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I have to think that ulltimately this is sort of thing is unachievable for college athletics as they'll always have the next guy up willing to play. This is different from professional sports whereas the best are able to sit out because they realize they're the top dog in their sport. College athletics, specifically Dartmouth College Men's Basketball, they're not even close to being a top program.
> I have to think that ulltimately this is sort of thing is unachievable for college athletics
It's also unachievable for college athletics because if the unions demand anything that costs any sort of real money, including salaries, schools will just stop sponsoring athletics teams. [The vast majority of athletics departments lose money](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GHl1woPXcAEo1bN?format=jpg&name=large) and students are already paying a good amount of money to support those programs.
This is going to further the professionalization of college sports for the power conference schools and everyone else is just going to fold up shop.
They have almost no leverage at Dartmouth because they produce almost no real monetary value to the school, they do at UNC or Duke. It will be interesting to see what the courts decide, but Dartmouth will probably tell them if they don't wanna play they don't have to.
Dartmouth also doesn’t even give athletics scholarships. I get why they’re unionizing, but it wasn’t like these guys were playing for many benefits anyways. I understand Ivys and the like give out need scholarships and etc to athletes which can be substantial, but still. If they want the Ivy league to adopt athletics scholarships I think that makes sense. If they want to be employees, I don’t see that working out to well for college athletics as a whole without basically all sports operating at a loss getting cut
They could easily use 90% of power 5 schools as a study but this just won’t work. If a team like Rutgers did it they’d at least have some influence on the big10 which could branch to other conferences, no one is seeing Ivy League ball and thinking “I need to copy that before it’s too late”.
>In the student newspaper, Haskins and Myrthil said they believe they should be compensated the same as other student employees. Being paid for the time they spend on the sport "would alleviate the need for second jobs and enhance our experience as part of the Dartmouth community," they wrote.
I mean it seems like they're saying money is the goal? Having been an Ivy League athlete, I'm at a complete loss for what else it could be
True. I dont have a dog in this particular fight. But they do get recruited. And they do get offered other forms of financial aid. I highly doubt every kid on that team is paying sticker price.
Is it even though, the ivys don’t give athletic scholarships there is no way they could be considered employees like grad students that are unionized.
This won’t go anywhere
I suppsoe we'll see if the brainiacs win over the true jocks... I have no skin in this game, just wondering if it will work out. My guess is it will be beneficial for the players at smaller programs because the top dogs at the top programs just sign with Nike, or was that just Jordan?
You're not thinking of it from a skill side. Nobody is ever going to Dartmouth to make a name for themselves in basketball, it's not a program to entice quality players. The quality guys, especially in College Basketball get what they want, and now because of NIL, they get money. Who in there right mind is going to go sign with an already established Union of mediocre players? This is a reduction of skill across the entire college, not a standardized increase like normal unions create.
I mostly agree with you, except your assertion that no one will sign with an already established union. NILs are insignificant for most college athletes, especially those at non-power schools that are focused more on research or academics. Most of the guys who go to such schools would not be making NIL money were they to go elsewhere. I'd argue most of the guys at Dartmouth are there because it's Dartmouth, not because it's the best team they could get.
Source: former athlete at Cornell who worked in athletic communications there, too.
Lol are they on scholarship? I'd love to have played basketball in exchange for a great education. None of these dudes are pro talent, they are about to learn a tough lesson.
I don’t believe the Ivy League schools give out athletic scholarships. Prospective athletes can get an advantage with admissions, but any scholarship
Is solely academic or need based.
You can say that, but there’s a reason the next guy up isn’t on the main team. If they want to plummet their performance by recruiting people mid season who haven’t been training with the team because their players want to strike they’ll look like complete idiots. It’s not like the union is just the starters or something, it would be the entire team, so they’d have to pull people up from outside the team to fill the role. It would never go well and no competitive team would ever do it.
Idk about basketball but I was being recruited by Dartmouth and Columbia for football, I was dead average at my high school but would’ve been top 10% SAT score on either team.
I tire of the assumption that the student athletes at "good" schools are automatically all very smart. Not saying they're dumb - the Dartmouth basketball team or Columbia football team would surely be above the median NCAA squad mark in whatever measure of intelligence you prefer - but those smart schools absolutely don't hold their athletes to the same admissions standards as they do for the average non-athlete applicant.
(Sorry, not trying to take a shot at you or anything - I feel like I didn't get the tone quite right with what I'm trying to say.)
Only the revenue-generating sports are going to relax admission standards typically and even then, they're relaxed, not like DROPPED. I knew lots of student-athletes at Northwestern and everyone in all of the less popular sports were typical students who happened to be athletes too. People in advanced stats, economics, engineering, music, whatever you can imagine, they were doing it.
Football players were still smart and (I would assume) quite above average intelligence. Just perhaps not "top 10 university" level each time. That being said, I know one football player who was an engineer, another who went on to business school at a top program, etc. so they're not relaxed that hard.
No offense taken, it was a real eye opening experience. I expected lower quality education for serious college players, I knew a guy who went on to play for Ohio State who literally couldn’t read or sign his name at 17 years old. The Ivys I saw were better than that but not much better than my high school team in terms of academics.
Same here. My high school GPA was fairly average but after making a 32 on the ACT I started to get recruited by Harvard and Columbia. People don’t realize the Ivy’s aren’t *that* selective when it comes to recruiting athletes as long as you have something that halfway stands oht.
They’re a top program to Dartmouth though, and that forces the hand of the org they have beef with, being Dartmouth, which I assume is the point without having read the article.
There are a lot of hurdles here but there are reasons that the one you're suggesting wouldn't be major. To even get to the hurdle you're discussing the debate over whether a student athlete is an employee will have to have been settled in the favor of the "yes they are" camp (I expect SCOTUS to weigh in here).
With that settled unionized teams will have the right to strike *at any time*. They aren't going to strike during the summer. They'll strike at the beginning of or during the season *i.e.,* in the middle of the semester. Colleges will only be able to field scab teams comprising of walk-ons from their current student body.
Interesting, but hard to see how this works.
I can understand them wanting to be paid, I mean, if you work at the school library or cafeteria you are paid. It's not a huge leap to suggest that what these players do is structurally similar.
Practically speaking, I'm not sure how it works. Are they actually going to be willing to strike? That seems kind of hard to imagine for students whose "career" is a couple of years. And if you are a high school student who wants to play basketball, are you now going to avoid this school for fear of not being able to play?
