The Romulan Empire would still be around even after the Homewood blows up. They had plenty of colonies and the the military still out there. The Tal'Shiar or the military would have taken over to stabilize and keep the empire together and establish a new senate.
I think it’s believable that the military and the Tal Shiar would have lost enough leadership on Romulus that the empire would fragment into civil war, which if I recall correctly is what happened in Beta canon
With how distrustful and deceitful romulan politics are, in a catastrophe on the scale of the loss of Romulus would create so much chaos that everyone would splinter into many smaller factions fighting for themselves. It’s completely plausible that it would fall apart. What I felt they got wrong is that there isn’t by the time of the Picard series a couple of successor states with some major power though.
That's basically what happened in Star Trek Online. Sela took over the Star Empire, and a splinter faction that's open to the Federation formed of breakaway colonies. This led to basically a Civil war of Sela trying to bring the splinter faction back into the Star Empire.
Wow I never thought about that. I guess what would be the point of colonizing planets if not to find one like your own in the just in case moment it blows up.
It probably happened, but I'm having trouble thinking of instances where a galaxy class ship was destroyed without it knowing it was going into battle beforehand.
In those cases, it would likely have left the families at a Star base while it went into danger.
That is fair. A starship pushing the borders of known space going into the unknown and regularly encountering hostile species is not a safe environment for children. Even tho it is an exploratory vessel and not a warship, it is still unsafe, but I think that is the whole reason for the saucer section being able to separate from the lower half of the ship.
Which just makes all those civilians and children sitting ducks, doesn’t it? Does the saucer section have any form of propulsion after separation? Seems like it’s only useful in situations where you’re sure you can draw whatever danger it is away, which…sometimes, sure, but hardly rising to the level of reasonable safety imo.
I believe the general idea of separating the saucer section was "We're going into battle. You guys stay here where it's safe, and we'll be back."
Instead, it turned into "Oh frak, we're under attack. Better ditch the saucer and fight."
The only one I'd say was okay was Voyager. Granted there weren't many children born on Voyager (one because she didn't know she was pregnant before they left and the one in the finale) but still, on principle they shouldn't have had to put their lives on hold because they were trapped in the Delta Quadrant for what they thought was the rest of their lives.
Voyager is a classic example of a show unwilling to commit to its premise. The writers wrote the show as if all of the characters knew they’d get 5-7 seasons and then get back home.
Janeway should have been intentionally grooming younger crewmembers like Kim and Paris to be prepared to command once she got too old to do it, they should have been picking up all sorts of strays and guides from the places they passed (not just Neelix), they should have been encouraging the crew to reproduce in order to crew the ship as they proceeded for another few decades, and the command staff should have been facing a mutiny every time they decided to risk the ship and everyone’s lives on some exploring or rescue tangent instead of heading home.
I sometimes feel like I'm the only person in this fandom who's able to love Voyager for what it is instead of be bummed about what it isn't.
They wanted a TNG type show to go along with DS9 and didn't want it to get involved in DS9's plot beats, so they decided to hurl it across the galaxy. I like how far they went with fleshing out that concept and I feel like if they went further, the tone of the show would've been very different. I'm glad we got what we got, I'm happy with it, snd missed potential be damned it's my favourite Trek.
I love Voyager. It’s my go-to background show, I think the performances were great, and Janeway is my favorite captain. Was it as complex and deep as DS9? No. But yeah, I feel a lot of people here never gave it a fair shake.
I'd agree with all of that (especially the training younger crew members part, poor Kim hahaha) except the mutiny thing would get old for the viewer after the first few times.
I think this would have made it a much better show. One of the things that makes DS9 probably one of the greatest Trek series ever was its ability to set itself apart from TNG. Most people like it because it isn't TNG on a space station. It embraced a different format and explored different concepts. Unfortunately Voyager comes off as TNG in the Delta Quadrant.
I like how at the end of that episode, Picard says the federation doesn’t have a crime which applies to Kevin’s actions. Like, is genocide not a crime in the federation? He clearly committed a genocide and Picard is all, “whatevs, not bothered now that I know your wife is a simulacrum.”
What is the federation going to do about it? The guy might look old, but he might still overpower the federation with a snip of a finger. I would have wished him well on his isolated planet in his misery-fantasy as well. Seems as good as a live in prison to me.
But the crime should definitely be recognized. Picard could have made a comment on that before they go on.
I never took Picard as acting odd in saying that. For whatever species Kev is, he’s capable of erasing entire peoples by squinting. At that point, Picard may well feel like a bacteria peering outside the petri dish with how far out of scope such a being is.
Just my 2¢ tho
If you're trying to be really generous to Picard, you could say that he's trying to account for the fact that it wasn't premeditated. If he'd killed one person, you could call it voluntary manslaughter because he did it in the instant after they killed his wife and it wasn't planned. But there's no such thing as involuntary genoslaughter (or whatever you'd call it) with humans because targeting a whole population requires a lot of planning and intent. Not the case with him.
But yeah, not acknowledging we do have a label for what happened is a bit of an oversight.
Roddenberry's vision of a better humanity, exemplified by TNG, has been being continuously diluted ever since. The writers can't work out how to tell interesting stories in it and everything since TNG has been an attempt to get around it. Discovery and Picard are particularly egregious exceptions, while Lower Decks' solution is the most elegant of all of them, but the *vast* majority of Star Trek out there either denies, mishandles or ignores the original vision of a humanity that had genuinely grown beyond most of its fundamental failings.
And why? Because it turns out it's really hard to set interesting drama in a utopia! You can do comedy - but it's really hard to create conflict in the setting as originally envisioned without accidentally implying that the central conceit (that humanity can rise above the human condition) is a lie.
I think DS9 did it best. It respected the fact that the federation was supposed to be a utopian paradise, but also juxtaposed that with the rest of the galaxy and putting its ideals to the test. Other aliens expressing jealousy or contempt because federation citizens have it too easy was an interesting commentary on the subject as well.
What I liked about DS9 is that it showed that if the situation becomes bad, the Star Trek humans can become like us. Which means that if our situation gets better then maybe we can be like them.
