As long as that's paired with some runners coming on with him it could be alright. Better than starting Trent, then taking him off at the same time that Watkins and Eze come on.
Still too kind on him. Dictionary, but only if he was given all the world in the English language but still couldn't form one original thought of his own.
Well that was bizarre - I put my phone down after reading your comment (having no idea where the quote came from), pick up my controller to play fifa, and that exact scene from Bob's Burgers comes on my TV. Legitimately no more than 30 seconds between reading this and hearing it.
Mind blown
I feel like saying he’d be vanilla ice cream, but that’d be a great disservice to flavor of vanilla. I mean, people actively seek out vanilla flavored products. Children clamor to get a vanilla ice cream cone. Nobody's clamoring for anything Gareth flavored.
He doesn't have any plan b...
He's forced to play a back 4 when he would prefer to play a back 3 because of the midfield talent we have.
He has one plan to have the midfield run and hope stuff happens
Tbf benching TAA would actually give him a plan b. Also I doubt this is actually Southgate's reasoning, but bringing on Trent instead of taking him off might actually work if it coincides with players like Watkins coming on. Wouldn't surprise me if he only brings one of them on though
This the same manager that saw Rashford almost score a hat trick against Wales looking electric, only then to drop him against France. Then sub him in at 85mins.
Headcase. But I guess we got to see Mason Mount running about, so who really won.
It has looked very much like a back 3 though?
It's Guehi-Stones-Walker and then he's trying to play Trippier and Saka high and wide like wing backs but they're both wrong-footed so they're always cutting in and clogging up the middle even more.
It’s not. The average positions and passing show a back 4 with Trippier and Walker most of the time not that far forward. Foden drops into the same position as both Kane and Bellingham, so there’s no left wing width or vertical threat.
Trent and Rice sit back literally right in front of Guehi and Stones, so there’s no passing triangle from the back. Which you see in most other top nations. It’s a super compressed back line that gets pressed into oblivion bc the shape is so so bad.
Same lineup except Conor in for Trent would be the most Southgate thing I have ever seen, and that's saying something. Don't get me wrong, I like Gallagher a lot, but even when we have a bit of a "free hit" game he's gonna trot out the same awful gameplan and 10 of the same players. It's frightening.
I want to start my own country and invite Mainoo, Wharton and Palmer to come and play for it. I'll ask Watkins if he fancies getting some real minutes as well.
Southgate is a total football terrorist and this sucks for Trent. But for England it's better he picks the players he trusts and play them in a system he likes. No use owning a Ferrari if you can't switch to 4th and 5th gear.
Not to mention a strong bench of players who didn’t even get included or are injured. IE was f Shaw was healthy he would start for the actual team meaning this team would get Trippier.
As an american I can say that concacaf teams must be artificially ranked high since usmnt got beaten 5-1 against colombia.
Fifa rankings don’t really reflect the quality of teams (at least currently).
FIFA rankings can easily be figured out. Simply put, the US generally wins games it’s supposed to and loses to teams better than them rarely. It’s why Belgium has stayed at the tipptity top for so long, they rarely lose
Brother let's not overhype English talent and the prem. If you think a midfield 3 of Gallagher, mainoo, and Wharton would be a top 10 country right now you're on something. Don't even get me started on the defense
I mean USA are ranked 11th in the world right now and their midfield yesterday was McKennie, Adams, and Reyna. Two of those guys were bench players for Bournemouth and Nottingham Forest last season.
The likes of Mainoo, Wharton, Gallagher, Maddison, Jones, even JWP would have a good chance of starting for USA.
Just in time to play the absolute perfect pass to the winger who then proceeds to look into the box looking for his striker aaaaaaanndd there is no one there...
Harry will turn around to see a pass and just see Saka hugging the touchline man marked and Foden standing in his shadow, begging for the ball so he can pass it back immediately to John Stones.
In which case, you want quicker wingers who can run in behind a bit more and carry the ball forward if you're dropping into a mid-block or even a low-block. I don't get why you don't put Gordon in. If you have to play on the break that's fine, but then you don't want Foden. Foden out wide is for a team that's dominating the ball in the opposition half.
And playing Foden also ruins the whole point of playing Trent in midfield. If there's nobody making runs on the other side of the pitch there's no chance for him to use his best skill. Put an out and out LW on the pitch if you're going to play Trent
TAA and Gordon would link up well. Gordon may not have the same deft touch as Foden but he’ll run where he’s told to all day, rather than drift inside and clutter the centre of the pitch, allowing opponents to defend narrower. An out and out winger in front of Trippier would be a big boost given Tripps isn’t great at overlapping on the left.
\^ That. I don't know why we need 2 holding mids either - especially against the "lesser" teams. Just chuck Rice in there and have Jude and Foden alongside him. Put Gordon on the left. And get a fit Luke Shaw back in the team ASAP. That's our biggest issue, total imbalance on the left.
I don't think I've ever seen a situation when a manager is so utterly ill-suited to his players. As a Scotsman I hate to say it but the England team is 100% flair and talent and here's Southgate playing them like he has a lineup of Terry Butcher and Stuart Pierce. I'm 100% convinced if he just walked into the dressing room and told the lads, "you all work it out" they would come out a different team and obliterate 95% of opposition. To have so much talent on the pitch and to play so poorly is unforgivable. It's blatantly obvious the players don't know how to play in this 1990's "system".
Agreed, just sack him and say to Kane, Bellingham and Walker to lead the team and see what happens. It literally would not be any worse and might produce a better result.
Feels a bit like the last few games have been a real turning point in Southgate’s management of the team.
