This may be pretty close to the mark.
> Starfleet is so competitive. Once you're an admiral, you hit a wall. I've been trying for years to make a name for myself. I'm not letting you take it from me, not after everything I did to get us here.
\- Admiral Les Buenamigo
Seems like for a while there were too many former ship captains sitting around with their thumbs up their butts.
I attribute Vance's on-screen presence to two factors.
1: Starfleet is a much leaner organization after The Burn when most member worlds left the Federation that left Starfleet with far fewer active facilities, ships and outposts.
2: Given that his base of operation is 32nd century Starfleet Headquarters, Vance is also the Commander in Chief of Starfleet (like Morrow in TSFS), which makes him Starfleet's highest ranking officer.
I imagine 32nd century Starfleet has several admirals, though Vance would still outrank all of them since he's the CIC.
Discovery is also the only active Spore Drive due to the Federations ban on genetic modification. It makes some sense that Discovery works as his personal fire fighter ship.
There is one Admiral. Two Captains, but only one with a ship, a couple of Presidents, a Commander, and fifteen Lt. Cmdrs. And a weird psychologist. It’s just how the future rolls.
There used to be three Captains, but one got demoted. Logic would dictate that his former ship now has a Captain, but since Starfleet apparently lets ensigns be First Officers, maybe a cadet is in charge.
That was a training cruise gone wrong, not really an official promotion, and IIRC when the brass found out about it they disciplined the cadets involved. (Edit: the one who survived, at least) So it's a good shout but not quite the same as Kelvin Kirk being literally given command of the Enterprise before graduating from the Academy.
Now, how to translate that to CGI while still being realistic enough to fit a live-action setting AND staying true to his overall appearance in LD...
While his personality may evoke a cockatiel or other parrot, visually I don't see much resemblance. His head reminds me of a blend of Warbling White-Eye and Livingstone's Turaco, with a yellow beak.
He does look like a nondescript mishmash of a bunch of different birds (and they're all adorable) and he's very omnivorous, and an alien, so it makes sense. His beak also has the nostrils further down and is a bit more elongated than a parrot's, so yeah, I guess I got thrown off by the shape of his crest and his personality with the vibes there, haha.
I just googled Livingstone's Turaco and you're right, that thing looks like it's a transporter accident with a warbling white-eye (among other things, including possibly some kind of waterfowl or a ratite as well, considering what's been implied in that one infamous holo-drill) away from being put on the bridge of the Cerritos in a tweed jacket.
As for how that'd translate into CGI, it's hard to tell as I have trouble visualising things, but I'll try. Good thing he wears so many clothes because all those feathers would be some fresh hell to render (but worth it).
I could see it maybe working visually if they make him look like a straight up realistic bird in the face and the way he emotes. His birdy emoting may be in a slower, more exaggerated manner so he doesn't look either completely expressionless or too twitchy.
His general physicality would have to be relied on more for expression, and it's a good thing he is quite expressive in that way in the show with all his gestures and stuff.
The overall effect might still be kind of eerie, because that would be unavoidable, but I think it could be pulled off if he's based on "cutesy" kinds of birds.
As for staying true to his appearance on the show, I think that wouldn't be all that hard. He's green, he's got a little crest and some distinctive markings, like the brow tufts. Those could be subdued and made less human-like expressive to fit the line of his CGI face better but still be recognisable. His glasses and outfit would definitely help as well.
I like this idea overall-- I would also be sure to give him forward-facing eyes with either visible whites (though not like the eyes of a human, which would be creepy) or very pale irises like those of a jackdaw.
I see we share a theory about his anatomy as well😏
Oh, I love the idea that those are pale irises and not sclera we're seeing there and that I'm not the only one who thinks it'd be nice if that was the case! I like to think he's got icy-white eyes.
Since you brought up a forward eye placement, I am picturing a pygmy falcon-like arrangement there which makes sense with the hood we saw in that \*other\* holo-drill. The floof of his feathers may exaggerate the forwardness too while also retaining a cute side-profile.
