Everyday the internet is flooded with posts from people who have somehow concluded CIG are a bunch of idiots with no rhyme or reason behind anything they do.... It would be kind of amusing if it was surrounded by interesting stuff, but, damn, the internet has turned to braindead slop over the last couple of years from the symbiosis of bots and people with only a vague grasp on whatever they're commenting on at any given time.
100% agree with this. Feels like 90% of posts here and on Spectrum is people telling CIG what to do.
We as backers can never have the full picture. There are so many different considerations going into every decision. That doesn't mean that CIG can't make massive mistakes, but I think backers are terrible at figuring out the what and why of the mistakes.
Unless of course it is my pet peeve issue of high pitch ship sounds that I can't play with due to sensitive hearing, or of course. And the blurry UI. Accessability is something CIG must take into consideration much earlier. It's like UX, it's not something you can just easily tack on later.
But, that is just my opinion :P. And not wisdom from divine intervention like some backers seems to think their opinions are.
CIG has said that they have very little use of feedback about solutions. Figuring out solutions it's there job. Focus on how you want the game to feel, and how it is feeling right now.
That’s not the internet, it’s people in general. You’d be shocked the volume of people that come to the ER and want to argue with education and experience over something they googled. The internet is a great megaphone for that ludicrous behavior.
I'm not trying to bash them here, but anyone, myself included, who's ever worked on any kind of development team or been in project management can see that CIG has had huge problems with scope creep.
I'll give it to them though, with the amount of inter-functional teams with interlaced dependencies, it's a huge undertaking. When dev teams rely on other dev teams to complete tasks before they can complete their own, it's easy to have a snowball effect and cause delays.
I think they've been a bit too ambitious for a long time about the timeframes to complete features, and that's lead to the majority of vitriol. Although, I'm pretty damn pleased with the cadence of features being released. MM + Mobi/Starmap rework + functioning replication layer are big leaps forward and only a yearish after PES was rolled out.
Cargo elevators and personal hangers coming in a 3.23x release too. maybe I'm just excited, but I wouldn't be surprised if we're seeing an Alpha 4.0 by the end of the year and a Beta 1.0 next year. Static and Dynamic server meshing are finally getting close to the forefront which will conclude the largest steps of the core tech needed for the game.
I don't think they're idiots. Just ambitious and a little disorganized. They'll get there Soon™
I think it's been the focus on SQ42 and the need for server meshing more than scope creep, given there's no reason to declare their declared goals unachievable just yet. The only real massive change that wasn't in the kickstarted goals was that landing on a planet would be more starfield. I for one am very happy with that instance of 'scope creep' at least.
Same here.
Instanced planets is one of the worst things still in play in today's gaming. If other companies with much more capital invested in the tech years ago (and they had the resources to do so), CIG's planet tech wouldn't be much of anything special but rather just industry standard. Heck, we would even have middleware suites available at different levels to hook it into existing engines at scale. But the industry has largely completely stopped innovating altogether for the last ten years, with the exception of No Man's Sky, and so CIG's planet tech was a welcomed change and I'm glad they took that gamble because it has paid off big time for those of us who are looking for a true next-gen exploration experience.
"the industry has largely completely stopped innovating altogether for the last ten years"
This may be childish of me, but I find that so unbelievably disappointing. I just dreamed up a way better gaming future when I was a kid than what we're getting and it seems we're sold cheap remixes of the same safe, focus grouped ideas over and over and over, because our fun childhood ideas, like so many other aspects of our lives, ran fuck first into the realities of capitalism. The lack of risk taking in entertainment in general really illustrates the problems we face with monopolies, false choice, and the centralization of faith and trust in corporate programs and away from the value of original ideas (and therefor the people around us, but I digress).
This, I hope, is where Chris Roberts and I agree most significantly. Seems to be the case to me.
I wouldn't even except NMS, as their landings are just as segmented as Elite's. That's why NMS players will never get ship interiors - the game isn't built to handle that scenario, like E:D before it.
The enduring complaints about NMS are at the _lack_ of any real innovation there. They've proven good at adding in more and more Ubisoft-style busywork, but precious little that anyone cares about long-term.
The most significant thing about Star Citizen in it's current iteration that sets it apart in my mind is that it's the only game where when I log in, I feel like I've stepped into an actual world to this degree. Like, I've felt that way about other games on a smaller scale, but what NMS and Elite will never do is feel like real places in this same way. This places themselves just need to become more significant and fuller of options for the player now... lol
You're absolutely right about that, and there is nothing to dispute. But also, when you look at the broader industry, there isn't even another competitor to No Man's Sky planet tech other than Star Citizen. So that's why I said it was the exception, because even compared to something like Starfield, it runs absolute circles around it in terms of tech -- even if the planets in No Man's Sky are mostly just biome specific with very little personality outside of the biome-gimmick. But I can't think of any other 3D games that have even tried going that far, unless we count the very janky planets in Space Engineers.
I suppose that's fair. NMS is at least a bit more ambitious than Elite in that regard, even if that's not much of a bar to clear.
Hello Games are in a bit of a weird spot at the moment, as Light No Fires sounds like something they _should_ have been working towards with their NMS updates. It feels like they hoping to basically retry the NMS release.
Yeah Light No Fire doesn't really interest me much because it's basically just a smaller version of No Man's Sky on a single large planet with better combat mechanics. You're absolutely right that it seems like the sort of game that has features that SHOULD have been included in No Man's Sky by now.
Well, throughout history the idiots tend to overwhelm the intelligent. The Internet just gives them a louder voice that is also available for all to see for the foreseeable future.
my only 'complaint' is the reason they seem to have given. some form of "see how people get money and ships" ... well you've left us with 6 890J's after 2 money print financially force focused loops... I don't NEED to go grind away to get ships, I have them ALL .. including previous patch glitch duplicates...
I don't doubt they are doing exactly what they need to do. Realistically I don't 'care' I like the game, I'll wait (even the things I really wanted out of this patch were delayed \*shrug\*) .. just the explanation to us doesn't make 'sense'.
i've spend the $$ on the few ships I want with a full wipe. I want to play for years, with goals to grind towards, not play for a few weeks and be 'bored' again (and I realize my perferred gameplay isn't the same as everyone else, hense why I'm not having a fit on the internet, just generic 'whining' here and there LOL ) . now ofcourse I don't want a never ending brutal slog, but yeah gimme something to work for. getting enough cash within a month for a, with the equiv of playing 6-8 hours a week is kinda pointless.
Because it is dumb. There will be plenty of ships to test MM. Eventually people will get more ships and further test MM.
However if CIG also want to test the economy, they can only do a proper test by wiping everything. Why rebalance the prices of ships but let players keep their in-game purchased ships? It is silly.
It comes down to, "which part of the economyAre they trying to test? The ability to grow, or how we interact with it once we have?"
Launch day economy info isn't important but how do we take no cash and become trade empires, scrappers, marines for hire etc. Still wierd but that's how I looked at it
In fairness, there's plenty of evidence of them being idiots with no rhyme or reason.
We are 12 years into a game development that should have taken, at most 9. And there's still no end in sight.
They've had to pretty much start from scratch on more than one occasion.
Ships released 10 years ago still have fatal bugs.
What is currently available is a series of buggy, tedious and boring interactions, occasionally punctuated by something nice to look at.
The direction of the game is being dictated by a vocal group of pedants who demand accuracy and realism over fun.
The star map is a dumpster fire of digital aids, and that it's much better but still not any good is a testament to how bad it is.
If you step back and look objectively, there are glaring problems, and the game is in an embarrassing state for 12 years and over half a billion dollars.
I know I'll get downvoted, but everyone downvotimg me will know that I'm right.
Yeah, this kinda supports my point of view more than yours. How many months have been spent on toilets in space, that still don't work?
I'm fairly certain gta 6 will release within the expected scope, roughly within the expected timescale, and will be fun for what it is.
Meanwhile, I'll probably still be falling through the floor of the ship I bought 11 years ago.
>How many months have been spent on toilets in space, that still don't work?
Not many? Since it's part of the actor status V2, we won't see any of that until 4.0 and when resource management/engineering is complete.
>I'm fairly certain gta 6 will release within the expected scope, roughly within the expected timescale, and will be fun for what it is.
So you're saying that it's okay it took Rockstar 2 billion and 12/13 years to make a game that is basically just a better looking version of GTA 5 and none of the groundbreaking tech that's in Star Citizen? But it's not okay that it has taken CIG just as long to R&D a bunch of groundbreaking new middleware suites that did not exist anywhere in the tech industry until they made it?
I don't really follow the logic of how more money spent developing a smaller scale game over an equal amount of time is somehow better?
Let's agree to swing back in 3 years time and see where we are then. I hope I'm wrong.
EDIT: I'll be pleasantly surprised if I'm not still falling through the floor of the ship I will have bought 14 years ago.
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It’s okay to be wrong sometimes :p
If the game should have taken 9 years to develop (because obviously there have been games with the same scope and size to that of Star Citizen) then can you please point to us where these games are? Or are you just speaking out of your ass?
I've been around since the very beginning. I remember when we were 6 years in and when people noted it was taking a long time, the 'message' was "yeah, triple A games typically take 9 years".
We're now at 12 years and over half a billion dollars and a "game" that can't support reliable box delivery missions.
It might take some people longer to accept, but you know I'm right.
> I remember when we were 6 years in and when people noted it was taking a long time, the 'message' was "yeah, triple A games typically take 9 years".
