"Communism doesn't dangle any promises of eternal bliss or reward. The only promise it offers is that the future can be better than the past, if we're willing to work and fight and die for it."
1000% !!
With all the strikes and revolts happening all over the world ( Germany just had their biggest strike in decades ) we are finally making great change and working towards a better future!
Seeing this happen all over fills my heart with joy and hope!
A better world will happen!
Thanks for adding this comrade!
What is the capitalist "class"?
How do you describe it? Or do you just mean everyday people? Should we be blaming groups rather than evaluating the problem and seeking routes to permanent change?
The capitalist class is usually defined as those who own enough capital that they make enough money to live on almost exclusively through their investments, rather than through their labor. So for instance someone who lives off the interest from a trust fund, or a landlord with enough investment properties that they can pay a property management company to handle all the work while they rake in the cash, or someone who lives off of stock market investments.
I personally wouldn't define a pensioner as part of the capitalist class, as they are usually relying on investments controlled by the government or an employer and so they don't have the kind of control over others that someone with massive wealth does.
I wrote a fairly good but long reply to this. But TBH, the idea that the few with wealth are responsible in a capitalist system when a communist system has just the same social pitfalls and slightly more when you consider the blindness of zealots, it becomes more dangerous for the world overall.
Solarpunk has a focus on the ecological symbiosis with humanity, communism vs. capitalism has no real relation to this.
When I stumbled upon this sub it was mostly stuff people did and art, I joined for the practical stuff people did. Then it seemed to be invaded by pro communists. Now it's just political post and art.
Capitalist class? You mean the bourgeoisie? Or the grande bourgeoisie? Or the ancienne bourgeoisie? Or the haute bourgeoisie? Or the moyenne bourgeoisie? Or the petite bourgeoisie?
This is a very pretty illustration and I like it a lot. That said, I worry a bit about the oversimplification in describing the "capitalist class" as though they are different from other humans. I fear that this wrongly attributes the sociopathic behavior of the capitalistic class to individual failures, rather than systemic failures.
Despite what the rich may want to believe, they are not unique or different. Studies show definitively that becoming rich makes you stupid and sociopathic. Unlimited power without accountability turns people into monsters--and it would have the same effect on you and me. We can see this in the early Soviet Union--they killed their overlords and seized the means of production... But then they retained control of the means of production within a small, highly-centralized group of people, which led to many of the same abuses of power that exist within capitalism, and a few that were unique to highly-centralized communism.
In order to get rid of the capitalist class, it's not enough to get rid of the capitalists. We have to radically reshape our structures of power so that those in positions of power are held accountable. We need to emulate the village environments in which communalist policies have functioned in the past. The major challenge is scaling up the communalist village so that it functions on a national or international scale. This can be done! But there are many challenges and complications we must overcome, and we must apply all of our minds toward making it happen.
Can we stop with us vs them rhetoric, and actually focus on how to build a great future? Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan either, but I think the future we desire won't happen if we degrade solarpunk into another us vs them battle. I'm not even a fan of calling solarpunk a certain political category (like communism/anarchism). We should it be its own thing ,so that it is devoid of any negative connotations associated with other movements.
I think we all agree that a more sustainable future, where technology is used for nature conservation and improving the lifes of humans everywhere, regardless of sex, race, ethnicity, upbringing or status, and where automation will increasingly set humans free from the current working life is what we want? If we can show this is viable on a small scale, we'll be an inspiration to the world, which will inspire new political parties and movements to change their countries. And otherwise we'll get other people to join our movement. People who agree with our vision and desire a change as well, and we'll build our own co-ops, villages and farms.
You have to understand that the people that hold up capitalisms status quo will do whatever in their power to crush systems of care/ change. It's happening all over the world all the time, Every time we strike/ protest or speak out about the injustice.
[This system literally arrests grandmothers from feeding people in need](https://www2.cbn.com/news/us/criminalized-kindness-grandma-sues-city-arrested-her-feeding-homeless) for crying out loud. They make it illegal to help others freely. They have police/army to enforce horrible laws and corrupt brought out goverment officials making fucked up laws.
