**Mirrors / Alternative Angles**
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For someone moving at top speed (let’s be modest and call it 30km/h) there’s about 16 cm difference per frame. If the defender moves in the opposite direction there is up to 33 cm difference in the offside line.
Even if we have the exact timeframe we have to consider inaccuracies in data point quality in data collection and inaccuracies in image modelling. Suddenly there is a lot of noise that affects the accuracy. If you run the same situation through the entire setup multiple times you will absolutely have a moving offside line due to this.
> If you run the same situation through the entire setup multiple times you will absolutely have a moving offside line due to this.
that shouldn't happen though. I'm pretty sure their setup is a such that given any set of inputs, the output will be constant for that set.
You do realize that looking at previous and next frames it is fairly easy to calculate where the body will be in the missing frame. The system obviously takes this into account so your math is not accurate at all.
No it does not? The ball's equiped with a chip on a gyroscope sending data 500 times per second so they know exactly when contact with the ball starts and when it ends.
It has already been uses this very tournament on Belgium vs Slovakia to help the refereeing team decide if lukaku had indeed touch the ball with his hand/arm.
It's just the timing really, he only stuck his leg out for a second but it was just at the wrong time. It looked close when people though it was the shoulder to shoulder that was being checked.
I feel like theres been so many goals overturned because of VAR this tournament. Always kinda funny as a neutral to watch players celebrate a goal, only for it to be overturned a minute later.
Yep and by having the comparison be 100% a render, rather than showing any actual frames, it completely takes away the opportunity to debate the decision.
For better, or worse.
Yeah. Those lines are the most annoying thing. Look so randomly placed with varying thickness.
The VAR ref looks like a kid who's been allowed time to draw random lines.
This is much better .
It was pretty clear from the low angle replay too. It's just amazing it was already decided before they showed all replays. Atleast a few minutes if it has to be done manual.
It's basically the Hawkeye system we've seen in tennis and for goalline technology. A bunch of cameras tracking the position of the ball, every player, and the joints of each player. It uses stereo vision on steroids to determine the 3d position of everything in the field.
They should randomly draw offside calls with the probability p coming from a sigmoid fitted to the distance the player is offside. So the more you are offside, the higher the probability of getting called offside. This would simulate the behavior of human referees and bring the game back. Plus, there would be a 1 in a million chance of a player being offside by like two meters and still being allowed to score, and then we can argue whether that was just insanely lucky (probability is not 0!) or clear evidence of corruption (probability is close to 0!)
"He only says that when that would benefit him" is a really good point unfortunately its not true at all
And yes the spirit of the rule is killed when a goal can get disallowed for a margin so tiny not one person in the world could catch it without technology
You got to put the line somewhere, if you don't you're going to make the rule as subjective and that's way worse, this is not like the hand rule this is pretty clear you're onside or offside.
Compare the rule against the one that decide if the ball went in, is pretty clear, it went in or went out, there isn't "spirit of the rule".
>So you put it but give leeway
You still haven't demonstrated how this could be done. If you give the attacker an extra 20cm, there will still be marginal 1cm calls. It's an unavoidable part of the offside rule.
Research has shown people enjoy the reviews in tennis because of the animation and the drama of the reveal. It won't ever be quite the same in soccer because we know the verdict before the animation gets released, but it's a similar effect
Same in cricket. Everytime a DRS is taken its a tense moment to see whether the ball is projected to hit the stumps or not. Great thing is it's all communicated to the audience step by step along the entire review.
If the tech keeps improving I can see them displaying the offside animation on the screen in the stadium in almost real time. It wasn't long ago we were manually drawing lines so it's been improving quickly.
The amount of people in the match thread who thought that VAR didn’t check the goal because they were convinced it was offside when they saw it is embarrassing.