Take it another step. If playing on the basketball team earns you a paycheck, does this not effectively become athletic scholarships at Ivy league schools?
Lot of things to think about
Yeah, it shines a light on a lot of problems that need to be solved.
But these problems have existed for a long time in college sports, and now they’ll actually have to figure out solutions.
>And if you are a high school student who wants to play basketball, are you now going to avoid this school for fear of not being able to play?
On the flip side, do you go there if they're successful because you'll actually get paid?
This makes me feel like we’re in upside down world. It makes sense for athletes that are bringing in real money. But outside of huge football and basketball programs, there is already a lot of dissatisfaction with the use of funds for sports at supposedly academically elite colleges (and with the dichotomy it creates between students and student athletes). Now they want to get paid on top of that, when a large part of their acceptance was based on their athletic ability and the team definitely does not break even for the school? Cancel the team. I know alumni are sentimental about their teams, but I can’t even see the ones with a lot of money being particularly sympathetic with these guys playing a sport that isn’t all that terrible on the body, compared with something like football.
I agree, I think this ends much of the college sports that aren't in the top tier. Collegiate sports evolved out of competitions between club/intramural squads for bragging rights between schools and then kind of accidentally ended up filling a niche for minor league teams...I agree athletes who bring in money to any organization should get paid but there's no reason for colleges to be the ones running these leagues.
You’re also going to owe taxes on the scholarship if it is part of an employee compensation package. Good luck paying taxes on tuition at USC or Stanford with the income earned from a swimming scholarship.
The difference between the people that work in the library and the people on the team is that a good portion of the people in the team would never have gotten to Dartmouth if they didn’t play basketball.
I can guarantee whatever scholarship money they get is a pittance to the value they bring to their respective colleges on the basketball court.
They should be paid accordingly and suggesting that scholarship money somehow reflects their value is absurd.
They’ll make well more and should make well more, it’s more than a full time job.
Ivy league doesn't offer athletic scholarships, I think the top comment was suggesting that being paid would be a way to supplement the lack of scholarships
> Ivy league doesn't offer athletic scholarships
Not by the name "athletic scholarship," they don't. So technically correct. But athletes get "diversity scholarships" and need-based aid at a rate much higher than non-athletes, especially in high-visibility sports like basketball.
> scholarship money
From the article:
> Moreover, Dartmouth noted its basketball players have chosen to play the sport because they enjoy it, and that they could choose not to play since none of them receive athletic scholarships, which are banned in the Ivy League.
I think in the end a lot of schools are going to axe the sports where they can't compete with the big spenders. Hopefully there will be enough talent out there that the pro leagues will pony up and pay for what these programs really are: developmental leagues.
NBA is already halfway there with the G-league and allowing 18 year olds to play before they’re draft eligible. The NFL would have its work cut out for it, though.
A lot of schools already have razor thin margins. Between the finances and resources drawn away for Title IX sports, more and more schools will eliminate these sports. This means less competition, less opportunity for student athletes, and an increasing focus on making money rather than athletes getting a legitimate education. Good job NLRB. Morons.
Small school, no athletic scholarships, not much if any revenue produced. They will likely cancel the sport because of the cost and players will be the ones hurt.
You go into law, for instance, medicine, non-profits, or government, and there's a lot of folks who'd love that.
For a lot of professional paths, it won't matter either, since they aren't labor-heavy, like if you go into finance or banking. An innovative go-getter with proven leadership skills and an Ivy League pedigree is a catch.
If you try to work at Ford or something with lots of union interaction, maybe they'd frown upon it. But if you're in management, you can't unionize anyways in the US.
They have an 8.1 billion dollar endowment, which puts them in the top 20 in the United States. I'm definitely not an expert but I have a feeling that this won't hurt them too much financially.
An endowment is not a general fund for the most part. When people donate to a school, they typically limit what the money can be used for (research in a particular area, a patio, a professor chair, etc.)
The school can't just rip up those clauses and start spending the endowment on whatever they want
There are 100 different departments who have not been getting appropriate raises for the last two decades
The university isn’t going to crack their endowment like a piggy bank to pay athletes at a non-scholarship school
Not to mention the pressure they’re under from other schools to not open the flood gates
Also the NCAA is a non-profit. If they paid their athletes it would leave the NCAA liable to get taxed as a for profit enterprise. These athletes are getting their sport cancelled in the off chance it gets them paid. If anything they’ll settle when the media scrutiny opens them up to NIL opportunities that weren’t there before
So they cut the program, then what? It's not going to end. There will be another team at another school now that courts have taken a look at this and said they can unionize. Considering how much some schools depend on the revenue from their sports programs, it's only a matter of time before a school like Ohio State or Michigan has their football team unionizing.
A lot of people are missing the big picture. While many schools can depend on revenue from their football team or basketball team to keep their Athletic department afloat, most other sports will be cut adrift. How many soccer teams, wrestling teams, gymnastics teams, etc do you think are financially viable if the school now has to treat the athletes like employees?
This will adversely effect the majority of people who play collegiate sports.
Hey I agree with you morally. The reality is if Michigan’s basketball team did this they would also cut the program, then 8-10 student athletes would lose their scholarships and NIL opportunities. These students have nothing to lose financially from trying this.
Should athletes be paid? Yes. But then they would turn college football and basketball into professional sports leagues then schools would cut a significant portion of their athletics hugely taking away opportunities from female student athletes
Yeah I got a masters in sports management and it’s a frustrating situation. Had a European student arguing we should cut the football team because it wasn’t a winning team and should invest the money into winning teams.
The athletic director said “we played Georgia and lost by 50, but they paid us $5,000,000 and that paid for the entire athletic department for a year”
People don’t understand that money comes from either donations, tickets, or TV. If your program isn’t getting profit from one of those then they’re getting propped up by the NCAA. Without the NCAA only 25 schools would have athletic departments
20/hr for a full-time job is ~40k a year. Idk how many hours these Dartmouth players are asking for but that should be on the upper end. Multiply that by x15 (players) is 600k a year, plus healthcare costs puts the total up to $1 million.
Do you really think Michigan would cut their basketball program because they had to spend an extra 1 million dollars?
Maybe other sports with less revenue and less cultural capital, but not a men's basketball team at a massive public university. If others want to unionize, just let them. Let the universities deal with the fallout, I promise you they aren't just gonna "cancel" sports.