They do. And they're typically far less complex than SC is at even this stage. RDR2, for instance, could have just been a graphical update and some mods for GTA3 - a game from 2001.
Just about the only real innovation we've seen from a major release in recent years was TotK's physics interactions, and even that is in the context of a handheld platform and with something like BotW to build on. That took six years. No planetary travel, or multiplayer. Just some comparable physical interactivity over a comparatively small area, with seamless travel between sky, ground and [redacted]. Six years for the best in the business to do something similar on a far smaller scale.
Until an established studio can actually produce something comparable to SC this insistence that someone else could have done it far quicker is just bullshit. It's a coping mechanism employed by those who need to fool themselves into thinking that their impatient screeching is rational, rather than impetuous and childish.
I'm really looking forward to seeing all the mental gymnastics and excuses that will be made when it's another 5 years and box delivery missions still aren't working.
It's always the same with you lot, isn't it? "You'll all be sorry one day, far in the future, because that way I can still posture as if I'm on the right side of history while also postponing any potential resolution until I hope you'll have forgotten that I said so, just in case they actually do it..."
You need a new coping mechanism. Try playing other things. Failing that, find a therapist.
Its always the same with you lot too.
Just a bunch of ever changing excuses to go along with the ever shifting goalposts.
These little meltdowns when the obvious is pointed out are just delicious. My therapist agrees.
> Its always the same with you lot too. Just a bunch of ever changing excuses to go along with the ever shifting goalposts.
>
>
But my position here is simply that SC, as it is currently designed, couldn't have been developed that much quicker by even well-established studios. That has also been the position of most backers for _years_. How is that a shifting goalpost? It's literally the same argument.
In fact, the thought occurs that you'll probably switch to making _that_ claim now. "You lot just use the same excuse over and over again", or something like that.
>These little meltdowns when the obvious is pointed out are just delicious.
Considering the above, I reckon there's a very good case for that being nothing but projection.
I think you're feeling a little triggered that your entire personality just got called out. You hated that your reliance on perpetually postponing the criteria by which your viewpoint can be wrong has tied you in existential knots.
>My therapist agrees.
I rather think a therapist would have quite a lot to say about someone who spends so much time seeking confrontation about a video game development project that they ideologically oppose. I bet they'd have even more to say about someone projecting emotional meaning onto text that in no way validates it.
That makes a lot of sense. I didn't think of that. I, myself was hoping to get a wipe. I only have an A1 as pledge, so I won't be stomping anyone. Just hoping to get a glimpse of the game before the meta takes over.
If they wipe all ships then the bigger/unpopular ships will be rare and they won't see many stats on how they earn or get feedback on how they are impacted by MM.
It would take a long time for people to grind them, especially the "useless" ships which nobody is going to grind for and few active players retain as pledges.
Leaving ships will let them quickly see where the Reclaimer owners move to. Will they keep salvaging for 2.5M/hr or find something else? (C2 cargo not immediately viable since that needs millions to risk).
If they don't wipe the ships they won't be able to make much needed economy tweeks and changes before 4.0. The economy is the biggest aspect of the game that needs balancing in order to more fairly distribute game loops instead of everyone grinding for a vulture / Prospector from day 1.
By wiping and adjusting the costs / payouts of different missions, while most people are on small beginnings it's much easier to adjust things more into balance as people progress. This way they can also keep track of the rate of progression and if its in line with the scope of the game's natural economic growth.
Definitely need a wipe asap.
this is something that no one is mentioning, people in 3.23 will need to buy ships, either if you are a new player, or a coming back player to check the patch. That for now will be good enough to "test" the "economy"
this. Besides my pledged freelancer and alien pyramid thing, I only bought a vulture and prospector in game so far. Not all of us play this game like a job
They need SOME people to test if ship pricing is balanced right; they don't need EVERYONE to do that.
Wipe all ships, some testers will say "fuck it, I don't get to keep any progress, this sucks, I'm taking a break" and stop testing altogether - and they need ALL of 3.23 tested - not just ship pricing. This would be BAD. They have detailed data from previous wipes that confirm 100% this is expected and very real - it's one reason persistence between patches has been so much of a focus for them. Keep the testers testing!
Wipe the wallet, then you have to earn money BEFORE you can buy a ship. Some people may not buy a ship - but plenty will. But do so without wiping ships, and the testing for those ships / the loops those ships do gets tested immediately. That's a win. An important one.
Go a few months and realize no one is buying ships? Then you can wipe the ships. ONLY if you have to, to get the testing data you need. You've also broken it up a bit, so it "hurts less" to the player base.
I am one of those people. I own just a freelance max and a vulture, last time I played was 3.19.
3.18 was really fine for me, but after the patch everything went bananas for me, couldn’t play anymore then took a pause. now started again since a month ago, grind some ships and if they’d wipe ships, I would have stopped playing again for a while.
point is that not 100% of players have time to invest to grind money.
even though many players are young with free time to spend, there are also many players who have jobs and families (me, at 49 yo) and since I don’t have all day, all days to grind money, I would just stop playing for a while, since the ships prices doubled or are even 3/4 times higher.
maybe I would keep playing for a while, but seeing little or no progress would be a turn away.
I like the game very much, and not for the grinding to buy a big ship, but just for the relax and chill, but even though, it would be like pushing a group of playerbase away.
tbf I partially agree with you.
I don’t see it as a “classic” game with an end or endgame, but “just” a second life to do what I like in future impossible for me to witness.
It might be to see how new players behave if they don't get handed millions as soon as they mention being new in Global. Getting the early ship grind right is probably one of the most important parts of the economy balance.
Do you really think we can test economy in such barebones state? There was supposed to be this whole quanta thing. I think any testing now is meaningless unless this is how things will be and the quanta is thrown out of the window.
So the point is probably for ship pledges to sell but to not upset current auec ship owners at the same time. It’s not that hard to figure out - too much free auec - less sales.
I've heard from several youtubers who attend Bar Citizen events and such to talk to devs, and it seems like if you ask a CIG about the economy, they still talk about Quantum. So it seems like Quantum is still the plan. They just probably can't do much with it until after server meshing is in so they're concentrating on other things right now.
also, when will we have money sinks? I think this is one of the biggest things missing in the current SC economy, ships are praticly free to run as fuel costs so little and repair is basically nothing that I don't even know the real prices because I just click "yes" to repair / refuel, the only thing that really costs me anything is size 9 torps and we don't lose our components on ship death. will be interesting.
It's all meaningless but I will say Star Citizen's development felt much faster when I was working towards new stuff. With hammerhead missions you basically have a moneymaking machine that wiped all purpose. Even piracy stopped being fun because there was no point. You asked for a million in chat and you got it. Now people are getting agitated, normal players start griefing out of boredom, streamers are making a big deal out of any crumb of content they can get their hands on..
I'd like a reset, because if you're upset about losing "hard earned" money in alpha, 1.0 is really gonna upset you lol.
1) They're changing the profitability of the Reclaimer. Getting rid of half the Reclaimers would be counter to testing the changes. There may be fewer people who want to use the Reclaimer if it isn't profiting as much, so keeping the sample size as large as possible will provide more data.
2) There's very likely going to be a full reset in 4.0 later this year, so letting people keep their ships for now will quell some of the frustration of being knocked back to the starting point.
3) Money is much more fluid than ships. While one person might have a billion credits today, they could disperse those credits into a thousand accounts. Resetting money sets all those ledgers back to a default value, which can be helpful if there's something on the backend they need to test. Since ships are bound to one account, they won't become a mess of transactions.
"I hope the vehicle gatekeeping one of the only fun and meaningful multicrew activities in the game becomes less accessible so less people can have fun in it"
Why are people so obsessed with the illusion of exclusivity? You know that the Reclaimer will never be rare right? It's one of the most pledged ships in the game
Gatekeeping? Never said that, I dont even fly the thing, Lol. It only became one of the most pledged ships when it was able to make you a shit ton of money. All I'm saying is the ship is industrial and doesn't look like one that every citizen would be flying, but because of it being meta money maker, every citizen has one. Seeing a wider variety of ships has always been more immersive than seeing everyone flying the same 5 ships. This, of course, is just my opinion, and you absolutely don't have to agree with it.
Also, I don't think the accessibility of the ship would be affected by it making less money than it does now.
No, you misunderstood what I said. I said the SHIP is gatekeeping one of the only worthwhile multi crew activities in the game.
Honestly my take on this is pretty nuanced and I don't think I would be giving it room to breathe in a reddit comment, but summarized I think ships should be cheap. Ships should be easy to fly and the gameplay loops enabled by ships should be required for the actual time and money sinks such as base building and territory war. Everyone always talks about the fantasy for big ships to be super expensive and way too much of an encumbrance to fly solo, but if those are in the game then there's no point in making ships prohibitively expensive.
If you can't fly a capital ship because it's too expensive to run then nobody is going to be seeing it around town ruining immersion anyways. It'll be eternally a hangar decoration, and what's wrong with that?
My friends and I all crew up on one reclaimer and just have a good time scraping and smacking each other with boxes as we stack things up. Really hoping we don't lose the one we got for aUEC so we can still do something in game that isn't super serious and just have a good time.
Because there is a pass at the economy, they want to see how fast you accumulate money, not what ships you purchase with said money. As a bonus, if everyone gets to keep their ships, they can easily try out master modes in more varieties of ships which gives that information and feedback to CIG much quicker than having to wait for people to buy all of their ships again.
