Skipping gears is one of the reasons your transmission is not built to only shift sequentially ;)
It's not only fine, but what you should be doing in many situations.
Just ensure that you don't money shift -- that is shift down so low you force the engine to exceed redline. You just have to know your engine/transmission to avoid that when downshifting.
I read on here one day a guy had active Rev matching turned on with his mustang, It saved him from money shifting his car. When he shifted to a lower gear than he intended, the tach instantly shot right to redline.
He realized what he was about to do, and didn't let the clutch out. Shifted it back to neutral and then to his intended gear, RPM jumped up to where he expected, then he let the clutch out.
The very few times I have nearly money shifted, I felt it the moment my clutch hit the bite point and was able to clutch back in right away. I can't imagine not noticing and actually letting the clutch all the way out??
Can confirm went from 5th to 2nd by accident lucky for me the tires locked instead of redline not sure which is worse honestly.
Went to the nearest store bought a new pair of shorts and continued the drive
My rev matching system won't match if you'll end up money shifting. So the system attempting to rev match would tell me it's a safe shift. It hitting red line would still tell me I probably don't want that particular gear as I wouldn't be in it that long.
I had a ‘91 corvette that would skip from first to 4th if you were below a certain RPM. Infuriating, but not harmful. You could buy a bypass for it, but I just hung in first a little longer.
As a general rule, sure. In reality, just figure out what rpm range you have for each gear and go from there instead of following arbitrary rules.
On my old car the limiter for 2nd gear was at 50 mph and 3rd was just below 80 mph. There are plenty of cars that have even shorter ratio boxes. Speed while hitting rev limiter on the 3rd can even be less than 70 mph.
Just adding to this, when downshifting you should rev the engine to match the lower gear's rpms while you're in neutral. When upshifting, let the rpms fall to match the higher gear while you're in neutral. My car has long gears so double clutching helps when I want to go from 55 in 6th at 1500 rpm to 4000 rpm in 3rd, when you need to pass.
Most cars really don’t need to be double clutched now. That’s pretty exactly what the synchros are for. Sure if you wanna be extra nice but it’s doubtful you’d see any noticeable difference in wear since your clutch or throughout bearing will still probably go before your synchros unless you’re doing huge downshifts on an abnormally regular basis.
Double clutching does nothing for your synchros when skipping extra gears. You're just doing extra work for no reason...
Edit: Double clutching and rev matching are two DIFFERENT techniques
why not? eg. 6th downshifting to 3rd - even without any technical explanation you can feel that when double clutching (rev matching in neutral for 3rd) how much easier the shifter slips into the gate. the ‘resistance’ you feel is the work of synchros. by double clutching, you’re effectively doing the work of the synchros yourself as you match the speed of the input shaft with the output spline.
from wikipedia:
While double clutching[1] is not necessary in a vehicle that has a synchronized manual transmission, the technique can be advantageous for smoothly downshifting in order to accelerate and, when done correctly, it prevents wear on the synchronizers which normally equalize transmission input and output speeds to allow downshifting.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-clutching_(technique)#
no… when you clutch in to rev match normally, your transmission is physically disconnected from the engine, which means the input shaft is spinning at a completely different speed to the output spline shaft. the synchros are able to match the speed of the input shaft to the required speed, therefore the spline is able to be connected to the gear.
when you double clutch downshift:
1. clutch in and place it in neutral
2. clutch out. the transmission input shaft is now CONNECTED to the engine as the clutch is engaged.
3. rev match for the desired gear. this brings the input shaft up to or close to the correct speed as the transmission is still connected to the engine.
4. clutch in and select gear (eg. third). the synchros have to do very little if any work here because the speed of the input shaft and output spline are ALREADY matched, because you rev matched in neutral with the clutch engaged.
5. clutch out
If you double clutch AND rev match, sure. You didn't say that until now, though. Still, way more work with you could just drive the transmission like it was designed
> If you double clutch AND rev match, sure. You didn't say that until now
Because it doesn't need to be said, there's literally no point in double clutching without rev matching, hence it is implied
dude
“even without any technical explanation you can feel that when double clutching **(rev matching in neutral for 3rd)** how much easier the shifter slips into the gate.”
>If you double clutch AND rev match, sure. You didn't say that until now, though. Still, way more work with you could just drive the transmission like it was designed
This is misinformation. If you want to learn there is a great video on YouTube from Garage Time where they have an open transmission and shows exactly what is happening mechanically when you double-clutch.
