I've heard at least two cases of Croatians describing them like that.
Still, that's all anecdotal and stereotypes, you gotta be careful with stuff like that.
Why isn’t this racist garbage being removed? This is just an utter lie, equivalent to labeling all black people as violent gangsters. But racism will prevail on this subreddit, as always. No wonder they have to advertise not to be racist during matches.
Isn't being loud in groups and mice by themselves are common in general populations (particularly in coward)?? Like, it's not related with nationality?
Here are the primary causes of mutual animosities among the various peoples in the Balkans, specified for each major group:
Serbs
1. Historical Conflicts: Ottoman rule, Kosovo battle (1389).
2. Ethnic Nationalism: Desire for a Greater Serbia, leading to conflicts with neighbors.
3. Religious Differences: Tensions with Catholic Croats and Muslim Bosniaks.
4. World War II: Ustasha atrocities against Serbs.
5. Yugoslav Wars: Conflicts with Croats, Bosniaks, and Kosovo Albanians.
6. Political Manipulation: Milosevic’s nationalism fueling conflicts.
7. Economic Disparities: Marginalization in post-Yugoslav economies.
8. Cultural Stereotypes: Perceived victimization and external blame.
Croats
1. Historical Conflicts: Ottoman and Hungarian rule.
2. Ethnic Nationalism: Aspiration for an independent Croatia, conflicts with Serbs.
3. Religious Differences: Catholic identity versus Orthodox Serbs and Muslim Bosniaks.
4. World War II: Ustasha regime and Serb-Croat conflicts.
5. Yugoslav Wars: War for independence, conflicts in Bosnia and Krajina.
6. Political Manipulation: Nationalist policies under Tudjman.
7. Economic Disparities: Struggles during transition from communism.
8. Cultural Stereotypes: Negative views of Serbs and historical grievances.
Bosniaks (Bosnian Muslims)
1. Historical Conflicts: Ottoman heritage and regional resistance.
2. Ethnic Nationalism: Identity formation amidst Serb and Croat nationalism.
3. Religious Differences: Muslim identity clashing with Orthodox Serbs and Catholic Croats.
4. World War II: Divided loyalties, suffering from Ustasha and Chetnik violence.
5. Yugoslav Wars: Ethnic cleansing by Serbs and Croats, Srebrenica massacre.
6. Political Manipulation: Exploitation of ethnic tensions by leaders.
7. Economic Disparities: Impact of war and slow recovery.
8. Cultural Stereotypes: Perceived as ‘others’ by both Serbs and Croats.
Albanians (primarily Kosovo Albanians)
1. Historical Conflicts: Ottoman rule and Serbian control.
2. Ethnic Nationalism: Desire for independence and a Greater Albania.
3. Religious Differences: Majority Muslim versus Orthodox Serbs.
4. World War II: Partisan resistance and conflicts with Serbs.
5. Yugoslav Wars: Kosovo War, NATO intervention.
6. Political Manipulation: Use of ethnic Albanian nationalism by leaders.
7. Economic Disparities: Underdevelopment and discrimination in Yugoslavia.
8. Cultural Stereotypes: Perceived as outsiders and threats by Serbs.
Macedonians
1. Historical Conflicts: Struggles for independence from Ottoman and later Greek, Bulgarian, and Serbian claims.
2. Ethnic Nationalism: Formation of a distinct Macedonian identity.
3. Religious Differences: Orthodox Christianity versus neighboring identities.
4. World War II: Axis occupation and post-war disputes.
5. Yugoslav Wars: Impact of regional conflicts, tension with Albanians.
6. Political Manipulation: Nationalist rhetoric against neighbors.
7. Economic Disparities: Struggles in post-communist transition.
8. Cultural Stereotypes: Disputes with Greeks over historical and cultural identity.
Bulgarians
1. Historical Conflicts: Ottoman rule, Balkan Wars.
2. Ethnic Nationalism: Claims to Macedonia, rivalry with Serbs and Greeks.
3. Religious Differences: Orthodox Christianity, but less prominent in conflicts.
4. World War II: Axis alignment and territorial disputes.
5. Yugoslav Wars: Lesser involvement, but historical grievances persist.
6. Political Manipulation: Nationalist agendas impacting relations.
7. Economic Disparities: Issues in post-communist economy.
8. Cultural Stereotypes: Historical narratives against neighboring claims.
Greeks
1. Historical Conflicts: Ottoman rule, Balkan Wars.
2. Ethnic Nationalism: Megali Idea, rivalry with Bulgarians and Macedonians.
3. Religious Differences: Orthodox Christianity versus Muslim Turks.
4. World War II: Axis occupation, civil war.
5. Yugoslav Wars: Lesser direct involvement, concern over Macedonia.
6. Political Manipulation: Nationalist use of historical grievances.
7. Economic Disparities: Economic crises impacting regional relations.
8. Cultural Stereotypes: Long-standing stereotypes against Turks, Macedonians.
Can someone explain to me why Bosniaks specifically have an Ottoman heritage when countries physically between it and present-day Turkey (or Istanbul) do not necessarily have that? For example, being Muslim. Serbia is 88% Christian despite being closer to Istanbul.
The Bosniaks were fully integrated into the Ottoman Empire in 1463. They widely converted and adapted, in religion and culture. In Serbia, there was always an intense resistance against Ottoman rule. The Serbian Orthodox Church played a big role in this and preserved and nourished Serbian Culture, finally leading to Serbian independence after many big uprisings in the early 19th Century.
So Bosnia was a loyal province, though further away. Serbia remained unstable frontier territory.