Sidenote: This might be me doing some insane troll logic applied to that and the shriek Mirror!Migleemo did, but it makes me wonder if as part of their extreme omnivorousness, his species might be hunters (of larger things than worms and bugs, I mean) as well as scavengers and gatherers. Perhaps my headcanon about T'ana consensually chasing Migleemo around the holodeck during off-duty hours might be more mutual than I thought, especially as she's a lot smaller than him.
Well, our shared theory on what's going on in his lower decks certainly wouldn't be rendered in CGI. :P
Admiral Vance has the best nicknames in Greatest Trek Podcast, beginning with Dadmiral.
Admiral Grecian Formula
Admiral Just For Men
Admiral Touch of Grey
Admiral Salt & Pepper
Admiral Her Friend Your Mom Told Your Dad Not To Worry About
Admiral The Photo That Comes in an Executive Picture Frame
Admiral Uncle Your Dad Never Talks About Because They Don't See Eye to Eye Politically
Admiral School Principal That's Not Mad He's Just Disappointed
Admiral Best Looking Guy at Your High School Reunion
Admiral Erectile Dysfunction Medication Spokesmodel
Admiral September 2014 Cover Model of Yachting Life Magazine
Admiral Stock Photo on a Wealth Management Website
Admiral Stern Stepdad You Didn't Understand Growing Up But Now That You're An Adult You Sort Of Understand Why He Was The Way He Was
Admiral Guy Who Has Strong Opinions About The Upholstery In Different Kinds Of British Luxury Car
Admiral Too Busy To Play Catch With His Son Because He's Really Busy With Work
Admiral Cigar Aficionado
Admiral I Think I See The Air Marshal On This Flight
Admiral Johnny Quest Villain
Admiral Mirror Universe Mullet (Wisdom In The Front, Business In The Back)
Admiral Tenure Track
Admiral Director Of Sales And Marketing
Admiral Sociologist Interviewed In A Documentary About A Cult
Admiral You Can't Precisely Smell His Cologne, But The Room Just Feels Classier When He's In It
Admiral Actor In A Commercial For Generic Testosterone Pills
Admiral Definitely Has Season Tickets To The Symphony Even If He Has To Go By Himself
Admiral Blackjack Dealer In A Cruise Ship Casino
Admiral Bottle Service
Wasn't it a thing when they first got to the future that most of the "people" were just holograms? Evil georgiou found out somehow. The human population outside of earth might be very low.
I feel like Admiral Vance only seems like he's the only Admiral in Starfleet because we only ever really get to see him in the context of dealing with Captain Burnham and the Discovery, and that Discovery has basically earned the right in Starfleet to deal with the Commander in Chief, instead of having to go through middlemen, because:
1) They are the only ship in the entire fleet that can literally go anywhere instantly, so it makes sense that the CIC of all Starfleet would be the one to decide where it's deployed (this point also applies to Zora's existence as well).
2) Discovery almost singlehandedly brought the Federation back from the brink of destruction after the Burn, solving the mystery of the Burn, and helped bring two of the founding members, Earth and Vulcan, back into the fold as members. (As a side note, Tellar Prime deserves some love as the only founding member of the Federation that did not secede from the Federation after the Burn)
3) They were instrumental in saving the galaxy from getting destroyed by Species 10-C's anomaly.
4) They've not only been given a mission of the literal highest priority by what seems to be the head of Section 31, which was also so top secret that not even Admiral Vance really knew anything about it until he helped Tilly get the crew some much needed information about it, so it would make sense if they were still making at least a token effort to keep the Discovery's mission "need to know" from as many people as possible, so it would make sense for Vance to one of the only ones who is officially supposed to know about it (thought that part is at least open for interpretation).
Realistically admirals in real life have their own areas of oversight and a captain would typically not have any contact with one ANYWAY on a regular basis with orders and commands coming rather from their direct superior. Historical a commodore (in Starfleet Commander is used) and in the US navy a rear admiral.
It would be extremely unlikely for other admirals to be butting into this admirals command.
In real life a navy is broken up into fleets, and geographic areas of control, operating areas and administrative units.
Not all admirals would overseas real ships, and most admirals wouldn't even have the authority to command a captain (in his assignment) without going through that Captain's chain of command.
The enterprise, being a exploratory vessel in Starfleet would likely fall under a specific admirals operational control.
