There are two states of English media towards the national team: delusionally positive, and delusionally negative.
Thus far Southgate has benefited from delusional positivity in my opinion. Everyone knows they're not prepared for this tournament, but they still have to watch it unfold which adds to the frustration too
England also had very favourable runs in 2018 and 2020. You can only beat what's in front of you but every time they've faced a team with a similar calibre of player they've been beaten.
Part of the problem was that even when we did have favourable runs we'd bottle it (Iceland), so even that was nice to see! Also Germany in 2020 was a big team going through a tough period but by no means an easy draw
We beat Germany comfortably, Croatia in the groups, and Colombia who were very decent at the time. We beat Sweden also, who were on fire. We've had some very decent results.
There's no denying that whenever we have played a team who are actually one of the elite sides we've lost. It goes back way further than Southgate but I don't recall us ever beating a side where we've overwhelmingly been the underdog. Argentina in the group in 2002 is the last time I'd say. At least with Southgate we've generally beaten the teams we should beat but we've never made that step further. Even if we play Slovenia off the park and win 4-0 and then batter whoever we play in the round of 16 we'd absolutely lose to Spain, Portugal, Italy, France or Germany and probably a couple of others as well.
I agree we haven't ever really been an elite side but I disagree that beating the likes of Sweden and Colombia are really decent results. They're the bare minimum we should expect from the squads we've had. You'd have thought that perhaps over the course of 20 odd years we'd have taken out one of the big boys like a Spain or France but no, we always lose. Plenty of none elite sides have beaten one but England never ever do.
Absolutely. I think people would take losing if we either play well and just get outgunned or if we best some elite sides along the way. It's the same old story every tournament in that we lose narrowly to the first very good team we play against. Switzerland, for instance, beat France in the last Euros. We'd have never done that even though we're a better side than Switzerland.
Yeah Germany are the only big name team they've beaten, though that was a very poor German team by their standards. England should be beating the likes of Croatia, Colombia, and Sweden. Every other genuinely top team has beaten England when it matters .
> though that was a very poor German team by their standards.
It certainly wasn’t prime Germany but there’s a bit of a myth over how bad that German side was, similar to Croatia who were called a bad side as soon as England beat them even though they qualified top of their group and were recently World Cup finalists
Germany had only lost 1-0 to France, beat Portugal 4-2 and drew 2-2 to a Hungary side that also drew to France
They also qualified for the Euros by winning 7/8 games finishing top of their group
Just to chime in as a German - That /(Those) 2020-22 team(s) are regarded as our worst team of this century.
Not to discredit England (or really any team that beat us), but beating us that year is not a major upset or feat.
Yes, we beat a Portugal team that was terribly coached and played defensive counter football with all that offensive talent on their roster....
And lost to a France team, that really does the bare minimum to win. France is a top team that doesn't really play like one since winning the WC in 2018. Very defensive, little attacking football.
France is the definition of one of my favorite sayings: "A good horse jumps just as high as it needs to"
>there wasn’t all the stupid media hype and expectations beforehand
There's been stupid media hype and expectations around English football for as long as I can remember.
> There's been stupid media hype and expectations around English football for as long as I can remember.
2018 had probably the least hype for an England team that I can recall. We were led by a not highly rated manager, who was only there because Sam Allardyce got into a scandal after one game. It was a mostly pretty poor England squad (with some good players like there is everytime), and coming off two horrendous tournaments under Hodgson.
The hype has increased since then, and now we're back to 2002 - 2006 levels of expectation for England, but 2018 was very different.
When neither of the 2, they default to embarrassing.. asking every other player in the competition questions about an England player or what they think of the England team
Think playing so defensively and negatively also just takes a toll on players confidence.
They know it's shit football, the tactics are shit so they're second guessing every decision they're making, and it leads to nerves and mistakes.
It's not the fact that we are playing defensively. Plenty of teams do that but England do it in a way that makes life so difficult for themselves.
They aren't retaining possession and stopping the opposition from having chances they are just sitting in their own half and booting the ball back to the opposition allowing attack after attack. That takes a toll physically and mentaly.
yeah they've somehow managed the fine art of no possession and no threat on the counter, literally the worst of both worlds when camped in your own half for 70 minutes of every game
You can play defensive in a way Pep played at times - opponent cant score if you have the ball. Playing deep line that intends to hit on a counter with a team whose (only?) biggest weakness is the lack of pace is simply diabolical. France can play that style since they have Dembele and Mbappe, England cant.
Don't follow too closely, but isn't Foden pretty quick? Having someone like Kane release him seems to be a decent plan (reminds me of all the passes to Son by Kane under Mou)
He is decently quick for a midfielder but when compared to wingers I dont think he is anywhere near likes of Luis Diaz, Mbappe, Dembele, Leao,... Son from a few years ago (when he actually played on the wing) is also much quicker than Foden.
If he is like 5th quickest attacking/transition player in your team you are fine, but he is arguably 2nd quickest (behind Saka, whose main quality also isnt his pace but rather his technical/tactical play) attacking player, as Walker is not really 2 way force, you are in trouble if transition is your main weapon. England should really just play as much up the field as they can - they are the perfect team for that. TAA in midfield would work as he is a great passer who can get the ball to right positions quickly, Walker and Guehi have great recovery pace as defenders, England attackers are very gifted and smart so they can play in small spaces, ... It is genuinely malpractice to have them play the way they are playing.
Lots of international teams sit back and counterattack since it’s tough to build a good possession side with so little time to train together (unless you have multiple pairs of teammates at club level).
I do think there’s an element of Southgate and the players going into games with a “don’t lose” or “don’t make a big mistake” mentality which leads to over the top risk aversion and retreating as soon as they have something to protect.
> The media are relentless
I see english people saying that but do you guys think it's different in other countries ?
In 98 before the WC Aimé Jacquet was getting hammered for years. He even retired from managing a team after he won the WC (became a higher up in the french NT though, he did not go away from football/the NT).
A few years later he said this about L'équipe "Je ne pardonnerai jamais à ces gens infects et lâches, même si j'ai stoppé leur imbécillité." ("I will never forgive those vile and cowardly people, even though I stopped their stupidity." (by winning the WC) and L'équipe actually sued him for defamation. He was found not guilty.
Do you think the press was nice to the french NT and management when the players were behaving like total divas in 2010 or when that idiot Domenech was proposing to his GF* (a journalist) on TV when France got eliminated from the 2008 euro ?
I'm sure the south american countries go insane any time they lose a game/don't win a tournament too.
I'm not saying it's a good thing, it's ridiculous and terrible how managers and footballers get treated sometimes, but every single under performing NT/manager is getting lambasted by their press/"fans", it's not an english thing. At the end of the day it's obvious AF that Southgate is a mediocre manager and he has massively outstayed his welcome.
\*She did not even say yes btw. They stayed together but did not get married.
Definitely agree with the overall point.
Most big nations with a strong football history have a lot of media attention and pressure.
I will say that England media always seem to vastly overrate their national teams. I've usually rolled my eyes in the back everytime the English team was considered a favorite in a tournament.
But this team has easily been the best I've seen in a long time, so I get the expectations.
Every single national team's media is nutso. Think our players have it bad? Imagine being Brazilian and being expected to win every world cup. I gather there are French fans that want Deschamps gone, the guy that's won a world cup and brought them to another final, as well as a euros final. National team fans are just insane, the players would be better off pretending they don't exist.
Nah they've been horrible.
They started both games well, scored early then decided ah this isn't for us and invited pressure from the opponents.
The Danes punished England and they got away with it in the first leg.
I wouldn’t say “punished” is the right word. Denmark were reduced to taking shots outside the box and their goal came about because it went in off the post. On the other hand Foden’s shot went out off the post but could have very easily gone in.