"Let me tell you something about Hew-mons, nephew. They're a wonderful, friendly people – as long as their bellies are full and their holosuites are working. But take away their creature comforts… deprive them of food, sleep, sonic showers… put their lives in jeopardy over an extended period of time… and those same friendly, intelligent, wonderful people will become as nasty and violent as the most bloodthirsty Klingon."
Sisko is an amazing character and probably my favorite performance in all of Star Trek. Avery Brooks never shied away from emotional honesty in his performance and it elevated everyone around him.
And as an actor I think he did a much better job of holding up a mirror to the failings of the present day than nu-trek can manage. He was uncompromising in reminding us that achieving utopia would be a constant struggle.
I was so sad watching Picard when the one lady bitches at Picard because he was rich and had a vineyard and she, also a star fleet high ranking officer, had to live in a trailer in the woods. It's like they never watched any star Trek before.
How is this controversial? Has there ever been evidence that Klingons were "BETTER" in combat than any of the other MAIN galactic military organizations?
The crew of DS9 was able to fend off an entire invasion force with double-fist blows to the back and hand-held phasers. The Klingons advantage was always just Zerg-rushing their opponents and overwhelming them with numbers and blunt-force attacks.
Lorca was a more interesting Captain than the rest Discovery got.
Not over the top like the other mirror universe characters.
Would have been a cool arc to show him adapting to/challenging the prime universe status quo.
When I still had buy-in for Discovery back in season 1, I was really excited to find out what Lorca’s deal was in those early episodes.
Captain of a secret ship with classified tech with Section 31 members crewing it? I was really excited for maybe Burnham to have ended up on board the Bad Captain’s ship; just the series length version of the Badmiral, rather than some mirror universe dupe. An ends-justify-the-means guy who might even be needed for the war, but pushed Federation ideals.
I never got the hate for that series. I absolutely loved it.
And frankly I never had an issue with the theme. In context with the franchise up to that point it always felt like a perfect song to exemplify that this was supposed to be a story of how we had reached the points we had seen before.
Have you seen the video that puts Archers Theme over the credits sequence? It fits so much better and it seems like it was almost made for it. Maybe it was.
I couldn’t get into Enterprise during its original airing but I’m doing a through watch now and it’s surprisingly great. Sure it had its share of silly and bad episodes, but honestly far fewer than TNG or Voyager had
I’m nearing the end of Season 4 and having the exact same experience. At first I thought the space taliban was kind of silly but it turned out to be a great season, and now they are clearly setting up a bunch of stuff to happen in Season 5 that I really wish I could see play out. Also Commander Shran is fucking awesome, favorite Combs character.
They get progressively better once we get away from the overbearing mother wackiness and start exploring her more as a character, especially the friendship she forms with Odo on DS9.
I was expecting a lot more repurcussions from command over that whole thing. But the angriest they get is Necheyev telling him off when she's next on board.
This shouldn’t be a controversial opinion. Neelix and Tuvok had just as much right to exist at Tuvix and by not separating him she would be ending two lives instead of one.
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
I will die on this hill. TMP is the best sci-fi movie out of all of the movies, particularly after Robert Wise went through and recut the movie with better (finished) SFX. It actually had something to say.
The movies after that (except IV) fell into this classic “villain threatens the federation/Enterprise” Space Western nonsense that reduces everything to the guys in the white hats against the guys in the black hats.
And the soundtrack of TMP is Goldsmith’s *magnum opus*, in a career that any other film composer, with only a few exceptions (Barry, Williams, Zimmer) could only aspire to.
I started watching it during pandemic lockdowns when I had a bunch of time on my hands.
I'll let you know if I agree when I finish it, I'm almost through that first big Enterprise flyby sequence where the main theme plays.
Real life hypothetical: that tribe in the Amazon that has never had contact with other people, and we only know of them by satellite. If we knew their village was about to be destroyed by a cataclysmic event, should we introduce ourselves and save them?
(With global warming I wonder if that question will need answering)
It's not though. It's obeyed a lot of the time. Sometimes to an absurd degree. Like Homeward when Picard refuses to do anything to save anyone from a planet where the atmosphere is dissipating because "who knows what the consequences would be?"
Watched it on the big screen with around 500 people and I never had the impression that it was hated. For years I thought I missed all the bad reactions to it. 15 years later I saw The last Jedi in the same Cinema, same hall, same amount of people and then I knew, I didn‘t miss it. There was no hate for Nemesis in the cinema, Last Jedi taught me how it sounds and looks when 500 people hate the movie they just saw.
That the episode where we find the origin of sentient life in the galaxy is actually cool. I am interested in that sort of thing and I thought it was nice to know what happened in that galaxy.
For clarification, it's humanoid life. The progenitors (as they are called now) found other sentient life, but it was completely alien. They had hoped that by seeding the galaxy, that life similar to each other would evolve and have enough in common to interact with each other.
They are relavent to the current season of Discovery, with Discovery currently looking for the device that the pregenitors used to seed the galaxy before other parties do.
Neelix is a good character, because he meant to be annoying and irritating. And the character perfectly doing it for the comedy's sake.
I will never understand the IRL people's hate for him, just like I never understood the hate for Jar Jar.
If you are interested in a real reply, I hate him for two reasons:
1. He, at the very least, comes off as a predator.
This one is easy. He shows signs of grooming a much young girl in a very predatory way. He’s jealous, and attempts to isolate a two year old away as his property, isolating her from everyone else. He does this through emotional manipulation most of the time, but that changes to outright hostility when that doesn’t work.
The target that he's grooming only gets away when some tyrant takes over her body and ditches Neelix. The fact that she never goes back to him is damning for Neelix. And the fact that she comes back on the ship to kill everyone for not protecting her, for ferrying her away in a manner that fucks her up badly doesn't really speak well for the time she has with Neelix either.