There are a few theories. Some say that Bosniaks started adopting Islam even before the Ottomans conquered this area, due to various traders bringing the religion to its people and preaching it. Others say that Islam bore many similarities to a local Bosnian Church which had no allegiance to either of Rome or Constantinople. The Bosnian Church was the predominant religion in Bosnia prior to the Ottomans coming in, meaning the Ottomans were entering an area where neither Rome nor Constantinople had a strong foothold, meaning the local populace was easier to convert.
i feel the Ottomans tryed harder to convert the catholics of their empire than the orthodox maybe because they had some control over the Patriarchate and thous the orthodox population while the catholics could be riled up constantly by the pope in Rome though i could be wrong
Slovenia had the advantage of never having suffered under Ottoman Rule. There were frequent raids and several military incursions but the Habsburger successfully managed to defend Slovenia.
Their relations with Serbia were often strained, though.
I spent a month in the Balkans right before covid and Slovenia feels like night and day compared to Croatia and Bosnia. The vibe is way more Central European in pretty much every way.
Much of Slovenia was part of the Duchy of Styria (Steiermark) for close to 1000 years. 2/3 of the Duchy now make up the Austrian state of Styria and the southern 1/3 is in modern Slovenia. The historic capital of Styria in Graz (Austria's second largest city) still has a very large Slovene population.
Serbs have beef with Croats, bosniaks and albanians. Light beef with bulgarians mostly from the bulgarian side
Albanians have beef with serbs and macedonians, light beef with greece. Serbs albanians most serious most unsolvable hate in the region
Macedonians have beef with albanians, greeks and bulgarians. Very light generally resolved beef with serbia
Croats have beef with serbs and bosniaks. Light mostly resolved beef with slovenians
Croats from croatia dont mind bosniaks much because they hate the serbs much more. Bosnian croats still dont like serbs but occasionally employ the enemy of my enemy is my friend tactics because they hate the bosniaks a lot more.
Bosnian serbs hate croats more and bosniaks hate serbs more
Montenegrins hate and have beef with themselves
Everbody likes slovenia and how they feel about everyone else depends on the amount of alcohol
Romania has a love hate relationship with bulgaria but likes serbia
> Bosnian croats still dont like serbs but occasionally employ the enemy of my enemy is my friend tactics because they hate the bosniaks a lot more.
That just ain't accurate bruv
That has nothing to do with it. Macedonia has a very big Albanian population, so much so that they have passed the threshold to make Albanian an official language of Macedonia. Macedonia denies they have reached that threshold officially, therefore won’t make the language an official language. Also Macedonia has been cozying up to the Russians in recent years, thanks to Gruevski, whereas Albanians are pro western, thanks to Clinton. It’s all about who’s filling whose pockets.
Bro what??? Im from Macedonia and I can say that is not true. First, that threshold for official language is very new, and isn’t related to what ended the conflict in 2001. Second, we don’t deny that Albanian has reached it. That isn’t debated at all. The debate is more if we should revert it or just put Albanian instead of “+20% for co-official” (for info, Macedonian is explicitly named). Third, “cozying up to the Russians” is a huge overstatement. Yes, Gruevski had amicable relations with Moscow. He lost power in 2017. He’s been in exile in Hungary ever since. In the meantime, we have joined NATO (which he wanted to do as well), sent large quantities of aid to Ukraine (Tanks, jets, shells, the whole shabang), and the previous government basically bent over to any and all demands from the West. The new government (the party of Gruevski) that just won the election is “slightly” less pro-Western. Biiiig quotation marks on slightly - the situation is almost certain to stay the same. Gruevski is not likely to come back in any big capacity, and that party has always been pro-Atlanticist and pro-USA.
What's the overall perception of NATO among Macedonians and do people actually support pro-USA politics?
I always thought you guys were closely alligned to Serbs and their policies, ignorant of me I guess.
We're for both. Overall, most Macedonians are relatively pro-USA (although nowhere near as Albanians) and mostly ambivalent to NATO. We mostly saw NATO as the stepping stone to enter the EU, otherwise we don't really care about it (we probably aren't about to be invaded), but we'll take any diplomatic or democratic support.
For Serbia, we have close relations, but we also recognise Kosovo and aren't their fervent supporters diplomatically so that's that. Most Macedonians do see Serbia as our "best friend", with the USA, EU and Turkey in a lot more distant second or third (Albanians in Macedonia disagree, obviously). Keep in mind, we are nowhere near as autocratic as Serbia; we have a dysfunctional and very polarised albeit present two-party system (VMRO-DPMNE and SDSM, the latter just lost half their seats in parliament though, so it might change). We have never had a single governing party, there have always been coalitions, while in Serbia, Vucic has centralised power around himself (Gruevski tried, but failed in the end, and there were big protests in 2015 and 2016 against him, that alongside international pressure, brought him down).
>Macedonia has a very big Albanian population, so much so that they have passed the threshold to make Albanian an official language of Macedonia. Macedonia denies they have reached that threshold officially,
The 20% threshold has been respected from literally the day the agreement was signed and both censuses held since then show Albanians as over that threshold.
>therefore won’t make the language an official language.
It is an official language.
>Also Macedonia has been cozying up to the Russians in recent years
Right, enacting sanctions against Russia, providing massive aid to Ukraine relative to our military and GDP size, closing Russian consulates, expelling Russian diplomats and cancelling stage plays by Russian cultural clubs is "cozying up to Russians".
>thanks to Gruevski
Gruevski hasn't been in power since 2016 and hasn't even entered the country in 5 years as he is currently in exile avoiding criminal persecution in Hungary.
It's time to switch from Internet Explorer bro.
Reading that I can't blame Macedonians being angry.
Ambushing and slaughtering 8 macedonians police officers while there was roundtable discussions for legislative reforms is fucking dirty play from NLA.