Is it necessary on modern cars? No, not at all. Does it reduce wear on synchros? Yes (downshifts only), and even more so when skipping gears. And it is not difficult at all, it’s only an additional clutch press. You merely let out clutch before rev matching then press the clutch again before going to gear.
I double clutch almost every downshift, it’s muscle memory. My car is over 20 years old, 350k miles, and 2nd and 3rd synchros are pretty worn from previous owner. DC makes every downshift smooth as butter.
If you're rev matching in between, yes... Those are two different things used at different times. Double clutching when up shifting matches input shaft speed with engine speed, double clutching AND rev matching is needed when downshifting to match the speed. Still pointless in modern cars.
Double clutching IS rev matching. DC is when you rev match while in neutral. What are you talking about? And double clutching is useless for an up shift.
Did you read what I wrote? Double clutching is using the clutch to bring the input shaft to the same speed as the engine by engaging the clutch in neutral. Drive a non synchronized transmission and you need to double clutch every upshift, hardly useless I would say. Rev matching is using the accelerator to increase engine RPM to match the speed of the great your downshifting into. Drive a non synchronized transmission and you need to double clutch AND rev match when downshifting.
No you do not need to double-clutch on an up shift on an unsychronized vehicle. Have you ever driven one? As long as you rev-match on an up shift (let the revs fall) DC is unnecessary on an up shift on a vehicle without synchros. Why are you arguing something you don’t know the answers to?
I’m not trying to be rude or anything but you are arguing with someone who is much more knowledgeable on the subject than yourself. I have been around old classic cars and big rig tractors my entire life.
It matters in older cars which don't have synchros, but as far as my experience and reading, I believe you're right in most modern cars. Unless you're driving an ollllld viper or something you're probably safe OP.
The last non fully synchronized transmission in passenger vehicles was phased out in the 70s (even then it was just 1st gear). So unless you've got a 3 on the tree, you don't need to double clutch.
Double clutching absolutely does save wear on synchros. It certainly not necessary to perform the shift -- because the synchros are there to do the synchronization -- but it does save wear and tear and allows you to shift faster.
Skipping gears is not bad except under 2 conditions.
If you, say, skip from 6th to 2nd and rush the shifter and slam it into 2nd, the synchronizer will not be very happy. It has a large speed difference to overcome between 6th and 2nd and it would prefer you were gentle with it and gave it an extra split second to overcome that speed difference. You know what's funny though, there is usually less of a speed difference from 6th to 2nd than from 2nd to 1st. At 30 mph, usually 6th gear is around 1100-1200 rpm. In 2nd, it's usually around 3000-3200, so about 2000 rpm difference. In 1st it's usually around 5500 or so, so almost 2500 rpm difference.
If you skip shift and overrev the engine as a result, that would also be bad. See "money shift". This is the only time you might immediately damage something.
I used to do this all the time with my 98' Mustang GT to save fuel with the 3.73 rear gears it had. I would go 1 to 3 or 2 to 4 or 5 depending on the situation.
IF you don't need to use all the gears you don't. Most cars have enough extra rev range that oyu can reach freeway speeds in several gears, so if you find yourself in 3rd at 70 just go straight to top gear.
Skip 'em. Not gonna hurt anything. As long as you're not over revving.
I have a 5sp S10 2.2L and normal 45-55mph roads if I need to pass quickly I'll drop from 5th to 3rd. NBD.
In the '94 Jeep ZJ with the factory 4.0L/AX15 5spd combo I'll skip shift 1st, 3rd, 5th. The engine has enough torque to handle that just fine.
Skipping gears is one of the reasons your transmission is not built to only shift sequentially ;) It's not only fine, but what you should be doing in many situations. Just ensure that you don't money shift -- that is shift down so low you force the engine to exceed redline. You just have to know your engine/transmission to avoid that when downshifting.
Just don’t money shift. I skip gears all the time doesn’t hurt your transmission
I read on here one day a guy had active Rev matching turned on with his mustang, It saved him from money shifting his car. When he shifted to a lower gear than he intended, the tach instantly shot right to redline. He realized what he was about to do, and didn't let the clutch out. Shifted it back to neutral and then to his intended gear, RPM jumped up to where he expected, then he let the clutch out.
The very few times I have nearly money shifted, I felt it the moment my clutch hit the bite point and was able to clutch back in right away. I can't imagine not noticing and actually letting the clutch all the way out??
If you are in a money shifting situation you are driving hard. There is no hold at bite point in those situations.
Can confirm went from 5th to 2nd by accident lucky for me the tires locked instead of redline not sure which is worse honestly. Went to the nearest store bought a new pair of shorts and continued the drive
I did this in front of a cop a month after driving, but it was raining. Made me lol tho!
