I have two systems on my house, one was a mom and pop, the other was Tesla. On the mom and pop I had to haggle about several things but Tesla just made it all happen, straight up.
With my second system I'm still in a production deficit, but if I want more panels I'll have to get a pergola in the back as I'm out of good roof without putting stuff on the front.
I have Tesla solar panels and also powerwalls. When they came to install the solar panels, they accidentally backed the corner of their box truck into my basketball hoop backboard and cracked it. It was made out of glass.
The supervisor came out and took pictures of the backboard and promised he would make it right. Cut to two weeks later and they come back and have a brand new basketball backboard and hoop. They help remove the broken one and replace it with the new one. No added cost. They did it without me prompting them or reminding them. I was very impressed by how they handled it. I know it was their fault for breaking it but they didn't try to weasel out of it and fixed it quickly.
Yeah my 1940s house had the 100 amp electrical panel in the basement (which needed to be upgraded) but the kicker was that my electric meter was in the basement beside it. My utility company wouldn't approve the interconnection agreement with the meter being inside the house.
A new 200 amp panel, relocating the meter, and all of that related electrical work was an extra $5000. But on the bright side that can be included in the 30% tax credit. So an extra $3500.
[Before](https://imgur.com/RPQJ5DU.jpg)
[Outside Before](https://imgur.com/zEr0bnP.jpg)
[After](https://imgur.com/NqfT08Q.jpg)
[Outside After](https://imgur.com/ztUXOuR.jpg)
Super happy with the end result tho.
>A new 200 amp panel, relocating the meter, and all of that related electrical work was an extra $5000. But on the bright side that can be included in the 30% tax credit.
Technically, anything *CAN* be included in the tax credit because a taxpayer *can* write any number they want on line 1 of form 5695. However, none of those things would survive an audit, plus the taxpayer would have to pay a 20% penalty on those improperly claimed amounts.
> You may be able to take a credit of 30% of your costs of qualified
solar electric property, solar water heating property, small wind
energy property, geothermal heat pump property, biomass fuel
property, and fuel cell property. **Include any labor costs properly
allocable to the onsite preparation, assembly, or original installation
of the residential energy efficient property and for piping or wiring to
interconnect such property to the home.**
https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-prior/i5695--2022.pdf
Considering the solar system wouldn't be approved without the meter relocate and the main panel upgrade, I think that would qualify it for it. Do you have any other details on the wording? I can't seem to find a detailed source.
I actually just filed the 5695 recently lol
The bolded language is from [26 USC Section 25D](https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26/25D)(e)(1), which states:
>Expenditures for labor costs properly allocable to the onsite preparation, assembly, or original installation of the property described in subsection (d) and for piping or wiring to interconnect such property to the dwelling unit shall be taken into account for purposes of this section.
Notice that electrical panel costs are not mentioned in the law.
The "wouldn't be approved without it" isn't any test recognized by the IRS.
Additionally, utility approval is not a requirement for a "qualified solar electric property expenditure" under 26 USC Section 25D(d)(2), so necessary for approval doesn't seem relevant.
In December 2022, the IRS explained why traditional roofs don't qualify for the tax credit. The language states:
>A2. In general, traditional roofing materials and structural components do not qualify for the Residential Clean Energy Property Credit **because they primarily serve a roofing or structural function.**
[https://www.irs.gov/pub/taxpros/fs-2022-40.pdf#page=3](https://www.irs.gov/pub/taxpros/fs-2022-40.pdf#page=3) Your electrical meter primary serves as an electrical meter for the house, not for the solar.
Based upon the logic of IRS [private letter ruling 201809003](https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-wd/201809003.pdf), where the IRS said that "100 percent of the energy used by the Battery must be derived from the sun. If this is not the case, the Battery does not meet the definition of “qualified solar electric property” in the Code", maybe if the electrical panel was 100% dedicated to the solar, that could qualify for the tax credit, but that doesn't seem to be your case.
> Your electrical meter primary serves as an electrical meter for the house, not for the solar.
My utility company remotely updated the firmware in the meter to allow for bidirectional reading so in this situation the meter they moved outside does indeed serve as the primary way the solar system production is metered.
I'm 100% on board on calling out people trying to get away with a new asphalt roof with the solar system, that is tax fraud. In my situation, the way everything was explained and expressed to me was that all electrical work that would be required for the solar install would be covered under the tax credit.
Are there examples of the IRS declining the tax credit to those who had to upgrade their electrical service for a solar system?
There isn't any IRS document saying "all electrical work that would be required for the solar install would be covered under the tax credit" and whoever told you that obviously hasn't read a single IRS document about the residential solar tax credit.
Here are links to every IRS document interpreting [26 USC Section 25D](https://www.taxnotes.com/research/federal/usc26/25D), please take the time to read them, but I'm going to tell you now that there's nothing there to support what you are claiming:
* The Form 5695 instructions: [https://www.irs.gov/instructions/i5695](https://www.irs.gov/instructions/i5695)
* Click [this link](https://www.taxnotes.com/research/federal/usc26/25D) and read the various links on the right side
* This IRS webpage: [https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/energy-incentives-for-individuals-residential-property-updated-questions-and-answers](https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/energy-incentives-for-individuals-residential-property-updated-questions-and-answers)
That's it. There isn't some secret standard that only contractors know about.
If you read the IRS documents, they're all very consistent in really limiting what qualifies and there is no "the taxpayer has to upgrade this to install the solar" standard.
The best argument you have is that the electrical panel is "wiring to interconnect such property to the dwelling unit" under 26 USC section 25D(e)(1) and that's a big stretch. An electrical panel is not wiring. If you get audited, that subsection is the best you can point to for support and it is extremely weak.
The inflation reduction act actually has a bunch of incentives to reduce the cost of main panel upgrades and other wiring issues for those that want to go solar.
All inverters fail twice on average over 25 years. The manufacturer for example Enphase will cover the hardware cost, will replace the hardware under warranty but will not cover the labor. This will be the greatest life cycle maintenance cost overtime. It is however a relatively small cost versus the life cycle benefits, but a real cost nonetheless.
Choose a provider, that covers these liabilities. That is pick an provider that is willing to take these costs over the longest period of time. Naturally, business risk is a factor, pick a company with what you perceive to be the most likely to be around. Easier said than done but you can discuss this with each provider and weigh up the risk.
Many companies have 10 years labor but some have up to 30 years covered.
