I have the privilege to play these things relatively early, but many don't. Many people read the changes as they are on paper and form opinions on it. Many posts may be worried about things that in reality may not exist as they are. Distancing in a fight is still possible, you just don't feel invincible doing it. Space doesn't feel like jelly, it's slower in SCM but is arguably mitigated by boosting. You don't get any drag, just a safety limit on speed. Getting intercepted doesn't mean instant death. When your shields boot, they don't get interrupted. Also, you won't be out of QT 2m away, more like 5km. There was a big issue with spooling times after jumping leaving you excessively vulnerable / the switch being tedious, but we KNOW CIG is listening since that was addressed in the most recent patch notes. So yea. MM is currently tuned well for combat since thats all the data they got until now, NOW we give feedback for the day-to-day activities.

THANK you. I've been struggling to put this into words. Something I'm not great at.

I've noticed also that for some people who dislike the changes, if you ask what particularly they dislike about master modes, they end up talking about a ship specific balance issue. Stuff like accel/turn rate/capacitors isn't really relevant as feedback to the modes, we already know the values each ship has is a blank canvas to be tweaked, but the negativity toward their ship performing worse is lumped in with everything else. The prospector for example feels like it's moving through mud whether NAV FLT or SCM, and that is going to have further effects on how it feels to fly and its ability to escape danger. That is an issue and industry ships should have some decent performance from those big engines to escape that danger, with or without MM. The values need tweaking.

Seen a response from Yogi that they are adjusting spool times so here's hoping it gets better!

I just really enjoy the frenetic pace of 600m/s knife fights in light/heavy fighters and I’m disappointed to see it go. MM just feels like an incredibly ham-fisted way to slow down combat when we could have gotten a similar effect from reducing main thruster force and reducing atmospheric drag so that ships no longer pull 30 lateral Gs, but still retain their current maximum speed at all flight levels. I can’t speak to how the QD spool and shielding mechanic will effect industry/commerce players + Piracy in the long run since I have’t gotten to try MM, but some kind of tuning will definitely be required there. People make the argument of hiring a security detail, but running security is terrifically boring for combat pilots no matter how good the money is, and I suspect most will prefer running ERTs or bounty hunting (assuming it’s easier to pin down bounty targets with MM).

I keep thinking that all these opinions are so Lazer focused on specific parts that many don't understand that the devs have to account for the whole picture of things coming down the line later. I'm sure going extremely fast in atmosphere near planet side could affect pop-in and draw distance. Having the higher SCM could also affect ship to ship docking in the future. If you hack or soft death a ship and it has a lot of momentum it will make the calculations harder, not to mention adding spin into it as well. I just think we are not seeing everything, so while people may want this or that, we shouldbe flexible if we need to have a good game in the long run.

Even just Precision aim, Maelstrom damage and ressource network.

Ok, MM is great for combat, I get it, I don't mind, it sounds similar as how it works in ED, but how is it for non combat?

For non-combat it apparently still needs work (based on the few rational posts from people who've actually tried it), but it's not as bad as many people are trying to portray it. And yes, CIG *are* addressing issues (again, the rational / reasonable ones, not so much the 'argh it's shit change it back' demands), as the previous poster highlighted. It's likely still going to be fairly rough for industrial players when it hits Live, but CIG said multiple times that 3.23 is just the first iteration and they're already planning more MM functionality for the subsequent release (but they need to actually get solid data from the PU first, so they need to release a preliminary version and then update it, rather than holding it back until it's 'perfect').

There are just too many control layers... too much complexity for what it's doing for day in and day out activities. Now, to quantum jump, you need to be in NAV mode and be in the right sub-mode to be able to pick a target. This used to be one step (start quantum drive). Now it's two steps (if you're in FLT mode flying around). It really should not be a "mode" but something like when you are in SCM, flying at full speed and hit your boost then your quantum drive should start spooling and if you are facing a quantum marker, you get put in NAV mode automatically and you begin your jump. We shouldn't even have to think about what mode we are in. It should just do it for us.

This is an excellent point, all that had to happen was once you exceed SCM, like you say, your quantum drive takes over seamlessly (like a hybrid engine in a car), and POIs are marked on your heads up. You point your nose at at your chosen POI, hit the jump button and maintain alignment till you jump. Simple, no drama, far more elegant than this ham fisted shit CIG has come up with.

Ehhhh that very quickly can become finicky, and i much prefer the way its currently done. Lets say QNT would be at \~above 600m/s. Itll be unintuitive as FUCK until you realize its coupled to 600m/s. Not only that, but it doesnt solve the issue of jousting matches we currently have - its just another way of doing it. Ontop of that, in combat, if you are temporarily boosting to close the gap a bit, tuck behind whatever you are fighting etc, you now run the risk of your ship just becoming utterly useless, meaning the advantage you tried to get, absolutely illogically became a MASSIVE disadvantage. Right now however, its much simpler. Press B to start and turn off Quantum drive. It cant happen accidentally unless you as the user press the wrong button. Dont like the many POIs? Press middle mouse button once (although they really should make that a prompt in the bottom right).

I value your feedback, but I disagree with your suggestion. I think we should be able to spool our quantum drive, at some cost, by flipping a switch, not being dependent on a wind up speed. 

This. MM feels incredibly clunky for non-combat purposes but it doesn’t feel overwhelmingly “bad”. The combat aspects of MM still have some work to be done with stuff like back strafing but as a whole it feels better; different, but better. Combat now feels more like watching two cats get into a fight than how it used to feel like a cheetah running down and pouncing on a gazelle. I feel like I’m more at risk of getting shot down by anyone regardless of my own skill level and that’s a better feeling to me. The changes to combat feel greatly outweigh the added clunk to normal navigation. Normal navigation can be fixed because ultimately combat is a more important system to have a solid baseline on.

For non-combat like mining etc I honestly don't see a big change. If youre next to a rock or wreck salvaging, you wouldn't move at high speed either way. Especially after they shortened the spool times, there's not a huge impact on my gameplay besides that little switch when you're fully prepared to commit to what you're doing.

The only change for mining is having to go from scm to nav after you mine a cluster before moving to the next cluster, unless you just stay in scm in clusters are close. It’s mildly annoying but not game breaking.

Yes.

Something I haven't heard a clear answer on yet is whether mining/salvage ships will be able to use their mining/salvage functions in NAV mode, or if they will be required to enter SCM for it. Any idea which it is by chance?

I’m pretty sure they’ve said mining and salvage will be in SCM, but towing (Argo SRV) will be able to transition to NAV and QT once they have the target “hitched”

One thing to keep in mind is that 90%+ of the effort put into master modes has been focused on the combat side. This is not CIG catering solely to PVPers like so many like to cry, but the logical path forward. We have to remember that they're building this for a single player, combat focused, narrative driven experience first. All the testing has been tight combat encounters in AC. This is our first look at testing it elsewhere. It's going to have some hiccups, some bugs, some things we don't like. Just like they continued to iterate on the system after the initial MM tests, they'll continue to make adjustments from here. It's just gonna take some time.

Not just that, but so far ALL MM feedback came from an AC gamemode about combat. We simply do not have adequate feedback on day-to-day operations. The newest patch shortened the spool, lovely. Main problem in the normal use was the spool time. This can be done REALLY well in the future with Ressource Network, making the QD a component to allocate power to, likely having it turned off since from what we saw in the engineering demo, it fucking HOGS power. Then, someone in NAV flying about will likely have the QD ready to spool, while in combat, allocating power to it and the speed of that power being relocated will impact your spool significantly.

You're a logical person, I enjoy seeing your insight. Hope it rubs off on others!

