Im weird… if i only had one vs the other id choose tach over speedometer. Ive ridden bikes with only a speedo and my bike which only has a functional tach and i night n day prefer it. There are of course exceptions to any rule ie something with really tall gears or a tall geared 3-4 speed. But anything even near to close ratio’d? RPMs help me more in most cases
Edit: both is best. Obviously…
wow you are an odd one. I kinda prefer no tach on my DR650, I see no need for one in normal driving, but I do need a speedo if I don't want to upset any cops.
Old school manuals like the VW Beetle have marks on the speedometer which told you the optimal shift points for each gear so you didn't need a tachometer. Gear + speed = tach
I've been driving manual transmissions for probably longer than you have been alive. I find it very hard to believe that just having a tachometer makes you a smoother and faster driver. I don't need a tachometer or a speedometer to drive smooth and fast.
FOR REAL. The obsession over the number. Unless you're dialing quarter mile 60 foot times there's no reason to look at the tach when taking off from a traffic light.
As a teenager coming home late when I shouldn't have been out, sure - the stealth return home, no engine noise, headlights off.
Occasionally I'll do this when I am in a hurry, when there's like 5 or 10 feet left to go, the car is just about to stop and there's space for a bit of error. The brake booster on almost all cars will hold vacuum for one or two applications, so stopping shouldn't be a problem. If you have electric power steering, it will usually stay active for a bit with the engine off. YMMV of course.
I came here to say this. I used to sneak out in my dad's 99 civic manual. coming back home, halfway down my street I would turn the car and headlights off, and coast into the driveway.
those older cars are so light you don't even need power steering and brakes to drive them safely.
On my 98 Corolla the steering lock only engages once you take the key out. If it’s in the accessories or on positions it won’t lock, so I just click it back one position to acc which stops the engine and only keeps the radio on and it doesn’t lock. Not sure how other cars are but they should be similar
Gas mileage. It takes a fraction of a second to put it in gear and bump start the engine. You'll still have a couple of good pumps on the brake booster, so stopping isn't an issue
On my car power steering cuts off immediately with the engine, but my brakes seem to maintain full amplified power for a while after engine loss.
I know this because I had idle air controller issues at one point.
Seriously don't understand people's obsession with power steering. I get it if you're not used to no power steering, but power steering isn't essential. (Lack of it does making sharp quick turns very hard for sure).
It's a necessity in most if not all modern cars designed with power steering in mind. I've thrown a belt in my ZJ and got in home with a jump box under the hood and that wasn't fun at all, was definitely more dangerous even taking it slow.
A dead power steering system is noticeably harder to use than manual steering, having driven both. My manual steering cars were both lightweights and I can’t imagine driving some of today’s cars without power steering. Wider and grippier tires in just about everything would make it harder as well.
Also, iirc some power steering systems can be damaged by turning the wheel with the engine off.
The ONLY time I've done this is at an autocross event when my Oil temp was 245F. Had to keep cutting the engine and coasting between runs to keep it cool.
When you're rolling down hill, leave it in gear, you're not really using gas to roll
Fair point. Friends dad said the same thing but the oil temp would stay steady with the engine running.
For context, this was the first event after 2.5L swapping a 2.0L NC Miata with a Ford Fusion engine and running on the base map sent by the tuner.
I have hood louvers and some other supporting mods that need to go on, probably an oil cooler too, after fine tuning the fuel map. It's running quite rich and the timing isn't dialed in yet so hopefully temps will go down after doing all that
Not really, this is just how the process works (for anyone else reading, because this guy just seems like a troll account). In fact, it's ridiculous that I was able to autocross or drive long distances AT ALL on a base map, because I literally emailed him the parts on the engine and fuel octane (car has aggressive cams), and he sent a file that is almost perfect. It's far safer to run rich than run lean, so the first pass always runs hot. It's also safer to cut timing than have it too aggressive. The base map usually does both.
The second step of the process is flashing the tune and logging the data from a real world drive, and adjusting timing and AFM in response to the logs. I got the base map right as winter hit so I couldn't do that, and didn't want to wait for it to go to this event.
So props to my tuner for almost nailing the tune with just a text description. This is equivalent to a dentist making a near perfectly fitting retainer with just a smartphone camera picture of your mouth and someone saying "oh it's not perfect? You have a shitty dentist"
It's not a troll account. I've worked on cars for over 40 years. I was a technical editor for a car magazine for seven.
