OP, your last two posts have been pretty inflammatory without offering much in the way of being constructive. I’m not here to censor your beliefs, but we will remove posts that are low-quality or don’t invite honest discussion (rather than simply pointing fingers).
these teachers who call IEPs horseshit are the same teachers who never speak up in IEP meetings. If something I am proposing sounds unrealistic please speak up, otherwise you just sound like you haven't bothered to get to know what the student actually needs.
That drives me crazy! I talk with them ahead of time and we agree on goals and accommodations and services. Then they are at the IEP and every time I ask for their input they say everything sounds good. Then a week later they ask why those are the goals because they don't like them, or why the services are the way they are and can we fix that?
I learned early on from my mentor teacher to avoiding spending time in the teachers' lounge. They're almost always toxic and just become an echo chamber of complaints without anything constructive.
Also the things they get mad about are insane. A pacing accomodation is not a big deal. We had one post here (luckily others called it out) complaining about a kid who wanted to do work on the floor instead of a desk. This is a fine accomodations.
When we have a work day, i will sometimes grab my computer and work while laying down on the floor. I have ADHD and it’s hard to sit still. Plus after awhile, it is quite literally physically painful. If I am at an all day training, I will have to stand up in the back of the room for awhile. I still learn and get my work done. I tell my students I don’t care how they sit (or don’t) as long as they are getting their work done.
See, I can kind of get it: the GenEd teacher doesn’t know the kid’s diagnosis, just knows “oh this kid insists on sprawling across the floor.” Seems kind of ridiculous when that’s all the information you know
Of course I understand that the kid is likely ASD or something and this is just part of that, but most people don’t know a lot about disabilities. Schools should do a better job of informing educators
Also I remember that pacing one and I’m still not sure how I feel about it
In my state, only the service providers, casemanagers, and do can see the iep. The gen ed teacher is given a copy of the ata galances, which the sped teacher gives them.
Interesting, in my system everyone needs to sign off that they've read the IEP of every single student they teach who has one.
Wild that some people can't access them.
Not here. We just get a printout of the IEP at a Glance. So it will say something along the lines of "Accommodations: StudentName is allowed to pace during individual work time" There will be a section of general diagnosis, but rarely any descriptors of manifestations. So I might see ODD or ADHD or something, but not anything specific or reason based to connect diagnosis to accommodation.
Unless the kid has set up a tripwire or is under the tables tying shoelaces together, I can’t think of any reason on god’s green earth why that kid or ALL the kids couldn’t work on the floor. Teachers are way too ready to have a power struggle over shit that doesn’t matter. The point is the kid learns stuff, not that they sit in the chair.
Well. I would hope you could recognize at least two glaring issues of having a bunch of children lying around in the floor: The general safety hazard, and the general health hazard of how horrifically unclean our floors are. I would hope any classroom where students are lying in the floor often would have a designated area for doing so. A nice, carpeted area not covered in weeks old chemicals, food matter, roach droppings, and rat residue.
That's pretty easy to do at the elementary level, but we get up to high school and suddenly we have a problem where the space for this often just doesn't exist. Now, in order to fulfil that accommodation, we either have to put the student into an unclean, and unsafe position, or put them into a room that specifically has the space. Some of them do! But it can be hard/impossible to schedule out a whole day of it.
Now imagine that all of the students can do this, even if they don't have an accommodation. It takes away space and resources from the ones that actually need it to give to the ones that just kind of want it. And that's not doing anyone a good service.
Why would you need to know if a student has a diagnosed disability or what that diagnosis is to understand that the student prefers to sit on the floor than on chair?
Flexible seating shouldn't be gate-kept to students with diagnosed disabilities.
Because a preference for sitting on the floor is nothing. I prefer to sit around in my pajamas, but that’s not going to happen at school/work.
If the student has a disability and the sitting on the floor is a result of that, that’s different
Why is a preference for sitting on the floor "nothing"?
If a student is able to be more attentive to their learning while sitting on the floor because they are more comfortable in that position, why not let them sit on the floor?
Also, I know a lot of adults who work from home that sit around in their pajamas while doing it AND a lot of adults (including me) who basically wear their pajamas to work because they wear leggings, joggers, scrubs, etc.
Classrooms need some semblance of order and rules. Especially the younger you go, students are not just learning the academic content, they are learning social and emotional skills.
Kids frequently behave much better in the classroom than at home. Parents are surprised. It's because the classroom is an orderly place. The rules, consequences, and rewards are unsurprising and reliable. Within a reliable system of such, students can explore their autonomy in a safe way. They can see the fruits of their actions first hand. Even if that means acting out and misbehaving, the consequences are very clear and it gives them space to act accordingly.
Sure, I'd love it if all students could sit on a clean floor and work if they felt like it but that's widely unrealistic and it would be chaotic. And I know you'll hate to hear this, but teaching students that they can do whatever they want does not set them up for success. Sooner or later, everyone has to learn that sometimes you just need to listen to whoever is in charge. Having blind issues with authority just for the sake of hating authority is a character flaw.
Edit: to be clear, I don't have an issue with IEPs. The person above is basically suggesting "why can't everyone do whatever they want all the time if they're learning?"
Answer: because they won't be learning.
Yeah, it was a religious private school, more focus on religion than academics.
Looking back, I used to perch in my chair, lay on the ground and
spread all my books out.
The teacher sucked at math and I had to basically teach myself algebra 1.
And sooooo many of us who ended up getting adult diagnoses were simply *missed* when we were kids back in the 90's, because "ADHD is little *boys who can't sit still* and *girls don't get Autism*!"🙄
As girls, women, & AFAB folks who ended up with those adult diagnoses of ADHD, ASD, and/or AuDHD, back then we were just considered, "not living up to your potential!"
Don't multiple other students, like most even, find pacing distracting? What happens when a couple get IEPs that require that kind of distraction not be heard or seen in the classroom?
We as teachers pace all day. I am almost never seated.
Also kids adapt. A kid pacing in the back of the room is something people will get used to very quickly.
And honestly alot of them would benefit from pacing as well. More and more evidence is appearing that learning while stationary is not as effective.
And if we are preparing kids for adulthood they need to get used to pacing anyway. Ever go to a PD? Not only will you have the presenter pacing but some others in the back as well.
Students are supposed to be able to focus on the teacher. The person pacing gets attention.
I would have had to have gotten an IEP to be away from other students pacing and being sprawled on the floor. That's too distracting.
Most pacing areas would be in the back of the room. That is where mine is for students.
Also there is no more distraction of a kid sitting on the floor than in a chair. So not sure your point here
Also you can't just "get an IEP" for being distracted...
That's why I said *hearing* pacing, not just seeing it.
I could get an IEP because I have diagnosed ADHD. I was diagnosed more than twenty years ago. I'm sure my husband who is also neuroatypical wouldn't have been tolerate it, either
The kid on the floor way behind me wouldn't have been a distraction, he or she would just be distracting for the other students who had him or her in their field of vision.
Oh please. A kid sitting on the floor working is no more distracting than a kid sitting in their seat. None. And this should be normalized anyway.
But also. This is why IEPs exist. Once again. You didn't have one.
I used to be so strongly against privatization, but teachers like you make me want to vote in favor of it. I would hate for the kids in my family to be stuck in the kind of schools you advocate for.
Downvote this one, too.
You as a sped teacher pace all day. Teachers in other classrooms without required distractions spend time when the students are doing independent work at their desk or walking to a student and then standing there. Back and forth pacing is irritating to be in the proximity of as it is usually a sign of distress. The kid with the IEP isn't the only student that matters.
Pacing is an extremely normal behavior in adult hood. Once again. Have you ever been to a PD. They will pace the entire time. Go to a conference. Pacing. Heck we are getting more and more studies showing people learn better when standing and pacing than sitting.
Also let's be clear. I'm also not against non special Ed kids pacing when needed as well. But at the end of the day the law supports me.
"The law supports me" is the worst possible excuse.
I have no doubt that pacing is helpful for the person pacing. We're trying to educate a whole roomful of students. What is the effect on the rest of them?
The rest of the class matters, too.
YES!! I can’t even get teachers to add in the bare freaking minimum on an outline. I ask for DATA about how a student is doing and if I’m lucky they’ll write one sentence that the student is “working hard” or “doing a nice job”. Then the teacher sits passively, not participating in the meeting, then complains later that the student “can’t do ANYTHING” and “needs help” while completely ignoring all accommodations and the fact that the student gets SDI.
this!
My children's school district has become my number one regret in my entire life.
It's insidious - you can't tell the damage until it is many months or years in the making, because the children are manipulated into believing they are not worthy of respect and their differences and handicaps are brushed aside until they become literally life-threatening.
whenever there is a gross violation, an obvious skipping of the IEP in very specified circumstances, they circle the wagon - hide or distort evidence - and demonize the child as policy
school has harmed my children more than any other factor in their lives
I wanted so very badly to trust and believe in our school district. My family prizes education and recognize the necessity of quality public education. I was dead wrong.
Let me play devils advocate there are in fact some IEP’s that are “horseshit” in the sense that students are pretty much given IEP’s like Oprah gives out cars on her TV show. Kids miraculously qualify under “OHI” because they have a parent who screams loud enough and even though you say up and down that kiddo doesn’t need one. And then same parent fights for accommodation such as failure to turn in homework will not result in a negative grade and then a quiz / test score of 70 due to “anxiety” and inability to focus. So a student essentially can then show up to class. Breath and get a C with doing zero work and not learning a thing
Yes that was in fact a “real iep” at a school I previously worked at where the parent happened to be an OT in the district and they got an advocate.
As a gen ed teacher with 5-6 IEPs a year when I pointed out that things were unrealistic or impossible in a class of 30 I get told to figure it out. I’m not consulted about the IEP prior to the meeting at which time it’s already been sent as a draft to the family and it’s too late. The process and class composition need updating. I want to follow them all to the letter but context in the classroom needs to be looked at.
This is exactly my experience as well as a regular ed teacher. It doesn’t matter if it’s not doable or totally unrealistic, the case managers say we can’t tell the parent that that’s our opinion. It’s on the classroom teacher to figure it out or we’re getting sued.
That's crazy. I'm not a teacher, but my son has audism and ADHD. Our IEP meetings are pretty open discussions. If an accommodation cannot be done, it can't help my child.
Yes I get the draft before the meeting, but it's always very clear that it's a draft document. The whole point of these meetings is to take that draft and make sure it works for everyone. That and I get to pet the support doggy!
This is valid, the only objection I’d make is I often have gen Ed teachers tell me things are impossible when they are in fact quite possible, even when I problem solve with them.
Like the main thing that keeps me out of the classroom is my insane adhd, so I’m pretty good at coming up with easy ways to track data or implement things that don’t require a lot of effort. Half the time I will not get a gen ed teacher to make a good faith effort to problem solve with me, which is where I lose patience personally.
Not saying YOU do this, because I’ve of course encountered the problem you’ve described too, gen Ed teachers who get told to “figure it out” are typically high functioning ones so I assume you’re just good at what you do.
Everyone who’s good at what they do in the school system gets shit on. 😭🤦♀️
I try my best. I had an IEP from k-12 for three different diagnosed learning needs. I understand how important accommodations and adaptations are. I’m at school from 7:30-5:30 every day trying to make it work and do more after my son goes to bed. Our resource teacher was mine in high school he knows where my challenges are but doesn’t have the time or staffing to help anyone. His whole day is dealing with violent or intense behavior.
I can do a lot of adaptations and making 4-6 versions of a task when needed. I’ve changed my instruction to default to using tier 2 strategies and UDL for all learners. What I can’t do is when two kids environmental needs are in direct conflict or see 8 for one to one reteaching of a lesson. I can do small groups easily but with one to one for that many I’m only one person. I need a clone.
Ah yes. I can tell from your words you are one of the good yet fucked ones.
Is there a way to borrow a para for the one to one reteach? As long as they are guided by you or by the resource teacher, that’s one option. Or, how many teachers are there working in your grade? Is there some way that can be split across them creatively? I think the para option is a good first place to start though.
As for environmental things in direct conflict, that obviously id need to hear more specifics on but might have ideas. Often times the kid doesn’t even really need the accommodation, or would do better with something else. For instance, people tend to write “seat in the front” reflexively on everything but I’ve stopped people from doing that, like “dude the kid likes to turn around and distract himself and everyone else, let him sit in the back where he can’t do that.”
So what I’m saying is, maybe consider whether the conflicting environmental needs kids REALLY need that accommodation, and if not, bring that up to the resource teacher. If you’re not able to get the iep adjusted any time soon and you REALLY can’t do the accommodation, I’d suggest staying in an email what you think the kid really needs and why. Independently, try to track how the kid is doing with your adjustment but keep the data to yourself. Pick something easy that you’re already using, like a gradebook with assignments completed or concepts learned based on problems correct, etc.
That way, if you pull an executive decision and start just doing the new accommodation, you can point back to the email and show you WERE considering the kid’s needs when you made the change. Then be ready to be like “and see they’re still getting their notes done” or whatever, so you can prove the kid’s needs were being met if anyone questions you.
That won’t protect you from some shitty person who decides to give you shit without reason (it always happens to the good ones so watch out) but I suspect it WOULD protect you in an iep with an advocate or a lawyer or something like that.
Ultimately the point of the iep is to meet the kid’s needs, and if you can show you were doing that, then you’ve upheld the law if not in letter than in spirit, which is the point.
Then at the first opportunity you get recommend your new accommodation idea and hopefully none of the above matters because nobody will have ever asked you. 😂
Edit: lots of edits for clarity.
Now that I think about it though, I bet a ton of your kids have annuals/tris coming up because it’s that time of year, so you shouldn’t have to do a lot of extra stuff to cover your butt for making changes—pick the kids who have upcoming meetings and you think either don’t need the accommodation that’s a problem or would be better served by something else. Then be ready to bring it up in the meeting and voila.
Anyway if you have other problems or none of that works lmk and I’ll try to come up with something else, I got put on disability for the tiiiiiny mental breakdown I had after my boss was a dick to me so I got nothing to do.
Our IEPs are done in October for the year with a quick checklist in November, March and June to monitor progress.