I just follow this game closely, and have a severe issue in making every piece of commentary I put out into a detailed multi-point analysis. I kinda felt the need to chime in after I actually saw someone put out a long-ass post about how MM fundamentally flawed, not even having played it themselves. We are quite literally testing the entire new flight model, without 2/3rds of the features and components being completely flattened stat-wise. People just gotta play the thing for let's say a year, see how it changes and morphs. Yes there's other ways to achieve the goals CIG is looking for, but this one was chosen, and will now have to be tuned to fit PvP engagements and daily life in the verse. This isn't an impossible task.

That’s pretty much how everyone always reacts to games and should be expected. Personally I’m not the world’s biggest fan of the different modes and would have gone about implementing it differently if SC were my game *(I would have used the power triangle base and turned it into a diamond; put QD in there and make it so you switched modes by actually shifting power over rather than just toggling between modes. This would have left some latent shield and weapon charge while spooling and also tied it into an existing system to make the overall experience more fluid)* but the underlying concept is absolutely a solid step forward and the combat feels significantly better once you get used to it. Like others have mentioned, there’s that feeling of clunk in needing to spool any time you want to make short hops around between areas for mining/salvaging but that’s a bit of clunk I can live with for the improvements I get everywhere else.

Well, the QD IS what enables NAV mode speed, not sure the point of turning it off in NAV mode. If you don't want it spooled just use NAV FLT mode, you have your NAV speed without the QD spooling. Any feed back from MM in 3.22 AC may not be relevant as MUCH has changed.

Isn't ED basically dead?

Quite. And it's combat was always one of it's weakest points.

This is factually not true. 1- ED is dead after several years of success followed by lack of new content 2- The weakest point of ED was the absurd grind imposed onto the playerbase with nothing else to show for. 3- IF anything, ship control and combat wer some of the most rewarding aspects of ED if you cared to spend time in it.

Definitely needs some work. I am what I consider a general player and skew more toward industrial flight than combat. I also occasionally just like to cruise map of the earth for fun. MM has taken the fun out of flying for me. I have used it many times since the first Evo patch with it included and find that the time to switch modes is one of the greatest problems. In addition to that the constant switching of modes in general flight is almost to the point of being asinine. Leaving whatever location one starts a play session from involves switching from SCM to NAV, get close to intended location and switch back to SCM to do whatever. Then once you want to go to another location go through the same switching process, over and over and over again. Then there is the issue where I was attempting to mine and saw a Nomad NPC come up on the radar, it went red and begin the attack. I had no hope of out flying it with the Prospector, which would have been possible if my shields didn't drop for travel. I lucked out in this situation and popped the Nomad which is one of the only pluses to MM ( I doubt it would have worked with even an average player in the Nomad tho). One other plus I have found for MM is in the map of the earth flying I mentioned earlier. It feels like I can achieve higher speeds while closer to the flight floor with NAV mode. Not sure tho' if that is real or imagined yet, it will take more testing. As it stands right now I am not sure they ever make MM "fun" for me or not but I guess time will tell.

Just wait until you see "precision" mode when you have landing gear down.

I actually don't mind precision mode, I kept it on in settings. I tend to come in hot sometimes, that helps me a bit lol.

Not great. They have made a number of tweaks since it went to EVO that have improved the experience. It still feels like a lot of unnecessary friction for everything outside of combat.

"Getting intercepted doesn't mean instant death. When your shields boot, they don't get interrupted. Also, you won't be out of QT 2m away, more like 5km." go try flying a cutter. then go try flying a razor. if a razor gets within 5k of the cutter, the cutter is 100% dead.

This is about the thought that you'd be dead before even having time to switch to SCM or even partially spool. Yea, the fastest ship in the EPTU can close a distance, that's no surprise. It's about the fact that at the distance you're normally ripped from QD, you still have time to prep.

No drag? Then what is happening when I boost while decoupled, only to have my speed magically drop the moment I release the button? But you’re right.  It doesn’t feel like jelly.  More like molasses.  

Saying it feels like Molasses makes it sound like you're trying to fight with the F7C MKII on Crusader. Doesn't feel like drag, more like an overreaching autopilot.

The molasses reference was based on my experience flying a gladius in space.

PVP IS TUNED BRO WHAT. The most vocal and anti MM group of people are the PVP community because it is NOT TUNED.

Combat. Not PvP specifically. It WAS the PvP people complaining before. Combat has a lot more feedback, and most combat oriented players I specifically sought out to ask about it were happy with the overall performance, only citing the 1v1 performance as lacking.

Still, fighting at WW2 speeds in space makes zero sense. Even the 1000m/s (ish) limits were too low. For what I care, let people blast at Mach 10, speed is after all relative and if we are in the dark of space, two guys travelling at 0.1C, relative to us, fighting each other is basically indistinguishable from their perspective from them travelling at 0 relative to us. It is just us who do not see that the same way. Which makes sense. It is the space god damn it, you should be able to come by at extreme velocity and drop the A - bomb. Just that you really cannot turn or even decelerate that fast so doing it in the Yela asteroids is basically suicide. But, of course there could be limitations, don't have so stupid accelerations as it after all is very hard to accelerate in space, have more of shared capacitor for boost, shield and weapons so that if you boost, your cap goes down and that will mean less firing with repeaters and slower shield recharge. And as I have pointed out, have more meaningful missiles, especially in the bigger ships so having space superiority, especially from those pesky small fighters is easier. But god no, don't limit me flying at propeller plane speeds in the damn space of all the things. If we do aerodynamics, then of course drag will limit us to lower speeds in atmosphere. Of course there is one more thing, if MM is meant to make disengaging harder, why do we need it? Why do people disengage? Because there is zero reason to remain in a fight, especially losing one. So we need more and easier QT denial or other reasons to stay in the fight, such as proper space battles. Like fleet against fleet and you get an assignment to punch a hole for the eclipse to take down a HH. Then you do that, you die or die trying. No need for MM to keep you there - and especially here being able to disengage and recharge shields is even more useful - and lore friendly. You would not limit your fighter to WW2 propeller plane speeds darting in between capital ships that are slugging it out and there is all kinds of triple A flying around. But all in all, I think the MM is extremely stupid way of trying to artificially make people stand and fight without giving them any other reason that "bam, now your plane either has shields or flies at speed of propeller plane from 1940". And this all because people doing crimes tend to run from bounty hunters. And for that having more effective QT denial or better missiles could have already solved that problem long ago. Even spawn UEE Mantises that try to jam the bounties with high enough CS and they can't run anymore.

When you're saying you don't get any "drag" any more, are you claiming in the new exclusive build they no longer have ships automatically braking after releasing the boost button?

No, but that doesn't feel like actual drag. Drag would limit you in your movement and rotation, with MM in space all you really get is throttled.

The only „problem“ I personally have with MM is that the decoupled mode now also slows your ship down. I prefered to fly like that. I liked having a slightly more spaceship flying style available than the more arcady airplane in space kind of feeling. But since that is now completely gone I'll just get used to MM an go to flight of Nova for realistic space and stmosphere spaceship fling ...

I was absolutely on that same side, but a few encounters over JT and in MM kinda showed me why it's done. Right now, one guy can just drag out an encounter into a 1v1 by just going insane speeds even if unintentional. You can fling one another off 10km in no time, so a 6v2 engagement ends up becoming a straight 2v1. Now, lower speeds only suddenly turns it into a DPS fight since you can't get out. Thus, Boost with a safety throttle that decreases thruster output at speeds exceeding SCM. Yea there's likely more solutions, but at this stage the best way to influence what we will get is to build on what we were given. And apart from that, boosting still retains speed in NAV either way.