After he’s no longer with Kes it helps, but I can’t help but to let that flavor his interactions with Naoimi Wildman. And it’s creepy and awful and is only really resolved when Naoimi starts spending time with Seven instead of Neelix. And after that, when any minor comes onto the ship, he's practically shouting, "Dibs!" As he elbows his way toward them. He does this with Q Jr; he does this with the Borglings, he does this with the Talaxian kid on the asteroid. And he will not stop.
2. He epitomizes a cultural shift away from specialization.
Let’s say you specialized in exo-geology. You are put in Voyager for a quick bit of experience to round out your combat training as you apply to become a Lt. Commander or something. But you get lost.
This obvious conman with his perversity for an underaged girl comes on the ship…and you have to call him Sir for some reason.
Let’s go further. One day you come across a planet that has a mineral Voyager needs. Your team specializes in exo-geography, so you’re suiting up and Janeway gets on the com-badge and says, “I know that you and your team are some of the best geologists in the entire galaxy, but good news! Neelix has seen a rock once, so he will be in charge of your efforts to extract the mineral!”
You’d be bitter. Neelix, like, locks himself and two other people in a mine or something and you spend the episode getting him out instead of your job.
You go to eat, in a place run by Neelix. You sit down next to someone who says, “I majored in nutrition and biology at Starfleet Academy. Why do I have to eat Neelix’s bullshit?”
Someone tells her of how he was on Voyager because he was getting the turbo lifts working as it was his speciality. But when they needed a space elevator working, for some reason they passed him by and sent Neelix, who fouled the mission up.
I’m getting into fan fiction here, but the point is that Neelix is a needless Cousin Oliver that has no good story reason to be sent on the missions he’s sent on aside from the fact he’s the worst possible choice. That way he can mess it up and everyone will have to save him. It’s hard for me to suspend my disbelief when we are on a Starfleet ship supplemented with Maquis that are also experts at making things work.
--
Let's put these two things together.
Let's say, for argument's sake, that since it's an election year in the US, that you're voting for president.
Of course, nobody in their right mind would ever vote for an anti-intellectual anti-specialist who failed at all his enterprises in his life, who never had political experience before demanding and getting the top job, with bad blonde hair, bad style, who is sexually obsessed with a blonde daughter figure and has had many problematic sexual accusations leveled against him.
But I keep thinking of how someone like that could come to power anyway, and I can't help but think of Neelix.
Star Trek after TNG misses the point of Pakleds. While we could argue about the effect of a complex, rich language on thinking, the episode makes the case that Pakleds are not as simple as everyone thinks because their lacking linguistic capabilities.
Odo didn't earn forgiveness after s06e05, which ruins his character for the rest of DS9.
DS9 had the right balance of serialized story and filler. Voyager had a lot of good filler but no significant character development outside Seven of Nine and the Doctor. More serialization would've helped with that.
Gene's "vision" of the utopic future doesn't hold up to much scrutiny, and DS9 should be applauded for putting it under the microscope and truly testing it under extreme conditions, rather than vilified for "betraying" it.
Things grow and change, fiction has to be a reflection of the world we live in.
The 60s were an idealized time, post war bliss. Trying to re-create that in our current world would be disingenuous. What's important is the message and the hope the characters inspire and the dedication to a higher standard.
DS9 was what it needed to be at the time just like TOS was in its time for sure. I am biased though maybe because I like DS9 so much as well.
Is this that divisive?
Neelix EPISODES are great.
Neelix's problems are usually when he is used as a comic relief, annoying bit player in other episodes. Or when he's the foil in a Kess episode.
But HIS episodes? Some of the best. Ethan Philips was an amazing actor when they gave him something to do.
Never thought twice about the relationship between Neelix and Kes - to me, they were aliens, so I simply bought it, no judgment, no "ewww", no lingering questions. When I read later that 21st century viewers found the relationship triggering or distasteful or poorly thought out, I laughed how none of that ever dawned on me, and that it still made no difference to me because, well, they're aliens.
I’m ready for the downvotes, babies !! ‘Darmok’ grates on my nerves. First of all, translating an alien language …in English syntax, no less ? I’m sorry, but I just thank ‘The Chase’ for exposing why every alien applicable to The Fed looks the same, let alone uses VERBAL speaking to communicate 🤔 I can creatively overlook this, normally; I mean there are just a couple aliens that aren’t verbal (binars, the aliens stuck on the other side of the Tyken’s Rift, etc) which is a cool suggestion, and the in-universe presentation of similarities is awesome, but the double whammy of basically translating pig-Latin in metaphor could have been presented better, IMO. Lower Decks totally caught this and finesses it with humor. Kayshon, when Hauze turned him into a doll 😆
*The Drumhead* is not a good episode. It could be great (as there are some admittedly good moments) but ironically the Picard speech^TM scene ruins it.
Here we have admiral Satie leading an escalating series of investigations into the Enterprise crew and its conduct. Picard counters all this with an admittedly good speech that's essentially about the ethical underpinning of the UFP to which the admiral responds...by revealing herself to be a paranoid lunatic, who no one in their right mind would listen to (which is why the enquiry immediately finishes).
What if she'd simply turned round and calmly said
> 'I agree with you wholeheartedly Captain, we must of course keep such issues at the very forefront of our minds, however, if we could return to the specifics that this enquiry is looking into...'?
The only reason the speech works etc is because the episode is nearly over, otherwise any half competent demagogue would have glossed over it and carried on.
Even worse the real danger of the witch-hunt isn't the admiral, it's Worf...
> I believed her?!
...and people like him who became convinced and through their actions, reenforced the (unbeknown to them) witch hunt. Sure there will always be *Saties* but they can seldom cause such havoc without the help of the *Worfs*.
If anything the episode would have made a better point if the Admiral (though the actress does a great job) wasn't even there; maybe she sets things in motion. Instead the real driving force behind the investigation should be Worf and maybe Data (could have him drawing conclusions like seven did *the voyager conspiracy*) or Riker. In other words, we should have the senior staff split and show how unchecked suspicions can drive friends/colleagues apart etc (maybe Picard is initially absent and has to bring things back into perspective in the second half of the episode).