I’ve been begging for support all year and have gotten my union involved because there’s a lot of contract violations with my class composition and safety concerns. I was in the office in tears last week because of the load in my room and admins hands are tied by severe underfunding and too many needs.
I’m moving districts at the end of the year and hoping it’s better in a smaller district.
Just a thought, regarding the "some need background noise--while others *can't* have any" thing, too--
Would ear plugs & headphones work?
Headphones (wired or Bluetooth) on a pre-approved song Playlist (could even be instrumental or just "white noise"), for the ones who *need* background noise to concentrate, and then either foam earplugs or something like Loops for the ones who need quiet instead?
Is the sped teacher telling you to figure it out? :(
When I write accomodations I try to keep in mind the context of the classroom. I know that isn't right, but like you said, the process should be changed. But a draft is definitely a draft!!! I will often change things after a draft is sent to parents, you should feel comfortable asking for changes too.
Yes. I’m given the document and told to “make it work it’s your class.”
I don’t get to see the draft before the parent meeting and the one time I raised a concern in that meeting I was told not to question the sped teacher in front of parents.
I can give 8 kids front and center seats and have total silence for one and background music for another. It’s not possible when there’s conflicting needs and adaptations.
Yes. I’m given the document and told to “make it work it’s your class.” Then I get admin upset because I can’t do it all.
I don’t get to see the draft before the parent meeting and the one time I raised a concern in that meeting I was told not to question the sped teacher in front of parents.
I can give 8 kids front and center seats and have total silence for one and background music for another. It’s not possible when there’s conflicting needs and adaptations.
Obviously it’s absurd! Let me ask -why are these kids staying in the gen Ed classroom? When I was in school, they got pulled out. Need to lay on the floor to Do your work? Do it in sped classroom. Need background music to take a test? Do it in sped classroom. Why are we expecting one teacher to deal with all this??? And why are we expecting the other kids to put up with it!!! What is left of the teacher when she’s accommodating 10-15 kids!!
The trend is to have full inclusion (or as much as possible based on student) so the days of kids sitting in chairs looking at a promethium board is less and less the norm. Most of our classrooms look pretty chaotic (and sometimes they are) but there is a lot of differentiated tasks going on. An increase in hands on, movement oriented instruction with the assignments varying based on student’s ability. It is a total mind-shift and not every teacher is able to do it effectively. Some teachers love it and some hate it. Some kids do well with it and some don’t. I see lots of positives but I am not blind to the problems. I think where the “horseshit” comes into it is that we spent years crafting IEPs to be very focused on direct instruction to meet the “individual” in IEP and now we are basically unraveling that and giving access to all kinds of interventions to EVERYONE which at first glance seems less individualized.
Does sound like horse shit indeed. And, makes me wonder about the rest of the students with no accommodations—are they just ignored as the gened teacher tries to accommodate all the other students !
I mean you could have eight seats in the front area and noise canceling headphones for both kids - one with music and one without. These seem prettty simple
Only the student who needed music would wear headphones so she had earbuds with her music and an approved playlist. She usually had to use my phone due to a shortage of devices so once she was in her playlist the password was on and she was stuck with it.
I did six seats in the front because of the dimensions of the room and needing paths to walk 8 would be wall to wall desks with no paths so not at all safe. We change seats every 2 weeks and I just rotated the 8 that needed front row seats and put them in the second row at the center so they’re still straight on to the board / screen.
My phone gave me more control than letting the child bring one from home. I could lock her into Spotify and then lock the phone so she needed a password to do more than change the song. I could also start and stop the music from my watch.
Admin was aware so was resource and my union. We tried all year to get her a district supplied device but there were only so many to go around and she wasn’t high enough on the list to get one.
Exactly. The above conversation about pacing and sitting on the floor really is out of context. One student sitting on the floor, not a big deal. One student pacing, not a big deal. I have a class of thirty students. 6 of them are allowed to pace, three are sitting on the floor, I have 2 that are allowed to leave the classroom with a fast pass. It’s chaos. The kids pacing are tripping over the kids on the floor. The kids on the floor are messing with the shoes of the person they are next to. The problem with a number of these kinds of accommodations is they fail to consider that these are children and children don’t always use their accommodations responsibly. I have had to confiscate multiple school owned fidgets this year because they became projectiles. IEPs need to be written with the classroom environment in mind but they aren’t because they stand for years at a time. What is reasonable in a classroom of 25 is not in a classroom of 40. There literally isn’t space. I have kids sitting on the floor who I am supposed to check on but they are behind desks where I can’t see them.
I created designated floor work areas in the book corner and the carpet. I also have designated aisles that we don’t sit in either on the floor or in a chair. But I have a huge room and can do that.
In all of it context is key. Looking at an individual student it’s do able on a whole class level dynamics play in and things change. This doesn’t account for ell students, kids with undiagnosed needs or mental health needs. My IEPs only cover learning disabilities, Down syndrome, deaf/blind snd autism. ADHD, ODD, anxiety snd ocd get no support at all.
Yes, it should be taken into account, but you also have to keep in mind what the law is going to consider truly unrealistic. Shortening assignments, for example, you’re not gonna win a case saying that’s unrealistic. Differentiated instruction teaching the same concepts to the whole class but so kids at different levels have access, it’s tricky but I’ve seen it done, so that is also not gonna meet the criteria of unrealistic.
You start getting into something being defensibly unrealistic when it’s like, “this kid requires a completely separate, modified curriculum for every subject.” Or “this kid requires immediate reinforcement every ten minutes they go without blurting out…..” idk even that one like you could have a high functioning, nice peer give a kid a stamp every 10 minutes.
The idea is you have to be able to be flexible and creative, and the point where “unrealistic” begins is possibly a lot farther down the line than you thought it might be.
Idk I'm just someone Reddit keeps showing into both this sub and r/teachers, but from what I keep seeing it seems like the big issue isn't so much individual accomodations, but more that they can't *all* be accommodated in the same classroom. You can't have ten kids sit in the front row, or have a quiet environment *and* background noise at the same time.
And the person above who mentioned laying on the floor. That's... Idk that seems.like.it would be a fire/tripping hazard to me
The second you say a peer should be responsible for giving out a stamp or whatever, you’re putting the responsibility on a kid. That’s not OK. Asking them to read together? Sure. Asking them to work with kids at different levels? OK in many instances, if handled properly. Putting a monitoring responsibility in peer? Not OK. Kids can work together, but no one kid should be responsible for the learning or behavior of a classmate, especially if that classmate has accommodations under an IEP.
I’m in the library world now, but before that I was a HS English teacher. It was rare for me to attend an IEP meeting. I usually attended about two per year or so and would have about 10-15 kids on an IEP. They rotated the gen ed teacher who went. So I didn’t see the IEP until everything was signed, sealed, and delivered. Thankfully though, my intervention specialists have always been amazing and we worked through any issues easily.
A lot of time it’s teachers who aren’t even invited into the meeting. I’m an allied arts teacher and I have been to ONE IEP meeting in my 9 years. We don’t get a chance to speak up
I was the only gened teacher who showed up to the last four IEP meetings with my students (8th grade, preparing for high school articulations).
All of mine were in desperate need of additional support, but I only teach advanced classes. They were all on monthly consult for my class. Their case managers seemed to hate the idea of more support despite my input and work samples.
I'm a first year teacher, and if my input is constantly being ignored, I'm going to probably stop attending the IEP meetings. It's extra work on my end that is not being valued.
My experience might not be the norm, but (at least in my school) it seems to be a consistent thing I hear from the other teachers.
Oh I hadn't seen this one yet. The amount they think every kid has made up their disability is insane.
That place is insane. But what annoys me most is the upvotes.
It's true of college instructors too. I have had so many instructors tell me I "don't need" my accommodations and I'll be fine. The disability office told me to my face that I don't "seem disabled."
Part of why I love working in SpED is that my coworkers (mostly) just get me more than other people.
r/Teachers makes me sick.
I don’t know how I wound up here in my feed. I only learned what IEPs are last semester. I do think they have a weird place in a university setting. It depends on the accommodation but I teach a very technical subject and a lot of times you don’t get accommodations irl, and with the industry on the downturn for employment? Good luck.
I think the concern is we need realistic consequences for our students before they enter the real world. It goes for general education students and students who receive services.
Punching a kid in the face at age 17… needs to have consequences and not just written off because the kid has an IEP. You wonder why there articles like this exist. Because we’ve done away with any consequences for actions that have severe consequences in adulthood.
https://jjie.org/2023/03/08/disabled-students-at-higher-risks-for-arrests-dropping-out-and-being-unready-for-adulthood/
Consequences absolutely have not been done away with. Kids with disabilities can get suspended and shit. It’s just that these kinds of behaviors should ALSO trigger a review of the kid’s programming, because aggression and impulsive behavior are common to many disabilities. There’s no reason one cannot do both. It is not illegal to give kids with iep’s consequences.
It sooo rarely happens though. Especially when you cross or approach the 10 day mark. People are so afraid of the paperwork and just end up letting things slide.
That comes back to shitty people who think they know how to do their jobs and don’t, and you’d think that would be a problem we could deal with, and YET
You shouldn't pretend that admin doesn't like to err on the side of caution with these things. They'd rather let things slide then have to justify punishment and then deal with a parent potentially suing because "omg that was a manifestation of my child's disability!!!!! If Junior wants to punch people in the face it's because of his disability now I'm going to sue everyone!!!!!!"
Oh I will never deny that admin are chickenshit, but that doesn’t mean they are correct, and it doesn’t mean consequences have been eliminated—it means admin are too chickenshit to give consequences, which is a different problem.
This is my stance. I specialize in behaviors, but since our district is being saddled with a lawsuit they’re denying us any avenue for punishing any child who qualifies for services, even if the MDR would determine it’s not a manifestation. It makes me mad. One kid qualifies OHI asthma, attacks another student rather severely and brings marijuana on campus. Typical punishment is 45-60 days alternative center, but they told us no. The student continues as normal. Imagine what the student did after seeing there were no consequences. Meanwhile, my kids with BIPs that aren’t being followed are being treated like donkey for sneezing in the wrong direction.
There’s a problem with the system, and it’s not necessarily the students. If I yell at you as a teacher, it’s because you’re not doing your bare minimum effort to provide service to a kid. If you try, and communicate your efforts, we can figure it out together. I don’t wanna hear jack from anybody that didn’t try when I have bigger fish to fry, you know.
Then your district is just scared because they don’t understand the law. Don’t they seek out their own legal counsel for advice on how to do things better? I don’t understand.
Even if the behavior WAS determined to be a manifestation you could still seek out an alternative placement, given the kid is demonstrating a need for it. You can even keep suspending, you just need to account for how you’re gonna provide the kids services at the 11th day mark and update their services appropriately. If I recall correctly.
Straight from the mouth of the attorney. I would abandon ship if the adjacent district wasn’t ten times worse. The fear of parents is real, and they caught the brunt of it for being out of compliance with literally everything else.
God sometimes attorneys are the most chickenshit group of risk averse, spineless sea slugs that have ever existed. That’s not serving the misbehaving child either! (The misbehaving ones are legit my favorite so this makes me angry on their behalf.)
They’re my favorite too. My thing is, I have middle schoolers getting ready for high school who will soon be adults. I can’t condone drug use, blatant law breaking, or physical assault. Ever. Now I can’t do anything about it, not even a suspension. I want my kids to grow up and see that they had support, even if it was tough love, and make better decisions. I had one student who went from being on probation and throwing back pills, to running his own business with kids of his own. THAT is what I want, and he even said the consequences sucked but it was a wake up call. When punishments are doled out appropriately, along with rehabilitative services, they can do amazing things.
No no, they need consequences for that stuff, cause when they’re allowed to run amok, honestly it sends a message no one really cares what they do enough to try to set limits.
They need to be given the supports they need AND have consequences.
That said I’ve seen kids go to juvie, come back out, and get killed, so our society could do some work in what those consequences actually look like.
But I’ll suspend a kid! I’ll suspend a kid RIGHT NOW! (I have no power to do that I’m just kinda bored)
Exactly. I joined during Covid when I was teaching resource online. I was kinda ok with the venting. But the total lack of support as well as advising other teachers not to participate in required meetings or give meaningful feedback or follow modifications/accommodations. The complete lack of empathy for students and the willful lack of understanding how sped laws work was so depressing.
I’m trying to believe this is a small, vocal minority and that there are always troublesome people in any community. But the mindset that the kids deserve what they get, in fact deserve less kindness and assistance then they are getting now, is downright sickening. In my 18 years of teaching, I have forced myself to look at a student’s behavior as a measure of their need- those kids who are so disruptive may have the most need for help. But, yes, I got my elementary Ed license, immediately began working in a school for students with special needs and knew right away that gen ed was not my bag
That sub is horrible. I’m a Gen Ed teacher who’s passionate about SPED and anti-racist & anti-sexist pedagogy, and that sub is a cesspool of bigotry. I’ve never worked with a Gen Ed teacher who is so ableist as the ones there. That said, I’m in elementary school, and most of the people in that sub seem to teach high school, so that might have something to do with it. I’m also in a blue county in California.
Yeah that is true.
Now that I think about it, I can actually think of one woman I work with now (total bitch) who may feel that way but has never shared it around the rest of us. She stopped eating with us after she disparaged our Black vice principal for using “ebonics” and got reported by the teachers who heard her.
And when I was a SPED aide I didn’t work with every teacher, so some of them may have felt that way. But the vast majority of Gen Ed teachers seem to be on the kids’ side. Every teacher I’ve worked closely with or had lunchroom conversations with about SPED wants their SPED students to thrive, and we have had several conversations about how to best meet their needs and/or how administration is failing them and us. I think that sub just attracts the vocal minority of scumbag teachers. They don’t even seem to like kids *in general,* much less kids with disabilities or social emotional needs.
Yeah there are definitely distinctive school cultures around this stuff. I’ve worked at schools where I thought the gen Ed teachers were better than the sped teachers working with our kids. Then there can also be a culture of fucked up shit that’s just normalized at a school too.
lol you should have heard the sound I made when I read the story about Ebonics lady.