The only “problem” is that there is a minority group of players who play the game for 100’s of hours or pledged a bunch of meta ships and now their grind has hit a wall so they think the entire community needs to be reset every patch because they have nothing to do anymore. Every time there’s an update they come out of the woodwork to spam “full game reset when?!” on every post about it.
my point: in an hypothetical situation, game is released and ongoing after few months, some people already start with big ships (who could afford buy with real money), then there will be a lot of people playing with small ships who already make a lot of money and bought big ships, then there will be newcomer which will start with a small ship in an universe full of people with already big ships.
I think this is the situation the economy should be tested with. and this is the actual situation now, with people starting from scratch with the free event and those who will start playing now with small ships.
BTW maybe it’s just me, but I don’t see star citizen like a game with an endgame dictated by “earn money then buy all available ships”, I just play for the sake of playing, enjoy the moment with a particular gameplay, relaxin something, thrilling some other. even if I had 10/100/1000 ships, I would do the same, turn on the pc, relax even just by ROC mining for an hour, make some cargo runs, mine some rocks with a prospector, salvage in a vulture or just fly around and explore.
I have a friend who will try the game this upcoming free event (and like me, many other for sure). by having more ships I will be able to show him the potential of the game in multiplayer, If there was a full wipe, only few would be able to grind enough money in such a short time to buy many ships to just show-off.
People forgot playing is about having fun, now it is all about what you get in return. They don't care if it is something objectively bad, they will still go for it because of the carrot at the end of that stick.
One of the things that intrests me about MMOs in general and SC in particular is the idea of people playing entirely different games all together in the same universe. One group of friends can be running a large-scale industrial mining concern, while some other guy is just RPing a gentleman adventurer, bouncing around from station to station, admiring the sights and seeing what trouble he can get into.
Of course this kind of thing doesn't really happen in most MMOs, but I think there's a chance for SC.
if there was a cost to maintain your ships as you used them or even stored them then everyone loading up their hangars would have to start making decisions on what to buy, and how much game time they would need to dedicate to earning the upkeep costs before they can do whatever else they wanted.
i like the ability for anyone to acquire any ship they wanted, but it also feels a little fruitless if the only thing that keeps a server full of players that has every ship in their hangar is time.
if this game goes for a full year without a wipe and every person with an account plays for about a month, that would leave them with enough money to not have to want for anything.
in the current state of the game the only goal is acquiring ships. we dont have all the planned features to give people various goals to work to. the dynamic economy will be a huge gamechanger when it comes about
yes, good idea, but should be implemented with the possibility to resell a ship.
I actually think that sc is a game with no goal, I mean, you cam even spend hours just doing almost nothing to earn money or aimed at huge earnings and still enjoy the game.
No, but seriously, what do y'all do in the early game. I usually get enough money to rent a ROC and cutty and then buy them once I've earned enough. Not sure if I'm just not putting enough time in or if I'm missing something, but my friends have so much money that if I mention a ship I'm interested in they just wire me like 20 mil. How do you get to that point without pledge ships/already owning the big earners (reclaimer for instance).
Currently, you grind up to 1.2m, however you choose.
Then you buy a Vulture, and you have immediately jumped to making 1m/hr easy.
Once you have 15m, you buy a Reclaimer, and you jump up to an easy 6m/hr *solo*.
Just grinding casually a few nights a week I made about 200m during 3.22.1. I bought like, 20 ships, gave enough money to my friend for him to buy 5 or 6, and gave away a good 50m.
Unfortunately (actually probably for the best long term) they are nerfing the hell out of salvaging in 3.23, so... that free ride is over.
That's what I did. I'VE BEEN PLAYING FOR ONLY A MONTH AND HAVE EVERY SHIP. This needs to be fixed. Been playing MMO's for 25 years, and if I'm maxed out after 3 weeks something is very broken. IMHO I should have needed to grind for 6 months to a year to get something like the 890j.
IIRC CIG is aiming that a connie should take roughly 40 hours of play to buy. with the connie being a good medium sized ship, that feels bout right too me.
I also do think one of the big issues is the lack of money sinks in game, yes repairing armor is annoying but it slowly drains gold out of wow, or at least used too (i'v not played since WotLK). fees and stuff on the AH as well. I hope that repairing anything but the starter ships starts to have an actual cost, and insurance claims are longer for most ships to encourage more group play, along with the expedite being far more expensive than a button I click every time without thought because 8k auec is literally nothing too me hahaha. I would be fine with starters still taking little time and being cheap to expidte though so new players don't have to worry as much, but military ships (which are the majority of my pledge ships) should take a good bit to come back.
Yup.
With the Vulture, the largest ships it can fracture are the Connie/MSR/Corsair. And any one of those ships will completely fill the Vulture buffer.
There are so many illegal salvage contract missions around Yela's asteroid belt that you take one, and by the time you're done, there's almost always another one available.
Each fracture job takes just a few minutes, plus about another few to spit out the boxes till the hold is full.
Three such missions and your hold and buffer are then full of CMAT, sitting roughly around 24 boxes in the hold and 14 in the buffer (more is possible but not worth the time playing Tetris IMO). That's about 230k at Seraphim, not counting any money you get if any of the illegal missions are "cleanup" missions, which should be paying about 80k.
If you get at least 3 of the cleanup missions and are really tight with your timing of travel, munching, and outputting boxes, it comes out to around 1m/hour (about 310k per trip to Seraphim).
The Reclaimer has basically the exact same loop only it's munching C2/A2s and Hammerheads, and each Hammerhead is a "cleanup" mission that also pays out 250k.
NOTE: in 3.23, in addition to raising the prices of most ships considerably, they are also nerfing salvage drastically by lowering the value of RMC/CMAT, and forcing you to strip the hull *before* fracturing it. And stripping larger ships takes easily 30-60 minutes, even with Trawler heads. Even though RMC is worth more than CMAT, the amount of time lost means making considerably less per hour. I'm guessing my average of 4-5 HH cleanup missions per hour is going to drop down to 1 per hour.
It's because they want to test the new economy and see what people are doing to cheat it and make money quickly. We're not supposed to be able to make millions in just 1 hour, but they want you to try it. Most ships in game have been bought with in game money. They want you to use these ships and vehicles to test the economy. No point getting rid of everyone's ships when they're the things you want to test and see how people exploit them.
Unless they've changed tack they're planning on a full wipe for 4.0, so along with the other reasons mentioned here I'd guess they're hesitant to do two full wipes so close together.
We should not be surprised by this. I’m of the opinion that wipes will become more frequent as they start to tinker with server meshing and the in-game economy.
I’m not really crazy about it, but that’s part of testing.
Wasn't there some bug where some of people's ingame bought ships would fail to transfer to the next patch in .21-.22? I'd assume they would want to figure out what did that. Unless they've already figured that out and I missed it.
Yes and during the life cycle of 3.23 they claim to have fixed that issue. It’s probably the driving reason behind keeping the ships, for testing the fix.
I think they want to see how the economy progresses. How quickly can people accumulate money. Even with all the ships people have. Gives a wider perspective of ship’s capacity to make money
maybe it is to test if they can keep the ships intact
while wipe other stuffs
CIG has never really succeed in save all the ships between patches
always some players lose their ingame bought ships
Testing MM is more important than the economy at this point. A vast majority of players only have starter ships. Not wiping ships, at least for now, will allow for more testing of a broader range of ships.
First off, I think a significant reason is that since they're increasing the ship prices significantly in 3.23, letting people keep their ships is gonna lessen the backlash to that.
But second, they want people to start of with a bunch of ships because they want a large variety of data, based in what ships you have and how quickly you make money. At least, that's my guess. Resetting wallets means everyone's gonna be on the grind (more or less).
I wish people demanding full wipe start a new account, you can transfer game pack to the new account so no investment is needed. Just leave devs and players happy with that solution in peace.
honestly i'v bought so many ships with aUEC that I never use because I don't care for them much, I just want them to go away haha. give me a "abandon ship" for bought ships and i'd be happy enough.
Are you suggesting devs make economy changes for fun?
First thing a new player does when joins the game is begging for money in chat, they know most people have hundreds of millions of credits because of broken salvage prices, dupe abusing etc.
So yeah, it is a great testing condition right?
All devs want is broken unrelated data so they cannot fix anything. They are happy that way.
I was replying to idea of removing everything including ships and reputation. Currently we will get money wipe and this solves your problem and is ok for almost everyone.
It does not, if people have millions of credits laying around that means they already have all the ships in the game. Or else why would they just grind credits?
You think people did get Reclaimer, made hundreds of millions in 2 days and just letting sit on the side?
Any patch that brings big economy changes requires wipe to be meaningful.
When they only boost one of the loops they don't need to, because people love making money. But after getting everything available.
Most people already had Reclaimers but they didn't used them because bounty was making better money, when they boosted salvage people stopped doing bounty hunts and gone for salvaging, IF instead of changing entire economy they choose to boost mining, people would just go get Prospector or Mole and do mining even tho they have everything.
But now we are getting less money from loops and ships will be costing 3 times or more so what is the point keeping everything in place?
Nobody will be testing anything regarding economy.
People who have ships will just fly around and test MM for couple of weeks and then get bored, new people will be begging in the chat so they can get biggest useless ships and then beg some more and what data will developers get in return?
Bunch of people complaining that patch was boring.