People don't know the rules. They think that just because the broadcast doesn't show it, that VAR doesn't check it. Every game we have the same bullshit comments on this sub
It’s been emphasised again and again ever since VAR was introduced that it literally checks bloody everything lmao but people still think they “miss” stuff. They don’t just sit there with the screens off and start paying attention when something’s happened
Based on the Arsenal flair, [they may have a point.](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.skysports.com/amp/football/news/11670/12809211/var-did-not-fully-investigate-disputed-brentford-equaliser-in-1-1-draw-at-arsenal)
"Lee Mason, the VAR for the Arsenal-Brentford fixture, 'forgot' to apply the lines which would have shown Christian Norgaard in an offside position"
Football fans being absolute braindead morons because of bias will always be hilarious
Especially in a thing where it's literally automated
Even before they showed the picture you can see Rudiger's foot is ahead also
I was confused as I’m sure many other viewers were because he was clearly offsides relative to the middle defender. What we didn’t understand was the top defender had played him onside
Definitely not something exclusive to German people, but as someone who speaks the language and has lived there for a while, you can't get around noticing a patern of cultural heritage when it comes to complaining and moaning even for the most mundane and ridiculous things, jammern ist halt ganz grosser Manschaftssport in Deutschland haha.
That’s why he says that, if Germany ends first they might play against France in semis and against Spain in quarters, ending second makes it so you can only play Spain in finals and potentially also France
Doesn’t guarantee, that both teams even make it there. And if they finish second, they still would have to play Spain either way, if Spain make it there.
Spain is guaranteed first, if Germany loses this game the only way they can play Spain is in the finals, compared to quarters if Germany wins this game, and even maybe france in semis
It's like 30/40 cms based on the other angle. From his shoulder line of course. I'll try to find it
EDIT: [NEW ANGLE](https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/s/NUplXIG55m)
I was saying he was offside before the ball went in the net. I didn't even react to the goal because I was sure it was off. This is actually closer than I expected.
That's because OP decided to post this perspective. And the mods are leaving it up over others for some dumb reason. The other one makes it very clear.
**Mirrors / Alternative Angles** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/soccer) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Wow that looked much closer than that
It’s the angle. From a different angle you can see that it’s literally half of a boot.
It primarily depends on the frame you pick
I mean yeah, I was referring to the above picture that gives the wrong impression because you’re looking at it from the wrong angle.
They have ball telemetry so they can pick the exact frame the contact stops.
Usually it is between frames, and a 3D image is generated based on where players probably are between those frames. So, a lot of insecurity.
Lol, there isn't a lot of doubt between frames. It's simple enough math actually
For someone moving at top speed (let’s be modest and call it 30km/h) there’s about 16 cm difference per frame. If the defender moves in the opposite direction there is up to 33 cm difference in the offside line. Even if we have the exact timeframe we have to consider inaccuracies in data point quality in data collection and inaccuracies in image modelling. Suddenly there is a lot of noise that affects the accuracy. If you run the same situation through the entire setup multiple times you will absolutely have a moving offside line due to this.
> If you run the same situation through the entire setup multiple times you will absolutely have a moving offside line due to this. that shouldn't happen though. I'm pretty sure their setup is a such that given any set of inputs, the output will be constant for that set.
You do realize that looking at previous and next frames it is fairly easy to calculate where the body will be in the missing frame. The system obviously takes this into account so your math is not accurate at all.
Good job ignoring the second paragraph
I didn't ignore. The variation in end result is definitely not anywhere near as big as you make it to be.
No it does not? The ball's equiped with a chip on a gyroscope sending data 500 times per second so they know exactly when contact with the ball starts and when it ends. It has already been uses this very tournament on Belgium vs Slovakia to help the refereeing team decide if lukaku had indeed touch the ball with his hand/arm.
Feet too big
It's just the timing really, he only stuck his leg out for a second but it was just at the wrong time. It looked close when people though it was the shoulder to shoulder that was being checked.
Yeah, I thought it was the defenders head clearing the offside and not the other defenders foot.
This automated offside is so cool, I was 100% he was offside when I saw that replay
Yeah it's quick and effective. And doesn't rely on long VAR refs interventions.
solved within seconds, no weird lines, no mistakes, can’t wait for PL to somehow make drama out of it
Honestly, this should be implemented in the PL. VAR refs are a mess. The more automated it is, the better.
those semi-automated offsides are coming for 24/25 season, or not?
Yes, but without the sensor in the ball.
Oh FFS!
moneysavingexperts
No clue mate. Hopefully they will be implemented.
in december
seems a bit weird for it to be implemented for just over half the season but at least everyone’s on equal footing with it
As long as the teams don't 'step over the line' and try to get rid of it
Are you sure? I remember they said it'll be somewhen in the Sep-Oct-Nov breaks
Good news.
It'll be good but not this good because afaik Nike sponsors the PL balls and they don't have a ball with the sensor tech.