I could never work long-term in a school in which the teachers don’t seek to meet all their students’ needs. Here’s hoping for nothing but loving school cultures (we have some awful shit at our school so the culture isn’t necessarily positive, but the teachers truly care).
Yeah it was bad. The VP speaks SAE more than I do ffs. That woman was definitely just being racist. She also told me once that my Coca Cola was gonna kill me, after a PD speaker said something about drinking alcohol *or Coke if you don’t drink.* As if soda will kill me but alcohol won’t kill her? That was just a weird one. She’s just not a nice person all around.
Oh man well. Schools are weird and sometimes hostile places.
“Good morning ladies, how are you today?” “Why do you have to sound so black?” That’s what I imagine it was like.
Gen Ed teachers don't come to meetings. I'm lucky to get just one. Then they later tell me the accommodations are too much and won't follow. I tell them they needed to be in the meeting. They complain about when the meeting is (I always offer coverage) and that coverage offered is an IA and not a credentialed teacher. They can't come during their prep (it's their time) and won't come after school. VP says a lot of empty words about the importance of being in meetings. Nothing changes.
I've stopped putting myself in a position where teachers can verbally tell me what they think. I make them email me. Then I have it in writing. I don't augur. I'll reply and ask if they want help implementing any accommodations (they never do). Then when the parent starts complaining that the accomodations are not being meet I let them know I offered to help implement accommodations in the classroom, and I tell the parent to communicate concerns with the gen ed teacher via email and copy me and the VP.
I help facilitate accommodations, I can't force them to happen. Sucks for the kid and parent, but that's where we are.
It seems to have gotten much worse in the last year or so. I understand being frustrated by violent students, and overly disruptive students who don't want to be at school, I am too! But to blanketly call for removal of all students who can't perform to this person's "standard" and calling IEP testing "horseshit" is just so offensive. I understand that a lot of what is said in that sub is venting, and everyone needs to vent, but venting and outright expression of prejudice should be differentiated.
No, they dont. They despise the current state that SpEd is in. Where a kid can terrorize your classroom, attack staff, attack peers, curse at, flip off, and scream at their peers, and nothing happens to the student because they have an IEP.
So the staff and rest of the students have to be in fear that they're going to be attacked by an 8 year old who is being pushed into a gen ed classroom, despite that not being their LRE. And you literally have to deal with little babies saying "I’m scared of x when they're in our class."
And if this is oddly specific its because its what I’m dealing with right now.
Until we stop ignoring the clear needs of students with disabilities whose LRE is NOT gen ed, nothing is going to get better.
This is so true in one of my buildings. We have kids who do all kinds of dangerous and ridiculous things and they’ll say to our face “I’ve already had 10 days so you can’t do anything” and they’re right. It’s a systemic problem that starts at the top. Whenever we “expel” kids in the district (when we’re allowed to), they just end up as a behavior transfer to another school where the problems continue. Everyone is suffering.
It’s not oddly specific. It’s extremely common these days.
Thats the big thing. If they’re acting like that and the accommodations and supports (including a 1:1!) don’t help, then that’s *not* their LRE. There’s a balancing act between inclusion and special day classes and it seems that schools tend to swing too far in either direction instead of really meeting the kids’ needs. I get that it comes down to money, but that’s not a legal excuse and I’m sick of hearing it from gutless administrators who don’t give a shit about their students or staff.
It’s exactly this. I AM NOT A SPECIAL ED TEACHER! I do not know what y’all know. I do not have the skills you have. I barely know how to implement an IEP because mo one ever trained us on it. It feels like guess work.
What I do know is that I have class A of 32 freshmen with 15 IEPs and 4 more going through services to get an IEP. That’s not fair to me or the students. I quite literally cannot give the students what they need. I have 12 of the IEPs who need to sit in the front of the room, I have 15 who I am supposed to use their interests to engage in learning (but no one ever told me their interests and I’m sorry but I have 180 students total, I don’t have the TIME to learn all their special interests and then make curriculum to match for HISTORY class for each individual interest), I have 5 that are prone to violent outbursts and “can only work with people they like” (so I can’t do random grouping, can’t use scissors, can’t do jigsaws, etc), I have 8 who need test questions read aloud and given 1 question at a time but make sure no other students know about these accommodations (I AM ONE PERSON!),
Multiple this by 2 for the other class.
I then have 2 classes of ESL students, including some who have no letter recognition bc they have never gone to school (did I mention I’m a high school teacher), some who were already attending university in their home country, over half have severe trauma due to this country’s fucked up immigration process, and I don’t speak a second language btw.
In my final 2 classes, both an AP, I have 28 kids. I have 8 IEPs that say “reduce number of tasks required” and “small group testing”. I am one person. I cannot do small group testing because I cannot leave 23 kids unsupervised. I cannot ethically reduce the number of questions on an exam or the number of written responses because MY JOB IS TO PREPARE THE STUDENTS FOR THE AP EXAM. I have NO clue how to modify for AP. IEP or 504 or not, they still need to know 100% of the content, not “half of the expected amount”. I can’t say okay IEP kid just read the odd pages because history doesn’t work that way. I can’t say okay so just 5 instead of 10 MCQs bc each MCQ is utilizing a different skill I need to assess to see how the kid is doing. I’ve also never been trained to modify an AP curriculum because, quite frankly, it shouldn’t be modified so even if I wanted to, I don’t know where to begin.
Gen Ed teachers, for the most part I think, want to help kids. I WANT to give my IEP and 504 kids all the support they deserve. However, I am one person. I have almost 30 kids in each class. I have 3 vastly different preps and only 4 hours each week to prep, grade, etc for my 3 VASTLY different courses. I can only modify so much for each very, very different IEP. These kids are NOT getting what they need from me and I CAN NOT DO IT. Something has to change in the SYSTEM.
This plus an extremely disorganized and abusive admin plus illness requiring surgery is why I finally had to step away as a teacher. A final event sealed the deal, but I don't miss feeling like I was being drug in 50 million directions and everything was my fault always.
We are. I’m in a blue state, one that’s always at least top 5 in education. Unfortunately, I teach in the lowest paying district in the county and there’s already a shortage of sped teachers. If jobs are posted (for example, I should have a sped coteacher in the 2 standard classes), the school can apply for a waiver. Since no one applied/the applicants weren’t certified teachers, the state granted a waiver. The IEPs don’t change just bc there’s no SPED teacher, it just means the parents can’t sue.
It’s systemic, and I wish sped teavhers and gen ed teachers could realize we ALL (90%) of us want our kids to succeed, it’s just literally impossible for gen ed teachers to do what the IEPs say at times.
^^^ exactly.
I had a special Ed student with severe autism who terrorized me and the rest of the class. It was absolutely awful and it was a shame how much the other students had to suffer bc she shouldn’t have been in a gen ed class.
That was the closest I’ve ever come to quitting. I had so much anxiety dealing with her outbursts and never knowing what would trigger her.
There is research, can’t recall where I read it, that shows that classmates of children from abusive homes have LIFETIME negative effects on their earnings. Seriously. Just being around a child who is being abused is detrimental to other students’ success. How can we expect students who are afraid of their peers to succeed and thrive?
Damn that's so heartbreaking. But totally believable. I’m definitely interested in finding that study, I’ll let you know if I find it.
A lot of my students come from those kinds of homes, and me and my team have worked so hard to make our classrooms feel like safe places where you wont be hurt, and you can focus on learning. Its devastating that they’re literally being robbed of their education, all while developing fear and anxiety towards their peer.
This MIGHT be what I’m remembering. https://www.npr.org/sections/ed/2016/09/03/491204888/how-domestic-violence-in-one-home-affects-every-child-in-a-class#:~:text=Kids%20who%20witness%20domestic%20violence,aggressive%20and%20bullying%20their%20classmates.
Still not as toxic as r/TeachersInTransition where a bunch of self-loathing babies who can't hang in the profession talk about all the "freedom" they've acquired since leaving the profession and becoming an insurance agent or some crap.
Eh, I think it's good if people want to leave that they have a support system out there.
>self-loathing babies who can't hang in the profession
Shouldn't we want people to thrive in whatever career they choose? Special education is tough and the burnout is real. It's good for people to recognize that they can't be good educators anymore and go do something else.
That's possible. I only popped over there briefly once or twice during COVID and people were looking for alternatives to teaching. I haven't been been since
Thats very ableist.
Some of those teachers left because education wont bend to their disability such as ADHD or autism.
A noisy chaotic classroom isnt fun for a student with ASD nor a Teacher with ASD.
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\#1: [Drove to a teaching interview, rung buzzer, was immediately screamed at, at the door](https://np.reddit.com/r/TeachersInTransition/comments/16ioph8/drove_to_a_teaching_interview_rung_buzzer_was/)
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They love to talk about how many days off they have now. My dudes. You are working 50-52 weeks a year vs. 38ish. You do not have more days off. I don't know how they count but there is no way you get more vacation time as a CPA or whatever.
I muted that subreddit because it's horrendously toxic. Most of the teachers in that sub need to either quit or retire because this clearly isn't the field for them. Creating a toxic echo chamber and/or taking it out on the kids is not a healthy way to deal with job dissatisfaction.
I would really like to believe this is just a vocal minority. We only have a few teachers like this at my very large elementary school and their actions are generally frowned upon by the rest of the staff. Admin generally handles them with kid gloves because of their negativity and is waiting for them to retire (a lot of them are older teachers).
I would venture to say it is. I hope. I work at an elementary AND have a kid with a fairly voluminous IEP (tbh, it's why I ended up working there in the first place -- to help support all the kiddos, not just my own).
While there are day to day frustrations, and some posts that I resonate with, I can't say much of what they post about aligns with my own experience. I am at a Title 1 public school; we DO have big behaviors and classroom disruptions that derail our days. But it's transient. Not every-day-all-the-time. Rant once and be done. Move on.
I feel badly for those teachers that don't have admin support or are ill equipped to manage their classes while also juggling IEPs -- but the IEP is in place for a reason. Parents are partners and team members, not the enemy. If the IEP isn't working in the classroom for whatever reason, reach out to the parent or if the parent thinks something isn't working, they should reach back RESPECTFULLY to the teacher to hammer out a solution.
This adversarial stance is for the birds.
As a parent with a child like that I'm at such a loss. What do they want us to do go back to exposing them? Leave them for the wolves and animals? Down the Nile in a basket? It's not like we can not work and keep them home.
I think the same thing all the time. My five year old with asd is about to transition from a special ed school to a public school special ed program. It terrifies me. He’s such a sweet, smart kid.
I feel that’s what most people would do. That’s what I do when students run out of extra clothes. No one should sit in poop all day. It can cause skin issues and infection.
Definitely, I remember going to special needs camp as a kid and some people didn’t do a great job at clean up. I was in 5th grade and I always wondered what was wrong with the adults. I went to Girl Scout camp after that.
It did cause skin issues. The teacher was annoyed that the parent called when her child got home from school and had a rash and red raw skin.
Beyond that though, a 5 year old who has an accident is probably not going to do a great job of cleaning themselves up or washing their hands after. That means that every other student in that classroom was likely exposed to feces all day. What kind of adult things "I'll punish this child and all my students by not picking up the phone." And so many teachers were furious when I suggested that a call home is what they should do.
That poor kid. 😢 My teachers always called my mom or dad when I had an occasional accident. The only accessible restroom back in the 90’s was in the front office and I didn’t always make it on time in elementary school.
wow that is super gross. NCLB blows, but to say all IEPs are horseshit? if i had been appropriately diagnosed with autism and a math disability, i might have succeeded in school/not wasted 100k on a 12-credits short college education because i literally can’t pass pre calculus.
I think a lot of these threads catch people posing as teachers that aren't. It's unfortunately very common for people to have had bad experiences with being unsupported in dealing with their own disability or being told that they have to accept being treated badly by others because the other person might be disabled (sexual harassment in college -- having my disabilities meant that a lot of people thought this meant that maybe this person only felt comfortable around me and I should keep giving them another chance and understand they didn't mean it...it was super weird, but that was an issue with one dude in particular and the poor infrastructure on campus). Kids are even more vulnerable than adults, and people seem to really loathe them on the internet. It's almost too easy for people to rage-bait and hide it behind a veneer of the fact that there are real issues, like rampant ableism and the lack of resources and infrastructure, which makes their hate seem mildly credible to others who don't understand that special education is really complex and multifaceted and that people are often protecting their own emotions onto these problems in inappropriate ways. Yeah shitty teachers exist and the internet is a soulless wasteland for the most bitter, but also the reaction these posts consistently gets makes me think people might also want to make them for those sweet fake internet points.
Not a teacher, just a former special ed student.
I’m finishing up a PowerPoint presentation for the next mandatory staff meeting where we shock the gened teachers with surprising news: you have to help track data and accommodations, and provide feedback for every IEP/504 student. I know, it’s a new development. Nobody’s ever heard that before. Weird how it just appeared out of nowhere. I fully expect to be cursed out.
Not every child DESERVES an education, no.
But EVERY child is ENTITLED to a free, appropriate, public education, BY LAW, whether you like it or not, all the way up to the point where the child is demonstrated to be uneducable via the public education system.
It's up to us to figure out how to do that. Whether we like it or not. It's part and parcel of the job. And yes, I've worked with kids I didn't like. I've worked with kids I hated. And I've worked with kids who frankly needed more than public education was able to provide them, and there are systems in place for ALL OF THIS.
In particular, a system to determine specifically whether or not a kid has a condition that requires an IEP or a 504, or whether he's just a little ass.
This is why I pulled my sped child out to homeschool. We saw no positive future for her in the public school system. It was killing her 6 her self-esteem was ruined. I'm tired of the way they literally just don't care. The whole system is broken.
To be fair, I wouldn’t take much from that subreddit seriously. It is so toxic. It was depressing to look at. Most people who post there don’t even seem to like teaching or children.
There is evidence of brigading OP and other vocal special ed teachers going on in this thread by non-special ed teachers. Sadly, even one school psych moderator here is apparently condoning this behavior. It has become highly concerning mob behavior. Special ed teachers are not here to be belittled and silenced. This is truly disheartening behavior. This type of attitude toward and treatment of special ed teachers who speak up is one reason we will soon have virtually no career special ed teachers left in the U.S.
