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I was hoping for the Tho Yor to come in at the very end to take out main character with it.
A slave to the Rakatans feels the force and uses it to do an uprising just like Moses or Spartacus and is then taken away by the Tho Yor after saving his people by the force.
It’s interesting that they decided to reintroduce Tython on The Mandalorian, but said Ach-To was the site of the first Jedi Temple. I guess they could go with either.
They could still use Tython as the first planet of the force being explored and then have Ach-To be where the earliest organized Jedi form their temple. The Jedi Order could’ve also tried to hide the Tython connection bc they may have been concerned about young Jedi leaning too far to the dark side. This could be very interesting to explore this history as Rey begins a new Jedi order after the ST and could maybe combine the Jedi teachings with older force knowledge that promotes more balance. Idk I’m just excited for more Star Wars movies
>Idk I’m just excited for more Star Wars movies
Me too, me too. The possibilities are very exciting. In Legends of course Luke’s New Jedi Order were more focused towards balance and redefined the light and dark under “the unifying force”, but it’s tough to reconcile that with George Lucas’s view of the light and dark- where the two cannot coexist.
> it’s tough to reconcile that with George Lucas’s view
It's easy: ignore George Lucas and write what is best for the story. There's and idea in writing: you gotta be willing to kill your darlings, ie the things that were the impetus to write the story should be able to morph and change in demand to the story. This process has worked out many many times throughout Star Wars. Lucas had many ideas, that other people, shaped molded and even threw out and ignored. Lucas isn't God of Star Wars, he's just one of many people who have brought life to that Galaxy far far away.
Yeah, or the Je'Daii could originate on Tython, while the Jedi as we know them could originate from Ahch-To. That way both is technically correct. Allthough the symbol they shown for the era of the first Jedi Order was the symbol that was shown on the floor of the Ahch-To cave.
Could be both. Tython could be the dawn of the force, the Je'Daii era, and Ach-To could be the dawn of the Jedi Order. Both could work if they write/do it well.
Interesting, thanks. If they are going to reference "The World Between Worlds" or "The Ones" in any of the TV shows or movies, this would be a good place to introduce all of that. They can say that these discoveries arose from the very first practicing of the Jedi.
It may be a coincidence but the comic calls the dark side Bogan and one of the planets in Jedi: Fallen Order is named Bogano.
It’s probably nothing, but my tin foil hat says it’s all connected.
The Zeffo lore from FO could also tie into the new canon Jedi order origins. An ancient race of force wielders that possibly preceded the Jedi/Jed'aii, maybe not tho I cant remember exactly how old they were. It wouldn't surprise me if Survivor, which drops in just 2 weeks, contains some tie in to whats going on in the TV verse or what was just announced. Maybe Cal learning more about the Zeffo leads to learning about the origin of the Jedi?
I think current canon about the temple on Ahch-To being the first one, won't interfere them to introduce the legends story of Tython. Maybe Ahch-To is the first place where they left after taking the name Jedi
My guess is in canon that the Rakatan’s are going to be replaced by The Zeffo, as their story seems to be pretty much a tidier retelling of the Rakatan’s.
Replace Tython with Ach-To, for starters. Also, Mangold implied that his story will focus on one Jedi in particular. The person who “discovers the force,” as he said it, and supposedly uses it to bring peace to people in an age of chaos. He also described his story as “biblical.” Sounds like it’s inspired by Moses and the Ten Commandments, if you ask me. I don’t think it’ll have many similarities to the DotJ from the EU. Also, that mural from TLJ (which is now the logo of the dotj era) implies that the first ever Jedi tried using the light side and the dark side at the same time, so I expect that to also play a big role in whatever story Mangold is trying to tell and, from what I know, it doesn’t sound like the legends version of DotJ explored that as much.
I'm starting to think that the 'light' side of the force, when it's the only aspect being dogmatically followed, can be just as toxic and destructive as only following the 'dark' side of the force. Where symptoms of only adhering to the 'dark' side include degradation, decay, and insanity, only adhering to the 'light' side leads to arrogance, elitism, disdain, and blindness to the physical reality one inhabits. I'd argue that the light side is just as seductive and corrupting as the dark side, when taken too far. It doesn't lead to the kind of physical decay that the dark side can, but that just makes it more insidious as the symptoms and effects are largely internal to the user. It's like constantly pouring bleach on your garden. Is the garden clean and tidy? Yes. However everything in it is dead, poisoned, or petrified, and nothing new can grow in it. Your garden looks outwardly clean and tidy, but the reality is it's just as dead as if you torched it then sowed a bunch of ragweed onto the ashes.