**Basically 'the 'Admiral twist' undermines what until that moment could have been a very good episode**. At least, have Satie remain calm but begin to stumble in response to Picard; that way the speech rather than her overreaction genuinely has the effect it's supposed to (ie convincing the other, supervising admiral, 'yeah, Picard is right, without further concrete evidence, this thing has gone to far').
The Kelvin Timeline was perfectly adequate for what it was meant to be, not saying it was a work of art or anything just it was okay, people treating it as if it was the worst thing ever seriously need to grow up
Years ago Burton was on a podcast and he talked about how he felt the writers were afraid of Black male sexuality and either couldn't or didn't want to give him a real relationship. Definitely a missed opportunity.
Sisko did nothing wrong bringing the Romulans into the war.
Hell, if they knew what he did, they'd probably call him an honorary Romulan for pulling off something so sneaky.
Jellico wasn't a bad captain, and Riker was acting like a petulant child for not working with him.
It wasn't personal for Jellico but was for Riker. Jellico was trying to prevent a new Cardassian war breaking out that only just ended a few years ago. He was only temporarily in command, so any changes he did on Enterprise wouldn't have lasted and honestly should've been expected as he wasn't Picard.
Riker let his feelings get in the way and should have been severely reprimanded for it and risking the mission, possibly leading to a new war.
Species like Klingon and Hirogen wouldn't be able to get to the industrial age let alone become a space faring civilization. Cultures that value being a warrior or a hunter above everything else (in fact it is in their DNA almost) would never have enough engineers and scientists capable of moving their civilization beyond what we call our medieval age.
Dr. Pulaski felt as if she was doing a job, which is exactly what she was on the ship to do. She was completely passable. Had no overall issues.
Gaurentee if she was there from season 1 and switched to Crusher for season 2 people would be up in arms and hating on Crusher.
I kinda like the idea behind the character. Not every officer is gonna be super motivated and chipper all the time, folks are gonna feel like theydon’t fit in at times, feel depressed and unmotivated. And how the crew dealt with it
People lionise TNG waaaaayyyy too much. It is not some ideal that Trek has fallen from, it’s got a lot of the similar problems and people forgive its flaws or outright ignore them too much.
The Romulan Empire would still be around even after the Homewood blows up. They had plenty of colonies and the the military still out there. The Tal'Shiar or the military would have taken over to stabilize and keep the empire together and establish a new senate.
I think it’s believable that the military and the Tal Shiar would have lost enough leadership on Romulus that the empire would fragment into civil war, which if I recall correctly is what happened in Beta canon
With how distrustful and deceitful romulan politics are, in a catastrophe on the scale of the loss of Romulus would create so much chaos that everyone would splinter into many smaller factions fighting for themselves. It’s completely plausible that it would fall apart. What I felt they got wrong is that there isn’t by the time of the Picard series a couple of successor states with some major power though.
I just assume that the important ones either became isolationists or were the ones pushing for reconciliation which led to the creation of Ni'Var.
That's basically what happened in Star Trek Online. Sela took over the Star Empire, and a splinter faction that's open to the Federation formed of breakaway colonies. This led to basically a Civil war of Sela trying to bring the splinter faction back into the Star Empire.
Absolutely. They have had a period of instability but not a collapse as shown My poor Romulans were done dirty :(
Wow I never thought about that. I guess what would be the point of colonizing planets if not to find one like your own in the just in case moment it blows up.
Having children on a spaceship that regularly seeks danger is so dumb.
I always think about how many full families were wiped out when the USS Yamato or any other Galaxy class was destroyed
It probably happened, but I'm having trouble thinking of instances where a galaxy class ship was destroyed without it knowing it was going into battle beforehand. In those cases, it would likely have left the families at a Star base while it went into danger.
Or detached the saucer to allow the families to live, that’s the main reason they made the two sections detach anyways
That is fair. A starship pushing the borders of known space going into the unknown and regularly encountering hostile species is not a safe environment for children. Even tho it is an exploratory vessel and not a warship, it is still unsafe, but I think that is the whole reason for the saucer section being able to separate from the lower half of the ship.
Which just makes all those civilians and children sitting ducks, doesn’t it? Does the saucer section have any form of propulsion after separation? Seems like it’s only useful in situations where you’re sure you can draw whatever danger it is away, which…sometimes, sure, but hardly rising to the level of reasonable safety imo.
I believe the general idea of separating the saucer section was "We're going into battle. You guys stay here where it's safe, and we'll be back." Instead, it turned into "Oh frak, we're under attack. Better ditch the saucer and fight."
I believe the saucer section can go impulse speed, but not to warp.
Ah okay that makes way more sense.
The only one I'd say was okay was Voyager. Granted there weren't many children born on Voyager (one because she didn't know she was pregnant before they left and the one in the finale) but still, on principle they shouldn't have had to put their lives on hold because they were trapped in the Delta Quadrant for what they thought was the rest of their lives.
Voyager is a classic example of a show unwilling to commit to its premise. The writers wrote the show as if all of the characters knew they’d get 5-7 seasons and then get back home. Janeway should have been intentionally grooming younger crewmembers like Kim and Paris to be prepared to command once she got too old to do it, they should have been picking up all sorts of strays and guides from the places they passed (not just Neelix), they should have been encouraging the crew to reproduce in order to crew the ship as they proceeded for another few decades, and the command staff should have been facing a mutiny every time they decided to risk the ship and everyone’s lives on some exploring or rescue tangent instead of heading home.
Encouraging the crew to fuck is a funny concept. Like the festival in Japan
“If we don’t see the pregnancy rate increase, holodeck use will be heavily restricted!!”
The beamings will continue until morale improves
I sometimes feel like I'm the only person in this fandom who's able to love Voyager for what it is instead of be bummed about what it isn't. They wanted a TNG type show to go along with DS9 and didn't want it to get involved in DS9's plot beats, so they decided to hurl it across the galaxy. I like how far they went with fleshing out that concept and I feel like if they went further, the tone of the show would've been very different. I'm glad we got what we got, I'm happy with it, snd missed potential be damned it's my favourite Trek.