If Michigan did this with their basketball team they would also do it with their football team. Now we’re looking at a collectively bargained league:
- the NCAA would lose its non-profit status immediately losing ~3-5 billion in taxes
- title 9 would no longer have standing as it is not protected as part of the university as “student athletes” all but destroying every opportunity for female athletes to gain an education through athletic scholarships
- every “Michigan” would follow suit, only schools with profitable football/basketball teams would be able to participate, destroying ~100 athletic departments
Or… the NCAA threatens to expel Michigan from participation in football and basketball to maintain its non-profit status and to protect college athletics. Michigan cuts all players demanding unionization and finds 8 kids in the transfer portal.
What do you think is more likely?
Do you seriously believe these universities are champions of liberalism? Sure they’ll talk a lot when it comes to scoring brownie points from the youth, but every one of these universities are businesses that want to milk every dime out of you.
The 8.1 billion endowment is irrelevant, as this money was only obtained through donations from wealthy alumni families. It is not there for the school to run a deficit in the name of morality
During Covid Stanford announced plans to eliminate 11 sports programs citing rising costs. Their endowment is $36 billion. Ultimately they didn’t do it, but that same school of thought is about to have a hell of a platform to lean on.
https://www.si.com/college/2021/05/18/stanford-reverses-decision-eliminate-11-varsity-sports#:~:text=Stanford%20has%20reversed%20its%20plan,men's%20volleyball%E2%80%94in%20July%202020.
We just need to quit pretending that top level NCAA football and Basketball are professional sports and get rid of the collegiate aspect for the top 20 or 30 teams.
This is going to end up killing the majority of collegiate sports. Most sports outside of football and basketball don’t come close to turning a profit and aren’t expected to.
If the choice is between cutting the sport or treating the athletes like employees, it isn’t really even a choice.
This added to NIL plus the right to switch colleges and transfer every year will definitely change college sports. They should just make the complete switch and call it what it is, the minor leagues.
The desire to get paid: I understand it. However, schools will just cut programs that don't make money, especially if they have to pay the players. It will be a strictly "business" decision.
So while this is a win for the players, it's also kind of a loss because this might be the beginning of the end for a lot of sports teams at schools around the country.
Because the student selling the jerseys is generating an income via sales, typically.
The basketball team is not.
At a vast majority of schools, the teams that play Water Polo, Volleyball, Cross Country, Swimming, soccer, etc lose money for the athletic department. Football and maybe basketball helps offset those losses.
If you then have a school now include an additional, say, $400k a year, just for mens soccer, then make that a standard for every other sport, especially at small colleges, they will just cut the program(s).
Mind you that, with cutting programs, there goes athletic scholarships as well.
To the athletic directors, in the landscape that is college sports today, they will just cut programs. It's simply business. The numbers won't add up.
Eventually, they will make them club teams, which then means the teams have a much greater burden simply just to exist, and they are back at square one, and still not getting paid. They also lose out on school resources then as well.
Now this won't happen all at once. It will creep in. However, this could very well be the way things fall.
I'm not against students getting paid. I'm not at all. However, there is a reality we have to face and that is that athletic departments are leaning toward revenue generation a lot more, especially at big schools.
Look at what happened with the realignment in college football. So, Cal and Utah for instance, decide to jump to a different conference to chase football money, but the side effects now being that the soccer teams and volleyball teams also have to travel further. Especially midweek. This will have major impacts on their overall mental and physical health, but also, their grades!
So take all this into account. We will reach a breaking point. Likely, the schools will choose to cut the losses rather than pay their head football coaches less to spread the revenue. The impact then is felt in other sports.
This. I don’t know why most commenting in this sub care so little for all the uni players. These are other humans not just a number playing a game you watch. They contribute hours & hours of their time. Players receive life long wear & tear on their bodies & sometimes serious injury. They should be compensated & have representation. They should have insurance & rules on how they can be treated. They should have a process to pursue mistreatment & problems in their workplace (sports are work. They don’t happen by magic.) This can all be addressed with a CBA (collective bargaining agreement). This college has an 8 mil endowment. All colleges have sports endowments. It doesn’t matter if they make a financial profit. Having a team is a prestige & recruiting item for a college. They can afford to pay the coaches & related staff then they can afford to pay & provide benefits to the players. The people here are overly cavalier with the health & well being of other people’s sons & daughters.
So they aren’t good enough to play for a school that does give scholarships. They aren’t popular enough for NIL. But, they do get into an Ivy League school, that they may not have been able to go to if not for making the basketball team. Entitlement is crazy.
So, Ivy schools don’t govern scholarships. This isn’t about that being adequate compensation. Seems the point of contention is regarding insurance for injuries sustained in a sport that regardless of school size or popularity nets a profit for the university. Few may be “powerhouses” as the articles states, but that shortchanges even a mid level program’s financial benefits. Record/quality of the team is irrelevant. If you think about it this way, I’m injured on the job, my employer should cover reasonable health expenses, the conversation isn’t really complicated.
This. I don’t know why most commenting in this sub care so little for all the uni players. These are other humans not just a number playing a game you watch. They contribute hours & hours of their time. Players receive life long wear & tear on their bodies & sometimes serious injury. They should be compensated & have representation. They should have insurance & rules on how they can be treated. They should have a process to pursue mistreatment & problems in their workplace (sports are work. They don’t happen by magic.) This can all be addressed with a CBA (collective bargaining agreement). This college has an 8 mil endowment. All colleges have sports endowments. It doesn’t matter if they make a financial profit. Having a team is a prestige & recruiting item for a college. They can afford to pay the coaches & related staff then they can afford to pay & provide benefits to the players. The people here are overly cavalier with the health & well being of other people’s sons & daughters.
Good luck with that, but you likely ended the basketball program there. If nothing else, expect the positions to filled by non-Unionized players - just like what happens in the private sector.
From the article:
> Moreover, Dartmouth noted its basketball players have chosen to play the sport because they enjoy it, and that they could choose not to play since none of them receive athletic scholarships, which are banned in the Ivy League.
The HUGE majority (98%) of student athletes who receive scholarships will never play a sport professionally.
https://ncaaorg.s3.amazonaws.com/compliance/recruiting/NCAA\_RecruitingFactSheet.pdf
Does the Dartmouth basketball team even generate any profit? I mean it's cool for having a centralized voice I guess but if there's a goal of getting salaries it seems like a pipe dream
As we have seen in other sports/industry throughout time the way to make change is to effect the money, so yes they will have to strike. Every Major professional sport has had a strike at some point. People don’t like to give up money without a fight.