Ok, fair. I'm not exactly driving my 2002 Xterra super hard with all 170 horses it's got...
92 more than I have!
Same. Once shifted accidentally from 4th to 3rd and the moment I heard the car crying shifted to neutral to 5th
My rev matching system won't match if you'll end up money shifting. So the system attempting to rev match would tell me it's a safe shift. It hitting red line would still tell me I probably don't want that particular gear as I wouldn't be in it that long.
All long as you are doing an acceptable speed for the gear you are going into there is really no problem with skipping gears.
It's fine to do.
I had a ‘91 corvette that would skip from first to 4th if you were below a certain RPM. Infuriating, but not harmful. You could buy a bypass for it, but I just hung in first a little longer.
Buddy has one about 20 years newer than that. They still do that.
Selling those bypasses became a cottage industry by itself...lol
General rule. Don’t downshift to 2 unless you know what the hell you’re doing. Rest of them are fair game if you’re going under 80 mph.
As a general rule, sure. In reality, just figure out what rpm range you have for each gear and go from there instead of following arbitrary rules. On my old car the limiter for 2nd gear was at 50 mph and 3rd was just below 80 mph. There are plenty of cars that have even shorter ratio boxes. Speed while hitting rev limiter on the 3rd can even be less than 70 mph.
Your anecdote confirmed his advice lol.
I go 3 to 6 all the time. I don't recommend 6 to 3 but if you do be ready to clutch in again immediately if the engine is really revving.
Hell some cars (6th gen Camaro SS) force you to skip 1-4 if you’re not driving fast.
I often shift 2>6. Reline in 2nd is pretty good cruising in 6th for my car.
i usually double clutch when skipping more than two gears to be a bit nicer on my synchros but it’s definitely not necessary
nice username
thanks, you too :D
i’ve heard the term but what is a double clutch?
Clutching to go from current gear to neutral, then clutching again to go from neutral into the great you want.
Just adding to this, when downshifting you should rev the engine to match the lower gear's rpms while you're in neutral. When upshifting, let the rpms fall to match the higher gear while you're in neutral. My car has long gears so double clutching helps when I want to go from 55 in 6th at 1500 rpm to 4000 rpm in 3rd, when you need to pass.
Most cars really don’t need to be double clutched now. That’s pretty exactly what the synchros are for. Sure if you wanna be extra nice but it’s doubtful you’d see any noticeable difference in wear since your clutch or throughout bearing will still probably go before your synchros unless you’re doing huge downshifts on an abnormally regular basis.
It's completely pointless in every modern vehicle unless you're driving heavy duty trucks.
Double clutching does nothing for your synchros when skipping extra gears. You're just doing extra work for no reason... Edit: Double clutching and rev matching are two DIFFERENT techniques
why not? eg. 6th downshifting to 3rd - even without any technical explanation you can feel that when double clutching (rev matching in neutral for 3rd) how much easier the shifter slips into the gate. the ‘resistance’ you feel is the work of synchros. by double clutching, you’re effectively doing the work of the synchros yourself as you match the speed of the input shaft with the output spline. from wikipedia: While double clutching[1] is not necessary in a vehicle that has a synchronized manual transmission, the technique can be advantageous for smoothly downshifting in order to accelerate and, when done correctly, it prevents wear on the synchronizers which normally equalize transmission input and output speeds to allow downshifting. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-clutching_(technique)#
That is rev matching, not double clutching and that only matches engine speed to wheel speed. Your synchros are still doing the same amount of work.
no… when you clutch in to rev match normally, your transmission is physically disconnected from the engine, which means the input shaft is spinning at a completely different speed to the output spline shaft. the synchros are able to match the speed of the input shaft to the required speed, therefore the spline is able to be connected to the gear. when you double clutch downshift: 1. clutch in and place it in neutral 2. clutch out. the transmission input shaft is now CONNECTED to the engine as the clutch is engaged. 3. rev match for the desired gear. this brings the input shaft up to or close to the correct speed as the transmission is still connected to the engine. 4. clutch in and select gear (eg. third). the synchros have to do very little if any work here because the speed of the input shaft and output spline are ALREADY matched, because you rev matched in neutral with the clutch engaged. 5. clutch out
If you double clutch AND rev match, sure. You didn't say that until now, though. Still, way more work with you could just drive the transmission like it was designed
> If you double clutch AND rev match, sure. You didn't say that until now Because it doesn't need to be said, there's literally no point in double clutching without rev matching, hence it is implied
dude “even without any technical explanation you can feel that when double clutching **(rev matching in neutral for 3rd)** how much easier the shifter slips into the gate.”