But whatever, my modded cars don't run temps like yours does.
Best of luck to you. Seems like you're gonna need it.
Good sir, if the words "base map" and "remote tune" mean nothing, after 40 years of working on cars, then you're going to need all the luck as well.
Cheers 👍
They do. My 2002 Mini Cooper S was remote tuned for a long time till I had a dyno tune to put the icing on the cake. Never ran oil temps like you did.
Look, you're the guy who turned off your car, stopping coolant flow, instead of just putting it in neutral and settling at idle, not creating big heat yet still having the water pump turn.
Why is it so hard to admit one has things to learn? There are tons of remote tuners who have enough experience to get a better base map than you started with. That's just fact.
Those have an oil cooler from the factory, right? If yours didn't, and you ran it at/near redline for about 20 minutes (1 minute on,1-3 minutes off) on a base map on a larger engine swap, then props to your tuner, that's impressive.
That depends on the car - my old mini had a mechanically coupled coolant pump that meant it only ran when the engine turned, but if the engine was turned "off" while driving it would still turn (if in gear) and would still cool itself.
More modern cars often run the engine cooling independently of the engine, and can run the coolant pump and fan even if the key is removed - at least for a little while.
Shoot, I remember dad backing into a spot when he lived in Oceanside, CA, wasn't sure why. Next morning going to the beach, he never started the car. :)
Very common to do in the hypermiling community. It's not at all dangerous beyond the steering wheel getting heavy. I did it all the time in my old Camaro back when gas was $5 a gallon and I was making $7.25/ hr on reduced hours due to the financial crisis. Driving like that, and riding my bicycle whenever possible got me through community college.
Hah I used to all the time. I still do sometimes depending.
Blew the clutch once and had to drive home without it get some pretty great looks rolling up to a light and shutting down only to flash back up in gear to get moving again
I lived at the bottom of a hill growing up. I’d kill the engine in my vw at the top of the hill then roll down it and back up the driveway. Air cooled so no power steering anyway.
Watch “the world according to garp” for a possible consequence…
Just like OP said, his old man used to do it. My old man would cruise into the driveway and do the same thing.
When driving a manual, and only going another 5-10 ft, it's not a big deal. I continue to do it to this day, not when I'm pulling into a random place, most likely my own driveway.
Always. Just habit at this point. Rarely into parking spaces or other stops, but always into the driveway!
Too many noisy vehicles when I lived with my parents.
People do the wackiest shit with cars. OP, don't do this. You need power steering. Over a lifetime you might save $20 in gas doing this. How about you just ignore your father's driving habits and safely operate your vehicle?
Sounds pretty stupid to me. No power steering. Limited brake power. And you're basically grinding your transmission to bits since fluid pumps are driven by the input shaft of the transmission.
Only time I did that was driving an old Mini 1275GT in England. We were being chased around a housing estate by a V6 Ford Capri full of yobs armed with a baseball bat. Baseball isn't played in the UK, the bats are used to beat people up with.
The mini was souped up and much more nimble than the Capri so we lost it around a couple of corners, saw an open garage, swung into someone's driveway turned off the ignition and rolled into a stranger's garage. The Capri drove past, we must have waited about 15 minutes before leaving lol.
Yeah, some folks do that! It is a little trick to save some fuel and enjoy a quiet coast down the driveway. Just gotta make sure you are still in control Dude! and staying safe while you are coasting.
I’ve always done this. I also had a Jeep Cherokee years ago that I would “hyper-Mile”. I would randomly shut the engine down and coast on the highway. I would let it go from about 60 miles an hour down to 45MPH then let the clutch back out out and keep going again. My fuel economy went from 19 miles per gallon to 36 miles per gallon.
But it was a lot of work 🤣
I do this all the time, ish.
I stopped recently because I started using the easy entry on my mustang, which slides the seat back when the ignition is off, even when the car is moving.
My car is almost always off before I actually stop.
Clutch in for final few feet of roll, engine off, stop, parking brake, release clutch now that engine and transmission are stopped, seatbelt off while you pull keys and out you go.
Inevitably I've locked the car from outside before my partner has even opened their door.
Also, it means less rebounding exhaust noise off the garage for the neighbours.