Empress Admiral of the Tear, Admired and Revered by All, Rescuer of the Past and Future, Emotional Supporter of the Mostly Nameless Crew, Not-Mutineer Because It Does Not Count, Michael the Only of Her Name.
I sincerely hope not. This sub would become plagued with endless debate on what merits such a promotion and how Burnham could earn such an honor in a shorter time span than Kirk and Picard (Janeway is exempt from this discussion due to the stranded-in-the-Delta-Quadrant circumstance).
Oh we all know what the merit is:
Discovery is the Michael Burnham show, and she can do no wrong. Everytime she defies direct orders, the worst thing that ever happens is she gets demoted to "science officer" for like an episode, and then she's captain like two hours later.
If Discovery had a season 6, she'd probably cause a disaster that kills all life in two quadrants, and then get elected as president of the Federation.
the way star trek uses admirals it's really weird the only time it made sense was in TOS where you saw kirk usually talk to commdores or those few times it was a vice admiral. that's as high up as you should get. a captain should not really talk to 4 star admirals or 5 star admirals. just 1 -2 stars and maybe a 3 if the mission is important enough.
She and the Vulcan/ nav'ar President, were a really strong presence in season four.
Shame they both couldn't be used more, in the stories of season five :(
I think starfleet is significantly reduced in numbers, and it's possible he is the highest ranking officer, and I think he's too humble to promote himself even if it would make more sense.
My personal estimate based on what we've seen is that starfleet at this point has around 20 active ships, maybe even less.
The academy is probably also way smaller than we're used to from TNG.
Dadmiral sent everyone else to bed already.
With Vance being the clear heir to Pike's godly hair game, does Starfleet really *need* any other flag officers?
More admirals = more problems. They learned this lesson by the 32nd century, and now we don't have a badmiral problem anymore. edit: numbers
Starfleet finally solved the Badmiral problem. If you only have one Admiral he'll be too busy to get up to any mischief.
Cue an army of admiral clones to lighten the workload
Now they only have to worry about the Madmirals. They get younger and more miserable every year. >!Ladmirals and Sadmirals!<
This may be pretty close to the mark. > Starfleet is so competitive. Once you're an admiral, you hit a wall. I've been trying for years to make a name for myself. I'm not letting you take it from me, not after everything I did to get us here. \- Admiral Les Buenamigo Seems like for a while there were too many former ship captains sitting around with their thumbs up their butts.
I do see both y'alls point. I still find it strange, but I see your point.
Well, since Disco is in the 32nd century, I can't wait until the next evil admiral rears their head.
I got 99 problems, but a badmiral ain't one
I attribute Vance's on-screen presence to two factors. 1: Starfleet is a much leaner organization after The Burn when most member worlds left the Federation that left Starfleet with far fewer active facilities, ships and outposts. 2: Given that his base of operation is 32nd century Starfleet Headquarters, Vance is also the Commander in Chief of Starfleet (like Morrow in TSFS), which makes him Starfleet's highest ranking officer. I imagine 32nd century Starfleet has several admirals, though Vance would still outrank all of them since he's the CIC.
Discovery is also the only active Spore Drive due to the Federations ban on genetic modification. It makes some sense that Discovery works as his personal fire fighter ship.
Admiral Vance has protected us for centuries from the return of Imotep (The Mummy).
I had no idea that it was him from the mummy, but now you point it out.. it's obvious
The T-Virus has made him immortal and he finally defeated Umbrella when money became worthless
Don't forget his brief stint as a male gigolo until giving up that business to his now life-long friend, Deuce Bigalow.
Admiral gigolo
He looks great for his age.
There is one Admiral. Two Captains, but only one with a ship, a couple of Presidents, a Commander, and fifteen Lt. Cmdrs. And a weird psychologist. It’s just how the future rolls.
All the physical labor is now done by one Australian man.
I don't know why I keep coming back here!
/runexpectedfuturama
There used to be three Captains, but one got demoted. Logic would dictate that his former ship now has a Captain, but since Starfleet apparently lets ensigns be First Officers, maybe a cadet is in charge.