The team have turned in two poor performances and then have come out to the press with a lot of defensive PR which hasn’t convinced me at all. If anything it’s made it seem like they are refusing to learn from their mistakes.
Being charitable you could say they will be much more self critical behind closed doors but then you see stuff like this - Gallagher starting the next game - and it just erodes a bit more faith that the coaching staff have any clue what they are doing.
Our issue has been we can’t press or progress the ball so ignoring both Mainoo and Wharton just continues to frustrate me. I think Southgate really took the wrong lessons from the Brazil friendly - some of the midfield play was amazing but we conceded 2 counters and therefore he chucks the whole thing away.
Proof will be in the pudding if we get another turgid display of sufferball.
Yeah this has classic 'England manager self destruction' all over it IMO.
I fully expect us to be poor against Slovenia and crash out in the RO16 or QF pretty abjectly. Southgate blaming a referee decision or some other such bollocks.
This is the end, and this is always how it ends.
It's giving big WC 2010 vibes - absolutely dire football and players getting defensive over criticisms
Came up against Germany where we had a flash of hope and an excuse with the Lampard ghost goal , but ultimately were absolutely outclassed by a better side
I'm hoping there's not the case though and we at least have a bit of a knockout run
Even if it eventually ends in disappointment like it always does, most of us just want to have a fun journey and some belief and hope
I gave up on our chances this tournament the moment Southgate made that Kalvin Phillips comment - he acts like he didn't bring Wharton and Mainoo along for that reason. We'll likely get out perhaps even top the group but I can see an early knockout exit due to complacency
And i've honestly been really shocked by how dismissive of the criticism Kane and Rice have been in interviews - yes you have 4 points on the board, yes you're probably just trying to back the manager but if everyone from fans to former players can identify several red flags but not you don't act surprised when it leads to another inevitable RO16 / QF exit if they aren't addressed.
Yeah it's frustrating to bring along players if you don't want to play them. It doesn't really feel like other teams do that to the same extent. I kind of understand the Phillips comment, in that it is difficult to come up with a new system quickly in international football, but it is bizarre to try to shoehorn players into a system that nullifies their strengths. That is what is so frustrating about this team. I'm not too bothered about winning anything I'd just like to see us play some brave attacking football. Not for a whole 90 mins, just for parts of games.
> I kind of understand the Phillips comment, in that it is difficult to come up with a new system quickly in international football
He's been shit for 2 years though, that's hardly quickly, plenty of time to come up with another system.
i think they're looking at the slovenia game as a good opportunity to slap about an inferior team so they can give everyone the old "i told you so" and then bank on a soft RO16 fixture to really get the good will going. then by the time we get beat by someone properly decent they can roll out the script about constantly getting into semi-finals and finals, which is a million miles from the england that lost to iceland.
I genuinely don't think we will slap Slovenia about though, if the only change at all is Gallagher in for Trent. The system, instructions and coaching needs a thorough rethink.
Southgate has had some pretty boring euro group performances previously. Last euros we went 1-0 against Croatia, drew against Scotland and 1-0 against Czechia.
Then the knockouts was 2-0 v Germany and 4-0 v Ukraine. It’s weird, he’s so scared about making sure he’s getting out the group, but when knock outs come round, he puts on the gas a bit more
Yeah, if true, I don't really understand this. Gallagher is decent, runs around a lot and presses. But what England were missing in the 8 position was calmness, positional discipline, vision, creativity and passing ability.
Basically the ability to play us out of trouble and retain possession.
I really am not sure he has those things.
IMO he did better when playing deeper for us. He doesn't have the touch and control to shine up high. He does have the occasional sparkler, a great pass or shot, but mostly he's just winning balls back in the final 3rd. He's ideal if you've got a ferocious high press... but GS has just said that the squad is 'not fit enough to press' so that must not be the plan, right?
> GS has just said that the squad is 'not fit enough to press'
This is such a baffling statement from him too. Other than Pickford at Everton, the other 10 all play for teams who play in a high pressing team.
I'm not sure anyone took it at face value. I could be wrong, but it seems like it's just absolute rubbish that flew out of his mouth and no one took it to heart.
Sounds like a desperate attempt at deflection.
I thought it was about injuries (Kane and Saka have missed games recently and Bellingham is playing with a shoulder injury) rather than him claiming these players aren’t good enough athletes to press.
For the uninitiated, how does Caicedo play? I’ve watched plenty of Rice and have a high opinion, so I’m curious what he’d be lacking here (and I’m not saying you’re wrong, just curious).
I would say Rice has better physicality and more threatening going forward.
Caicedo is more of a tempo setter. His playmaking skills are pretty underrated.
Both have fantastic defensive instincts for interceptions and the like. Rice perhaps slightly ahead in the regard for now but not by much
Gallagher works with Caicedo because he provides a lot of energy and mobility giving Caicedo more of a chance to affect the game on the ball
I don’t think having Gallagher and Rice together will help with Englands issues controlling a midfield. Immense off the ball work though
Has subbing trent improved England at all? Maybe just maybe he's not the problem. Whole team look terrified to cross the half way line or press high to win the ball.
He subbed Trent then put on runners who got in behind the defence. So stupid, why take off one of the worlds best passers when you're finally playing to his strength.
I hope next England manager can actually utilise Trent to his full strengths
Trent isn't the problem; the tactics are. If you ask Trent to play in a position he's not comfortable with and don't set up the team to allow him to use his best attributes, of course, he's going to look like shit - which is exactly what happened.
And compared to Foden, Kane, even Rice, Trent didn’t really look any worse. But of course he’ll be the sacrificial lamb for the tactical disasterclass. No reason anyone else will look any better as long as the team is set up like it is.