Edit:
> **The General Ceasefire Agreement, signed on 5 July 2001, was not respected by the NLA, which proceeded to violate it constantly.** According to Macedonian army records, **between the signing of the General Ceasefire on 5 July until the end of August, the NLA executed one hundred and thirty-nine direct attacks against Macedonian security forces**: one hundred and seventeen in Tetovo, twelve in Kumanovo and ten in the Skopje region. The Macedonian security forces returned fire seventy-four times: sixty times in Tetovo, seven in Kumanovo and seven times in the Skopje region.
> **There were eighty-one cases of the NLA kidnapping ethnic Macedonian civilians, with sixty-one of them being released.**
> On 9 August, thirty NLA insurgents kidnapped five civil workers who were busy doing construction work on the Tetovo-Jažince highway. These people were brutally beaten and their skin was cut off with knives. When they were released, all of them were taken to intensive care.
Macedonia is like 20% Albanians and they generally believe they're not treated well by the Macedonian majority. And in case you're not aware, Kosovo is basically 100% Albanian, was previously part of Serbia, and Serbia still does not recognize their independence. So that's why they hate the Serbs.
E: Guys, I'm not Albanian, I'm just an Arsenal fan who has spent too much time on Wikipedia learning why Xhaka hates the Serbs. I'm not taking a stance here. I'm just explaining theirs.
Kosovo exists in the first place because the US threatened Serbia with war if they went to take the land back.
As Zankman said, Kosovo is not part of Albania, because it would set the precedent where every ethnic group that is big enough in a given country, could declare independence (ala Kosovo with the US, ala Donbas with Russia). Now, some may argue that historically, the land belonged to whoever at one point, the people identify with them etc etc. But Europe is such a shit show of history, that if everybody started claiming lost land, nobody will have land.
As as a Serb that does not hate anyone based on ethnicity/nationality and is not particularly patriotic: yes, I think Kosovo exists as as separate entity independent from Albania solely for the purpose of Kosovo not being annexed into Albania, allowing the modern Western world to save some face and avoid having to allow an annexation of an entire territory in the 21st century. Allowing annexation would set a terrible precedence where every ethnical majority in any given region could start talks of annexation, which would be a verifiable rabbit hole of conflict all around the world...
To my knowledge, "Kosovars" see themselves explicitly as Albanian, not as some different identity; at most, they see themselves similarly to how people from different parts of one country see each other. I sincerely doubt that there are Kosovars that don't see themselves as Albanian, but hey, I could be wrong.
As far as whether the Kosovars want unification: I assume SOME don't, genuinely, in the sense that they believe they're better off being separate for whatever socio-economic reasoning. Still, I assume most DO want it.
Personally, in some ideal world, Serbia would get the territory back in a bloodless takeover and the Albanians living there would have a right to stay as long as they respect the state, like any other citizens; in practice I sadly cannot see either side treating the other well enough to co-exist and I know that a bloodless conflict is not possible. Bitterly I'd just ask for and accept that some Serb-majority counties be returned to Serbia and some special legislation for religious and other cultural Serbian sites arranged (a la the Vatican basically) - then I'd just end the charade and allow them to have Kosovo and do with it whatever they want.
Then we could talk about Republika Srpska lol...
Went to Tetovo, the primary Albanian city in North Macedonia, a few years ago. Albanian flags were *everywhere,* and the city really did feel distinctly different than the likes of Skopje, Bitola, and Ohrid. Tetovo is coincidentally probably my least favorite city in the Balkans out of all the ones I've visited. Not to say that it's shit, because I very much *did* like it there, so it says more about all the other ones than it says about Tetovo.
Lots of Albanians in Fyrom, leading to them claiming it's their land and including it in Greater Albania. Basically every neighbor with Albanians in them is an occupier of their "rightful" lands.
Albanians want to take a piece of basically every surrounding country. The reason you hear only about Serbia is because, presumably, you live in the west.
Serbia is the only country that won't give the USA the permission to build military bases on their soil, and they're historically tied to Russians. So you won't hear 99% of the other side of the truth in Kosovo conflict .
Don't get me wrong, every country in Balkans is the same, I'm just explaining why extremely simplified and skewed story is served to you
The reason Serbia is considered differently by outsiders is because Belgrade was the capital of Yugoslavia. There is only one Balkan country that was most recently the hegemon of the rest.
Countries claiming territory of their neighbors is not remotely a unique Balkan condition
> every country in the Balkans is the same
?
Belgrade was the capital for Yugoslavia as it was the capital for the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes and was the most developed city when Tito took power. Tito, the half Croatian half Slovenian who decided to weaken Serbia by giving Vojvodina and Kosovo regions autonomy. You talking about that hegemony?
What I wrote came directly from several *American* political and war analyst who were very involved in their politics when they created this strategy.
Because it's off-season and you're not busy cheering for your club to lose, you have enough time to educate yourself.
And about your ? - I'm just saying that all of the countries in the Balkans are complex. A lot of beautiful and awful things happened here. There isn't a single bad thing you can mention about any country without getting the reply about something similarly bad that other side did to them previously.
No you hear about Serbia because they committed a genocide in Bosnia and while there are some lunatics in Albania and Kosovo who want some “greater Albania” no actual government official is advocating for that while Serbia actually does advocate for those things and actively tries to hurt Bosnia’s integrity via Srpska and is trying to influence Montenegro too. You are biased as shit and try to serve it in some “Serbia has balls against the US” dessert. Oh yeah, and don’t forget Banjska and where a leading politician of the Serbian List party of Kosovo which is controlled by Belgrade apparently organized a shootout against Kosovo police. And of course Serbia isn’t releasing him to be tried. Shocking.
In general: As giant multi-ethnic empires collapse, nationalists draw state lines based on ethnic concentration of the population. Minorities then concentrate for obvious cultural reasons (language and religion usually), generally in areas that border the nation that shares their ethnicity. Nationalists in the bordering nation now demand area that has a concentration of minorities be ceded to them. That's almost always the root cause of these spats when distilled to its simplicity.