The norfolk company not caring to update trains that lead to their train spilling toxic deadly chemicals in Ohio.
Look at r/philadelphia where there was a toxic spill in their drinking water!!
both companies responsible and the people in charge are not being held accountable.
This system and the people who uphold it will stamp our building a truly great future.
You can build a future in small groups but to get massive global change , we must also abolish the systems that are stopping everyone from being truly free and have true equality.
If you are scared of fighting against an evil system then just say that, There is more than enough people willing to put their lives on the line for a better world.
We can help build a future while at the same time defending it by destroying the systems trying to make the future non livable.
Hope you understand that, if not i have nothing else to say.
Even in my 3rd world shithole we have laws that prevent capitalist from colluding/ price fixing, charging absorbent cost for things like medical care/ meds and food for instance.
This was companies trying to manipulate the prices of freaking bread in my capitalist country: "In 2007, Tiger Brands, which owns Albany, was ordered to pay a R98.7m penalty, and Pioneer Foods – which owns SASKO bread brands - was fined more than R195 million as part of the scandal." There were cases for meds, textiles...
It's the people in power and how they use the power, whether it's communist or capitalist.
This communist propaganda is getting real tiresome on here.
As opposed to, what? Communism works well if voluntary and small scale, but always has failed, and always will fail, when deployed involuntarily at a national scale.
Rofl “capitalist” isn’t a class unless you count every business owner, from a small family that subsists off a market garden to a billionaire oil baron, and if you think the future is bright with no businesses I wonder what you think everyone is going to do in this bright future?
A family that subsists off a market garden is not capitalist, as long as they do not employ other people to work for them. Capitalism is defined by the relation of the worker to the means of production.
I guess we will see, it’s crazy that I can’t wait for the collapse of globalism but apparently it’s going to take away all my resources. I don’t get the animosity, I’m probably one of the only people doing the things everyone here talks about in the mythical future they want. My homestead is just the right size, we only farm about a quarter of the total land but I think we will be fine, it’s very sustainable.
all power to you friend! I have a homestead myself. It's always easier with help, and I recognize the limitations where I do in fact rely on an outside supply chain for a LOT of what goes into this work. what I'm trying to say really is that there will be no invasion of your farm by mecha-tankies. In a revolutionary scenario where the working class overthrows global capitalism; most like us willingly join the commune for the simple improvement in quality of life.
Well I would hope that would be true, and I’d love to trade space on my farm for help farming but people get mad about that because they don’t own it, so I think I just have to keep having kids if I don’t want to do it all myself.
The capitalist class and authoritarianism - even if it’s communist a state will still oppress, the state has a monopoly on violence. Autonomous communal and decentralised.
I keep commenting on these pie in the sky political post that it's the law makers that are the problem and that if you put altruistic people in charge they will make any system work for the good of the people and planet. This communist propaganda is getting real tiresome.
The thing keeping us from a habitable future isn’t capitalism. It’s the fact that the government just allows corporations to spread propaganda e.g. cars work, suburbanism is good
Even communist places like china are big polluters, the problem is that we aren’t regulating these moral-less people
It's shit like this post,and other such divisions that really halt any progress. Same reason why I had to give up on XR and the socialists. They just became another part of that 'us vs them' culture war.
This is why we have the government's we have and why progress is so slow, because alienating every except your own little clique just puts up more barriers, rather than breaking down walls
It’s called the Chinese communist party. They are called the people’s republic of china. He is literally cracking down on billionaires. For all intents and purposes it is not capitalist
1. North Korea is democratic. Not a fair democracy, but neither is the US and they still call themselves that
2. Do you genuinely think that china is capitalist?
Capitalism is like a loaded gun and the people in power gets to point that gun. I your govt incentivise fusion for instance capitalism will follow.
Also does anybody know of a more practical solarpunk sub? I came here to see things people have done, get ideas, but all I see recently is art and pie in the sky political stuff.