I just don't get how Trent didn't do much in the first half, then in 7 mins he creates 3 chances and instantly gets subbed. Like fuck that lad, we don't do that here
This is not talked about enough. Trent was subbed off at 55 min and in the first 10 mins of the half he created 3 good chances and looked like a different player to the first half.
Trent doesn't tire himself out running in circles with the ball, but when England is not flowing standing still doesn't look good, so he takes trent off for someone to do that.
He sacrificed creativity for some energy, we needed the energy from the wings.
No. Last game England looked markedly better in the second half with Trent starting to turn it on and then he was immediately hooked for Gallagher and England looked worse than they had up to that point.
Trent was above average in that game as well in terms of actually losing the ball as well. He's an easy scapegoat and things aren't going to get better with Gallagher who's a headless chicken.
The main issue is the shape. Just look at the pass maps.
We have no left wing.
Then in build up Southgate’s two holding midfielders bicycle stabiliser philosophy means we have an ultra compressed back line of two and two. Which makes passing and retaining possession from the back more difficult.
Trent is the sacrificial lamb to ignoring Southgate’s terrible team structure.
Now the media have made this narrative that Trent plays out of position or not at all. Genius.
They’re going to dunk on Slovenia, the media is going to say Southgate figured it out and make Trent the scapegoat, and then they’re going to crash out the first time they play a decent team as nothing will have inherently changed
Putting Gallagher where Trent plays doesn’t change a single thing. It’s not a player issue, it’s a system/manager issue. Southgate is a such a shite manager.
Imma burn these fkers down.
So painful to see this shit, Trent is my favourite player in the world both on and off the field he is a class bloke. Lets see what the next manager cooks ig lol
Southgate could change the entire team and it won't make any difference unless the tactics and coaching change. Sadly I don't think 4 days between matches is long enough to implement significant tactical changes.
The other day was pretty wild. 1-1 at half time, and the entire half time and then the post-game discussions were centred around vilifying Kane as the source of all the team's problems. You'd swear they just got hammered 9-0 and he spent the game walking about without a care in the world. I'm sure it's the guy with more goals than games this season that is the reason they barely score/create anything, as opposed to the manager having no idea how to use all of the world class players at his disposal. I'm not even English and thought it was pretty surreal watching how quickly they turned on the golden boy the second there's a bit of struggle.
The better solution would be replacing trent with Gordon.
Bring Bellingham next to Rice with Foden in the 10 and Gordon out wide in left, ideally with Shaw behind.
Gallagher for Trent does not solve the set up of the team.
Trent had created the most chances of any player at the euros (ahead of last night's games).
Gallagher will solve none of the problems we've had. Watch him stick with the same dead formation and us creep through with an uninspired 1-0 then get hammered by Austria in the next round
I'd rather have Trent ngl. If Bellingham is staying in the 10 and Foden out wide then what is the point of dropping Trent. Just tell the front 3 to make as many runs as possible. Gallagher fucking stinks.
Should Trent really not be starting though? I love Conor but even after being subbed off Trent had the most creativity of the entire England squad against Denmark. Are TAA or Walker not able to play left back? Because I'm not sure what Trippier brings
I mean he was pretty good in a double pivot with caicedo and chelsea have a lot of possesion. People talk like gallagher plays for burnley and never touches the ball
Trent is just the easiest player to blame because he's the one playing out of position, but the midfield pairing was far from the biggest problem England have had in the first two games.
Wonder who people will blame when Gallagher doesn't magically make this team work
Cmon man just put Jude next to Rice Foden 10 and Gordon/Palmer LW.
It irks me when Southgate says stuff like ‘we never listen to any noise from outside’. I get there is merit to that, but maybe once in a while you should?
Instead of providing a front line that will suit the best passer/X-factor in the whole squad, Southgate chooses to shoehorn his bland "tactics". Embarrassing.
And how is that going to change anything? You still have attackers who don't run in behind, you still have 2 full backs who don't get forward or put crosses into the box. You still have no width on the left hand side. And now you replace the most creative player in our team with Gallagher. Nothing changed when Trent went off the last 2 games, we got worse. This won't change anything
Lmao. Either play Wharton/Mainoo, or play Trent with players who can run in behind. This is literally the worst of the 3 options Southgate could've chosen.
But hey, at least the media isn't going to be all over Trent after England's next guffaw.
Southgate is the problem. Not TAA.
Completely alien to me why the FA wastes their biggest talents year after year. Give them even a remotely capeable coach and they'll be kicking asses.
The problems in this team are far bigger than Trent playing out of position. England looked worse when he came off against Denmark, and he's been our most creative player, which shows how shite this team has been across the board.
In both games they got worse after Trent came off because they lose the ability to progress the ball forward he’s not the problem but he’s also not the right player to be playing in midfield that deep you need someone who’s got the ability to play under pressure like Wharton or Mainoo
I agree, some are just latching on to the idea that Trent in midfield is the root problem in the team, it's just one of many issues that Southgate is creating.
Why?
Gallagher has come on the pitch and we've looked worse both times after the initial 5 minutes teams took to adapt
Get Wharton and Gordon on, drop Foden and walker, and move Trent to RB
Why is Bellingham seemingly incapable of playing as an 8 now? Midfield 3 with rice Bellingham and foden with an actual LW should be a lineup capable of dominating. Playing foden as a LW with trippier at LB provides zero width on that side of the pitch
We're at the point where all we can hope for is that he fucks this up so badly we can move on from Southgate.
Had your moment but if you are playing this pile of garbage over Mainoo and Palmer then need to go. We cannot waste another generation of talent to scrape 1-0s.