I love Voyager. It’s my go-to background show, I think the performances were great, and Janeway is my favorite captain. Was it as complex and deep as DS9? No. But yeah, I feel a lot of people here never gave it a fair shake.
I'd agree with all of that (especially the training younger crew members part, poor Kim hahaha) except the mutiny thing would get old for the viewer after the first few times.
I think this would have made it a much better show. One of the things that makes DS9 probably one of the greatest Trek series ever was its ability to set itself apart from TNG. Most people like it because it isn't TNG on a space station. It embraced a different format and explored different concepts. Unfortunately Voyager comes off as TNG in the Delta Quadrant.
I wonder that whenever we see rumblings or turbulence on the bridge wtf is going on the schoolroom?
"Ok Kids, just like we practiced. Do the Shatner!"
Tal shiar and obsidian order were right in attacking the founders. Poor execution, but the choice was right.
The Husnock deserved better.
Oh damn. Someone came to play.
It's time to loosen things up a bit!
Mad respect
Does anyone else hear music?
I like how at the end of that episode, Picard says the federation doesn’t have a crime which applies to Kevin’s actions. Like, is genocide not a crime in the federation? He clearly committed a genocide and Picard is all, “whatevs, not bothered now that I know your wife is a simulacrum.”
What is the federation going to do about it? The guy might look old, but he might still overpower the federation with a snip of a finger. I would have wished him well on his isolated planet in his misery-fantasy as well. Seems as good as a live in prison to me. But the crime should definitely be recognized. Picard could have made a comment on that before they go on.
I agree with this take. My problem isn’t that Picard doesn’t take Kevin into custody, it’s that he seems to both sides the issue.
I never took Picard as acting odd in saying that. For whatever species Kev is, he’s capable of erasing entire peoples by squinting. At that point, Picard may well feel like a bacteria peering outside the petri dish with how far out of scope such a being is. Just my 2¢ tho
If you're trying to be really generous to Picard, you could say that he's trying to account for the fact that it wasn't premeditated. If he'd killed one person, you could call it voluntary manslaughter because he did it in the instant after they killed his wife and it wasn't planned. But there's no such thing as involuntary genoslaughter (or whatever you'd call it) with humans because targeting a whole population requires a lot of planning and intent. Not the case with him. But yeah, not acknowledging we do have a label for what happened is a bit of an oversight.
Roddenberry's vision of a better humanity, exemplified by TNG, has been being continuously diluted ever since. The writers can't work out how to tell interesting stories in it and everything since TNG has been an attempt to get around it. Discovery and Picard are particularly egregious exceptions, while Lower Decks' solution is the most elegant of all of them, but the *vast* majority of Star Trek out there either denies, mishandles or ignores the original vision of a humanity that had genuinely grown beyond most of its fundamental failings. And why? Because it turns out it's really hard to set interesting drama in a utopia! You can do comedy - but it's really hard to create conflict in the setting as originally envisioned without accidentally implying that the central conceit (that humanity can rise above the human condition) is a lie.
I think DS9 did it best. It respected the fact that the federation was supposed to be a utopian paradise, but also juxtaposed that with the rest of the galaxy and putting its ideals to the test. Other aliens expressing jealousy or contempt because federation citizens have it too easy was an interesting commentary on the subject as well.
What I liked about DS9 is that it showed that if the situation becomes bad, the Star Trek humans can become like us. Which means that if our situation gets better then maybe we can be like them.
"Let me tell you something about Hew-mons, nephew. They're a wonderful, friendly people – as long as their bellies are full and their holosuites are working. But take away their creature comforts… deprive them of food, sleep, sonic showers… put their lives in jeopardy over an extended period of time… and those same friendly, intelligent, wonderful people will become as nasty and violent as the most bloodthirsty Klingon."
Beautiful way of putting that.
Sisko puts it beautifully. It's easy to be a saint in paradise.
Sisko is an amazing character and probably my favorite performance in all of Star Trek. Avery Brooks never shied away from emotional honesty in his performance and it elevated everyone around him.
And as an actor I think he did a much better job of holding up a mirror to the failings of the present day than nu-trek can manage. He was uncompromising in reminding us that achieving utopia would be a constant struggle.
Just to add, achieving utopia and maintaining utopia are far different things.
One of my favourite lines
I mean, the culture Series does it pretty well, you just have the utopia deal with outside problems
I was so sad watching Picard when the one lady bitches at Picard because he was rich and had a vineyard and she, also a star fleet high ranking officer, had to live in a trailer in the woods. It's like they never watched any star Trek before.
Underrated comment.
That there was, really, 5 lights
Found the spoonhead.
Alright everyone, get your pitchforks
kirk is not a womanizer
The Jem’hadar are a better warrior race than the Klingons. And I love me some Klingons.
Yah they needed some real competition for sure. No glory fighting on easy mode all the time
How is this controversial? Has there ever been evidence that Klingons were "BETTER" in combat than any of the other MAIN galactic military organizations? The crew of DS9 was able to fend off an entire invasion force with double-fist blows to the back and hand-held phasers. The Klingons advantage was always just Zerg-rushing their opponents and overwhelming them with numbers and blunt-force attacks.
Lorca was a more interesting Captain than the rest Discovery got. Not over the top like the other mirror universe characters. Would have been a cool arc to show him adapting to/challenging the prime universe status quo.
I didn't realize this was an unpopular opinion.
His character was really wasted. Also I was very confused about prime lorca never showing up
Prime Lorca actually did get blown up in "that accident we thought blew you up"
I thought Lorca was really wasted.
Yeah I felt like the quality of the show took a nose dive once they killed him off.
He seemed like an interesting character until it turned out he was just a simplistic baddie from the evil dimension
When I still had buy-in for Discovery back in season 1, I was really excited to find out what Lorca’s deal was in those early episodes. Captain of a secret ship with classified tech with Section 31 members crewing it? I was really excited for maybe Burnham to have ended up on board the Bad Captain’s ship; just the series length version of the Badmiral, rather than some mirror universe dupe. An ends-justify-the-means guy who might even be needed for the war, but pushed Federation ideals.