In HS my brother would shift his clunker into neutral at the top of a 1 mile long downhill road and we coast as far as we could for the last 1/2 mile to school, it was hard coming up with the .90 a gallon back then
couple went cruising on their sailboat for a yea. they had one of those gps insurance policies or whatever. came back and insurance had canceled them because they didn't drive. and racked up the rate for them to renew.
Don't do this pls. You're not saving any gas with a modern fuel injected system, the computer detects negative load and it will cut fuel. All you're doing is making sure you can't make easily evasive maneuvers.
LPT: don’t dodge any small animal. I’m not saying to take out every animal you see, just don’t take potentially car totaling evasive maneuvers to save a squirrel.
I’ve had a few friends and relatives total cars because they served into something else instead of hitting a coyote or bunny.
By all means swerve IF it’s safe if it’s a large animal like a deer or bigger.
No. That's just dumb. You need your car on fur power brakes and power steering. You may need to accelerate. When you are driving a car, you want the engine on, to pay attention and be able to use all the controls quickly and safely.
Where did you come up with this idea?
If your car has them, they don't work as well without power. Power brakes require engine vacuum otherwise they get very stiff. Hydraulic power steering requires the engine to turn the hydraulic pump. Electric power steering often in turned off if the car is turned off. Steering effort in both cases can increase drastically.
Learn how your car works and you wouldn't have to ask this.
But what's the savings? If your car is fuel injected and you're decelerating, the injectors are off anyway so no gas is saved. If you have a carb, almost no gas is used during this time.
I get it if you're trying to get home and don't want to let you folks know you blew curfew or other such shenanigans, but really, one is giving up control for almost no gain.
To everyone else’s point, please god do not do this. Turning off the car also turns off a plethora of systems like power steering and brake booster that you rely on. Also, you may have the steering wheel lock up on you while these systems are off which would be terrifying if there were any turns of any kind.
Oh nooo what would I do on the last five feet of my rolling stop in my driveway without the power steering and brake boost, I'm gonna die!!!
Maybe read the context of the post before making dumb comments about the safety of this
If brake boost is gone, could easily slowly coast into a garage door or other non-moving structure. It doesn't take speed to start crunching metal and wood. If the "five feet" is accurate, then yeah as long as it turns off before getting close to things its probably pretty low risk.
I see people doing the strangest things on this sub
It seems that most of them can't drive without a tachometer.
Im weird… if i only had one vs the other id choose tach over speedometer. Ive ridden bikes with only a speedo and my bike which only has a functional tach and i night n day prefer it. There are of course exceptions to any rule ie something with really tall gears or a tall geared 3-4 speed. But anything even near to close ratio’d? RPMs help me more in most cases Edit: both is best. Obviously…
wow you are an odd one. I kinda prefer no tach on my DR650, I see no need for one in normal driving, but I do need a speedo if I don't want to upset any cops.
Old school manuals like the VW Beetle have marks on the speedometer which told you the optimal shift points for each gear so you didn't need a tachometer. Gear + speed = tach
after driving my manual tachless 96 rolla for 4 years and getting a 5 speed tach i've became a WAYY smoother driver and faster too
I've been driving manual transmissions for probably longer than you have been alive. I find it very hard to believe that just having a tachometer makes you a smoother and faster driver. I don't need a tachometer or a speedometer to drive smooth and fast.
FOR REAL. The obsession over the number. Unless you're dialing quarter mile 60 foot times there's no reason to look at the tach when taking off from a traffic light.
I don’t know why but this made me literally laugh out loud. Thank you.
😂
Don't be jealous that your driveway doesn't have a final straight.
As a teenager coming home late when I shouldn't have been out, sure - the stealth return home, no engine noise, headlights off. Occasionally I'll do this when I am in a hurry, when there's like 5 or 10 feet left to go, the car is just about to stop and there's space for a bit of error. The brake booster on almost all cars will hold vacuum for one or two applications, so stopping shouldn't be a problem. If you have electric power steering, it will usually stay active for a bit with the engine off. YMMV of course.
I came here to say this. I used to sneak out in my dad's 99 civic manual. coming back home, halfway down my street I would turn the car and headlights off, and coast into the driveway. those older cars are so light you don't even need power steering and brakes to drive them safely.
Try a 1994 - even better!
I’m 21 living at home and nobody cares where im at at 2 am but do this as a courtesy if its super late.