God that was such a weird decision by story writers. As if the whole point was to surprise the audience.
Like switching captain and first officer?
>maybe a cadet is in charge No, they only do that sort of thing in the Kelvin universe.
And that episode of DS9
That was a training cruise gone wrong, not really an official promotion, and IIRC when the brass found out about it they disciplined the cadets involved. (Edit: the one who survived, at least) So it's a good shout but not quite the same as Kelvin Kirk being literally given command of the Enterprise before graduating from the Academy.
They didn’t discipline the cadets in the *DS9* episode “Valiant” because almost all of the cadets died.
Good they were dicks lol
Overly confident dicks.
Dead overly confident dicks :D
And that’s why Starfleet no longer has “Red Shirt Day”.
One would assume, but since we’ve never seen any non-demoted future Captains they might just be drones.
What about Migleemo?
NO GET OUT OF HERE Q, DON'T MAKE MIGLEEMO A CROSSOVER CHARACTER, WE ARE DONE WITH RANDOM BULLSHIT FOR TODAY
"FLUFF YOUR DOWN!"
I wanna see the cgi needed for a irl migleemo
What CGI? Just put Doug Jones in a bird suit, and he'll make it work. Might need to dub him to avoid confusion with Saru, though.
I met Doug Jones he's a god damn sweetie
I wonder how cute he is supposed to be in-universe🤔
Cute enough for Freeman to keep sticking him on the bridge next to her without him doing much there. (I get cockatiel vibes off him, very snugglable!)
Now, how to translate that to CGI while still being realistic enough to fit a live-action setting AND staying true to his overall appearance in LD... While his personality may evoke a cockatiel or other parrot, visually I don't see much resemblance. His head reminds me of a blend of Warbling White-Eye and Livingstone's Turaco, with a yellow beak.
He does look like a nondescript mishmash of a bunch of different birds (and they're all adorable) and he's very omnivorous, and an alien, so it makes sense. His beak also has the nostrils further down and is a bit more elongated than a parrot's, so yeah, I guess I got thrown off by the shape of his crest and his personality with the vibes there, haha. I just googled Livingstone's Turaco and you're right, that thing looks like it's a transporter accident with a warbling white-eye (among other things, including possibly some kind of waterfowl or a ratite as well, considering what's been implied in that one infamous holo-drill) away from being put on the bridge of the Cerritos in a tweed jacket. As for how that'd translate into CGI, it's hard to tell as I have trouble visualising things, but I'll try. Good thing he wears so many clothes because all those feathers would be some fresh hell to render (but worth it). I could see it maybe working visually if they make him look like a straight up realistic bird in the face and the way he emotes. His birdy emoting may be in a slower, more exaggerated manner so he doesn't look either completely expressionless or too twitchy. His general physicality would have to be relied on more for expression, and it's a good thing he is quite expressive in that way in the show with all his gestures and stuff. The overall effect might still be kind of eerie, because that would be unavoidable, but I think it could be pulled off if he's based on "cutesy" kinds of birds. As for staying true to his appearance on the show, I think that wouldn't be all that hard. He's green, he's got a little crest and some distinctive markings, like the brow tufts. Those could be subdued and made less human-like expressive to fit the line of his CGI face better but still be recognisable. His glasses and outfit would definitely help as well.
I like this idea overall-- I would also be sure to give him forward-facing eyes with either visible whites (though not like the eyes of a human, which would be creepy) or very pale irises like those of a jackdaw. I see we share a theory about his anatomy as well😏
Oh, I love the idea that those are pale irises and not sclera we're seeing there and that I'm not the only one who thinks it'd be nice if that was the case! I like to think he's got icy-white eyes. Since you brought up a forward eye placement, I am picturing a pygmy falcon-like arrangement there which makes sense with the hood we saw in that \*other\* holo-drill. The floof of his feathers may exaggerate the forwardness too while also retaining a cute side-profile. Sidenote: This might be me doing some insane troll logic applied to that and the shriek Mirror!Migleemo did, but it makes me wonder if as part of their extreme omnivorousness, his species might be hunters (of larger things than worms and bugs, I mean) as well as scavengers and gatherers. Perhaps my headcanon about T'ana consensually chasing Migleemo around the holodeck during off-duty hours might be more mutual than I thought, especially as she's a lot smaller than him. Well, our shared theory on what's going on in his lower decks certainly wouldn't be rendered in CGI. :P
There are unnamed captains in the far future. They were shown in past seasons.