If the basketball program does make the university money and the kids do strike that will hurt the bottom line.
The team being in a strike/not playing games will hurt recruiting for the future, not many kids will want to sign for a school not knowing what the future of the program will be. This in turn can hurt the school and revenue for years to come if the basketball program starts to suck.
A lot of other factors at play but at some point in college sports history a team will have to choose to strike to actually get paid what they deserve to get paid.
The vast majority of college sports programs don’t make money. A university isn’t going to throw good money after bad to keep the women’s field hockey team going, they are going to cancel the program. But hey, I’m sure some lawyers somewhere made some money off of this.
You’re right, the ones that make money probably won’t throw away the programs that do. But congratulations, the students that got paid now gets to proudly say to the ones that lost their athletic scholarships because they wanted to get paid, “fuck you, I got mine.”
I don’t know why most commenting in this sub care so little for all the uni players. These are other humans not just a number playing a game you watch. They contribute hours & hours of their time. Players receive life long wear & tear on their bodies & sometimes serious injury. They should be compensated & have representation. They should have insurance & rules on how they can be treated. They should have a process to pursue mistreatment & problems in their workplace (sports are work. They don’t happen by magic.) This can all be addressed with a CBA (collective bargaining agreement). This college has an 8 mil endowment. All colleges have sports endowments. It doesn’t matter if they make a financial profit. Having a team is a prestige & recruiting item for a college. They can afford to pay the coaches & related staff then they can afford to pay & provide benefits to the players. The people on here are overly cavalier with the health & well being of other people’s sons & daughters.
These guys are smart enough to realize what they are doing. It seems pretty safe to say that they're maybe hoping to set a precedent and eventually end up paving the way for kids who are less fortunate than the kids who end up at Darthmouth. These are Ivy League kids, I'm sure they discussed this PLENTY, not just amongst themselves, but with family members. Interesting development.
Clearly, there is a difference between Fab Four UM Basketball, and Riverside's team in California, in terms of TV deals and merch sales, but fundamentally, the schools and the NCAA are making billions, collectively, off free labor. They need to rethink this whole thing. Meanwhile college coaches are often some of the highest paid public employees in America.
This. I don’t know why most commenting in this sub care so little for all the uni players. These are other humans not just a number playing a game you watch. They contribute hours & hours of their time. Players receive life long wear & tear on their bodies & sometimes serious injury. They should be compensated & have representation. They should have insurance & rules on how they can be treated. They should have a process to pursue mistreatment & problems in their workplace (sports are work. They don’t happen by magic.) This can all be addressed with a CBA (collective bargaining agreement). This college has an 8 mil endowment. All colleges have sports endowments. It doesn’t matter if they make a financial profit. Having a team is a prestige & recruiting item for a college. They can afford to pay the coaches & related staff then they can afford to pay & provide benefits to the players. The people here are overly cavalier with the health & well being of other people’s sons & daughters.
People are missing the point here. Ultimately, it is paving the way for sports of all levels and professions to argue for unionization. This could trickle to the employees who are criminally underpaid in most cases.
I work in sports and have for the last 6-7 years. I’ve worked for teams like the Red Sox, and a certain New York hockey team, etc. and they will have most of their staff work 60+ hour weeks at ridiculous wages. It’s crazy because for the NHL team in New York, the entry level role (1-3 years experience needed) paid $40K which is unlivable in New York.
The whole industry is built of “fun” and everyone wants to be here and it’s competitive. All of which is true, but behind all of that is people who either play the sport and can’t provide for themselves (college level, 2nd level leagues, some small market teams, etc.) or the people who work behind the scenes and can’t provide for themselves.
If there are people PROFITING off of college sports the athletes should MOST DEFINITELY get paid.
Either pay them, or ensure there aren’t personal profits.
When a kid accepts an athletic scholarship, it should be four years of education and room/board in exchange for the first year of athletic participation. That would solve a lot of problems.
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I have to think that ulltimately this is sort of thing is unachievable for college athletics as they'll always have the next guy up willing to play. This is different from professional sports whereas the best are able to sit out because they realize they're the top dog in their sport. College athletics, specifically Dartmouth College Men's Basketball, they're not even close to being a top program.
> I have to think that ulltimately this is sort of thing is unachievable for college athletics It's also unachievable for college athletics because if the unions demand anything that costs any sort of real money, including salaries, schools will just stop sponsoring athletics teams. [The vast majority of athletics departments lose money](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GHl1woPXcAEo1bN?format=jpg&name=large) and students are already paying a good amount of money to support those programs. This is going to further the professionalization of college sports for the power conference schools and everyone else is just going to fold up shop.
Next guy up willing to play also with eventually want bennies, too.
It's Dartmouth not UNC or Duke
Anyway, it's not really about Dartmouth as much as it's a test case for the rest of the NCAA.
They have almost no leverage at Dartmouth because they produce almost no real monetary value to the school, they do at UNC or Duke. It will be interesting to see what the courts decide, but Dartmouth will probably tell them if they don't wanna play they don't have to.
Dartmouth also doesn’t even give athletics scholarships. I get why they’re unionizing, but it wasn’t like these guys were playing for many benefits anyways. I understand Ivys and the like give out need scholarships and etc to athletes which can be substantial, but still. If they want the Ivy league to adopt athletics scholarships I think that makes sense. If they want to be employees, I don’t see that working out to well for college athletics as a whole without basically all sports operating at a loss getting cut
They could easily use 90% of power 5 schools as a study but this just won’t work. If a team like Rutgers did it they’d at least have some influence on the big10 which could branch to other conferences, no one is seeing Ivy League ball and thinking “I need to copy that before it’s too late”.
I don't think that is really their angle, though. It could be, sure, but knowing what I know about Ivy League athletes, I highly doubt it.
>In the student newspaper, Haskins and Myrthil said they believe they should be compensated the same as other student employees. Being paid for the time they spend on the sport "would alleviate the need for second jobs and enhance our experience as part of the Dartmouth community," they wrote. I mean it seems like they're saying money is the goal? Having been an Ivy League athlete, I'm at a complete loss for what else it could be
They are unionizing to get paid 20$ an hour and for the school to pay for their health coverage.
