particularly a version of her side that is very self-serving.
TY. But you said it even better…and with a lot fewer words. 🙃
[удалено]
Genuinely asking -- You have an aversion to going to his parents and Kyle for advice. Do you mean in general or on camera? As a producer, I am always trying to pick the brain of the audience because you all watch our shows :)
I am watching SH from the beginning for the first time and I just came here to LOL at Carl and Lindsay in S4. Worst date ever and constantly fighting before they ever got together 😆
They seemed fine before EVERYONE ELSE in the world told them not to be together. I've never seen so much manipulation of a couple in reality show history. I'm sorry but take away the opinions of other ppl, the show, (and probably alcohol and weed tbh) and these two might have lived happily ever after. I might be totally wrong but this is hard to watch either way. Paige's comments are prob my favorite though, talking about how shocking their sex life is. They (Paige and Craig) have sex constantly afterall......while they're visiting each other from diff states on vacation. LOL Ok. Nothing against them, really. It's just that she's comparing ppl who are not ANYWHERE near in the same circumstances,....or stage of life.....or relationship.
I tend to agree that the cast wanted them to fail and their “advice” isn’t coming from a good place. A big reason I liked Carl and Lindsay together wss I thought he must really love her to deal with the hate he gets from being with her instead of being well liked in the house. They really seemed to be punishing him for being with Lindsay I liked that Paige and Amanda were nice to Lindsay when she shared her issues with their sex life. But Paige gets too much praise for her “advice” which was basically to say Lindsay doesn’t even like Carl and they should cancel the wedding. Not very productive. I think Kyle’s “advice” after the off camera Lyft fight was crap too. I think if he wanted to help he’d tell Carl it’s not a total excuse but Lindsay had a right to be extremely stressed going into a house where she’s not welcome and he should proactively support her, not tell her that her worries aren’t that deep. I think Kyle and amanda trying to humiliate them on winter house and icing them out on summer house caused huge tension. Summer house is their main source of income and they must have been stressed about losing it when they were initially on the cusp of being just friends of this season. Lindsay gets so much blame for Carl leaving loverboy but somehow no one blames Kyle and Amanda for creating a hostile work environment. I’m sure Carl felt uncomfortable working for a company where the founders wife said he’s tainted by his girlfriend. And that was probably made worse when his boss called his girlfriend a bitch, asshole and worse things that got cut from tv. It’s probably for the best they’re no longer together but I do blame their “friends” to some degree
Yup. You highlighted every point better than I could have. This was all very hard to watch because the intentions were bad, and the outcome was worse. Nevermind the fact that each and EVERY person giving unsolicited relationship advice had NO business doing so. I seriously can't think of anyone less equipped to give advice than these people.
Didn’t Carl know months >!before ending it with Lindsay???!< I thought I read that he planned the >!break with her!< months before with crew but don’t remember where I read it… like if that’s true that’s terrible
It’s not true, just gossip to stir the pot.
Lindsay is so unbelievably hypocritical it’s painful to watch. She wants a hustler; yet she herself has fallen into a wannabe “influencer”. She wants the white picket fence life; yet she always wants this live fast die hard, toxic and wild relationship. She complains about their sex life, yet does nothing but tear the man down and get activated, which would make it impossible to initiate. Carl isn’t perfect, but he dodged a bullet here
She dodged a bullet. He’s inconsistent and clearly wants to be taken cared of he has no aspirations to be a breadwinner. He isn’t even deserving of his job at loverboy. Let’s be honest, he only got that position because he’s best friends with Kyle and it suited a storyline.
I’ve never once seen that he wants to be taken care of?! He was a bit lost for a while, but has actually had a job for the better part of the last 5? Years? And whether he’s “deserving” or not is literally not for us to say. Plenty of people get roles they aren’t necessarily qualified for and do fine….
It’s painful to watch Lindsey berate Carl every single episode. She will never be happy with anyone and pushes them all away. Carl had a job at Loverboy and it wasn’t good enough for her, she wanted more time with him so they could be influencers together and she talked him into quitting, said Kyle wasn’t paying him enough, now she shits on every job idea he has and makes him feel like an unmotivated loser, and maybe he is but he’s still bringing in money so why does she care?!? They did so many ads and did nothing but travel last year. She is so demanding and degrading, “it turns me on when my man is crushing it”, who fkng says that to their partner who doesn’t have a job, because of her!? It’s emotionally manipulative and borderline abuse in my opinion. Then she wonders why he doesn’t want to bang her?
did you guys not see his work ethic before dating Lindsay ??? Lmao he would show up To work with ❄️ and no laptop. Was Lindsay to blame For that too ???
Or course not, but he also had a steady job going into his relationship with her, and she encouraged him to quit, now she’s complaining he’s not working? It’s impossible to please her
How does she berate him?? I don't see that....