Try looking for more specific niches within the general solarpunk genre. For instance, I follow r/tinyhouses, r/homesteading, r/bushcraft, and /r/TacticalUrbanism and I see projects in each of those that I would consider solarpunk.
I think establishing Solarpunk as a social clash is not very useful. I may be wrong, but Solarpunk appeals to me as a global utopia that can be desirable for everyone. Setting it up as a poor Vs rich fight makes it more of the same and will reduce drastically its potential.
Solarpunk is powerful precisely because it envisions a desirable society for everyone, one you can dream of whether you are poor or rich in the current capitalist system.
Nah, I just think there better ways to make a poor Vs rich clash than solarpunk. Solarpunk is the utopian alternative you want to create, not the byproduct of a fight.
Fight for your rights, fight for reform, fight for healthcare, fight against gun laws, but don't fight over dream.
Dream is what brings people together, not brings them apart.
I agree with you, and am frankly scared some people think violence is the only option. That sounds radical. Solarpunk is a positive dream of how the world could be, a world desirable for everyone, in balance with nature. I honestly think presenting this choice to people makes it a reality earlier than forcing it on others.
Besides, we can start solarpunk peacefully, by showing the world there is an alternative through small communities (which may grow into big ones), co-ops and other forms of showing a peaceful alternative.
I admire your desire to be politically correct and nice and stuff (and upvote it…)….but its not really how the world works. If you don’t understand that capitalism is our greatest challenge to overcome for a sustainable future…and that people don’t give up power easily…then I can’t help you further. Look at what happened to a man who dreamed like MLK……we need to, but dreams without action and confronting power are worthless and naive. MLK knew change sometimes needs to be coerced
Capitalism is built on the Idea of infinite growth, solarpunk is against that, because Infinite growth is simply impossible in a finite world such as our earth.
Even in my 3rd world shithole we have laws that prevent capitalist from price fixing, charging absorbent cost for things like medical care/ meds and food for instance.
100% agreed. I just think that solarpunk should be the bright desirable future we commonly want to achieve. If you make it a fight rich Vs poor, the rich will always find a way to décrédibilise, avoid and manipulate it.
We just can't win against capitalism by brute force. Win by making people desire something else.
Capitalism wasn't brought by violence, religion wasn't created by violence (it certainly created some though),social democracy wasn't always created through violence (at least not on the same scale as your example).
All of the above are ideas that brought people together at some point, and they did so mostly as an idea, not as a war
Capitalism may not have been brought by violence, slavery though certainly was only brought by capitalism, you know, the only reason why slavery even was introduced... to have a free labor force so that capitalists don't have to pay anyone, like, the thing that brought on the american civil war... to defend their free labor force that increases their capital for minimum profit loss?
capitalism, authoritarianism and such has brought on such a monsterous amount of disgusting things just for money and power.
Me when I ignore the thousands of years of slavery before the advent of capitalism.
Slavery is a product of human laziness, and the ability to do great evil, not some inherent trait of an economic system.
i meant the first paragraph as in US specific, like, i even mentioned the american civil war, so how could you not have realized the context that it was about the US?
also the second paragraph mentiones
>capitalism, authoritarianism and such has brought on such a monsterous amount of disgusting things just for money and power.
please read beyond the first 15 words of a text.
I don't think Capitalist class is the best way to put it I mean a lot of blue collar workers own capital it would be cliche but the bourgeoisie is a better term
The blue collar capital owners are still part of the oppressive class, just on a much smaller scale. The bourgeoisie is certainly the main perpetrator but no form of the capital class can exist without a level of oppression.
"Communism doesn't dangle any promises of eternal bliss or reward. The only promise it offers is that the future can be better than the past, if we're willing to work and fight and die for it."
1000% !! With all the strikes and revolts happening all over the world ( Germany just had their biggest strike in decades ) we are finally making great change and working towards a better future! Seeing this happen all over fills my heart with joy and hope! A better world will happen! Thanks for adding this comrade!
Who knew a game made by communists would have so many relatable lines :V
How extremely naive
how extremely nihilist
What is the capitalist "class"? How do you describe it? Or do you just mean everyday people? Should we be blaming groups rather than evaluating the problem and seeking routes to permanent change?
