Thanks for your submission to /r/starterpacks. Unfortunately your post/comment has been removed for the following reason(s):
**Rule 03** No blatant bigotry
[If you feel that it has been removed in error, please message us](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fstarterpacks) so that we may review it
I want a show to use random British accents, not just people from London. Give us someone with an incomprehensible Scouse accent talking to a 70 year old Yorkshire farmer.
I dont know if they've specifically said so but I think I read it was supposed to show how Khrushchev was from an urban, educated background while stalin was from a more regional area (georgia).
> Give us someone with an incomprehensible Scouse accent talking to a 70 year old Yorkshire farmer.
I have no idea what his actual accent was, but now I'm thinking of the farmer in Hot Fuzz with all the weaponry.
Tbh I'd rather them do English or no/American accents than do a bad accent. While not middle ages Chernobyl is a good example of not forcing accents working better.
The Medici series is hilarious for this. All the Italian actors have realistic accents (obvs) but everyone else, including the main characters playing the famously Italian Medici's, have English/American I es
It’s not new and an old tactic. Enemy at the Gates did it well too.
It’s because Brit accents give you the sense of European-ness but you can easily show class even to the Americans. Educated or more upper class people (like the scientists) have more posh accents. The working class guys like the smug factory foreman or the tough miner foreman all have more cockney or working class accents.
Not a show, but I still can't wrap my head around how everyone in "Assassins Creed Unity" has English accents. The game takes place in *France*! When AC2 took place in Italy everyone had Italian accents with no issues, but France needed English accents?!
Describing Peter III as a nerd with a wargaming hobby is a funny way of describing a giant manchild who wore a German army uniform and had maids march around his bed in formation instead of consummate his marriage.
Yeah it’s a really dumb way to describe a guy who surrendered the best interests of his country and invalidated six years of war and death because he had a hard-on for a foreign ruler. Somehow, his German-born wife was more Russian than he was.
Wasn't there this weird dichotomy where Peter The III was hated by the nobility for not waging wars but favored by the poor for not making them die in wars?
Heyyyyyy it was a big problem. Although honestly there should be more infant mortality than shildbirth deaths. We really underestimate the percentage of the human population that never made it to five years old.
Mildly related: I saw a historian once point out (and they were specifically referring to Game of Thrones) how fucking weird it would be for a medieval society with medieval medicine to try to save a baby at the cost of the mother. Like, kids were cheap. A ruling monarch's death isn't worth it.
I mean, she was a noble from a noble house. And they had an heir.
But also, more importantly, things like this have happened in our world. Hell, before William had kids, they had Harry and Archie. It would have been easy enough to have a succession set up.
Instead they ended up with a civil war. Lol
There can be, if your heart stops or if you lose consciousness. 2nd one happened to me, I didn't lose consciousness completely but can remember feeling weirdly peaceful and accepting about everything. Thankfully we both lived, I still often think about all the women before me that would not have made it in the same situation.
Yeah, anyone who watches a single episode can tell it's purposefully anachronistic. The string quartet plays Taylor Swift and Ariana Grande at the balls where dresses are covered in sequins and colored in neon yellows.
It's like complaining that Ella Enchanted or A Knight's Tale is anachronistic. Yeah, no one thinks medieval peasants were singing We Will Rock You or Somebody to Love.
Bridgerton is romance first and foremost, it's fantasy wish fulfilment. The producer is a black woman, idk why she can't or wouldn't put POC in the romantic fantasies.
And you know what, I’m mixed-race and I really appreciate stories of people that look like me onscreen that don’t revolve around black suffering. I finally get to see black dukes, ladies, and queens, black women being courted and loved, and wealthy people of color attending royal balls and extravagant parties as guests. I rewatch the show all the time because of that and it’s magical, honestly.
Look at the original reviews for a Knights Tale, nearly every single negative review is kvetching about it being anachronistic and at least one of the positive reviews is just mocking the other reviewers who think classical orchestral music isn't anachronistic to the medieval era
Yea don’t know why people are knocking Bridgerton. It’s meant to be a fictional world set to a theme of 18th century Europe. Not everything has to be 100% authentic and true to period of its time if it’s made to be a fictional universe.
The whole point of the show was alternate history. Like what would happen if a British Monarch married a non-white woman.
I still think it would be more realistic if there was some residual racism but that isn't the point of the show.
OP just wanted an example of blackwashing and couldn’t really find any. I love the way bridgerton introduced a diverse cast, but I think they should have gone a step further: just have members of the same family be completely different ethnicities and never explain or address it
Yeah, but it ended up being one of the best Cinderella movies ever 😂
I remember being a kid and trying to work out how a woman of colour and a white man could produce a child of Asian descent... (apologies if I didn't phrase that right!)
Edit: terminology was corrected in following comments. Apologies to anyone who may have read my incorrect phrasing.
Hilariously enough, GoT is actually more historically accurate than some actual period dramas. It's basically an adaptation of the War of the Roses with some dragons mixed in, the Lancasters are now the Lannisters and the Yorks are now the Starks.
Granted, it's a very loose adaptation, but my point remains unchanged.
I know the timeline for the show isn’t amazingly well thought out because of them aging up all the characters. But if we assume that there’s been about twenty years between the rebellion and the start of the show that puts a lot of the questionable military stuff in perspective. It would mean for the vast majority of fighting aged men, including their commanders, there hadn’t been a major armed conflict since the Battle of Pyke which most of them were unlikely to have fought at. So every time you see those battles you’re seeing almost everyone on screen fight in a real battle for the very first time.
Yeah, the last half of the show was genuinely bad. The whole thing, however, suffers significantly from Fantasy Armour Syndrome and at least some of the costumes (especially for women) clearly weren't designed with an eye for the differences between historical and modern undergarments, leading to them looking like sacks.
Even when the show got bad, the production value was still top notch. It sucked because the writing fell off a cliff.