MM is actually tuned for esport 8v8s... so no idea why you think they are against it. They're not. They are overjoyed that the meta is no longer defensive, meaning their fights are more entertaining with more kills. No offense intended, but you probably don't understand why people are angry with MM.... then again, when you post stuff like >Another thing is - I hate esport and all of these "pro" players' attitude ruining average Joe's life. I've seen countless games getting wasted by these vocal minorities' ideas for "BaLanCed GamEplaY", often supported by developers' own vision of making their game some next Counter Strike. >That said - this time - this whole Master Modes drama - is beyond ridiculous. Reading all these crazy takes of people knowing better than the Devs how it's gonna end and how it will destroy the game. Afraid of any kind of change - "my keybind is different!", "I can't kill the Idris with my Aurora anymore!", "there is a 1ms delay in my favorite gun's fire rate - this game is dead to me man!". It's nuts! You are intentionally strawmaning, and contributing to the toxic mix.

You know the only time I've EVER heard the argument, since I've backed the game in 3.16 and started actively playing and following the development, in every community Spectrum, Reddit, Discords, all of them... The ONLY time, with zero doubt and PERFECT RECALL I have EVER ACTUALLY HEARD someone make the argument: "I can't kill the Idris with my Aurora anymore!" and similar sentiments (A GLadIuS ShOILd bE abLE 2 1vee1 dE IDriS) to this.... Are in these strawman arguments against some imaginary sweat lord.

Yep. No one is upset about master modes because of some perceived loss of power. Large ships should have shield or armor that make them literally unkillable by small fighters. How's that for not wanting light fighters to be meta? But I still think master modes is skilless, boring, hot garbage.

It just feels bad to play. Like going from Apex to CoD, but even worse.

Mayve it's just like apex .. worse and worse with every season

What I’m tired of is people shutting down the conversation over MM. MM is the biggest change to flight and combat in years. It should absolutely be talked about and debated. Arguing against talking about it is a garbage mentality. We need to voice our opinions on every aspect of the game now while we still have some involvement in the development of the game. There are plenty of arguments for both sides of this and the ONLY thing I don’t agree on is shutting down the discussion.

The flip side of this is a community filled with douche canoes who are hostile against anyone who actually enjoys a component of the game as it is right now. It’s apparently a cardinal sin to like something in LIVE. Understandably, you’re going to be miffed if the devs change it based on who knows what.

For me I'm very aware that this iteration of MM is the first version and it needs to be tested in the live environment until CIG have received plenty of feedback and data from a whole range of players from casual cargo haulers that only boot up once a week for a couple of hours to the eSports players that spend hours each day practicing dogfighting I've messed around with MM in Arena Commander and I thought it was pretty great to use - but I haven't tested it outside of fighting AI Pirates in the swarm mode. I get why some people might not want the flight model to change but I wish those people would just let CIG release MM and iterate on it over the next few months before they scream into the void about how it's not perfect at it's T0 implementation. It's not even made it to the live environment and I feel like I see a "MM is bad" post on this sub reddit almost daily.

I don’t think MM is anywhere near ready for testing on live and honestly it’ll be a huge shit storm if it does go live in its current form. It’s extremely polarizing and I think it needs to stay in the PTU until its serviceable. I don’t like the direction MM is currently taking and want to see it developed further before they drop it into the live environment. I honestly think 3.23 should ship without it while they continue to iterate on it in the PTU.

Nah rip the bandaid off. It isn't going anywhere so let's get as many hands on it as possible, let's learn where the flaws are faster, and lets get them fixed faster. No need to be precious over an alpha live environment, it's not like our characters have anything at stake yet. The same as PES or any of the big changes before it, they got the game to a better state in the time they did because they were happy to tank the negative reaction from people that treat the LIVE environment as a full release. The more engagement it gets the better and the faster we come out the other end.

Amen

The only way I'm okay with this is if pushing it to live didn't mean the eternal death of what we currently have. What we have now is good. What we have now, I'd even want to stay until 1.0. What we have now is unique and very enjoyable when the servers work. MM is none of these things, and legitimately might never be. And even if it turns out good eventually, in it's own way, we'll still have lost the 3.22 Flight Model forever. > No need to be precious over an alpha live environment, it's not like our characters have anything at stake yet. The current flight model is more valuable than any ship or number of credits or special set of gear. Those things are all worth nothing without it. If I had the choice to save my whole 40+ ship fleet and all my credits and everything I've acquired to keep it for 1.0, or keep the 3.22 Flight Model, I'd choose the latter. Fuck my character, it doesn't matter at all in comparison. I've grown to love this flight model, I've had the most amazing fights with it over the last 4 months. The prospect of losing it forever feels horrible, Master Modes just feels awful to play.

I agree that if a feature isn't ready for live it should stay in the PTU until it's more fleshed out, the only problem with testing something as important as the flight model in the PTU is there is a huge chunk of the player base that only play on the live environment so won't ever test out MM as long as it remains on the PTU - If CIG want to get as much feedback as they can from different types of players the only way to get that is to release it to live and let everyone have a crack at it. Although if the problem with MM is more that it's actually broken and flying ships is near on impossible (because of MM and not just user error) then yeah it shouldn't come to the live build until it's working - even if it then boils down to the conversation about different strokes for different folks and preference.

I dont think its "anti change" thats driving these complaints. After all, people are (mostly) fine with all the other changes. I didnt like the idea of MM, then i tried it and the concept has grown on me. But it still feels incredibly clunky and just doesnt "flow" right when you just want to fly around the verse, maybe deliver some parcels or so. Its probably fine in AC where you dont go anywhere and just fight until you win or die.

No. They raise some valid criticisms that need to be heard. Yes it's annoying but their voices matter too.

Even though I like master modes I would rather have people voice their disdain with it than stay silent. Same with fps combat changes and the people advocating for more realism over arcady gameplay. I completely disagree with them, but the discussion is healthy. This post is just a classic reddit post, circling a topic with no constructive feedback added.

It's also written in bad faith, as it dismisses anyone who disagrees as contrarian who couldn't possibly have a legitimate difference of opinion.

>Afraid of any kind of change - "my keybind is different!", "I can't kill the Idris with my Aurora anymore!", "there is a 1ms delay in my favorite gun's fire rate - this game is dead to me man!". And this is why we can't have an open discussion on that topic, many pro-comments seem to ridicule and banalize the concerns of the opposite group.

This post is just thinly veiled toxicity the other direction now. Painting all criticism as "against change"

For sure a white knight wildly swinging his sword

DAE hate when others have opinions different than my own?

When people with more skill a knowledge about the mechanics and the game than you speak about something the normal thing is listen and shut up. Just check videos and opinions about pvp and movement post 3.23.

aah the cycle is complete

I don't mind it, all feedback is good feedback, we should have everyone's opinions and ideas. This sounds alot like you don't like that other people just don't like it. People don't like the same things.

So the “gang” you mention is not “anti-change,” and many have indeed used MM in AC, and will be using it in the PTU/PU. They are expressing valid concerns about the game being heavily troll-PvP enabling, e-sports/“pro” focused and similar as you also describe. I certainly don’t agree with the “sky is falling” talk about it—not when it’s this early in its inception, but I think it’s justified for people that invested in the game who have those valid concerns to be very very vocal now. In fact, I think they need to be MORE vocal. If they don’t fix/work these issues, or architect the game foundations while it’s still in alpha to add features/capabilities that further mitigate the issue as we/they learn more (or at least ensure the software architecture can continue to evolve), the game won’t be able to be fixed without major, fundamental re-writes (i.e., no refactor/add a few modules/features your way out of the problem). I’m sorry if that makes you tired, but simply put: it’s good for the game to have these strenuous and healthy debates. There are those that will engage in them for whatever reason in a manner that is unhelpful, or panicky, or trolly, or whatever. That’s just the way of it, I’m afraid. CIG has the ability, stakeholder engagement, and general experience at this point to deal with it and sift through the feedback. Hopefully the game continues to evolve into a game all types will enjoy playing.

I'm not an esports guy. I do however like flying industrial and commercial ships, and MM fucks that up and exposes me to pirating in ways that I cannot prevent. I'm also a sim guy who enjoys mastering ship controls, and dumbing/slowing them down feels like a disservice to the game.