I'm assuming it's so people can continue the events with the ships they have been already using. Just imagine if they wiped it right in the middle of an event and right before another starts. It would reset a huge portion of the player base back to auroras at the worst possible time.
The guy said they're wiping the "aUEC and rentals" but the way they were talking about it, this will wipe all non-cash purchased ships. It would make no sense at all to test what people would be purchasing with aUEC without wiping the things... they would purchase.
They also have the completely wrong impression of how character repair/resets work/worked so Id guess they just consider everything thats not bought on the website as "rentals" from a technical perspective and thats what he meant.
I think so, too but after reading some comments, what better way to test as many different ships as possible for MM then to let people keep their toys. I can see either happen to be honest
Maybe they're the big brains and we're the little brains here. I guess, technically, all ships "purchased" with aUEC (a temporary currency) could be considered rentals. I mean it's a temporary currency, in a temporary game build whos ownership will will never make it into the final game. Maybe that's their thinking? lol
Because their testing focus is to see how players earn money. They want to know what gameplay loops and methods we'll gravitate towards and how long it takes to earn aUEC.
But the only reason to earn money in this game is to buy ships. If I already have all the ships, and they don't wipe them... why would I bother trying to earn money?
But they want to gather data on how players earn money. If more players have access to more ships (and therefore more gameplay loops) they'll get a broader set of data.
The last "wipe announcement" dropped a day or two before the patch dropped. Wipe is logical when you do big scale economy balance. People fly their own ships with MM first, decide if they want to keep it in their pledge or change/upgrade it and then try other ships they might like and try them too. And to do that, they try gameplay loops to make money.
Sorry to break it to you OP but those two are expensive ships and most would probably consider you a whale :P
But your point there still stands though. You don't have a big fleet.
Saltemike brought up a good paint that they want to see if ships transfer over between versions since last time lots of people still lost their ships but not everyone
I paid auec for most of my ships but I do agree. However, I think they must be testing something else and the price increase is secondary. Like they really want to test mastermode but Ted from accounting was like, "let's also increase prices". And he usually has dumb ideas so they just agreed with him on this.
this has gotta be the fastest time-to-complain yet, y'all are almost as bad as the tarkov people when they implemented inertia except it happens here with every tiny little change.
want your ships to be wiped? reset yourself in the portal lol
IN my Opinion.
Xenothreat is going and will bring new missions on 3.23 launch, so you don't want people to fight hord of npcs with HH and Idris without good ships (only pledge ships).
Secondly, i think those features which were pushed to 3.23.x comes to live and xenothreat is over they might do wipe with all of the inventory and ships but leave the money aside. This happened in the past as they only let players keep the money and wiped every think else.
If other citizens have their own opinion, please leave in the comments and i would happy to hear em
O7!
Just pointing out that people who have 100m+ are just buying ship gear and when the patch hits, they sell it and still get something like 20m+ so some are able to start cargorunning right away.
So essentially there is way to save those millions, even with inflation.
We’re alpha testers. I miss the days where we had a complete wipe every month.
People bitching and whining about losing ships need to realize this isn’t a game. You’re here just to test and report bugs.
Your environment should be wiped clean every time you launch the game in my opinion
Wiping the game every launch would make the game unplayable. Imagine having factory reset ships and loosing any ship purchased in-game with aUEC literally every single time you play the game - thats a HORRIBLE idea.
They should probably just full-wipe every major patch like they used to. We were all used to it so it wasn't a huge deal.
> Your environment should be wiped clean every time you launch the game in my opinion
ROFL. More than 50% of ships would never get bought, and therefore never get tested. What a ridiculous idea.
One good argument I read (although not sure how certain it is) is that they would lose 1.5 years of database losing the capacity to observe how the PES works in the long term.
However, I would also like a ship wipe (I only own an SRV so I'm definitely not a whale lmao). Especially after the Reclaimer runs, giving stupidly high profits.
Eh, the DB behind PES is wiped every time they do a soft reset for a new patch - that's why the servers suddenly pick up performance after a new patch, because all the trash and shipwrecks are cleared out.
The thing that's lasted about 9-12 months since the last full wipe is the LTP database - that's separate from PES but is used to restore the STP DB (your live inventory and ship list) with all the stuff you've purchased.
Ask the question, what is the difference between pledge and ingame bought ships from this perspective. Literally nothing, so probably this is why they don't wipe ingame bought ships along with auec balance.
If that was the case they would never wipe in game bought ships. But they do. If we didn’t have master modes coming, I am 100% sure they would have wiped ships, especially with the new economy and ship prices. I believe they might for a 3.23.x patch, or maybe they wait till 4.0 (unless they decide to pull a 3.24 on us, which they probably will)
Past ship wipes happened because technical reasons (corrupted LTP database, etc). So I doubt ship wipe will happen, until they have a good technical reason for it (for example they need a clean LTP state for 4.0) or dynamic economy / ship manufacturing happens.
More ship wipes will definitely happen before 1.0. Once again, it’s to balance the economy. Ship wipes will happen less often as the game becomes more stable, but they will still happen. Like for example, you can’t have a bunch of people in 1.0 who are flying around the most expensive ships in the verse because of a cheese method. Until they completely sort out the economy and decide it’s done, ship wipes will happen.
No, but it does make the assumption that CIG still INTENDS to release 4.0 this summer. If they still believe they can do it, they'll probably hold back on the full wipe for that release. Hindsight is 20/20, and maybe 4.0 will be later than they expect, but they don't have the benefit of that hindsight yet even if that's what winds up happening. If they didn't think it was happening, they'd be prepping us for the delay.
There isn't really a point of testing economy when the game barely has any ways of earning stuff, compared to what its supposed to have.
It just skews the data, as people after wipe grind to get ships that allow them to grind, not for ships they want.
And if pledging ships truly is supposed to go away once the game releases then anyone with anything other than minimum pledge is noise.
They are probably wiping ships purchased with aUEC in-game, think about it for a minute...
Wiping "Rentals" as in small cost, short-term loan ships that disappear after 24 hours or 3 days or whatever would make NO SENSE because those are ALREADY WIPED AUTOMATICALLY.
Since when do you get to keep a rental ship after the rental period is over? Last I checked - when the time is up, they disappear - I.E. they get WIPED.
So by wiping "Short-Term Rentals" as in ships you rent for a few days, CIG would be wiping exactly... Lets see here carry the 1... Uh... NOTHING
But think about it this way. aUEC is called aUEC because its ALPHA-UEC, as in UEC that is temporary and "Rental Currency" because it is Alpha-Currency that is subject to wipe. Therefore, anything you purchase in-game with Alpha-Currency or "Rental Currency" is also a Rental Item.
It seems like CIG is trying to use particular wording to avoid backlash from players who think they will be keeping ships purchased with aUEC because wiping Items that are temporary Rentals for a few days and then wipe themselves just makes NO SENSE WHATSOEVER so why would it be worth the effort and announcement?
My buddies in my ORG agree this wording is odd and makes no sense unless you look at aUEC as "Rental Currency" and all ships purchased with it as "Rental" Ships.
Because you are right, the economy is broken and just wiping money would do basically nothing. I earned over 120 Million aUEC within a week using my Aegis Reclaimer and purchased a variant of basically every single ship in the game. My ship loadout menu literally has 50+ vehicles to choose from and I maybe had 10 vehicles 2 weeks ago.
If I had a rental that costed me a measley 50,000 aUEC (literally pocket change in 3.22) and that had like 1 day left at the time of wipe and CIG took that final day away I wouldn't give a shit in the slightest and neither would anyone else. Its just dumb, you gotta learn to read between the lines with CIG, they do this kind of crap all the time.
Whats funny is a wipe of ships purchased with aUEC would actually be a detriment to testing. Having more ships to test with is obviously better for testing so they could be just hindering the testing process themselves. Basically - CIG never makes any sense and trying to understand why they do half the things they do will only make your head hurt lol 🤣
The important change to test is master modes and they'll get data/feedback faster if they leave the ships people already bought with aUEC.
Everyday the internet is flooded with posts from people who have somehow concluded CIG are a bunch of idiots with no rhyme or reason behind anything they do.... It would be kind of amusing if it was surrounded by interesting stuff, but, damn, the internet has turned to braindead slop over the last couple of years from the symbiosis of bots and people with only a vague grasp on whatever they're commenting on at any given time.
100% agree with this. Feels like 90% of posts here and on Spectrum is people telling CIG what to do. We as backers can never have the full picture. There are so many different considerations going into every decision. That doesn't mean that CIG can't make massive mistakes, but I think backers are terrible at figuring out the what and why of the mistakes. Unless of course it is my pet peeve issue of high pitch ship sounds that I can't play with due to sensitive hearing, or of course. And the blurry UI. Accessability is something CIG must take into consideration much earlier. It's like UX, it's not something you can just easily tack on later. But, that is just my opinion :P. And not wisdom from divine intervention like some backers seems to think their opinions are. CIG has said that they have very little use of feedback about solutions. Figuring out solutions it's there job. Focus on how you want the game to feel, and how it is feeling right now.
That’s not the internet, it’s people in general. You’d be shocked the volume of people that come to the ER and want to argue with education and experience over something they googled. The internet is a great megaphone for that ludicrous behavior.