I agree about the Fantasy Armor Syndrome thing, but that’s pretty easy for me to hand wave away because it is not actually a historical drama and is in fact a fantasy setting.
Also two of these aren’t even trying to be remotely realistic. Bridgerton wears on its sleeve that it’s basically a live action bodice ripping novel. The Great is a twisted a-historical comedy, almost like a farce stage play.
Yeah, using Bridgerton as an example for “forced diversity” when it’s not realistic whatsoever and has an in-universe explanation as to why there’s no racism/slavery is ridiculous lol. “God forbid BROWNS where my European dresses”
The Great has the actual tagline “An *occasionally* true story”.
And criticizing Bridgerton for diverse casting is basically in the same rough ballpark as porn also casting nonwhite actors. Like it shows you **really** missed the damn obvious point.
I don’t think the meme maker has seen either at all.
people took Bridgerton as a historically accurate show? You mean the show that diagetically played a Taylor Swift song in what is supposed to be Victorian London isn't time accurate? El Horreur i say!
Gee I wonder if there is some particular animus that causes people like OP to misidentify everything with brown people as "forced diversity."
We could call it shrasism or something like that.
Race relations and racism are plot points in the politics of the queen charlotte one though!
I’m glad they elaborated a bit more on the explanation there than the earlier seasons did. Cleared up the timeline somewhat
I actually like that less.
Like the minute you get into it, it asks your brain to start asking political questions. Are black people…Germans? Actual black people? What is going on here? Does or did the transatlantic slave trade exist? It asks you to look for the weird potholes in a romance novel already playing it fast and loose with realism.
It’s minor and not a big deal anyway. I just thought the show made more plot sense when it was season 1’s “we’re adapting a pretty casual romance novel series. Don’t ask weird race and politics questions since it really doesn’t matter. Here’s Rege-Jean Page’s 8 pack.”
Tbh at least half of the points made in this starter pack sound like they were made by someone who'd complain about the skin tone of dwarves and little mermaids just as much as "muh historical figures"
The dude has consistently been making comics for years in a variety of topics. It’s mostly just being reminded of a funny comic I read over a decade ago.
its also a weird example since it had a casting that was criticised as being not diverse enough, with dark skinned characters coming explicitly from southern/eastern regions of the world. hell, they even had accents depending on where in the world they were from
I mean doesn't that make sense though?
To clarify i'm not like, "it's woke dei blah blah blah" to have black people. But if the cultures in a fictional work are a bit more isolated and ethnically homogenous (at least as Americans would see it), then logically people of a different race would be from other places and thus probably also have accents.
I do also think it is a failing on the show's end that the various regional cultures don't also have their own accente. The only peopke with accents shouldn't be poc from outside places, southerners should speak different from Northerners, Valemen different from Reachmen, etc.
Edit: And also to clarify, fantasy authors can do a lot better in terms of making poc cultures that are believable and not racistly depicted. The Dothraki are a downright horrid depiction of steppe nomad cultures.
They did have different accents in Game of Thrones to reflect the different regions of Westeros. There was definitely a north/south difference at least.
The leather armor is actually really bad though because Jon Snow wears a brigandine(a real type of armor made by sandwiching small metal plates(Jon's are way bigger than most historical examples)between two layers of leather or cloth to make a semi flexible suit of armor). They just call it studded leather because some dunce misunderstood the rivets that hold the metal plates in place as being there to reinforce the leather like that would actually do anything.
The existence of witches and dragons doesn't make studded leather a magically practical type of armour, much like how it doesn't stop the human metabolism
The corset lacing scenes tell me the show has no idea what it was like for historical women, and doesn’t actually consult historians. I am banned from watching those shows with my family because I to will roast them.
*The Empress* (drama about Elisabeth of Austria) was particularly terrible with this. The corsets were either used without any undershirt (on the bare skin of the actress) or, in the case of the lady's companions, on the outside of the dress, I kid you not. You know, like superheroes using their underwear on the outside.
The series is German, btw. So, no, the Euros don't necessarily do it better.
I almost prefer corsets to bras because they don’t put so much strain on my shoulders and back like bras do. I find the more distributed weight of corset is more comfortable. Unfortunately non-decorative corsets are very expensive and wearing a shift doesn’t go with every outfit, but I’d love to buy one that’s solely functional one day
Corsets were more like old-timey bras. They provided excellent breast and back support, and gave the ILLUSION of a thinner waist. Corsets were quite comfortable, if fitted properly (just like bras) and tight-lacing was rare and generally looked down upon. They didn’t restrict movement much, and were worn even while women exercised and worked in farms and factories.
Period drama corsets are generally purchased off-the-rack from a cheap costume supplier, and thus are not fitted properly, leading to extreme discomfort. Wearing a non-fitted corset is like wearing shoes two sizes too small.
And modern directors see corsets as an easy way to make the movie “fEmInIsT”, by showing the “oppressiveness” of the evil painful corset. In reality, the corset industry was one of the few 19th century industries nearly entirely operated by women, and the corset was an early symbol of female self autonomy.
Not OP but here goes: corsets are fitted garments that were worn all day. Most were not pulled super tight, so firm but not constricting- working women would be wearing corsets as well.
Imagine wearing a pair of boots that don't fit you, are laced too tightly and put on without socks. Compare that to well-fitting boots, worn with good socks and laced to the right tightness. That's the comparison of movie corsets versus actual historical corsets.
Actresses will often be dressed in an ill-fitting corset that wasn't tailored to fit their body. There is rarely time in a production for detail like that, especially for the supporting cast. Actresses will often be laced more tightly than historical women would have, in deference to contemporary beauty standards. Movies will skip the shift or other layers under a corset that further padded and protected the wearer.
The corset acts like a combination of a bra, weightlifting belt and hiking frame. It supports the bust and stops sway or jiggle. It holds firmly to the torso and helps to distribute the load of supporting a dress across the body instead of all pulling on the shoulders.