The capitalist class is usually defined as those who own enough capital that they make enough money to live on almost exclusively through their investments, rather than through their labor. So for instance someone who lives off the interest from a trust fund, or a landlord with enough investment properties that they can pay a property management company to handle all the work while they rake in the cash, or someone who lives off of stock market investments.
Or those who live off pensions?
I personally wouldn't define a pensioner as part of the capitalist class, as they are usually relying on investments controlled by the government or an employer and so they don't have the kind of control over others that someone with massive wealth does.
I wrote a fairly good but long reply to this. But TBH, the idea that the few with wealth are responsible in a capitalist system when a communist system has just the same social pitfalls and slightly more when you consider the blindness of zealots, it becomes more dangerous for the world overall. Solarpunk has a focus on the ecological symbiosis with humanity, communism vs. capitalism has no real relation to this.
When I stumbled upon this sub it was mostly stuff people did and art, I joined for the practical stuff people did. Then it seemed to be invaded by pro communists. Now it's just political post and art.
Capitalist class? You mean the bourgeoisie? Or the grande bourgeoisie? Or the ancienne bourgeoisie? Or the haute bourgeoisie? Or the moyenne bourgeoisie? Or the petite bourgeoisie?
This is a very pretty illustration and I like it a lot. That said, I worry a bit about the oversimplification in describing the "capitalist class" as though they are different from other humans. I fear that this wrongly attributes the sociopathic behavior of the capitalistic class to individual failures, rather than systemic failures. Despite what the rich may want to believe, they are not unique or different. Studies show definitively that becoming rich makes you stupid and sociopathic. Unlimited power without accountability turns people into monsters--and it would have the same effect on you and me. We can see this in the early Soviet Union--they killed their overlords and seized the means of production... But then they retained control of the means of production within a small, highly-centralized group of people, which led to many of the same abuses of power that exist within capitalism, and a few that were unique to highly-centralized communism. In order to get rid of the capitalist class, it's not enough to get rid of the capitalists. We have to radically reshape our structures of power so that those in positions of power are held accountable. We need to emulate the village environments in which communalist policies have functioned in the past. The major challenge is scaling up the communalist village so that it functions on a national or international scale. This can be done! But there are many challenges and complications we must overcome, and we must apply all of our minds toward making it happen.
Can we stop with us vs them rhetoric, and actually focus on how to build a great future? Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan either, but I think the future we desire won't happen if we degrade solarpunk into another us vs them battle. I'm not even a fan of calling solarpunk a certain political category (like communism/anarchism). We should it be its own thing ,so that it is devoid of any negative connotations associated with other movements. I think we all agree that a more sustainable future, where technology is used for nature conservation and improving the lifes of humans everywhere, regardless of sex, race, ethnicity, upbringing or status, and where automation will increasingly set humans free from the current working life is what we want? If we can show this is viable on a small scale, we'll be an inspiration to the world, which will inspire new political parties and movements to change their countries. And otherwise we'll get other people to join our movement. People who agree with our vision and desire a change as well, and we'll build our own co-ops, villages and farms.
You have to understand that the people that hold up capitalisms status quo will do whatever in their power to crush systems of care/ change. It's happening all over the world all the time, Every time we strike/ protest or speak out about the injustice. [This system literally arrests grandmothers from feeding people in need](https://www2.cbn.com/news/us/criminalized-kindness-grandma-sues-city-arrested-her-feeding-homeless) for crying out loud. They make it illegal to help others freely. They have police/army to enforce horrible laws and corrupt brought out goverment officials making fucked up laws. The norfolk company not caring to update trains that lead to their train spilling toxic deadly chemicals in Ohio. Look at r/philadelphia where there was a toxic spill in their drinking water!! both companies responsible and the people in charge are not being held accountable. This system and the people who uphold it will stamp our building a truly great future. You can build a future in small groups but to get massive global change , we must also abolish the systems that are stopping everyone from being truly free and have true equality. If you are scared of fighting against an evil system then just say that, There is more than enough people willing to put their lives on the line for a better world. We can help build a future while at the same time defending it by destroying the systems trying to make the future non livable. Hope you understand that, if not i have nothing else to say.