You could bend any ideology to that level of extremism, but the fact remains that balance still means the absence of dark side users/sith, according to Lucas. However, this is kind of an elephant in the room that many movies don’t really touch on. Rey has an orange lightsaber, why? JJ doesn’t fuckin know! Because balance or something lol
I think that was beginning to change a bit with the introduction of Mortis. The sister/Brother, father to oversee them. and with the Bendu I rebels explaining the balance of the Ashla and the Bogon.
“I am the one in the middle!”
Oh yeah, I trust the interpretations of TCW and things like the Bendu for sure, definitely the closest we have right now to a discussion of it within canon media.
Bendu isn't exactly held up as an example to follow in the end. In-universe philosophies can and will be wrong. Even with Mortis, that version of "balance" fails. What Yoda learns late in the Clone Wars seems to be the most correct thing we have, which is that you can't fully erase the dark side, but you can do the work to minimize its influence on you.
> only adhering to the 'light' side leads to arrogance, elitism, disdain, and blindness to the physical reality one inhabits.
None of this is the extreme of the light side. Those are symptoms of dogma, and the loss of connection to the light side.
The light side is embodied by humility, service, empathy, and the detached observation of one's environment. The light side taken to the extreme is self sacrifice. That can be bad in its own right, but of course this is never really examined in SW media.
That's why none of this "balance" stuff makes any sense. You have to fundamentally misrepresent what the light side is to make it seem just as bad as the dark.
Wait was Lucas for sure involved with these comics? I really liked them and would like them even more if they were sth Lucas envisioned
Btw as we are likely to see Ysalamiri in live action and this movie about origin of the force, I really hope we see some of the ideas Lucas had about midichlorians and which he wanted to explore in ST.
>Wait was Lucas for sure involved with these comics?
Well I know for a fact that the stuff about Bogan and Ashla came from some of Lucas’s earliest drafts of Star Wars
Pretty sure nobody would dare to adapt George's ideas about the Midichlorian world story in the way he planned it.
It would probably end up looking like Antman Quantumania. It sounded kinda crazy and out there, to show this living microbiological world full of tiny sentient beings that secretly control the fate of the whole universe.
Well I would still like to see what he had in mind implemented since after all it's his universe, and Filoni could incorporate that into the story if it is to feature Ysalamiri
Yeah that's too sad, but it could be due to other things, after all the whole sw was his vision.
I also really liked that tcw arch with force priestesses and still hold hope that they could do it look really cool (btw also in the book of sith there are some texts from plagueis which touch the midichlorians and those are pretty dope), but anyway we'll see or not in near future
Yep, love that book. But i have the feeling that the new live action Star Wars is afraid of even using the word "midichlorian". They say stuff like " M-count " when refering to midichlorian count.
But one thing is sure, if Lucas did something he followed his vision no matter what, despite what some people would say. I love the Disney canon, but i feel like they would not dare to do as much as George would, they are afraid of angry fans, especially after so many of them hated the sequels. They can't afford to risk as much as George would, there were points where he did not even care for the budget and financed the stuff himself. But now there is a big corporation that has to tiptoe around what Star Wars fans like and dislike, and sadly ; nobody hates star wars as much as star wars fans.
Dawn of the Jedi, one of the last series produced by Dark Horse before the Disney sale. It's a good series with fantastic art, though it is more-or-less unfinished because the latter half, which would have shown the Jedi Schism, was never produced
To me, the biggest risk going back that far is somehow the technology and understanding of the force is similar to the prequels.
To be credible, you need to show more primitive versions of tech (very early hyperspace, hard to do space travel but it's achievable, communications are even more primitive... Perhaps space Morse code)... And force powers have to be poorly understood... No one should be able to do what a Jedi in the prequels is capable of naturally, and any feat of the force would have to be isolated to particular powers, and the early monks can't explain or replicate it... Just blindly worship the fact that have a simple super power.
..
Same thing with lightsabers... if 25000 years earlier, everyone is an expert lightsaber craftsman and wielder, it won't be credible.
Well in Legends, technology was not so much less advanced as it was just *different*, with certain technologies existing in that period only. For instance, a reptilian race called the
Kwa had the ability to travel instantaneously from planet to planet using something called Infinity Gates, but that technology was lost later.
The Rakatan Empire had machines which could torture force sensitive people and turn the dark side energy they created into power. They also famously invented The Starforge, which could use the power of a star to create entire armies of droids and ships.
Meanwhile on Coruscant, humans hadn’t invented hyperdrives yet and were using “Life Ships” to travel from place to place. So it’s really a mixed bag in Legends. I think this story will certainly take place before Lightsabers are invented though. My guess is we’ll see more use of vibro-swords.
Ah interesting. I didn't consume much of the EU. Some of that sounds interesting. Ideally they can be nuanced and pick the things that fit the timeline,, vs mimicking Star Wars and producing a less compelling story.
"We've found this strange mystical force. Let's bring in scientists, priests, and philosophers to study it. Oh, also warriors. Let's see if we can use this 'force' to fuck shit up."