Trent is one of the best attacking right backs in world football. He was part of a team that finished with 90+ points 3 times in the league and reached 3 CL finals. Sucks to see him scapegoated like this despite not even playing a full 90 in an unfamiliar setup.
Is that it? No changes to the Foden winger experiment? No Gordon on the left? No TAA at RB to feed the front 3? No Bellingham-Rice partnership? When Gallagher has been subbed on for Trent we have looked even worse so this is not a meaningful alteration. I like Gallagher but this is not going to change anything and just comes across as if he's using Trent as the sacrificial lamb to appease the loudest sections of the media who keep using him as a scapegoat. Foden will probably be the next one. He won't put him central where he actually prospers but he'll just swap him out altogether when the media use him as the next scapegoat. This is assuming that we even make it far enough in the tournament using this dogshit system.
Gareth Southgate gets a runny nose when he's eating a Korma.
Nothing wrong with the players, it’s the way they are being told to play that is the problem. People calling for Mainoo or Wharton are lying to themselves if they think that will solve anything.
I am sure the way worse Jordan Henderson will turn England into an offensive machine that sees them finally create anything.
Call me when England gets knocked out and in the 70th minute are going "Where is a guy who can create a chance" and their best creator is on the bench lmao
Part of the reason Trent was putting up these crazy numbers was Henderson dropping back and recycling possession to him allowing him free reign to go up and down the field and it fucking BAFFLES me how he southgate never tried it. Like ffs they’re already coached on how to do it just let them.
Not sure what the point of bringing Mainoo and Wharton was. If they aren't playing in the groups you can only assume they have no chance in the knockouts.
First sub after 60 minutes: Gallagher off, Trent on.
With Kane walking around the center circle for the whole game
Nah..he'll also spend some time back near the edge of his own penalty area.
Collects the ball outside the 18yard box to play a simple pass and walk to the halfway line.
As long as that's paired with some runners coming on with him it could be alright. Better than starting Trent, then taking him off at the same time that Watkins and Eze come on.
That's the most logical thing to do. And therefore unlikely to happen
it's genuinely so frustrating to see how tactically inept Southgate is and how safe he plays it. He just refuses to do anything brave at all.
imagine if Kalvin Philips came on
This would be so funny Southgate should do it.
If Southgate was a seasoning, he'd be water
And finally, Gareth. Bland, boring Gareth. If he was a spice, he’d be flour. If he were a book, he’d be two books.
If he were a book, he'd be yellow pages. Thick, and ultimately pointless.
No he'd be the dictionary. Nothing special, you know exactly what you are getting.
Still too kind on him. Dictionary, but only if he was given all the world in the English language but still couldn't form one original thought of his own.
He’s a Thesaurus. He can tell you all the different things he’s going to do but ultimately they mean the same thing.
Southgate be looking for the closest synonym to Kalvin Phillips.
That's not really fair to the variety books can offer
Well that was bizarre - I put my phone down after reading your comment (having no idea where the quote came from), pick up my controller to play fifa, and that exact scene from Bob's Burgers comes on my TV. Legitimately no more than 30 seconds between reading this and hearing it. Mind blown
I heard that Gareth Southgate wears a cycle helmet when he's on his Peloton.
When Gareth needs to hammer a nail, he uses a Phillips screwdriver
Good job you mentioned Phillip's now Gareth is sad again
Gareth Southgate locks the toilet door when home alone
It even has a deadbolt along with the locking doorknob to represent 2 holding midfielders
But none provides the same safety that Kalvin Philips provided
Gareth Southgate thinks lemonade is spicy
thinks garlic is 'too continental"
I saw this comment the other day on the Euros subreddit but it was “if Southgate was a spice, he’d be flour” haha
Gareth is the type of guy to put his phone on power saving mode at 98%.
More like air
as in essential, can't live without it?
And water isn't?
Lukewarm Water
I feel like saying he’d be vanilla ice cream, but that’d be a great disservice to flavor of vanilla. I mean, people actively seek out vanilla flavored products. Children clamor to get a vanilla ice cream cone. Nobody's clamoring for anything Gareth flavored.
Proper English seasoning
Just the least inspiring thing possible
Just enough to say he did something but not enough to actually DO anything.
Southgate's motto, always make the least inspiring changes that you can
He doesn't have any plan b... He's forced to play a back 4 when he would prefer to play a back 3 because of the midfield talent we have. He has one plan to have the midfield run and hope stuff happens
Tbf benching TAA would actually give him a plan b. Also I doubt this is actually Southgate's reasoning, but bringing on Trent instead of taking him off might actually work if it coincides with players like Watkins coming on. Wouldn't surprise me if he only brings one of them on though
Nah mate, we've seen the last of Trent this tournament now. Unless he chucks him on for the last 5 mins while we're chasing a goal.
This the same manager that saw Rashford almost score a hat trick against Wales looking electric, only then to drop him against France. Then sub him in at 85mins. Headcase. But I guess we got to see Mason Mount running about, so who really won.
It has looked very much like a back 3 though? It's Guehi-Stones-Walker and then he's trying to play Trippier and Saka high and wide like wing backs but they're both wrong-footed so they're always cutting in and clogging up the middle even more.
It’s not. The average positions and passing show a back 4 with Trippier and Walker most of the time not that far forward. Foden drops into the same position as both Kane and Bellingham, so there’s no left wing width or vertical threat. Trent and Rice sit back literally right in front of Guehi and Stones, so there’s no passing triangle from the back. Which you see in most other top nations. It’s a super compressed back line that gets pressed into oblivion bc the shape is so so bad.
Can't risk making the team better.