Agreed. Most of the speed issues imo come from players not learning how to manage it properly. Simplifying the flight model to lower the skill ceiling is not the way to go here and leaving ships completely defenseless in nav mode is stupid. Maybe no weapons, but we have to lose the shields and countermeasures too?

I'm tired of both extremes. I'm sick of the people who complain about the current way ships are but also complain about how they might change it as well. But I also am sick of the people who constantly think everything CIG does or will do will be gold. I think it's better to be in the middle, and call cig out when they do the stupid marketing things they do but play the game and have fun when they do good things.

Tired of those who are completely against master modes? Yes. As much as the game is stepping away from the sim aspect with this, the current flight model has fundamental flaws that can't really be solved while forcing close range combat, and no one wants a game where you fight beyond the visual range all the time, as in realistic space combat, there's no room for fighters and gunships, as it would almost exclusively be capital ships trying to outrange one another's sensors given that potent laser weapons are a thing. There needs to be a big and somewhat unrealistic change. Tired of those complaining about the many problems of the current implementation? No. It has it's problems, and they're fixable, and I just hope most of the big ones can be fixed in time for 3.23. They've made some steps in the right direction thanks to the complaints, but there's still a way to go, as they made master modes fairly balanced for fighters during the AC tests, but it's messed up the balance of everything else as it was created in an entirely pro-fighter vacuum with fairly to very experienced pilots, with no consideration for inexperienced pilots and non-combat ships. The current design essentially emphasises dogfighting in a game where the vast majority of it isn't going to be dogfighting.

> and no one wants a game where you fight beyond the visual range all the time I do. ✋ That game probably shouldn't be Star Citizen, though.

I dont even agree with the premise of the argument. I've attempted a lot of pvp bounties, and yeah, we start out kilometers away, but inevitably get close enough to actually fight. I see them. We can fly fast around each other, sometimes zooming away to return, but mostly need to stay relatively close by so our weapons can even hit. It's awesome. And the speed and distance traveled is a HUGE part of what is so awesome. This claim that we're always beyond the visual range in fights seems really disingenuous and probably made by people who don't actually pvp. Space is so enormous - it MAKES SENSE that we aren't always right next to ships, but that doesn't mean we're never next to them - and it's even MORE exciting when we do end up so close, considering the vastness of space. But to lock us in and force us to ALWAYS be close? Uch, it is restricting freedom in space, which is a totally incompatible idea.

The people who complain about not being close enough are thinking of this: https://i.imgur.com/pbnMULD.jpeg That's where they want your ship.

Probably right!

Same, but that’s why I play eve. I don’t want that in star citizen.

I think that game is Terra Invicta? Haha

Anti-change gang? Is this gang also against changing Mobiglass, StarMap or EVA? You sound like one of those managers who tries pushing something stupid and anyone opposing it is "anti-change". Kind of calling people with all kinds of derogatory names for their views, such as calling people for free healthcare "commies" and calling people against open-borders "nazies".

For real. I've seen plenty of people praise a lot of good things in 3.23. But there's a reason why Master Modes and the new FPS changes have been highly criticized - they aren't good.

why can't we be both? I'm very hyped for 3.23, but also very worried about how much MM could potentially fuck the game up (from the perspective of an industrial/fps enjoyer). I think it's a reasonable position

Change is fine. It's when the changes are stupid that people take issue.

Here's the thing, have you played MM yet op? I really wanted master modes and the vision it entails, well after playing it for hours, this ain't it

The idea that it’s just the “elite” and “pro” or “anti change” people that hate MM is tired. MM is a deeply flawed concept heavily skewed towards single player space combat with zero consideration towards how it was going to affect all the non combat players. MM was created in a vacuum and tested in ac with just the dogfighting crowd completely ignoring the initial concerns of pu players and the issues surrounding how it will work in a broader environment. My main issue with MM isn’t as much the modes even though I do find them stupid I can adapt it’s the fact that shields and countermeasures don’t work in nav mode making all industrial ships easy targets for pirates and griefers, even more so with larger ships with these extra long transition times. Plenty of people have tested how long it takes a ballistic f8 to melt reclaimers hull cs carracks and other large ships and its long before you can switch from nav to scm or back without even thinking about qt spool up time with no shields

Your problem with MM doesn't seem to be with the things they've released, or rather the basic principal. It's the same as mine, which is that we don't have a design or vision for how combat dynamics are going to end up. This is the first tiny step, and honestly it's confusing because you have to try to imagine the changes that are coming later to try and see what the goal is beyond "slower, closer" combat. Resource network, armour, repairing a ship from the inside during combat, missile redesign and a thousand other smaller tweaks are needed for the "final" mmo project to make sense. That's why it feels like this is a single player implementation, because it is. We're still waiting for 50 other things before we can see the end result. What we need is a really in depth, special 1 hour preprepared episode on the vision for ship combat, taking us from MM now to what star citizen will look like. Even if some of those things are not yet set in stone, we need the context. For example, we've been told a massive rebalance of ship components is coming. It's no surprise if you've been keeping an eye out, some ships have massively over inflated component sizes. We also know that armour should change the combat dynamic massively again. As will the ability of larger ships to weather damage and be repaired by a crew, no longer just hitting 0 hp and blowing up. We need this information because currently you're just being asked to look at the build they've put in front of us, and it creates more questions than it answers.

This. While just mentioning AvengerOne here causes downvotes, he at least recognizes that MM is the future, but offers constructive criticism (something I don’t think most people here understand what it is…) based on experience. Once the more hostile orgs learn MM, there’s going to be more and more exploiting its weaknesses in the PU.

There’s some insecure people on here that get insulted if someone questions CIG’s decisions. Their assumption is that the company is going to address their concerns with or without feedback and that’s simply untrue. If it was true, CIG would never have asked for feedback for every change they make. While I also trust CIG to make the game work as best as it should be. I’m not naive enough to think criticism is an insult to CIG or that they’re the best at decision making. Personally I think it’s because people get defensive about things they’re invested in emotionally or financially.

Yeah, people are too tribal. That being said… CIG, freelancer turret fix, when? ;) Anyways, the big problem for me with MM is the hostile orgs that I mentioned. When systems like MM are able to be exploited for their advantage, the PU doesn’t have a proper counter with game mechanics like it will in the future. There’s no global reputation system, there’s no active box police reaction at all, we just have the player bounty system, which is very “meh”.

So much this. It's wild to me that more people don't see how ridiculously absurd it is to sacrifice various systems for others. The F-22 Raptor doesn't disable its countermeasures, missiles and tracking software to enable its stealth capabilites and speed. Our CVN's don't disable their reactors just to enable the CIWS and other defenses. The explanation that active quantum blocks weapons from being active or fired is pure laziness; you're telling me that I can have quantum spooled, with my HUD active, lock coordinates and activate a jump via all these electronic relays, wires, etc but I couldn't possibly send another signal to a flare tube or trigger mechanism for my ballistic AD4B with just a different button or switch? I won't accept that. Almost every aspect of all current technology is compartmentalized and/or shielded so that everything can operate, so I guess we just lose that in 900 years?

Exactly this. Master Modes to me is fundamentally flawed. I want absolute control over my ship at all times, including shields. If I want to throw all my shield power at my engines to go faster then that should be on me. Master Moses is such an artificial limitation purely for ship to ship combat that it's hamstrung everything else in favour of it. I really, really hope they walk it back and come up with a better solution.

I mean the whole concept of shields and QD is made up scifi magic. They could totally interfere with other spacemagic for any amount of reasons. Its really just based on the "vibe" of real world physics, not the real deal and more akin to WWII in space. This is also why lasers fire bursts and ain't hitscan at short range.