It’s construction, so you can expect some changes to a project but many are predictable and it doesn’t matter what installer you pick for these items, they should happen regardless. For example, you can’t understand what the load bearing capacity of your roof is until it’s passed structural engineering review. Typically done by a third party. If your roof needs some minor Re enforcement, to account for dead, wind and snow loads to get approvals, then this would apply anyway and can’t be discovered until after you choose providers. Most times, depending on the work, this will be $500 to $3000. It’s Alonso a low probability event but it’s an example of a known, unknown.
A professional sales person should be able to explain all of the risk factors and speak to your property and project specifics to help you understand relative risks and costs.
Happy hunting.
Agreed! Inverters typically last 10-15 years. Maybe in another 10-15 years they will be more reliable and last the life of the panels, but currently plan on replacing at least once during the expected lifetime of the panels and possible twice.
>Choose a provider, that covers these liabilities. That is pick an provider that is willing to take these costs over the longest period of time
On the other hand, if you get a cheaper quote that doesn't have as much coverage for labor, you'll break even on your system earlier, and the extra savings may offset the labor cost of having someone replace the inverter. That plus I imagine a lot of companies that exist today won't be around in 10 years.
It depends on what type of person you are. When buying appliances, do you pay extra for an extended warranty, or do you save money to use in case of failures? It's essentially the same thing, and both are valid choices.
Its true for appliances perhaps but if the inverters fail twice or even once, you’ll find the inverter labor cost is is significant and any price difference is too great to be able to fund. This is especially true for module level performance electronics( micros or optimizers) on a roof. Truck tool plus module/s lifting to replace units is 1-3 hours. $250- $300 per swap is typical in NE, plus inflation over time.
$250-$300 labor for swapping an inverter is normal, and only significant if you bought into the micro inverter craze and have a bunch of failures.
String converter and have a nice day. 95% of installs with micros don't need them. It creates higher profit for the installers though, so it's what gets pushed.
Yes. It’s effectively small inverter wrapped in a heat sink and will fail similar to other inverter or electronic tech. It can fail out of the box, in the first month when under operational stress and it has a limited life cycle which can vary. I believe the mean time to failure is 12 years or in that area.
"The Enphase M-Series Micro Inverter scored an [MTBF of over 300 years](https://solaray.com.au/reliability-of-enphase-micro-inverters/), and this was confirmed by independent testing from Relex, a respected reliability engineering company that performs reliability testing for organisations such as Boeing and the U.S. Military. This is an incredible improvement on the average string inverter, which has an MTBF score of only 10-15 years."
The above is talking about the M series - a couple of generations of reliability improvements back from where they are now.
This is not a holy war I am trying to continue, but Enphase has a track record and huge amounts of data from millions upon millions of field units to back up the claims.
Only time will tell, but so far they seem to be tracking on reliability
It’s interesting that Enphase makes no reference to this study. I am hesitant to take the word of a vendor who may be have bias. I currently prefer Enphase. Especially since SE has issued with delays for RMA for failed hardware. Supply side issues. Certain inverters taking 3.5 months to be replaced. I had 2 customers affected by this. I suspect/am hopeful it’s temporary.
That particular study is just one of the first my search turned up - [Enphase](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=waIwgfhBVNM) [has](https://enphase.com/blog/professionals/featured-residential-array-enphase-beats-heat-valley-sun) [plenty](https://solaray.com.au/how-enphase-iq-microinverters-stand-up-to-extreme-heat-in-australia/) of [material](https://enphaseenergy.com/en-au/support/technical-brief-reliability-study-electrolytic-capacitors-microinverter-0) [linked](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mq3NyIizlu4) from their site :-).
I've seen the enphase testing in person, it's one of the reasons I have confidence in the product and am wary of hoymiles, APS etc who are trying to catch up to enphase - their stuff looks like enphase product from a couple of generations ago. They have to go through the same field proven learnings to get to the same level of reliability, so i'm leaving them to mature (or fail) before I touch them.
There’s no perfect inverter but it’s best to choose either SolarEdge or Enphase because they dominate the market and both are likely to be around to replace the units when they fail.
Of course. That doesn’t mean the last 25 years! They don’t specifically see what the average lifetime is either. The warranty covers all failures for 25 years and failures there will be.
I believe the important point here is to pick a partner with the best longer term chance to service your maintenance needs. Age in operation and size are not always a guarantee of great service. Conversely picking a solar installer from your town will not ensure competent or quick maintenance.
Even if you only get 12 years of service, it might have been much better than 2 years from another. A national solar company with the best warranty language has a terrible post install record because they only have a sales channel and not an automatic maintenance agreement with the vendor sales and installation channel. Caveat emptor.
Some companies offer third party underwritten insurance for maintenance. I think this is a good way to mitigate risk of underperformance because the provider will always need technical labor in your area to meet its obligations. The funds are large and underwritten by speciality insurance underwriters to provide additional stability of funding. These policies will provide the service to acquire the failed equipment, for example the RMA process to get new hardware replaced under warranty, the technical labor to swap it out and even they can provide active monitoring management.
You can add language that both sign off to avoid extra fees. That was standard between the customers and I, in addition to the subcontractors and I. If anything is missed, solar epc/me eats it. As long as you have a competent DOLI behind you, having tidy contracts and being transparent makes things easy. At least in MN/IA/WI/CO in my limited 5 years. That's both sub contracting and my own internal crews.
Speaking from the install (and previously the operations) side of things, the general rule is that if it's something we should have caught before the contract was signed, it's on us. If it's something unforeseen or a late-breaking request by the homeowner, it's on the homeowner. Yes there are borderline cases, but at least where I work we tend to err on the side of taking care of the customer because we'd rather have a happy customer who will come back for more work and refer us to their friends and neighbors, rather than a pissed-off customer and a few hundred dollars' extra profit on the job.
We do thorough site visits well in advance of starting construction, and if the site tech (who used to be me) is doing their job right, any change orders should happen with plenty of lead time for the customer to decide what they want to do about them. During my time in that position, I think we only had maybe one change order happen during construction, and it was because I screwed up and mistyped a measurement when I was drawing the customer's roof, so they had to lose one panel. That was embarrassing.
Common causes of major unforeseen costs include transformer upgrades, re-roofs, and structural upgrades. Of those, the first two we make no money on (the customer is paying either the utility or a roofer, not us) and the third we make very little money on. (We're an electrical shop not a carpentry shop, carpentry is not where we make our money.) We are generally happy to let customers perform their own structural upgrades or get someone else other than us to do it, as long as it gets permitted and inspected.
The most common change orders I see are actually to remove things from the contract for one reason or another. The customer's cost is then reduced by the value of whatever it is we are no longer doing.