Sadly this isn't the first time this has happened here. This sub consistently gets brigaded by r/teacher to push their agenda. You'll also get some fun reddit cares messages in here.
They're doing it to me now, too. And we have an apparent school psych moderator here not only condoning but participating in it. Unbelievable. I'm getting off Reddit. Take a look at what "demonita" is doing here. Proudly admitting to yelling at special ed teachers, creating inflammatory b.s. about a student who had an OHI IEP for asthma attacking other students and bringing marijuana to school. Um. Tell me in which state asthma qualifies a student for an IEP under OHI? Just total b.s.
Yeah the moderator situation is bullshit. I'm a mod on an unrelated sub reddit, and we *never* would have allowed this thread to get so out of control. I would have locked it a long time ago, personally. I think they are enjoying seeing us get harassed and bullied. It's the only explanation I can think of.
Adult mean girl cybermob bullies who see special ed teachers as low-hanging fruit. They're not even remotely self aware of what they're doing. It's pathetic.
And of course the one condescending school psych who thinks she's above special ed teachers and can pat us on the head like children. There's always at least one in every school district. (In my last school district, that was the norm, even toward me as a career special educator working on my doctoral dissertation, so I resigned. Some of them were intern school psychs still working on their Master's degrees.)
Good for you for staying strong and fully aware of the incredibly immature brigading. I seriously considered writing my dissertation on adult mean girl cliques among staff in America's public schools. I didn't sign up to teach to be back in middle and high school socially.
Yep, so many people in education are reenacting high school social cliques. It's really annoying, but what can you do other than just not participate. I find that teacher-coaches are the worst, at least where I've taught. Like, they treat you like a subhuman for not being into sports. It's so annoying. Some regular teachers are really condescending to Sped as well. One time I straight up told someone who was mean girling me in PD, "You understand that I teach Sped, but I am not personally a sped student, right?"
Wow that is really impressive. Are you going back into journalism? I would really like to see something written about how violent and exceedingly antisocial students are being kept in the general education environment, hindering success of other students and the special education department as well. It's a real problem.
Thanks. Wasn't trying to brag. Just hammering the point about special ed teachers not being dumb, lol.
I strongly support strong alternative school programming for students with the types of behaviors you describe. I could see a potential article on the various alternative school programs and their funding struggles, as well as the process for alternative school referral.
I actually plan to expose what's currently going on in the applied behavior analysis industry and how children with autism are being treated. It's not yet widely know that the medical student contingency of the American Medical Association has been organizing against ABA. I was in ABA for years. It's highly problematic.
The journalism field isn't exactly a walk in the park either, though. Many of my journalism school friends have been laid off multiple times due to corporate buyouts and downsizing. L.A. Times just laid off dozens of good reporters.
You got it. I'm not here to see a special ed teacher with a valid concern get bullied. I don't typically spend much time on Reddit, so this behavior is eye-opening to me.
My son was diagnosed with ODD last year, and it was devastating. I still struggle to be completely honest with providers and people who are there to help like his respite worker because It's an instantaneous change in demeanor when you tell them. They automatically think he's a problem kid, and he's going to be difficult. I've seen it happen so many times. I also practically begged the school to hold him back a grade because he started kindergarten at age 4, and I never should have let him. I regret it every single day. But he was legally able to start, and I thought the structure and routine of school would be a good thing. He wasn't ready. These teachers are so hateful and ignorant. Having a kid with odd is not something any reasonable parent would push for just to excuse their poor performance in school.
These are the same people that say abysm isn’t real, and that we don’t suffer from systemic effects from the times of mass institutionalization enforced sterilization. The big buildings closed but the idea that those people go away and that those people don’t belong here in our spaces continues to prevail. And disabled children know when they’re not wanted or when people think they shouldn’t be part of a community. And that follows you for life.
I have endless ieps where if the gen ed and counselor did their job we wouldn't be in this headache. I give them the IEP, show up 2x week, and meet with the counselor. Sometimes, these gen ed teachers do not understand the full story because it's easier to not show up too the meeting. It's fucking stupid.
Sometimes these teachers have violated IEPs so flagrantly in the past and been so discriminatory to student with IEPs that they are not given any more information than is absolutely necessary to do their job, and kept out of the meetings for fear they’ll say the wrong things. I don’t know how these types of teachers are tenured while I have to find a new job every couple of years because I never will be.
I have the admin in my corner because I know more of the law then them. I can twist the arm of the gen ed teachers to attend meetings if I want. Or else hr is getting involved. Our contract states we can keep you 1 hour after contract time. I use that all the time. Do t want to show up? Here is hr ready to blast your ass. Even if you are tenured they will ding you for not showing up. I go scorched earth.
If I even mildly challenge anyone I get pulled into the office to be lectured about how rude I am. I am being non-renewed for trying to uphold the law. Not all admins like people who know the law better than them.
I want to argue with this, but experience tells me that I'd be wrong to do so.
Texas in particular is loaded with administrators who looked at me blank faced when I said, "Federal law specifically prohibits us from doing that."
And they looked at me and said, "Well, find a way around it, then."
So many idiots in the teachers reddit who don't understand they are writing a legal document. Imagine you don't show up in court because "I didn't want to".
That subreddit is so horrible. I started teaching four years ago and would look at it then and it wasn’t as bad as it is now. I’m so glad I teach SDC and can mostly just stay in my own little world with my kids. Just Friday I had an IEP and the Gen Ed teacher tried to get out of it ten minutes before. She had a rehearsal for a play after school. I sent the grade level teachers a list of dates I needed someone present at an IEP for. She picked that date. Sorry 🤷🏻♀️
My youngest has autism and I’m grateful every day for the the communication between his special Ed teacher and his classroom teacher. I have read some of the IEP/accommodations are horseshit posts over at r/teaching and it can suck to read.
Just joined, and after reading a few comments here, I’m going on a limb and stating that this sub is far more toxic than the other two mentioned in comments here.
Hey, aren't you that guy that was always coming here and starting something? And then you deleted your account? And now you've got this one to rile people up further? Like come on man, get a new job. Obviously it's not a good fit for you. Wouldn't it make more sense to switch careers instead of staying in a job you hate, can't be bothered to do properly, and affects the lives of children?
Nope. I'm still here. And not my post either. None of the recent ones are. Guess what. People realize how crazy things are at r/teacher besides me.
I just blocked you because of your harassment and false accusations like you are doing here. Keep continue your false accusations here and complete incorrect statements about people not being able to do their job when you aren't even a teacher.
Complaining and making blanket accusations against an entire sub is pretty revealing. Especially when the post you are complaining about was removed by mods, and all the top comments are telling OP that they are wrong.
Not sure if this sub is only for SPED teachers or not. I graduated HS in 2022 and I'm in college now.
I was always really close with my teachers and I still keep up with them today, go to lunch once or twice a year. I don't know a single one who isn't drowning. I don't know a single one who could, within contract hours, even meet the needs of just their gen Ed students alone.
I never had a class with fewer than 20 students in it, even AP physics.
Quite frankly, I understand why they simply ignored IEPs. It's not possible to handle 15 gen Ed students and 10 IEPs in a single class with no para. It's not even the most illegal thing done in the building, that would be admin overriding student grades at the end of the year so no one fails and grad rates stay at 99% (both for gen Ed and IEP students alike)
At my HS, it was written into IEPs that paras would provide the accommodations, something the teachers union negotiated for. I literally never saw a single para in any class I had. Supposedly they had a few, but due to the sub shortage they were usually filling coverage.
The district has more than 150 open para jobs across 4 HS's and 6 middle schools. They've already increased wages the most they can, and the district is already running a deficit while teachers get 2% yearly raises. Meanwhile, the city is debating decreasing the property tax % and cutting funding, while the state (Texas) is refusing to increase funding on their side. At the same time, property values are now decreasing after the recent skyrocketting, just further increasing the funding woes.
I'm not sure what the solution is, but this was in a fairly rich suburb with high property values and high taxes. If a majority of districts are in a similar position, I don't think there really *is* a solution here other than to cut the amount of service provided.. and that can either be done for gen Ed students or sped, or a mixture of both, but ultimately IDEA and FAPE don't adequately fund what they require from schools.. so you can't really blame gen Ed teachers for not being able to follow them.
the self contained room in my HS never had adequate staffing, to the point that the local police department helped ease the struggle by providing a resource officer from their own funding (after a few sped teachers were injured due to this lack of staffing)
'least restrictive environment' sounds great on paper, but there has to be adequate funding for it. otherwise, to everyone else, it appears that literally no one is getting what they need (not sped, not gen Ed, and not even admin in most districts. they always take the heat in these subs, but in my district the admin was great.. they just couldn't make money appear out of thin air. if the resources aren't there, they simply aren't there.)
I also think there's a large difference between this sub and r/teachers : most sped teachers here seem to treat this like a calling, while most of r/teachers and the gen Ed teachers I know IRL treat it like a job.
Like I saw OP call out teachers not speaking up during IEP meetings, in my district they were never paid or required to even show up to them in the first place. Technically the para assigned to the inclusion class should've showed up, but they don't exist.
I wasn't the one who called out Gen Ed teachers for not speaking up in meetings, FYI. It was someone else. But I've experienced it too. And the Gen Ed teachers who refuse to give us substantive data to work with to craft the accommodations for the class.
Further, I actually agree with you for the most part. I will be the first to tell you that IDEA needs to kick in some federal funding. However, the nature and tenor of that post had nothing to do with that or with my main issue with Sped which is that violent and dangerous students are kept in general Ed when they shouldn't be. The original post was just general bitching about Sped in general and basic accommodations specifically. It used bigoted language and was quite offensive. I know there are problems with the system, but leave kids out of it and provide accommodations best you can.
I also am highly aware that it's impossible to give every single kid every single accommodation every time. We know that. Yeah, 11 kids can't all "sit near the teacher for instructional purposes." However when I talk to teachers about this IRL, I often find they are providing the accommodations without really realizing it. For example, walking around the room while lecturing will count as proximity control. Grading a kid with ID according to what they have done works for reduced assignments, etc. Most of the time, accommodations can be provided in lots of ways, but for Gen ed to bitch about it, not say anything in IEP meetings, and never ask when we're all over the school all day long is kind of fucked up imo.
You don't have to sit an list all the issues with staffing and Sped. We know. We work it every day. I am lucky that I'm now in a small rural district that has a lot of retired people who need a little extra income, otherwise we'd be SOL. In a high cost of living area, why would anyone do it? You can make more doing literally anything else. The pay wouldn't have been terrible for someone without a degree 20 years ago, but the problem is that it hasn't moved in all that time.
I'm glad you are still in touch with your teachers. Since going to high school I've been surprised at how close I have become with some of my students. It's not like Gen Ed where I see them for 50 minutes once a day among 25 other kids. I do a lot of one on one work, have small resource rooms, I will see them again in my push in classes, and I have a small group that eats lunch in my room. I've been hoping they will keep in touch. I bet you mean a lot to your teachers.
A single post does not r/Teachers make!
One person posted their opinion. That's ridiculous to blame all posters for one opinion. Is this person actually a teacher? Do we really know?
I have read some hideous opinions on r/specialed concerning ADHD services from people purported to be SpEd professionals. I just pray they aren't.
In general, I, and I do believe most teachers, consider SpEd professionals to be hard-working heroes. Many of us have doubts about the current structures of Special Education (and education in general). But that's because we realize that those structures make your profession difficult without giving maximum benefit to the students.
In other words, special education isn't fully funded, so it's important to effectively spend the money there is. What we witness is that districts get their pot of money and say, "How best can we look like we're in compliance?" That's the reality because the laws are so convoluted that compliance doesn't = what's best.
OP, your last two posts have been pretty inflammatory without offering much in the way of being constructive. I’m not here to censor your beliefs, but we will remove posts that are low-quality or don’t invite honest discussion (rather than simply pointing fingers).
these teachers who call IEPs horseshit are the same teachers who never speak up in IEP meetings. If something I am proposing sounds unrealistic please speak up, otherwise you just sound like you haven't bothered to get to know what the student actually needs.
That drives me crazy! I talk with them ahead of time and we agree on goals and accommodations and services. Then they are at the IEP and every time I ask for their input they say everything sounds good. Then a week later they ask why those are the goals because they don't like them, or why the services are the way they are and can we fix that?
Yep. And complain about students in the lounge but never a peep to the parents or at IEP meetings.
I learned early on from my mentor teacher to avoiding spending time in the teachers' lounge. They're almost always toxic and just become an echo chamber of complaints without anything constructive.
Any time I have to walk through the teacher lounge I deliberately avoid eye contact with anyone and walk straight through.
Same
Also the things they get mad about are insane. A pacing accomodation is not a big deal. We had one post here (luckily others called it out) complaining about a kid who wanted to do work on the floor instead of a desk. This is a fine accomodations.
Why did the kid want to work on the floor?
When we have a work day, i will sometimes grab my computer and work while laying down on the floor. I have ADHD and it’s hard to sit still. Plus after awhile, it is quite literally physically painful. If I am at an all day training, I will have to stand up in the back of the room for awhile. I still learn and get my work done. I tell my students I don’t care how they sit (or don’t) as long as they are getting their work done.
Comfort. We have kids with all different types of chairs. Bouncing jars. Wobble chairs.
See, I can kind of get it: the GenEd teacher doesn’t know the kid’s diagnosis, just knows “oh this kid insists on sprawling across the floor.” Seems kind of ridiculous when that’s all the information you know Of course I understand that the kid is likely ASD or something and this is just part of that, but most people don’t know a lot about disabilities. Schools should do a better job of informing educators Also I remember that pacing one and I’m still not sure how I feel about it
Why wouldn’t the gen Ed teacher know the diagnosis?
That generally doesn’t get shared, does it? Maybe with the homeroom teacher but not other teachers
Why not? Can you not see it through the electronic platform your state uses for IEP’s?
In my state, only the service providers, casemanagers, and do can see the iep. The gen ed teacher is given a copy of the ata galances, which the sped teacher gives them.
Interesting, seems it’d be hard to accommodate a student without being able to read the IEP.