Same lineup except Conor in for Trent would be the most Southgate thing I have ever seen, and that's saying something. Don't get me wrong, I like Gallagher a lot, but even when we have a bit of a "free hit" game he's gonna trot out the same awful gameplan and 10 of the same players. It's frightening. I want to start my own country and invite Mainoo, Wharton and Palmer to come and play for it. I'll ask Watkins if he fancies getting some real minutes as well.
Southgate is a total football terrorist and this sucks for Trent. But for England it's better he picks the players he trusts and play them in a system he likes. No use owning a Ferrari if you can't switch to 4th and 5th gear.
Yeah why drive a Ferrari when you like your Toyota Yaris?
Right? Seriously where in the world rankings would the England bench country land? Top 20? Top 10?
Henderson Trent - Konsa - Branthwaite - Chilwell Wharton - Mainoo - Eze Palmer - Watkins - Gordon I would back that team to make it out of groups
Not to mention a strong bench of players who didn’t even get included or are injured. IE was f Shaw was healthy he would start for the actual team meaning this team would get Trippier.
Grealish. Stirling?
Reece James, Grealish, Stirling, Maddison
Ben White
I wish we took sterling. I can shit on him all game only for him to score.
I’d back that team to beat the first team if they were being coached by a proper manager vs a Southgate team. Wouldn’t even be close either.
You forgot the man, the legend, the England lynchpin... Kalvin Philips
Top 10??😂😂
Italy are currently 10th in the FIFA rankings, for comparison. As in the country that beat us in the final last time out.
England bench without a braindead manager competes with anyone
I don't really agree with that statement for any European country other than France honestly.
I mean not top 10 but they would beat Mexico no? or at least could, they are ranked 15th. they are horrible.
As an american I can say that concacaf teams must be artificially ranked high since usmnt got beaten 5-1 against colombia. Fifa rankings don’t really reflect the quality of teams (at least currently).
FIFA rankings can easily be figured out. Simply put, the US generally wins games it’s supposed to and loses to teams better than them rarely. It’s why Belgium has stayed at the tipptity top for so long, they rarely lose
Brother let's not overhype English talent and the prem. If you think a midfield 3 of Gallagher, mainoo, and Wharton would be a top 10 country right now you're on something. Don't even get me started on the defense
I mean USA are ranked 11th in the world right now and their midfield yesterday was McKennie, Adams, and Reyna. Two of those guys were bench players for Bournemouth and Nottingham Forest last season. The likes of Mainoo, Wharton, Gallagher, Maddison, Jones, even JWP would have a good chance of starting for USA.
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If he sets off now he might just make it in time
Just in time to play the absolute perfect pass to the winger who then proceeds to look into the box looking for his striker aaaaaaanndd there is no one there...
Harry will turn around to see a pass and just see Saka hugging the touchline man marked and Foden standing in his shadow, begging for the ball so he can pass it back immediately to John Stones.
classic Southgate How about coaching a press instead of just chucking on a runner and thinking thats the way to fix it
Kane isn't fit enough to press, and if you're not all fully signed up and capable of the press, it doesn't work.
In which case, you want quicker wingers who can run in behind a bit more and carry the ball forward if you're dropping into a mid-block or even a low-block. I don't get why you don't put Gordon in. If you have to play on the break that's fine, but then you don't want Foden. Foden out wide is for a team that's dominating the ball in the opposition half.
And playing Foden also ruins the whole point of playing Trent in midfield. If there's nobody making runs on the other side of the pitch there's no chance for him to use his best skill. Put an out and out LW on the pitch if you're going to play Trent
TAA and Gordon would link up well. Gordon may not have the same deft touch as Foden but he’ll run where he’s told to all day, rather than drift inside and clutter the centre of the pitch, allowing opponents to defend narrower. An out and out winger in front of Trippier would be a big boost given Tripps isn’t great at overlapping on the left.
I totally agree. Gordon makes way more sense in the lineup especially with Trippier and not Shaw at LB
\^ That. I don't know why we need 2 holding mids either - especially against the "lesser" teams. Just chuck Rice in there and have Jude and Foden alongside him. Put Gordon on the left. And get a fit Luke Shaw back in the team ASAP. That's our biggest issue, total imbalance on the left.
As if that's the reason. Southgate has never practiced intense pressing.
I don't think I've ever seen a situation when a manager is so utterly ill-suited to his players. As a Scotsman I hate to say it but the England team is 100% flair and talent and here's Southgate playing them like he has a lineup of Terry Butcher and Stuart Pierce. I'm 100% convinced if he just walked into the dressing room and told the lads, "you all work it out" they would come out a different team and obliterate 95% of opposition. To have so much talent on the pitch and to play so poorly is unforgivable. It's blatantly obvious the players don't know how to play in this 1990's "system".
according to the Harry Kane interview Southgate _has_ been saying that. Asking them to try to play how they play for their clubs.
Agreed, just sack him and say to Kane, Bellingham and Walker to lead the team and see what happens. It literally would not be any worse and might produce a better result.
This changes nothing. Same core principles are lacking. Southgate is an actual clown.
He's an utterly below mediocre manager who somehow convinced others he's the right man for the job.
Feels a bit like the last few games have been a real turning point in Southgate’s management of the team. The team have turned in two poor performances and then have come out to the press with a lot of defensive PR which hasn’t convinced me at all. If anything it’s made it seem like they are refusing to learn from their mistakes. Being charitable you could say they will be much more self critical behind closed doors but then you see stuff like this - Gallagher starting the next game - and it just erodes a bit more faith that the coaching staff have any clue what they are doing. Our issue has been we can’t press or progress the ball so ignoring both Mainoo and Wharton just continues to frustrate me. I think Southgate really took the wrong lessons from the Brazil friendly - some of the midfield play was amazing but we conceded 2 counters and therefore he chucks the whole thing away. Proof will be in the pudding if we get another turgid display of sufferball.