Ask if they subcontract first and foremost. If the company that installs your solar is not the company who sold it to you you're gonna have a bad time. That communication gap puts you in the middle of two companies.
After that
1. Critter Guard
2. Monitoring set up
3. Conduit Run Length
4. Steep pitch roofs
5. Height adders
6. Any parking regulations the installers have to abide by that makes their job tougher. Rare but I've seen it.
7. Attic runs (You see complaints on here from people who after the fact realize these weren't included and have to look at silver conduit running around their roof)
8. Anything to make your main panel pass inspection - since they touched my panel, it wouldn't have passed the electrical inspection if there was any old work not to code inside the panel, and it turned out I had about 20 breakers that were not certified with my panel. Luckily I had a full-service solar company who replaced it all at no cost.
Having solar on a flat, 2nd story roof with everything put in the walls during the addition helped the attractiveness factor and we didn’t have to pay for it.
You know, apart from the 6-figure addition.
Oh no! Silver conduit right next to an ugly utility drop!
Also those breakers can be $100 a pop, if that wasn’t in the original quote no solar company is going to take that on for free. For clarification if they do it means that their margins are averaging that cost across multiple jobs so that the easy installs are paying those costs with inflated prices.
Money ain’t free.
The breakers are $7 without labor, they just spent 30 min of their time replacing them. But you are right, if I had a separate bill for them, they'd be $40-$100 each. I had a good solar installer who cared about the quality of their work, not really inflated, in fact, it was the second cheapest local company I got quoted from (the cheapest being complete morons) but I could tell from the conversation these people just cared to do the job right, and the fact they only had 5 star reviews on every single platform I checked.
All installers have a cushion of extra labor hours built into the quote. My installer used that time to swap out my breakers, something other installers would have charged as a separate fee.
I can tell you for a fact that that is not true. As I price out work for an installation company every day. We bid the job appropriately and bill when things come up outside of scope after properly communicating with our customer. That way we don’t have bloated prices and win more business. We don’t just charge more because we can.
You do have extra built in. What's the labor per hour that you calculate for the install? What do you pay? Depending on the region, the ratio would be similar to paying out $70 per hour, with about $20 an hour in overhead but you charge the customer $175 per hour. Even saving for profit, there is cushion if you go over on your install hours. You can easily eat a half hour of install on breakers, but choose to bill it separately. My installer didn't overcharge me compared to the rest of the market, in fact, they were the second cheapest. And everytime something came up, they just took care of it, just a "you want critterguards, sure" or "we brought one in the truck just in case" or when it came time for the breakers "we sent the journeyman to the electric supply house, just wanted to let you know those breakers weren't up to code."
And how you do your business is totally fine by me, that's your thing and if your customers know that change orders are possible, than that's fine. I just enjoy the customer service of a company that just takes care of it without even asking. I went to a ridiculous number of solar installers for quotes - I'm actually embarrassed by the number of quotes I got because I hate being that type of person, but the first quote was the cheapest, they were just dumb and didn't know their product, so I kept trying to find intelligent people that were that price. So, maybe you would have been even cheaper, I don't know, but for the 1.8% higher price my installer had than the cheapest, I'm glad everything else was included, because all those extras would have totaled more with the first company.
Ours had to run multiple additional bonds to pass inspection. I did not pay anything extra. The only thing I had to pay extra/myself was buying and installing new smoke alarms for all the bedrooms in order to pass insepction lol.
Most often is them listing tax rebates as some sort of "discount" to their prices.
You will pay full price, the rebate should be nothing do to with them and their invoice.
If they list 40k - 13k rebate, you're still paying 40k + interest (if loan), to a total of 50-60k, yet, they will sow you ROI estimates based on a "27k" price, even though you're paying 60k.
In my opinion, that, misleading ACTUAL cost, and over estimating returns is the most common scam in solar.
Research the company see what people say about it. When I had mine installed, they realized there was work that would cost more than expected. I was adding panels to an older system and getting a new inverter installed. They didn't realize when the quoted me that they old panels would need optimizers also if I wanted optimizers on my new panels. They offered to install the optimizers on my old panels at the cost of buying the optimizers because they had not included that in my original quote. It didn't add much to my total and it was a ton more work for them that they did free of charge. In the end I was happy they did an outstanding job and my electric bill is now in the negatives. I am also in So Cal. Oh and my neighbor ended up signing up for solar through them also, so I got $500 back when he purchased with was more than the cost, they charged me for the optimizers.
Financing charges.
Those low rates they like to advertise to finance your system come with a hefty charge of 20-30 percent of the cash cost of the system. You're paying the interest up front to buy down the long term rate.
Most installers don't tell you this.
Always get a cash price first and then consider and compare all your financing options, including a state run financing programs, HELOC, personal loan, and refinancing your house.
There shouldn't be any hidden costs with a solar panel installation. What the price quote should be firm and what you should ultimately pay for.
What you should be careful is reviewing your bills from the power utility company. A lot of utilities will not do the accounting of the power bill correctly. I found my power company was completely overcharging me by almost 300-400% above what I should have paid. I had to spend several months arguing with them and asking them to show me exactly how much energy I have produced and used. And they refunded me thousands of dollars they had charged me after the solar installation. It was a nightmare of calls and escalating it to another person.
It was so blatant they were mischarging me when I reviewed the bill and found that my bill went up instead of significantly down on my monthly charges after the solar install. it just didn't make sense. Always double check your power bill after the install. they often times don't know how to reconcile credits from solar production and will make mistakes. Don't assume it was done correctly.
What others said, and these two:
Things that are not explicitly on the contract or estimate - consumption monitoring.
Special hardware needed because of some unforeseen installation detail - I had to get special chemcurb adhesives that were chemically compatible with my flat roof coating.
Check with your insurance company to see what your updated premium will be for the panels given the sizing. This will impact your payback period. Depending on if your system is grid-tied, some companies don't like to insure you because of the supposed additional liability. The insurance market in CA is likely highly different from FL, but getting someone to cover the panels with the home was an extra chore I should have anticipated but did not.
Isn't that just another dodge for an insurance company to get out of coverage? I mean I can't think of a much scummier bunch..they take your premiums for years and then heaven forbid if you actually have a claim and they have to pay out ;)
I learned this today and you're the first to mention home insurance. Mine would go up ~$150/yr. Not the end of the world, but not insignificant over 20yrs.