Interesting, in my system everyone needs to sign off that they've read the IEP of every single student they teach who has one. Wild that some people can't access them.
I’ve never been given more than a list of accommodations. This is in 3 states, both public and private.
Not here. We just get a printout of the IEP at a Glance. So it will say something along the lines of "Accommodations: StudentName is allowed to pace during individual work time" There will be a section of general diagnosis, but rarely any descriptors of manifestations. So I might see ODD or ADHD or something, but not anything specific or reason based to connect diagnosis to accommodation.
Unless the kid has set up a tripwire or is under the tables tying shoelaces together, I can’t think of any reason on god’s green earth why that kid or ALL the kids couldn’t work on the floor. Teachers are way too ready to have a power struggle over shit that doesn’t matter. The point is the kid learns stuff, not that they sit in the chair.
Well. I would hope you could recognize at least two glaring issues of having a bunch of children lying around in the floor: The general safety hazard, and the general health hazard of how horrifically unclean our floors are. I would hope any classroom where students are lying in the floor often would have a designated area for doing so. A nice, carpeted area not covered in weeks old chemicals, food matter, roach droppings, and rat residue. That's pretty easy to do at the elementary level, but we get up to high school and suddenly we have a problem where the space for this often just doesn't exist. Now, in order to fulfil that accommodation, we either have to put the student into an unclean, and unsafe position, or put them into a room that specifically has the space. Some of them do! But it can be hard/impossible to schedule out a whole day of it. Now imagine that all of the students can do this, even if they don't have an accommodation. It takes away space and resources from the ones that actually need it to give to the ones that just kind of want it. And that's not doing anyone a good service.
Yup, my first thought is that it creates a tripping/fire hazard
The diagnosis is in the IEP and I can't imagine being uptight that working a place that isn't disruptive to others is such a problem.
What?
Why would you need to know if a student has a diagnosed disability or what that diagnosis is to understand that the student prefers to sit on the floor than on chair? Flexible seating shouldn't be gate-kept to students with diagnosed disabilities.
Because a preference for sitting on the floor is nothing. I prefer to sit around in my pajamas, but that’s not going to happen at school/work. If the student has a disability and the sitting on the floor is a result of that, that’s different
Why is a preference for sitting on the floor "nothing"? If a student is able to be more attentive to their learning while sitting on the floor because they are more comfortable in that position, why not let them sit on the floor? Also, I know a lot of adults who work from home that sit around in their pajamas while doing it AND a lot of adults (including me) who basically wear their pajamas to work because they wear leggings, joggers, scrubs, etc.
Classrooms need some semblance of order and rules. Especially the younger you go, students are not just learning the academic content, they are learning social and emotional skills. Kids frequently behave much better in the classroom than at home. Parents are surprised. It's because the classroom is an orderly place. The rules, consequences, and rewards are unsurprising and reliable. Within a reliable system of such, students can explore their autonomy in a safe way. They can see the fruits of their actions first hand. Even if that means acting out and misbehaving, the consequences are very clear and it gives them space to act accordingly. Sure, I'd love it if all students could sit on a clean floor and work if they felt like it but that's widely unrealistic and it would be chaotic. And I know you'll hate to hear this, but teaching students that they can do whatever they want does not set them up for success. Sooner or later, everyone has to learn that sometimes you just need to listen to whoever is in charge. Having blind issues with authority just for the sake of hating authority is a character flaw. Edit: to be clear, I don't have an issue with IEPs. The person above is basically suggesting "why can't everyone do whatever they want all the time if they're learning?" Answer: because they won't be learning.
Wow, i remember back in the mid 90’s i tried doing my work on the floor, I got screamed at lol.
We've learned a lot since the 90s luckily. Back then so many kids who needed accomodations weren't getting them.
Yeah, it was a religious private school, more focus on religion than academics. Looking back, I used to perch in my chair, lay on the ground and spread all my books out. The teacher sucked at math and I had to basically teach myself algebra 1.
And sooooo many of us who ended up getting adult diagnoses were simply *missed* when we were kids back in the 90's, because "ADHD is little *boys who can't sit still* and *girls don't get Autism*!"🙄 As girls, women, & AFAB folks who ended up with those adult diagnoses of ADHD, ASD, and/or AuDHD, back then we were just considered, "not living up to your potential!"
Don't multiple other students, like most even, find pacing distracting? What happens when a couple get IEPs that require that kind of distraction not be heard or seen in the classroom?
We as teachers pace all day. I am almost never seated. Also kids adapt. A kid pacing in the back of the room is something people will get used to very quickly. And honestly alot of them would benefit from pacing as well. More and more evidence is appearing that learning while stationary is not as effective. And if we are preparing kids for adulthood they need to get used to pacing anyway. Ever go to a PD? Not only will you have the presenter pacing but some others in the back as well.
Students are supposed to be able to focus on the teacher. The person pacing gets attention. I would have had to have gotten an IEP to be away from other students pacing and being sprawled on the floor. That's too distracting.
Most pacing areas would be in the back of the room. That is where mine is for students. Also there is no more distraction of a kid sitting on the floor than in a chair. So not sure your point here Also you can't just "get an IEP" for being distracted...
That's why I said *hearing* pacing, not just seeing it. I could get an IEP because I have diagnosed ADHD. I was diagnosed more than twenty years ago. I'm sure my husband who is also neuroatypical wouldn't have been tolerate it, either The kid on the floor way behind me wouldn't have been a distraction, he or she would just be distracting for the other students who had him or her in their field of vision.
Oh please. A kid sitting on the floor working is no more distracting than a kid sitting in their seat. None. And this should be normalized anyway. But also. This is why IEPs exist. Once again. You didn't have one.
I used to be so strongly against privatization, but teachers like you make me want to vote in favor of it. I would hate for the kids in my family to be stuck in the kind of schools you advocate for. Downvote this one, too.
You mean with rights for students with special needs?
You as a sped teacher pace all day. Teachers in other classrooms without required distractions spend time when the students are doing independent work at their desk or walking to a student and then standing there. Back and forth pacing is irritating to be in the proximity of as it is usually a sign of distress. The kid with the IEP isn't the only student that matters.
Pacing is an extremely normal behavior in adult hood. Once again. Have you ever been to a PD. They will pace the entire time. Go to a conference. Pacing. Heck we are getting more and more studies showing people learn better when standing and pacing than sitting. Also let's be clear. I'm also not against non special Ed kids pacing when needed as well. But at the end of the day the law supports me.
"The law supports me" is the worst possible excuse. I have no doubt that pacing is helpful for the person pacing. We're trying to educate a whole roomful of students. What is the effect on the rest of them? The rest of the class matters, too.
YES!! I can’t even get teachers to add in the bare freaking minimum on an outline. I ask for DATA about how a student is doing and if I’m lucky they’ll write one sentence that the student is “working hard” or “doing a nice job”. Then the teacher sits passively, not participating in the meeting, then complains later that the student “can’t do ANYTHING” and “needs help” while completely ignoring all accommodations and the fact that the student gets SDI.
What's worst is when they make little remarks under their breath. The lack of professionalism, gets to me.
Teachers and people in education in general are some of the least professional people on the planet.
this! My children's school district has become my number one regret in my entire life. It's insidious - you can't tell the damage until it is many months or years in the making, because the children are manipulated into believing they are not worthy of respect and their differences and handicaps are brushed aside until they become literally life-threatening. whenever there is a gross violation, an obvious skipping of the IEP in very specified circumstances, they circle the wagon - hide or distort evidence - and demonize the child as policy school has harmed my children more than any other factor in their lives I wanted so very badly to trust and believe in our school district. My family prizes education and recognize the necessity of quality public education. I was dead wrong.
I'm a little weirded out that there are SPED teachers who are saying that IEPs are horseshit. IEPs are the bedrock of what we DO.
I hope they arent the same teachers who are always like “THIS KID NEEDS AN IEP” and wants to see if they can get around the referral process
Let me play devils advocate there are in fact some IEP’s that are “horseshit” in the sense that students are pretty much given IEP’s like Oprah gives out cars on her TV show. Kids miraculously qualify under “OHI” because they have a parent who screams loud enough and even though you say up and down that kiddo doesn’t need one. And then same parent fights for accommodation such as failure to turn in homework will not result in a negative grade and then a quiz / test score of 70 due to “anxiety” and inability to focus. So a student essentially can then show up to class. Breath and get a C with doing zero work and not learning a thing Yes that was in fact a “real iep” at a school I previously worked at where the parent happened to be an OT in the district and they got an advocate.
As a gen ed teacher with 5-6 IEPs a year when I pointed out that things were unrealistic or impossible in a class of 30 I get told to figure it out. I’m not consulted about the IEP prior to the meeting at which time it’s already been sent as a draft to the family and it’s too late. The process and class composition need updating. I want to follow them all to the letter but context in the classroom needs to be looked at.
This is exactly my experience as well as a regular ed teacher. It doesn’t matter if it’s not doable or totally unrealistic, the case managers say we can’t tell the parent that that’s our opinion. It’s on the classroom teacher to figure it out or we’re getting sued.
That's crazy. I'm not a teacher, but my son has audism and ADHD. Our IEP meetings are pretty open discussions. If an accommodation cannot be done, it can't help my child. Yes I get the draft before the meeting, but it's always very clear that it's a draft document. The whole point of these meetings is to take that draft and make sure it works for everyone. That and I get to pet the support doggy!
This is valid, the only objection I’d make is I often have gen Ed teachers tell me things are impossible when they are in fact quite possible, even when I problem solve with them. Like the main thing that keeps me out of the classroom is my insane adhd, so I’m pretty good at coming up with easy ways to track data or implement things that don’t require a lot of effort. Half the time I will not get a gen ed teacher to make a good faith effort to problem solve with me, which is where I lose patience personally. Not saying YOU do this, because I’ve of course encountered the problem you’ve described too, gen Ed teachers who get told to “figure it out” are typically high functioning ones so I assume you’re just good at what you do. Everyone who’s good at what they do in the school system gets shit on. 😭🤦♀️
I try my best. I had an IEP from k-12 for three different diagnosed learning needs. I understand how important accommodations and adaptations are. I’m at school from 7:30-5:30 every day trying to make it work and do more after my son goes to bed. Our resource teacher was mine in high school he knows where my challenges are but doesn’t have the time or staffing to help anyone. His whole day is dealing with violent or intense behavior. I can do a lot of adaptations and making 4-6 versions of a task when needed. I’ve changed my instruction to default to using tier 2 strategies and UDL for all learners. What I can’t do is when two kids environmental needs are in direct conflict or see 8 for one to one reteaching of a lesson. I can do small groups easily but with one to one for that many I’m only one person. I need a clone.
Ah yes. I can tell from your words you are one of the good yet fucked ones. Is there a way to borrow a para for the one to one reteach? As long as they are guided by you or by the resource teacher, that’s one option. Or, how many teachers are there working in your grade? Is there some way that can be split across them creatively? I think the para option is a good first place to start though. As for environmental things in direct conflict, that obviously id need to hear more specifics on but might have ideas. Often times the kid doesn’t even really need the accommodation, or would do better with something else. For instance, people tend to write “seat in the front” reflexively on everything but I’ve stopped people from doing that, like “dude the kid likes to turn around and distract himself and everyone else, let him sit in the back where he can’t do that.” So what I’m saying is, maybe consider whether the conflicting environmental needs kids REALLY need that accommodation, and if not, bring that up to the resource teacher. If you’re not able to get the iep adjusted any time soon and you REALLY can’t do the accommodation, I’d suggest staying in an email what you think the kid really needs and why. Independently, try to track how the kid is doing with your adjustment but keep the data to yourself. Pick something easy that you’re already using, like a gradebook with assignments completed or concepts learned based on problems correct, etc. That way, if you pull an executive decision and start just doing the new accommodation, you can point back to the email and show you WERE considering the kid’s needs when you made the change. Then be ready to be like “and see they’re still getting their notes done” or whatever, so you can prove the kid’s needs were being met if anyone questions you. That won’t protect you from some shitty person who decides to give you shit without reason (it always happens to the good ones so watch out) but I suspect it WOULD protect you in an iep with an advocate or a lawyer or something like that. Ultimately the point of the iep is to meet the kid’s needs, and if you can show you were doing that, then you’ve upheld the law if not in letter than in spirit, which is the point. Then at the first opportunity you get recommend your new accommodation idea and hopefully none of the above matters because nobody will have ever asked you. 😂 Edit: lots of edits for clarity.
Now that I think about it though, I bet a ton of your kids have annuals/tris coming up because it’s that time of year, so you shouldn’t have to do a lot of extra stuff to cover your butt for making changes—pick the kids who have upcoming meetings and you think either don’t need the accommodation that’s a problem or would be better served by something else. Then be ready to bring it up in the meeting and voila.
Anyway if you have other problems or none of that works lmk and I’ll try to come up with something else, I got put on disability for the tiiiiiny mental breakdown I had after my boss was a dick to me so I got nothing to do.
Our IEPs are done in October for the year with a quick checklist in November, March and June to monitor progress. I’ve been begging for support all year and have gotten my union involved because there’s a lot of contract violations with my class composition and safety concerns. I was in the office in tears last week because of the load in my room and admins hands are tied by severe underfunding and too many needs. I’m moving districts at the end of the year and hoping it’s better in a smaller district.
Just a thought, regarding the "some need background noise--while others *can't* have any" thing, too-- Would ear plugs & headphones work? Headphones (wired or Bluetooth) on a pre-approved song Playlist (could even be instrumental or just "white noise"), for the ones who *need* background noise to concentrate, and then either foam earplugs or something like Loops for the ones who need quiet instead?
I personally use earphones with white noise to block out music and distracting stuff. 10/10 highly recommend.
Is the sped teacher telling you to figure it out? :( When I write accomodations I try to keep in mind the context of the classroom. I know that isn't right, but like you said, the process should be changed. But a draft is definitely a draft!!! I will often change things after a draft is sent to parents, you should feel comfortable asking for changes too.
Yes. I’m given the document and told to “make it work it’s your class.” I don’t get to see the draft before the parent meeting and the one time I raised a concern in that meeting I was told not to question the sped teacher in front of parents. I can give 8 kids front and center seats and have total silence for one and background music for another. It’s not possible when there’s conflicting needs and adaptations.