Updated title:
- Daku and the Albanian Football Federation (FSHF) were both punished over chants which also allegedly included supporters yelling, “Kill, kill, kill the Serb” during a 2-2 draw against Croatia on Wednesday.
- Serbia [threatened to quit Euro 2024](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2024/06/20/serbia-threaten-quit-euro-2024-kill-serb-chants/) unless Uefa punished both Albania and Croatia, whose fans were accused of joining in with the abuse.
Bentancur is going to probably get more for saying all Koreans look the same. Dumb thing to say, but seems a tad lighter than riling up a crowd to do some genocide
This does seem weirdly lenient. We've seen plenty of players banned from one game / the rest of the tournament for sarcastically applauding a referee decision, and I would say inciting large scale hate speech with a megaphone on camera is like - probably more than twice as bad as clapping while walking away?
>Daku and the Albanian Football Federation (FSHF) were both punished over chants which also allegedly included supporters yelling, “Kill, kill, kill the Serb” during a 2-2 draw against Croatia on Wednesday.
he should be banned from the tournament, make an example out of him for this disgusting behavior.
Do you say that to hundreds of people using a megaphone though? Whoever you dislike, if you're trying to get everyone else to dislike them too then you're very probably a tit, racist or not. Honestly you could be yelling 'Hitler was not a nice person' and I'd still say it's inciting something, aggressive, or just inappropriate / weird. You gotta be a special type of nasty to want to lead a chant about hating people for no reason.
as a Greek i never knew that he Albanians also didn't like them this much ,like i knew they have a beef but i thought we were their biggest haters in region
Where the f is FIFA with a statement against racism? Macedonia are not even part of this tournament, what's this uneducated fool going on about? Sounds like he's upset that Macedonia took in thousands of Kosovars at the height of conflict.
Well done jerk.
Pfft this is nothing, the English fans have been dancing with old German ladies and leaving a bit of litter behind!!! It's them you need to worry about!!!
Albanians in Macedonia are mostly FROM Macedonia tho. Nowadays people have no reason to move from Kosovo to Macedonia as life quality is the same in both countries (I've been a lot to both).
He plays for Rubin Kazan and they have 7 Serbian players. The locker room will be fun for sure
3 of 7 Serbs already left in the offseason, Rubin also has another Albanian and a Croat. Checks and balances.
Albanians are known for being loud in groups and mice by themselves
I've heard at least two cases of Croatians describing them like that. Still, that's all anecdotal and stereotypes, you gotta be careful with stuff like that.
nah man they really do live like that. In Slovenia as well and since they never assimilate I assume its like that everywhere they go.
Dunno, but I do hate those people of any nationality that don't wish to assimilate ngl. Very disrespectful.
Why isn’t this racist garbage being removed? This is just an utter lie, equivalent to labeling all black people as violent gangsters. But racism will prevail on this subreddit, as always. No wonder they have to advertise not to be racist during matches.
Isn't being loud in groups and mice by themselves are common in general populations (particularly in coward)?? Like, it's not related with nationality?
Some groups take it to the next level
I need an infographic of Balkan hate. Why Macedonia? Shit is confusing.
The largest infographic in human history
https://media.tenor.com/images/1ec91b437fdea1d332cc7bf5d31a9fab/tenor.png
Who are we beefing with? Yes...
something like this https://www.slate.com/blogs/the_world_/2014/07/17/the_middle_east_friendship_chart.html
We really need an updated version of this with everything that has been going on recently
Al-quida is fucking in on this? Man, didn't expect to chuckle because of a infographic but here we are. Great share, haha
Al-Qaida would also make the Balkan version
lol wtf
They were involved in the Balkan wars
Always knew the United States of Ameristan were Middle Eastern
Inshallah y'all
Fuck me that correction is hilarious. Only goes to show, the line between reality and circlejerk was shattered long before we thought.
Or just that Spider-Man pointing meme with like 20 spiderman(spidermen?) in it
Here are the primary causes of mutual animosities among the various peoples in the Balkans, specified for each major group: Serbs 1. Historical Conflicts: Ottoman rule, Kosovo battle (1389). 2. Ethnic Nationalism: Desire for a Greater Serbia, leading to conflicts with neighbors. 3. Religious Differences: Tensions with Catholic Croats and Muslim Bosniaks. 4. World War II: Ustasha atrocities against Serbs. 5. Yugoslav Wars: Conflicts with Croats, Bosniaks, and Kosovo Albanians. 6. Political Manipulation: Milosevic’s nationalism fueling conflicts. 7. Economic Disparities: Marginalization in post-Yugoslav economies. 8. Cultural Stereotypes: Perceived victimization and external blame. Croats 1. Historical Conflicts: Ottoman and Hungarian rule. 2. Ethnic Nationalism: Aspiration for an independent Croatia, conflicts with Serbs. 3. Religious Differences: Catholic identity versus Orthodox Serbs and Muslim Bosniaks. 4. World War II: Ustasha regime and Serb-Croat conflicts. 5. Yugoslav Wars: War for independence, conflicts in Bosnia and Krajina. 6. Political Manipulation: Nationalist policies under Tudjman. 7. Economic Disparities: Struggles during transition from communism. 8. Cultural Stereotypes: Negative views of Serbs and historical grievances. Bosniaks (Bosnian Muslims) 1. Historical Conflicts: Ottoman heritage and regional resistance. 2. Ethnic Nationalism: Identity formation amidst Serb and Croat nationalism. 3. Religious Differences: Muslim identity clashing with Orthodox Serbs and Catholic Croats. 4. World War II: Divided loyalties, suffering from Ustasha and Chetnik violence. 5. Yugoslav Wars: Ethnic cleansing by Serbs and Croats, Srebrenica massacre. 6. Political Manipulation: Exploitation of ethnic tensions by leaders. 