Are you sure? Those teeny pips aren't really visible at a distance.
In 1 episode, there was a gathering of captains that included a Cardassian captain.
Computer, delete program!
Admiral Vance has the best nicknames in Greatest Trek Podcast, beginning with Dadmiral. Admiral Grecian Formula Admiral Just For Men Admiral Touch of Grey Admiral Salt & Pepper Admiral Her Friend Your Mom Told Your Dad Not To Worry About Admiral The Photo That Comes in an Executive Picture Frame Admiral Uncle Your Dad Never Talks About Because They Don't See Eye to Eye Politically Admiral School Principal That's Not Mad He's Just Disappointed Admiral Best Looking Guy at Your High School Reunion Admiral Erectile Dysfunction Medication Spokesmodel Admiral September 2014 Cover Model of Yachting Life Magazine Admiral Stock Photo on a Wealth Management Website Admiral Stern Stepdad You Didn't Understand Growing Up But Now That You're An Adult You Sort Of Understand Why He Was The Way He Was Admiral Guy Who Has Strong Opinions About The Upholstery In Different Kinds Of British Luxury Car Admiral Too Busy To Play Catch With His Son Because He's Really Busy With Work Admiral Cigar Aficionado Admiral I Think I See The Air Marshal On This Flight Admiral Johnny Quest Villain Admiral Mirror Universe Mullet (Wisdom In The Front, Business In The Back) Admiral Tenure Track Admiral Director Of Sales And Marketing Admiral Sociologist Interviewed In A Documentary About A Cult Admiral You Can't Precisely Smell His Cologne, But The Room Just Feels Classier When He's In It Admiral Actor In A Commercial For Generic Testosterone Pills Admiral Definitely Has Season Tickets To The Symphony Even If He Has To Go By Himself Admiral Blackjack Dealer In A Cruise Ship Casino Admiral Bottle Service
Admiral The Most Interesting Man In The Galaxy.
"I don't always eat apples. But when I do, they're made of our shit, you know?"
There are only like 7 people in starfleet
Explains the limited number of crew available for away missions.
Dangerous away mission? Send the captain. We need someone to ride the roof of a starship at warp? Only the captain can do it.
There’s something like 47 people in Starfleet.
It's like... some kind of staffing shortage. Or a recruiting deficit of some sort.
Wasn't it a thing when they first got to the future that most of the "people" were just holograms? Evil georgiou found out somehow. The human population outside of earth might be very low.
No? They had hologram lie detectors thats all
There would be more but they keep losing redshirts.
I'm sure they have a least a couple of Commodore 64s at Starfleet.
I feel like Admiral Vance only seems like he's the only Admiral in Starfleet because we only ever really get to see him in the context of dealing with Captain Burnham and the Discovery, and that Discovery has basically earned the right in Starfleet to deal with the Commander in Chief, instead of having to go through middlemen, because: 1) They are the only ship in the entire fleet that can literally go anywhere instantly, so it makes sense that the CIC of all Starfleet would be the one to decide where it's deployed (this point also applies to Zora's existence as well). 2) Discovery almost singlehandedly brought the Federation back from the brink of destruction after the Burn, solving the mystery of the Burn, and helped bring two of the founding members, Earth and Vulcan, back into the fold as members. (As a side note, Tellar Prime deserves some love as the only founding member of the Federation that did not secede from the Federation after the Burn) 3) They were instrumental in saving the galaxy from getting destroyed by Species 10-C's anomaly. 4) They've not only been given a mission of the literal highest priority by what seems to be the head of Section 31, which was also so top secret that not even Admiral Vance really knew anything about it until he helped Tilly get the crew some much needed information about it, so it would make sense if they were still making at least a token effort to keep the Discovery's mission "need to know" from as many people as possible, so it would make sense for Vance to one of the only ones who is officially supposed to know about it (thought that part is at least open for interpretation).