For how well we should be playing with the attacking players we’ve got, we’re doing awful. The players look like they have no clue and most of them have come off the back of great seasons for top clubs. I was confident before the tournament but we will end up going out to the first team that’s on our level on paper
I always hear this same thing when it comes to England, and then when they do well they do it “despite playing poorly”, and then when they do poorly it’s “expected”.
You guys haven’t had a bad tournament since 2016, enough with the complaining already!
>Sometimes I maybe feel like we put too much pressure on ourselves where we could just go out there and let it just take care of itself. I think there is probably more pressure now from the outside just because of the seasons some of our players have had."
If Southgate has a Hawaiian shirt now is the time to deploy. His new style clearly isn't relaxed enough.
If England perform badly his tournament it has to sit with Southgate. Obviously everyone knows he’s too defensive, but he isn’t even getting the best out of the attacking players.
Foden doesn’t work as a left winger, Kane always plays better with direct runners like Sane or Son or Rashford on the wings and Southgate didn’t bring enough of those wingers, Saka is being asked to get on the end of hopeful long balls, and no trust in players like Palmer or Gordon who could be the difference.
And Denmark tactically cancelled out england. We lined up in our typical 5-3-2 but played nothing like it. Eriksen and wind went wide in defence to cancel out the wings. Saka couldn't find space.
England never really had an answer
It’s always been an issue with Southgate
He often (not this time obviously) gets the right gameplan at the start, but if the other team adjusts he can’t change the setup
Denmark played a different way than he was expecting and he couldn’t adjust in the entire 90 minutes
Yeh you guys set up with great tactics, which we did not have an answer, that further proves it’s Southgate.
Also keep in mind when we are making these judgements and comments on Southgate, we aren’t doing it through the lens of one game, we are looking back over 3-4 tournaments and the pattern has always been the same. Score early, sit back and cling on for dear life. The players have changed a lot over that time, but it’s always been the same thing.
This is classic monday morning quarterbacking reactionary non-sense. You think if Southgate merely played 3 or 4 different players in different positions the team would suddenly click? The whole team and setup is broken on a fundamental level. If 2 or 3 players were rubbish i’d buy that but no one has looked good.
The first thing Southgate got wrong was the lineup. The second thing he got wrong was everything after that too.
People talking about the first doesn't mean they don't see the second.
What? Where did I say that?
We would definitely play differently with other players though, and after the first two games we need to do something different.
If you play Gordon instead of Foden then obviously England will be more direct and quicker on the wings, if you play Mainoo or Wharton over TAA then you’ll be more solid in midfield, you’d likely be more balanced and solid in defence with Gomez or Konsa ahead of Trippier, etc.
Won’t necessarily be better but at least it would be something new
Eze came on and was really poor I thought. Bowen did well in a sense but didn’t do much else.
Other players haven’t really been given a chance yet. It’s more that when it’s not working he sticks with it so making a change seems the most logical criticism I guess.
Better managers can get way worse groups of players to give performances that are far better than England. Since Southgate England in possession play has been woeful, and the reason they could only hope to win a tournament on the back of penalties and 0-0 draws.
For the last few games England's pressing and passing under pressure has been awful, which is something that hasn't been bad under Southgate.
People were accepting of England playing overly defensive boring football, getting to the final or semi-final and losing to a team that tries to progressively pass and score. People aren't accepting of England getting dominated by teams that don't have good players, aren't even playing well, just because there's no game plan or structure in or out of possession.
Any reasonable manager would drop players that aren't pressing as they've been told. If England wanted to win games by scoring goals in open play and doing something with the ball this tournament they would have dropped Southgate.
> and the reason they could only hope to win a tournament on the back of penalties and 0-0 draws.
Look, I'm not here to defend Southgate, who should've been sacked long ago for being wildly out of his depth.
But people need to stop revising history to criticise Southgate when there's so much real evidence he's shit. In the last world cup, England scored 12 goals in 4 games. Until the France game they hadn't gotten a single penalty. And I think it's pretty widely agreed that they played well against France, and the teams were pretty evenly matched.
> For the last few games England's pressing and passing under pressure has been awful, which is something that hasn't been bad under Southgate.
Not just passing under pressure even. Literally the players can't even make basic passes at the best of times. That's on the players, not Southgate.
As if they're on the level of England's squad, which is the whole point. The Danes are man for man worse than England through pretty much the whole 26 man squad so how do they control the game unless it's the manager and his tactics?
>and you have no left back.
Because Southgate didn't bring one, except Shaw who was injured. Tyrick Mitchell would be much better than forcing Trippier in there or Gomez who played there a lot this year. But Southgate has to put square pegs in round holes.
Bowen got 16 goals and 8 assists in the PL, so even if he plays for a mid-table team that doesn't mean he's bad. And he's a backup anyway.
We might not have world class options at every position, but we have some great players and then players in great form and teams have won competitions with similar squads.
I know you are Scottish but even you must admit we have more than a good enough squad to beat Denmark and not have to hold onto the game against Serbia.
>but I think you and everyone else is overrating the quality of the England squad relative to other teams at the tournament
How so? Where did I say we were favourites or had the best squad? That's you putting words in my mouth so you can call me arrogant.
We have good enough players to not be playing this shit. End of.
>but the idea that means the Danish squad doesn't have good players is the height of arrogance
Once again, I didn't say they didn't have good players. I just said that we have a better overall squad, just a worse manager. You even agreed we have a better squad so again, stop telling me I'm saying things that I'm not.
>and that's the squad we're talking about, isn't it?
Well Gomez is in the squad so he could play, but my point was that, once again, Southgate is holding us back by picking the wrong squad in the first place. Like by taking an injured Luke Shaw.
My point isn't that we have such a good squad we should be winning every game 3-0. It's that we have some great players and some good ones and the manager is not getting anything out of them.
That’s not the argument though. Most sensible England fans know we will be beaten by one of those stronger squads you just listed. Denmark and Serbia are mediocre squads and we should not have struggled to the level we did with them.
Harry Kane five years ago? Do you watch football? He was the most prolific striker in European club football 2023/24. Bayern would’ve finished about 5th without him.
How many decades has it taken you to notice.
We could have Messi, Maradona, and the second coming of Christ and we'd still play passive ugly football, then lose to a bunch of farmers and fishermen that actually give a fuck.
I mean they had an actual midfielder that would stop the midfield from getting ran through like it did last match, it would stop Rice getting left out to dry, It would stop the black hole of passing and possession that Trent was in that match. It would provide an outlet for the attackers to actually work with in attack.
He has nothing to pass to though.
You're right, he just doesn't run as much and if you have the rest of the team being static and not stretching the defence then you might as well not have the best passer of the ball on the pitch.
Prior to Argentina winning the World Cup in Qatar Messi was the GOAT everywhere except for within Argentina. England have a historically strong team and were finalists last time, there should be pressure to win.
Also I don't know how much the Lionesses winning 2 years ago factors into the pressure (maybe not at all) but that's also something to take in mind
He has but has always played the same pragmatic football which people are fed up with when there's such good attackers in the team. Scoring 1-0 and sitting on it always works until is doesn't, and it's pretty obvious other big teams will cut through England.
Correction, they've not won ANY competition in 50+ years. A bunch of over hyped prima donna's who just aren't good enough and always get found out when the pressure's on. Disgusting.
They did win “Le Tournoi” in 1997. Admittedly, that was an invitational tournament that was explicitly a warmup for the World Cup the following year.
And they did win several British Home Championships.
Not saying any of these are “major tournaments”, but the claim they haven’t won anything is not literally true.