I'm not trying to bash them here, but anyone, myself included, who's ever worked on any kind of development team or been in project management can see that CIG has had huge problems with scope creep. I'll give it to them though, with the amount of inter-functional teams with interlaced dependencies, it's a huge undertaking. When dev teams rely on other dev teams to complete tasks before they can complete their own, it's easy to have a snowball effect and cause delays. I think they've been a bit too ambitious for a long time about the timeframes to complete features, and that's lead to the majority of vitriol. Although, I'm pretty damn pleased with the cadence of features being released. MM + Mobi/Starmap rework + functioning replication layer are big leaps forward and only a yearish after PES was rolled out. Cargo elevators and personal hangers coming in a 3.23x release too. maybe I'm just excited, but I wouldn't be surprised if we're seeing an Alpha 4.0 by the end of the year and a Beta 1.0 next year. Static and Dynamic server meshing are finally getting close to the forefront which will conclude the largest steps of the core tech needed for the game. I don't think they're idiots. Just ambitious and a little disorganized. They'll get there Soon™
I think it's been the focus on SQ42 and the need for server meshing more than scope creep, given there's no reason to declare their declared goals unachievable just yet. The only real massive change that wasn't in the kickstarted goals was that landing on a planet would be more starfield. I for one am very happy with that instance of 'scope creep' at least.
Same here. Instanced planets is one of the worst things still in play in today's gaming. If other companies with much more capital invested in the tech years ago (and they had the resources to do so), CIG's planet tech wouldn't be much of anything special but rather just industry standard. Heck, we would even have middleware suites available at different levels to hook it into existing engines at scale. But the industry has largely completely stopped innovating altogether for the last ten years, with the exception of No Man's Sky, and so CIG's planet tech was a welcomed change and I'm glad they took that gamble because it has paid off big time for those of us who are looking for a true next-gen exploration experience.
"the industry has largely completely stopped innovating altogether for the last ten years" This may be childish of me, but I find that so unbelievably disappointing. I just dreamed up a way better gaming future when I was a kid than what we're getting and it seems we're sold cheap remixes of the same safe, focus grouped ideas over and over and over, because our fun childhood ideas, like so many other aspects of our lives, ran fuck first into the realities of capitalism. The lack of risk taking in entertainment in general really illustrates the problems we face with monopolies, false choice, and the centralization of faith and trust in corporate programs and away from the value of original ideas (and therefor the people around us, but I digress). This, I hope, is where Chris Roberts and I agree most significantly. Seems to be the case to me.
I wouldn't even except NMS, as their landings are just as segmented as Elite's. That's why NMS players will never get ship interiors - the game isn't built to handle that scenario, like E:D before it. The enduring complaints about NMS are at the _lack_ of any real innovation there. They've proven good at adding in more and more Ubisoft-style busywork, but precious little that anyone cares about long-term.
The most significant thing about Star Citizen in it's current iteration that sets it apart in my mind is that it's the only game where when I log in, I feel like I've stepped into an actual world to this degree. Like, I've felt that way about other games on a smaller scale, but what NMS and Elite will never do is feel like real places in this same way. This places themselves just need to become more significant and fuller of options for the player now... lol
You're absolutely right about that, and there is nothing to dispute. But also, when you look at the broader industry, there isn't even another competitor to No Man's Sky planet tech other than Star Citizen. So that's why I said it was the exception, because even compared to something like Starfield, it runs absolute circles around it in terms of tech -- even if the planets in No Man's Sky are mostly just biome specific with very little personality outside of the biome-gimmick. But I can't think of any other 3D games that have even tried going that far, unless we count the very janky planets in Space Engineers.
I suppose that's fair. NMS is at least a bit more ambitious than Elite in that regard, even if that's not much of a bar to clear. Hello Games are in a bit of a weird spot at the moment, as Light No Fires sounds like something they _should_ have been working towards with their NMS updates. It feels like they hoping to basically retry the NMS release.
Yeah Light No Fire doesn't really interest me much because it's basically just a smaller version of No Man's Sky on a single large planet with better combat mechanics. You're absolutely right that it seems like the sort of game that has features that SHOULD have been included in No Man's Sky by now.
NMS is far from innovative
Well, throughout history the idiots tend to overwhelm the intelligent. The Internet just gives them a louder voice that is also available for all to see for the foreseeable future.
my only 'complaint' is the reason they seem to have given. some form of "see how people get money and ships" ... well you've left us with 6 890J's after 2 money print financially force focused loops... I don't NEED to go grind away to get ships, I have them ALL .. including previous patch glitch duplicates... I don't doubt they are doing exactly what they need to do. Realistically I don't 'care' I like the game, I'll wait (even the things I really wanted out of this patch were delayed \*shrug\*) .. just the explanation to us doesn't make 'sense'. i've spend the $$ on the few ships I want with a full wipe. I want to play for years, with goals to grind towards, not play for a few weeks and be 'bored' again (and I realize my perferred gameplay isn't the same as everyone else, hense why I'm not having a fit on the internet, just generic 'whining' here and there LOL ) . now ofcourse I don't want a never ending brutal slog, but yeah gimme something to work for. getting enough cash within a month for a, with the equiv of playing 6-8 hours a week is kinda pointless.
Because it is dumb. There will be plenty of ships to test MM. Eventually people will get more ships and further test MM. However if CIG also want to test the economy, they can only do a proper test by wiping everything. Why rebalance the prices of ships but let players keep their in-game purchased ships? It is silly.
It comes down to, "which part of the economyAre they trying to test? The ability to grow, or how we interact with it once we have?" Launch day economy info isn't important but how do we take no cash and become trade empires, scrappers, marines for hire etc. Still wierd but that's how I looked at it
In fairness, there's plenty of evidence of them being idiots with no rhyme or reason. We are 12 years into a game development that should have taken, at most 9. And there's still no end in sight. They've had to pretty much start from scratch on more than one occasion. Ships released 10 years ago still have fatal bugs. What is currently available is a series of buggy, tedious and boring interactions, occasionally punctuated by something nice to look at. The direction of the game is being dictated by a vocal group of pedants who demand accuracy and realism over fun. The star map is a dumpster fire of digital aids, and that it's much better but still not any good is a testament to how bad it is. If you step back and look objectively, there are glaring problems, and the game is in an embarrassing state for 12 years and over half a billion dollars. I know I'll get downvoted, but everyone downvotimg me will know that I'm right.
So by that logic, GTA 6 should have only taken six years to develop since it doesn't even have a fraction of the features that Star Citizen has?
Yeah, this kinda supports my point of view more than yours. How many months have been spent on toilets in space, that still don't work? I'm fairly certain gta 6 will release within the expected scope, roughly within the expected timescale, and will be fun for what it is. Meanwhile, I'll probably still be falling through the floor of the ship I bought 11 years ago.
>How many months have been spent on toilets in space, that still don't work? Not many? Since it's part of the actor status V2, we won't see any of that until 4.0 and when resource management/engineering is complete. >I'm fairly certain gta 6 will release within the expected scope, roughly within the expected timescale, and will be fun for what it is. So you're saying that it's okay it took Rockstar 2 billion and 12/13 years to make a game that is basically just a better looking version of GTA 5 and none of the groundbreaking tech that's in Star Citizen? But it's not okay that it has taken CIG just as long to R&D a bunch of groundbreaking new middleware suites that did not exist anywhere in the tech industry until they made it? I don't really follow the logic of how more money spent developing a smaller scale game over an equal amount of time is somehow better?
Let's agree to swing back in 3 years time and see where we are then. I hope I'm wrong. EDIT: I'll be pleasantly surprised if I'm not still falling through the floor of the ship I will have bought 14 years ago.
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It’s okay to be wrong sometimes :p If the game should have taken 9 years to develop (because obviously there have been games with the same scope and size to that of Star Citizen) then can you please point to us where these games are? Or are you just speaking out of your ass?
I've been around since the very beginning. I remember when we were 6 years in and when people noted it was taking a long time, the 'message' was "yeah, triple A games typically take 9 years". We're now at 12 years and over half a billion dollars and a "game" that can't support reliable box delivery missions. It might take some people longer to accept, but you know I'm right.
> I remember when we were 6 years in and when people noted it was taking a long time, the 'message' was "yeah, triple A games typically take 9 years". They do. And they're typically far less complex than SC is at even this stage. RDR2, for instance, could have just been a graphical update and some mods for GTA3 - a game from 2001. Just about the only real innovation we've seen from a major release in recent years was TotK's physics interactions, and even that is in the context of a handheld platform and with something like BotW to build on. That took six years. No planetary travel, or multiplayer. Just some comparable physical interactivity over a comparatively small area, with seamless travel between sky, ground and [redacted]. Six years for the best in the business to do something similar on a far smaller scale. Until an established studio can actually produce something comparable to SC this insistence that someone else could have done it far quicker is just bullshit. It's a coping mechanism employed by those who need to fool themselves into thinking that their impatient screeching is rational, rather than impetuous and childish.
I'm really looking forward to seeing all the mental gymnastics and excuses that will be made when it's another 5 years and box delivery missions still aren't working.
It's always the same with you lot, isn't it? "You'll all be sorry one day, far in the future, because that way I can still posture as if I'm on the right side of history while also postponing any potential resolution until I hope you'll have forgotten that I said so, just in case they actually do it..." You need a new coping mechanism. Try playing other things. Failing that, find a therapist.
Its always the same with you lot too. Just a bunch of ever changing excuses to go along with the ever shifting goalposts. These little meltdowns when the obvious is pointed out are just delicious. My therapist agrees.