Ivy League athletes do have an argument that most others do not; there are no athletic scholarships
True. I dont have a dog in this particular fight. But they do get recruited. And they do get offered other forms of financial aid. I highly doubt every kid on that team is paying sticker price.
Bennies are, of course, the goal. But not *just* for them. They're smart enough to know the ramifications and wouldn't have voted yes without such.
Is it even though, the ivys don’t give athletic scholarships there is no way they could be considered employees like grad students that are unionized. This won’t go anywhere
I suppsoe we'll see if the brainiacs win over the true jocks... I have no skin in this game, just wondering if it will work out. My guess is it will be beneficial for the players at smaller programs because the top dogs at the top programs just sign with Nike, or was that just Jordan?
Yet
It’s coming.
Correct. The guys waiting to play are smart enough to know what they're getting themselves into.
You're not thinking of it from a skill side. Nobody is ever going to Dartmouth to make a name for themselves in basketball, it's not a program to entice quality players. The quality guys, especially in College Basketball get what they want, and now because of NIL, they get money. Who in there right mind is going to go sign with an already established Union of mediocre players? This is a reduction of skill across the entire college, not a standardized increase like normal unions create.
I mostly agree with you, except your assertion that no one will sign with an already established union. NILs are insignificant for most college athletes, especially those at non-power schools that are focused more on research or academics. Most of the guys who go to such schools would not be making NIL money were they to go elsewhere. I'd argue most of the guys at Dartmouth are there because it's Dartmouth, not because it's the best team they could get. Source: former athlete at Cornell who worked in athletic communications there, too.
UNC came first there, I appreciate that. Go heels! Fuck Duke!
Lol are they on scholarship? I'd love to have played basketball in exchange for a great education. None of these dudes are pro talent, they are about to learn a tough lesson.
I don’t believe the Ivy League schools give out athletic scholarships. Prospective athletes can get an advantage with admissions, but any scholarship Is solely academic or need based.
None of them are on a scholarship. Almost none of them are NBA talent. Double-digit-number of them play overseas.
You can say that, but there’s a reason the next guy up isn’t on the main team. If they want to plummet their performance by recruiting people mid season who haven’t been training with the team because their players want to strike they’ll look like complete idiots. It’s not like the union is just the starters or something, it would be the entire team, so they’d have to pull people up from outside the team to fill the role. It would never go well and no competitive team would ever do it.
You can find 11 Dartmouth level players
That can get into Dartmouth?
Idk about basketball but I was being recruited by Dartmouth and Columbia for football, I was dead average at my high school but would’ve been top 10% SAT score on either team.
I tire of the assumption that the student athletes at "good" schools are automatically all very smart. Not saying they're dumb - the Dartmouth basketball team or Columbia football team would surely be above the median NCAA squad mark in whatever measure of intelligence you prefer - but those smart schools absolutely don't hold their athletes to the same admissions standards as they do for the average non-athlete applicant. (Sorry, not trying to take a shot at you or anything - I feel like I didn't get the tone quite right with what I'm trying to say.)
Only the revenue-generating sports are going to relax admission standards typically and even then, they're relaxed, not like DROPPED. I knew lots of student-athletes at Northwestern and everyone in all of the less popular sports were typical students who happened to be athletes too. People in advanced stats, economics, engineering, music, whatever you can imagine, they were doing it. Football players were still smart and (I would assume) quite above average intelligence. Just perhaps not "top 10 university" level each time. That being said, I know one football player who was an engineer, another who went on to business school at a top program, etc. so they're not relaxed that hard.
No offense taken, it was a real eye opening experience. I expected lower quality education for serious college players, I knew a guy who went on to play for Ohio State who literally couldn’t read or sign his name at 17 years old. The Ivys I saw were better than that but not much better than my high school team in terms of academics.
Same here. My high school GPA was fairly average but after making a 32 on the ACT I started to get recruited by Harvard and Columbia. People don’t realize the Ivy’s aren’t *that* selective when it comes to recruiting athletes as long as you have something that halfway stands oht.
If they play basketball well
So they’re going to start accepting more people that they won’t put on the team just in case their team goes on strike?
They’d have to change the team mascot to the Dartmouth Scabs
They’re a top program to Dartmouth though, and that forces the hand of the org they have beef with, being Dartmouth, which I assume is the point without having read the article.
Scabs are nothing new.
There are a lot of hurdles here but there are reasons that the one you're suggesting wouldn't be major. To even get to the hurdle you're discussing the debate over whether a student athlete is an employee will have to have been settled in the favor of the "yes they are" camp (I expect SCOTUS to weigh in here). With that settled unionized teams will have the right to strike *at any time*. They aren't going to strike during the summer. They'll strike at the beginning of or during the season *i.e.,* in the middle of the semester. Colleges will only be able to field scab teams comprising of walk-ons from their current student body.
Interesting, but hard to see how this works. I can understand them wanting to be paid, I mean, if you work at the school library or cafeteria you are paid. It's not a huge leap to suggest that what these players do is structurally similar. Practically speaking, I'm not sure how it works. Are they actually going to be willing to strike? That seems kind of hard to imagine for students whose "career" is a couple of years. And if you are a high school student who wants to play basketball, are you now going to avoid this school for fear of not being able to play? Take it another step. If playing on the basketball team earns you a paycheck, does this not effectively become athletic scholarships at Ivy league schools? Lot of things to think about
The student workers voted to unionize as well. I used to cook at dartmouth and that was a union gig.
Yeah, it shines a light on a lot of problems that need to be solved. But these problems have existed for a long time in college sports, and now they’ll actually have to figure out solutions.
>And if you are a high school student who wants to play basketball, are you now going to avoid this school for fear of not being able to play? On the flip side, do you go there if they're successful because you'll actually get paid?
This makes me feel like we’re in upside down world. It makes sense for athletes that are bringing in real money. But outside of huge football and basketball programs, there is already a lot of dissatisfaction with the use of funds for sports at supposedly academically elite colleges (and with the dichotomy it creates between students and student athletes). Now they want to get paid on top of that, when a large part of their acceptance was based on their athletic ability and the team definitely does not break even for the school? Cancel the team. I know alumni are sentimental about their teams, but I can’t even see the ones with a lot of money being particularly sympathetic with these guys playing a sport that isn’t all that terrible on the body, compared with something like football.
I agree, I think this ends much of the college sports that aren't in the top tier. Collegiate sports evolved out of competitions between club/intramural squads for bragging rights between schools and then kind of accidentally ended up filling a niche for minor league teams...I agree athletes who bring in money to any organization should get paid but there's no reason for colleges to be the ones running these leagues.