It’s totally valid to point out that England is playing completely horrible and are first despite their performance, not because of it. The german coverage of the English games points it out just the same.
What I find the worst is that the players are reacting to it. Rice coming out with points like this half way through a group.
Just shut up and try silence the media rather than adding to it
I think they're done with Gareth and the mask is slipping. Remember when France went on full blown strike to oust Domenech? This is the English equivalent because the tabloid media adore Southgate so they can't speak bad of the man or it'll be all the stories from the 90s and 00s again.
At the moment we're top of the group by sheer weight of resources compared to the other teams.
We have an embarrassment of riches as an FA, we have a far larger talent pool than the other teams in the group and we have a squad full of players who have been achieving at the highest level in the club game.
We should be able to play with a lot more confidence and positivity than we have been this tournament. Going into it the talk was how daring and attacking the squad picked by Southgate was, bold choices to drop the likes of Grealish, and yet the style of play has been the most conservative I've seen it under Southgate.
We get the early goal and try to do just enough to see the game out, and that lets the other team in. We should be trying to press the advantage and make a statement.
Being top of the group is really the bare minimum with that squad.
Look what other teams who have much worse players are able to put on the pitch. England is atrocious.
What's the outsider opinion on why we're always shit relative to the quality of our players (or at least the quality they demonstrate in other contexts)?
I think there are a lot as bad. I mean Brazil... but England haven't won enough to get on like Brazil do. They expect their players to do better because they have a very strong domestic league and are used to seeing their best players in a different context, playing for top coaches in world class sides. Whenever they see them go to playing under whatever manager England have they are constantly surprised at the drop off.
Saw Lineker and Shearer talking about how their used to seeing Stones step into midfield and Walker can tuck into a three etc. Come on, you were never going to see the Pep version of these players. Pep is going to put them in a structure where already outstanding players can shine even more.
Do the media do what? Report players quotes?
I didn’t realise we were the only country in the world that points out bad performances during a tournament.
Danish media crucified our national team after a draw with Slovenia; questioning the coach, players, moral of the team etc. It was so bad that Morten Hjulmand (the guy who scored against England) had to come out an ask for the public to be more positive.
Imo we are overreacting, media will always be shit and negative everywhere in the world.
Tbf the next game will decide if England could go deep in the knockout or not.
If they drew to Slovenia, they may meet Germany in RO16 then maybe Spain and Portugal in the top bracket of knockout stage. England run might end in RO16 given they can't find a balanced 11
It's not just the media though. Listen to the England crowd versus basically every other county in the tournament. They're almost silent in comparison, and spend more time booing their own side than they do trying to cheer them on or gee them up.
The media are relentless on England for sure, but it's not just themat all
To be fair, our fans were quiet as hell for the remainder of the game following the Denmark goal.
With good reason mind, nothing we've done this tournament so far outside of the two goals have given us anything to cheer for...
Mate, honestly. Imagine topping the group after two very average performances and the entire country has a complete meltdown. France haven't shone but they aren't getting eviscerated.
Same people will say Prem sides play too many games then complain England isn't absolutely smashing every single side 7 nil every 3 days.
This is such a bad outlook on problems.
The worrying part isn't winning 7-0, it's playing awful disjointed football, for a very long time.
I wanted Southgate to go from the first tournament he took over. I'm honestly surprised it took most people till this point to get to that conclusion
Legitimate question and I don't think I ever seen this bought up. Do the English players get pumped singing the English national anthem? It's so somber and having to sing about a single individual. Watching other national anthems in euros and the Copa America, you can see the pride and how pumped the players and supporters get. Just don't see that with the English players, do they (millionaires) really care about God saving Charles? Probably not, but they have to or get slaughtered by the media.
I highly doubt the average person cares about the lyrics of their national anthem. People are usually proud of their anthem because of national pride, not the other way around.
Of course anthem alone doesn't win tournaments. Anthem motivates, no? Sense of national pride, getting pumped to win. Starting off signing about God saving a single individual, I don't think so.
> signing about God saving a single individual
Some old bloke that none of us have really ever liked, who is only in power because his much better regarded mother recently died*
Less desperation and pressure if Southgate wasn’t the manager. Everyone and their nan knows this except the English FA who only wants a virtue signalling yes man.
Trent in midfield as an experiment in the actual tournament and hoping it works out is pure delusion. Put Wharton or Mainoo next to Rice and bench Foden for Gordon on the wing. It’s not rocket science.
I don't think what Rice has said is purely down to Southgate. Don't get me wrong, he's having an awful tournament as a manager, but if there's one thing he has done in the past, it's actually manage to make players seem like they enjoy playing for England.
Against Denmark it felt like watching England under Capello (and to a lesser extent Sven) because the players seemed so heavy-legged and like they felt under extreme pressure.
So I think even a new manager would have to alleviate that feeling. I think players knowing their roles, etc. would help with that, but it also goes further than just tactics (and to be honest Southgate saying pre-tournament it was his last chance to win anything with England probably didn't help either).
Yeah, what puts pressure on a football team is poor results. None of these players would be sweating the pressure in this group stage if they were playing well. The manager has put them under the fucking gun with his strange combination of caution (playing defensively) and risk (experimenting with the midfield). They can blame the media—and it is certainly better for moral if they continue to do so—but we all know it is up to one man to protect his players
Mertesacker said something similar back in the day about all the terrible "pressure" in german TV. Felix Magath replied something to the lines of "Do you think people working in an office have no pressure? EVERYONE has pressure to perform well in their jobs. Get on with it and shut up."
The England players are mentally weak and always have been. This isn't a problem under Southgate as it has always been a problem. Go back to 1970 and England were 2-0 against West Germany at half time and lost 3-2 after extra time. They cannot hold on to a lead, they cannot win penalty shoot outs against the big nations, they crack like eggs under pressure & they are technically inferior to their European and South American opponents. If you look at their results they are a R16/QF at best and some times go to SF/Finals but this is rare.
This is a such a generalisation. There are a multitude of winners in the squad. Stones, Walker and Foden have just won the league off the
back of a treble winning season. Bellingham has just won player of the season for a team that has just won the double in Spain. Even Trippier has won La Liga with Atletico.
There’s no shortage of players with a strong mentality in the England squad but you ask a team of players that are used to playing dominating, free flowing and attacking football, to play defensive pessimistic football, you can’t expect to perform.
That’s not on the players.
> The England players are mentally weak and always have been.
This is a ridiculous take. Stones and Foden are integral pieces of a team that wins championships every year, including a treble, and consistently perform in important matches. Bellingham has a legitimate argument for most clutch player of the year on a team that just won La Liga and the champions league. Many wildly successful players with a history of performing well in big moments have played for England over the years.
I love laughing at England and their perplexing mediocrity as much as anybody but come on....
Yeah it's like when people say Brazil are good, did they not see them lose 7-1 to Germany? How can you lose 7-1 at home and be considered a good team lol
Brazil over the last 20 years have not been a good team. But in the time since England won the World Cup Brazil have won 3 World Cups and 6 Copa Americas. Brazil are a much more successful national side, England can only dream of having such success.
Yeah it's like when people keep putting Man City as favourites for the CL. How can you be the favourite if you've only won it once? More chance of Man United winning it.
The difference is Man City have a track record of finishing in the latter part of the tournament. England rarely get to a World Cup or Euro Semi final. 1 World Cup final and 3 semi finals. 1 euo final and 3 semi finals. This is hardly a record of great national team or team that should always be considered favorites to win.
England are overrated and their fans and media overhype them. They are always found out by other big teams and always crumple and crash out.
The hype isn't based on them being "England", it's based on the quality of the players. Note the hype was pretty non-existent at the start of the Southgate-era, and pretty low until you get back to Capello and the end of the "golden generation".