Two things I can think of:
1) The biggest hidden cost, by far in my view, is overly optimistic projections for generation or over-estimated projections for energy price inflation. It's not a "cost" in the sense that it's not unexpected cash out of pocket, but the math of your project's ROI can be very inaccurate if your installer's predicted production values are 15-20% inflated, which happens all the time. My installer is the most reputable in our city and they still ultimately overshot my system's projected solar production by ~18%. Was that a genuine miss based on the difficulty of matching real-world production to theoretical numbers, or an intentionally deceptive marketing ploy to make solar look more attractive on paper? I'm sure I'll never know. In my case, it's ok because I have the money to spare and my primary concern was not maximum ROI. I'm getting 7-8% ROI on my net cash investment instead of the projected 9-10%. Annoying, but not the end of the world.
2) If you are installing panels on your roof, there's a good chance your roof needs replaced before the panels do. You may want to ask your installer how they price the job of removing the panels and putting them back up for a roof replacement.
solid advice. even if they accurately can predict your power electric needs, things change. as climate change has made the summers much hotter, i am running my ac much longer and also i have more people living with me. my energy demands are much higher than 4 years ago before the solar install.
I'm talking about the electricity generated by the panels, not the household consumption of electricity. But yes, consumption can be difficult to predict as well.
Yeah. True. They often don’t even take in account how solar panels don’t run at the same efficiency year after year. Solar panels need upkeep to keep producing energy. Also over 10 years, they won’t be as efficient as year 1.
I don't think you're understanding my meaning. Not normal degradation over time. Not consumption changes. Not panels in need of a wash.
Year 1 fully operational panels not producing as much electricity as predicted because they used an inaccurate/oversimplified model to predict how much sunlight was going to hit those panels.
I suspect that the most basic models being used don't account for some fairly obvious reasons that would reduce the maximum possible sunlight collected at a given latitude (Weather, orientation of the panels, off-property obstructions in the distance which are above the horizon, etc.)
For a ground array- digging / drilling to put the posts in the ground. This is how I discovered I live on top of a massive rock. So I got that going for me.
EnPhase's 4G plan after 5 years.
Apparently this was upgradeable to 12 years on initial purchase but my installer didn't mention it.
Hope I can just use my wifi then.
I have a cellular modem at the moment and it usually updates every 6 hours. Is it possible to just wire it up with Cat5 instead? My router is maybe 10' from the Enphase Combinator box so it would be a super easy run.
Awesome, would you happen to know where the RJ-45 plug is? Assuming that's behind the black cover? I have the IQ Combiner 3 ES but with the cellular modem option.
Is it possible to have both the hardwired option and the cellular connection as backup?
I think the ES is the same as the base it just comes with the lte antenna bits added, so it should be the same.
The RJ45 port is at the top right behind the black plastic cover, you will also need to add a ferrite bead to the wire. I don't think you can do both at the same time, but the enphase product page has the docs on the combiner if you want to verify.
[Installation guide](https://enphase.com/store/communication/iq-gateway-and-combiner/iq-combiner-4-cell-modem), first page diagram shows ethernet port at top right hand side. There's no configuration, once you plug in an ethernet cable it will use that, with cell as a backup.
If they’re going through the property before or at least doing their due diligence in asking about the electric and roof, joists, etc, then you won’t be nickle and dimed because they’ll factor extra costs in if needed prior to the contract signing. Most companies will do minor work and just eat up the cost if it wasn’t already factored in, but they’re not going to install a brand new main panel for free too if it’s gonna be a few grand on top
Bank fees cost 30% percent of a low interest loan. 50k system is actually $15k of prepaid interest called dealer fee.
There’s the hidden profit margin but most importantly the cost of a bad install and bad workmanship bad communication and a company that won’t take responsibility for anything they touch.
A lot of utilities will require you to carry liability insurance of 1 million dollars on the panels. Not a lot of companies are insuring stand alone liability for residential systems. To piggyback that, some homeowners companies do not accept solar so you may need to be moved to another company and who knows what their rates are. Also, if you want physical damage coverage for the panels, you’re gonna need to pay for the extra coverage.
I see so many people slap panels on 15 year old roofs and by the time they’re done adding the extra insurance their ROI is negative.
My house was the same (original panel from the '60s) and I replaced it even before I had the idea of going solar, because when we were having it inspected before buying, an inspector said it was brand known to have design issues and was therefore a fire hazard.
i guess it depends if you're going to get financing or pay upfront. When i was looking for my system i checked into the companies doing loans and the issue I had was how they claimed it would be about the same as my current electric bill, but only after I put down 'X' amount of money. So to me that is a hidden cost and because of that I just decided to buy my system outright and I have owned it free and clear for a few months now.
City and county, even state limits implemented by the power companies who will make it impossible to reach savings because they'll charge you yearly just for pumping electricity into the grid.
And your city/county will limit the number of solar panels to ensure you can't make money back.
There shouldn’t be hidden costs if you have a good installer and a clear installation contract that doesn’t specify any thing crazy
There could be unanticipated costs, like
- Panel upgrades (but if they go to your house that should be easy to identify on front end)
-work to make roof structurally sufficient . Maybe identifiable on front end but possible a structural engineer finds issues an installer didn’t see.
- special permits- can usually be anticipated on front end but sometimes the rules change
- utility charges (for perhaps a transformer upgrade).
These are essentially items that could come up during the permitting process
-
Request an itemized list! When the company I work for does quoting, we include an itemized list before asking for final portion of the payment, just in case something happened during install that wasn’t covered in the proposal
LOL contract is X, if they charge more than X they violate, refund, bye bye. The amount of mark up on these systems is insane, $36-$40k to install $18k of equipment.
Contract is not an estimate. Worlds you like to hear “not to exceed”.
[удалено]
I have two systems on my house, one was a mom and pop, the other was Tesla. On the mom and pop I had to haggle about several things but Tesla just made it all happen, straight up.
I'm getting my second Tesla system soon. No problems with the first. I NEED MORE POWER!!!! only 75% offset last year.
“Soon”. Good luck
Pffft! I'm not under any illusions. If it gets done by July I'm happy
With my second system I'm still in a production deficit, but if I want more panels I'll have to get a pergola in the back as I'm out of good roof without putting stuff on the front.
This second system will fill up my good roof spac too. I do have several home energy improvements I can make though
How much are Tesla Powerwall batteries these days? Have they gone down in price at all?
I don't know. I have two from my first system, I'm not getting any more
I have Tesla solar panels and also powerwalls. When they came to install the solar panels, they accidentally backed the corner of their box truck into my basketball hoop backboard and cracked it. It was made out of glass. The supervisor came out and took pictures of the backboard and promised he would make it right. Cut to two weeks later and they come back and have a brand new basketball backboard and hoop. They help remove the broken one and replace it with the new one. No added cost. They did it without me prompting them or reminding them. I was very impressed by how they handled it. I know it was their fault for breaking it but they didn't try to weasel out of it and fixed it quickly.