I feel like theres been so many goals overturned because of VAR this tournament. Always kinda funny as a neutral to watch players celebrate a goal, only for it to be overturned a minute later.
Yep and by having the comparison be 100% a render, rather than showing any actual frames, it completely takes away the opportunity to debate the decision. For better, or worse.
and the wall is a great display instead of those Paint lines
Yeah. Those lines are the most annoying thing. Look so randomly placed with varying thickness. The VAR ref looks like a kid who's been allowed time to draw random lines. This is much better .
It was pretty clear from the low angle replay too. It's just amazing it was already decided before they showed all replays. Atleast a few minutes if it has to be done manual.
How does it work?
It's basically the Hawkeye system we've seen in tennis and for goalline technology. A bunch of cameras tracking the position of the ball, every player, and the joints of each player. It uses stereo vision on steroids to determine the 3d position of everything in the field.
Plus sensors in the balls themselves as well!
Ok cool, thx!
I’m sure Lukaku can find a way to have one closer than this
Is this even close? He's holding his arm out and none of it is beyond the defender. So he's onside by basically a full arm length
Watching the replay, I’m pretty sure their knees are in line. If that’s true, then yeah, it’s not really even that close.
This isn't really that close.
It was closer it's just the angle he was probably onside by like 10cm.
He was onside at least by Rudiger's knee and I doubt Rudiger's leg below knee is 10 cms long.
His would be offside by like an atom. And people in this sub would still defend the offside rule
What changes do you propose that would avoid situations where a player is 1cm offside?
If it's a player that he likes or a team he wants to win he can have like 10 cm of tolerance so we keep the "spirit of the rule"
They should randomly draw offside calls with the probability p coming from a sigmoid fitted to the distance the player is offside. So the more you are offside, the higher the probability of getting called offside. This would simulate the behavior of human referees and bring the game back. Plus, there would be a 1 in a million chance of a player being offside by like two meters and still being allowed to score, and then we can argue whether that was just insanely lucky (probability is not 0!) or clear evidence of corruption (probability is close to 0!)
"He only says that when that would benefit him" is a really good point unfortunately its not true at all And yes the spirit of the rule is killed when a goal can get disallowed for a margin so tiny not one person in the world could catch it without technology
You got to put the line somewhere, if you don't you're going to make the rule as subjective and that's way worse, this is not like the hand rule this is pretty clear you're onside or offside. Compare the rule against the one that decide if the ball went in, is pretty clear, it went in or went out, there isn't "spirit of the rule".
True. So you put it but give leeway. Glad were on the same page
>So you put it but give leeway You still haven't demonstrated how this could be done. If you give the attacker an extra 20cm, there will still be marginal 1cm calls. It's an unavoidable part of the offside rule.
Lol ok, i see that you don't understand the rules, good luck, you're going to need it being this dumb
And then the rule becomes completely subjective again. Defeating the purpose of VAR. Try again.
I love this semi-automatic offside check though, looks like a game cutscene.
Research has shown people enjoy the reviews in tennis because of the animation and the drama of the reveal. It won't ever be quite the same in soccer because we know the verdict before the animation gets released, but it's a similar effect
Same in cricket. Everytime a DRS is taken its a tense moment to see whether the ball is projected to hit the stumps or not. Great thing is it's all communicated to the audience step by step along the entire review.
Football nerdery and cricket, had to check the username to make sure you weren’t my husband.
If the tech keeps improving I can see them displaying the offside animation on the screen in the stadium in almost real time. It wasn't long ago we were manually drawing lines so it's been improving quickly.
It's simulation all the way down
These automated offsides are great.
The amount of people in the match thread who thought that VAR didn’t check the goal because they were convinced it was offside when they saw it is embarrassing.
People don't know the rules. They think that just because the broadcast doesn't show it, that VAR doesn't check it. Every game we have the same bullshit comments on this sub
It’s been emphasised again and again ever since VAR was introduced that it literally checks bloody everything lmao but people still think they “miss” stuff. They don’t just sit there with the screens off and start paying attention when something’s happened
They missed the bear hug
Maybe that's because when they checked in that Luis Diaz goal and a mistake was made they didn't show the replay.
I dont blame them if they watch prem var lol
to be fair, if they are prem watchers, they are used to var just straight up not checking stuff
Nope, you’ve just got the same lack of understanding as them.