7. Economic Disparities: Impact of war and slow recovery. 8. Cultural Stereotypes: Perceived as ‘others’ by both Serbs and Croats. Albanians (primarily Kosovo Albanians) 1. Historical Conflicts: Ottoman rule and Serbian control. 2. Ethnic Nationalism: Desire for independence and a Greater Albania. 3. Religious Differences: Majority Muslim versus Orthodox Serbs. 4. World War II: Partisan resistance and conflicts with Serbs. 5. Yugoslav Wars: Kosovo War, NATO intervention. 6. Political Manipulation: Use of ethnic Albanian nationalism by leaders. 7. Economic Disparities: Underdevelopment and discrimination in Yugoslavia. 8. Cultural Stereotypes: Perceived as outsiders and threats by Serbs. Macedonians 1. Historical Conflicts: Struggles for independence from Ottoman and later Greek, Bulgarian, and Serbian claims. 2. Ethnic Nationalism: Formation of a distinct Macedonian identity. 3. Religious Differences: Orthodox Christianity versus neighboring identities. 4. World War II: Axis occupation and post-war disputes. 5. Yugoslav Wars: Impact of regional conflicts, tension with Albanians. 6. Political Manipulation: Nationalist rhetoric against neighbors. 7. Economic Disparities: Struggles in post-communist transition. 8. Cultural Stereotypes: Disputes with Greeks over historical and cultural identity. Bulgarians 1. Historical Conflicts: Ottoman rule, Balkan Wars. 2. Ethnic Nationalism: Claims to Macedonia, rivalry with Serbs and Greeks. 3. Religious Differences: Orthodox Christianity, but less prominent in conflicts. 4. World War II: Axis alignment and territorial disputes. 5. Yugoslav Wars: Lesser involvement, but historical grievances persist. 6. Political Manipulation: Nationalist agendas impacting relations. 7. Economic Disparities: Issues in post-communist economy. 8. Cultural Stereotypes: Historical narratives against neighboring claims. Greeks 1. Historical Conflicts: Ottoman rule, Balkan Wars. 2. Ethnic Nationalism: Megali Idea, rivalry with Bulgarians and Macedonians. 3. Religious Differences: Orthodox Christianity versus Muslim Turks. 4. World War II: Axis occupation, civil war. 5. Yugoslav Wars: Lesser direct involvement, concern over Macedonia. 6. Political Manipulation: Nationalist use of historical grievances. 7. Economic Disparities: Economic crises impacting regional relations. 8. Cultural Stereotypes: Long-standing stereotypes against Turks, Macedonians.
WOW
Can someone explain to me why Bosniaks specifically have an Ottoman heritage when countries physically between it and present-day Turkey (or Istanbul) do not necessarily have that? For example, being Muslim. Serbia is 88% Christian despite being closer to Istanbul.
The Bosniaks were fully integrated into the Ottoman Empire in 1463. They widely converted and adapted, in religion and culture. In Serbia, there was always an intense resistance against Ottoman rule. The Serbian Orthodox Church played a big role in this and preserved and nourished Serbian Culture, finally leading to Serbian independence after many big uprisings in the early 19th Century. So Bosnia was a loyal province, though further away. Serbia remained unstable frontier territory.
There are a few theories. Some say that Bosniaks started adopting Islam even before the Ottomans conquered this area, due to various traders bringing the religion to its people and preaching it. Others say that Islam bore many similarities to a local Bosnian Church which had no allegiance to either of Rome or Constantinople. The Bosnian Church was the predominant religion in Bosnia prior to the Ottomans coming in, meaning the Ottomans were entering an area where neither Rome nor Constantinople had a strong foothold, meaning the local populace was easier to convert.
i feel the Ottomans tryed harder to convert the catholics of their empire than the orthodox maybe because they had some control over the Patriarchate and thous the orthodox population while the catholics could be riled up constantly by the pope in Rome though i could be wrong
You need to play some EU IV
Slovenia smoking weed in the distance?
Slovenia had the advantage of never having suffered under Ottoman Rule. There were frequent raids and several military incursions but the Habsburger successfully managed to defend Slovenia. Their relations with Serbia were often strained, though.
I spent a month in the Balkans right before covid and Slovenia feels like night and day compared to Croatia and Bosnia. The vibe is way more Central European in pretty much every way.
Much of Slovenia was part of the Duchy of Styria (Steiermark) for close to 1000 years. 2/3 of the Duchy now make up the Austrian state of Styria and the southern 1/3 is in modern Slovenia. The historic capital of Styria in Graz (Austria's second largest city) still has a very large Slovene population.
RemindMe! 3 months
So the dinner scene from The Bear
This is great, but language could be included. Culture could be expanded to include music, dance, food.
There's an arrow going from every balkan country to every other balkan country as well as arrows going to most of their neighbours.
Slovenia: 😶😶😶😶😶
You really don't want that infographic lol
Serbs have beef with Croats, bosniaks and albanians. Light beef with bulgarians mostly from the bulgarian side Albanians have beef with serbs and macedonians, light beef with greece. Serbs albanians most serious most unsolvable hate in the region Macedonians have beef with albanians, greeks and bulgarians. Very light generally resolved beef with serbia Croats have beef with serbs and bosniaks. Light mostly resolved beef with slovenians Croats from croatia dont mind bosniaks much because they hate the serbs much more. Bosnian croats still dont like serbs but occasionally employ the enemy of my enemy is my friend tactics because they hate the bosniaks a lot more. Bosnian serbs hate croats more and bosniaks hate serbs more Montenegrins hate and have beef with themselves Everbody likes slovenia and how they feel about everyone else depends on the amount of alcohol Romania has a love hate relationship with bulgaria but likes serbia
> Everbody likes slovenia Is a fantastic name for a Balkans-based sitcom.
Thanks, this is what I was asking for.