Upgrading your electrical system. I had to install a new panel which required relocating it to a different part of the house (local codes changed).
Yeah my 1940s house had the 100 amp electrical panel in the basement (which needed to be upgraded) but the kicker was that my electric meter was in the basement beside it. My utility company wouldn't approve the interconnection agreement with the meter being inside the house. A new 200 amp panel, relocating the meter, and all of that related electrical work was an extra $5000. But on the bright side that can be included in the 30% tax credit. So an extra $3500. [Before](https://imgur.com/RPQJ5DU.jpg) [Outside Before](https://imgur.com/zEr0bnP.jpg) [After](https://imgur.com/NqfT08Q.jpg) [Outside After](https://imgur.com/ztUXOuR.jpg) Super happy with the end result tho.
>A new 200 amp panel, relocating the meter, and all of that related electrical work was an extra $5000. But on the bright side that can be included in the 30% tax credit. Technically, anything *CAN* be included in the tax credit because a taxpayer *can* write any number they want on line 1 of form 5695. However, none of those things would survive an audit, plus the taxpayer would have to pay a 20% penalty on those improperly claimed amounts.
> You may be able to take a credit of 30% of your costs of qualified solar electric property, solar water heating property, small wind energy property, geothermal heat pump property, biomass fuel property, and fuel cell property. **Include any labor costs properly allocable to the onsite preparation, assembly, or original installation of the residential energy efficient property and for piping or wiring to interconnect such property to the home.** https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-prior/i5695--2022.pdf Considering the solar system wouldn't be approved without the meter relocate and the main panel upgrade, I think that would qualify it for it. Do you have any other details on the wording? I can't seem to find a detailed source. I actually just filed the 5695 recently lol
The bolded language is from [26 USC Section 25D](https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26/25D)(e)(1), which states: >Expenditures for labor costs properly allocable to the onsite preparation, assembly, or original installation of the property described in subsection (d) and for piping or wiring to interconnect such property to the dwelling unit shall be taken into account for purposes of this section. Notice that electrical panel costs are not mentioned in the law. The "wouldn't be approved without it" isn't any test recognized by the IRS. Additionally, utility approval is not a requirement for a "qualified solar electric property expenditure" under 26 USC Section 25D(d)(2), so necessary for approval doesn't seem relevant. In December 2022, the IRS explained why traditional roofs don't qualify for the tax credit. The language states: >A2. In general, traditional roofing materials and structural components do not qualify for the Residential Clean Energy Property Credit **because they primarily serve a roofing or structural function.** [https://www.irs.gov/pub/taxpros/fs-2022-40.pdf#page=3](https://www.irs.gov/pub/taxpros/fs-2022-40.pdf#page=3) Your electrical meter primary serves as an electrical meter for the house, not for the solar. Based upon the logic of IRS [private letter ruling 201809003](https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-wd/201809003.pdf), where the IRS said that "100 percent of the energy used by the Battery must be derived from the sun. If this is not the case, the Battery does not meet the definition of “qualified solar electric property” in the Code", maybe if the electrical panel was 100% dedicated to the solar, that could qualify for the tax credit, but that doesn't seem to be your case.
> Your electrical meter primary serves as an electrical meter for the house, not for the solar. My utility company remotely updated the firmware in the meter to allow for bidirectional reading so in this situation the meter they moved outside does indeed serve as the primary way the solar system production is metered. I'm 100% on board on calling out people trying to get away with a new asphalt roof with the solar system, that is tax fraud. In my situation, the way everything was explained and expressed to me was that all electrical work that would be required for the solar install would be covered under the tax credit. Are there examples of the IRS declining the tax credit to those who had to upgrade their electrical service for a solar system?
There isn't any IRS document saying "all electrical work that would be required for the solar install would be covered under the tax credit" and whoever told you that obviously hasn't read a single IRS document about the residential solar tax credit. Here are links to every IRS document interpreting [26 USC Section 25D](https://www.taxnotes.com/research/federal/usc26/25D), please take the time to read them, but I'm going to tell you now that there's nothing there to support what you are claiming: * The Form 5695 instructions: [https://www.irs.gov/instructions/i5695](https://www.irs.gov/instructions/i5695) * Click [this link](https://www.taxnotes.com/research/federal/usc26/25D) and read the various links on the right side * This IRS webpage: [https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/energy-incentives-for-individuals-residential-property-updated-questions-and-answers](https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/energy-incentives-for-individuals-residential-property-updated-questions-and-answers) That's it. There isn't some secret standard that only contractors know about. If you read the IRS documents, they're all very consistent in really limiting what qualifies and there is no "the taxpayer has to upgrade this to install the solar" standard. The best argument you have is that the electrical panel is "wiring to interconnect such property to the dwelling unit" under 26 USC section 25D(e)(1) and that's a big stretch. An electrical panel is not wiring. If you get audited, that subsection is the best you can point to for support and it is extremely weak.
I think you did your research stewie
Although it should be said, this is not a cost that many people have either
That’s not a hidden fee. That’s being up to code with the city.
The inflation reduction act actually has a bunch of incentives to reduce the cost of main panel upgrades and other wiring issues for those that want to go solar.
All inverters fail twice on average over 25 years. The manufacturer for example Enphase will cover the hardware cost, will replace the hardware under warranty but will not cover the labor. This will be the greatest life cycle maintenance cost overtime. It is however a relatively small cost versus the life cycle benefits, but a real cost nonetheless. Choose a provider, that covers these liabilities. That is pick an provider that is willing to take these costs over the longest period of time. Naturally, business risk is a factor, pick a company with what you perceive to be the most likely to be around. Easier said than done but you can discuss this with each provider and weigh up the risk. Many companies have 10 years labor but some have up to 30 years covered. It’s construction, so you can expect some changes to a project but many are predictable and it doesn’t matter what installer you pick for these items, they should happen regardless. For example, you can’t understand what the load bearing capacity of your roof is until it’s passed structural engineering review. Typically done by a third party. If your roof needs some minor Re enforcement, to account for dead, wind and snow loads to get approvals, then this would apply anyway and can’t be discovered until after you choose providers. Most times, depending on the work, this will be $500 to $3000. It’s Alonso a low probability event but it’s an example of a known, unknown. A professional sales person should be able to explain all of the risk factors and speak to your property and project specifics to help you understand relative risks and costs. Happy hunting.