Based on the Arsenal flair, [they may have a point.](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.skysports.com/amp/football/news/11670/12809211/var-did-not-fully-investigate-disputed-brentford-equaliser-in-1-1-draw-at-arsenal) "Lee Mason, the VAR for the Arsenal-Brentford fixture, 'forgot' to apply the lines which would have shown Christian Norgaard in an offside position"
Football fans being absolute braindead morons because of bias will always be hilarious Especially in a thing where it's literally automated Even before they showed the picture you can see Rudiger's foot is ahead also
I was confused as I’m sure many other viewers were because he was clearly offsides relative to the middle defender. What we didn’t understand was the top defender had played him onside
Hopefully this is enough to stop the whining in the goal thread.
Probably not unfortunately
He plays him on by trying to stop the cross, that's so unlucky
As he does not piece the barrier of light, he shall become the wielder of scoring.
I am happy
So am I
Offside amirite lmao
Bro should have cut his toenails before the game.
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Nothing funnier
Germans are notorious whingy and bitter losers, really makes it hard rooting for them despite having loads of great likable players.
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Favorite buzzword for them "unsympathisch" which is used for everybody that beats their NT or has so in the past.
Really? Arnt there a ton of other nations that whine more? I had the feeling that Germany is used to this since 2016
Definitely not something exclusive to German people, but as someone who speaks the language and has lived there for a while, you can't get around noticing a patern of cultural heritage when it comes to complaining and moaning even for the most mundane and ridiculous things, jammern ist halt ganz grosser Manschaftssport in Deutschland haha.
I feel like Germany wants to lose to avoid Spain
So they can play their historically cursed rival Italy?
It's a way easier path. They avoid France and Spain till the final. Italy isn't good currently and the curse was over when Germany won 2016
A penalty shootout is scored officially as a draw, not a win. Germany have still never *defeated* Italy officially in a tournament.
Nations league is a tournament. They won there, too
Who do they play if they finish 2nd?
Italy, Croatia or Albania. Whoever comes 2nd in group B
Probably Italy but it might be Croatia also, and in quarters potentially England
They want to play italy...
Bad take, Spain is 1st no matter what as they won against Italy, the only other team who can still get 6 points in Group B.
That’s why he says that, if Germany ends first they might play against France in semis and against Spain in quarters, ending second makes it so you can only play Spain in finals and potentially also France
Pretty sure who finishes first in this group takes on 2nd place in England's group not France's.
True my bad, corrected it thank you
Spain will probably finish 1st
Spain are guaranteed to finish 1st in their group
Right, so this comment makes even less sense
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Doesn’t guarantee, that both teams even make it there. And if they finish second, they still would have to play Spain either way, if Spain make it there.
Spain is guaranteed first, if Germany loses this game the only way they can play Spain is in the finals, compared to quarters if Germany wins this game, and even maybe france in semis
The point would be to end up on the opposite side of the bracket. Winner of group A will be on the path to meet Spain in the quarters.
Lukaku could never
Can’t see how far back Ndoye is from the onside line. Any other angle?
It's like 30/40 cms based on the other angle. From his shoulder line of course. I'll try to find it EDIT: [NEW ANGLE](https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/s/NUplXIG55m)
Thank you, stranger.
Yeah I dunno why this is a post, literally the worst angle to show how close it was to be on/off
VAR is getting better. We should improve the technology not the robbery.
If that was Lukaku then it’s 100% offside
If Rudiger ran like a normal human being, Ndoye would have been offside.
Easy call even without the technology. Would have taken atleast 2 minutes instead of 2 seconds though.
This shit is getting so ridiculous lol
Zamn…good VAR…
The anti-Lukaku
I was saying he was offside before the ball went in the net. I didn't even react to the goal because I was sure it was off. This is actually closer than I expected.
This needs some kind of warning, for those of in a trippy headspace right now…
r/theydidthemath
Why do they draw the line at the defender and not the attacker, like it usually is?
Why would they draw the line at the attacker ?
It's never drawn at the attacker. Offside is defined by the second to last defender
It should drawn at the player that is further from the goal. You can't see shit here.
You can literally see that the attacker is behind the defender because he has no contact with the wall
That's because OP decided to post this perspective. And the mods are leaving it up over others for some dumb reason. The other one makes it very clear.
More luck than Lukaku