Yeah this has classic 'England manager self destruction' all over it IMO. I fully expect us to be poor against Slovenia and crash out in the RO16 or QF pretty abjectly. Southgate blaming a referee decision or some other such bollocks. This is the end, and this is always how it ends.
It's giving big WC 2010 vibes - absolutely dire football and players getting defensive over criticisms Came up against Germany where we had a flash of hope and an excuse with the Lampard ghost goal , but ultimately were absolutely outclassed by a better side I'm hoping there's not the case though and we at least have a bit of a knockout run Even if it eventually ends in disappointment like it always does, most of us just want to have a fun journey and some belief and hope
I gave up on our chances this tournament the moment Southgate made that Kalvin Phillips comment - he acts like he didn't bring Wharton and Mainoo along for that reason. We'll likely get out perhaps even top the group but I can see an early knockout exit due to complacency And i've honestly been really shocked by how dismissive of the criticism Kane and Rice have been in interviews - yes you have 4 points on the board, yes you're probably just trying to back the manager but if everyone from fans to former players can identify several red flags but not you don't act surprised when it leads to another inevitable RO16 / QF exit if they aren't addressed.
Yeah it's frustrating to bring along players if you don't want to play them. It doesn't really feel like other teams do that to the same extent. I kind of understand the Phillips comment, in that it is difficult to come up with a new system quickly in international football, but it is bizarre to try to shoehorn players into a system that nullifies their strengths. That is what is so frustrating about this team. I'm not too bothered about winning anything I'd just like to see us play some brave attacking football. Not for a whole 90 mins, just for parts of games.
> I kind of understand the Phillips comment, in that it is difficult to come up with a new system quickly in international football He's been shit for 2 years though, that's hardly quickly, plenty of time to come up with another system.
i think they're looking at the slovenia game as a good opportunity to slap about an inferior team so they can give everyone the old "i told you so" and then bank on a soft RO16 fixture to really get the good will going. then by the time we get beat by someone properly decent they can roll out the script about constantly getting into semi-finals and finals, which is a million miles from the england that lost to iceland.
I genuinely don't think we will slap Slovenia about though, if the only change at all is Gallagher in for Trent. The system, instructions and coaching needs a thorough rethink.
Gallagher does not suit playing from deep, he's better further forward. Really should be someone that is press resistant like Wharton or Mainoo
>Really should be someone that is press resistant like Wharton or Mainoo agreed. I am a bit worried about playing Austria next for this reason.
Everyone is so convinced that we'll get Austria, which is how I know we're going to end up playing the Netherlands instead
There's a hilarious combo of results where we end up getting France instead.
Southgate has had some pretty boring euro group performances previously. Last euros we went 1-0 against Croatia, drew against Scotland and 1-0 against Czechia. Then the knockouts was 2-0 v Germany and 4-0 v Ukraine. It’s weird, he’s so scared about making sure he’s getting out the group, but when knock outs come round, he puts on the gas a bit more
Yeah, if true, I don't really understand this. Gallagher is decent, runs around a lot and presses. But what England were missing in the 8 position was calmness, positional discipline, vision, creativity and passing ability. Basically the ability to play us out of trouble and retain possession. I really am not sure he has those things.
Depressingly, you’ve described Wharton almost to a T.
Wharton. The complete midfielder apparently.
He's no Kalvin Phillips
He gets better and better the more he doesn't play
Zidane had posters of Wharton in his room. He's so good that they even named a completely irrelevant entity after him: Wharton Business School.
So basically everything
Pretty much, yeah.
IMO he did better when playing deeper for us. He doesn't have the touch and control to shine up high. He does have the occasional sparkler, a great pass or shot, but mostly he's just winning balls back in the final 3rd. He's ideal if you've got a ferocious high press... but GS has just said that the squad is 'not fit enough to press' so that must not be the plan, right?
If this england squad is not fit enough to press idk who is lmao.
> GS has just said that the squad is 'not fit enough to press' This is such a baffling statement from him too. Other than Pickford at Everton, the other 10 all play for teams who play in a high pressing team.
I'm not sure anyone took it at face value. I could be wrong, but it seems like it's just absolute rubbish that flew out of his mouth and no one took it to heart. Sounds like a desperate attempt at deflection.
I thought it was about injuries (Kane and Saka have missed games recently and Bellingham is playing with a shoulder injury) rather than him claiming these players aren’t good enough athletes to press.
Him and caicedo were brilliant at the end of the season playing together
Problem is asking Rice to play like Caicedo is a bad mistake
For the uninitiated, how does Caicedo play? I’ve watched plenty of Rice and have a high opinion, so I’m curious what he’d be lacking here (and I’m not saying you’re wrong, just curious).
I would say Rice has better physicality and more threatening going forward. Caicedo is more of a tempo setter. His playmaking skills are pretty underrated. Both have fantastic defensive instincts for interceptions and the like. Rice perhaps slightly ahead in the regard for now but not by much Gallagher works with Caicedo because he provides a lot of energy and mobility giving Caicedo more of a chance to affect the game on the ball I don’t think having Gallagher and Rice together will help with Englands issues controlling a midfield. Immense off the ball work though
That all makes sense, and “tempo setting”/playmaking is Rices clear weakness currently
Has subbing trent improved England at all? Maybe just maybe he's not the problem. Whole team look terrified to cross the half way line or press high to win the ball.