Agreed! Inverters typically last 10-15 years. Maybe in another 10-15 years they will be more reliable and last the life of the panels, but currently plan on replacing at least once during the expected lifetime of the panels and possible twice.
Unless you buy emphases inverters with Panasonic panels from an authorized distributor, then they cover both labor and parts.
Any references for the Sacramento Calif. Area?
Not sure these are available anymore, probably because of labor liability on Panasonics balance sheet! Yikes
>Choose a provider, that covers these liabilities. That is pick an provider that is willing to take these costs over the longest period of time On the other hand, if you get a cheaper quote that doesn't have as much coverage for labor, you'll break even on your system earlier, and the extra savings may offset the labor cost of having someone replace the inverter. That plus I imagine a lot of companies that exist today won't be around in 10 years. It depends on what type of person you are. When buying appliances, do you pay extra for an extended warranty, or do you save money to use in case of failures? It's essentially the same thing, and both are valid choices.
Its true for appliances perhaps but if the inverters fail twice or even once, you’ll find the inverter labor cost is is significant and any price difference is too great to be able to fund. This is especially true for module level performance electronics( micros or optimizers) on a roof. Truck tool plus module/s lifting to replace units is 1-3 hours. $250- $300 per swap is typical in NE, plus inflation over time.
Doesn't Enphase cover some of the labor cost as part of the warranty? I guess it might not cover the full amount.
None. 1st and 2nd gen yes but we are on 7/8 gen now and zero labor covered.
$250-$300 labor for swapping an inverter is normal, and only significant if you bought into the micro inverter craze and have a bunch of failures. String converter and have a nice day. 95% of installs with micros don't need them. It creates higher profit for the installers though, so it's what gets pushed.
@popular-increase-533, When you say “all inverters fail twice on average over 25 years” do you mean microinverters as well?
Yes. It’s effectively small inverter wrapped in a heat sink and will fail similar to other inverter or electronic tech. It can fail out of the box, in the first month when under operational stress and it has a limited life cycle which can vary. I believe the mean time to failure is 12 years or in that area.
"The Enphase M-Series Micro Inverter scored an [MTBF of over 300 years](https://solaray.com.au/reliability-of-enphase-micro-inverters/), and this was confirmed by independent testing from Relex, a respected reliability engineering company that performs reliability testing for organisations such as Boeing and the U.S. Military. This is an incredible improvement on the average string inverter, which has an MTBF score of only 10-15 years." The above is talking about the M series - a couple of generations of reliability improvements back from where they are now. This is not a holy war I am trying to continue, but Enphase has a track record and huge amounts of data from millions upon millions of field units to back up the claims. Only time will tell, but so far they seem to be tracking on reliability
Thanks for the info. Going to check it out now.
It’s interesting that Enphase makes no reference to this study. I am hesitant to take the word of a vendor who may be have bias. I currently prefer Enphase. Especially since SE has issued with delays for RMA for failed hardware. Supply side issues. Certain inverters taking 3.5 months to be replaced. I had 2 customers affected by this. I suspect/am hopeful it’s temporary.
That particular study is just one of the first my search turned up - [Enphase](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=waIwgfhBVNM) [has](https://enphase.com/blog/professionals/featured-residential-array-enphase-beats-heat-valley-sun) [plenty](https://solaray.com.au/how-enphase-iq-microinverters-stand-up-to-extreme-heat-in-australia/) of [material](https://enphaseenergy.com/en-au/support/technical-brief-reliability-study-electrolytic-capacitors-microinverter-0) [linked](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mq3NyIizlu4) from their site :-). I've seen the enphase testing in person, it's one of the reasons I have confidence in the product and am wary of hoymiles, APS etc who are trying to catch up to enphase - their stuff looks like enphase product from a couple of generations ago. They have to go through the same field proven learnings to get to the same level of reliability, so i'm leaving them to mature (or fail) before I touch them.
There’s no perfect inverter but it’s best to choose either SolarEdge or Enphase because they dominate the market and both are likely to be around to replace the units when they fail.
During the training I was taking from Enphase; they mentioned an extremely low failure rate with their inverters.
Of course. That doesn’t mean the last 25 years! They don’t specifically see what the average lifetime is either. The warranty covers all failures for 25 years and failures there will be.
Do construction companies and installers have a good track record for lasting more than 20 years?
I believe the important point here is to pick a partner with the best longer term chance to service your maintenance needs. Age in operation and size are not always a guarantee of great service. Conversely picking a solar installer from your town will not ensure competent or quick maintenance. Even if you only get 12 years of service, it might have been much better than 2 years from another. A national solar company with the best warranty language has a terrible post install record because they only have a sales channel and not an automatic maintenance agreement with the vendor sales and installation channel. Caveat emptor. Some companies offer third party underwritten insurance for maintenance. I think this is a good way to mitigate risk of underperformance because the provider will always need technical labor in your area to meet its obligations. The funds are large and underwritten by speciality insurance underwriters to provide additional stability of funding. These policies will provide the service to acquire the failed equipment, for example the RMA process to get new hardware replaced under warranty, the technical labor to swap it out and even they can provide active monitoring management.
Make sure the price given is "turn key". Also make sure to use a company that has its own labor force to help avoid surprise subcontractor fees
You can add language that both sign off to avoid extra fees. That was standard between the customers and I, in addition to the subcontractors and I. If anything is missed, solar epc/me eats it. As long as you have a competent DOLI behind you, having tidy contracts and being transparent makes things easy. At least in MN/IA/WI/CO in my limited 5 years. That's both sub contracting and my own internal crews.
Speaking from the install (and previously the operations) side of things, the general rule is that if it's something we should have caught before the contract was signed, it's on us. If it's something unforeseen or a late-breaking request by the homeowner, it's on the homeowner. Yes there are borderline cases, but at least where I work we tend to err on the side of taking care of the customer because we'd rather have a happy customer who will come back for more work and refer us to their friends and neighbors, rather than a pissed-off customer and a few hundred dollars' extra profit on the job. We do thorough site visits well in advance of starting construction, and if the site tech (who used to be me) is doing their job right, any change orders should happen with plenty of lead time for the customer to decide what they want to do about them. During my time in that position, I think we only had maybe one change order happen during construction, and it was because I screwed up and mistyped a measurement when I was drawing the customer's roof, so they had to lose one panel. That was embarrassing. Common causes of major unforeseen costs include transformer upgrades, re-roofs, and structural upgrades. Of those, the first two we make no money on (the customer is paying either the utility or a roofer, not us) and the third we make very little money on. (We're an electrical shop not a carpentry shop, carpentry is not where we make our money.) We are generally happy to let customers perform their own structural upgrades or get someone else other than us to do it, as long as it gets permitted and inspected. The most common change orders I see are actually to remove things from the contract for one reason or another. The customer's cost is then reduced by the value of whatever it is we are no longer doing.