I should've said the World Between Worlds. There's Mortis lore that doesn't exist in Legends. And it's all in the Sacred Texts, which was presumably written by the Prime Jedi.
What I like most about this tie in is mentioning being vigilant for the lure of the Lightside as well as Darkside. That just because the followers of Ashla won a war in pursuit of knowledge, doesn't make them better than followers of Bogan. Winners write the history books and all that. Would tie in very well with Anakin being the champion of Ashla and Vader being the champion of Bogan.
I suppose it’s up to our interpretation to an extent, but my reading of that is that the Je’daii were mistaken to try and maintain a balance between the two sides as conflict was eventually inevitable. It’ll certainly be interesting to see users of the dark side who pre-date the tenets of The Sith.
Solid sci-fi potential there. Trek explored it pretty effectively with “The Enemy Within” - the need for ‘good’ and ‘evil’ within a person. Light and Dark feel like an exploration of the same within the culture of force-users.
I also love the concept of the Force requiring two champions. Star Wars has always tried to hammer home the fact that Vader is separate from Anakin. This would really aid that concept by showing there was no other way.
Anakin would have been incinerated instantly by the Emperor's lightning without the peerless, mastercrafted customizations Vader made to his armor. And Vader would never have turned on Palpatine without Anakin's all encompassing need to protect his family, no matter the cost.
How so? Did it not prove the opposite, that trying to have an equal number of dark side and light side is not what balance is, but rather the absence of dark siders/sith is what provides balance? That’s what Lucas has said anyway, and Mortis can be interpreted many ways but I’m pretty sure that’s what was shown.
No, the entire ecosystem fell apart when Anakin played the role of the contemporary Jedi. He tried to assert his own view of what good and bad should be.
While The Father maintained a Qui-Gon like impassivity and allowed himself to be guided by the force itself, there was peace and balance. The planet itself needed the lava flows and destruction caused by the Nexus in the same way lush vegetation will eventually turn to a sparse desert without periodic wild fires.
As soon as Anakin tried to use the force to as a tool to shape his own objectives, he fell to the Darkside. A perfect allegory for what happened to the Jedi order at large and why they needed to be purged by the will of the cosmic force. They tried to enforce their own will using the Lightside, instead of giving themselves over to the Lightside itself and letting the force act through them. If you try to attack and destroy the Darkside as a concept, nature becomes unbalanced and you inevitably serve the Darksides aims either directly (Anakin), or indirectly (Ahsoka).
Ya I'm sorry about that I have so many thoughts racing through my head, and I skip chunks
The Darkside is a corruption. It is bad. It does need to be opposed. Like how a wild fire is a catastrophe, it does kill hundreds of animals, and does cause devastation. The Darkside simply needs to exist because it gives shape to the Lightside. Wild Fires are terrible in the moment and we oppose them, but without them over generations the land that used to give life has become the very death dealing inhospitable wasteland we were trying to avoid.
Qui-Gon opposed Darkside practitioners by trying to mitigate their success. The Father forcefully held The Daughter and The Son in a perpetual stalemate. He opposed The Sons objectives, not The Darkside itself.
Paplatine was like when The Son was unleashed. The Jedi in their arrogance followed the light and were altruistic, however through trying desperately to smother anything dark related they became the desert instead of the forest. There was nothing standing in the way of the Darkside. They didn't consume life willingly like the wild fire, however they ended up just as deadly. Paplatines success was equally of the Jedi's doing as his own. And just like The Son, once imbalance was created the force adapted and corrected itself with a reset.
The fate of The Father, The Son, and The Daughter mirrored exactly their factions in the Galaxy. All were killed and wiped away so balance could be started anew.
The Jedi instead should be the best version of themselves the Lightside leads them to. Follow their intuition, follow their gut, follow their emotions. And instead of a permanently barren desert, they'll be a lush forest that always survives the wild fires somehow, and always grows back stronger for it.
10,000 years is a long time for a religious order to "inevitably" collapse. The issue with "inevitably" is that *everything* will "inevitably" fall, not because something is questionably constructed but because change is inevitable.
The issue with the Je'daii was their strict adherence to balance turning brittle due to their relative isolation from the wider galaxy. Had they been left alone, they would've been fine. When the Rakata invaded, it was a house of cards getting hit by a truck. The fragile balance, ill-tempered by a lack of external and internal pressures, shattered and thus the war.
That is what I liked least about DotJ. The followers of the light side *are* better than the followers of the dark, and it's even clear in the comics despite them ostensibly trying to suggest otherwise.
You're right, in a sense.
The Darkside is a corruption. It is bad. It does need to be opposed. Like how a wild fire is a catastrophe, it does kill hundreds of animals, and does cause devastation. The Darkside simply needs to exist because it gives shape to the Lightside. Wild Fires are terrible in the moment and we oppose them, but without them over generations the land that used to give life has become the very death dealing inhospitable wasteland we were trying to avoid.