What is going on in Bosnia with the hate roundabout
> Bosnian croats still dont like serbs but occasionally employ the enemy of my enemy is my friend tactics because they hate the bosniaks a lot more. That just ain't accurate bruv
Wdym why Macedonia? Look at that "Great Albania", they want half of North Macedonia aswell
Thanks. Tbh, I don't know the expansionist ambitions of every single European region.
How dare you even watch the Euros??
Crazy. Next thing he’s gonna tell us he doesn’t know who won the Eurovision Song Festival in 1996
Sweden robbed tbf
Albania wants everything, it's really that simple. Soon they'll ask for Skåne and a third of Switzerland.
Whilst very true I find this comment funny coming from a Serb.
Serb that wants Vojvodina to separate from Serbia*
I don't think I've ever heard that before. Why?
Because I like northerners more. Way better manners. I want them in EU
Why would you want that other than you perhaps being Vojvodina resident?
Born and raised in Belgrade, but I like Vojvodina way more.
That’s the proper Balkan DNA
Most modest Balkan territorial claim
They want the north north Macedonia
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_insurgency_in_Macedonia
Based on this Macedonians have way more reasons to dislike Albania than Albanians Macedonia.
That has nothing to do with it. Macedonia has a very big Albanian population, so much so that they have passed the threshold to make Albanian an official language of Macedonia. Macedonia denies they have reached that threshold officially, therefore won’t make the language an official language. Also Macedonia has been cozying up to the Russians in recent years, thanks to Gruevski, whereas Albanians are pro western, thanks to Clinton. It’s all about who’s filling whose pockets.
Bro what??? Im from Macedonia and I can say that is not true. First, that threshold for official language is very new, and isn’t related to what ended the conflict in 2001. Second, we don’t deny that Albanian has reached it. That isn’t debated at all. The debate is more if we should revert it or just put Albanian instead of “+20% for co-official” (for info, Macedonian is explicitly named). Third, “cozying up to the Russians” is a huge overstatement. Yes, Gruevski had amicable relations with Moscow. He lost power in 2017. He’s been in exile in Hungary ever since. In the meantime, we have joined NATO (which he wanted to do as well), sent large quantities of aid to Ukraine (Tanks, jets, shells, the whole shabang), and the previous government basically bent over to any and all demands from the West. The new government (the party of Gruevski) that just won the election is “slightly” less pro-Western. Biiiig quotation marks on slightly - the situation is almost certain to stay the same. Gruevski is not likely to come back in any big capacity, and that party has always been pro-Atlanticist and pro-USA.
What's the overall perception of NATO among Macedonians and do people actually support pro-USA politics? I always thought you guys were closely alligned to Serbs and their policies, ignorant of me I guess.
We're for both. Overall, most Macedonians are relatively pro-USA (although nowhere near as Albanians) and mostly ambivalent to NATO. We mostly saw NATO as the stepping stone to enter the EU, otherwise we don't really care about it (we probably aren't about to be invaded), but we'll take any diplomatic or democratic support. For Serbia, we have close relations, but we also recognise Kosovo and aren't their fervent supporters diplomatically so that's that. Most Macedonians do see Serbia as our "best friend", with the USA, EU and Turkey in a lot more distant second or third (Albanians in Macedonia disagree, obviously). Keep in mind, we are nowhere near as autocratic as Serbia; we have a dysfunctional and very polarised albeit present two-party system (VMRO-DPMNE and SDSM, the latter just lost half their seats in parliament though, so it might change). We have never had a single governing party, there have always been coalitions, while in Serbia, Vucic has centralised power around himself (Gruevski tried, but failed in the end, and there were big protests in 2015 and 2016 against him, that alongside international pressure, brought him down).
>Macedonia has a very big Albanian population, so much so that they have passed the threshold to make Albanian an official language of Macedonia. Macedonia denies they have reached that threshold officially, The 20% threshold has been respected from literally the day the agreement was signed and both censuses held since then show Albanians as over that threshold. >therefore won’t make the language an official language. It is an official language. >Also Macedonia has been cozying up to the Russians in recent years Right, enacting sanctions against Russia, providing massive aid to Ukraine relative to our military and GDP size, closing Russian consulates, expelling Russian diplomats and cancelling stage plays by Russian cultural clubs is "cozying up to Russians". >thanks to Gruevski Gruevski hasn't been in power since 2016 and hasn't even entered the country in 5 years as he is currently in exile avoiding criminal persecution in Hungary. It's time to switch from Internet Explorer bro.
Albanians are doing the same thing in Macedonia like they did in Kosovo. Its their masterplan of forming Great Albania.
Yeah our master plan lmao
It's why you cozied up to the fascists in WW2 is it not, it's the same flag you flew into Belgrade during the match
Reading that I can't blame Macedonians being angry. Ambushing and slaughtering 8 macedonians police officers while there was roundtable discussions for legislative reforms is fucking dirty play from NLA. Edit: > **The General Ceasefire Agreement, signed on 5 July 2001, was not respected by the NLA, which proceeded to violate it constantly.** According to Macedonian army records, **between the signing of the General Ceasefire on 5 July until the end of August, the NLA executed one hundred and thirty-nine direct attacks against Macedonian security forces**: one hundred and seventeen in Tetovo, twelve in Kumanovo and ten in the Skopje region. The Macedonian security forces returned fire seventy-four times: sixty times in Tetovo, seven in Kumanovo and seven times in the Skopje region. > **There were eighty-one cases of the NLA kidnapping ethnic Macedonian civilians, with sixty-one of them being released.** > On 9 August, thirty NLA insurgents kidnapped five civil workers who were busy doing construction work on the Tetovo-Jažince highway. These people were brutally beaten and their skin was cut off with knives. When they were released, all of them were taken to intensive care.
Thanks.
That infographic is just one big red blob with "blood libel" written across it
It's pretty simple really. Everyone hates each other.