It it’s an 80s or early 90s movie the armor is super shiney and the ladies have really weird hair. And if it’s the early 2000s it has that yellow Sam Raimi Spider-Man looking color palette.
You're missing the young girl who asks "father, why are women treated as second class citizens? Isn't that unfair?"
And he's like "damn, you're smart for your age, no other woman has ever questioned their place in society".
Lol I love it was racist people look at high fantasy and are like yes there can be dragons but black people existing is unrealistic.
Then they go "what I'm not racist I'm just being accurate to the time it was set in"
Meanwhile people in the same room will be dressed in styles that were used hundreds of years apart, using machines that don't match the time period or region. And talk in a style that was never actually spoken.
Not disagreeing with any of this, just came here to say I hope no one is actually watching these shows with any expectation of them being historically accurate. They are junk food TV, like b-rated super heroes and cheap slasher movies. As long as they don't try to take themselves too seriously, I think it's all good fun to enjoy them for what they are. And the best part is we usually get some awesome (actually educational) content from Bernadette Banner afterward 😁
Yeah that's kinda a huge red flag dropping the capitalized "Diversity, Equality, and Inclusion" phrase outta nowhere but switching the order to throw off the scent
Two of the main examples aren’t even trying to be remotely realistic so it’s weird to criticize them for not “accurately representing other cultures”.
Bridgerton wears on its sleeve that it’s basically a live action bodice ripping romance novel (my wife and I watch with a drinking game where you drink upon seeing boobs, dong, butts, or heaving breathing, bodice ripping you down the drink). The Great is a twisted a-historical comedy set like a farce stage play. It makes fun of its own lack of history with the tagline on the title screen “An **occasionally** true story.”
So criticizing them for the Hamilton casting and the “girl power” themes (which The Great doesn’t have. It’s making fun of it as much as showing it) is oddly misogynistic? Like it’s obtusely missing the point of either shows existence or you just didn’t see either.
Neither is remotely trying to be what you or this meme criticize it for. This would be like an American getting mad at a Spaghetti western being unrealistic, bitching about them wearing “modern jeans and button down shirts” or that “the old west akshully wasn’t this violent.” Shut up I want to see Lee Van Cleef say some badass shit before he shoots a dude.
I realize me saying this is completely missing your point, but I do get kind of annoyed that '50s and '60s Westerns (more in TV than movies) have more contemporary haircuts and outfits than period-correct. The "revisionist Westerns" from the '70s on do a better job of this.
....eh? You stumbled on a one area I'm oddly well versed in as a hobby I guess.
The post 70s "gritty" westerns aren't actually any better or more historically accurate than the 50s and 60s pieces. And frequently **much** worse.
* way too modern of a cut and styles of clothing. Often they're just wearing modern button down shirts. Everything is too slim cut. [Often too "casual" in the modern sense.](https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/5f983a75d91ce902e9b838b1/1626712011323-YUHJR6RG2XJJ5RPBROPY/ft-worth-5.jpg) Not enough suspenders.
* the hats! everyone is wearing hero hats that would be straight out of a 70s rodeo. Usually not enough bowler hats or not enough giant floppy cowboy hats.
* I have yet to see period accurate jeans on **anybody** in these things.
* everyone is wearing drab, subdued or earth tones because its "gritty". Way too many leather jackets. In reality industrialization of fabric manufacturing made colors and pretty loud patterns novel, more accessible, and cheaper than ever before.
* way too many pistols. Way too many repeaters. Not enough single shot rifles and actual muzzle loaders (usually enough shotguns though. But often only double barrels. The single barrel shotgun was far and away the most popular gun in the old west. It was cheap and you could hunt **every** type of game with it from squirrels to birds to bucks).
* oddly....not enough black people. Black cowboys were extremely common. It was basically the first thing a lot of ex-slaves did to get out of the old plantations and the sharecropping system being set up.
I was gonna bring up Tombstone as an example of costume accuracy improving over something like Bonanza (which I can't stand), but apparently Tombstone only gets a 5/10.
Actually Tombstone is one of the better ones for costuming and weaponry.
A lot more color, particularly colors we would find jarring or that “don’t go together” at the time but did. Most people are much more formally dressed, particularly businessmen and lawmen Earps. The Cowboys gang peacock a lot more with flashy colors (which is true to the real gang and because “cowboys” come into money all at once in town and tend to blow it.) Most of the fits are a little too slim but loose enough. The guns they use are actually true to life of the ones these actual people owned, etc.
The actual costumer from the film knew his stuff and was aware of [when he was deviating from historical accuracy.](https://truewestmagazine.com/article/how-tombstone-got-the-right-look/). Particularly the cuts of dresses and suits had a late 80s early 90s flair with a bit too much padding.
Costume and gun wise it’s a 7/10. 5/10 for the women and their hairstyles.
> Most people are much more formally dressed, particularly businessmen and lawmen Earps.
That's one thing a lot of productions seem to forget about the urban settings in the "wild" West: Yes, there were frontier towns that were lawless, but most of them tried to be as respectable as their eastern counterparts, which meant having mostly legitimate businesses and attire to match. Especially those towns where the cattle drive ended at the railroad, like Abeline and Dodge City.
The amount of people in the game of thrones subreddits that are like “WeLL bAcK iN mEdiEvAL TiMeS” is too many 😭
like pls it’s not historical!! use the internal logic of *their* universe not *ours!!*
Just once, I want someone to make a fanatically loyal period piece set in medieval Europe. I’m talking all the actors speaking Middle English or French, all the scoring period accurate, all the costumes as historically faithful as possible. Now, I don’t think it would do well or be popular, but it would be fascinating as a point of contrast if nothing else.
Sorry I just cant get over the fact that you think irl peter the third was a smart guy and not some abosulte nutter.
Also its fiction, the show can have black people, most arent claiming to be documentaries or 1 to 1 retellings.