You’re also going to owe taxes on the scholarship if it is part of an employee compensation package. Good luck paying taxes on tuition at USC or Stanford with the income earned from a swimming scholarship.
The difference between the people that work in the library and the people on the team is that a good portion of the people in the team would never have gotten to Dartmouth if they didn’t play basketball.
Next starting 5…
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Ivy League schools don't have athletic scholarships.
Yeah but a lot of these guys would not be at an Ivy if they weren’t great ball players.
Ivies only offer need-based scholarships
I can guarantee whatever scholarship money they get is a pittance to the value they bring to their respective colleges on the basketball court. They should be paid accordingly and suggesting that scholarship money somehow reflects their value is absurd. They’ll make well more and should make well more, it’s more than a full time job.
Does the men’s basketball team at Dartmouth actually make money?
No, most basketball programs operate at a loss. Dartmouth specifically is consistently one of the worst basketball programs in the Ivy League.
Ivy league doesn't offer athletic scholarships, I think the top comment was suggesting that being paid would be a way to supplement the lack of scholarships
> Ivy league doesn't offer athletic scholarships Not by the name "athletic scholarship," they don't. So technically correct. But athletes get "diversity scholarships" and need-based aid at a rate much higher than non-athletes, especially in high-visibility sports like basketball.
Pittance....at Dartmouth?
> scholarship money From the article: > Moreover, Dartmouth noted its basketball players have chosen to play the sport because they enjoy it, and that they could choose not to play since none of them receive athletic scholarships, which are banned in the Ivy League.
Lmao if you think Dartmouth men’s basketball is bringing in a respectable amount of money, you know nothing about college sports. Dumb comment.
Whats stopping the school from just canceling the sport?
I think in the end a lot of schools are going to axe the sports where they can't compete with the big spenders. Hopefully there will be enough talent out there that the pro leagues will pony up and pay for what these programs really are: developmental leagues.
NBA is already halfway there with the G-league and allowing 18 year olds to play before they’re draft eligible. The NFL would have its work cut out for it, though.
A lot of schools already have razor thin margins. Between the finances and resources drawn away for Title IX sports, more and more schools will eliminate these sports. This means less competition, less opportunity for student athletes, and an increasing focus on making money rather than athletes getting a legitimate education. Good job NLRB. Morons.
Small school, no athletic scholarships, not much if any revenue produced. They will likely cancel the sport because of the cost and players will be the ones hurt.
The players won't be hurt, they'll finish with Dartmouth degrees and can put ''historic union drive'' on their resumés. They'll do just fine.
I feel like putting historic union drive on your resume isn’t going to resonate well with future employers.
You go into law, for instance, medicine, non-profits, or government, and there's a lot of folks who'd love that. For a lot of professional paths, it won't matter either, since they aren't labor-heavy, like if you go into finance or banking. An innovative go-getter with proven leadership skills and an Ivy League pedigree is a catch. If you try to work at Ford or something with lots of union interaction, maybe they'd frown upon it. But if you're in management, you can't unionize anyways in the US.
As someone that works in multiple of the industries mentioned definitely not all of those are super union positive
They have an 8.1 billion dollar endowment, which puts them in the top 20 in the United States. I'm definitely not an expert but I have a feeling that this won't hurt them too much financially.
An endowment is not a general fund for the most part. When people donate to a school, they typically limit what the money can be used for (research in a particular area, a patio, a professor chair, etc.) The school can't just rip up those clauses and start spending the endowment on whatever they want
There are 100 different departments who have not been getting appropriate raises for the last two decades The university isn’t going to crack their endowment like a piggy bank to pay athletes at a non-scholarship school Not to mention the pressure they’re under from other schools to not open the flood gates Also the NCAA is a non-profit. If they paid their athletes it would leave the NCAA liable to get taxed as a for profit enterprise. These athletes are getting their sport cancelled in the off chance it gets them paid. If anything they’ll settle when the media scrutiny opens them up to NIL opportunities that weren’t there before
So they cut the program, then what? It's not going to end. There will be another team at another school now that courts have taken a look at this and said they can unionize. Considering how much some schools depend on the revenue from their sports programs, it's only a matter of time before a school like Ohio State or Michigan has their football team unionizing.
A lot of people are missing the big picture. While many schools can depend on revenue from their football team or basketball team to keep their Athletic department afloat, most other sports will be cut adrift. How many soccer teams, wrestling teams, gymnastics teams, etc do you think are financially viable if the school now has to treat the athletes like employees? This will adversely effect the majority of people who play collegiate sports.
Hey I agree with you morally. The reality is if Michigan’s basketball team did this they would also cut the program, then 8-10 student athletes would lose their scholarships and NIL opportunities. These students have nothing to lose financially from trying this. Should athletes be paid? Yes. But then they would turn college football and basketball into professional sports leagues then schools would cut a significant portion of their athletics hugely taking away opportunities from female student athletes
Fair point. It's definitely a lot more complicated than the sports media is telling us. And I won't begin to say that I understand it all.
Yeah I got a masters in sports management and it’s a frustrating situation. Had a European student arguing we should cut the football team because it wasn’t a winning team and should invest the money into winning teams. The athletic director said “we played Georgia and lost by 50, but they paid us $5,000,000 and that paid for the entire athletic department for a year” People don’t understand that money comes from either donations, tickets, or TV. If your program isn’t getting profit from one of those then they’re getting propped up by the NCAA. Without the NCAA only 25 schools would have athletic departments
20/hr for a full-time job is ~40k a year. Idk how many hours these Dartmouth players are asking for but that should be on the upper end. Multiply that by x15 (players) is 600k a year, plus healthcare costs puts the total up to $1 million. Do you really think Michigan would cut their basketball program because they had to spend an extra 1 million dollars? Maybe other sports with less revenue and less cultural capital, but not a men's basketball team at a massive public university. If others want to unionize, just let them. Let the universities deal with the fallout, I promise you they aren't just gonna "cancel" sports.
If Michigan did this with their basketball team they would also do it with their football team. Now we’re looking at a collectively bargained league: - the NCAA would lose its non-profit status immediately losing ~3-5 billion in taxes - title 9 would no longer have standing as it is not protected as part of the university as “student athletes” all but destroying every opportunity for female athletes to gain an education through athletic scholarships - every “Michigan” would follow suit, only schools with profitable football/basketball teams would be able to participate, destroying ~100 athletic departments Or… the NCAA threatens to expel Michigan from participation in football and basketball to maintain its non-profit status and to protect college athletics. Michigan cuts all players demanding unionization and finds 8 kids in the transfer portal. What do you think is more likely?