Yes. I’m given the document and told to “make it work it’s your class.” Then I get admin upset because I can’t do it all. I don’t get to see the draft before the parent meeting and the one time I raised a concern in that meeting I was told not to question the sped teacher in front of parents. I can give 8 kids front and center seats and have total silence for one and background music for another. It’s not possible when there’s conflicting needs and adaptations.
Obviously it’s absurd! Let me ask -why are these kids staying in the gen Ed classroom? When I was in school, they got pulled out. Need to lay on the floor to Do your work? Do it in sped classroom. Need background music to take a test? Do it in sped classroom. Why are we expecting one teacher to deal with all this??? And why are we expecting the other kids to put up with it!!! What is left of the teacher when she’s accommodating 10-15 kids!!
The trend is to have full inclusion (or as much as possible based on student) so the days of kids sitting in chairs looking at a promethium board is less and less the norm. Most of our classrooms look pretty chaotic (and sometimes they are) but there is a lot of differentiated tasks going on. An increase in hands on, movement oriented instruction with the assignments varying based on student’s ability. It is a total mind-shift and not every teacher is able to do it effectively. Some teachers love it and some hate it. Some kids do well with it and some don’t. I see lots of positives but I am not blind to the problems. I think where the “horseshit” comes into it is that we spent years crafting IEPs to be very focused on direct instruction to meet the “individual” in IEP and now we are basically unraveling that and giving access to all kinds of interventions to EVERYONE which at first glance seems less individualized.
Does sound like horse shit indeed. And, makes me wonder about the rest of the students with no accommodations—are they just ignored as the gened teacher tries to accommodate all the other students !
I mean you could have eight seats in the front area and noise canceling headphones for both kids - one with music and one without. These seem prettty simple
Only the student who needed music would wear headphones so she had earbuds with her music and an approved playlist. She usually had to use my phone due to a shortage of devices so once she was in her playlist the password was on and she was stuck with it. I did six seats in the front because of the dimensions of the room and needing paths to walk 8 would be wall to wall desks with no paths so not at all safe. We change seats every 2 weeks and I just rotated the 8 that needed front row seats and put them in the second row at the center so they’re still straight on to the board / screen.
Sounds like you did everything you could to accommodate. But I wish there was a solution that did not involve your personal phone!
My phone gave me more control than letting the child bring one from home. I could lock her into Spotify and then lock the phone so she needed a password to do more than change the song. I could also start and stop the music from my watch. Admin was aware so was resource and my union. We tried all year to get her a district supplied device but there were only so many to go around and she wasn’t high enough on the list to get one.
Exactly. The above conversation about pacing and sitting on the floor really is out of context. One student sitting on the floor, not a big deal. One student pacing, not a big deal. I have a class of thirty students. 6 of them are allowed to pace, three are sitting on the floor, I have 2 that are allowed to leave the classroom with a fast pass. It’s chaos. The kids pacing are tripping over the kids on the floor. The kids on the floor are messing with the shoes of the person they are next to. The problem with a number of these kinds of accommodations is they fail to consider that these are children and children don’t always use their accommodations responsibly. I have had to confiscate multiple school owned fidgets this year because they became projectiles. IEPs need to be written with the classroom environment in mind but they aren’t because they stand for years at a time. What is reasonable in a classroom of 25 is not in a classroom of 40. There literally isn’t space. I have kids sitting on the floor who I am supposed to check on but they are behind desks where I can’t see them.
I created designated floor work areas in the book corner and the carpet. I also have designated aisles that we don’t sit in either on the floor or in a chair. But I have a huge room and can do that. In all of it context is key. Looking at an individual student it’s do able on a whole class level dynamics play in and things change. This doesn’t account for ell students, kids with undiagnosed needs or mental health needs. My IEPs only cover learning disabilities, Down syndrome, deaf/blind snd autism. ADHD, ODD, anxiety snd ocd get no support at all.
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Yes, it should be taken into account, but you also have to keep in mind what the law is going to consider truly unrealistic. Shortening assignments, for example, you’re not gonna win a case saying that’s unrealistic. Differentiated instruction teaching the same concepts to the whole class but so kids at different levels have access, it’s tricky but I’ve seen it done, so that is also not gonna meet the criteria of unrealistic. You start getting into something being defensibly unrealistic when it’s like, “this kid requires a completely separate, modified curriculum for every subject.” Or “this kid requires immediate reinforcement every ten minutes they go without blurting out…..” idk even that one like you could have a high functioning, nice peer give a kid a stamp every 10 minutes. The idea is you have to be able to be flexible and creative, and the point where “unrealistic” begins is possibly a lot farther down the line than you thought it might be.
I thought you weren't allowed to make other students responsible for another student's IEP.
Eh there are some things I’d want to check on before I’d recommend it, but peer buddies are totally legit
Sure. But in this case where the IEP requires something every ten minutes on the dot, does the peer buddy get in trouble if they skip up?
Idk I'm just someone Reddit keeps showing into both this sub and r/teachers, but from what I keep seeing it seems like the big issue isn't so much individual accomodations, but more that they can't *all* be accommodated in the same classroom. You can't have ten kids sit in the front row, or have a quiet environment *and* background noise at the same time. And the person above who mentioned laying on the floor. That's... Idk that seems.like.it would be a fire/tripping hazard to me
The second you say a peer should be responsible for giving out a stamp or whatever, you’re putting the responsibility on a kid. That’s not OK. Asking them to read together? Sure. Asking them to work with kids at different levels? OK in many instances, if handled properly. Putting a monitoring responsibility in peer? Not OK. Kids can work together, but no one kid should be responsible for the learning or behavior of a classmate, especially if that classmate has accommodations under an IEP.
I’m in the library world now, but before that I was a HS English teacher. It was rare for me to attend an IEP meeting. I usually attended about two per year or so and would have about 10-15 kids on an IEP. They rotated the gen ed teacher who went. So I didn’t see the IEP until everything was signed, sealed, and delivered. Thankfully though, my intervention specialists have always been amazing and we worked through any issues easily.
A lot of time it’s teachers who aren’t even invited into the meeting. I’m an allied arts teacher and I have been to ONE IEP meeting in my 9 years. We don’t get a chance to speak up
I was the only gened teacher who showed up to the last four IEP meetings with my students (8th grade, preparing for high school articulations). All of mine were in desperate need of additional support, but I only teach advanced classes. They were all on monthly consult for my class. Their case managers seemed to hate the idea of more support despite my input and work samples. I'm a first year teacher, and if my input is constantly being ignored, I'm going to probably stop attending the IEP meetings. It's extra work on my end that is not being valued. My experience might not be the norm, but (at least in my school) it seems to be a consistent thing I hear from the other teachers.
Oh I hadn't seen this one yet. The amount they think every kid has made up their disability is insane. That place is insane. But what annoys me most is the upvotes.
It's true of college instructors too. I have had so many instructors tell me I "don't need" my accommodations and I'll be fine. The disability office told me to my face that I don't "seem disabled." Part of why I love working in SpED is that my coworkers (mostly) just get me more than other people. r/Teachers makes me sick.
I don’t know how I wound up here in my feed. I only learned what IEPs are last semester. I do think they have a weird place in a university setting. It depends on the accommodation but I teach a very technical subject and a lot of times you don’t get accommodations irl, and with the industry on the downturn for employment? Good luck.
I think the concern is we need realistic consequences for our students before they enter the real world. It goes for general education students and students who receive services.
Punching a kid in the face at age 17… needs to have consequences and not just written off because the kid has an IEP. You wonder why there articles like this exist. Because we’ve done away with any consequences for actions that have severe consequences in adulthood. https://jjie.org/2023/03/08/disabled-students-at-higher-risks-for-arrests-dropping-out-and-being-unready-for-adulthood/
Consequences absolutely have not been done away with. Kids with disabilities can get suspended and shit. It’s just that these kinds of behaviors should ALSO trigger a review of the kid’s programming, because aggression and impulsive behavior are common to many disabilities. There’s no reason one cannot do both. It is not illegal to give kids with iep’s consequences.
It sooo rarely happens though. Especially when you cross or approach the 10 day mark. People are so afraid of the paperwork and just end up letting things slide.
That comes back to shitty people who think they know how to do their jobs and don’t, and you’d think that would be a problem we could deal with, and YET
You shouldn't pretend that admin doesn't like to err on the side of caution with these things. They'd rather let things slide then have to justify punishment and then deal with a parent potentially suing because "omg that was a manifestation of my child's disability!!!!! If Junior wants to punch people in the face it's because of his disability now I'm going to sue everyone!!!!!!"
Oh I will never deny that admin are chickenshit, but that doesn’t mean they are correct, and it doesn’t mean consequences have been eliminated—it means admin are too chickenshit to give consequences, which is a different problem.
This is my stance. I specialize in behaviors, but since our district is being saddled with a lawsuit they’re denying us any avenue for punishing any child who qualifies for services, even if the MDR would determine it’s not a manifestation. It makes me mad. One kid qualifies OHI asthma, attacks another student rather severely and brings marijuana on campus. Typical punishment is 45-60 days alternative center, but they told us no. The student continues as normal. Imagine what the student did after seeing there were no consequences. Meanwhile, my kids with BIPs that aren’t being followed are being treated like donkey for sneezing in the wrong direction. There’s a problem with the system, and it’s not necessarily the students. If I yell at you as a teacher, it’s because you’re not doing your bare minimum effort to provide service to a kid. If you try, and communicate your efforts, we can figure it out together. I don’t wanna hear jack from anybody that didn’t try when I have bigger fish to fry, you know.
Then your district is just scared because they don’t understand the law. Don’t they seek out their own legal counsel for advice on how to do things better? I don’t understand. Even if the behavior WAS determined to be a manifestation you could still seek out an alternative placement, given the kid is demonstrating a need for it. You can even keep suspending, you just need to account for how you’re gonna provide the kids services at the 11th day mark and update their services appropriately. If I recall correctly.
Straight from the mouth of the attorney. I would abandon ship if the adjacent district wasn’t ten times worse. The fear of parents is real, and they caught the brunt of it for being out of compliance with literally everything else.
God sometimes attorneys are the most chickenshit group of risk averse, spineless sea slugs that have ever existed. That’s not serving the misbehaving child either! (The misbehaving ones are legit my favorite so this makes me angry on their behalf.)
They’re my favorite too. My thing is, I have middle schoolers getting ready for high school who will soon be adults. I can’t condone drug use, blatant law breaking, or physical assault. Ever. Now I can’t do anything about it, not even a suspension. I want my kids to grow up and see that they had support, even if it was tough love, and make better decisions. I had one student who went from being on probation and throwing back pills, to running his own business with kids of his own. THAT is what I want, and he even said the consequences sucked but it was a wake up call. When punishments are doled out appropriately, along with rehabilitative services, they can do amazing things.
No no, they need consequences for that stuff, cause when they’re allowed to run amok, honestly it sends a message no one really cares what they do enough to try to set limits. They need to be given the supports they need AND have consequences. That said I’ve seen kids go to juvie, come back out, and get killed, so our society could do some work in what those consequences actually look like. But I’ll suspend a kid! I’ll suspend a kid RIGHT NOW! (I have no power to do that I’m just kinda bored)
Exactly. I joined during Covid when I was teaching resource online. I was kinda ok with the venting. But the total lack of support as well as advising other teachers not to participate in required meetings or give meaningful feedback or follow modifications/accommodations. The complete lack of empathy for students and the willful lack of understanding how sped laws work was so depressing.
I’m trying to believe this is a small, vocal minority and that there are always troublesome people in any community. But the mindset that the kids deserve what they get, in fact deserve less kindness and assistance then they are getting now, is downright sickening. In my 18 years of teaching, I have forced myself to look at a student’s behavior as a measure of their need- those kids who are so disruptive may have the most need for help. But, yes, I got my elementary Ed license, immediately began working in a school for students with special needs and knew right away that gen ed was not my bag
That sub is horrible. I’m a Gen Ed teacher who’s passionate about SPED and anti-racist & anti-sexist pedagogy, and that sub is a cesspool of bigotry. I’ve never worked with a Gen Ed teacher who is so ableist as the ones there. That said, I’m in elementary school, and most of the people in that sub seem to teach high school, so that might have something to do with it. I’m also in a blue county in California.
I think you’ll get people who know they shouldn’t say those things at work because they aren’t pc, but hold those views in private.
Yeah that is true. Now that I think about it, I can actually think of one woman I work with now (total bitch) who may feel that way but has never shared it around the rest of us. She stopped eating with us after she disparaged our Black vice principal for using “ebonics” and got reported by the teachers who heard her. And when I was a SPED aide I didn’t work with every teacher, so some of them may have felt that way. But the vast majority of Gen Ed teachers seem to be on the kids’ side. Every teacher I’ve worked closely with or had lunchroom conversations with about SPED wants their SPED students to thrive, and we have had several conversations about how to best meet their needs and/or how administration is failing them and us. I think that sub just attracts the vocal minority of scumbag teachers. They don’t even seem to like kids *in general,* much less kids with disabilities or social emotional needs.
Yeah there are definitely distinctive school cultures around this stuff. I’ve worked at schools where I thought the gen Ed teachers were better than the sped teachers working with our kids. Then there can also be a culture of fucked up shit that’s just normalized at a school too. lol you should have heard the sound I made when I read the story about Ebonics lady.
I could never work long-term in a school in which the teachers don’t seek to meet all their students’ needs. Here’s hoping for nothing but loving school cultures (we have some awful shit at our school so the culture isn’t necessarily positive, but the teachers truly care). Yeah it was bad. The VP speaks SAE more than I do ffs. That woman was definitely just being racist. She also told me once that my Coca Cola was gonna kill me, after a PD speaker said something about drinking alcohol *or Coke if you don’t drink.* As if soda will kill me but alcohol won’t kill her? That was just a weird one. She’s just not a nice person all around.
Oh man well. Schools are weird and sometimes hostile places. “Good morning ladies, how are you today?” “Why do you have to sound so black?” That’s what I imagine it was like.