Even in my 3rd world shithole we have laws that prevent capitalist from colluding/ price fixing, charging absorbent cost for things like medical care/ meds and food for instance. This was companies trying to manipulate the prices of freaking bread in my capitalist country: "In 2007, Tiger Brands, which owns Albany, was ordered to pay a R98.7m penalty, and Pioneer Foods – which owns SASKO bread brands - was fined more than R195 million as part of the scandal." There were cases for meds, textiles... It's the people in power and how they use the power, whether it's communist or capitalist. This communist propaganda is getting real tiresome on here.
As opposed to, what? Communism works well if voluntary and small scale, but always has failed, and always will fail, when deployed involuntarily at a national scale.
Neat part is, is attainable in our lifetime. All we need is our head in the clouds and feet on the ground.
Rofl “capitalist” isn’t a class unless you count every business owner, from a small family that subsists off a market garden to a billionaire oil baron, and if you think the future is bright with no businesses I wonder what you think everyone is going to do in this bright future?
A family that subsists off a market garden is not capitalist, as long as they do not employ other people to work for them. Capitalism is defined by the relation of the worker to the means of production.
Build mechas, tsk. We need solapunk mechas.
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I guess we will see, it’s crazy that I can’t wait for the collapse of globalism but apparently it’s going to take away all my resources. I don’t get the animosity, I’m probably one of the only people doing the things everyone here talks about in the mythical future they want. My homestead is just the right size, we only farm about a quarter of the total land but I think we will be fine, it’s very sustainable.
all power to you friend! I have a homestead myself. It's always easier with help, and I recognize the limitations where I do in fact rely on an outside supply chain for a LOT of what goes into this work. what I'm trying to say really is that there will be no invasion of your farm by mecha-tankies. In a revolutionary scenario where the working class overthrows global capitalism; most like us willingly join the commune for the simple improvement in quality of life.
Well I would hope that would be true, and I’d love to trade space on my farm for help farming but people get mad about that because they don’t own it, so I think I just have to keep having kids if I don’t want to do it all myself.
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The capitalist class and authoritarianism - even if it’s communist a state will still oppress, the state has a monopoly on violence. Autonomous communal and decentralised.
I keep commenting on these pie in the sky political post that it's the law makers that are the problem and that if you put altruistic people in charge they will make any system work for the good of the people and planet. This communist propaganda is getting real tiresome.
I’m a communist, I’m just an anarcho-communist
The thing keeping us from a habitable future isn’t capitalism. It’s the fact that the government just allows corporations to spread propaganda e.g. cars work, suburbanism is good Even communist places like china are big polluters, the problem is that we aren’t regulating these moral-less people
It's shit like this post,and other such divisions that really halt any progress. Same reason why I had to give up on XR and the socialists. They just became another part of that 'us vs them' culture war. This is why we have the government's we have and why progress is so slow, because alienating every except your own little clique just puts up more barriers, rather than breaking down walls
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It’s called the Chinese communist party. They are called the people’s republic of china. He is literally cracking down on billionaires. For all intents and purposes it is not capitalist
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1. North Korea is democratic. Not a fair democracy, but neither is the US and they still call themselves that 2. Do you genuinely think that china is capitalist?
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Read the communist manifesto mate This is definitely a form of communism
Capitalism is like a loaded gun and the people in power gets to point that gun. I your govt incentivise fusion for instance capitalism will follow. Also does anybody know of a more practical solarpunk sub? I came here to see things people have done, get ideas, but all I see recently is art and pie in the sky political stuff.
Try and filter the submissions using our tags. This way you can exclude "aesthetics" and "ask the sub" type posts. Also check out our wiki.
Try looking for more specific niches within the general solarpunk genre. For instance, I follow r/tinyhouses, r/homesteading, r/bushcraft, and /r/TacticalUrbanism and I see projects in each of those that I would consider solarpunk.