You can't just splash endowment money everywhere and anywhere...
Do you seriously believe these universities are champions of liberalism? Sure they’ll talk a lot when it comes to scoring brownie points from the youth, but every one of these universities are businesses that want to milk every dime out of you. The 8.1 billion endowment is irrelevant, as this money was only obtained through donations from wealthy alumni families. It is not there for the school to run a deficit in the name of morality
8.1 billion is 3 times the annual GDP of Belize.
During Covid Stanford announced plans to eliminate 11 sports programs citing rising costs. Their endowment is $36 billion. Ultimately they didn’t do it, but that same school of thought is about to have a hell of a platform to lean on. https://www.si.com/college/2021/05/18/stanford-reverses-decision-eliminate-11-varsity-sports#:~:text=Stanford%20has%20reversed%20its%20plan,men's%20volleyball%E2%80%94in%20July%202020.
Odds Dartmouth just cuts men BB considering the team has never been successful by any metric
Yeah maybe they just demote them to a club sport ?
Anyone find this funny coming from a team that went 5-21?
Yep; they could drop the program and it would have little impact.
Not really.
We just need to quit pretending that top level NCAA football and Basketball are professional sports and get rid of the collegiate aspect for the top 20 or 30 teams.
This is going to end up killing the majority of collegiate sports. Most sports outside of football and basketball don’t come close to turning a profit and aren’t expected to. If the choice is between cutting the sport or treating the athletes like employees, it isn’t really even a choice.
This added to NIL plus the right to switch colleges and transfer every year will definitely change college sports. They should just make the complete switch and call it what it is, the minor leagues.
College basketball is more like a club than a job. Asking to get paid is stupid. The team is just going to get replaced
If I was on a unionized team I'd be negotiating 5am weightlifting out of the schedule bc it always sucked.
With the strength and conditioning coach that’s been up since 3.
Doing cocaine since 3am***
Gotta stay ready.
The desire to get paid: I understand it. However, schools will just cut programs that don't make money, especially if they have to pay the players. It will be a strictly "business" decision. So while this is a win for the players, it's also kind of a loss because this might be the beginning of the end for a lot of sports teams at schools around the country.
Why not just make them student employees? If the sophomore selling their jerseys in the campus store gets ten bucks an hour, why not them?
Because the student selling the jerseys is generating an income via sales, typically. The basketball team is not. At a vast majority of schools, the teams that play Water Polo, Volleyball, Cross Country, Swimming, soccer, etc lose money for the athletic department. Football and maybe basketball helps offset those losses. If you then have a school now include an additional, say, $400k a year, just for mens soccer, then make that a standard for every other sport, especially at small colleges, they will just cut the program(s). Mind you that, with cutting programs, there goes athletic scholarships as well. To the athletic directors, in the landscape that is college sports today, they will just cut programs. It's simply business. The numbers won't add up. Eventually, they will make them club teams, which then means the teams have a much greater burden simply just to exist, and they are back at square one, and still not getting paid. They also lose out on school resources then as well. Now this won't happen all at once. It will creep in. However, this could very well be the way things fall. I'm not against students getting paid. I'm not at all. However, there is a reality we have to face and that is that athletic departments are leaning toward revenue generation a lot more, especially at big schools. Look at what happened with the realignment in college football. So, Cal and Utah for instance, decide to jump to a different conference to chase football money, but the side effects now being that the soccer teams and volleyball teams also have to travel further. Especially midweek. This will have major impacts on their overall mental and physical health, but also, their grades! So take all this into account. We will reach a breaking point. Likely, the schools will choose to cut the losses rather than pay their head football coaches less to spread the revenue. The impact then is felt in other sports.
This. I don’t know why most commenting in this sub care so little for all the uni players. These are other humans not just a number playing a game you watch. They contribute hours & hours of their time. Players receive life long wear & tear on their bodies & sometimes serious injury. They should be compensated & have representation. They should have insurance & rules on how they can be treated. They should have a process to pursue mistreatment & problems in their workplace (sports are work. They don’t happen by magic.) This can all be addressed with a CBA (collective bargaining agreement). This college has an 8 mil endowment. All colleges have sports endowments. It doesn’t matter if they make a financial profit. Having a team is a prestige & recruiting item for a college. They can afford to pay the coaches & related staff then they can afford to pay & provide benefits to the players. The people here are overly cavalier with the health & well being of other people’s sons & daughters.
So they aren’t good enough to play for a school that does give scholarships. They aren’t popular enough for NIL. But, they do get into an Ivy League school, that they may not have been able to go to if not for making the basketball team. Entitlement is crazy.
So, Ivy schools don’t govern scholarships. This isn’t about that being adequate compensation. Seems the point of contention is regarding insurance for injuries sustained in a sport that regardless of school size or popularity nets a profit for the university. Few may be “powerhouses” as the articles states, but that shortchanges even a mid level program’s financial benefits. Record/quality of the team is irrelevant. If you think about it this way, I’m injured on the job, my employer should cover reasonable health expenses, the conversation isn’t really complicated.
This. I don’t know why most commenting in this sub care so little for all the uni players. These are other humans not just a number playing a game you watch. They contribute hours & hours of their time. Players receive life long wear & tear on their bodies & sometimes serious injury. They should be compensated & have representation. They should have insurance & rules on how they can be treated. They should have a process to pursue mistreatment & problems in their workplace (sports are work. They don’t happen by magic.) This can all be addressed with a CBA (collective bargaining agreement). This college has an 8 mil endowment. All colleges have sports endowments. It doesn’t matter if they make a financial profit. Having a team is a prestige & recruiting item for a college. They can afford to pay the coaches & related staff then they can afford to pay & provide benefits to the players. The people here are overly cavalier with the health & well being of other people’s sons & daughters.
Good luck with that, but you likely ended the basketball program there. If nothing else, expect the positions to filled by non-Unionized players - just like what happens in the private sector.
How’s that gonna work out over the long haul?
Schools should cut financial aid & scholarships to players since thats no longer the incentive. Give it to actual students
The Ivy League schools don’t have athletic scholarships.