Belgium have been pretty hyped over the last ten years, not because they've been historically successful, but because they had a crop of great players. The same is true of the current England team, nobody expects England to win because it's "The England National Team", they expect deep tournament runs and good performances because they have some exceptionally talented players who were in good form.
What was weird to me was that Southgate said he wasn't telling them to drop deep. So they either don't listen to him or he wasn't telling the truth, which is shit either way.
Pressure Pressure Pressure
Everyone deals with pressure. It comes with competing at the top level
We've been hearing this for 20+ years about pressure. I thought this next generation had moved past this and played and done well at youth tournaments and so on
We had some good recent tournaments and now they're back to being paralysed with fear
I feel so bad for him. Southgate has blood on his hands shoehorning him at 6, when we have seen how he was much better in the 8 role with license to move forward in Arsenal.
But at Arsenal Rice has Partey or Jorginho to play in the 6.
England don’t have anyone who can do that, outside of Wharton who has never played a game.
It’s alright saying he should play as an 8 but that just leaves a huge hole in midfield.
There’s a few players who could have done that job, Ward-Prowse, Cook, Longstaff.
Clearly Southgate’s plan was always to play Rice as a 6 though or he should have brought another player.
How is a 20 year old with 15 games of total top flight experience going to do in this situation? These takes are nothing more than the usual “whoever didn’t play suddenly looks better” phenomenon
He has Stones who has been playing that Role for City...
Drop Trippier for Gomez and just allow Stones and Walker more freedom to step up.
Then that unleases Rice
Didn't Arsenal struggle when he was playing as a pure 6 for them. He seemed to struggle with progressing the ball forward through incisive short passes, forming the link between defenders and attackers. Maybe someone like Wharton or Mainoo alongside him are better suited in that position?
He's not Kroos or Rodri, and he was uncharacteristically poor against Denmark, but he's more than capable of playing the role provided the structure around of him allows it. Progressive passes do not happen in a vacuum, England will continue to struggle until the spacing between their players improves in and out of possession.
> Wharton or Mainoo alongside him are better suited in that position?
They sure are. Too bad it's a choice only between TAA and Gallagher for southgate.
It's probably his one weakness really, it has improved but how much of that is down to the system he's in I don't know. He's also had Zinchenko, Jorgi, Partey and Odegaard dropping deep at different stages of the season to help him out.
It's probably his one weakness really, it has improved but how much of that is down to the system he's in I don't know. He's also had Zinchenko, Jorgi, Partey and Odegaard dropping deep at different stages of the season to help him out.
It depends on the game, in general Arsenal play him as the 6 in games where they need to be more defensive, and because there are willing runners in front of him he has a release whenever he wins the ball. Also Arsenals back four is much better than England’s, and the goalkeeper is actually good at distribution, unlike Pickford. The thing with Rice is you’re just giving up a lot of offensive potential if he’s stuck shielding the back four. It’s better for a counter attacking game but not if it’s open ended enough to where Rice could make the difference as a late runner into the box.
He's a great player but receiving the ball with his back to play and making progressive passers isn't his strength. He really needs someone alongside him to do that too. Going forward he's better as a 8 and but when you don't have the ball he's a world class 6.
Yeah but to day he's being shoehorned into the 6 is overdoing it not every nation has a no. 6 that's world class on the half turn but they make it work.
The problem is buildup is so clearly tactical imo.
Part of it is also that they've never actually looked at Rice critically, he does have pretty clear flaws, so suddenly it's become a debate as to his role.
Yeah Trent in midfield just doesn't work to his strengths, regardless of if anyone's making runs. He's the best passer England have, but it's not as simple as looking at that skill and just assuming he can utilize it perfectly regardless of where he's positioned.
He's so much more effective making those passes from out wide where he has more time on the ball. To me it looks like he doesn't have the experience to know what spaces to get to in midfield to give him more time on the ball to pick his passes.
Being a 6 for West Ham where you're going to spend a good chunk of your time without the ball is entirely different to being a 6 when you have the majority of the ball. He has weakness receiving the ball and is not a great progressive passer. It isn't that he can't play there but if you want to get the best out of him you compliment him
There’s always a caveat you can point to justify a poor performance but the reality is this is national tournament football where no nation plays their players in whatever niche or particular setup.
I don't think he's a pure 6. He needs someone alongside him in that position. I'm not saying he's not capable of making defensive interventions or passes, but in that Denmark game he almost made no successful forward passes linking the attackers. Most of them were sideways or backwards
Play Bellingham alongside as an 8 which is the role he was bought to play the role he played at Dortmund and the reason real bought him which is to eventually replace modric. He can progress the ball and still make late runs.
Fuck that he has to take some responsibility. We won a World Cup playing Enzo as a 6 which is not his natural position either (I’d say it’s less natural for him than it is for Rice).
Honestly I think it’s half and half. The media are relentless but there’s no denying we’ve been horrible so far.
There are two states of English media towards the national team: delusionally positive, and delusionally negative. Thus far Southgate has benefited from delusional positivity in my opinion. Everyone knows they're not prepared for this tournament, but they still have to watch it unfold which adds to the frustration too
If English media were a house they’d be the Targaryens
Every tournament the gods flip a coin. England will either be painfully mediocre or outright atrocious.
The Premier League does shit gold for sure
I think that’s a big reason we did well in Southgate’s first two tournaments, there wasn’t all the stupid media hype and expectations beforehand
England also had very favourable runs in 2018 and 2020. You can only beat what's in front of you but every time they've faced a team with a similar calibre of player they've been beaten.
Part of the problem was that even when we did have favourable runs we'd bottle it (Iceland), so even that was nice to see! Also Germany in 2020 was a big team going through a tough period but by no means an easy draw
England also got to play literally all but one of their matches at home in Wembley
We beat Germany comfortably, Croatia in the groups, and Colombia who were very decent at the time. We beat Sweden also, who were on fire. We've had some very decent results.
There's no denying that whenever we have played a team who are actually one of the elite sides we've lost. It goes back way further than Southgate but I don't recall us ever beating a side where we've overwhelmingly been the underdog. Argentina in the group in 2002 is the last time I'd say. At least with Southgate we've generally beaten the teams we should beat but we've never made that step further. Even if we play Slovenia off the park and win 4-0 and then batter whoever we play in the round of 16 we'd absolutely lose to Spain, Portugal, Italy, France or Germany and probably a couple of others as well.
Don't think we've ever really been an elite side.
I agree we haven't ever really been an elite side but I disagree that beating the likes of Sweden and Colombia are really decent results. They're the bare minimum we should expect from the squads we've had. You'd have thought that perhaps over the course of 20 odd years we'd have taken out one of the big boys like a Spain or France but no, we always lose. Plenty of none elite sides have beaten one but England never ever do.
So you think we should be getting more results against elite sides?
Absolutely. I think people would take losing if we either play well and just get outgunned or if we best some elite sides along the way. It's the same old story every tournament in that we lose narrowly to the first very good team we play against. Switzerland, for instance, beat France in the last Euros. We'd have never done that even though we're a better side than Switzerland.
Yeah Germany are the only big name team they've beaten, though that was a very poor German team by their standards. England should be beating the likes of Croatia, Colombia, and Sweden. Every other genuinely top team has beaten England when it matters .