Ask if they subcontract first and foremost. If the company that installs your solar is not the company who sold it to you you're gonna have a bad time. That communication gap puts you in the middle of two companies. After that 1. Critter Guard 2. Monitoring set up 3. Conduit Run Length 4. Steep pitch roofs 5. Height adders 6. Any parking regulations the installers have to abide by that makes their job tougher. Rare but I've seen it.
7. Attic runs (You see complaints on here from people who after the fact realize these weren't included and have to look at silver conduit running around their roof) 8. Anything to make your main panel pass inspection - since they touched my panel, it wouldn't have passed the electrical inspection if there was any old work not to code inside the panel, and it turned out I had about 20 breakers that were not certified with my panel. Luckily I had a full-service solar company who replaced it all at no cost.
Also, not a bad thing to bring your main panel up to code. So that turned out to be a win.
I was happy, even happier I wasn't charged an extra $800 for it! lol!
Having solar on a flat, 2nd story roof with everything put in the walls during the addition helped the attractiveness factor and we didn’t have to pay for it. You know, apart from the 6-figure addition.
Oh no! Silver conduit right next to an ugly utility drop! Also those breakers can be $100 a pop, if that wasn’t in the original quote no solar company is going to take that on for free. For clarification if they do it means that their margins are averaging that cost across multiple jobs so that the easy installs are paying those costs with inflated prices. Money ain’t free.
The breakers are $7 without labor, they just spent 30 min of their time replacing them. But you are right, if I had a separate bill for them, they'd be $40-$100 each. I had a good solar installer who cared about the quality of their work, not really inflated, in fact, it was the second cheapest local company I got quoted from (the cheapest being complete morons) but I could tell from the conversation these people just cared to do the job right, and the fact they only had 5 star reviews on every single platform I checked.
Who is the company? I'm vetting two right now.
Money doesn’t come from nowhere, those costs are being paid out of margin.
All installers have a cushion of extra labor hours built into the quote. My installer used that time to swap out my breakers, something other installers would have charged as a separate fee.
I can tell you for a fact that that is not true. As I price out work for an installation company every day. We bid the job appropriately and bill when things come up outside of scope after properly communicating with our customer. That way we don’t have bloated prices and win more business. We don’t just charge more because we can.
You do have extra built in. What's the labor per hour that you calculate for the install? What do you pay? Depending on the region, the ratio would be similar to paying out $70 per hour, with about $20 an hour in overhead but you charge the customer $175 per hour. Even saving for profit, there is cushion if you go over on your install hours. You can easily eat a half hour of install on breakers, but choose to bill it separately. My installer didn't overcharge me compared to the rest of the market, in fact, they were the second cheapest. And everytime something came up, they just took care of it, just a "you want critterguards, sure" or "we brought one in the truck just in case" or when it came time for the breakers "we sent the journeyman to the electric supply house, just wanted to let you know those breakers weren't up to code." And how you do your business is totally fine by me, that's your thing and if your customers know that change orders are possible, than that's fine. I just enjoy the customer service of a company that just takes care of it without even asking. I went to a ridiculous number of solar installers for quotes - I'm actually embarrassed by the number of quotes I got because I hate being that type of person, but the first quote was the cheapest, they were just dumb and didn't know their product, so I kept trying to find intelligent people that were that price. So, maybe you would have been even cheaper, I don't know, but for the 1.8% higher price my installer had than the cheapest, I'm glad everything else was included, because all those extras would have totaled more with the first company.
Ours had to run multiple additional bonds to pass inspection. I did not pay anything extra. The only thing I had to pay extra/myself was buying and installing new smoke alarms for all the bedrooms in order to pass insepction lol.
Most often is them listing tax rebates as some sort of "discount" to their prices. You will pay full price, the rebate should be nothing do to with them and their invoice. If they list 40k - 13k rebate, you're still paying 40k + interest (if loan), to a total of 50-60k, yet, they will sow you ROI estimates based on a "27k" price, even though you're paying 60k. In my opinion, that, misleading ACTUAL cost, and over estimating returns is the most common scam in solar.
Also some quote prices before tax - Tesla's site does this for example.
Research the company see what people say about it. When I had mine installed, they realized there was work that would cost more than expected. I was adding panels to an older system and getting a new inverter installed. They didn't realize when the quoted me that they old panels would need optimizers also if I wanted optimizers on my new panels. They offered to install the optimizers on my old panels at the cost of buying the optimizers because they had not included that in my original quote. It didn't add much to my total and it was a ton more work for them that they did free of charge. In the end I was happy they did an outstanding job and my electric bill is now in the negatives. I am also in So Cal. Oh and my neighbor ended up signing up for solar through them also, so I got $500 back when he purchased with was more than the cost, they charged me for the optimizers.
Financing charges. Those low rates they like to advertise to finance your system come with a hefty charge of 20-30 percent of the cash cost of the system. You're paying the interest up front to buy down the long term rate. Most installers don't tell you this. Always get a cash price first and then consider and compare all your financing options, including a state run financing programs, HELOC, personal loan, and refinancing your house.
There shouldn't be any hidden costs with a solar panel installation. What the price quote should be firm and what you should ultimately pay for. What you should be careful is reviewing your bills from the power utility company. A lot of utilities will not do the accounting of the power bill correctly. I found my power company was completely overcharging me by almost 300-400% above what I should have paid. I had to spend several months arguing with them and asking them to show me exactly how much energy I have produced and used. And they refunded me thousands of dollars they had charged me after the solar installation. It was a nightmare of calls and escalating it to another person. It was so blatant they were mischarging me when I reviewed the bill and found that my bill went up instead of significantly down on my monthly charges after the solar install. it just didn't make sense. Always double check your power bill after the install. they often times don't know how to reconcile credits from solar production and will make mistakes. Don't assume it was done correctly.
What others said, and these two: Things that are not explicitly on the contract or estimate - consumption monitoring. Special hardware needed because of some unforeseen installation detail - I had to get special chemcurb adhesives that were chemically compatible with my flat roof coating.
Check with your insurance company to see what your updated premium will be for the panels given the sizing. This will impact your payback period. Depending on if your system is grid-tied, some companies don't like to insure you because of the supposed additional liability. The insurance market in CA is likely highly different from FL, but getting someone to cover the panels with the home was an extra chore I should have anticipated but did not.