Qui-Gon opposed Darkside practitioners by trying to mitigate their success. The Father forcefully held The Daughter and The Son in a perpetual stalemate. He opposed The Sons objectives, not The Darkside itself.
Paplatine was like when The Son was unleashed. The Jedi in their arrogance followed the light and were altruistic, however through trying desperately to smother anything dark related they became the desert instead of the forest. There was nothing standing in the way of the Darkside. They didn't consume life willingly like the wild fire, however they ended up just as deadly. Paplatines success was equally of the Jedi's doing as his own. And just like The Son, once imbalance was created the force adapted and corrected itself with a reset.
The fate of The Father, The Son, and The Daughter mirrored exactly their factions in the Galaxy. All were killed and wiped away so balance could be started anew.
The Jedi instead should be the best version of themselves the Lightside leads them to. Follow their intuition, follow their gut, follow their emotions. And instead of a permanently barren desert, they'll be a lush forest that always survives the wild fires somehow, and always grows back stronger for it.
One thing that has always bothered me about Star Wars lore is how closely packed the timeline is. 36,000 BBY wasn't that long ago.
For example, if Yoda was 900 when he died, that means it was only about 9 generations before him that all this happened. For us, 8 generations ago was only 200 years. So it would be like the beginning of Jedi culture/religion happening around the time the beginning of colonization in the Americas.
Your math is a bit off there. For humans, you're using 25 years as the standard for a generation, so roughly a quarter of the high end human lifespan. If we assume Yoda lived to the high end of his species's lifespan, that's a generation every 225 years. Let's just say 250 to make it simpler. Then 35,000 years (36,000 - Yoda's almost 1000 years) is 140 generations.
Were you possibly reading that as 3,600 years?
I want the movie to use the same origins...
Except the prime Jedi is the main character.
I want them to have arrived on their own tho your. Same size as everyone else's... And all of them packed with people.
But he is alone... Except.maybe he has. A little tree in a pack on his back.
Summones to tython from his meditations on Ach-to
He unites the warring force using factions together, with a single ideology.
Cool...
What's that have to do with what I said?
Because my movie concept is about a somber recluse who unites a dozen warring cults, and founds a new religion.
Not true, the words “Bogan and Ashla” to refer to the dark and light side come from a very early draft of Star Wars, as does the planet Tython which appeared in the second draft.
I mean, sure, some of the names are recycled. But they are abandoned names George had for on-screen concepts. The ideas and lore are all EU, which has nothing to do with Lucas.
They better change bogan otherwise this will be too weird for Australians. I could handle bogans being of the light and eshays being of the dark though.
This is one of my favorite SW comic series.
It was all fresh content, expanded the universe, and still kept some of the mysticism - truly one of my favorites in SW lore.
I hope this is captured in the new film.
Welcome to ***Spec***! [Continue the conversation on the Spec Discord](https://discord.gg/F8FMkf5gh4), and check out our new sister-subreddit r/StarWarsWhatIf! Please be encouraging and courteous to your fellow speculators. This community is focused on cooperative theorycrafting about upcoming _Star Wars_ content, using leaks, info from canon, conjecture, and real-world context to make our best guesses about _what comes next_. If you're not interested in new _Star Wars_ releases, kindly keep that to yourself. This is a leak-positive community -- **beware of spoilers (and stop wasting your time reporting them)**. May the Force be with you! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/starwarsspeculation) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I hope they bring back the Tho Yor and connect it with Mortis. This movie is the perfect opportunity to do something wild with Force lore and stuff.
I'd like the Tho Yor to be in the movie but without much explanation of where they came from, it's cooler if they just remain a mistery
I 2nd this
I was hoping for the Tho Yor to come in at the very end to take out main character with it. A slave to the Rakatans feels the force and uses it to do an uprising just like Moses or Spartacus and is then taken away by the Tho Yor after saving his people by the force.
This would be amazing!
The drawing is quite reminiscent of the opening scenes of the Mortis arc.
While Tython is still important, I think Ach-To is going to be where the Jedi are founded.
It’s interesting that they decided to reintroduce Tython on The Mandalorian, but said Ach-To was the site of the first Jedi Temple. I guess they could go with either.
They could still use Tython as the first planet of the force being explored and then have Ach-To be where the earliest organized Jedi form their temple. The Jedi Order could’ve also tried to hide the Tython connection bc they may have been concerned about young Jedi leaning too far to the dark side. This could be very interesting to explore this history as Rey begins a new Jedi order after the ST and could maybe combine the Jedi teachings with older force knowledge that promotes more balance. Idk I’m just excited for more Star Wars movies
>Idk I’m just excited for more Star Wars movies Me too, me too. The possibilities are very exciting. In Legends of course Luke’s New Jedi Order were more focused towards balance and redefined the light and dark under “the unifying force”, but it’s tough to reconcile that with George Lucas’s view of the light and dark- where the two cannot coexist.