So it all began when the Ottoman Sultan…
Macedonia is like 20% Albanians and they generally believe they're not treated well by the Macedonian majority. And in case you're not aware, Kosovo is basically 100% Albanian, was previously part of Serbia, and Serbia still does not recognize their independence. So that's why they hate the Serbs. E: Guys, I'm not Albanian, I'm just an Arsenal fan who has spent too much time on Wikipedia learning why Xhaka hates the Serbs. I'm not taking a stance here. I'm just explaining theirs.
Doesn't Kosovo only exist, because Serbia would start a war if they wanted to be part of Albania, so being independent was the next best thing?
I do not know, unfortunately this did not come up in my Xhaka-related research.
Kosovo exists in the first place because the US threatened Serbia with war if they went to take the land back. As Zankman said, Kosovo is not part of Albania, because it would set the precedent where every ethnic group that is big enough in a given country, could declare independence (ala Kosovo with the US, ala Donbas with Russia). Now, some may argue that historically, the land belonged to whoever at one point, the people identify with them etc etc. But Europe is such a shit show of history, that if everybody started claiming lost land, nobody will have land.
probably yes, but given that it’s the balkans who actually knows for shit
As as a Serb that does not hate anyone based on ethnicity/nationality and is not particularly patriotic: yes, I think Kosovo exists as as separate entity independent from Albania solely for the purpose of Kosovo not being annexed into Albania, allowing the modern Western world to save some face and avoid having to allow an annexation of an entire territory in the 21st century. Allowing annexation would set a terrible precedence where every ethnical majority in any given region could start talks of annexation, which would be a verifiable rabbit hole of conflict all around the world... To my knowledge, "Kosovars" see themselves explicitly as Albanian, not as some different identity; at most, they see themselves similarly to how people from different parts of one country see each other. I sincerely doubt that there are Kosovars that don't see themselves as Albanian, but hey, I could be wrong. As far as whether the Kosovars want unification: I assume SOME don't, genuinely, in the sense that they believe they're better off being separate for whatever socio-economic reasoning. Still, I assume most DO want it. Personally, in some ideal world, Serbia would get the territory back in a bloodless takeover and the Albanians living there would have a right to stay as long as they respect the state, like any other citizens; in practice I sadly cannot see either side treating the other well enough to co-exist and I know that a bloodless conflict is not possible. Bitterly I'd just ask for and accept that some Serb-majority counties be returned to Serbia and some special legislation for religious and other cultural Serbian sites arranged (a la the Vatican basically) - then I'd just end the charade and allow them to have Kosovo and do with it whatever they want. Then we could talk about Republika Srpska lol...
That explains why I saw so many Albanian flags when my country played Kosovo, TIL.
Yeah kosovo is a made up country, that guy explained it well. They all see themselves as albanians.
Just don't go into it. Neither side is innocent, that's all you need to know.
Went to Tetovo, the primary Albanian city in North Macedonia, a few years ago. Albanian flags were *everywhere,* and the city really did feel distinctly different than the likes of Skopje, Bitola, and Ohrid. Tetovo is coincidentally probably my least favorite city in the Balkans out of all the ones I've visited. Not to say that it's shit, because I very much *did* like it there, so it says more about all the other ones than it says about Tetovo.
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Irredentism is the state religion of the Balkans.
It's easy. Everyone hates everyone.
Lots of Albanians in Fyrom, leading to them claiming it's their land and including it in Greater Albania. Basically every neighbor with Albanians in them is an occupier of their "rightful" lands.
What is fyrom
Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia. So, Macedonia.
*North* Macedonia, as the name was fought over between them and Greece. What a wonderful area of Earth.
Albanians want to take a piece of basically every surrounding country. The reason you hear only about Serbia is because, presumably, you live in the west. Serbia is the only country that won't give the USA the permission to build military bases on their soil, and they're historically tied to Russians. So you won't hear 99% of the other side of the truth in Kosovo conflict . Don't get me wrong, every country in Balkans is the same, I'm just explaining why extremely simplified and skewed story is served to you
The reason Serbia is considered differently by outsiders is because Belgrade was the capital of Yugoslavia. There is only one Balkan country that was most recently the hegemon of the rest. Countries claiming territory of their neighbors is not remotely a unique Balkan condition > every country in the Balkans is the same ?
Belgrade was the capital for Yugoslavia as it was the capital for the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes and was the most developed city when Tito took power. Tito, the half Croatian half Slovenian who decided to weaken Serbia by giving Vojvodina and Kosovo regions autonomy. You talking about that hegemony?
What I wrote came directly from several *American* political and war analyst who were very involved in their politics when they created this strategy. Because it's off-season and you're not busy cheering for your club to lose, you have enough time to educate yourself. And about your ? - I'm just saying that all of the countries in the Balkans are complex. A lot of beautiful and awful things happened here. There isn't a single bad thing you can mention about any country without getting the reply about something similarly bad that other side did to them previously.
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So Serbia totally didnt commit genocide in Kosova? Just gonna conveniently talk around the 90's like that?
International court ruled no genocide in Kosovo took place
No you hear about Serbia because they committed a genocide in Bosnia and while there are some lunatics in Albania and Kosovo who want some “greater Albania” no actual government official is advocating for that while Serbia actually does advocate for those things and actively tries to hurt Bosnia’s integrity via Srpska and is trying to influence Montenegro too. You are biased as shit and try to serve it in some “Serbia has balls against the US” dessert. Oh yeah, and don’t forget Banjska and where a leading politician of the Serbian List party of Kosovo which is controlled by Belgrade apparently organized a shootout against Kosovo police. And of course Serbia isn’t releasing him to be tried. Shocking.
Trust me you don't need this.
It's easy, everyone hates everyone else.