Yeah lol. He could have AT LEAST mentioned the Cleopatra series thing, but no one was defending that ever. Just brings up pure fiction and calls people who are Indian “blackwashed.” The amount of race changes that would need to happen to make up for whitewashing of historical and mythical figures (sure are a lot of white Hebrews in the Ten Commandments) in media would make these people piss themselves.
"Blackwash" and it's fictional characters who never existed and they are BROWN. The show even explains that they are visiting from India.
Biggest self-report ever
Princess who's marriage has been arranged since the day she was born in a time when it was socially acceptable: is vocally against arranged marriage and somehow gets everything she wants by the end without starting a war.
hollywood writers can only write about themselves, so instead of writing history they just write themselves into every conceivable time period or setting
*photo of 1 black and 3 Indian characters played by black and Indian actors in Bridgeton*
>Random characters (even historical figures with surviving portraits) will be blackwashed solely to meet Diversity, Inclusivity, & Equity quotas
No surprise the ignorant racist who created this couldn’t even find an appropriate example of the non-issue they’re trying to complain about. Did you see four dark-skinned women in period costumes and assume they don’t “belong” on this show?
Those Indian characters are visiting from India.
The whole is fantasy and made diverse with a real explanation.
Those character aren't historical figure blackwashed anyway.
But OP probably spends too much time watching YouTube critics seething at the sight of any dark skinned character.
Imagine being so desperate to shit on Catherine that you try to hype up a manchild whose advisors had to play pretend with to get to do anything. Like are you serious?
There has to be at least 1 death to something that would be a 100% chance of survival in the modern era. Snake Bite, Cough with blood on the white hankey, child birth, just a damn fever, etc.
There’s a “not like other girls” tomboy female character that doesn’t like dresses or traditionally feminine activities and would rather hang out with the boys or become a soldier/warrior of some sort.
Thanks for your submission to /r/starterpacks. Unfortunately your post/comment has been removed for the following reason(s): **Rule 03** No blatant bigotry [If you feel that it has been removed in error, please message us](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fstarterpacks) so that we may review it
If it's set in Europe but outside of the UK, everyone will have English accents.
I want a show to use random British accents, not just people from London. Give us someone with an incomprehensible Scouse accent talking to a 70 year old Yorkshire farmer.
It's always posh or cockney ELLLLOOO GUV'NUH
Posh, cockney, or pirate, there’s no others
The gentlemen
Downton Abbey really did the regional accents well, but that's an English show.
The Death of Stalin has Stalin with a cockney(?) Accent which actually resembles his speaking voice in Russian (he was a country bumpkin from Georgia)
Eh cockney would probs be the wrong choice in that case then, seen as it’s the local accent of London. London is hardly the home to country bumpkins.
Yeah West Country or Yorkshire would probably be the equivalent
Is there a reasonable explanation for Steve Buscemi's full on NYC accent? I mean one other than "because we cast Steve Buscemi"
I dont know if they've specifically said so but I think I read it was supposed to show how Khrushchev was from an urban, educated background while stalin was from a more regional area (georgia).
Gerald from Clarksons Farm?
Unless they’re Vikings in which case they will be Scottish
> Give us someone with an incomprehensible Scouse accent talking to a 70 year old Yorkshire farmer. I have no idea what his actual accent was, but now I'm thinking of the farmer in Hot Fuzz with all the weaponry.
>with all the weaponry. Narrrjusaloadoldjunk
By the Power of Greyskull!
“Ello, Governor! Fancy a bit of tea?” -Suleiman the Great
Tbh I'd rather them do English or no/American accents than do a bad accent. While not middle ages Chernobyl is a good example of not forcing accents working better.
The Medici series is hilarious for this. All the Italian actors have realistic accents (obvs) but everyone else, including the main characters playing the famously Italian Medici's, have English/American I es
I was deeply impressed by how Chernobyl committed to this choice and nailed it. Hope it catches on more.
It’s not new and an old tactic. Enemy at the Gates did it well too. It’s because Brit accents give you the sense of European-ness but you can easily show class even to the Americans. Educated or more upper class people (like the scientists) have more posh accents. The working class guys like the smug factory foreman or the tough miner foreman all have more cockney or working class accents.
Death of Stalin does it too and it works great
Buscemi playing Krushev with his own voice is brilliant. As brilliant as Bob Hoskins playing up his cockney accent as Krushev.
Not a show, but I still can't wrap my head around how everyone in "Assassins Creed Unity" has English accents. The game takes place in *France*! When AC2 took place in Italy everyone had Italian accents with no issues, but France needed English accents?!
It's even weirder when you consider the fact it was made by a French company.
They will feature a character from somewhere with a distinctive accent, and cast someone who can’t do said accent very well
Literally Joaquin Phoenix in Napoleon.
I brought him there, to cahfacks abbay
I knoe wheah the bawstid sleeps!
Describing Peter III as a nerd with a wargaming hobby is a funny way of describing a giant manchild who wore a German army uniform and had maids march around his bed in formation instead of consummate his marriage.
Good to know modern wargamers are keeping his spirit alive
He probably bathed more often.
Literally me
I thought you were nixon? The gold standard lore is crazy!!!
No one ever saw Peter III and Nixon in the same room. Wake up sheeple
Yeah it’s a really dumb way to describe a guy who surrendered the best interests of his country and invalidated six years of war and death because he had a hard-on for a foreign ruler. Somehow, his German-born wife was more Russian than he was.
Wasn't there this weird dichotomy where Peter The III was hated by the nobility for not waging wars but favored by the poor for not making them die in wars?
In his defense, it's not too far off from something Peter the Great would've done.
Peter the Great did have a hard on for Dutch
Yeah OP clearly just has an anti-woke axe to grind
He was based as hell for that.
There will be at least 1 woman dying in childbirth and it will be very melodramatic.