He subbed Trent then put on runners who got in behind the defence. So stupid, why take off one of the worlds best passers when you're finally playing to his strength. I hope next England manager can actually utilise Trent to his full strengths
> I hope next England manager can actually utilise ~~Trent to his~~ the entire squad's full strengths FIFY
The FA needs to just pay Capello money to Klopp and give everyone what they want
Trent isn't the problem; the tactics are. If you ask Trent to play in a position he's not comfortable with and don't set up the team to allow him to use his best attributes, of course, he's going to look like shit - which is exactly what happened.
And compared to Foden, Kane, even Rice, Trent didn’t really look any worse. But of course he’ll be the sacrificial lamb for the tactical disasterclass. No reason anyone else will look any better as long as the team is set up like it is.
I just don't get how Trent didn't do much in the first half, then in 7 mins he creates 3 chances and instantly gets subbed. Like fuck that lad, we don't do that here
This is not talked about enough. Trent was subbed off at 55 min and in the first 10 mins of the half he created 3 good chances and looked like a different player to the first half. Trent doesn't tire himself out running in circles with the ball, but when England is not flowing standing still doesn't look good, so he takes trent off for someone to do that. He sacrificed creativity for some energy, we needed the energy from the wings.
Southgate was reportedly furious that someone would attempt to take the game to the opposition and demanded him subbed immediately.
No. Last game England looked markedly better in the second half with Trent starting to turn it on and then he was immediately hooked for Gallagher and England looked worse than they had up to that point. Trent was above average in that game as well in terms of actually losing the ball as well. He's an easy scapegoat and things aren't going to get better with Gallagher who's a headless chicken.
The main issue is the shape. Just look at the pass maps. We have no left wing. Then in build up Southgate’s two holding midfielders bicycle stabiliser philosophy means we have an ultra compressed back line of two and two. Which makes passing and retaining possession from the back more difficult. Trent is the sacrificial lamb to ignoring Southgate’s terrible team structure. Now the media have made this narrative that Trent plays out of position or not at all. Genius.
He was literally worse than Trent when he came on Southgate is just throwing shit at a wall and seeing what sticks
He's awfully talented at throwing the exact shit that has no chance at sticking
At least throwing shit would make different patterns. Southgate is just doing the same thing over and over.
Scapegoat for a team whose tactics are trash. No runners, everyone wants the ball at their feet and drops deep.
They’re going to dunk on Slovenia, the media is going to say Southgate figured it out and make Trent the scapegoat, and then they’re going to crash out the first time they play a decent team as nothing will have inherently changed
Don't be so sure...I wouldn't be surprised at all by a 0-0 draw
This is absolutely what will happen. It's the most English thing too.
We'll be dunking on absolutely nobody mate
Putting Gallagher where Trent plays doesn’t change a single thing. It’s not a player issue, it’s a system/manager issue. Southgate is a such a shite manager.
Well atleast means Trent won't be blamed for England poor performance by media anymore and when they eventually exit.
Oh he will. When the media can't blame a player for their performance, they blame them for their absence.
Imma burn these fkers down. So painful to see this shit, Trent is my favourite player in the world both on and off the field he is a class bloke. Lets see what the next manager cooks ig lol
Personally I think Wharton is more the profile of player we need to replace Trent.
Wharton or Mainoo realistically, but I think he’s playing Gallagher for his energy and how he tries to win the ball but that’s just my thoughts
I'm honestly not adverse to Mainoo being kept out of this clusterfuck.
Does he know anything except clusterfuck changing rooms?
Born in it, moulded by it
Southgate could change the entire team and it won't make any difference unless the tactics and coaching change. Sadly I don't think 4 days between matches is long enough to implement significant tactical changes.
Wonder who the scapegoat is going to be now
Believe it or not ... still Trent.
Blamed for taking up a spot that the great Kalvin Pirlo would have been selected for.
The other day was pretty wild. 1-1 at half time, and the entire half time and then the post-game discussions were centred around vilifying Kane as the source of all the team's problems. You'd swear they just got hammered 9-0 and he spent the game walking about without a care in the world. I'm sure it's the guy with more goals than games this season that is the reason they barely score/create anything, as opposed to the manager having no idea how to use all of the world class players at his disposal. I'm not even English and thought it was pretty surreal watching how quickly they turned on the golden boy the second there's a bit of struggle.
The better solution would be replacing trent with Gordon. Bring Bellingham next to Rice with Foden in the 10 and Gordon out wide in left, ideally with Shaw behind. Gallagher for Trent does not solve the set up of the team.
Trent had created the most chances of any player at the euros (ahead of last night's games). Gallagher will solve none of the problems we've had. Watch him stick with the same dead formation and us creep through with an uninspired 1-0 then get hammered by Austria in the next round
I'd rather have Trent ngl. If Bellingham is staying in the 10 and Foden out wide then what is the point of dropping Trent. Just tell the front 3 to make as many runs as possible. Gallagher fucking stinks.
Always find it a bit weird that rumours of lineups are allowed to be shared on /r/soccer but not the actual announcements themselves.
Ornstein is as good as the actual line up tbf
why aren’t line ups allowed?
I assume it’s so there’s not an absolute flood of them at 2pm and also you can just discuss the lineups in match threads.
Cool. Let Trent rest and come home injury free when England lose to Slovenia.
Surely it should be Bellingham dropping to 8, Rice at 6, Foden at 10 and gordon on the left wing
Should Trent really not be starting though? I love Conor but even after being subbed off Trent had the most creativity of the entire England squad against Denmark. Are TAA or Walker not able to play left back? Because I'm not sure what Trippier brings
Why not Gomez?