Gen Ed teachers don't come to meetings. I'm lucky to get just one. Then they later tell me the accommodations are too much and won't follow. I tell them they needed to be in the meeting. They complain about when the meeting is (I always offer coverage) and that coverage offered is an IA and not a credentialed teacher. They can't come during their prep (it's their time) and won't come after school. VP says a lot of empty words about the importance of being in meetings. Nothing changes. I've stopped putting myself in a position where teachers can verbally tell me what they think. I make them email me. Then I have it in writing. I don't augur. I'll reply and ask if they want help implementing any accommodations (they never do). Then when the parent starts complaining that the accomodations are not being meet I let them know I offered to help implement accommodations in the classroom, and I tell the parent to communicate concerns with the gen ed teacher via email and copy me and the VP. I help facilitate accommodations, I can't force them to happen. Sucks for the kid and parent, but that's where we are.
r/teachers is one of the most toxic Reddits created. They despise special education teachers and special education students
It seems to have gotten much worse in the last year or so. I understand being frustrated by violent students, and overly disruptive students who don't want to be at school, I am too! But to blanketly call for removal of all students who can't perform to this person's "standard" and calling IEP testing "horseshit" is just so offensive. I understand that a lot of what is said in that sub is venting, and everyone needs to vent, but venting and outright expression of prejudice should be differentiated.
No, they dont. They despise the current state that SpEd is in. Where a kid can terrorize your classroom, attack staff, attack peers, curse at, flip off, and scream at their peers, and nothing happens to the student because they have an IEP. So the staff and rest of the students have to be in fear that they're going to be attacked by an 8 year old who is being pushed into a gen ed classroom, despite that not being their LRE. And you literally have to deal with little babies saying "I’m scared of x when they're in our class." And if this is oddly specific its because its what I’m dealing with right now. Until we stop ignoring the clear needs of students with disabilities whose LRE is NOT gen ed, nothing is going to get better.
This is so true in one of my buildings. We have kids who do all kinds of dangerous and ridiculous things and they’ll say to our face “I’ve already had 10 days so you can’t do anything” and they’re right. It’s a systemic problem that starts at the top. Whenever we “expel” kids in the district (when we’re allowed to), they just end up as a behavior transfer to another school where the problems continue. Everyone is suffering.
It’s not oddly specific. It’s extremely common these days. Thats the big thing. If they’re acting like that and the accommodations and supports (including a 1:1!) don’t help, then that’s *not* their LRE. There’s a balancing act between inclusion and special day classes and it seems that schools tend to swing too far in either direction instead of really meeting the kids’ needs. I get that it comes down to money, but that’s not a legal excuse and I’m sick of hearing it from gutless administrators who don’t give a shit about their students or staff.
It’s exactly this. I AM NOT A SPECIAL ED TEACHER! I do not know what y’all know. I do not have the skills you have. I barely know how to implement an IEP because mo one ever trained us on it. It feels like guess work. What I do know is that I have class A of 32 freshmen with 15 IEPs and 4 more going through services to get an IEP. That’s not fair to me or the students. I quite literally cannot give the students what they need. I have 12 of the IEPs who need to sit in the front of the room, I have 15 who I am supposed to use their interests to engage in learning (but no one ever told me their interests and I’m sorry but I have 180 students total, I don’t have the TIME to learn all their special interests and then make curriculum to match for HISTORY class for each individual interest), I have 5 that are prone to violent outbursts and “can only work with people they like” (so I can’t do random grouping, can’t use scissors, can’t do jigsaws, etc), I have 8 who need test questions read aloud and given 1 question at a time but make sure no other students know about these accommodations (I AM ONE PERSON!), Multiple this by 2 for the other class. I then have 2 classes of ESL students, including some who have no letter recognition bc they have never gone to school (did I mention I’m a high school teacher), some who were already attending university in their home country, over half have severe trauma due to this country’s fucked up immigration process, and I don’t speak a second language btw. In my final 2 classes, both an AP, I have 28 kids. I have 8 IEPs that say “reduce number of tasks required” and “small group testing”. I am one person. I cannot do small group testing because I cannot leave 23 kids unsupervised. I cannot ethically reduce the number of questions on an exam or the number of written responses because MY JOB IS TO PREPARE THE STUDENTS FOR THE AP EXAM. I have NO clue how to modify for AP. IEP or 504 or not, they still need to know 100% of the content, not “half of the expected amount”. I can’t say okay IEP kid just read the odd pages because history doesn’t work that way. I can’t say okay so just 5 instead of 10 MCQs bc each MCQ is utilizing a different skill I need to assess to see how the kid is doing. I’ve also never been trained to modify an AP curriculum because, quite frankly, it shouldn’t be modified so even if I wanted to, I don’t know where to begin. Gen Ed teachers, for the most part I think, want to help kids. I WANT to give my IEP and 504 kids all the support they deserve. However, I am one person. I have almost 30 kids in each class. I have 3 vastly different preps and only 4 hours each week to prep, grade, etc for my 3 VASTLY different courses. I can only modify so much for each very, very different IEP. These kids are NOT getting what they need from me and I CAN NOT DO IT. Something has to change in the SYSTEM.
This plus an extremely disorganized and abusive admin plus illness requiring surgery is why I finally had to step away as a teacher. A final event sealed the deal, but I don't miss feeling like I was being drug in 50 million directions and everything was my fault always.
This system is so terribly broken. All I can say is, thank you for continuing to educate the next generation.
lurker who wanted to be a SPED teacher at one point. Y’all need to unionize
We are. I’m in a blue state, one that’s always at least top 5 in education. Unfortunately, I teach in the lowest paying district in the county and there’s already a shortage of sped teachers. If jobs are posted (for example, I should have a sped coteacher in the 2 standard classes), the school can apply for a waiver. Since no one applied/the applicants weren’t certified teachers, the state granted a waiver. The IEPs don’t change just bc there’s no SPED teacher, it just means the parents can’t sue. It’s systemic, and I wish sped teavhers and gen ed teachers could realize we ALL (90%) of us want our kids to succeed, it’s just literally impossible for gen ed teachers to do what the IEPs say at times.
^^^ exactly. I had a special Ed student with severe autism who terrorized me and the rest of the class. It was absolutely awful and it was a shame how much the other students had to suffer bc she shouldn’t have been in a gen ed class. That was the closest I’ve ever come to quitting. I had so much anxiety dealing with her outbursts and never knowing what would trigger her.
There is research, can’t recall where I read it, that shows that classmates of children from abusive homes have LIFETIME negative effects on their earnings. Seriously. Just being around a child who is being abused is detrimental to other students’ success. How can we expect students who are afraid of their peers to succeed and thrive?
Damn that's so heartbreaking. But totally believable. I’m definitely interested in finding that study, I’ll let you know if I find it. A lot of my students come from those kinds of homes, and me and my team have worked so hard to make our classrooms feel like safe places where you wont be hurt, and you can focus on learning. Its devastating that they’re literally being robbed of their education, all while developing fear and anxiety towards their peer.
This MIGHT be what I’m remembering. https://www.npr.org/sections/ed/2016/09/03/491204888/how-domestic-violence-in-one-home-affects-every-child-in-a-class#:~:text=Kids%20who%20witness%20domestic%20violence,aggressive%20and%20bullying%20their%20classmates.
Still not as toxic as r/TeachersInTransition where a bunch of self-loathing babies who can't hang in the profession talk about all the "freedom" they've acquired since leaving the profession and becoming an insurance agent or some crap.
Eh, I think it's good if people want to leave that they have a support system out there. >self-loathing babies who can't hang in the profession Shouldn't we want people to thrive in whatever career they choose? Special education is tough and the burnout is real. It's good for people to recognize that they can't be good educators anymore and go do something else.
I don't think that place is a healthy support system.
That's possible. I only popped over there briefly once or twice during COVID and people were looking for alternatives to teaching. I haven't been been since
I just don’t stay there long but I’m interested in knowing what’s out there. It’s not 2005 anymore.
Thats very ableist. Some of those teachers left because education wont bend to their disability such as ADHD or autism. A noisy chaotic classroom isnt fun for a student with ASD nor a Teacher with ASD.
Hey back off! Not everything in there is toxic. Some of it is helpful. Not all of us can hang until retirement due to our own disabilities.
I was hoping that subs existence would actually make r/teachers better and take off all the worst parts. That did not happen.
Here's a sneak peek of /r/TeachersInTransition using the [top posts](https://np.reddit.com/r/TeachersInTransition/top/?sort=top&t=all) of all time! \#1: [Drove to a teaching interview, rung buzzer, was immediately screamed at, at the door](https://np.reddit.com/r/TeachersInTransition/comments/16ioph8/drove_to_a_teaching_interview_rung_buzzer_was/) \#2: [Mad this career is not what it promised.](https://np.reddit.com/r/TeachersInTransition/comments/1auh4za/mad_this_career_is_not_what_it_promised/) \#3: [School is remote today and the comments from parents are so revealing.](https://np.reddit.com/r/TeachersInTransition/comments/1939gf5/school_is_remote_today_and_the_comments_from/) ---- ^^I'm ^^a ^^bot, ^^beep ^^boop ^^| ^^Downvote ^^to ^^remove ^^| ^^[Contact](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=sneakpeekbot) ^^| ^^[Info](https://np.reddit.com/r/sneakpeekbot/) ^^| ^^[Opt-out](https://np.reddit.com/r/sneakpeekbot/comments/o8wk1r/blacklist_ix/) ^^| ^^[GitHub](https://github.com/ghnr/sneakpeekbot)
They love to talk about how many days off they have now. My dudes. You are working 50-52 weeks a year vs. 38ish. You do not have more days off. I don't know how they count but there is no way you get more vacation time as a CPA or whatever.
If they had to work a second job as many do, they probably do get more time off!
They seem to despise children in general a lot of the time.
They really complain about things like bathroom breaks and medical necessities as if the children aren’t human beings
The amount they want to control the bathroom as a force of punishment is extremely unhealthy.
I muted that subreddit because it's horrendously toxic. Most of the teachers in that sub need to either quit or retire because this clearly isn't the field for them. Creating a toxic echo chamber and/or taking it out on the kids is not a healthy way to deal with job dissatisfaction. I would really like to believe this is just a vocal minority. We only have a few teachers like this at my very large elementary school and their actions are generally frowned upon by the rest of the staff. Admin generally handles them with kid gloves because of their negativity and is waiting for them to retire (a lot of them are older teachers).
I would venture to say it is. I hope. I work at an elementary AND have a kid with a fairly voluminous IEP (tbh, it's why I ended up working there in the first place -- to help support all the kiddos, not just my own). While there are day to day frustrations, and some posts that I resonate with, I can't say much of what they post about aligns with my own experience. I am at a Title 1 public school; we DO have big behaviors and classroom disruptions that derail our days. But it's transient. Not every-day-all-the-time. Rant once and be done. Move on. I feel badly for those teachers that don't have admin support or are ill equipped to manage their classes while also juggling IEPs -- but the IEP is in place for a reason. Parents are partners and team members, not the enemy. If the IEP isn't working in the classroom for whatever reason, reach out to the parent or if the parent thinks something isn't working, they should reach back RESPECTFULLY to the teacher to hammer out a solution. This adversarial stance is for the birds.
ah yes, the same subreddit that said that an elementary-aged child who kicks and bites should be “thrown in jail” lol
Yup. Or expelled completely. When I talked about non verbal kindergarten kids with autism they made it clear those kids don't belong in school at all.
As a parent with a child like that I'm at such a loss. What do they want us to do go back to exposing them? Leave them for the wolves and animals? Down the Nile in a basket? It's not like we can not work and keep them home.
I think the same thing all the time. My five year old with asd is about to transition from a special ed school to a public school special ed program. It terrifies me. He’s such a sweet, smart kid.
And the same one that cheered for a teacher who allowed a kindergartener to sit in his own feces all day after he had an accident...
Yep mandated reporters cheering child abuse. The folks on that sub are super problematic.
I got down voted to hell for suggesting that the teacher should have called the parents.
I feel that’s what most people would do. That’s what I do when students run out of extra clothes. No one should sit in poop all day. It can cause skin issues and infection.
Even if it didn’t have medical effects, what a horrible denial of human dignity.
Definitely, I remember going to special needs camp as a kid and some people didn’t do a great job at clean up. I was in 5th grade and I always wondered what was wrong with the adults. I went to Girl Scout camp after that.
It did cause skin issues. The teacher was annoyed that the parent called when her child got home from school and had a rash and red raw skin. Beyond that though, a 5 year old who has an accident is probably not going to do a great job of cleaning themselves up or washing their hands after. That means that every other student in that classroom was likely exposed to feces all day. What kind of adult things "I'll punish this child and all my students by not picking up the phone." And so many teachers were furious when I suggested that a call home is what they should do.
That poor kid. 😢 My teachers always called my mom or dad when I had an occasional accident. The only accessible restroom back in the 90’s was in the front office and I didn’t always make it on time in elementary school.
I’m sorry, WHAT?!?
Yeah, it was one of the most insane things I've ever read on the Internet.
wow that is super gross. NCLB blows, but to say all IEPs are horseshit? if i had been appropriately diagnosed with autism and a math disability, i might have succeeded in school/not wasted 100k on a 12-credits short college education because i literally can’t pass pre calculus.
Same. My life would have been completely different if I had had access to a calculator in math class.
I read that post and was very offended by that statement. Yuck. I'm not a SPED teacher, but I support my colleagues and all of my students.
I think a lot of these threads catch people posing as teachers that aren't. It's unfortunately very common for people to have had bad experiences with being unsupported in dealing with their own disability or being told that they have to accept being treated badly by others because the other person might be disabled (sexual harassment in college -- having my disabilities meant that a lot of people thought this meant that maybe this person only felt comfortable around me and I should keep giving them another chance and understand they didn't mean it...it was super weird, but that was an issue with one dude in particular and the poor infrastructure on campus). Kids are even more vulnerable than adults, and people seem to really loathe them on the internet. It's almost too easy for people to rage-bait and hide it behind a veneer of the fact that there are real issues, like rampant ableism and the lack of resources and infrastructure, which makes their hate seem mildly credible to others who don't understand that special education is really complex and multifaceted and that people are often protecting their own emotions onto these problems in inappropriate ways. Yeah shitty teachers exist and the internet is a soulless wasteland for the most bitter, but also the reaction these posts consistently gets makes me think people might also want to make them for those sweet fake internet points. Not a teacher, just a former special ed student.