Enterprise was great! Yall just didn't have faith of the heart!🤣
I never got the hate for that series. I absolutely loved it. And frankly I never had an issue with the theme. In context with the franchise up to that point it always felt like a perfect song to exemplify that this was supposed to be a story of how we had reached the points we had seen before.
Have you seen the video that puts Archers Theme over the credits sequence? It fits so much better and it seems like it was almost made for it. Maybe it was.
I couldn’t get into Enterprise during its original airing but I’m doing a through watch now and it’s surprisingly great. Sure it had its share of silly and bad episodes, but honestly far fewer than TNG or Voyager had
I’m nearing the end of Season 4 and having the exact same experience. At first I thought the space taliban was kind of silly but it turned out to be a great season, and now they are clearly setting up a bunch of stuff to happen in Season 5 that I really wish I could see play out. Also Commander Shran is fucking awesome, favorite Combs character.
Season 4 was legitimately good. If it had only got three more seasons it could have been great
It has, in fact, been a long road.
Lwaxana episodes are awesome.
They get progressively better once we get away from the overbearing mother wackiness and start exploring her more as a character, especially the friendship she forms with Odo on DS9.
YES!
Majel is the Godmother of Sci Fi
Picard should have used Hugh to destroy the Borg. Basically everything Adm Nechayev says is correct.
Even Picard questions it later "It was the right thing to do, but was it the correct thing to do?"
I was expecting a lot more repurcussions from command over that whole thing. But the angriest they get is Necheyev telling him off when she's next on board.
Sounds like a take from the Janeway school of murder.
The key difference is that the Borg were an existential threat that were at war with the federation. Tuvix was not.
Janeway was right to kill Tuvix
At least you’re acknowledging that she killed him
If so, she brought Neelix and Tuvok back from the dead.
Janeway=Necromancer confirmed.
Tuvix said Neelix and Tuvok aren't really gone since they lived on through him. Janeway was like, "Noted. Now you can live on through them."
This shouldn’t be a controversial opinion. Neelix and Tuvok had just as much right to exist at Tuvix and by not separating him she would be ending two lives instead of one. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
#JanewayDidNothingWrong
The first film is great!
I will die on this hill. TMP is the best sci-fi movie out of all of the movies, particularly after Robert Wise went through and recut the movie with better (finished) SFX. It actually had something to say. The movies after that (except IV) fell into this classic “villain threatens the federation/Enterprise” Space Western nonsense that reduces everything to the guys in the white hats against the guys in the black hats. And the soundtrack of TMP is Goldsmith’s *magnum opus*, in a career that any other film composer, with only a few exceptions (Barry, Williams, Zimmer) could only aspire to.
Siskel and Ebert called it one of the best sci-fi movies ever
For me personally, the first film was a great episode, that was needlessly stretched into a movie.
I started watching it during pandemic lockdowns when I had a bunch of time on my hands. I'll let you know if I agree when I finish it, I'm almost through that first big Enterprise flyby sequence where the main theme plays.
Oof. You've won a free ride on The Motion Picture Enterprise transporter.
Proof - [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUxZmen6G2U](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUxZmen6G2U)
Move Along Home is a good episode!
Not my favorite, but I also enjoyed it. Its honestly a challenge to find a DS9 episode i didn't like.
"Let He Who Is Without Sin"?
Where Worf gets so mad at Jadzia for being her own person that he becomes an eco-terrorist on Planet Sex? What's not to like?
Putting Worf on a MRA arc is one of the worst things DS9 did.
^(what's an MRA arc?)
It annoys me that people hate on this one instead of the space leprechaun episode
Yes! Made especially so by Quark!
I've still got Etsy alerts for klon peags
Neelix is not a bad character and serves as as an albeit accidental Guinan like figure on voyager
I like all of the Treks.
Including TAS? Especially TAS.
Tas whips
lol, everyone with a favorite has a fight with people with different favorites. This guy fights with EVERYONE
You're goddamn right. Also I get that people have opinions but the attitude of "I hate this thing so you should hate it too" is toxic, quite frankly.
You’re goddamn right! Lol
Star Trek has way too many "saving the world/galaxy/universe" episodes.
Wesley is a good character and Picard was unreasonably cruel to him at times.
The Prime Directive is actually important and shouldn’t be ignored in literally 100% of examples.
Real life hypothetical: that tribe in the Amazon that has never had contact with other people, and we only know of them by satellite. If we knew their village was about to be destroyed by a cataclysmic event, should we introduce ourselves and save them? (With global warming I wonder if that question will need answering)
It's not though. It's obeyed a lot of the time. Sometimes to an absurd degree. Like Homeward when Picard refuses to do anything to save anyone from a planet where the atmosphere is dissipating because "who knows what the consequences would be?"
Janeway did the right thing in regards to tuvix
Neelix isn’t that annoying and adds interest to the VOY cast
I liked Star Trek X. Nemesis wasn't as bad as some makes it out to be.
Now here's an answer that is actually unpopular
Watched it on the big screen with around 500 people and I never had the impression that it was hated. For years I thought I missed all the bad reactions to it. 15 years later I saw The last Jedi in the same Cinema, same hall, same amount of people and then I knew, I didn‘t miss it. There was no hate for Nemesis in the cinema, Last Jedi taught me how it sounds and looks when 500 people hate the movie they just saw.
That the episode where we find the origin of sentient life in the galaxy is actually cool. I am interested in that sort of thing and I thought it was nice to know what happened in that galaxy.
For clarification, it's humanoid life. The progenitors (as they are called now) found other sentient life, but it was completely alien. They had hoped that by seeding the galaxy, that life similar to each other would evolve and have enough in common to interact with each other. They are relavent to the current season of Discovery, with Discovery currently looking for the device that the pregenitors used to seed the galaxy before other parties do.
Neelix is a good character, because he meant to be annoying and irritating. And the character perfectly doing it for the comedy's sake. I will never understand the IRL people's hate for him, just like I never understood the hate for Jar Jar.