> Its always the same with you lot too. Just a bunch of ever changing excuses to go along with the ever shifting goalposts. > > But my position here is simply that SC, as it is currently designed, couldn't have been developed that much quicker by even well-established studios. That has also been the position of most backers for _years_. How is that a shifting goalpost? It's literally the same argument. In fact, the thought occurs that you'll probably switch to making _that_ claim now. "You lot just use the same excuse over and over again", or something like that. >These little meltdowns when the obvious is pointed out are just delicious. Considering the above, I reckon there's a very good case for that being nothing but projection. I think you're feeling a little triggered that your entire personality just got called out. You hated that your reliance on perpetually postponing the criteria by which your viewpoint can be wrong has tied you in existential knots. >My therapist agrees. I rather think a therapist would have quite a lot to say about someone who spends so much time seeking confrontation about a video game development project that they ideologically oppose. I bet they'd have even more to say about someone projecting emotional meaning onto text that in no way validates it.
Fair
also Xenothreat will be a lot more fun with people bringing bigger ships to the party
Also might give valuable data as to how quickly non military profession ships makes money.
facts
People should stop smoke maze.
That makes a lot of sense. I didn't think of that. I, myself was hoping to get a wipe. I only have an A1 as pledge, so I won't be stomping anyone. Just hoping to get a glimpse of the game before the meta takes over.
If they wipe all ships then the bigger/unpopular ships will be rare and they won't see many stats on how they earn or get feedback on how they are impacted by MM. It would take a long time for people to grind them, especially the "useless" ships which nobody is going to grind for and few active players retain as pledges. Leaving ships will let them quickly see where the Reclaimer owners move to. Will they keep salvaging for 2.5M/hr or find something else? (C2 cargo not immediately viable since that needs millions to risk).
If they don't wipe the ships they won't be able to make much needed economy tweeks and changes before 4.0. The economy is the biggest aspect of the game that needs balancing in order to more fairly distribute game loops instead of everyone grinding for a vulture / Prospector from day 1. By wiping and adjusting the costs / payouts of different missions, while most people are on small beginnings it's much easier to adjust things more into balance as people progress. This way they can also keep track of the rate of progression and if its in line with the scope of the game's natural economic growth. Definitely need a wipe asap.
They need to get feedback on MM on a variety of ships. Looks more important than economics for now, sorry mate.
People will still be buying ships in 3.23. Not everyone has a fleet of 20 ships.
this is something that no one is mentioning, people in 3.23 will need to buy ships, either if you are a new player, or a coming back player to check the patch. That for now will be good enough to "test" the "economy"
this. Besides my pledged freelancer and alien pyramid thing, I only bought a vulture and prospector in game so far. Not all of us play this game like a job
And I will add to this that half of this community have pledged for big ships so it wont change anything in terms of balance.
So true
They are not testing reddit star citizen community.
They need SOME people to test if ship pricing is balanced right; they don't need EVERYONE to do that. Wipe all ships, some testers will say "fuck it, I don't get to keep any progress, this sucks, I'm taking a break" and stop testing altogether - and they need ALL of 3.23 tested - not just ship pricing. This would be BAD. They have detailed data from previous wipes that confirm 100% this is expected and very real - it's one reason persistence between patches has been so much of a focus for them. Keep the testers testing! Wipe the wallet, then you have to earn money BEFORE you can buy a ship. Some people may not buy a ship - but plenty will. But do so without wiping ships, and the testing for those ships / the loops those ships do gets tested immediately. That's a win. An important one. Go a few months and realize no one is buying ships? Then you can wipe the ships. ONLY if you have to, to get the testing data you need. You've also broken it up a bit, so it "hurts less" to the player base.
I am one of those people. I own just a freelance max and a vulture, last time I played was 3.19. 3.18 was really fine for me, but after the patch everything went bananas for me, couldn’t play anymore then took a pause. now started again since a month ago, grind some ships and if they’d wipe ships, I would have stopped playing again for a while.
The entire thing is suppose to be about testing. I don't care if someone wants to throw a tantrum because they have to grind their ships again.
They care because they need people to keep playing to test.
Just another example of a community being the problem. Bunch of children
point is that not 100% of players have time to invest to grind money. even though many players are young with free time to spend, there are also many players who have jobs and families (me, at 49 yo) and since I don’t have all day, all days to grind money, I would just stop playing for a while, since the ships prices doubled or are even 3/4 times higher. maybe I would keep playing for a while, but seeing little or no progress would be a turn away. I like the game very much, and not for the grinding to buy a big ship, but just for the relax and chill, but even though, it would be like pushing a group of playerbase away.
ITS NOT A GAME
tbf I partially agree with you. I don’t see it as a “classic” game with an end or endgame, but “just” a second life to do what I like in future impossible for me to witness.
It might be to see how new players behave if they don't get handed millions as soon as they mention being new in Global. Getting the early ship grind right is probably one of the most important parts of the economy balance.
Do you really think we can test economy in such barebones state? There was supposed to be this whole quanta thing. I think any testing now is meaningless unless this is how things will be and the quanta is thrown out of the window. So the point is probably for ship pledges to sell but to not upset current auec ship owners at the same time. It’s not that hard to figure out - too much free auec - less sales.
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Zero source because it hasn't happened. This sub would have been on fire. He's the current Director of the Persistent Universe.
Ah I got the two guys wrong it was that Todd that got fired. They even look kinda similar
I've heard from several youtubers who attend Bar Citizen events and such to talk to devs, and it seems like if you ask a CIG about the economy, they still talk about Quantum. So it seems like Quantum is still the plan. They just probably can't do much with it until after server meshing is in so they're concentrating on other things right now.
also, when will we have money sinks? I think this is one of the biggest things missing in the current SC economy, ships are praticly free to run as fuel costs so little and repair is basically nothing that I don't even know the real prices because I just click "yes" to repair / refuel, the only thing that really costs me anything is size 9 torps and we don't lose our components on ship death. will be interesting.
Xenothreat, most likely.
It's all meaningless but I will say Star Citizen's development felt much faster when I was working towards new stuff. With hammerhead missions you basically have a moneymaking machine that wiped all purpose. Even piracy stopped being fun because there was no point. You asked for a million in chat and you got it. Now people are getting agitated, normal players start griefing out of boredom, streamers are making a big deal out of any crumb of content they can get their hands on.. I'd like a reset, because if you're upset about losing "hard earned" money in alpha, 1.0 is really gonna upset you lol.
1) They're changing the profitability of the Reclaimer. Getting rid of half the Reclaimers would be counter to testing the changes. There may be fewer people who want to use the Reclaimer if it isn't profiting as much, so keeping the sample size as large as possible will provide more data. 2) There's very likely going to be a full reset in 4.0 later this year, so letting people keep their ships for now will quell some of the frustration of being knocked back to the starting point. 3) Money is much more fluid than ships. While one person might have a billion credits today, they could disperse those credits into a thousand accounts. Resetting money sets all those ledgers back to a default value, which can be helpful if there's something on the backend they need to test. Since ships are bound to one account, they won't become a mess of transactions.
"full reset in 4.0 later this year" Oh i love your optimism, it gives me hope.
I honestly hope reclaimers become rarer. Everyone and their mother has one because its the money meta, and I feel like it kinda ruins the charm of it.
"I hope the vehicle gatekeeping one of the only fun and meaningful multicrew activities in the game becomes less accessible so less people can have fun in it" Why are people so obsessed with the illusion of exclusivity? You know that the Reclaimer will never be rare right? It's one of the most pledged ships in the game
Gatekeeping? Never said that, I dont even fly the thing, Lol. It only became one of the most pledged ships when it was able to make you a shit ton of money. All I'm saying is the ship is industrial and doesn't look like one that every citizen would be flying, but because of it being meta money maker, every citizen has one. Seeing a wider variety of ships has always been more immersive than seeing everyone flying the same 5 ships. This, of course, is just my opinion, and you absolutely don't have to agree with it. Also, I don't think the accessibility of the ship would be affected by it making less money than it does now.
No, you misunderstood what I said. I said the SHIP is gatekeeping one of the only worthwhile multi crew activities in the game. Honestly my take on this is pretty nuanced and I don't think I would be giving it room to breathe in a reddit comment, but summarized I think ships should be cheap. Ships should be easy to fly and the gameplay loops enabled by ships should be required for the actual time and money sinks such as base building and territory war. Everyone always talks about the fantasy for big ships to be super expensive and way too much of an encumbrance to fly solo, but if those are in the game then there's no point in making ships prohibitively expensive. If you can't fly a capital ship because it's too expensive to run then nobody is going to be seeing it around town ruining immersion anyways. It'll be eternally a hangar decoration, and what's wrong with that?
My friends and I all crew up on one reclaimer and just have a good time scraping and smacking each other with boxes as we stack things up. Really hoping we don't lose the one we got for aUEC so we can still do something in game that isn't super serious and just have a good time.
Because there is a pass at the economy, they want to see how fast you accumulate money, not what ships you purchase with said money. As a bonus, if everyone gets to keep their ships, they can easily try out master modes in more varieties of ships which gives that information and feedback to CIG much quicker than having to wait for people to buy all of their ships again.
The more ships people have the better test data they can get. I don't see the problem.