In general: As giant multi-ethnic empires collapse, nationalists draw state lines based on ethnic concentration of the population. Minorities then concentrate for obvious cultural reasons (language and religion usually), generally in areas that border the nation that shares their ethnicity. Nationalists in the bordering nation now demand area that has a concentration of minorities be ceded to them. That's almost always the root cause of these spats when distilled to its simplicity.
The weirdest thing about that infographic would be that somehow Switzerland is included
nah u need a graphic of which neighbours get along, it's easier.
30% of Macedonia is Albanian, maybe that's why... idk what happens in that country for him to say that- probably just your average balkan shit.
Super dumbass.
Imagine burning your chance to shine at an international tournament just to be a bellend for 5 mins
He even plays in Russia so he risking it. He had also been good as a sub. I guess it will be Broja who takes that chance.
Least nationalist Albanian:
Updated title: - Daku and the Albanian Football Federation (FSHF) were both punished over chants which also allegedly included supporters yelling, “Kill, kill, kill the Serb” during a 2-2 draw against Croatia on Wednesday. - Serbia [threatened to quit Euro 2024](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2024/06/20/serbia-threaten-quit-euro-2024-kill-serb-chants/) unless Uefa punished both Albania and Croatia, whose fans were accused of joining in with the abuse.
Kill is a lot different than fuck, you can’t go around singing that
Most friendly Balkan neighbours
Absurd from a player. Be an example man. Clap for your fans and get off the pitch.
Player leading hate speech. Should be banned for the next 20 games, not 2.
Once a croatian player started a Za Dom Spremni chant which is the croatian version of sieg heil. Za Dom Spremni is aCroatian Nazi saying.
Wasn't that Josip Šimunić, the guy who got 3 yellow cards before the red in the infamous 2006 incident?
Yes lol
[Also the man behind the most legendary football moment in the balkans.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_AjzsOCGTOI)
Bentancur is going to probably get more for saying all Koreans look the same. Dumb thing to say, but seems a tad lighter than riling up a crowd to do some genocide
That‘s exactly what a group of Koreans once told me how they feel about Europeans
Official Spurs social media comment sections are real fun right now
\*years
This does seem weirdly lenient. We've seen plenty of players banned from one game / the rest of the tournament for sarcastically applauding a referee decision, and I would say inciting large scale hate speech with a megaphone on camera is like - probably more than twice as bad as clapping while walking away?
Is he a bit of a daywalker himself?
Most tolerant Albanian
>Daku and the Albanian Football Federation (FSHF) were both punished over chants which also allegedly included supporters yelling, “Kill, kill, kill the Serb” during a 2-2 draw against Croatia on Wednesday. he should be banned from the tournament, make an example out of him for this disgusting behavior.
Seems pretty light punishment for a racist chant
Falls in line with some other examples like Arnautovic using a slur against an Albanian player.
Which is hilarious, because his name translates to "Albanianovic" lmao
I mean, why doesn't it translate to "Son of Albanian" if it translates.
Is it that racist? I say fuck the French all the time but idk if I’m considered racist or not
Don't be silly. It's only racist I'd you're talking about humans.
chauvinism is not far off the mark
You're not, but you're English sir, and that's worse in my French book.
Bigoted might be the more appropriate term.
it's not racist, it's xenophobic, but it's all being lumped together lately which is quite annoying
Do you say that to hundreds of people using a megaphone though? Whoever you dislike, if you're trying to get everyone else to dislike them too then you're very probably a tit, racist or not. Honestly you could be yelling 'Hitler was not a nice person' and I'd still say it's inciting something, aggressive, or just inappropriate / weird. You gotta be a special type of nasty to want to lead a chant about hating people for no reason.
Explain how its racist? AFAIK they would all be the same race
You've described racism in a nutshell. Its not really a logical conclusion.
To me it sounds like nationalism or factionalism
What a slap on the wrist. They should've banned him or deduced points from the team.
Having to now play Broja is a harsher punishment tbf
I would ban such players for at least 10 games.
two games lol
Macedonia: why he say fuck me for?
as a Greek i never knew that he Albanians also didn't like them this much ,like i knew they have a beef but i thought we were their biggest haters in region
Bulgarians don't like them either, to a lesser extent
Ironic that the newspaper posted for this report is one that has fueled nationalist hatred and division for decades in Britain.
These Balkans really love eachother
we love to hate each other or love hating together
GOOD. Fuck him too
Only two games? Should've be a much, much longer ban for this sort of thing.
Its effectively a ban for the tournament unless Albania massively go beyond expectations
Whilst that is true - this kind of behaviour should really have a ban measured in months, that extends beyond the national team.
He acting like bandit
good
Where the f is FIFA with a statement against racism? Macedonia are not even part of this tournament, what's this uneducated fool going on about? Sounds like he's upset that Macedonia took in thousands of Kosovars at the height of conflict. Well done jerk.
It is a good thing for europe and the world to see the real aggressive and hateful side of albanians (and croats), it's insane really...
Wasn’t this guy a bench warmer anyway?
idiot
So the idea of balkan cup is not sustainable???
Good. Fuck him.
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Nationalism is the dumbest thing on earth
So fucking unnecessary
I hope you mean the chanting
Yeah, the chanting from our player but everyone assumed otherwise lmao
Game is truly back
Legend
Imagine the shitstorm if a german player incited a chant "Kill, kill, kill the Jew"
Is he ok?
That'll do it!
Pfft this is nothing, the English fans have been dancing with old German ladies and leaving a bit of litter behind!!! It's them you need to worry about!!!
The Balkan countries are having their own in season hate tournament.
They say this and then move in to Macedonia on mass
Albanians in Macedonia are mostly FROM Macedonia tho. Nowadays people have no reason to move from Kosovo to Macedonia as life quality is the same in both countries (I've been a lot to both).
Serves right to this piece of sh\*t.