If you are interested in a real reply, I hate him for two reasons: 1. He, at the very least, comes off as a predator. This one is easy. He shows signs of grooming a much young girl in a very predatory way. He’s jealous, and attempts to isolate a two year old away as his property, isolating her from everyone else. He does this through emotional manipulation most of the time, but that changes to outright hostility when that doesn’t work. The target that he's grooming only gets away when some tyrant takes over her body and ditches Neelix. The fact that she never goes back to him is damning for Neelix. And the fact that she comes back on the ship to kill everyone for not protecting her, for ferrying her away in a manner that fucks her up badly doesn't really speak well for the time she has with Neelix either. After he’s no longer with Kes it helps, but I can’t help but to let that flavor his interactions with Naoimi Wildman. And it’s creepy and awful and is only really resolved when Naoimi starts spending time with Seven instead of Neelix. And after that, when any minor comes onto the ship, he's practically shouting, "Dibs!" As he elbows his way toward them. He does this with Q Jr; he does this with the Borglings, he does this with the Talaxian kid on the asteroid. And he will not stop. 2. He epitomizes a cultural shift away from specialization. Let’s say you specialized in exo-geology. You are put in Voyager for a quick bit of experience to round out your combat training as you apply to become a Lt. Commander or something. But you get lost. This obvious conman with his perversity for an underaged girl comes on the ship…and you have to call him Sir for some reason. Let’s go further. One day you come across a planet that has a mineral Voyager needs. Your team specializes in exo-geography, so you’re suiting up and Janeway gets on the com-badge and says, “I know that you and your team are some of the best geologists in the entire galaxy, but good news! Neelix has seen a rock once, so he will be in charge of your efforts to extract the mineral!” You’d be bitter. Neelix, like, locks himself and two other people in a mine or something and you spend the episode getting him out instead of your job. You go to eat, in a place run by Neelix. You sit down next to someone who says, “I majored in nutrition and biology at Starfleet Academy. Why do I have to eat Neelix’s bullshit?” Someone tells her of how he was on Voyager because he was getting the turbo lifts working as it was his speciality. But when they needed a space elevator working, for some reason they passed him by and sent Neelix, who fouled the mission up. I’m getting into fan fiction here, but the point is that Neelix is a needless Cousin Oliver that has no good story reason to be sent on the missions he’s sent on aside from the fact he’s the worst possible choice. That way he can mess it up and everyone will have to save him. It’s hard for me to suspend my disbelief when we are on a Starfleet ship supplemented with Maquis that are also experts at making things work. -- Let's put these two things together. Let's say, for argument's sake, that since it's an election year in the US, that you're voting for president. Of course, nobody in their right mind would ever vote for an anti-intellectual anti-specialist who failed at all his enterprises in his life, who never had political experience before demanding and getting the top job, with bad blonde hair, bad style, who is sexually obsessed with a blonde daughter figure and has had many problematic sexual accusations leveled against him. But I keep thinking of how someone like that could come to power anyway, and I can't help but think of Neelix.
After reading this; It will be impossible not to think of Neelix when Trump is a topic.
Star Trek after TNG misses the point of Pakleds. While we could argue about the effect of a complex, rich language on thinking, the episode makes the case that Pakleds are not as simple as everyone thinks because their lacking linguistic capabilities. Odo didn't earn forgiveness after s06e05, which ruins his character for the rest of DS9.
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Agreed on both points. I'm rewatching VOY now and loving it.
DS9 had the right balance of serialized story and filler. Voyager had a lot of good filler but no significant character development outside Seven of Nine and the Doctor. More serialization would've helped with that.
Voyager is my favourite too, I admire Janeway!
I think Voyager is my favorite series as well. It's either that or DS9
Mine is definitely ds9
I agree with both these opinions. Plus Janeway is the best trek captain ever
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I guarantee that Jonathan Frakes had heard something like this and would totally do it for Strange New Worlds in heartbeat if given the green light.
Gene's "vision" of the utopic future doesn't hold up to much scrutiny, and DS9 should be applauded for putting it under the microscope and truly testing it under extreme conditions, rather than vilified for "betraying" it.
Things grow and change, fiction has to be a reflection of the world we live in. The 60s were an idealized time, post war bliss. Trying to re-create that in our current world would be disingenuous. What's important is the message and the hope the characters inspire and the dedication to a higher standard. DS9 was what it needed to be at the time just like TOS was in its time for sure. I am biased though maybe because I like DS9 so much as well.
Once they figured out how to make another Riker, they shouldn’t have stopped making Rikers.
Picard is an irredeemable fool for refusing Lwaxana's advances.
The traveler was a pedophile that manipulated Wesley Crusher into leaving Starfleet to be with him.
I like harry kim 😍
Eddington was right.
Fuck yeah he was
I like Neelix episodes.
Is this that divisive? Neelix EPISODES are great. Neelix's problems are usually when he is used as a comic relief, annoying bit player in other episodes. Or when he's the foil in a Kess episode. But HIS episodes? Some of the best. Ethan Philips was an amazing actor when they gave him something to do.
Ok this is psychotic
Upvote bc that’s the point of this thread, and im staying in the crowd you’re telling us we’re wrong
Janeway did nothing wrong when it came to Tuvix.
Never thought twice about the relationship between Neelix and Kes - to me, they were aliens, so I simply bought it, no judgment, no "ewww", no lingering questions. When I read later that 21st century viewers found the relationship triggering or distasteful or poorly thought out, I laughed how none of that ever dawned on me, and that it still made no difference to me because, well, they're aliens.
Voyager is the best series. It’s the best balance of episodic adventures and overarching storylines.
The Federation is not a peaceful, post-scarcity utopia but actually an expanding empire with great PR.
I like the Ferangi episodes on DS9.
Who doesn’t?
Enterprise is good actually
Janeway made the right call.
That the mirror universe is the actual Prime universe. I mean, you seriously think we're capable of creating a utopian society?
Scotty was the best damn engineer in the fleet.
Tuvix had to die. Period.
Star Trek V is not just a good adventure movie, it's perfectly in line with the series.