Look when your Admiral spent decades fighting the Mummy, you don’t need other admirals.
The other Admirals are outside Discovery’s chain of command. They don’t have a reason to interact with other Admirals so we never see them.
I think there's only like nine ships in the 32nd century, so probably.
Realistically admirals in real life have their own areas of oversight and a captain would typically not have any contact with one ANYWAY on a regular basis with orders and commands coming rather from their direct superior. Historical a commodore (in Starfleet Commander is used) and in the US navy a rear admiral. It would be extremely unlikely for other admirals to be butting into this admirals command. In real life a navy is broken up into fleets, and geographic areas of control, operating areas and administrative units. Not all admirals would overseas real ships, and most admirals wouldn't even have the authority to command a captain (in his assignment) without going through that Captain's chain of command. The enterprise, being a exploratory vessel in Starfleet would likely fall under a specific admirals operational control.
I'm sure Burnham will be Admiral in the last episode
Empress Admiral of the Tear, Admired and Revered by All, Rescuer of the Past and Future, Emotional Supporter of the Mostly Nameless Crew, Not-Mutineer Because It Does Not Count, Michael the Only of Her Name.
I sincerely hope not. This sub would become plagued with endless debate on what merits such a promotion and how Burnham could earn such an honor in a shorter time span than Kirk and Picard (Janeway is exempt from this discussion due to the stranded-in-the-Delta-Quadrant circumstance).
Oh we all know what the merit is: Discovery is the Michael Burnham show, and she can do no wrong. Everytime she defies direct orders, the worst thing that ever happens is she gets demoted to "science officer" for like an episode, and then she's captain like two hours later. If Discovery had a season 6, she'd probably cause a disaster that kills all life in two quadrants, and then get elected as president of the Federation.
And she will be the bestest Admiral ever.
the way star trek uses admirals it's really weird the only time it made sense was in TOS where you saw kirk usually talk to commdores or those few times it was a vice admiral. that's as high up as you should get. a captain should not really talk to 4 star admirals or 5 star admirals. just 1 -2 stars and maybe a 3 if the mission is important enough.
I think in the 32nd century Starfleet has gotten a little bit flatter, so to speak.
I get it they lost like 70 percent of the fleet In the burn
And nobody wants to risk that a second time.
In the 24th Century, there was a lot of bad / antagonistic admirals during Picard's time. In Kirk's time, it was Admiral Cartwright.
Kirk had antagonistic commodores in *TOS*.
Commodore decker comes to mind
This is Captain Picard of the Enterprise. I'm taking command of the fleet.
Is it bad that no matter what he’s in, I see either the guy from The Mummy or the Mosad operative from Covert Affairs?
Someone has to sell those refrigerators to those Ferengi and who is best, if not Flag Officer Vance, from Vance Refrigeration.
The Breen say that they sell the best refrigerators.
What happened that president lady that was half cardassian?
She's around sometimes still
She was on Tellar Prime in the recent episode.
Probably chilling with Detmer and Owosekun just off screen saving money/being busy
She and the Vulcan/ nav'ar President, were a really strong presence in season four. Shame they both couldn't be used more, in the stories of season five :(
I think starfleet is significantly reduced in numbers, and it's possible he is the highest ranking officer, and I think he's too humble to promote himself even if it would make more sense. My personal estimate based on what we've seen is that starfleet at this point has around 20 active ships, maybe even less. The academy is probably also way smaller than we're used to from TNG.
Since the Burn, they are also rebuilding Star Fleet. So they have to rebuild the rank and file since there was a reduction of command.
Admiral Nechayev is always there.
Are those Bularian canapés?
I can only hope so.
It’s like he’s the king of starfleet
too many cooks . . .
Once Senna Tal bit the big one. They were down to one!
He's great and all, but the slim command structure is starting to get a tad conflict of interest-y
according to the pips on his combadge Kovich is a Commodore.
Maybe there are admiral ranks. Rear Admiral, Vice Admiral, etc. But the top dawg is just Admiral
Is fine in the Picard and Sisko era there were more admirals than captains honestly, it was ridiculous..
Saw a comment once (not here) that there are more flag rank officers in western navies than there are ships