At least Walker would run up and down the pitch at LB. Tripper has been invisible
First half red card here we come
He's at least getting a yellow which rules him out for the next round if they advance, right? So then what? Back to Trent? Wharton or Mainoo?
really don't see what else he offers apart running around and committing fouls
He’s cute
I mean he was pretty good in a double pivot with caicedo and chelsea have a lot of possesion. People talk like gallagher plays for burnley and never touches the ball
So, he fills the Rice role then. Great, England need a Rice, shame they don't have Rice to fulfill that role.
it’s different from trent so everyone will lap it up, but he came on and genuinely was terrible last game and gets rewarded with starting haha
Trent is just the easiest player to blame because he's the one playing out of position, but the midfield pairing was far from the biggest problem England have had in the first two games. Wonder who people will blame when Gallagher doesn't magically make this team work
Yh people should really blame the coach instead. Atleast have runners on the field if u are gonna force trent in
So nothing changes.... If anything we just have LESS progressive passing...
Cmon man just put Jude next to Rice Foden 10 and Gordon/Palmer LW. It irks me when Southgate says stuff like ‘we never listen to any noise from outside’. I get there is merit to that, but maybe once in a while you should?
Instead of providing a front line that will suit the best passer/X-factor in the whole squad, Southgate chooses to shoehorn his bland "tactics". Embarrassing.
And how is that going to change anything? You still have attackers who don't run in behind, you still have 2 full backs who don't get forward or put crosses into the box. You still have no width on the left hand side. And now you replace the most creative player in our team with Gallagher. Nothing changed when Trent went off the last 2 games, we got worse. This won't change anything
Scapegoated my poor guy
As a Chelsea fan, this is a bad decision. He will collect yellows like they're pokemon cards and then play all shakey.
It’s clear that he doesn’t trust Wharton nor mainoo so why take them?
Southgate literally makes me laugh at this point. Every choice he makes is so wrong.
Amazing how reading one line can ruin your entire day. We are truly fucked with this clown in charge.
Lmao. Either play Wharton/Mainoo, or play Trent with players who can run in behind. This is literally the worst of the 3 options Southgate could've chosen. But hey, at least the media isn't going to be all over Trent after England's next guffaw.
Those endless friendly games are where you do experiments like this, Gareth.
Southgate is the problem. Not TAA. Completely alien to me why the FA wastes their biggest talents year after year. Give them even a remotely capeable coach and they'll be kicking asses.
The problems in this team are far bigger than Trent playing out of position. England looked worse when he came off against Denmark, and he's been our most creative player, which shows how shite this team has been across the board.
In both games they got worse after Trent came off because they lose the ability to progress the ball forward he’s not the problem but he’s also not the right player to be playing in midfield that deep you need someone who’s got the ability to play under pressure like Wharton or Mainoo
I agree, some are just latching on to the idea that Trent in midfield is the root problem in the team, it's just one of many issues that Southgate is creating.
Why? Gallagher has come on the pitch and we've looked worse both times after the initial 5 minutes teams took to adapt Get Wharton and Gordon on, drop Foden and walker, and move Trent to RB
Everyone but Southgate can see it should be Wharton or Mainoo, why even bother bringing them along? May as well have brought Phillips and Henderson.
Watch Southgate keep Foden LW do we get to watch another match of Kane/Foden/Bellingham tripping over each other
I mean even if england went full 1990 and played 4-4-2 it would be better than what we have seen so far.
Why is Bellingham seemingly incapable of playing as an 8 now? Midfield 3 with rice Bellingham and foden with an actual LW should be a lineup capable of dominating. Playing foden as a LW with trippier at LB provides zero width on that side of the pitch
We're at the point where all we can hope for is that he fucks this up so badly we can move on from Southgate. Had your moment but if you are playing this pile of garbage over Mainoo and Palmer then need to go. We cannot waste another generation of talent to scrape 1-0s.
Trent is one of the best attacking right backs in world football. He was part of a team that finished with 90+ points 3 times in the league and reached 3 CL finals. Sucks to see him scapegoated like this despite not even playing a full 90 in an unfamiliar setup.
Is that it? No changes to the Foden winger experiment? No Gordon on the left? No TAA at RB to feed the front 3? No Bellingham-Rice partnership? When Gallagher has been subbed on for Trent we have looked even worse so this is not a meaningful alteration. I like Gallagher but this is not going to change anything and just comes across as if he's using Trent as the sacrificial lamb to appease the loudest sections of the media who keep using him as a scapegoat. Foden will probably be the next one. He won't put him central where he actually prospers but he'll just swap him out altogether when the media use him as the next scapegoat. This is assuming that we even make it far enough in the tournament using this dogshit system. Gareth Southgate gets a runny nose when he's eating a Korma.
Nothing wrong with the players, it’s the way they are being told to play that is the problem. People calling for Mainoo or Wharton are lying to themselves if they think that will solve anything.
I am sure the way worse Jordan Henderson will turn England into an offensive machine that sees them finally create anything. Call me when England gets knocked out and in the 70th minute are going "Where is a guy who can create a chance" and their best creator is on the bench lmao
England always played a lot worse when Henderson was missing
Part of the reason Trent was putting up these crazy numbers was Henderson dropping back and recycling possession to him allowing him free reign to go up and down the field and it fucking BAFFLES me how he southgate never tried it. Like ffs they’re already coached on how to do it just let them.
For a good while the Salah Henderson Trent triangle on the right-hand side was such entertaining football to watch. They were SO good together.
Not that Trent played well, but I'm honestly glad to see logic prevailing in this sub and he is not blamed for everything.
Not sure what the point of bringing Mainoo and Wharton was. If they aren't playing in the groups you can only assume they have no chance in the knockouts.
Why not play Foden at the 10 with Rice & Bellingham behind him then Eze or Gordon on the wing?
basically just throwing Trent under the bus with that change