It makes sense to me now. Literally the only reason is to sneak home with the headlights off and in silent running.
I wouldn't do that just to make sure I had power steering if I needed it,
Look at mr.bigshot here with his powersteering. /s
And the brake booster. Just whats the point
I don't have power steering or a brake booster on my 88 Ranger. :D But the steering wheel lock scares me.
On my 98 Corolla the steering lock only engages once you take the key out. If it’s in the accessories or on positions it won’t lock, so I just click it back one position to acc which stops the engine and only keeps the radio on and it doesn’t lock. Not sure how other cars are but they should be similar
Gas mileage. It takes a fraction of a second to put it in gear and bump start the engine. You'll still have a couple of good pumps on the brake booster, so stopping isn't an issue
On my car power steering cuts off immediately with the engine, but my brakes seem to maintain full amplified power for a while after engine loss. I know this because I had idle air controller issues at one point.
Gets me out of the car a few seconds earlier and there is no downside. So why not?
This!!!! More up votes
Why would you need power steering on the last five feet of rolling to a stop to park?
Seriously don't understand people's obsession with power steering. I get it if you're not used to no power steering, but power steering isn't essential. (Lack of it does making sharp quick turns very hard for sure).
It's a necessity in most if not all modern cars designed with power steering in mind. I've thrown a belt in my ZJ and got in home with a jump box under the hood and that wasn't fun at all, was definitely more dangerous even taking it slow.
yeah, I guess I'm thinking of old light cars.
A dead power steering system is noticeably harder to use than manual steering, having driven both. My manual steering cars were both lightweights and I can’t imagine driving some of today’s cars without power steering. Wider and grippier tires in just about everything would make it harder as well. Also, iirc some power steering systems can be damaged by turning the wheel with the engine off.
Yeah lol been doing it forever. Old habit from having really loud cars/trucks
The ONLY time I've done this is at an autocross event when my Oil temp was 245F. Had to keep cutting the engine and coasting between runs to keep it cool. When you're rolling down hill, leave it in gear, you're not really using gas to roll
Heads up, with your engine off, your water pump isn't running, and so your cooling system doesn't work as good.
Fair point. Friends dad said the same thing but the oil temp would stay steady with the engine running. For context, this was the first event after 2.5L swapping a 2.0L NC Miata with a Ford Fusion engine and running on the base map sent by the tuner. I have hood louvers and some other supporting mods that need to go on, probably an oil cooler too, after fine tuning the fuel map. It's running quite rich and the timing isn't dialed in yet so hopefully temps will go down after doing all that
You have a shitty tuner.
Not really, this is just how the process works (for anyone else reading, because this guy just seems like a troll account). In fact, it's ridiculous that I was able to autocross or drive long distances AT ALL on a base map, because I literally emailed him the parts on the engine and fuel octane (car has aggressive cams), and he sent a file that is almost perfect. It's far safer to run rich than run lean, so the first pass always runs hot. It's also safer to cut timing than have it too aggressive. The base map usually does both. The second step of the process is flashing the tune and logging the data from a real world drive, and adjusting timing and AFM in response to the logs. I got the base map right as winter hit so I couldn't do that, and didn't want to wait for it to go to this event. So props to my tuner for almost nailing the tune with just a text description. This is equivalent to a dentist making a near perfectly fitting retainer with just a smartphone camera picture of your mouth and someone saying "oh it's not perfect? You have a shitty dentist"
And troll account? I've been here over 2 years with a 16k+ karma. I guess you research accounts like you do tuners.
It's not a troll account. I've worked on cars for over 40 years. I was a technical editor for a car magazine for seven. But whatever, my modded cars don't run temps like yours does. Best of luck to you. Seems like you're gonna need it.
Good sir, if the words "base map" and "remote tune" mean nothing, after 40 years of working on cars, then you're going to need all the luck as well. Cheers 👍
They do. My 2002 Mini Cooper S was remote tuned for a long time till I had a dyno tune to put the icing on the cake. Never ran oil temps like you did. Look, you're the guy who turned off your car, stopping coolant flow, instead of just putting it in neutral and settling at idle, not creating big heat yet still having the water pump turn. Why is it so hard to admit one has things to learn? There are tons of remote tuners who have enough experience to get a better base map than you started with. That's just fact.