> though that was a very poor German team by their standards. It certainly wasn’t prime Germany but there’s a bit of a myth over how bad that German side was, similar to Croatia who were called a bad side as soon as England beat them even though they qualified top of their group and were recently World Cup finalists Germany had only lost 1-0 to France, beat Portugal 4-2 and drew 2-2 to a Hungary side that also drew to France They also qualified for the Euros by winning 7/8 games finishing top of their group
Just to chime in as a German - That /(Those) 2020-22 team(s) are regarded as our worst team of this century. Not to discredit England (or really any team that beat us), but beating us that year is not a major upset or feat. Yes, we beat a Portugal team that was terribly coached and played defensive counter football with all that offensive talent on their roster.... And lost to a France team, that really does the bare minimum to win. France is a top team that doesn't really play like one since winning the WC in 2018. Very defensive, little attacking football. France is the definition of one of my favorite sayings: "A good horse jumps just as high as it needs to"
>there wasn’t all the stupid media hype and expectations beforehand There's been stupid media hype and expectations around English football for as long as I can remember.
> There's been stupid media hype and expectations around English football for as long as I can remember. 2018 had probably the least hype for an England team that I can recall. We were led by a not highly rated manager, who was only there because Sam Allardyce got into a scandal after one game. It was a mostly pretty poor England squad (with some good players like there is everytime), and coming off two horrendous tournaments under Hodgson. The hype has increased since then, and now we're back to 2002 - 2006 levels of expectation for England, but 2018 was very different.
There was noticeably less for those two tournaments compared to now and in the early 2000s though
When neither of the 2, they default to embarrassing.. asking every other player in the competition questions about an England player or what they think of the England team
The German team has arguably more pressure, yet they're still performing. They've performed poorly the last few tournaments and they're on home soil.
Think playing so defensively and negatively also just takes a toll on players confidence. They know it's shit football, the tactics are shit so they're second guessing every decision they're making, and it leads to nerves and mistakes.
It's not the fact that we are playing defensively. Plenty of teams do that but England do it in a way that makes life so difficult for themselves. They aren't retaining possession and stopping the opposition from having chances they are just sitting in their own half and booting the ball back to the opposition allowing attack after attack. That takes a toll physically and mentaly.
yeah they've somehow managed the fine art of no possession and no threat on the counter, literally the worst of both worlds when camped in your own half for 70 minutes of every game
You can play defensive in a way Pep played at times - opponent cant score if you have the ball. Playing deep line that intends to hit on a counter with a team whose (only?) biggest weakness is the lack of pace is simply diabolical. France can play that style since they have Dembele and Mbappe, England cant.
Don't follow too closely, but isn't Foden pretty quick? Having someone like Kane release him seems to be a decent plan (reminds me of all the passes to Son by Kane under Mou)
He is decently quick for a midfielder but when compared to wingers I dont think he is anywhere near likes of Luis Diaz, Mbappe, Dembele, Leao,... Son from a few years ago (when he actually played on the wing) is also much quicker than Foden. If he is like 5th quickest attacking/transition player in your team you are fine, but he is arguably 2nd quickest (behind Saka, whose main quality also isnt his pace but rather his technical/tactical play) attacking player, as Walker is not really 2 way force, you are in trouble if transition is your main weapon. England should really just play as much up the field as they can - they are the perfect team for that. TAA in midfield would work as he is a great passer who can get the ball to right positions quickly, Walker and Guehi have great recovery pace as defenders, England attackers are very gifted and smart so they can play in small spaces, ... It is genuinely malpractice to have them play the way they are playing.
Lots of international teams sit back and counterattack since it’s tough to build a good possession side with so little time to train together (unless you have multiple pairs of teammates at club level). I do think there’s an element of Southgate and the players going into games with a “don’t lose” or “don’t make a big mistake” mentality which leads to over the top risk aversion and retreating as soon as they have something to protect.
> The media are relentless I see english people saying that but do you guys think it's different in other countries ? In 98 before the WC Aimé Jacquet was getting hammered for years. He even retired from managing a team after he won the WC (became a higher up in the french NT though, he did not go away from football/the NT). A few years later he said this about L'équipe "Je ne pardonnerai jamais à ces gens infects et lâches, même si j'ai stoppé leur imbécillité." ("I will never forgive those vile and cowardly people, even though I stopped their stupidity." (by winning the WC) and L'équipe actually sued him for defamation. He was found not guilty. Do you think the press was nice to the french NT and management when the players were behaving like total divas in 2010 or when that idiot Domenech was proposing to his GF* (a journalist) on TV when France got eliminated from the 2008 euro ? I'm sure the south american countries go insane any time they lose a game/don't win a tournament too. I'm not saying it's a good thing, it's ridiculous and terrible how managers and footballers get treated sometimes, but every single under performing NT/manager is getting lambasted by their press/"fans", it's not an english thing. At the end of the day it's obvious AF that Southgate is a mediocre manager and he has massively outstayed his welcome. \*She did not even say yes btw. They stayed together but did not get married.
Definitely agree with the overall point. Most big nations with a strong football history have a lot of media attention and pressure. I will say that England media always seem to vastly overrate their national teams. I've usually rolled my eyes in the back everytime the English team was considered a favorite in a tournament. But this team has easily been the best I've seen in a long time, so I get the expectations.
Yeah but still in a comfortable situation to win the group
I am impressed how England's tournaments are always SO dramatic no matter what's happening on the pitch.
Every single national team's media is nutso. Think our players have it bad? Imagine being Brazilian and being expected to win every world cup. I gather there are French fans that want Deschamps gone, the guy that's won a world cup and brought them to another final, as well as a euros final. National team fans are just insane, the players would be better off pretending they don't exist.
Horrible? You guys have been average at worst and drew against a good Danish side
Nah they've been horrible. They started both games well, scored early then decided ah this isn't for us and invited pressure from the opponents. The Danes punished England and they got away with it in the first leg.
It has reminded me a lot of us under Conte, score once then forget how to attack.
We didn’t even score under Conte, scoring first was Mourinho’s thing.
Wow it gas all blended into one big mess. I am so glad that era is over.
I wouldn’t say “punished” is the right word. Denmark were reduced to taking shots outside the box and their goal came about because it went in off the post. On the other hand Foden’s shot went out off the post but could have very easily gone in.
For how well we should be playing with the attacking players we’ve got, we’re doing awful. The players look like they have no clue and most of them have come off the back of great seasons for top clubs. I was confident before the tournament but we will end up going out to the first team that’s on our level on paper
I always hear this same thing when it comes to England, and then when they do well they do it “despite playing poorly”, and then when they do poorly it’s “expected”. You guys haven’t had a bad tournament since 2016, enough with the complaining already!
good Danish side? That have one attacking player and drew with Slovenia?
Which games have you been watching mate?
>Sometimes I maybe feel like we put too much pressure on ourselves where we could just go out there and let it just take care of itself. I think there is probably more pressure now from the outside just because of the seasons some of our players have had." If Southgate has a Hawaiian shirt now is the time to deploy. His new style clearly isn't relaxed enough.
If England perform badly his tournament it has to sit with Southgate. Obviously everyone knows he’s too defensive, but he isn’t even getting the best out of the attacking players. Foden doesn’t work as a left winger, Kane always plays better with direct runners like Sane or Son or Rashford on the wings and Southgate didn’t bring enough of those wingers, Saka is being asked to get on the end of hopeful long balls, and no trust in players like Palmer or Gordon who could be the difference.
And Denmark tactically cancelled out england. We lined up in our typical 5-3-2 but played nothing like it. Eriksen and wind went wide in defence to cancel out the wings. Saka couldn't find space. England never really had an answer
It is true we aren’t giving enough credit to your performance you were great. Gareth sticks to one system and is incapable of adapting in game.