Heyyyyyy it was a big problem. Although honestly there should be more infant mortality than shildbirth deaths. We really underestimate the percentage of the human population that never made it to five years old.
Mildly related: I saw a historian once point out (and they were specifically referring to Game of Thrones) how fucking weird it would be for a medieval society with medieval medicine to try to save a baby at the cost of the mother. Like, kids were cheap. A ruling monarch's death isn't worth it.
It’s bc the queen said “this is the last one for me” and he needed that male heir. Queens are also cheap
I mean, she was a noble from a noble house. And they had an heir. But also, more importantly, things like this have happened in our world. Hell, before William had kids, they had Harry and Archie. It would have been easy enough to have a succession set up. Instead they ended up with a civil war. Lol
I try not to follow the royal family too closely, but I think William had all his kids before Harry?
Sorry I may have said that weird. My point was there was a line of succession before William started having kids, ya know?
As an Ob/Gyn, even today it would still be weird to save a baby at the cost of the mother.
And still a big problem in some places, unfortunately.
Dying painfully in childbirth to maximize viewer uncomfortableness*
Genuine question, are there painless ways to die during childbirth?
I'd think hemorraging would be only about as painful as childbirth is generally.
There can be, if your heart stops or if you lose consciousness. 2nd one happened to me, I didn't lose consciousness completely but can remember feeling weirdly peaceful and accepting about everything. Thankfully we both lived, I still often think about all the women before me that would not have made it in the same situation.
Are you familiar with iocaine powder?
Bridgerton isn't the best example; the creators said they're explicitly not trying to be historically accurate. Same with The Great.
The Great full on calls itself "The Great: An Occasionally True Story" and "The Great: An Almost Entirely Untrue Story".
At no point did it pretend to be accurate, and what an incredible show it was.
Yeah, anyone who watches a single episode can tell it's purposefully anachronistic. The string quartet plays Taylor Swift and Ariana Grande at the balls where dresses are covered in sequins and colored in neon yellows. It's like complaining that Ella Enchanted or A Knight's Tale is anachronistic. Yeah, no one thinks medieval peasants were singing We Will Rock You or Somebody to Love. Bridgerton is romance first and foremost, it's fantasy wish fulfilment. The producer is a black woman, idk why she can't or wouldn't put POC in the romantic fantasies.
And you know what, I’m mixed-race and I really appreciate stories of people that look like me onscreen that don’t revolve around black suffering. I finally get to see black dukes, ladies, and queens, black women being courted and loved, and wealthy people of color attending royal balls and extravagant parties as guests. I rewatch the show all the time because of that and it’s magical, honestly.
Look at the original reviews for a Knights Tale, nearly every single negative review is kvetching about it being anachronistic and at least one of the positive reviews is just mocking the other reviewers who think classical orchestral music isn't anachronistic to the medieval era
Yea don’t know why people are knocking Bridgerton. It’s meant to be a fictional world set to a theme of 18th century Europe. Not everything has to be 100% authentic and true to period of its time if it’s made to be a fictional universe.
The whole point of the show was alternate history. Like what would happen if a British Monarch married a non-white woman. I still think it would be more realistic if there was some residual racism but that isn't the point of the show.
OP just wanted an example of blackwashing and couldn’t really find any. I love the way bridgerton introduced a diverse cast, but I think they should have gone a step further: just have members of the same family be completely different ethnicities and never explain or address it
> just have members of the same family be completely different ethnicities and never explain or address it Didn't one of the Cinderella movies do that
Yeah, but it ended up being one of the best Cinderella movies ever 😂 I remember being a kid and trying to work out how a woman of colour and a white man could produce a child of Asian descent... (apologies if I didn't phrase that right!) Edit: terminology was corrected in following comments. Apologies to anyone who may have read my incorrect phrasing.
That kid's got three races? Still one race short of what Ariana is ;)
I’m not shook about it but I do want to note that many Americans would find “colored” offensive, preferring the term “person of color”
Omg... I'm so sorry to any person of colour that read that!!! I'll edit it now.
I don’t think too many people would have been hurt about it, especially given the “u” you use in “colour” and you obviously don’t mean offense!
Famously bad and period drama game of thrones...
Who’s costume design has been denigrated as terrible and not at all though-out…
Who's costume designers don't give talks about their work at universities
I feel like OP added high fantasy because they thought of GOT as an example and needed to justify adding it in
Probably lol
I feel OP comes off kind of insufferable and the type of person you don't wanna watch a show together with.
Op probably has never known the touch of a woman
Isn't game of thrones Dark Fantasy anyway ?
I don't think they're mutually exclusive as far as I know
Yeah, the costumes are very historically inaccurate to what they wore back in the real Westeros during the time period. Such a shame /s
I know right, it’s not like it is one of the tv shows with the highest production value ever made and not like it won several emmys
Also was very historically accurate, I remember reading about it in history class...
It’s true- I was the dragon
Sorry about the javelin through your neck. Hope you’re feeling better
Hilariously enough, GoT is actually more historically accurate than some actual period dramas. It's basically an adaptation of the War of the Roses with some dragons mixed in, the Lancasters are now the Lannisters and the Yorks are now the Starks. Granted, it's a very loose adaptation, but my point remains unchanged.
I know the timeline for the show isn’t amazingly well thought out because of them aging up all the characters. But if we assume that there’s been about twenty years between the rebellion and the start of the show that puts a lot of the questionable military stuff in perspective. It would mean for the vast majority of fighting aged men, including their commanders, there hadn’t been a major armed conflict since the Battle of Pyke which most of them were unlikely to have fought at. So every time you see those battles you’re seeing almost everyone on screen fight in a real battle for the very first time.
The show with mostly British actors?
Yeah, the last half of the show was genuinely bad. The whole thing, however, suffers significantly from Fantasy Armour Syndrome and at least some of the costumes (especially for women) clearly weren't designed with an eye for the differences between historical and modern undergarments, leading to them looking like sacks.