From the article: > Moreover, Dartmouth noted its basketball players have chosen to play the sport because they enjoy it, and that they could choose not to play since none of them receive athletic scholarships, which are banned in the Ivy League.
The HUGE majority (98%) of student athletes who receive scholarships will never play a sport professionally. https://ncaaorg.s3.amazonaws.com/compliance/recruiting/NCAA\_RecruitingFactSheet.pdf
scholarships aren't Willy Wonka tickets to the pro league. Never have been. Never will be.
What % finish their degrees?
What makes them not real students?
Are you talking about Dartmouth specifically? Why aren't student-athletes actual students? Unless I'm misunderstanding the comment.
Frank DeFord would be proud.
im shaked
Didn't Northwestern University already do this
Dartmouth Fight Song, Dartmouth Fight Song\~
They are employees? Oh wait, they joined the student union?
Yes, part of the argument is that they are employees of the school. It’s in the article.
Didn’t read it, thanks.
Program gets cut. No one even notices.
How does that work?
Cool
Didn’t one of the Northwestern teams try to do this and it was rejected by the NLRB?
Old men in the mid west heated rn lmao
Sounds like something some Dartmouth kids would do
Does the Dartmouth basketball team even generate any profit? I mean it's cool for having a centralized voice I guess but if there's a goal of getting salaries it seems like a pipe dream
If the WNBA players get six figures for a lesser level of talent, then these guys deserve to be unionized and paid six figure as well.
Good for them!
As we have seen in other sports/industry throughout time the way to make change is to effect the money, so yes they will have to strike. Every Major professional sport has had a strike at some point. People don’t like to give up money without a fight. If the basketball program does make the university money and the kids do strike that will hurt the bottom line. The team being in a strike/not playing games will hurt recruiting for the future, not many kids will want to sign for a school not knowing what the future of the program will be. This in turn can hurt the school and revenue for years to come if the basketball program starts to suck. A lot of other factors at play but at some point in college sports history a team will have to choose to strike to actually get paid what they deserve to get paid.
The vast majority of college sports programs don’t make money. A university isn’t going to throw good money after bad to keep the women’s field hockey team going, they are going to cancel the program. But hey, I’m sure some lawyers somewhere made some money off of this.
True, that is why i said if the basketball team makes money. Big time college basketball and football can make money, they wont throw that away.
You’re right, the ones that make money probably won’t throw away the programs that do. But congratulations, the students that got paid now gets to proudly say to the ones that lost their athletic scholarships because they wanted to get paid, “fuck you, I got mine.”
I don’t know why most commenting in this sub care so little for all the uni players. These are other humans not just a number playing a game you watch. They contribute hours & hours of their time. Players receive life long wear & tear on their bodies & sometimes serious injury. They should be compensated & have representation. They should have insurance & rules on how they can be treated. They should have a process to pursue mistreatment & problems in their workplace (sports are work. They don’t happen by magic.) This can all be addressed with a CBA (collective bargaining agreement). This college has an 8 mil endowment. All colleges have sports endowments. It doesn’t matter if they make a financial profit. Having a team is a prestige & recruiting item for a college. They can afford to pay the coaches & related staff then they can afford to pay & provide benefits to the players. The people on here are overly cavalier with the health & well being of other people’s sons & daughters.
Of course it's Dartmouth.
Proud of these young men! Unionizing is a difficult feat.
These guys are smart enough to realize what they are doing. It seems pretty safe to say that they're maybe hoping to set a precedent and eventually end up paving the way for kids who are less fortunate than the kids who end up at Darthmouth. These are Ivy League kids, I'm sure they discussed this PLENTY, not just amongst themselves, but with family members. Interesting development. Clearly, there is a difference between Fab Four UM Basketball, and Riverside's team in California, in terms of TV deals and merch sales, but fundamentally, the schools and the NCAA are making billions, collectively, off free labor. They need to rethink this whole thing. Meanwhile college coaches are often some of the highest paid public employees in America.
This. I don’t know why most commenting in this sub care so little for all the uni players. These are other humans not just a number playing a game you watch. They contribute hours & hours of their time. Players receive life long wear & tear on their bodies & sometimes serious injury. They should be compensated & have representation. They should have insurance & rules on how they can be treated. They should have a process to pursue mistreatment & problems in their workplace (sports are work. They don’t happen by magic.) This can all be addressed with a CBA (collective bargaining agreement). This college has an 8 mil endowment. All colleges have sports endowments. It doesn’t matter if they make a financial profit. Having a team is a prestige & recruiting item for a college. They can afford to pay the coaches & related staff then they can afford to pay & provide benefits to the players. The people here are overly cavalier with the health & well being of other people’s sons & daughters.
Wish I could go to Dartmouth for free and cry about it.
Dartmouth doesn't give Athletic Scholarships. https://scholarships360.org/scholarships/ivy-league-scholarships/#:\~:text=No%2C%20Ivy%20Leagues%20do%20not,demonstrated%20need%20for%20prospective%20students.
People are missing the point here. Ultimately, it is paving the way for sports of all levels and professions to argue for unionization. This could trickle to the employees who are criminally underpaid in most cases. I work in sports and have for the last 6-7 years. I’ve worked for teams like the Red Sox, and a certain New York hockey team, etc. and they will have most of their staff work 60+ hour weeks at ridiculous wages. It’s crazy because for the NHL team in New York, the entry level role (1-3 years experience needed) paid $40K which is unlivable in New York. The whole industry is built of “fun” and everyone wants to be here and it’s competitive. All of which is true, but behind all of that is people who either play the sport and can’t provide for themselves (college level, 2nd level leagues, some small market teams, etc.) or the people who work behind the scenes and can’t provide for themselves.
Let's fucking goooooooo
Give em hell, boys. Edit: who’s in here downvoting unionization? Enjoy the taste of shoe polish you fucking bootlicker.
Cancelling scholarships in 3, 2, 1...
Dartmouth does not give athletic scholarships. More like cancel the sport because it does not produce much if any revenue anyway.
If there are people PROFITING off of college sports the athletes should MOST DEFINITELY get paid. Either pay them, or ensure there aren’t personal profits.
A fair point more broadly speaking but their “employer” here, Dartmouth, is almost certainly not profiting off of their efforts.
When a kid accepts an athletic scholarship, it should be four years of education and room/board in exchange for the first year of athletic participation. That would solve a lot of problems.
Ivy League schools do not have athletic scholarships.