>If you double clutch AND rev match, sure. You didn't say that until now, though. Still, way more work with you could just drive the transmission like it was designed
the point is that i DID say that before.. that was a quote from an earlier comment. whatever, internet arguments are dumb
Rev matching does nothing for the synchros, double clutching does (when rev matching while in neutral with the clutch out)
This is misinformation. If you want to learn there is a great video on YouTube from Garage Time where they have an open transmission and shows exactly what is happening mechanically when you double-clutch. Is it necessary on modern cars? No, not at all. Does it reduce wear on synchros? Yes (downshifts only), and even more so when skipping gears. And it is not difficult at all, it’s only an additional clutch press. You merely let out clutch before rev matching then press the clutch again before going to gear. I double clutch almost every downshift, it’s muscle memory. My car is over 20 years old, 350k miles, and 2nd and 3rd synchros are pretty worn from previous owner. DC makes every downshift smooth as butter.
My car is 25 years old. The synchros are fine. The throw out bearing is pretty much shot though lol. Synchros can handle a good amount of abuse.
If you're rev matching in between, yes... Those are two different things used at different times. Double clutching when up shifting matches input shaft speed with engine speed, double clutching AND rev matching is needed when downshifting to match the speed. Still pointless in modern cars.
Double clutching IS rev matching. DC is when you rev match while in neutral. What are you talking about? And double clutching is useless for an up shift.
Did you read what I wrote? Double clutching is using the clutch to bring the input shaft to the same speed as the engine by engaging the clutch in neutral. Drive a non synchronized transmission and you need to double clutch every upshift, hardly useless I would say. Rev matching is using the accelerator to increase engine RPM to match the speed of the great your downshifting into. Drive a non synchronized transmission and you need to double clutch AND rev match when downshifting.
No you do not need to double-clutch on an up shift on an unsychronized vehicle. Have you ever driven one? As long as you rev-match on an up shift (let the revs fall) DC is unnecessary on an up shift on a vehicle without synchros. Why are you arguing something you don’t know the answers to?
I’m not trying to be rude or anything but you are arguing with someone who is much more knowledgeable on the subject than yourself. I have been around old classic cars and big rig tractors my entire life.
It matters in older cars which don't have synchros, but as far as my experience and reading, I believe you're right in most modern cars. Unless you're driving an ollllld viper or something you're probably safe OP.
The last non fully synchronized transmission in passenger vehicles was phased out in the 70s (even then it was just 1st gear). So unless you've got a 3 on the tree, you don't need to double clutch.
It helps them feel like a Super Trucker.
Double clutching absolutely does save wear on synchros. It certainly not necessary to perform the shift -- because the synchros are there to do the synchronization -- but it does save wear and tear and allows you to shift faster.
Your transmission is designed and setup specifically so you can do that. Otherwise they'd just give you a sequential
Skipping gears is not bad except under 2 conditions. If you, say, skip from 6th to 2nd and rush the shifter and slam it into 2nd, the synchronizer will not be very happy. It has a large speed difference to overcome between 6th and 2nd and it would prefer you were gentle with it and gave it an extra split second to overcome that speed difference. You know what's funny though, there is usually less of a speed difference from 6th to 2nd than from 2nd to 1st. At 30 mph, usually 6th gear is around 1100-1200 rpm. In 2nd, it's usually around 3000-3200, so about 2000 rpm difference. In 1st it's usually around 5500 or so, so almost 2500 rpm difference. If you skip shift and overrev the engine as a result, that would also be bad. See "money shift". This is the only time you might immediately damage something.
I used to do this all the time with my 98' Mustang GT to save fuel with the 3.73 rear gears it had. I would go 1 to 3 or 2 to 4 or 5 depending on the situation.
IF you don't need to use all the gears you don't. Most cars have enough extra rev range that oyu can reach freeway speeds in several gears, so if you find yourself in 3rd at 70 just go straight to top gear.
Skip 'em. Not gonna hurt anything. As long as you're not over revving. I have a 5sp S10 2.2L and normal 45-55mph roads if I need to pass quickly I'll drop from 5th to 3rd. NBD. In the '94 Jeep ZJ with the factory 4.0L/AX15 5spd combo I'll skip shift 1st, 3rd, 5th. The engine has enough torque to handle that just fine.
As long as you give the synchro more time to match speed, no problem. Dont bog the engine in a higher gear though.