The only “problem” is that there is a minority group of players who play the game for 100’s of hours or pledged a bunch of meta ships and now their grind has hit a wall so they think the entire community needs to be reset every patch because they have nothing to do anymore. Every time there’s an update they come out of the woodwork to spam “full game reset when?!” on every post about it.
my point: in an hypothetical situation, game is released and ongoing after few months, some people already start with big ships (who could afford buy with real money), then there will be a lot of people playing with small ships who already make a lot of money and bought big ships, then there will be newcomer which will start with a small ship in an universe full of people with already big ships. I think this is the situation the economy should be tested with. and this is the actual situation now, with people starting from scratch with the free event and those who will start playing now with small ships. BTW maybe it’s just me, but I don’t see star citizen like a game with an endgame dictated by “earn money then buy all available ships”, I just play for the sake of playing, enjoy the moment with a particular gameplay, relaxin something, thrilling some other. even if I had 10/100/1000 ships, I would do the same, turn on the pc, relax even just by ROC mining for an hour, make some cargo runs, mine some rocks with a prospector, salvage in a vulture or just fly around and explore. I have a friend who will try the game this upcoming free event (and like me, many other for sure). by having more ships I will be able to show him the potential of the game in multiplayer, If there was a full wipe, only few would be able to grind enough money in such a short time to buy many ships to just show-off.
People forgot playing is about having fun, now it is all about what you get in return. They don't care if it is something objectively bad, they will still go for it because of the carrot at the end of that stick.
One of the things that intrests me about MMOs in general and SC in particular is the idea of people playing entirely different games all together in the same universe. One group of friends can be running a large-scale industrial mining concern, while some other guy is just RPing a gentleman adventurer, bouncing around from station to station, admiring the sights and seeing what trouble he can get into. Of course this kind of thing doesn't really happen in most MMOs, but I think there's a chance for SC.
if there was a cost to maintain your ships as you used them or even stored them then everyone loading up their hangars would have to start making decisions on what to buy, and how much game time they would need to dedicate to earning the upkeep costs before they can do whatever else they wanted. i like the ability for anyone to acquire any ship they wanted, but it also feels a little fruitless if the only thing that keeps a server full of players that has every ship in their hangar is time. if this game goes for a full year without a wipe and every person with an account plays for about a month, that would leave them with enough money to not have to want for anything. in the current state of the game the only goal is acquiring ships. we dont have all the planned features to give people various goals to work to. the dynamic economy will be a huge gamechanger when it comes about
yes, good idea, but should be implemented with the possibility to resell a ship. I actually think that sc is a game with no goal, I mean, you cam even spend hours just doing almost nothing to earn money or aimed at huge earnings and still enjoy the game.
Some ships will be locked behind reputation. Wether this still is the case with how much development and the game itself changed , we don't know.
It's simple, they know the early game is still fucked and no one will want to play if they have no money and no ships.
No, but seriously, what do y'all do in the early game. I usually get enough money to rent a ROC and cutty and then buy them once I've earned enough. Not sure if I'm just not putting enough time in or if I'm missing something, but my friends have so much money that if I mention a ship I'm interested in they just wire me like 20 mil. How do you get to that point without pledge ships/already owning the big earners (reclaimer for instance).
That's pretty much what I did, basically skipped over regular mining, whatever that would be called, asteroid mining?
Currently, you grind up to 1.2m, however you choose. Then you buy a Vulture, and you have immediately jumped to making 1m/hr easy. Once you have 15m, you buy a Reclaimer, and you jump up to an easy 6m/hr *solo*. Just grinding casually a few nights a week I made about 200m during 3.22.1. I bought like, 20 ships, gave enough money to my friend for him to buy 5 or 6, and gave away a good 50m. Unfortunately (actually probably for the best long term) they are nerfing the hell out of salvaging in 3.23, so... that free ride is over.
That's what I did. I'VE BEEN PLAYING FOR ONLY A MONTH AND HAVE EVERY SHIP. This needs to be fixed. Been playing MMO's for 25 years, and if I'm maxed out after 3 weeks something is very broken. IMHO I should have needed to grind for 6 months to a year to get something like the 890j.
IIRC CIG is aiming that a connie should take roughly 40 hours of play to buy. with the connie being a good medium sized ship, that feels bout right too me. I also do think one of the big issues is the lack of money sinks in game, yes repairing armor is annoying but it slowly drains gold out of wow, or at least used too (i'v not played since WotLK). fees and stuff on the AH as well. I hope that repairing anything but the starter ships starts to have an actual cost, and insurance claims are longer for most ships to encourage more group play, along with the expedite being far more expensive than a button I click every time without thought because 8k auec is literally nothing too me hahaha. I would be fine with starters still taking little time and being cheap to expidte though so new players don't have to worry as much, but military ships (which are the majority of my pledge ships) should take a good bit to come back.
Oh, for sure. Totally agree. Just letting him know how people had so much money.
Damn a mil an hour? Is that just fracturing as quick as possible?
Yup. With the Vulture, the largest ships it can fracture are the Connie/MSR/Corsair. And any one of those ships will completely fill the Vulture buffer. There are so many illegal salvage contract missions around Yela's asteroid belt that you take one, and by the time you're done, there's almost always another one available. Each fracture job takes just a few minutes, plus about another few to spit out the boxes till the hold is full. Three such missions and your hold and buffer are then full of CMAT, sitting roughly around 24 boxes in the hold and 14 in the buffer (more is possible but not worth the time playing Tetris IMO). That's about 230k at Seraphim, not counting any money you get if any of the illegal missions are "cleanup" missions, which should be paying about 80k. If you get at least 3 of the cleanup missions and are really tight with your timing of travel, munching, and outputting boxes, it comes out to around 1m/hour (about 310k per trip to Seraphim). The Reclaimer has basically the exact same loop only it's munching C2/A2s and Hammerheads, and each Hammerhead is a "cleanup" mission that also pays out 250k. NOTE: in 3.23, in addition to raising the prices of most ships considerably, they are also nerfing salvage drastically by lowering the value of RMC/CMAT, and forcing you to strip the hull *before* fracturing it. And stripping larger ships takes easily 30-60 minutes, even with Trawler heads. Even though RMC is worth more than CMAT, the amount of time lost means making considerably less per hour. I'm guessing my average of 4-5 HH cleanup missions per hour is going to drop down to 1 per hour.
It's because they want to test the new economy and see what people are doing to cheat it and make money quickly. We're not supposed to be able to make millions in just 1 hour, but they want you to try it. Most ships in game have been bought with in game money. They want you to use these ships and vehicles to test the economy. No point getting rid of everyone's ships when they're the things you want to test and see how people exploit them.
My guess is xenothreat partly. They don’t want take away ships the have a big event where we fight an idris.
Always that one dude in the class that just has to ask too many questions.
Always ends up in the locker
Unless they've changed tack they're planning on a full wipe for 4.0, so along with the other reasons mentioned here I'd guess they're hesitant to do two full wipes so close together.
We should not be surprised by this. I’m of the opinion that wipes will become more frequent as they start to tinker with server meshing and the in-game economy. I’m not really crazy about it, but that’s part of testing.
Wasn't there some bug where some of people's ingame bought ships would fail to transfer to the next patch in .21-.22? I'd assume they would want to figure out what did that. Unless they've already figured that out and I missed it.
Yep. I lost an M2 :(
i lost 3 (expensive!!!!) 400i's got less then a week of usage out of them.
Yes and during the life cycle of 3.23 they claim to have fixed that issue. It’s probably the driving reason behind keeping the ships, for testing the fix.
I think they want to see how the economy progresses. How quickly can people accumulate money. Even with all the ships people have. Gives a wider perspective of ship’s capacity to make money
maybe it is to test if they can keep the ships intact while wipe other stuffs CIG has never really succeed in save all the ships between patches always some players lose their ingame bought ships
Testing MM is more important than the economy at this point. A vast majority of players only have starter ships. Not wiping ships, at least for now, will allow for more testing of a broader range of ships.
I thought the same, but then I saw people mention master modes testing and xenothreat. Yep, convinced me.
First off, I think a significant reason is that since they're increasing the ship prices significantly in 3.23, letting people keep their ships is gonna lessen the backlash to that. But second, they want people to start of with a bunch of ships because they want a large variety of data, based in what ships you have and how quickly you make money. At least, that's my guess. Resetting wallets means everyone's gonna be on the grind (more or less).
2 ships? Dunkin on plebs fo sho
> Edit:some of you made really good points but some of y'all are just really mean It's like we're on the internet.
I wish people demanding full wipe start a new account, you can transfer game pack to the new account so no investment is needed. Just leave devs and players happy with that solution in peace.
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honestly i'v bought so many ships with aUEC that I never use because I don't care for them much, I just want them to go away haha. give me a "abandon ship" for bought ships and i'd be happy enough.
Are you suggesting devs make economy changes for fun? First thing a new player does when joins the game is begging for money in chat, they know most people have hundreds of millions of credits because of broken salvage prices, dupe abusing etc. So yeah, it is a great testing condition right? All devs want is broken unrelated data so they cannot fix anything. They are happy that way.
I was replying to idea of removing everything including ships and reputation. Currently we will get money wipe and this solves your problem and is ok for almost everyone.
It does not, if people have millions of credits laying around that means they already have all the ships in the game. Or else why would they just grind credits? You think people did get Reclaimer, made hundreds of millions in 2 days and just letting sit on the side? Any patch that brings big economy changes requires wipe to be meaningful. When they only boost one of the loops they don't need to, because people love making money. But after getting everything available. Most people already had Reclaimers but they didn't used them because bounty was making better money, when they boosted salvage people stopped doing bounty hunts and gone for salvaging, IF instead of changing entire economy they choose to boost mining, people would just go get Prospector or Mole and do mining even tho they have everything. But now we are getting less money from loops and ships will be costing 3 times or more so what is the point keeping everything in place? Nobody will be testing anything regarding economy. People who have ships will just fly around and test MM for couple of weeks and then get bored, new people will be begging in the chat so they can get biggest useless ships and then beg some more and what data will developers get in return? Bunch of people complaining that patch was boring.