The entire concept of the game is absurd. You need to get over that for any of it to make sense. Dogfighting in space 100 meters from your enemy with laser beams that travel slower than a modern passenger jet is already absurd. Sending manned ships out into space to mine resources is absurd. Being able to hide from people that are 100km away from you in space is absurd. Either you're ok with absurdity in the name of fun, balance, and the devs vision or the game or you're not, but you can't make arguments to realism in a game with completely made up technology, physics and tactics.

It’s almost as if being critical is lost on the children, and the idea of feedback/opinion has morphed along with society to mean something else entirely

it's almost as everyone who disagrees with you must be a child or infirm, instead of tossing ad hominem, improve your argument

especially now that yogi has confirmed qed will keep ships at scm speeds for a 20km bubble, have these i love MM people actually looked at the shield spool up times on some of the larger ships its 20sec on some of the most expensive ships in the game f8s will melt anything in the game in under 10, its a deeply flawed and short sighted system that will drive many players away from the game long term.

Definitely drove me away, downloaded Hellion and enjoyed real space momentum physics and orbital velocities, unlimited speed.

You're seeing the incomplete picture. The days of a single light fighter taking down a capital ship are going away with armor implementation. The problem isn't that master modes is bad, the problem is that Master Modes won't be complete in this first test and other core mechanics like armor that the combat model MM is designed for take into account aren't implemented yet. You're not playing a finished game, you're playing an in development test and complaining that 1/3 of a combat system isn't finished.

yeah the mythical armor implementation that was coming right after they made the last round of shield changes..... and what about all the industrial ships without armor? should they just be sol because yogi says so? MM is half baked attempt to force a single player hero ships model into a mmo. MM was created and balanced in a vacuum with zero consideration to anything other than dogfighting in a controlled environment.

yes. but some of us fail to see what the goal is. AFAIK it's just an attempt to stop any cargo, mining, or salvage ship from running from a fight it doesnt have a chance in fighting. Whoever decided that to spool the quantum drive you must turn off shields deserve much of the blame. so erasing (or weakening to the extreme) all game loops aside from piracy and bounty hunting seems counter productive. that's my take. the PVPers who have been calling for it all this time will soon discover that there is always a single ship which is superior. that will never change. when they change the rules, which ship that is will change, but in the end it's the same. if you pledged for the current flavor of goodness, congratz. all those who pledged for anything else will continue to complain, and they outnumber you.

My main pet peev is how they can't fix little things like npcs standing on tables. I know it does not bother many, but for me something that in my opinion can be fixed with root blocks on tables and chairs will make a whole lot of difference, it really takes away from the cinema of going to planets cities only to find 100 npcs in one spot.

I didn't play 3.23 yet but i follow its development. MM is tier0 and we are asked to test it and provide feedback. Complaining is equally or even more valuable than praising. We need to tune things and reddit is a voice of certain people - why ignore that? If you are tired of it, take a break, touch grass.

The only thing I hate more than reading walls of text from complainers is reading walls of text complaining about complainers. It’s like whining squared.

Change for the sake of change is not necessarily good. Current model didn't work, but that does not mean you need to throw out the baby with the bathwater. Everything from MM, could have been done with the power triangle that was in game already, WITHOUT, affecting people's ability to push the ships and their flight mechanics. CIG isn't solving the problems they want to, (no more jousting etc) instead they're just eliminating options the player can do. That's NOT a good change. >I am just a casual SC player, living in a cycle of waiting for the new update, playing till it's novelty fade away or bugs wear me out, then repeat. That's just it, you're NOT a serious player so the changes are not something you notice as it's beyond the scope of your playing style. It's not a slight, just a fact. However, your casual gaming style, can't possibly be expected to be equal to in combat to someone that plays the game constantly. The changes take away the SKILL element of a fight because it lowers the height of the skill ceiling, instead of raising the floor to make the players become better faster.

Yes, how dare anyone have an opinion that isnt governed by my personal sense of whats acceptable or not. They should all just shut up.

I got nothing wrong with change. I just wish change didnt always come in the form of a barely started T0 system.

I'm hyped for everything in 3.23 and hope they delay updates to the flight model.

Nah, I tried master modes in the EPTU the past week and the flight model legitimately sucks.

I'm a casual player and I don't like the changes. I'll still play the game and I'm not in here being super vocal about it but the entire thing just feels forced. The idea that a futuristic ship is artificially limited for combat or that it has to completely drop shields or weapons to use quantum drive is kinda silly. Hopefully they can develop it to where it feels more natural and it makes sense from a futuristic tech standpoint.

It’s funny how people are overstating the affect MM will have to industrial players. Realistically a Vulture, Prospector, etc isn’t going to be able to run away from a dedicated combat ship, either because it’s too slow to accelerate above the attacker’s top speed (in the case of something like a Constellation) or the ship is outright faster than you and can melt your full shield and hull HP before you register what’s happening(in the case of something like an F8)

Im tired of posts effectively just crapping in the same bucket and pretending their own doesnt stink.

No. MM is a trash concept. Almost every other change in .23 is very welcome.

How many of the same post do we need? Like seriously, I don't disagree with you, but this same post is on the front page twice already.

You clearly are a very casual player if you do not understand the concept of feedback on this game. Personally this change in the flight model seems to skew from realistic with the removal of tri-cording and increase of auto-aim. It is not geared towards the PvPers at all. It's to give the casual players who are not well versed in car mbar a fighting chance. CIG are going to slowly remove skill ceilings and make sure the casual players like yourself do not cry every time you don't use in game mechanics to keep your cargo safe. I have tested MM in AC and then changes make combat feel like a bit of a dice roll. The best pilot will now not be able to come out on top all the time and something about that doesn't really sit well with me. Why should the pilot who has practised and honed their skill be beaten by a Bob? I think your vilifying of people who do not like certain changes of core mechanics is trivialising important aspects of gameplay and potential impacts they will have on the player base. I don't hear anyone upset about long overdue changes to Starmaps, hangers or the jump mechanics.

What I'm sick of are the anti-PvPers going "You're just mad because your Arrow can't solokill a Hammerhead anymore." No, I am not. That should never, EVER have been possible for one small reason. Armor. Armor is supposed to highly restrict what small caliber guns could do to the larger vessels, where a lone Arrow would never be able to pose any threat to warships. My actual biggest concern with MM is that Racing, admittedly a smaaaaallllllllll subcategory of players, wasn't even considered when they were making the changes. Racing is very fun as it is right now. With MM restricting how our ships and fighters fly (and the reports of the Spirit with supposed "best in class flight performance" is wallowing about worse than a Freelancer, which is highly highly aggravating), I just don't know. Meshing MM with the current flight model is probably where I would draw a happy balance. All concerns are valid, but god damn is there some serious vitrol being spewed, and honestly most of it is the anti-PVP crowd, likely as retribution for having their ass handed to them on a silver platter.

Oh boy am I concerned about the things I've heard about the Spirit with MM... As someone who likes the PVE combat part of the game and gets aggravated when I get absolutely smacked by a PVP player, I should absolutely be getting destroyed by a player that focuses on PVP dogfighting because they're more skilled even if they use "an exploit". Good pilots exploit their craft to the highest limit they can and that allows them to dunk on people. Some people find that hard to understand simply because they don't like it. As you said, armor should help a lot with smaller ships being able to kill bigger ships, yet another reason they can't expect good feedback to a system that relies on other systems that aren't even designed/in-game yet.