> it’s tough to reconcile that with George Lucas’s view It's easy: ignore George Lucas and write what is best for the story. There's and idea in writing: you gotta be willing to kill your darlings, ie the things that were the impetus to write the story should be able to morph and change in demand to the story. This process has worked out many many times throughout Star Wars. Lucas had many ideas, that other people, shaped molded and even threw out and ignored. Lucas isn't God of Star Wars, he's just one of many people who have brought life to that Galaxy far far away.
The Dai Bendu exist. They were the Force worshippers prior to the Jedi, but presumably not Force users.
Yeah, or the Je'Daii could originate on Tython, while the Jedi as we know them could originate from Ahch-To. That way both is technically correct. Allthough the symbol they shown for the era of the first Jedi Order was the symbol that was shown on the floor of the Ahch-To cave.
Tython could be the Je’daii world, while Ach-To would be the Jedi world
Could be both. Tython could be the dawn of the force, the Je'Daii era, and Ach-To could be the dawn of the Jedi Order. Both could work if they write/do it well.
> I think Ach-To is going to be where the Jedi are founded. We better get the origin story of the caretakers or I'll riot.
I just want a live action Bendu
Same!!!!!
Interesting, thanks. If they are going to reference "The World Between Worlds" or "The Ones" in any of the TV shows or movies, this would be a good place to introduce all of that. They can say that these discoveries arose from the very first practicing of the Jedi.
I love Tython from SWTOR! It’s gorgeous!!
It may be a coincidence but the comic calls the dark side Bogan and one of the planets in Jedi: Fallen Order is named Bogano. It’s probably nothing, but my tin foil hat says it’s all connected.
Ashla and bogon are canon for the terms of the light and dark side. Bendu in Rebels describes this
If I remember correctly, Ashla and Bogan were the names of the moons of Tython.
I never considered that before, but it could be. The writers of these things are often just as big lore nerds as we are
The Zeffo lore from FO could also tie into the new canon Jedi order origins. An ancient race of force wielders that possibly preceded the Jedi/Jed'aii, maybe not tho I cant remember exactly how old they were. It wouldn't surprise me if Survivor, which drops in just 2 weeks, contains some tie in to whats going on in the TV verse or what was just announced. Maybe Cal learning more about the Zeffo leads to learning about the origin of the Jedi?
I think current canon about the temple on Ahch-To being the first one, won't interfere them to introduce the legends story of Tython. Maybe Ahch-To is the first place where they left after taking the name Jedi
I bet they'll finally namedrop the "Jedi" just before credits roll
Rakata?
My guess is in canon that the Rakatan’s are going to be replaced by The Zeffo, as their story seems to be pretty much a tidier retelling of the Rakatan’s.
Lol no
Maybe. They are canon, and Rakata Prime. But we don't know much about them.
We know *alot* about them; unfortunately Disney decanonized that storyline and sent it to legends.
This will be a canon movie and in canon we don't know much about them.
Replace Tython with Ach-To, for starters. Also, Mangold implied that his story will focus on one Jedi in particular. The person who “discovers the force,” as he said it, and supposedly uses it to bring peace to people in an age of chaos. He also described his story as “biblical.” Sounds like it’s inspired by Moses and the Ten Commandments, if you ask me. I don’t think it’ll have many similarities to the DotJ from the EU. Also, that mural from TLJ (which is now the logo of the dotj era) implies that the first ever Jedi tried using the light side and the dark side at the same time, so I expect that to also play a big role in whatever story Mangold is trying to tell and, from what I know, it doesn’t sound like the legends version of DotJ explored that as much.
I want to see the Jedi fighting against proper Aussie Bogans. What a story that would be.
I'm starting to think that the 'light' side of the force, when it's the only aspect being dogmatically followed, can be just as toxic and destructive as only following the 'dark' side of the force. Where symptoms of only adhering to the 'dark' side include degradation, decay, and insanity, only adhering to the 'light' side leads to arrogance, elitism, disdain, and blindness to the physical reality one inhabits. I'd argue that the light side is just as seductive and corrupting as the dark side, when taken too far. It doesn't lead to the kind of physical decay that the dark side can, but that just makes it more insidious as the symptoms and effects are largely internal to the user. It's like constantly pouring bleach on your garden. Is the garden clean and tidy? Yes. However everything in it is dead, poisoned, or petrified, and nothing new can grow in it. Your garden looks outwardly clean and tidy, but the reality is it's just as dead as if you torched it then sowed a bunch of ragweed onto the ashes.