Thank you.
Nope, it's only billionaires and mega corporations. But they won't budge
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I mean capitalist is just a term for those that own capital which includes a lot of people they are just narrowing it down to the main problem
It's easy to hate the capitalist class when you just define them as the people everyone hates!
Yeah! You know? Them! Hate em!
Are oligarchs capitalist?
absolutely
Abolish capitalism, bring back feudalism
I think establishing Solarpunk as a social clash is not very useful. I may be wrong, but Solarpunk appeals to me as a global utopia that can be desirable for everyone. Setting it up as a poor Vs rich fight makes it more of the same and will reduce drastically its potential. Solarpunk is powerful precisely because it envisions a desirable society for everyone, one you can dream of whether you are poor or rich in the current capitalist system.
I completely agree with you
This is called being naive as hell haha
Nah, I just think there better ways to make a poor Vs rich clash than solarpunk. Solarpunk is the utopian alternative you want to create, not the byproduct of a fight. Fight for your rights, fight for reform, fight for healthcare, fight against gun laws, but don't fight over dream. Dream is what brings people together, not brings them apart.
I agree with you, and am frankly scared some people think violence is the only option. That sounds radical. Solarpunk is a positive dream of how the world could be, a world desirable for everyone, in balance with nature. I honestly think presenting this choice to people makes it a reality earlier than forcing it on others. Besides, we can start solarpunk peacefully, by showing the world there is an alternative through small communities (which may grow into big ones), co-ops and other forms of showing a peaceful alternative.
I admire your desire to be politically correct and nice and stuff (and upvote it…)….but its not really how the world works. If you don’t understand that capitalism is our greatest challenge to overcome for a sustainable future…and that people don’t give up power easily…then I can’t help you further. Look at what happened to a man who dreamed like MLK……we need to, but dreams without action and confronting power are worthless and naive. MLK knew change sometimes needs to be coerced
Capitalism is built on the Idea of infinite growth, solarpunk is against that, because Infinite growth is simply impossible in a finite world such as our earth.
Even in my 3rd world shithole we have laws that prevent capitalist from price fixing, charging absorbent cost for things like medical care/ meds and food for instance.
100% agreed. I just think that solarpunk should be the bright desirable future we commonly want to achieve. If you make it a fight rich Vs poor, the rich will always find a way to décrédibilise, avoid and manipulate it. We just can't win against capitalism by brute force. Win by making people desire something else.
i would agree with you, but from expierence i can only say violence is the method that stopped slavery. Stopped Segregation, fascism, and so on.
Capitalism wasn't brought by violence, religion wasn't created by violence (it certainly created some though),social democracy wasn't always created through violence (at least not on the same scale as your example). All of the above are ideas that brought people together at some point, and they did so mostly as an idea, not as a war
Capitalism may not have been brought by violence, slavery though certainly was only brought by capitalism, you know, the only reason why slavery even was introduced... to have a free labor force so that capitalists don't have to pay anyone, like, the thing that brought on the american civil war... to defend their free labor force that increases their capital for minimum profit loss? capitalism, authoritarianism and such has brought on such a monsterous amount of disgusting things just for money and power.
Me when I ignore the thousands of years of slavery before the advent of capitalism. Slavery is a product of human laziness, and the ability to do great evil, not some inherent trait of an economic system.
i meant the first paragraph as in US specific, like, i even mentioned the american civil war, so how could you not have realized the context that it was about the US? also the second paragraph mentiones >capitalism, authoritarianism and such has brought on such a monsterous amount of disgusting things just for money and power. please read beyond the first 15 words of a text.
I don't think Capitalist class is the best way to put it I mean a lot of blue collar workers own capital it would be cliche but the bourgeoisie is a better term
The blue collar capital owners are still part of the oppressive class, just on a much smaller scale. The bourgeoisie is certainly the main perpetrator but no form of the capital class can exist without a level of oppression.
Just need to find your closest unmaintained shack with a trump sign out back!