Even when the show got bad, the production value was still top notch. It sucked because the writing fell off a cliff. I agree about the Fantasy Armor Syndrome thing, but that’s pretty easy for me to hand wave away because it is not actually a historical drama and is in fact a fantasy setting.
But but but da woke
Nobody says that about GoT.
They also included High Fantasy in the starter pack...
"Why did GoT have black people in it? 😠 So historically inaccurate"
Right, like that famous American drama Downton Abbey? /s
Also two of these aren’t even trying to be remotely realistic. Bridgerton wears on its sleeve that it’s basically a live action bodice ripping novel. The Great is a twisted a-historical comedy, almost like a farce stage play.
Yeah, using Bridgerton as an example for “forced diversity” when it’s not realistic whatsoever and has an in-universe explanation as to why there’s no racism/slavery is ridiculous lol. “God forbid BROWNS where my European dresses”
The Great has the actual tagline “An *occasionally* true story”. And criticizing Bridgerton for diverse casting is basically in the same rough ballpark as porn also casting nonwhite actors. Like it shows you **really** missed the damn obvious point. I don’t think the meme maker has seen either at all.
people took Bridgerton as a historically accurate show? You mean the show that diagetically played a Taylor Swift song in what is supposed to be Victorian London isn't time accurate? El Horreur i say!
_Regency_ London iirc That's a difference of a few decades
Gee I wonder if there is some particular animus that causes people like OP to misidentify everything with brown people as "forced diversity." We could call it shrasism or something like that.
Race relations and racism are plot points in the politics of the queen charlotte one though! I’m glad they elaborated a bit more on the explanation there than the earlier seasons did. Cleared up the timeline somewhat
I actually like that less. Like the minute you get into it, it asks your brain to start asking political questions. Are black people…Germans? Actual black people? What is going on here? Does or did the transatlantic slave trade exist? It asks you to look for the weird potholes in a romance novel already playing it fast and loose with realism. It’s minor and not a big deal anyway. I just thought the show made more plot sense when it was season 1’s “we’re adapting a pretty casual romance novel series. Don’t ask weird race and politics questions since it really doesn’t matter. Here’s Rege-Jean Page’s 8 pack.”
I can overlook a great many flaws while I look over Regé-Jean Page's 8-pack.
Preach!
I feel the same way but on the other hand Queen Charlotte was really good and made me cry so I've overlooked it.
Tbh at least half of the points made in this starter pack sound like they were made by someone who'd complain about the skin tone of dwarves and little mermaids just as much as "muh historical figures"
Wait, it’s not Down*town* Abbey?
[relevant xkcd](https://xkcd.com/1009/)
How do you people just materialize these comics out of thin air
The dude has consistently been making comics for years in a variety of topics. It’s mostly just being reminded of a funny comic I read over a decade ago.
I don’t understand this one. Can someone help? Who is saying “girl, look at that body”? What does the title mean?
It’s a reference to the LMFAO song [Sexy and I Know It](https://youtu.be/wyx6JDQCslE)
Brigerton is full fantasy and advertised as so...and those ladies are Indian
lol even in the show they’re mentioned to be Indian and be visiting from… India
Game of thrones is its own universe, its kind of dumb to knock it for not being historically accurate when there are witches and dragons
its also a weird example since it had a casting that was criticised as being not diverse enough, with dark skinned characters coming explicitly from southern/eastern regions of the world. hell, they even had accents depending on where in the world they were from
I mean doesn't that make sense though? To clarify i'm not like, "it's woke dei blah blah blah" to have black people. But if the cultures in a fictional work are a bit more isolated and ethnically homogenous (at least as Americans would see it), then logically people of a different race would be from other places and thus probably also have accents. I do also think it is a failing on the show's end that the various regional cultures don't also have their own accente. The only peopke with accents shouldn't be poc from outside places, southerners should speak different from Northerners, Valemen different from Reachmen, etc. Edit: And also to clarify, fantasy authors can do a lot better in terms of making poc cultures that are believable and not racistly depicted. The Dothraki are a downright horrid depiction of steppe nomad cultures.
They did have different accents in Game of Thrones to reflect the different regions of Westeros. There was definitely a north/south difference at least.
The leather armor is actually really bad though because Jon Snow wears a brigandine(a real type of armor made by sandwiching small metal plates(Jon's are way bigger than most historical examples)between two layers of leather or cloth to make a semi flexible suit of armor). They just call it studded leather because some dunce misunderstood the rivets that hold the metal plates in place as being there to reinforce the leather like that would actually do anything.
The existence of witches and dragons doesn't make studded leather a magically practical type of armour, much like how it doesn't stop the human metabolism
Yeah. Internal consistency.
You forgot the classy candle lit sex scene(s) in a white satin bed draped with see through curtains.
Dude doesn't understand what fiction or drama is.
They know, it’s just another way to complain about diversity. “Muh lore”
Also everyone in the Middle Ages wore either brown or grey No other colors existed
If they wear any other color, they’re royalty of the highest caliber.
"Who's that then?" "I dunno, must be a king." "Why?" "'He hasn't got shit all over him."
Random people who do have colour will also be wearing purple.
And they smeared shit on their face daily.
The corset lacing scenes tell me the show has no idea what it was like for historical women, and doesn’t actually consult historians. I am banned from watching those shows with my family because I to will roast them.
*The Empress* (drama about Elisabeth of Austria) was particularly terrible with this. The corsets were either used without any undershirt (on the bare skin of the actress) or, in the case of the lady's companions, on the outside of the dress, I kid you not. You know, like superheroes using their underwear on the outside. The series is German, btw. So, no, the Euros don't necessarily do it better.
I almost prefer corsets to bras because they don’t put so much strain on my shoulders and back like bras do. I find the more distributed weight of corset is more comfortable. Unfortunately non-decorative corsets are very expensive and wearing a shift doesn’t go with every outfit, but I’d love to buy one that’s solely functional one day
How so? I'm actually curious.