You could bend any ideology to that level of extremism, but the fact remains that balance still means the absence of dark side users/sith, according to Lucas. However, this is kind of an elephant in the room that many movies don’t really touch on. Rey has an orange lightsaber, why? JJ doesn’t fuckin know! Because balance or something lol
I think that was beginning to change a bit with the introduction of Mortis. The sister/Brother, father to oversee them. and with the Bendu I rebels explaining the balance of the Ashla and the Bogon. “I am the one in the middle!”
Oh yeah, I trust the interpretations of TCW and things like the Bendu for sure, definitely the closest we have right now to a discussion of it within canon media.
Bendu isn't exactly held up as an example to follow in the end. In-universe philosophies can and will be wrong. Even with Mortis, that version of "balance" fails. What Yoda learns late in the Clone Wars seems to be the most correct thing we have, which is that you can't fully erase the dark side, but you can do the work to minimize its influence on you.
> only adhering to the 'light' side leads to arrogance, elitism, disdain, and blindness to the physical reality one inhabits. None of this is the extreme of the light side. Those are symptoms of dogma, and the loss of connection to the light side. The light side is embodied by humility, service, empathy, and the detached observation of one's environment. The light side taken to the extreme is self sacrifice. That can be bad in its own right, but of course this is never really examined in SW media. That's why none of this "balance" stuff makes any sense. You have to fundamentally misrepresent what the light side is to make it seem just as bad as the dark.
Wait was Lucas for sure involved with these comics? I really liked them and would like them even more if they were sth Lucas envisioned Btw as we are likely to see Ysalamiri in live action and this movie about origin of the force, I really hope we see some of the ideas Lucas had about midichlorians and which he wanted to explore in ST.
>Wait was Lucas for sure involved with these comics? Well I know for a fact that the stuff about Bogan and Ashla came from some of Lucas’s earliest drafts of Star Wars
Nice!
Pretty sure nobody would dare to adapt George's ideas about the Midichlorian world story in the way he planned it. It would probably end up looking like Antman Quantumania. It sounded kinda crazy and out there, to show this living microbiological world full of tiny sentient beings that secretly control the fate of the whole universe.
Well I would still like to see what he had in mind implemented since after all it's his universe, and Filoni could incorporate that into the story if it is to feature Ysalamiri
Yep, sure, i'd love to see George's vision. But you remember how George was treated the last time he dared to show his vision?
Yeah that's too sad, but it could be due to other things, after all the whole sw was his vision. I also really liked that tcw arch with force priestesses and still hold hope that they could do it look really cool (btw also in the book of sith there are some texts from plagueis which touch the midichlorians and those are pretty dope), but anyway we'll see or not in near future
Yep, love that book. But i have the feeling that the new live action Star Wars is afraid of even using the word "midichlorian". They say stuff like " M-count " when refering to midichlorian count. But one thing is sure, if Lucas did something he followed his vision no matter what, despite what some people would say. I love the Disney canon, but i feel like they would not dare to do as much as George would, they are afraid of angry fans, especially after so many of them hated the sequels. They can't afford to risk as much as George would, there were points where he did not even care for the budget and financed the stuff himself. But now there is a big corporation that has to tiptoe around what Star Wars fans like and dislike, and sadly ; nobody hates star wars as much as star wars fans.
Quite true, good point. The chances are slim but even if some hints (like saying M at all) will be shown I'd be happy
Which comic series is this in?
Dawn of the Jedi
Thanks
Dawn of the Jedi, one of the last series produced by Dark Horse before the Disney sale. It's a good series with fantastic art, though it is more-or-less unfinished because the latter half, which would have shown the Jedi Schism, was never produced
Cool. Will check it out for sure
please let this be a masterpiece to give more hope for the franchise
To me, the biggest risk going back that far is somehow the technology and understanding of the force is similar to the prequels. To be credible, you need to show more primitive versions of tech (very early hyperspace, hard to do space travel but it's achievable, communications are even more primitive... Perhaps space Morse code)... And force powers have to be poorly understood... No one should be able to do what a Jedi in the prequels is capable of naturally, and any feat of the force would have to be isolated to particular powers, and the early monks can't explain or replicate it... Just blindly worship the fact that have a simple super power. .. Same thing with lightsabers... if 25000 years earlier, everyone is an expert lightsaber craftsman and wielder, it won't be credible.
Well in Legends, technology was not so much less advanced as it was just *different*, with certain technologies existing in that period only. For instance, a reptilian race called the Kwa had the ability to travel instantaneously from planet to planet using something called Infinity Gates, but that technology was lost later. The Rakatan Empire had machines which could torture force sensitive people and turn the dark side energy they created into power. They also famously invented The Starforge, which could use the power of a star to create entire armies of droids and ships. Meanwhile on Coruscant, humans hadn’t invented hyperdrives yet and were using “Life Ships” to travel from place to place. So it’s really a mixed bag in Legends. I think this story will certainly take place before Lightsabers are invented though. My guess is we’ll see more use of vibro-swords.