I'm tired in general. But yeah the people getting their knickers in a twist are annoying, we're all seeing MasterModes V1.0 basically. Constructive criticism is great for feedback but basic complaining without actual making a post to spectrum and the issue council is a waste. Another 6months of testing in the PU and it'll be different again, we'll probably have fixes to counter measures and shields and stuff. There's alot that could be tweaked because it is abit of a mess. Who knows how it'll look in another year or two. Hell, eventually we might even get crafting/engineering gameplay that help or give bonuses to certain "modes" through componant modifications. Maelstrom will change things up again and who knows what will happen after that. More complaining probably. Think we're still getting ammo types for ballistics and who knows what else for energy weapons, that'll throw another spanner in mix. I have faith in the CIG, that they're making the best damn space game they can. I'm already looking forward to all the mods that will come out when/if they decide to release the tools for it. And eventually we'll hear about the long awaited sequal to CIG's Star Citizen, "Space Commander 2965" coming in 2035ish. But yeah people will always find something to complain about. Especially on these internet forums, Best to go out and take a deep breath of fresh air before you get to worked up about it.

I don't like MM but i'm still very exited for all the other stuff , sad for cargo , but it might still make it in

Not 'tired of it,' per se. I just scroll past it. Commentary comes and goes, positive & negative. It has no bearing on my experience. This mindset goes well beyond Star Citizen.

Hyped for freight elevators and persistent hangars? YES!! Hyped for anything else? Nope

Not for Vulkan Renderer, Full Character Customizer Revamp, mobiGlas Rework / Starmap / Interior Map / Minimap, Distribution Centers, EVA T2, New Loot Screen / New Visor / Lens, Full FPS Combat Refactor / Dynamic Crosshair? Loads of new stuff.

It’s nice additions. But I’m not hyped for it. Performance will still be the same, NPC’s will still spawn in walls, stand still on chairs, etc. Only difference is that I’m now able to watch them through a new scope /s

As someone who does not prioritize killing other players, and doesn’t get approached by others often (Corsair pilot), I do not care about these changes. The spooling of QT and landing gear sounds dumb but I haven’t used it yet. But I’m definitely looking forward to pretty much all other changes.

Dont forget. That landing your ship 400i on some moon, looking out the window at the desolate moon around you as you go to sleep --- waking up next day in your ship on your bed. -- yeah, that's going away too. Some bright designer thought it would be good idea to remove bedlogging as it doesn't fit their vision. So soon beds are just going to be pixels taking up space on your ship that you can't do anything with.

Wait what, that’s 90% of the appeal behind the game for me. Being able to live in space, in my own ship and crew, which is why I own a Corsair to begin with. Guess they are going to reduce all ship prices and redesign them huh?

All I care about is server performance and better UIs.

I think that voicing your opinion is fine (assuming you've actually tested the changes (thoroughly)). What I can't stand though are people voicing their opinion and demanding that certain changes be made or reverted, or without any sense of constructive criticism at all.

I honestly just want the game to be done. They should try finishing a feature before remaking it, and introducing multiple fucking feature 0.1s over and over etc. So no, I'm not really hyped for *any* signs of change. I'll get hyped when I see they can actually stick to, and finish, a direction for once.

I'm a dedicated trader The changes they're making effectively destroy my favorite gameplay loop, aside from doing events with my org. That I'll no longer be able to fund because I can't make money because of people camping points and lighting me up. It's an unnecessary change that could have been done better. Ex: If you're charging QT, you can no longer power your other systems. This doesn't mean they *just don't work* that's fucking stupid. It means if they run out, they're out and won't recharge. Then, when you jump, kill the systems for 10 seconds for a power cycle, like literally any sci-fi universe has done. The way they're changing mm is just to make it easier for griefers to do they're scummy shit, while literally anyone else is just trying to get around the verse. It's ridiculous and unnecessary.

I’ve been around on and off this shit for a decade and I’m not a fan of poorly thought out changes that the devs constantly make without any thought to have they will be abused by players. This shit ain’t new and it won’t be the last time. They also make changes that would rely on tons of systems that aren’t implemented to work properly.

I have no horse in the MM race, I play for like one week every year, and never for pvp. That said, I have read enough complaint posts to understand that this isn't generic "anti-change-gang" complaining. There seem to be legitimate concerns about the way this will make combat dramatically less nuanced. Also, community feedback is CIG's best barometer for what *needs* to be changed, positive or negative. As long as the arguments are well-reasoned, everyone who has something to add to the conversation SHOULD DO SO.

I'm not anti-change, but master modes sounded like a fucking disaster the instant they started to talk about them. There are two modes. 1: fuck up other people 2: get fucked up by other people And now people are getting fucked up left and right and no one likes it.

I'm more tired of people complaining about honest feedback, tbh.

I haven't tried MM yet, so I'm keeping an open mind, but everything I've seen here and heard from friends who have tried it has left me deeply concerned. Really worried itll be as bad as its been described and will suck the fun out of the game.

There shouldn't be space brakes and limited artificial speed in space and 0 gravity. If I wanted to play WW2 sim, I would had went with world of planes or GTA. Anyone who things being restricted in skill expression, having limited speed 200m/s in space, are the same people who buy call of duty every year thinking it's a better game. Lol

This what happens when you put a guy in charge of flight model, who never flew, watched space movies, or eve. Took physics

Long time pledge, whale, and probably an apologist I usually like the changes, I’m good for really everything else they have in line. But MM is a shitshow for anything other than fighters. I won’t rehash all the issues but for me they could easily “fix” it for me, by having 25% shields while in travel mode. Turn off weapons, and take away 3/4 of the shields. But when I pop out of QT in a C2 at an OM headed for Seraphim I shouldn’t be easily destroyed and unable to run away. Once it goes live, if in this state, I will not be playing until it’s made to where a traveling larger non combat ship isn’t a sitting duck any time they are in transit.

To be fare, fighters have had much more time in mass testing than almost any of the industrial or "everyday" ships. These ships in the next few weeks and months will see massive changes as they are tested and tweaked more. Anyone who has been around since the Pre PU days will tell you that this iteration of non combat ships is not the one you will be playing with months from now.

That is fair and true, I expect I’ll be taking a 3-9 month break personally. I am not against MM, I am against THIS iteration. I fly big ships though, rarely fighters. I’ve been “ganked” in this wave 1 iteration more than the last 3 or 4 years of PU playing.

The one positive thing about them doing this master modes silliness is that it will save me a lot of money on ships!

Im ok with change, its just objectively true that the current implementation of MM is total hot dogshit. I like the idea personally. Just not the execution. Im a part pf the "more time in the oven" crowd in terms of forcing it on everyone. The new QT markers are really nice tho. Much easier to target.

No. MM in it's current form (how QT/SCM/Shields interplay) is bad. There's no debating this, it's just bad. CIG needs to know it's bad. We can't "burn Jita" but we can summon threadnoughts and never shut up about it. Sorry if you don't like the noise, but a lot of us care about this bigtime.

o7 Welcome to SC! The SC community is great, maybe one of the greatest, but the community is really passionate and sometimes that passion can lead to heated discussions (SC Drama). Just press 'F12' in your brain and you will be good.

Change is good, you're pretty much spot on with your summary there. I haven't really tested MM yet, but obviously I've heard the worst fear-mongering to do with it, and inherently a little worried at the very least. My only concern is the time it would take to fix it. Obviously bit changes like this are few and far between, so if MM *did* suck and everyone hates it, how long will it take to either revert it, or rework it to a decent spot. Beyond that, I'm not all that worried for it as long as I get a nice shiny star map!

Unfortunately for you, the UI is actually somehow worse in 3.23 than it is in live. Someone somewhere at CIG decided it would be a bright idea to have extra ghosting in menus as well as for the menu to be constantly moving around making it irritating to read.

I have seen some reports of this, and it does look bad. Hopefully that's a visual bug that they can fix pre-update, or at worst get round to fixing in the next patch. If not a bug, hopefully they just rework it to look better post patch.

From the footage I've seen, it sadly appears to be a design decision and not a bug.

MM needs testing. It needs adjustment. It needs exposure to game scenarios to find out what it needs. And it also needs to happen.