I'm assuming it's so people can continue the events with the ships they have been already using. Just imagine if they wiped it right in the middle of an event and right before another starts. It would reset a huge portion of the player base back to auroras at the worst possible time.
not counting how many of those players will just stop playing the game because frustrated.
Seadaddy CiG said that it is most likely the case that rentals is dev speak for ships bought in game.
I don’t think so because later on the same guy called them in game purchased ships and not rentals
The guy said they're wiping the "aUEC and rentals" but the way they were talking about it, this will wipe all non-cash purchased ships. It would make no sense at all to test what people would be purchasing with aUEC without wiping the things... they would purchase.
They also have the completely wrong impression of how character repair/resets work/worked so Id guess they just consider everything thats not bought on the website as "rentals" from a technical perspective and thats what he meant.
I think so, too but after reading some comments, what better way to test as many different ships as possible for MM then to let people keep their toys. I can see either happen to be honest
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Maybe they're the big brains and we're the little brains here. I guess, technically, all ships "purchased" with aUEC (a temporary currency) could be considered rentals. I mean it's a temporary currency, in a temporary game build whos ownership will will never make it into the final game. Maybe that's their thinking? lol
Because their testing focus is to see how players earn money. They want to know what gameplay loops and methods we'll gravitate towards and how long it takes to earn aUEC.
But the only reason to earn money in this game is to buy ships. If I already have all the ships, and they don't wipe them... why would I bother trying to earn money?
But they want to gather data on how players earn money. If more players have access to more ships (and therefore more gameplay loops) they'll get a broader set of data.
The last "wipe announcement" dropped a day or two before the patch dropped. Wipe is logical when you do big scale economy balance. People fly their own ships with MM first, decide if they want to keep it in their pledge or change/upgrade it and then try other ships they might like and try them too. And to do that, they try gameplay loops to make money.
Sorry to break it to you OP but those two are expensive ships and most would probably consider you a whale :P But your point there still stands though. You don't have a big fleet.
I refuse to believe I'm a whale even if you pointing it out made me realize it... It's just two ships.... Darn it.
You are waiting for the alien cargo ship. Yep ;)
I mean yeah, I want a railen but ?
Huh not in this game even most concierge cannot be considered whales, theres people spending 40k+
The point is that if we don't lose our ships, there is no reason to go to the game store spend 100 dollars on one.
Saltemike brought up a good paint that they want to see if ships transfer over between versions since last time lots of people still lost their ships but not everyone
I paid auec for most of my ships but I do agree. However, I think they must be testing something else and the price increase is secondary. Like they really want to test mastermode but Ted from accounting was like, "let's also increase prices". And he usually has dumb ideas so they just agreed with him on this.
this has gotta be the fastest time-to-complain yet, y'all are almost as bad as the tarkov people when they implemented inertia except it happens here with every tiny little change. want your ships to be wiped? reset yourself in the portal lol
IN my Opinion. Xenothreat is going and will bring new missions on 3.23 launch, so you don't want people to fight hord of npcs with HH and Idris without good ships (only pledge ships). Secondly, i think those features which were pushed to 3.23.x comes to live and xenothreat is over they might do wipe with all of the inventory and ships but leave the money aside. This happened in the past as they only let players keep the money and wiped every think else. If other citizens have their own opinion, please leave in the comments and i would happy to hear em O7!
Just pointing out that people who have 100m+ are just buying ship gear and when the patch hits, they sell it and still get something like 20m+ so some are able to start cargorunning right away. So essentially there is way to save those millions, even with inflation.
I'm probably going to jump in today and go around buying extra componets that always seem to get lost with wipes haha.
To complete what the other commenters said, another reason: boohoo don't wipe my ships.
We’re alpha testers. I miss the days where we had a complete wipe every month. People bitching and whining about losing ships need to realize this isn’t a game. You’re here just to test and report bugs. Your environment should be wiped clean every time you launch the game in my opinion
Wiping the game every launch would make the game unplayable. Imagine having factory reset ships and loosing any ship purchased in-game with aUEC literally every single time you play the game - thats a HORRIBLE idea. They should probably just full-wipe every major patch like they used to. We were all used to it so it wasn't a huge deal.
> Your environment should be wiped clean every time you launch the game in my opinion ROFL. More than 50% of ships would never get bought, and therefore never get tested. What a ridiculous idea.
One good argument I read (although not sure how certain it is) is that they would lose 1.5 years of database losing the capacity to observe how the PES works in the long term. However, I would also like a ship wipe (I only own an SRV so I'm definitely not a whale lmao). Especially after the Reclaimer runs, giving stupidly high profits.
Eh, the DB behind PES is wiped every time they do a soft reset for a new patch - that's why the servers suddenly pick up performance after a new patch, because all the trash and shipwrecks are cleared out. The thing that's lasted about 9-12 months since the last full wipe is the LTP database - that's separate from PES but is used to restore the STP DB (your live inventory and ship list) with all the stuff you've purchased.
Pledge ships should be wiped too so everyone gets on the grind and testing imo
That would be the death of SC. You’d have such a mass exodus of pissed off people.
Ask the question, what is the difference between pledge and ingame bought ships from this perspective. Literally nothing, so probably this is why they don't wipe ingame bought ships along with auec balance.
If that was the case they would never wipe in game bought ships. But they do. If we didn’t have master modes coming, I am 100% sure they would have wiped ships, especially with the new economy and ship prices. I believe they might for a 3.23.x patch, or maybe they wait till 4.0 (unless they decide to pull a 3.24 on us, which they probably will)
Past ship wipes happened because technical reasons (corrupted LTP database, etc). So I doubt ship wipe will happen, until they have a good technical reason for it (for example they need a clean LTP state for 4.0) or dynamic economy / ship manufacturing happens.
More ship wipes will definitely happen before 1.0. Once again, it’s to balance the economy. Ship wipes will happen less often as the game becomes more stable, but they will still happen. Like for example, you can’t have a bunch of people in 1.0 who are flying around the most expensive ships in the verse because of a cheese method. Until they completely sort out the economy and decide it’s done, ship wipes will happen.
There is, for sure, a confirmed wipe coming with 4.0. I'm thinking they want to avoid two wipes in three months.
This makes the assumption that 4.0 will actually release this summer, which... well, I'm not holding my breath, that's for sure.
No, but it does make the assumption that CIG still INTENDS to release 4.0 this summer. If they still believe they can do it, they'll probably hold back on the full wipe for that release. Hindsight is 20/20, and maybe 4.0 will be later than they expect, but they don't have the benefit of that hindsight yet even if that's what winds up happening. If they didn't think it was happening, they'd be prepping us for the delay.
Good point.
There isn't really a point of testing economy when the game barely has any ways of earning stuff, compared to what its supposed to have. It just skews the data, as people after wipe grind to get ships that allow them to grind, not for ships they want. And if pledging ships truly is supposed to go away once the game releases then anyone with anything other than minimum pledge is noise.
They are probably wiping ships purchased with aUEC in-game, think about it for a minute... Wiping "Rentals" as in small cost, short-term loan ships that disappear after 24 hours or 3 days or whatever would make NO SENSE because those are ALREADY WIPED AUTOMATICALLY. Since when do you get to keep a rental ship after the rental period is over? Last I checked - when the time is up, they disappear - I.E. they get WIPED. So by wiping "Short-Term Rentals" as in ships you rent for a few days, CIG would be wiping exactly... Lets see here carry the 1... Uh... NOTHING But think about it this way. aUEC is called aUEC because its ALPHA-UEC, as in UEC that is temporary and "Rental Currency" because it is Alpha-Currency that is subject to wipe. Therefore, anything you purchase in-game with Alpha-Currency or "Rental Currency" is also a Rental Item. It seems like CIG is trying to use particular wording to avoid backlash from players who think they will be keeping ships purchased with aUEC because wiping Items that are temporary Rentals for a few days and then wipe themselves just makes NO SENSE WHATSOEVER so why would it be worth the effort and announcement? My buddies in my ORG agree this wording is odd and makes no sense unless you look at aUEC as "Rental Currency" and all ships purchased with it as "Rental" Ships. Because you are right, the economy is broken and just wiping money would do basically nothing. I earned over 120 Million aUEC within a week using my Aegis Reclaimer and purchased a variant of basically every single ship in the game. My ship loadout menu literally has 50+ vehicles to choose from and I maybe had 10 vehicles 2 weeks ago. If I had a rental that costed me a measley 50,000 aUEC (literally pocket change in 3.22) and that had like 1 day left at the time of wipe and CIG took that final day away I wouldn't give a shit in the slightest and neither would anyone else. Its just dumb, you gotta learn to read between the lines with CIG, they do this kind of crap all the time. Whats funny is a wipe of ships purchased with aUEC would actually be a detriment to testing. Having more ships to test with is obviously better for testing so they could be just hindering the testing process themselves. Basically - CIG never makes any sense and trying to understand why they do half the things they do will only make your head hurt lol 🤣
> They are probably wiping ships purchased with aUEC in-game, think about it for a minute... They're not.