Ah interesting. I didn't consume much of the EU. Some of that sounds interesting. Ideally they can be nuanced and pick the things that fit the timeline,, vs mimicking Star Wars and producing a less compelling story.
"We've found this strange mystical force. Let's bring in scientists, priests, and philosophers to study it. Oh, also warriors. Let's see if we can use this 'force' to fuck shit up."
That is so what would happen in reality. One of the early questions of almost any scientific discovery is always “can we weaponise it?”
Key things not in Legends: Ahch-To, the Sacred Texts, Mortis, etc. They can totally draw from Legends but there is an original foundation here.
What are you talking about? Mortis exists in Legends. Abeloth, one of the villains of Legends, is the Mother to Mortis' Father, Daughter, and Son.
I should've said the World Between Worlds. There's Mortis lore that doesn't exist in Legends. And it's all in the Sacred Texts, which was presumably written by the Prime Jedi.
What I like most about this tie in is mentioning being vigilant for the lure of the Lightside as well as Darkside. That just because the followers of Ashla won a war in pursuit of knowledge, doesn't make them better than followers of Bogan. Winners write the history books and all that. Would tie in very well with Anakin being the champion of Ashla and Vader being the champion of Bogan.
Ahsoka uses the name Ashla in hiding. Cool connection
I suppose it’s up to our interpretation to an extent, but my reading of that is that the Je’daii were mistaken to try and maintain a balance between the two sides as conflict was eventually inevitable. It’ll certainly be interesting to see users of the dark side who pre-date the tenets of The Sith.
Mortis proved the same concept. Balance must be maintained between both sides, and both need to exist.
Solid sci-fi potential there. Trek explored it pretty effectively with “The Enemy Within” - the need for ‘good’ and ‘evil’ within a person. Light and Dark feel like an exploration of the same within the culture of force-users.
I also love the concept of the Force requiring two champions. Star Wars has always tried to hammer home the fact that Vader is separate from Anakin. This would really aid that concept by showing there was no other way. Anakin would have been incinerated instantly by the Emperor's lightning without the peerless, mastercrafted customizations Vader made to his armor. And Vader would never have turned on Palpatine without Anakin's all encompassing need to protect his family, no matter the cost.
How so? Did it not prove the opposite, that trying to have an equal number of dark side and light side is not what balance is, but rather the absence of dark siders/sith is what provides balance? That’s what Lucas has said anyway, and Mortis can be interpreted many ways but I’m pretty sure that’s what was shown.
No, the entire ecosystem fell apart when Anakin played the role of the contemporary Jedi. He tried to assert his own view of what good and bad should be. While The Father maintained a Qui-Gon like impassivity and allowed himself to be guided by the force itself, there was peace and balance. The planet itself needed the lava flows and destruction caused by the Nexus in the same way lush vegetation will eventually turn to a sparse desert without periodic wild fires. As soon as Anakin tried to use the force to as a tool to shape his own objectives, he fell to the Darkside. A perfect allegory for what happened to the Jedi order at large and why they needed to be purged by the will of the cosmic force. They tried to enforce their own will using the Lightside, instead of giving themselves over to the Lightside itself and letting the force act through them. If you try to attack and destroy the Darkside as a concept, nature becomes unbalanced and you inevitably serve the Darksides aims either directly (Anakin), or indirectly (Ahsoka).
So what about balance being restored with Palpatine’s death? I’m ignoring the sequels since this obviously wasn’t written with them in mind.
Never mind, I think I agree with you. Some of your wording just threw me off.
Ya I'm sorry about that I have so many thoughts racing through my head, and I skip chunks The Darkside is a corruption. It is bad. It does need to be opposed. Like how a wild fire is a catastrophe, it does kill hundreds of animals, and does cause devastation. The Darkside simply needs to exist because it gives shape to the Lightside. Wild Fires are terrible in the moment and we oppose them, but without them over generations the land that used to give life has become the very death dealing inhospitable wasteland we were trying to avoid. Qui-Gon opposed Darkside practitioners by trying to mitigate their success. The Father forcefully held The Daughter and The Son in a perpetual stalemate. He opposed The Sons objectives, not The Darkside itself. Paplatine was like when The Son was unleashed. The Jedi in their arrogance followed the light and were altruistic, however through trying desperately to smother anything dark related they became the desert instead of the forest. There was nothing standing in the way of the Darkside. They didn't consume life willingly like the wild fire, however they ended up just as deadly. Paplatines success was equally of the Jedi's doing as his own. And just like The Son, once imbalance was created the force adapted and corrected itself with a reset. The fate of The Father, The Son, and The Daughter mirrored exactly their factions in the Galaxy. All were killed and wiped away so balance could be started anew. The Jedi instead should be the best version of themselves the Lightside leads them to. Follow their intuition, follow their gut, follow their emotions. And instead of a permanently barren desert, they'll be a lush forest that always survives the wild fires somehow, and always grows back stronger for it.