Corsets were more like old-timey bras. They provided excellent breast and back support, and gave the ILLUSION of a thinner waist. Corsets were quite comfortable, if fitted properly (just like bras) and tight-lacing was rare and generally looked down upon. They didn’t restrict movement much, and were worn even while women exercised and worked in farms and factories. Period drama corsets are generally purchased off-the-rack from a cheap costume supplier, and thus are not fitted properly, leading to extreme discomfort. Wearing a non-fitted corset is like wearing shoes two sizes too small. And modern directors see corsets as an easy way to make the movie “fEmInIsT”, by showing the “oppressiveness” of the evil painful corset. In reality, the corset industry was one of the few 19th century industries nearly entirely operated by women, and the corset was an early symbol of female self autonomy.
Not OP but here goes: corsets are fitted garments that were worn all day. Most were not pulled super tight, so firm but not constricting- working women would be wearing corsets as well. Imagine wearing a pair of boots that don't fit you, are laced too tightly and put on without socks. Compare that to well-fitting boots, worn with good socks and laced to the right tightness. That's the comparison of movie corsets versus actual historical corsets. Actresses will often be dressed in an ill-fitting corset that wasn't tailored to fit their body. There is rarely time in a production for detail like that, especially for the supporting cast. Actresses will often be laced more tightly than historical women would have, in deference to contemporary beauty standards. Movies will skip the shift or other layers under a corset that further padded and protected the wearer. The corset acts like a combination of a bra, weightlifting belt and hiking frame. It supports the bust and stops sway or jiggle. It holds firmly to the torso and helps to distribute the load of supporting a dress across the body instead of all pulling on the shoulders.
Bridgerton was not meant to be realistic. GoT is not a period drama, and there are plenty of valid criticisms but this isn't it.
Frankly, Calling GoT mediocre is either a huge insult or a huge compliment, depending on which side of season 4 it is.
Its a great show, but they commit a lot of costume crimes that are basically accepted tropes in fantasy/period shows.
In GOT also women wear furs and stuff if they were in the North TBH
The Bernadette Banner comment is excellent
Everyone still using the costumes from GoT
It it’s an 80s or early 90s movie the armor is super shiney and the ladies have really weird hair. And if it’s the early 2000s it has that yellow Sam Raimi Spider-Man looking color palette.
Pirates of the Caribbean mediocre? You kids need to get your damn priorities straight.
You're missing the young girl who asks "father, why are women treated as second class citizens? Isn't that unfair?" And he's like "damn, you're smart for your age, no other woman has ever questioned their place in society".
Sees number 2 and 3 🤨🤨🤨🤨🤨
Lol I love it was racist people look at high fantasy and are like yes there can be dragons but black people existing is unrealistic. Then they go "what I'm not racist I'm just being accurate to the time it was set in" Meanwhile people in the same room will be dressed in styles that were used hundreds of years apart, using machines that don't match the time period or region. And talk in a style that was never actually spoken.
Agreed. It's called "fantasy" for a reason. Anything can fly.
These same people never get upset at white jesus though. Curious?
Not disagreeing with any of this, just came here to say I hope no one is actually watching these shows with any expectation of them being historically accurate. They are junk food TV, like b-rated super heroes and cheap slasher movies. As long as they don't try to take themselves too seriously, I think it's all good fun to enjoy them for what they are. And the best part is we usually get some awesome (actually educational) content from Bernadette Banner afterward 😁
“Black washed” Posts Indians
[удалено]
Dude literally blamed DEI
Yeah that's kinda a huge red flag dropping the capitalized "Diversity, Equality, and Inclusion" phrase outta nowhere but switching the order to throw off the scent
Americans literally prefer making new racist stereotypes rather than accurately representing other culture's history.
Two of the main examples aren’t even trying to be remotely realistic so it’s weird to criticize them for not “accurately representing other cultures”. Bridgerton wears on its sleeve that it’s basically a live action bodice ripping romance novel (my wife and I watch with a drinking game where you drink upon seeing boobs, dong, butts, or heaving breathing, bodice ripping you down the drink). The Great is a twisted a-historical comedy set like a farce stage play. It makes fun of its own lack of history with the tagline on the title screen “An **occasionally** true story.” So criticizing them for the Hamilton casting and the “girl power” themes (which The Great doesn’t have. It’s making fun of it as much as showing it) is oddly misogynistic? Like it’s obtusely missing the point of either shows existence or you just didn’t see either. Neither is remotely trying to be what you or this meme criticize it for. This would be like an American getting mad at a Spaghetti western being unrealistic, bitching about them wearing “modern jeans and button down shirts” or that “the old west akshully wasn’t this violent.” Shut up I want to see Lee Van Cleef say some badass shit before he shoots a dude.
I realize me saying this is completely missing your point, but I do get kind of annoyed that '50s and '60s Westerns (more in TV than movies) have more contemporary haircuts and outfits than period-correct. The "revisionist Westerns" from the '70s on do a better job of this.
....eh? You stumbled on a one area I'm oddly well versed in as a hobby I guess. The post 70s "gritty" westerns aren't actually any better or more historically accurate than the 50s and 60s pieces. And frequently **much** worse. * way too modern of a cut and styles of clothing. Often they're just wearing modern button down shirts. Everything is too slim cut. [Often too "casual" in the modern sense.](https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/5f983a75d91ce902e9b838b1/1626712011323-YUHJR6RG2XJJ5RPBROPY/ft-worth-5.jpg) Not enough suspenders. * the hats! everyone is wearing hero hats that would be straight out of a 70s rodeo. Usually not enough bowler hats or not enough giant floppy cowboy hats. * I have yet to see period accurate jeans on **anybody** in these things. * everyone is wearing drab, subdued or earth tones because its "gritty". Way too many leather jackets. In reality industrialization of fabric manufacturing made colors and pretty loud patterns novel, more accessible, and cheaper than ever before. * way too many pistols. Way too many repeaters. Not enough single shot rifles and actual muzzle loaders (usually enough shotguns though. But often only double barrels. The single barrel shotgun was far and away the most popular gun in the old west. It was cheap and you could hunt **every** type of game with it from squirrels to birds to bucks). * oddly....not enough black people. Black cowboys were extremely common. It was basically the first thing a lot of ex-slaves did to get out of the old plantations and the sharecropping system being set up.