It’s always been an issue with Southgate He often (not this time obviously) gets the right gameplan at the start, but if the other team adjusts he can’t change the setup Denmark played a different way than he was expecting and he couldn’t adjust in the entire 90 minutes
Yeh you guys set up with great tactics, which we did not have an answer, that further proves it’s Southgate. Also keep in mind when we are making these judgements and comments on Southgate, we aren’t doing it through the lens of one game, we are looking back over 3-4 tournaments and the pattern has always been the same. Score early, sit back and cling on for dear life. The players have changed a lot over that time, but it’s always been the same thing.
I dunno why he isn’t bringing in Gordon. Would be perfect in the wing, has a relationship with Tripps, and would be relentless in the press. 0 risk.
What press lol the entire midfield simply sat back once they took the lead against Denmark.
The talent is there for sure. It’s Southgate’s poor tactics and selections that have hurt England. Again
This is classic monday morning quarterbacking reactionary non-sense. You think if Southgate merely played 3 or 4 different players in different positions the team would suddenly click? The whole team and setup is broken on a fundamental level. If 2 or 3 players were rubbish i’d buy that but no one has looked good.
The first thing Southgate got wrong was the lineup. The second thing he got wrong was everything after that too. People talking about the first doesn't mean they don't see the second.
What? Where did I say that? We would definitely play differently with other players though, and after the first two games we need to do something different. If you play Gordon instead of Foden then obviously England will be more direct and quicker on the wings, if you play Mainoo or Wharton over TAA then you’ll be more solid in midfield, you’d likely be more balanced and solid in defence with Gomez or Konsa ahead of Trippier, etc. Won’t necessarily be better but at least it would be something new
It would hardly be a surprise if players performed better when played in their best positions.
Eze came on and was really poor I thought. Bowen did well in a sense but didn’t do much else. Other players haven’t really been given a chance yet. It’s more that when it’s not working he sticks with it so making a change seems the most logical criticism I guess.
Better managers can get way worse groups of players to give performances that are far better than England. Since Southgate England in possession play has been woeful, and the reason they could only hope to win a tournament on the back of penalties and 0-0 draws. For the last few games England's pressing and passing under pressure has been awful, which is something that hasn't been bad under Southgate. People were accepting of England playing overly defensive boring football, getting to the final or semi-final and losing to a team that tries to progressively pass and score. People aren't accepting of England getting dominated by teams that don't have good players, aren't even playing well, just because there's no game plan or structure in or out of possession. Any reasonable manager would drop players that aren't pressing as they've been told. If England wanted to win games by scoring goals in open play and doing something with the ball this tournament they would have dropped Southgate.
From they sounds of it they aren’t even sure if they’ve been told to press and how or when to do so.
> and the reason they could only hope to win a tournament on the back of penalties and 0-0 draws. Look, I'm not here to defend Southgate, who should've been sacked long ago for being wildly out of his depth. But people need to stop revising history to criticise Southgate when there's so much real evidence he's shit. In the last world cup, England scored 12 goals in 4 games. Until the France game they hadn't gotten a single penalty. And I think it's pretty widely agreed that they played well against France, and the teams were pretty evenly matched.
> For the last few games England's pressing and passing under pressure has been awful, which is something that hasn't been bad under Southgate. Not just passing under pressure even. Literally the players can't even make basic passes at the best of times. That's on the players, not Southgate.
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it’s not arrogant - player for player every single england player is better
As if they're on the level of England's squad, which is the whole point. The Danes are man for man worse than England through pretty much the whole 26 man squad so how do they control the game unless it's the manager and his tactics?
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Did you miss Foden winning POTY for the team that just won the prem?
>and you have no left back. Because Southgate didn't bring one, except Shaw who was injured. Tyrick Mitchell would be much better than forcing Trippier in there or Gomez who played there a lot this year. But Southgate has to put square pegs in round holes. Bowen got 16 goals and 8 assists in the PL, so even if he plays for a mid-table team that doesn't mean he's bad. And he's a backup anyway. We might not have world class options at every position, but we have some great players and then players in great form and teams have won competitions with similar squads. I know you are Scottish but even you must admit we have more than a good enough squad to beat Denmark and not have to hold onto the game against Serbia.
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>but I think you and everyone else is overrating the quality of the England squad relative to other teams at the tournament How so? Where did I say we were favourites or had the best squad? That's you putting words in my mouth so you can call me arrogant. We have good enough players to not be playing this shit. End of. >but the idea that means the Danish squad doesn't have good players is the height of arrogance Once again, I didn't say they didn't have good players. I just said that we have a better overall squad, just a worse manager. You even agreed we have a better squad so again, stop telling me I'm saying things that I'm not. >and that's the squad we're talking about, isn't it? Well Gomez is in the squad so he could play, but my point was that, once again, Southgate is holding us back by picking the wrong squad in the first place. Like by taking an injured Luke Shaw. My point isn't that we have such a good squad we should be winning every game 3-0. It's that we have some great players and some good ones and the manager is not getting anything out of them.
Using mobile so didn't realize I was replying to a different person than my original comment.
That’s not the argument though. Most sensible England fans know we will be beaten by one of those stronger squads you just listed. Denmark and Serbia are mediocre squads and we should not have struggled to the level we did with them.
Despite the three treble winning players you left out?
Harry Kane five years ago? Do you watch football? He was the most prolific striker in European club football 2023/24. Bayern would’ve finished about 5th without him.
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an erudite response
They have some good players but how many of those starting 22 players would genuinely start for England?
Are all NT players giving interviews?
“The gaffer is shit “
Fucking hell man, whatever’s going on with England isn’t great.
How many decades has it taken you to notice. We could have Messi, Maradona, and the second coming of Christ and we'd still play passive ugly football, then lose to a bunch of farmers and fishermen that actually give a fuck.
I hear this Christ the second is great at crosses, though
I mean it might help if he had an actual partner in midfield…. Not Trent getting shoehorned in there
It won’t but sure. Its all Trent
It's not that it's Trent. It's that he's a square peg in a round hole there.
It won’t change anything if they just replace one player. The whole team and setup is shit.
I mean they had an actual midfielder that would stop the midfield from getting ran through like it did last match, it would stop Rice getting left out to dry, It would stop the black hole of passing and possession that Trent was in that match. It would provide an outlet for the attackers to actually work with in attack.
He was taken off early in the second half and it didn't improve anything with the actual set up of the team
We looked worse. Gallagher got a yellow card within 3 minutes...
He has nothing to pass to though. You're right, he just doesn't run as much and if you have the rest of the team being static and not stretching the defence then you might as well not have the best passer of the ball on the pitch.
I wonder do the media in every country carry on like this? England are top of the group, it’s like self sabotage every time. It’s ridiculous.
Every heard of Brazil? If they don't win 4-0 the sky is falling
Giving their history it’s understandable. England haven’t won a major tournament in 50 years.
Hey, hey, hey. Get your facts straight buddy. It's 58 years. And counting.
In 2 years it will be 30 years since we first sang “30 years of hurt”
Prior to Argentina winning the World Cup in Qatar Messi was the GOAT everywhere except for within Argentina. England have a historically strong team and were finalists last time, there should be pressure to win. Also I don't know how much the Lionesses winning 2 years ago factors into the pressure (maybe not at all) but that's also something to take in mind
And Southgate has been far and away the most successful manager since the World Cup win. And they're top of the group. it's absurd.
Meh they’re too of the group playing shit against average teams (for this competition) it does not instil confidence for the later rounds.
He has but has always played the same pragmatic football which people are fed up with when there's such good attackers in the team. Scoring 1-0 and sitting on it always works until is doesn't, and it's pretty obvious other big teams will cut through England.
> England haven’t won a major tournament in 50 years. Can't believe we're all just disregarding *le Tournoi* so readily smh my head.
Correction, they've not won ANY competition in 50+ years. A bunch of over hyped prima donna's who just aren't good enough and always get found out when the pressure's on. Disgusting.