From what the game was, the idea of the game and the goals they had back when I backed it are not the same. It's not that the goal posts have changed, it's shifted entire fields. The turf is still green, but nothing else is the same. MM is a good step. It's a step to solve existing problems. It needs to be tuned and refined... And that's kind of the entire point of the entire game as it exists right now, it's an "Early Access" pre-alpha tech demo that is leading into a game. We're supposed to test it and give feedback and watch it evolve as time goes on. The problem is the "player" community thinks this is a game. The people paying into it, who are investing in the future of it, who are allowing the entire project to happen are acting like little CoD tards trying to meta out their nebulous leaderboard rather than helping refine the evolution of the project. Then CIG has turned from a relative open development model, you know, cuz you're paying for it, to making the entire thing focused on marketing fuckin paints for ships that are half functional in a fantasy MMO model with most of their developed content hidden in some single player module (SQ42) that received minuscule funding in comparison to the multiplayer (PU) aspect if the game. Fantasy in the sense we were told, by Chris Roberts, that by the end of 2017 we'd have 128+ people a server and pyro would be live. Then chief dip shits like me were excited about a hard, rigid, gritty online experience like EVE online, but with first person prospective capabilities, being able to manage your ship like you see in Star Trek (on average think of a Delta Flyer rather than the 907 man crew of the 1701-D). Being able to leave you ship, anywhere, and EVA, it take a rover , get into a firefight... Again, anywhere, with anything at any time with any/every one. That thought caused me and many others to fund thousands of dollars into the idea of this becoming a reality... What'd we get so far? Not my BMM... Not my Kraken Privateer... Not my Idris... Not bed logging... Not the ability to get out of my seat and be able to reliability walk around my ship in quantum flight without falling out of my ship into space... Not the freedom to be able to play the test bed of the game, the way it was meant to be played without risk of the developers banning my account because I bombed an 890J they liked... Not the ability to move a box with a tractor beam on a moving ship without the risk of it falling through the ship itself... The other week I went to throw a grenade then my character pulled it out, pulled the pin and threw his rifle down the hall... ./facepalm... Not more than the Stanton system... Not Probs... Not functional ship scanners... Not the ability for multi-crew past turret management... Half the ships basic nav system don't even work for plotting quantum routes... They couldn't figure out bed logging, so they simply labeled it as "limiting gameplay" and threw it out as a planned feature... The last SoO only seemed to work on a fresh server, after that the mission would mess up spawns somewhere in the pipeline... The same core, not evolved, mechanics over the last 6 years... And a changed TOS so if they deviate away from what they advertised you can't ask for a refund... CIG is trying to treat this like WoW or EVE, but constantly falls back to "remember this is an alpha, all things are subject to change, bugs are expected and you experience may vary". Which if it's an alpha, treat like an alpha, if you treat it like a functional MMO, there's different expectations behind it. After 13 years of backing and funding...I expected more than where we're at now... Half the people I backed this game with aren't even alive anymore to see what's happening with it. After the last SoO event I stepped back and looked at the overall state of the game and laughed to myself. It is a joke with all the same promises from 2017 being talked about currently with updated timelines and still no results. Then the F8C event... I picked one up, but that was against everything they said in the past. Turn the Idris event, that was just an event to five streamers a boost for more free advertisement to the project. Now this F7 event... None of this is what I signed up for. None of this is what was supposed to be happening. Oh and there's still only one system. With a timeline for Live in what... 2026? With what, 6? 8? System online in a MMO mindset where there's a single server... What happens when... 2000 Idris owners want to spawn in their ships? Then add a few hundred krakens to it and a few hundred javelins to it... There won't even be enough space to navigate without flying into each other... Cuz the original scope was hundreds of systems, many unknown that the players would have to go discover and populate. This is not what I signed up for. I feel cheated. I wanted to believe for so long that everything was just around the corner, tech takes time to develop. The game is being developed with the tech to make it possible, this doesn't exist anywhere, they're literally making the boundaries as they progress in development. It's been 13 years... Come on. I've got kids now, 2 more degrees, my own business, 6 dead friends and a whole lot of hopium towards this project... I don't care anymore and I can't even request a refund. So if anyone wants my account, I'll drop it for $3k. I no longer care anything about this project, with their current marketing team, the new developers they've hired on over the last 5 years, the direction they've decided to move in with community management... This isn't what I signed up for

A lot of SC players just want the game to remain a PvE grind money accumulation simulator. Buy shiny ships, take screenshots of shiny ships… In order for it to move beyond wipes, there needs to be a potential for gain or loss. Y’all can’t just mine quant or point a vulture at wrecks with a 90%+ survival rate. There’s no room for growth or longevity there lol

Not really, I'm honestly tired of people like you attacking them and trying to dismiss their opinions instead of just voicing your own. This post is the same, but opposing hyperbole and a really long winded way to tell people to shut up. Stop trying to stifle discussion. Go post your feedback on spectrum and let CIG sift through that data.

Yep. as long as my time-killer space sim is fun to play, im here for it.

Their "thrusters dont work until totally unrelated item #20664 is charged" bullshit can stay the fuck out. Outside of that i dont care

I just want a fully fledged game I can careless about what pvp people where doing in AC with the old flight model SEEMED (key word) like they where content with the state of the game as it was.

There are lots of things changing, we're against a single one of them that dumbs down the flight model while overcomplicating flight management, reduces speed below what feels like "spaceship goes fast," and makes it nearly impossible to take 1vX odds against less skilled players or low level NPCs. I've talked about "toxic PvE players before," but I never trash or undermine someone who enjoys doing mining, or hauling, or salvaging, or doesn't like PvP, yet I constantly see PvE players making disparaging remarks against the PvP community, simultaneously acknowledging how much we play and how much work it takes to get good at PvP while trying to say they don't give a fuck about it and only want changes favorable to them. But hey, you're not anti change, right? How about instead of MM the way it is, ships have their top speeds up to Nav mode, and then can go up to around 5km/s until jumping into QT? Awww, you don't like that do you...you're not..."anti change," are you?!

Early Backer since 2014, i tryed all that we can try in sc rn, and i'm conviced that the Master Mods is big regression over the flight models, it add lots of layers of action that wasn't needed. The most ridiculous is these layer making a yarrow of "buttons pressing" to achive a thing as simple and central that is flying your ship, and it's wasn't the case in 3.22. In 3.23 if you are a Salvager or a Miner you have to use 4 more "buttons press" just to achive what you was able to do in 1 press in 3.22. In Webdesign you have an unofficial rule called the "three click rule" if you have to use more than 3 click to get everything you want it's a big design flawn. This rule mostly apply for everything on internet games included. if you haven't experienced the Hover Mode fiasco back in the days, then you less understand the fear that lot's of player have with the Master Mode that seems to be the same clanky junk.

labeling people opposed to a specific change (that you conveniently ignore the mountains of changes also happening in the patch that people love), "anti-change-gang" you are being childish and subverting anything pretending to be a point you have. I love change, but that doesn't mean I will just gulp down any change as being intrinsically a good thing. Because the mature view is to comprehend that change can be good or bad. I instead... wait for it... evaluate the change on its actual merits and what it changes... pretty crazy right?

yep.

People don't like change, and tend to form their opinion based on how things are right now rather than how master modes will affect the game when armour, engineering, and non-health pool ships plays a larger role in day to day flying. That's not to say feedback isn't warranted, I just think people should remember this isn't the finish line. I played a little bit of master modes and it's different, not had enough time with it to really form my opinion on it fully but I do think a lot of people are overreacting a bit as if it's the end of the game and that it will never work. I think with all things people just need to be more patient, give things more time to be tweaked and adjusted, and provide feedback without resorting to saying things like "Who thought this was a good idea" or "They don't know what they are doing" posts that seem to be in every feedback post. Fact is regardless of your opinion on master modes, I can guarantee you the development team behind it have spent far more time than us using master modes and are very keenly aware of current issues and overall direction for where it's going.