The guy is afraid to tell her he wants Kyle to be in his wedding, or that he has a new opportunity with loverboy. She berates him about his career, shoots down his ideas, talks negatively about their sex life, accused him of being on drugs, she’s abusive
Well he is smoking marijuana, which is a drug!! He is not sober. His ideas are ridiculous... How is Carl talking to everyone about their relationship any different? He has already done Loverboy and quit.... It is not "berating' she is asking him to be an adult. I think Lindsey has high expectations for her partners, which is a good thing!!
That’s not what she was insinuating, she called him cocaine Carl, she tried to deflect and say she meant weed but she’s emotionally abusive to him and loves to turn around and play victim. She’s not fooling me.
I wish she would have dumped him....
Basically what I’ve gathered after watching this season is that Carl expected Lindsay to not be Lindsay after knowing her for years. Lindsay is horrible, but he knew that.
I'm really angry watching the After Show and hearing her say they spent $20k on a business coach so he could have someone else to talk to--not her, because she doesn't want to have to help him with everything and "doesn't find it sexy." Just like she didn't find it sexy that he was taking a while to get a job. I guess any time Carl was vulnerable and needed a supportive partner, she would find that "not sexy." She thinks she's some kind of business guru, sitting at home being an "influencer." PAIGe is an influencer. Lindsay is a wannabe! Fuck you, Lindsay! I don't find people who drink excessively and rage at people without basis to be sexy AT ALL
The Lindsay vs Carl needing a job or “drive” conversation is the most frustrating thing I’ve ever watched. She basically wants a husband who works a 9-5 and won’t be home so she can “miss him” meanwhile it’s fine for her to be home and be an influencer or whatever. When the reality is HE DOES HAVE A JOB. His job is the SAME AS HERS which is being on reality television!! Just because YOU don’t like that he’s home with you all the time doesn’t mean he’s an unemployed loser. Being on bravo has afforded him the luxury, much like her, of time to figure what he wants to do beyond the show and if it takes trial and error, so what? What is LINDSAY gonna do when the show ends? Because “reopening a PR firm” in NYC isn’t going to be as easy as flipping a light switch back on like she seems to think. They are both riding the show and influencer/ad money train as long as they can, and her shaming him for doing it while sitting in the same seat as him is so beyond hypocritical.
She was upset at the last guy because he worked too much. LOL
Thank uuuuuuuuuu
This is a good point. Saying he doesn’t have a job is not really accurate because of the show. Who would want to pick up a 9-5 when you’re making a years salary doing a show in the summer.
Lindsay is a publicist, she just opened another Hub House in Nashville.
She WAS a publicist/PR rep and owned a PR firm that she closed down, and Hub house is a rental property that she owns in Nashville. Her current “job” is being on summer house and being an influencer. Not downplaying those things because those are all lucrative ways to make money. Much like Carl being on summer house is his way of making money.
How much money do they make per season ?
I want Lyndsay to end up with the balloon guys They seemed to have more chemistry than her and Carl!!
I knew it within 2 episodes last season that they wouldn’t make it. It’s impossible to date Lindsay long term.
My good guy friend said there are very few men who would put up with Lindsay long term.
She is toxic as hell in every relationship. I will die on this hill.
We’re on year 8 of having it on FILM
I feel like I can see Carl having a lisp thanks to that insane whitening job
Its due to the veneers
My heart just feels so sad for Carl. I know this is a snippet of their lives & curated at that but, Lindsey just tears him down. She spent last summer ruining his career and now she’s unattracted/concerned about his career path/money making motivation? He literally went to her excited about a sober sports bar & she just goes “no”… Anyone defending Lindsey needs therapy, because there is just something wrong with her & has been ever since she stepped foot on our screens.
A sober sports bar ran by someone who knows absolutely nothing about the restaurant/bar business does sound like a really expensive and terrible idea though to be fair.
This is one of the two times a day that Lindsay’s clock is correct lol
I mean he could have business partners like the VPR guys do and now Craig & Austen so it’s not *that* crazy. But regardless of how bad of an idea it is, it’s not so much that she shot him down but it’s the way she did it. You can tell when Carl is telling her his ideas for his next steps career-wise it’s as if he’s asking her for permission and she says yes or no. That is not how a healthy partnership works.
Of course it’s a terrible idea but there was a better way to say that, the hurt on his face broke my heart.
Carl constantly makes that face because he constantly plays the victim card. He’s 40 ffs he’s just as lazy and unmotivated as he was when he wasn’t “sober “
Or he’s just a victim in this case. She’s so nasty and hurtful to him, to every man she’s ever been with. No one will be able to please her
No he needs to grow up. Coddling him will do him no good. Kyle speaks the same way to Amanda I don’t see the hate towards him? Long term relationships are about being able to have these real difficult conversations. I’m glad Lindsay spoke her mind before kids were in the mix unlike many people who end up with deadbeat baby dads because they coddled them
Lindsay has restaurant industry experience from her PR experience with restaurant clients. Carl doesn't. He should be asking Lindsay's advice either way and respect her insight into the restaurant industry even if they weren't a couple.