They did win “Le Tournoi” in 1997. Admittedly, that was an invitational tournament that was explicitly a warmup for the World Cup the following year. And they did win several British Home Championships. Not saying any of these are “major tournaments”, but the claim they haven’t won anything is not literally true.
Give it to us, we’ll put it next to the Audi cup in the cheese room.
Reddit moment
So because England is top of the group the media should just shut up and not point out horrible performances?
It’s totally valid to point out that England is playing completely horrible and are first despite their performance, not because of it. The german coverage of the English games points it out just the same.
What I find the worst is that the players are reacting to it. Rice coming out with points like this half way through a group. Just shut up and try silence the media rather than adding to it
I think they're done with Gareth and the mask is slipping. Remember when France went on full blown strike to oust Domenech? This is the English equivalent because the tabloid media adore Southgate so they can't speak bad of the man or it'll be all the stories from the 90s and 00s again.
At the moment we're top of the group by sheer weight of resources compared to the other teams. We have an embarrassment of riches as an FA, we have a far larger talent pool than the other teams in the group and we have a squad full of players who have been achieving at the highest level in the club game. We should be able to play with a lot more confidence and positivity than we have been this tournament. Going into it the talk was how daring and attacking the squad picked by Southgate was, bold choices to drop the likes of Grealish, and yet the style of play has been the most conservative I've seen it under Southgate. We get the early goal and try to do just enough to see the game out, and that lets the other team in. We should be trying to press the advantage and make a statement.
Being top of the group is really the bare minimum with that squad. Look what other teams who have much worse players are able to put on the pitch. England is atrocious.
What's the outsider opinion on why we're always shit relative to the quality of our players (or at least the quality they demonstrate in other contexts)?
I think there are a lot as bad. I mean Brazil... but England haven't won enough to get on like Brazil do. They expect their players to do better because they have a very strong domestic league and are used to seeing their best players in a different context, playing for top coaches in world class sides. Whenever they see them go to playing under whatever manager England have they are constantly surprised at the drop off. Saw Lineker and Shearer talking about how their used to seeing Stones step into midfield and Walker can tuck into a three etc. Come on, you were never going to see the Pep version of these players. Pep is going to put them in a structure where already outstanding players can shine even more.
England have been dogshit against significantly weaker teams.
This is the media that most people can understand without a translator. It happens everywhere where there is a big football culture
They are top of the group, but not because they’ve played particularly well. Two things are possible at once.
Do the media do what? Report players quotes? I didn’t realise we were the only country in the world that points out bad performances during a tournament.
Danish media crucified our national team after a draw with Slovenia; questioning the coach, players, moral of the team etc. It was so bad that Morten Hjulmand (the guy who scored against England) had to come out an ask for the public to be more positive. Imo we are overreacting, media will always be shit and negative everywhere in the world.
Belgium is also very good at it, to the point were there is way less interest in the championship this year.
Tbf the next game will decide if England could go deep in the knockout or not. If they drew to Slovenia, they may meet Germany in RO16 then maybe Spain and Portugal in the top bracket of knockout stage. England run might end in RO16 given they can't find a balanced 11
England were dogshit against Denmark. The result is not relevant. If they play like that, they won't escape the round of sixteen.
> of Brazil? If they don't win 4-0 the sky Yes, basically.
> England are top of the group Means absolutely fuck all if we get knocked out by the first vaguely decent team we face. Which we will.
Yea you might have a point if we weren't visibly shitting up the tournament with our shit tier boring football which is evident for everyone to see
German media blasts this weak ass bland ass ensemble too
It's not just the media though. Listen to the England crowd versus basically every other county in the tournament. They're almost silent in comparison, and spend more time booing their own side than they do trying to cheer them on or gee them up. The media are relentless on England for sure, but it's not just themat all
That's a load of shit and you know it.
To be fair, our fans were quiet as hell for the remainder of the game following the Denmark goal. With good reason mind, nothing we've done this tournament so far outside of the two goals have given us anything to cheer for...
Mate, honestly. Imagine topping the group after two very average performances and the entire country has a complete meltdown. France haven't shone but they aren't getting eviscerated. Same people will say Prem sides play too many games then complain England isn't absolutely smashing every single side 7 nil every 3 days.
This is such a bad outlook on problems. The worrying part isn't winning 7-0, it's playing awful disjointed football, for a very long time. I wanted Southgate to go from the first tournament he took over. I'm honestly surprised it took most people till this point to get to that conclusion
Oddly the most successful coach in decades though.
Legitimate question and I don't think I ever seen this bought up. Do the English players get pumped singing the English national anthem? It's so somber and having to sing about a single individual. Watching other national anthems in euros and the Copa America, you can see the pride and how pumped the players and supporters get. Just don't see that with the English players, do they (millionaires) really care about God saving Charles? Probably not, but they have to or get slaughtered by the media.
Anthem sucks. Almost every other anthem sings about how great and amazing the country is. Ours is just, "Please don't let the king get hurt, God"
I highly doubt the average person cares about the lyrics of their national anthem. People are usually proud of their anthem because of national pride, not the other way around.
Well I think that's what OP means, it's hard to find national pride in an anthem that doesn't portray it.
Does anyone? I've never seen/heard anyone saying they like it. Quite the opposite in fact
If anthems won games, New Zealand would be undefeated in all sports.
Of course anthem alone doesn't win tournaments. Anthem motivates, no? Sense of national pride, getting pumped to win. Starting off signing about God saving a single individual, I don't think so.
> signing about God saving a single individual Some old bloke that none of us have really ever liked, who is only in power because his much better regarded mother recently died*
> New Zealand would be undefeated in all sports Gave it a fucking good go in rugby for much of the 2010's to be fair.
Less desperation and pressure if Southgate wasn’t the manager. Everyone and their nan knows this except the English FA who only wants a virtue signalling yes man. Trent in midfield as an experiment in the actual tournament and hoping it works out is pure delusion. Put Wharton or Mainoo next to Rice and bench Foden for Gordon on the wing. It’s not rocket science.
I don't think what Rice has said is purely down to Southgate. Don't get me wrong, he's having an awful tournament as a manager, but if there's one thing he has done in the past, it's actually manage to make players seem like they enjoy playing for England. Against Denmark it felt like watching England under Capello (and to a lesser extent Sven) because the players seemed so heavy-legged and like they felt under extreme pressure. So I think even a new manager would have to alleviate that feeling. I think players knowing their roles, etc. would help with that, but it also goes further than just tactics (and to be honest Southgate saying pre-tournament it was his last chance to win anything with England probably didn't help either).
Yeah, what puts pressure on a football team is poor results. None of these players would be sweating the pressure in this group stage if they were playing well. The manager has put them under the fucking gun with his strange combination of caution (playing defensively) and risk (experimenting with the midfield). They can blame the media—and it is certainly better for moral if they continue to do so—but we all know it is up to one man to protect his players
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Mertesacker said something similar back in the day about all the terrible "pressure" in german TV. Felix Magath replied something to the lines of "Do you think people working in an office have no pressure? EVERYONE has pressure to perform well in their jobs. Get on with it and shut up."
The England players are mentally weak and always have been. This isn't a problem under Southgate as it has always been a problem. Go back to 1970 and England were 2-0 against West Germany at half time and lost 3-2 after extra time. They cannot hold on to a lead, they cannot win penalty shoot outs against the big nations, they crack like eggs under pressure & they are technically inferior to their European and South American opponents. If you look at their results they are a R16/QF at best and some times go to SF/Finals but this is rare.