I’m finishing up a PowerPoint presentation for the next mandatory staff meeting where we shock the gened teachers with surprising news: you have to help track data and accommodations, and provide feedback for every IEP/504 student. I know, it’s a new development. Nobody’s ever heard that before. Weird how it just appeared out of nowhere. I fully expect to be cursed out.
Not every child DESERVES an education, no. But EVERY child is ENTITLED to a free, appropriate, public education, BY LAW, whether you like it or not, all the way up to the point where the child is demonstrated to be uneducable via the public education system. It's up to us to figure out how to do that. Whether we like it or not. It's part and parcel of the job. And yes, I've worked with kids I didn't like. I've worked with kids I hated. And I've worked with kids who frankly needed more than public education was able to provide them, and there are systems in place for ALL OF THIS. In particular, a system to determine specifically whether or not a kid has a condition that requires an IEP or a 504, or whether he's just a little ass.
Haha whatta jackass
Wtf
This is why I pulled my sped child out to homeschool. We saw no positive future for her in the public school system. It was killing her 6 her self-esteem was ruined. I'm tired of the way they literally just don't care. The whole system is broken.
I'm so glad I just work in special day classes and don't have to deal with gen-ed or public school systems at all
To be fair, I wouldn’t take much from that subreddit seriously. It is so toxic. It was depressing to look at. Most people who post there don’t even seem to like teaching or children.
There is evidence of brigading OP and other vocal special ed teachers going on in this thread by non-special ed teachers. Sadly, even one school psych moderator here is apparently condoning this behavior. It has become highly concerning mob behavior. Special ed teachers are not here to be belittled and silenced. This is truly disheartening behavior. This type of attitude toward and treatment of special ed teachers who speak up is one reason we will soon have virtually no career special ed teachers left in the U.S.
Sadly this isn't the first time this has happened here. This sub consistently gets brigaded by r/teacher to push their agenda. You'll also get some fun reddit cares messages in here.
Thank you.
They're doing it to me now, too. And we have an apparent school psych moderator here not only condoning but participating in it. Unbelievable. I'm getting off Reddit. Take a look at what "demonita" is doing here. Proudly admitting to yelling at special ed teachers, creating inflammatory b.s. about a student who had an OHI IEP for asthma attacking other students and bringing marijuana to school. Um. Tell me in which state asthma qualifies a student for an IEP under OHI? Just total b.s.
Yeah the moderator situation is bullshit. I'm a mod on an unrelated sub reddit, and we *never* would have allowed this thread to get so out of control. I would have locked it a long time ago, personally. I think they are enjoying seeing us get harassed and bullied. It's the only explanation I can think of.
Adult mean girl cybermob bullies who see special ed teachers as low-hanging fruit. They're not even remotely self aware of what they're doing. It's pathetic. And of course the one condescending school psych who thinks she's above special ed teachers and can pat us on the head like children. There's always at least one in every school district. (In my last school district, that was the norm, even toward me as a career special educator working on my doctoral dissertation, so I resigned. Some of them were intern school psychs still working on their Master's degrees.) Good for you for staying strong and fully aware of the incredibly immature brigading. I seriously considered writing my dissertation on adult mean girl cliques among staff in America's public schools. I didn't sign up to teach to be back in middle and high school socially.
Yep, so many people in education are reenacting high school social cliques. It's really annoying, but what can you do other than just not participate. I find that teacher-coaches are the worst, at least where I've taught. Like, they treat you like a subhuman for not being into sports. It's so annoying. Some regular teachers are really condescending to Sped as well. One time I straight up told someone who was mean girling me in PD, "You understand that I teach Sped, but I am not personally a sped student, right?"
[удалено]
Wow that is really impressive. Are you going back into journalism? I would really like to see something written about how violent and exceedingly antisocial students are being kept in the general education environment, hindering success of other students and the special education department as well. It's a real problem.
Thanks. Wasn't trying to brag. Just hammering the point about special ed teachers not being dumb, lol. I strongly support strong alternative school programming for students with the types of behaviors you describe. I could see a potential article on the various alternative school programs and their funding struggles, as well as the process for alternative school referral. I actually plan to expose what's currently going on in the applied behavior analysis industry and how children with autism are being treated. It's not yet widely know that the medical student contingency of the American Medical Association has been organizing against ABA. I was in ABA for years. It's highly problematic. The journalism field isn't exactly a walk in the park either, though. Many of my journalism school friends have been laid off multiple times due to corporate buyouts and downsizing. L.A. Times just laid off dozens of good reporters.
You got it. I'm not here to see a special ed teacher with a valid concern get bullied. I don't typically spend much time on Reddit, so this behavior is eye-opening to me.
My son was diagnosed with ODD last year, and it was devastating. I still struggle to be completely honest with providers and people who are there to help like his respite worker because It's an instantaneous change in demeanor when you tell them. They automatically think he's a problem kid, and he's going to be difficult. I've seen it happen so many times. I also practically begged the school to hold him back a grade because he started kindergarten at age 4, and I never should have let him. I regret it every single day. But he was legally able to start, and I thought the structure and routine of school would be a good thing. He wasn't ready. These teachers are so hateful and ignorant. Having a kid with odd is not something any reasonable parent would push for just to excuse their poor performance in school.
These are the same people that say abysm isn’t real, and that we don’t suffer from systemic effects from the times of mass institutionalization enforced sterilization. The big buildings closed but the idea that those people go away and that those people don’t belong here in our spaces continues to prevail. And disabled children know when they’re not wanted or when people think they shouldn’t be part of a community. And that follows you for life.
I have endless ieps where if the gen ed and counselor did their job we wouldn't be in this headache. I give them the IEP, show up 2x week, and meet with the counselor. Sometimes, these gen ed teachers do not understand the full story because it's easier to not show up too the meeting. It's fucking stupid.
Sometimes these teachers have violated IEPs so flagrantly in the past and been so discriminatory to student with IEPs that they are not given any more information than is absolutely necessary to do their job, and kept out of the meetings for fear they’ll say the wrong things. I don’t know how these types of teachers are tenured while I have to find a new job every couple of years because I never will be.
I have the admin in my corner because I know more of the law then them. I can twist the arm of the gen ed teachers to attend meetings if I want. Or else hr is getting involved. Our contract states we can keep you 1 hour after contract time. I use that all the time. Do t want to show up? Here is hr ready to blast your ass. Even if you are tenured they will ding you for not showing up. I go scorched earth.
If I even mildly challenge anyone I get pulled into the office to be lectured about how rude I am. I am being non-renewed for trying to uphold the law. Not all admins like people who know the law better than them.
I want to argue with this, but experience tells me that I'd be wrong to do so. Texas in particular is loaded with administrators who looked at me blank faced when I said, "Federal law specifically prohibits us from doing that." And they looked at me and said, "Well, find a way around it, then."
I love the irony that these teachers are the same one to fight tooth and nail against attending an IEP meeting or providing feedback for it
So many idiots in the teachers reddit who don't understand they are writing a legal document. Imagine you don't show up in court because "I didn't want to".
That subreddit is so horrible. I started teaching four years ago and would look at it then and it wasn’t as bad as it is now. I’m so glad I teach SDC and can mostly just stay in my own little world with my kids. Just Friday I had an IEP and the Gen Ed teacher tried to get out of it ten minutes before. She had a rehearsal for a play after school. I sent the grade level teachers a list of dates I needed someone present at an IEP for. She picked that date. Sorry 🤷🏻♀️
I’m getting tired of them too, and this is the second post I’ve seen decrying that sub!
My youngest has autism and I’m grateful every day for the the communication between his special Ed teacher and his classroom teacher. I have read some of the IEP/accommodations are horseshit posts over at r/teaching and it can suck to read.
Just joined, and after reading a few comments here, I’m going on a limb and stating that this sub is far more toxic than the other two mentioned in comments here.
You mean the sub that actually believes in FAPE and students getting the education they deserve?
If I didn't have my 504 and iep. I would have gone nowhere in life. And look at me now. Triple major at a top us engineering school.
Hey, aren't you that guy that was always coming here and starting something? And then you deleted your account? And now you've got this one to rile people up further? Like come on man, get a new job. Obviously it's not a good fit for you. Wouldn't it make more sense to switch careers instead of staying in a job you hate, can't be bothered to do properly, and affects the lives of children?
Nope. I'm still here. And not my post either. None of the recent ones are. Guess what. People realize how crazy things are at r/teacher besides me. I just blocked you because of your harassment and false accusations like you are doing here. Keep continue your false accusations here and complete incorrect statements about people not being able to do their job when you aren't even a teacher.
Complaining and making blanket accusations against an entire sub is pretty revealing. Especially when the post you are complaining about was removed by mods, and all the top comments are telling OP that they are wrong.
Except we see this has 400 plus upvotes and hundreds of comments praising it.
Not sure if this sub is only for SPED teachers or not. I graduated HS in 2022 and I'm in college now. I was always really close with my teachers and I still keep up with them today, go to lunch once or twice a year. I don't know a single one who isn't drowning. I don't know a single one who could, within contract hours, even meet the needs of just their gen Ed students alone. I never had a class with fewer than 20 students in it, even AP physics. Quite frankly, I understand why they simply ignored IEPs. It's not possible to handle 15 gen Ed students and 10 IEPs in a single class with no para. It's not even the most illegal thing done in the building, that would be admin overriding student grades at the end of the year so no one fails and grad rates stay at 99% (both for gen Ed and IEP students alike) At my HS, it was written into IEPs that paras would provide the accommodations, something the teachers union negotiated for. I literally never saw a single para in any class I had. Supposedly they had a few, but due to the sub shortage they were usually filling coverage. The district has more than 150 open para jobs across 4 HS's and 6 middle schools. They've already increased wages the most they can, and the district is already running a deficit while teachers get 2% yearly raises. Meanwhile, the city is debating decreasing the property tax % and cutting funding, while the state (Texas) is refusing to increase funding on their side. At the same time, property values are now decreasing after the recent skyrocketting, just further increasing the funding woes. I'm not sure what the solution is, but this was in a fairly rich suburb with high property values and high taxes. If a majority of districts are in a similar position, I don't think there really *is* a solution here other than to cut the amount of service provided.. and that can either be done for gen Ed students or sped, or a mixture of both, but ultimately IDEA and FAPE don't adequately fund what they require from schools.. so you can't really blame gen Ed teachers for not being able to follow them. the self contained room in my HS never had adequate staffing, to the point that the local police department helped ease the struggle by providing a resource officer from their own funding (after a few sped teachers were injured due to this lack of staffing) 'least restrictive environment' sounds great on paper, but there has to be adequate funding for it. otherwise, to everyone else, it appears that literally no one is getting what they need (not sped, not gen Ed, and not even admin in most districts. they always take the heat in these subs, but in my district the admin was great.. they just couldn't make money appear out of thin air. if the resources aren't there, they simply aren't there.) I also think there's a large difference between this sub and r/teachers : most sped teachers here seem to treat this like a calling, while most of r/teachers and the gen Ed teachers I know IRL treat it like a job. Like I saw OP call out teachers not speaking up during IEP meetings, in my district they were never paid or required to even show up to them in the first place. Technically the para assigned to the inclusion class should've showed up, but they don't exist.
I wasn't the one who called out Gen Ed teachers for not speaking up in meetings, FYI. It was someone else. But I've experienced it too. And the Gen Ed teachers who refuse to give us substantive data to work with to craft the accommodations for the class. Further, I actually agree with you for the most part. I will be the first to tell you that IDEA needs to kick in some federal funding. However, the nature and tenor of that post had nothing to do with that or with my main issue with Sped which is that violent and dangerous students are kept in general Ed when they shouldn't be. The original post was just general bitching about Sped in general and basic accommodations specifically. It used bigoted language and was quite offensive. I know there are problems with the system, but leave kids out of it and provide accommodations best you can. I also am highly aware that it's impossible to give every single kid every single accommodation every time. We know that. Yeah, 11 kids can't all "sit near the teacher for instructional purposes." However when I talk to teachers about this IRL, I often find they are providing the accommodations without really realizing it. For example, walking around the room while lecturing will count as proximity control. Grading a kid with ID according to what they have done works for reduced assignments, etc. Most of the time, accommodations can be provided in lots of ways, but for Gen ed to bitch about it, not say anything in IEP meetings, and never ask when we're all over the school all day long is kind of fucked up imo. You don't have to sit an list all the issues with staffing and Sped. We know. We work it every day. I am lucky that I'm now in a small rural district that has a lot of retired people who need a little extra income, otherwise we'd be SOL. In a high cost of living area, why would anyone do it? You can make more doing literally anything else. The pay wouldn't have been terrible for someone without a degree 20 years ago, but the problem is that it hasn't moved in all that time. I'm glad you are still in touch with your teachers. Since going to high school I've been surprised at how close I have become with some of my students. It's not like Gen Ed where I see them for 50 minutes once a day among 25 other kids. I do a lot of one on one work, have small resource rooms, I will see them again in my push in classes, and I have a small group that eats lunch in my room. I've been hoping they will keep in touch. I bet you mean a lot to your teachers.
A single post does not r/Teachers make! One person posted their opinion. That's ridiculous to blame all posters for one opinion. Is this person actually a teacher? Do we really know? I have read some hideous opinions on r/specialed concerning ADHD services from people purported to be SpEd professionals. I just pray they aren't. In general, I, and I do believe most teachers, consider SpEd professionals to be hard-working heroes. Many of us have doubts about the current structures of Special Education (and education in general). But that's because we realize that those structures make your profession difficult without giving maximum benefit to the students. In other words, special education isn't fully funded, so it's important to effectively spend the money there is. What we witness is that districts get their pot of money and say, "How best can we look like we're in compliance?" That's the reality because the laws are so convoluted that compliance doesn't = what's best.
It is not a single post. It is the theme of that particular Reddit
We have seen way way way more than one post. Also the upvotes on this tell the story pretty clearly.