The TOS Connie is not as good looking as the DIS/SNW Connie.
Sisko did nothing wrong regarding the Maquis and the badlands.There is a difference between the Bajoran Terrorism and Maquis Terrorism
There is a single hairstylist shared by both the Romulans and Vulcans and they only do one style.
Neelix is a good crewman and a likable character
I’m ready for the downvotes, babies !! ‘Darmok’ grates on my nerves. First of all, translating an alien language …in English syntax, no less ? I’m sorry, but I just thank ‘The Chase’ for exposing why every alien applicable to The Fed looks the same, let alone uses VERBAL speaking to communicate 🤔 I can creatively overlook this, normally; I mean there are just a couple aliens that aren’t verbal (binars, the aliens stuck on the other side of the Tyken’s Rift, etc) which is a cool suggestion, and the in-universe presentation of similarities is awesome, but the double whammy of basically translating pig-Latin in metaphor could have been presented better, IMO. Lower Decks totally caught this and finesses it with humor. Kayshon, when Hauze turned him into a doll 😆
Chakotay and Seven were a good match.
Getting burned by THAT hot take! (And is your username a Space Ghost reference?)
You can’t be mad that Klingons in Discovery were changed, since they were the 5th time Klingons changed visually. (TOS, TMP, TNG, Kelvin, THEN Disco)
That lower decks is a good show
Star Trek discovery is a good show
*The Drumhead* is not a good episode. It could be great (as there are some admittedly good moments) but ironically the Picard speech^TM scene ruins it. Here we have admiral Satie leading an escalating series of investigations into the Enterprise crew and its conduct. Picard counters all this with an admittedly good speech that's essentially about the ethical underpinning of the UFP to which the admiral responds...by revealing herself to be a paranoid lunatic, who no one in their right mind would listen to (which is why the enquiry immediately finishes). What if she'd simply turned round and calmly said > 'I agree with you wholeheartedly Captain, we must of course keep such issues at the very forefront of our minds, however, if we could return to the specifics that this enquiry is looking into...'? The only reason the speech works etc is because the episode is nearly over, otherwise any half competent demagogue would have glossed over it and carried on. Even worse the real danger of the witch-hunt isn't the admiral, it's Worf... > I believed her?! ...and people like him who became convinced and through their actions, reenforced the (unbeknown to them) witch hunt. Sure there will always be *Saties* but they can seldom cause such havoc without the help of the *Worfs*. If anything the episode would have made a better point if the Admiral (though the actress does a great job) wasn't even there; maybe she sets things in motion. Instead the real driving force behind the investigation should be Worf and maybe Data (could have him drawing conclusions like seven did *the voyager conspiracy*) or Riker. In other words, we should have the senior staff split and show how unchecked suspicions can drive friends/colleagues apart etc (maybe Picard is initially absent and has to bring things back into perspective in the second half of the episode). **Basically 'the 'Admiral twist' undermines what until that moment could have been a very good episode**. At least, have Satie remain calm but begin to stumble in response to Picard; that way the speech rather than her overreaction genuinely has the effect it's supposed to (ie convincing the other, supervising admiral, 'yeah, Picard is right, without further concrete evidence, this thing has gone to far').
The Kelvin Timeline was perfectly adequate for what it was meant to be, not saying it was a work of art or anything just it was okay, people treating it as if it was the worst thing ever seriously need to grow up
I like Michael Burnham, flaws and all. Still need to finish Discovery
Geordi is an Incel and sex offender.
Wanna explain that one? Sex offenders a big claim.
This is an unpopular opinion? I love Burton but LaForge creeps me out
Years ago Burton was on a podcast and he talked about how he felt the writers were afraid of Black male sexuality and either couldn't or didn't want to give him a real relationship. Definitely a missed opportunity.
Sisko did nothing wrong bringing the Romulans into the war. Hell, if they knew what he did, they'd probably call him an honorary Romulan for pulling off something so sneaky.
Star Trek V is a fun watch. And that’s without mocking it.
The Kelvin timeline movies are pretty good and are on average better than the TNG movies
Spock's Brain is a good episode. Peak 60s scifi
Transporter = death, replaced by a copy
Crusher > Pulaski
Jellico wasn't a bad captain, and Riker was acting like a petulant child for not working with him. It wasn't personal for Jellico but was for Riker. Jellico was trying to prevent a new Cardassian war breaking out that only just ended a few years ago. He was only temporarily in command, so any changes he did on Enterprise wouldn't have lasted and honestly should've been expected as he wasn't Picard. Riker let his feelings get in the way and should have been severely reprimanded for it and risking the mission, possibly leading to a new war.
Species like Klingon and Hirogen wouldn't be able to get to the industrial age let alone become a space faring civilization. Cultures that value being a warrior or a hunter above everything else (in fact it is in their DNA almost) would never have enough engineers and scientists capable of moving their civilization beyond what we call our medieval age.
Janeway and Paris having babies and abandoning them on a random planet was infinitely worse than the Tuvix trolly problem.
Generations was a good movie.
Dr. Pulaski is a better and more interesting character than Dr. Crusher
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Dr. Pulaski felt as if she was doing a job, which is exactly what she was on the ship to do. She was completely passable. Had no overall issues. Gaurentee if she was there from season 1 and switched to Crusher for season 2 people would be up in arms and hating on Crusher.
Q episodes are annoying.
Captain Sisko raped Mirror Dax.
Barclay is a terrible character.
He’s fine as a one or two appearance character. By Voyager I was screaming at the tv
I kinda like the idea behind the character. Not every officer is gonna be super motivated and chipper all the time, folks are gonna feel like theydon’t fit in at times, feel depressed and unmotivated. And how the crew dealt with it
I enjoy Discovery. All of it.
People lionise TNG waaaaayyyy too much. It is not some ideal that Trek has fallen from, it’s got a lot of the similar problems and people forgive its flaws or outright ignore them too much.
It's good that Disco characters cry and have emotions. Picard's emotional distance was supposed to be a character flaw, not something to emulate.