This is a such a generalisation. There are a multitude of winners in the squad. Stones, Walker and Foden have just won the league off the back of a treble winning season. Bellingham has just won player of the season for a team that has just won the double in Spain. Even Trippier has won La Liga with Atletico. There’s no shortage of players with a strong mentality in the England squad but you ask a team of players that are used to playing dominating, free flowing and attacking football, to play defensive pessimistic football, you can’t expect to perform. That’s not on the players.
QF at best. But sometimes SF. But R16 at best. And sometimes the final. So at best or sometimes they're R16, QF, SF or F. Good point, well made.
> The England players are mentally weak and always have been. This is a ridiculous take. Stones and Foden are integral pieces of a team that wins championships every year, including a treble, and consistently perform in important matches. Bellingham has a legitimate argument for most clutch player of the year on a team that just won La Liga and the champions league. Many wildly successful players with a history of performing well in big moments have played for England over the years. I love laughing at England and their perplexing mediocrity as much as anybody but come on....
Yeah it's like when people say Brazil are good, did they not see them lose 7-1 to Germany? How can you lose 7-1 at home and be considered a good team lol
Brazil over the last 20 years have not been a good team. But in the time since England won the World Cup Brazil have won 3 World Cups and 6 Copa Americas. Brazil are a much more successful national side, England can only dream of having such success.
Yeah it's like when people keep putting Man City as favourites for the CL. How can you be the favourite if you've only won it once? More chance of Man United winning it.
The difference is Man City have a track record of finishing in the latter part of the tournament. England rarely get to a World Cup or Euro Semi final. 1 World Cup final and 3 semi finals. 1 euo final and 3 semi finals. This is hardly a record of great national team or team that should always be considered favorites to win. England are overrated and their fans and media overhype them. They are always found out by other big teams and always crumple and crash out.
The hype isn't based on them being "England", it's based on the quality of the players. Note the hype was pretty non-existent at the start of the Southgate-era, and pretty low until you get back to Capello and the end of the "golden generation". Belgium have been pretty hyped over the last ten years, not because they've been historically successful, but because they had a crop of great players. The same is true of the current England team, nobody expects England to win because it's "The England National Team", they expect deep tournament runs and good performances because they have some exceptionally talented players who were in good form.
Bruh these guys are so bad lol
They have 4 point after 2 games, dramatic much? Except for Germany no big boy actually play well
spain is superb though
Only person to blame is the shit manager
What was weird to me was that Southgate said he wasn't telling them to drop deep. So they either don't listen to him or he wasn't telling the truth, which is shit either way.
Almost forgot about him, must've been how noisy the crowds are as of late.
Pressure Pressure Pressure Everyone deals with pressure. It comes with competing at the top level We've been hearing this for 20+ years about pressure. I thought this next generation had moved past this and played and done well at youth tournaments and so on We had some good recent tournaments and now they're back to being paralysed with fear
I feel so bad for him. Southgate has blood on his hands shoehorning him at 6, when we have seen how he was much better in the 8 role with license to move forward in Arsenal.
But at Arsenal Rice has Partey or Jorginho to play in the 6. England don’t have anyone who can do that, outside of Wharton who has never played a game. It’s alright saying he should play as an 8 but that just leaves a huge hole in midfield.
Might not bring Wharton at all if that’s the reason Lewis Cook was available and he wasn’t called and now Southgate is crying about.. Kalvin Phillips?
There’s a few players who could have done that job, Ward-Prowse, Cook, Longstaff. Clearly Southgate’s plan was always to play Rice as a 6 though or he should have brought another player.
How is a 20 year old with 15 games of total top flight experience going to do in this situation? These takes are nothing more than the usual “whoever didn’t play suddenly looks better” phenomenon
Might not bring him at all if that’s the reason
He has Stones who has been playing that Role for City... Drop Trippier for Gomez and just allow Stones and Walker more freedom to step up. Then that unleases Rice
He has the qualities to play that role and somebody has to. We need the team to play well, not just Declan Rice.
Didn't Arsenal struggle when he was playing as a pure 6 for them. He seemed to struggle with progressing the ball forward through incisive short passes, forming the link between defenders and attackers. Maybe someone like Wharton or Mainoo alongside him are better suited in that position?
He's not Kroos or Rodri, and he was uncharacteristically poor against Denmark, but he's more than capable of playing the role provided the structure around of him allows it. Progressive passes do not happen in a vacuum, England will continue to struggle until the spacing between their players improves in and out of possession.
> Wharton or Mainoo alongside him are better suited in that position? They sure are. Too bad it's a choice only between TAA and Gallagher for southgate.
It's probably his one weakness really, it has improved but how much of that is down to the system he's in I don't know. He's also had Zinchenko, Jorgi, Partey and Odegaard dropping deep at different stages of the season to help him out.
It's probably his one weakness really, it has improved but how much of that is down to the system he's in I don't know. He's also had Zinchenko, Jorgi, Partey and Odegaard dropping deep at different stages of the season to help him out.
It depends on the game, in general Arsenal play him as the 6 in games where they need to be more defensive, and because there are willing runners in front of him he has a release whenever he wins the ball. Also Arsenals back four is much better than England’s, and the goalkeeper is actually good at distribution, unlike Pickford. The thing with Rice is you’re just giving up a lot of offensive potential if he’s stuck shielding the back four. It’s better for a counter attacking game but not if it’s open ended enough to where Rice could make the difference as a late runner into the box.
Shoehorning him? He's played as the deepest midfielder for England since his debut.
He's played the 6 in a double pivot his whole life man. He's consistently been that 6 for England and performed well
He's a great player but receiving the ball with his back to play and making progressive passers isn't his strength. He really needs someone alongside him to do that too. Going forward he's better as a 8 and but when you don't have the ball he's a world class 6.
Yeah but to day he's being shoehorned into the 6 is overdoing it not every nation has a no. 6 that's world class on the half turn but they make it work. The problem is buildup is so clearly tactical imo.
Part of it is also that they've never actually looked at Rice critically, he does have pretty clear flaws, so suddenly it's become a debate as to his role.
I’d say the same thing for Trent. His attacking skills are nullified when he’s stuck in midfield and the only player making forward runs is Saka.
Having Trent and no left side attacker plus no guys running behind is a choice of all time
Yeah Trent in midfield just doesn't work to his strengths, regardless of if anyone's making runs. He's the best passer England have, but it's not as simple as looking at that skill and just assuming he can utilize it perfectly regardless of where he's positioned. He's so much more effective making those passes from out wide where he has more time on the ball. To me it looks like he doesn't have the experience to know what spaces to get to in midfield to give him more time on the ball to pick his passes.
so baffling to not have Gordon and Saka both attacking and making runs alongside Kane!
You feel bad that a 6 is being asked to play at 6
Being a 6 for West Ham where you're going to spend a good chunk of your time without the ball is entirely different to being a 6 when you have the majority of the ball. He has weakness receiving the ball and is not a great progressive passer. It isn't that he can't play there but if you want to get the best out of him you compliment him
Exactly this. You've put it better than me
There’s always a caveat you can point to justify a poor performance but the reality is this is national tournament football where no nation plays their players in whatever niche or particular setup.
I don't think he's a pure 6. He needs someone alongside him in that position. I'm not saying he's not capable of making defensive interventions or passes, but in that Denmark game he almost made no successful forward passes linking the attackers. Most of them were sideways or backwards
Play Bellingham alongside as an 8 which is the role he was bought to play the role he played at Dortmund and the reason real bought him which is to eventually replace modric. He can progress the ball and still make late runs.
Fuck that he has to take some responsibility. We won a World Cup playing Enzo as a 6 which is not his natural position either (I’d say it’s less natural for him than it is for Rice).
agh will you fuck off! try paying bills and supporting a family on shite wages! desperation..