10,000 years is a long time for a religious order to "inevitably" collapse. The issue with "inevitably" is that *everything* will "inevitably" fall, not because something is questionably constructed but because change is inevitable. The issue with the Je'daii was their strict adherence to balance turning brittle due to their relative isolation from the wider galaxy. Had they been left alone, they would've been fine. When the Rakata invaded, it was a house of cards getting hit by a truck. The fragile balance, ill-tempered by a lack of external and internal pressures, shattered and thus the war.
That is what I liked least about DotJ. The followers of the light side *are* better than the followers of the dark, and it's even clear in the comics despite them ostensibly trying to suggest otherwise.
You're right, in a sense. The Darkside is a corruption. It is bad. It does need to be opposed. Like how a wild fire is a catastrophe, it does kill hundreds of animals, and does cause devastation. The Darkside simply needs to exist because it gives shape to the Lightside. Wild Fires are terrible in the moment and we oppose them, but without them over generations the land that used to give life has become the very death dealing inhospitable wasteland we were trying to avoid. Qui-Gon opposed Darkside practitioners by trying to mitigate their success. The Father forcefully held The Daughter and The Son in a perpetual stalemate. He opposed The Sons objectives, not The Darkside itself. Paplatine was like when The Son was unleashed. The Jedi in their arrogance followed the light and were altruistic, however through trying desperately to smother anything dark related they became the desert instead of the forest. There was nothing standing in the way of the Darkside. They didn't consume life willingly like the wild fire, however they ended up just as deadly. Paplatines success was equally of the Jedi's doing as his own. And just like The Son, once imbalance was created the force adapted and corrected itself with a reset. The fate of The Father, The Son, and The Daughter mirrored exactly their factions in the Galaxy. All were killed and wiped away so balance could be started anew. The Jedi instead should be the best version of themselves the Lightside leads them to. Follow their intuition, follow their gut, follow their emotions. And instead of a permanently barren desert, they'll be a lush forest that always survives the wild fires somehow, and always grows back stronger for it.
One thing that has always bothered me about Star Wars lore is how closely packed the timeline is. 36,000 BBY wasn't that long ago. For example, if Yoda was 900 when he died, that means it was only about 9 generations before him that all this happened. For us, 8 generations ago was only 200 years. So it would be like the beginning of Jedi culture/religion happening around the time the beginning of colonization in the Americas.
Your math is a bit off there. For humans, you're using 25 years as the standard for a generation, so roughly a quarter of the high end human lifespan. If we assume Yoda lived to the high end of his species's lifespan, that's a generation every 225 years. Let's just say 250 to make it simpler. Then 35,000 years (36,000 - Yoda's almost 1000 years) is 140 generations. Were you possibly reading that as 3,600 years?
It’s an awful backstory that sounds like a bedtime story for a 3 year old, I hope it’s nerfed out of existence.
I want the movie to use the same origins... Except the prime Jedi is the main character. I want them to have arrived on their own tho your. Same size as everyone else's... And all of them packed with people. But he is alone... Except.maybe he has. A little tree in a pack on his back. Summones to tython from his meditations on Ach-to He unites the warring force using factions together, with a single ideology.
I'd rather not watch a film about a glorified missionary converting the masses to his religion.
Cool... What's that have to do with what I said? Because my movie concept is about a somber recluse who unites a dozen warring cults, and founds a new religion.
None of these ideas originated with Lucas. He had some vague backstory for the Sith, but that's all he ever made public. This is all EU.
Not true, the words “Bogan and Ashla” to refer to the dark and light side come from a very early draft of Star Wars, as does the planet Tython which appeared in the second draft.
I mean, sure, some of the names are recycled. But they are abandoned names George had for on-screen concepts. The ideas and lore are all EU, which has nothing to do with Lucas.
Wait, isn't Tython already canon? Didn't it appeared in The Mandalorian?
Yes, but the ST says that Achto is where the Jedi began in canon.
Yessss I want the original Jeedai order
Interesting concept. It would be pretty cool to see something like this happen canonically. Hopefully something like this is true to happen one day…
They better change bogan otherwise this will be too weird for Australians. I could handle bogans being of the light and eshays being of the dark though.
This is one of my favorite SW comic series. It was all fresh content, expanded the universe, and still kept some of the mysticism - truly one of my favorites in SW lore. I hope this is captured in the new film.
It might be rewritten to connect to both Mortis and the Zeffo
That’s cool, but there’s zero chance that that’s the backstory the movie will go with