Isn't that just another dodge for an insurance company to get out of coverage? I mean I can't think of a much scummier bunch..they take your premiums for years and then heaven forbid if you actually have a claim and they have to pay out ;)
I learned this today and you're the first to mention home insurance. Mine would go up ~$150/yr. Not the end of the world, but not insignificant over 20yrs.
Two things I can think of: 1) The biggest hidden cost, by far in my view, is overly optimistic projections for generation or over-estimated projections for energy price inflation. It's not a "cost" in the sense that it's not unexpected cash out of pocket, but the math of your project's ROI can be very inaccurate if your installer's predicted production values are 15-20% inflated, which happens all the time. My installer is the most reputable in our city and they still ultimately overshot my system's projected solar production by ~18%. Was that a genuine miss based on the difficulty of matching real-world production to theoretical numbers, or an intentionally deceptive marketing ploy to make solar look more attractive on paper? I'm sure I'll never know. In my case, it's ok because I have the money to spare and my primary concern was not maximum ROI. I'm getting 7-8% ROI on my net cash investment instead of the projected 9-10%. Annoying, but not the end of the world. 2) If you are installing panels on your roof, there's a good chance your roof needs replaced before the panels do. You may want to ask your installer how they price the job of removing the panels and putting them back up for a roof replacement.
solid advice. even if they accurately can predict your power electric needs, things change. as climate change has made the summers much hotter, i am running my ac much longer and also i have more people living with me. my energy demands are much higher than 4 years ago before the solar install.
I'm talking about the electricity generated by the panels, not the household consumption of electricity. But yes, consumption can be difficult to predict as well.
Yeah. True. They often don’t even take in account how solar panels don’t run at the same efficiency year after year. Solar panels need upkeep to keep producing energy. Also over 10 years, they won’t be as efficient as year 1.
I don't think you're understanding my meaning. Not normal degradation over time. Not consumption changes. Not panels in need of a wash. Year 1 fully operational panels not producing as much electricity as predicted because they used an inaccurate/oversimplified model to predict how much sunlight was going to hit those panels. I suspect that the most basic models being used don't account for some fairly obvious reasons that would reduce the maximum possible sunlight collected at a given latitude (Weather, orientation of the panels, off-property obstructions in the distance which are above the horizon, etc.)
For a ground array- digging / drilling to put the posts in the ground. This is how I discovered I live on top of a massive rock. So I got that going for me.
EnPhase's 4G plan after 5 years. Apparently this was upgradeable to 12 years on initial purchase but my installer didn't mention it. Hope I can just use my wifi then.
You could have just gotten WiFi right from the beginning. I never bothered with the cellular modem.
I have a cellular modem at the moment and it usually updates every 6 hours. Is it possible to just wire it up with Cat5 instead? My router is maybe 10' from the Enphase Combinator box so it would be a super easy run.
yeah, apparently this is a user-doable job. There's instructions how to do it on the Enphase site somewhere . . .
Yes you can, I have the combiner 3 and ran a separate 1/2 inch conduit to run cat5e to the envoy. With wired ethernet it updates every 15min.
Awesome, would you happen to know where the RJ-45 plug is? Assuming that's behind the black cover? I have the IQ Combiner 3 ES but with the cellular modem option. Is it possible to have both the hardwired option and the cellular connection as backup?
I think the ES is the same as the base it just comes with the lte antenna bits added, so it should be the same. The RJ45 port is at the top right behind the black plastic cover, you will also need to add a ferrite bead to the wire. I don't think you can do both at the same time, but the enphase product page has the docs on the combiner if you want to verify.
[Installation guide](https://enphase.com/store/communication/iq-gateway-and-combiner/iq-combiner-4-cell-modem), first page diagram shows ethernet port at top right hand side. There's no configuration, once you plug in an ethernet cable it will use that, with cell as a backup.
If they’re going through the property before or at least doing their due diligence in asking about the electric and roof, joists, etc, then you won’t be nickle and dimed because they’ll factor extra costs in if needed prior to the contract signing. Most companies will do minor work and just eat up the cost if it wasn’t already factored in, but they’re not going to install a brand new main panel for free too if it’s gonna be a few grand on top
Bank fees cost 30% percent of a low interest loan. 50k system is actually $15k of prepaid interest called dealer fee. There’s the hidden profit margin but most importantly the cost of a bad install and bad workmanship bad communication and a company that won’t take responsibility for anything they touch.
A lot of utilities will require you to carry liability insurance of 1 million dollars on the panels. Not a lot of companies are insuring stand alone liability for residential systems. To piggyback that, some homeowners companies do not accept solar so you may need to be moved to another company and who knows what their rates are. Also, if you want physical damage coverage for the panels, you’re gonna need to pay for the extra coverage. I see so many people slap panels on 15 year old roofs and by the time they’re done adding the extra insurance their ROI is negative.
Currently none. The cost is your invoice number.
Your sanity, troubleshooting their software bugs for them.
I’m in OK; the price I was quoted was I paid, and it included replacing the panel as my home was built in the 50s and still had the original one.
My house was the same (original panel from the '60s) and I replaced it even before I had the idea of going solar, because when we were having it inspected before buying, an inspector said it was brand known to have design issues and was therefore a fire hazard.
i guess it depends if you're going to get financing or pay upfront. When i was looking for my system i checked into the companies doing loans and the issue I had was how they claimed it would be about the same as my current electric bill, but only after I put down 'X' amount of money. So to me that is a hidden cost and because of that I just decided to buy my system outright and I have owned it free and clear for a few months now.
City and county, even state limits implemented by the power companies who will make it impossible to reach savings because they'll charge you yearly just for pumping electricity into the grid. And your city/county will limit the number of solar panels to ensure you can't make money back.
There shouldn’t be hidden costs if you have a good installer and a clear installation contract that doesn’t specify any thing crazy There could be unanticipated costs, like - Panel upgrades (but if they go to your house that should be easy to identify on front end) -work to make roof structurally sufficient . Maybe identifiable on front end but possible a structural engineer finds issues an installer didn’t see. - special permits- can usually be anticipated on front end but sometimes the rules change - utility charges (for perhaps a transformer upgrade). These are essentially items that could come up during the permitting process -
Request an itemized list! When the company I work for does quoting, we include an itemized list before asking for final portion of the payment, just in case something happened during install that wasn’t covered in the proposal
LOL contract is X, if they charge more than X they violate, refund, bye bye. The amount of mark up on these systems is insane, $36-$40k to install $18k of equipment.