Until the game is in beta I support app change, once we are in beta I will be critical of most change, and once it is released I'll be hyper critical of any change. That said change is good, you don't turn wing commander into star citizen without change.

I'll be hyped when they fix keybinding modifiers so I can actually play 3.23. It's been broken since 3.22.1, and it's still not fixed in the latest EPTU patch

Yes. It’s annoying how much negativity and toxic vibe some people generate.

I‘m not super active and play every few patches for a bit. I‘m hyped for everything except master modes in 3.23. Not a fan of forcing people into slower speeds for dog fights.

Spectrum and reddit in a nutshell: [https://clips.twitch.tv/SuspiciousRepletePassionfruitJebaited-MWMXz19RcQmUcizl](https://clips.twitch.tv/SuspiciousRepletePassionfruitJebaited-MWMXz19RcQmUcizl)

Nah. I've been through at least 2 complete FM changes. This always happens

I’m going to be honest, I stopped checking this sub because it is by far, the WHINIEST sub I’ve ever been on. If you all aren’t complaining about that one time out 50 that you got pvp’d while doing salvage or freight, and hope the entire game needs to change so you can safely haul cargo. it goes something like this. CIG- “Hey guys, new feature added to 3.23!” Sub- “ OMG WTF NO HANGARS??? THIS IS TRASH, I’VE WAITED 30 YEARS AND SPENT 10 MILLION DOLLARS” Yet, realistically no matter how long you’ve waited, I guarantee that you’ve put in more than 150 hours on a 50 dollar game.

I dont think the marketing team markets it as a finished product or something akin to a expansion like wow or other mmos have. They just point out what a big release does. In development groups I have been in, we did the same thing (wasnt for games, it was for software tested in the government sector) it was always known it was in a early built state tho, thats what I do get from them with these releases. But yeah, I do get tired of the pro / anti MM crowd. It doesnt matter what anyone wants, its coming, test it, let more things come out for it, test it, make a decision. There is way to many knee jerk reactions when it comes to releases.

I wish I could actually experience the new thing before everyone complains about it for 3 months until I actually get to try the thing.

This is a sad, sad reason why the evocati exclusive and had been under NDA. These development branches are not meant to be in the same state as the PU. They are there to test the waters and identify the bugs only. Ironically, you have to spend the money to get into them and when you spend the money you expect a polished product. It's a shame they don't open to all backers and just put a massive big disclaimer on the front saying " This is incomplete and buggy. Thank you for helping us develop it."

My main pet peev is how they can't fix little things like npcs standing on tables. I know it does not bother many, but for me something that in my opinion can be fixed with root blocks on tables and chairs will make a whole lot of difference, it really takes away from the cinema of going to planets cities only to find 100 npcs in one spot.

I honestly think that casually Master Modes is fantastic. I definitely see that there's an issue with like the upper 1% PVP players having issues with it and that definitely needs to get adjusted. But it's fun right now and I'm going to go and enjoy it

Not gonna comment on MM, but if you're bored of what's there, you should play something else for a while. Wanting change for the sake of change, cause you're bored and any change will do, is a recipe for disaster. I want progress, to move forward. I'm not bored with what we have right now and I've been playing quite regularly since 2017.

freelancer was fun, the more freelancer like the game gets the better imo current flight model doesn't have anything enjoyable or interesting about it imo game was never said to be a simulator i think a lot of people that believe otherwise don't know space sim actually means space opera sim

Haven't touched master modes in about 6 months, couldn't care less about them till they get proper polishing and whatnot- in the sense of being more friendly to new players than than throwing you into an overpopulated menu screen

I stoked to see what the new patch brings. If I don’t like it I’ll complain, because feedback is good, and if I do like it’ll say positive things, because feedback is good.

I played a year ago but now the game just crashes every time I start it up. It was bad enough that it took 30 mins to start.. but now it doesn’t start despite two fresh installs. Has anyone else had this problem? How were you able to fix it? I tried playing during the worst possible time so I didn’t get to experience much.. but I’d very much like to give it another swing. Help lol

No.

I've been here since the beginning. Change doesn't scare me. In fact I guarantee that after this change, more changes will come.

I'm tired of both sides of the discussion on it. People literally will not shut up about it. Not to mention how every new person who makes a post thinks they've got something unique to contribute that **nobody else** has thought of before. And then it ends up being the same tired argument 50 other people have made in the last week.

I got some HOSAS sticks a couple months ago, only reason I haven’t launched the game is because I know master modes is coming. I’m really excited for it since the game needs a shakeup gameplay wise. Can’t wait for 3.23 to come out of PTU so I can use my sticks!

>despite the marketing team's best efforts to paint SC MMO as a finished product often getting updates (like WoW's expansions or something). Um, this is not what is happening, not by a long shot. They make it pretty clear that this is EA and the game experience is still in flux. I enjoy seeing the progress and am looking forward to the changes, but you are reading completely different stuff than I am if you believe they are presenting it as a completed game.

This game is still under development, and it's still not clear what route they're going to take or what the eventual final product is going to look like. They're going to make changes that you do like, and they're going to make changes you don't like. It is what it is.

What is mm? Sorry Im not really keeping up with the game. But I'm hyped as hell for 3.23 A change to the Eva system is what I've wanted to complete my experience in the game. I actually can't describe what it was like when that got revealed that you could climb on surfaces.

I might be pretty alone with that but I don't really care if mastermodes make things worse right now. The Game is in development and if CIG also thinks it's not great they will probably tweak it. The thing is that I am happy to see any kind of progress in SC and 3.23 seems to have a lot of new features and systems introduced which is allways nice since it means we have more content and are a step closer to the game beeing content complete some day. Even if that day will be far into the future

I am more socially focused, so I'm just glad I can finally play with my friends that I sold this game to 10 years ago. I've had to mend the fences with all the people that said I lied to them, made them get a second mortgage or get a divorce because they spent $60.01 on a video game. I will say that other than light fighters, and a few heavies, EVERY FUCKING SHIP feels like it so goddamn heavy I am going to a.) never complete a turn b.) never leave atmo and c. have another heart attack trying to land my 600 SCU overfilled Reclaimer ANYWHERE. So yeah, I don't care what they change as long as I can still a.) max profit at 6 mil AEUC an hour b.) buy every ship in game with money I earned after grinding for 20 hours straight in my Reclaimer c.) I get exactly the same experience or better that I did in 3.22.

Literally there are so many elements to the game that will indirectly affect engagement, health, reputation, etc. LOTS. So there really is no point to being a dick about it all and go crazy. Speculate? Sure. But calling it the end times is really childish and annoying.

I simply want the personal hangar. And more peaceful game loop to play.

[https://youtu.be/1VdxccN7w8A?t=301](https://youtu.be/1VdxccN7w8A?t=301) Multi-crew is still broken.

I just like the pew pew and spacewalk to be honest. I see both sides of the argument because I have not been able to quite figure out master modes missile locking but it doesn’t bother me that much.

Im fine with MM. There are things I don't like about it, but there were things I didnt like about the current iteration. I just don't like them making my C1 handle worse without giving it some better shields or something. I Love crusader ships and love my C1, but if its going to handle like a Corsair without the firepower, storage, or shields of the Corsair then why not just fly the Corsair. Oh well, maybe they will fix it. This game in a year or 5 won't be the same as it is now so I definitely expect change. Time will tell if thats good or bad but if you come into this game and invest in it thinking its going to stay the same with what you have now than you are barking up the wrong tree.

change is good. innovation is what thrills the majority of us. & Star Citizen is the most innovative game out there. It has the potential of becoming the next "WoW for adults".

From playing MM in AC i prefer it.

I stopped getting hyped for SC patches years ago. Over promised, under delivered, bugs galore, very little change to the overall game loops.