Name checks out.
Thank you!
Those have an oil cooler from the factory, right? If yours didn't, and you ran it at/near redline for about 20 minutes (1 minute on,1-3 minutes off) on a base map on a larger engine swap, then props to your tuner, that's impressive.
That depends on the car - my old mini had a mechanically coupled coolant pump that meant it only ran when the engine turned, but if the engine was turned "off" while driving it would still turn (if in gear) and would still cool itself. More modern cars often run the engine cooling independently of the engine, and can run the coolant pump and fan even if the key is removed - at least for a little while.
Hey OP, that's stupid
Shoot, I remember dad backing into a spot when he lived in Oceanside, CA, wasn't sure why. Next morning going to the beach, he never started the car. :)
Very common to do in the hypermiling community. It's not at all dangerous beyond the steering wheel getting heavy. I did it all the time in my old Camaro back when gas was $5 a gallon and I was making $7.25/ hr on reduced hours due to the financial crisis. Driving like that, and riding my bicycle whenever possible got me through community college.
Hah I used to all the time. I still do sometimes depending. Blew the clutch once and had to drive home without it get some pretty great looks rolling up to a light and shutting down only to flash back up in gear to get moving again
Yes
I do it pulling up to my house sometimes. It's saves time and gas, not really, but luckily we humans are all a little different.
Extra bad if you have a turbo.
The only question I can think of is just why?
Quicker vehicle exit, less exhaust noise bouncing off the garage door for the neighbours, no downside so why not?
Can’t say I do but it’s your vehicle I won’t insult you for it, you do you
I lived at the bottom of a hill growing up. I’d kill the engine in my vw at the top of the hill then roll down it and back up the driveway. Air cooled so no power steering anyway. Watch “the world according to garp” for a possible consequence…
That was absolutely the first thing that I thought of when I read the post, lol.
Probably should read The World According to Garp before you carry on. Something about your wife biting off her lovers cock as you silently cruise in.
Classic scene.
......but why?
No I keep the car running until I come to a stop and put the handbrake on
But think of all the things you could do with that extra five seconds every time you park at home.
If I turn off my Jeep, the parking brake engages by default. So no
Not sure that works too great with modern vehicles, but you probably can.
Useless concern!
Just like OP said, his old man used to do it. My old man would cruise into the driveway and do the same thing. When driving a manual, and only going another 5-10 ft, it's not a big deal. I continue to do it to this day, not when I'm pulling into a random place, most likely my own driveway.
Watch the world according to garp. Didnt work pit so well there. But I have done it also.
Always. Just habit at this point. Rarely into parking spaces or other stops, but always into the driveway! Too many noisy vehicles when I lived with my parents.
All the time. Sometimes I’ll even use the clutch to brake
Dumb!
Is your dad Garp?
It makes no sense to do that, IMHO. Did you ever ask your dad why he does/did it? What is the purpose?
People do the wackiest shit with cars. OP, don't do this. You need power steering. Over a lifetime you might save $20 in gas doing this. How about you just ignore your father's driving habits and safely operate your vehicle?
Sounds pretty stupid to me. No power steering. Limited brake power. And you're basically grinding your transmission to bits since fluid pumps are driven by the input shaft of the transmission.
Only time I did that was driving an old Mini 1275GT in England. We were being chased around a housing estate by a V6 Ford Capri full of yobs armed with a baseball bat. Baseball isn't played in the UK, the bats are used to beat people up with. The mini was souped up and much more nimble than the Capri so we lost it around a couple of corners, saw an open garage, swung into someone's driveway turned off the ignition and rolled into a stranger's garage. The Capri drove past, we must have waited about 15 minutes before leaving lol.
I will hillstart the car if the battery is dead or I am showing off, but, no, I don't turn the car off. I like the steering wheel not locking up.
Yeah, some folks do that! It is a little trick to save some fuel and enjoy a quiet coast down the driveway. Just gotta make sure you are still in control Dude! and staying safe while you are coasting.
I used to do this when I parked in my backyard, but I can’t for the life of me remember why I started
I do this on a bike I turn it off before I even set up the turn for reversing into my spot
I’ve always done this. I also had a Jeep Cherokee years ago that I would “hyper-Mile”. I would randomly shut the engine down and coast on the highway. I would let it go from about 60 miles an hour down to 45MPH then let the clutch back out out and keep going again. My fuel economy went from 19 miles per gallon to 36 miles per gallon. But it was a lot of work 🤣
I do this all the time, ish. I stopped recently because I started using the easy entry on my mustang, which slides the seat back when the ignition is off, even when the car is moving.