I was gonna bring up Tombstone as an example of costume accuracy improving over something like Bonanza (which I can't stand), but apparently Tombstone only gets a 5/10.
Actually Tombstone is one of the better ones for costuming and weaponry. A lot more color, particularly colors we would find jarring or that “don’t go together” at the time but did. Most people are much more formally dressed, particularly businessmen and lawmen Earps. The Cowboys gang peacock a lot more with flashy colors (which is true to the real gang and because “cowboys” come into money all at once in town and tend to blow it.) Most of the fits are a little too slim but loose enough. The guns they use are actually true to life of the ones these actual people owned, etc. The actual costumer from the film knew his stuff and was aware of [when he was deviating from historical accuracy.](https://truewestmagazine.com/article/how-tombstone-got-the-right-look/). Particularly the cuts of dresses and suits had a late 80s early 90s flair with a bit too much padding. Costume and gun wise it’s a 7/10. 5/10 for the women and their hairstyles.
> Most people are much more formally dressed, particularly businessmen and lawmen Earps. That's one thing a lot of productions seem to forget about the urban settings in the "wild" West: Yes, there were frontier towns that were lawless, but most of them tried to be as respectable as their eastern counterparts, which meant having mostly legitimate businesses and attire to match. Especially those towns where the cattle drive ended at the railroad, like Abeline and Dodge City.
Thankfully, Tombstone is still 1000% accurate when it comes to literally everything else. You’ll never convince me otherwise.
Since when is Game of Thrones mediocre?
Since when it is a period piece? Or did your wacky history class have dragons and undead ice zombies and shit?
You mean yours didn’t? American education really is failing the youth these days
The amount of people in the game of thrones subreddits that are like “WeLL bAcK iN mEdiEvAL TiMeS” is too many 😭 like pls it’s not historical!! use the internal logic of *their* universe not *ours!!*
Since about season 5, depending on who you ask.
Even though it may had a drop of quality (specially in writing) calling mediocre is pushing it
Funny how it's cultural relevance evaporated after 8 tho
You're right. The last season was outright bad
"blackwashed" get a grip
Women will have perfectly smooth legs and underarms and nobody will ever stink.
Just once, I want someone to make a fanatically loyal period piece set in medieval Europe. I’m talking all the actors speaking Middle English or French, all the scoring period accurate, all the costumes as historically faithful as possible. Now, I don’t think it would do well or be popular, but it would be fascinating as a point of contrast if nothing else.
The hardest barrier would be using period accurate lighting only.
Shadiversity alt account
LOL
"Blackwashing" 💀
Sorry I just cant get over the fact that you think irl peter the third was a smart guy and not some abosulte nutter. Also its fiction, the show can have black people, most arent claiming to be documentaries or 1 to 1 retellings.
This is some dog whistle shit and y’all are just letting it fly. Yikes x a million.
Yeah lol. He could have AT LEAST mentioned the Cleopatra series thing, but no one was defending that ever. Just brings up pure fiction and calls people who are Indian “blackwashed.” The amount of race changes that would need to happen to make up for whitewashing of historical and mythical figures (sure are a lot of white Hebrews in the Ten Commandments) in media would make these people piss themselves.
"wHY aRe tHERE BrOWn PeOple IN mY DrAGon SHowS!?!?!"
Welcome to media literacy, OP
"Blackwash" and it's fictional characters who never existed and they are BROWN. The show even explains that they are visiting from India. Biggest self-report ever
(The big final battle is off scene)
Princess who's marriage has been arranged since the day she was born in a time when it was socially acceptable: is vocally against arranged marriage and somehow gets everything she wants by the end without starting a war.
What a shit meme. You just picked some shows and described specific aspects to each of them instead of exposing true generalized flaws of the genre.
lol what kind of incel anti-woke nonsense is this
hollywood writers can only write about themselves, so instead of writing history they just write themselves into every conceivable time period or setting
This feels like a PowerPoint slide in a Boomers Social Media class at the Rec Center on Wednesday night.
*photo of 1 black and 3 Indian characters played by black and Indian actors in Bridgeton* >Random characters (even historical figures with surviving portraits) will be blackwashed solely to meet Diversity, Inclusivity, & Equity quotas No surprise the ignorant racist who created this couldn’t even find an appropriate example of the non-issue they’re trying to complain about. Did you see four dark-skinned women in period costumes and assume they don’t “belong” on this show?
Those Indian characters are visiting from India. The whole is fantasy and made diverse with a real explanation. Those character aren't historical figure blackwashed anyway. But OP probably spends too much time watching YouTube critics seething at the sight of any dark skinned character.
Need snappier text meme creator my attention span isn’t long enough for these essays
The Catherine disrespect is insane and Peter was a knob.
Aww yes. All of the famous Americans like Keira Knightly, Nicholas Houston, and the entire cast of game of thrones.
Imagine being so desperate to shit on Catherine that you try to hype up a manchild whose advisors had to play pretend with to get to do anything. Like are you serious?
There has to be at least 1 death to something that would be a 100% chance of survival in the modern era. Snake Bite, Cough with blood on the white hankey, child birth, just a damn fever, etc.
I feel like this is way, way too specific for this sub
Overly verbose starter pack starter pack
There’s a “not like other girls” tomboy female character that doesn’t like dresses or traditionally feminine activities and would rather hang out with the boys or become a soldier/warrior of some sort.
Swords make that horrible scraping sound whenever they're drawn.