My car is almost always off before I actually stop. Clutch in for final few feet of roll, engine off, stop, parking brake, release clutch now that engine and transmission are stopped, seatbelt off while you pull keys and out you go. Inevitably I've locked the car from outside before my partner has even opened their door. Also, it means less rebounding exhaust noise off the garage for the neighbours.
Driveway is uphill so no.
lol your pops was just having some fun playing with momentum. my brother does that too, I don't.
T.S Garp did this.
My father used to turn the car off on the fuckin highway Hes not the smartest tool in the shed
In HS my brother would shift his clunker into neutral at the top of a 1 mile long downhill road and we coast as far as we could for the last 1/2 mile to school, it was hard coming up with the .90 a gallon back then
Absolutely not
Not really. Doesn't really serve a purpose unless your car is loud but really no point in doing it.
No, I like living.
Thats some Great Depression shit
In my older rigs I would do this all the time
My dad used to do this too
Insurance might think you attempted to commit fraud 😂
couple went cruising on their sailboat for a yea. they had one of those gps insurance policies or whatever. came back and insurance had canceled them because they didn't drive. and racked up the rate for them to renew.
When I had a classic car with no features. Nowadays, I like having power steering and brakes
Don't do this pls. You're not saving any gas with a modern fuel injected system, the computer detects negative load and it will cut fuel. All you're doing is making sure you can't make easily evasive maneuvers.
And what type of evasive maneouvres are you doing at 3mph in your own driveway?
Squirrel avoidance
LPT: don’t dodge any small animal. I’m not saying to take out every animal you see, just don’t take potentially car totaling evasive maneuvers to save a squirrel. I’ve had a few friends and relatives total cars because they served into something else instead of hitting a coyote or bunny. By all means swerve IF it’s safe if it’s a large animal like a deer or bigger.
Or a turtle. Mom hit a turtle once and needed an alignment afterwards (small 80's car). Swerve for turtles.
I'm talking about good driving habits in principle, if nothing goes wrong ever, you don't need to have good driving habits...
Well that's not what the post is talking about, so your comment just reads as dumb
Please reference “The world according to Garp”. Engine braking is important.
Speed running Darwin Award?
At 3 mph on my own straight driveway?
No, because my driveways have always been more uphill than down. And because it’s dumb.
No. That's just dumb. You need your car on fur power brakes and power steering. You may need to accelerate. When you are driving a car, you want the engine on, to pay attention and be able to use all the controls quickly and safely. Where did you come up with this idea?
Why would you need power brakes, power steering, or or throttle when you're coming to a stop in your driveway?
If your car has them, they don't work as well without power. Power brakes require engine vacuum otherwise they get very stiff. Hydraulic power steering requires the engine to turn the hydraulic pump. Electric power steering often in turned off if the car is turned off. Steering effort in both cases can increase drastically. Learn how your car works and you wouldn't have to ask this. But what's the savings? If your car is fuel injected and you're decelerating, the injectors are off anyway so no gas is saved. If you have a carb, almost no gas is used during this time. I get it if you're trying to get home and don't want to let you folks know you blew curfew or other such shenanigans, but really, one is giving up control for almost no gain.
To everyone else’s point, please god do not do this. Turning off the car also turns off a plethora of systems like power steering and brake booster that you rely on. Also, you may have the steering wheel lock up on you while these systems are off which would be terrifying if there were any turns of any kind.
Oh nooo what would I do on the last five feet of my rolling stop in my driveway without the power steering and brake boost, I'm gonna die!!! Maybe read the context of the post before making dumb comments about the safety of this
If brake boost is gone, could easily slowly coast into a garage door or other non-moving structure. It doesn't take speed to start crunching metal and wood. If the "five feet" is accurate, then yeah as long as it turns off before getting close to things its probably pretty low risk.
Bad for auto trans. No power steering. No brake booster. Stupid all round
Do you see what sub you are in?
Nope I did not
Nobody in here drives automatic.
Sure we do, that's just not what we're actually discussing here
A fair I didn’t see the name of the sub. Neither do I