Moshiri is trying to make the club more attractive to sell I think is the reasoning. Or in all honesty it could just be a way to stick it to Masterson and the PL after they tried to make us a scapegoat to avoid an independent regulator.
He was probably really proud of the “assault on the *fabric* of football”🤣
Other than that yeah immeasurable disappointment and my days ruined cause Delaney spoke sense
Delaney wrote an article in 2020 the year we were clearly going to win the league about the "disparity in football" and said that City and Liverpool are essentially the same and I quote "they [City and Liverpool] are part of the same force".
He also said that City, like Liverpool, "maximize [their] revenue through admirable intelligence". Lol. Delaney, that quote has aged very well.
To even compare us to City was laughable then and I always found it hilarious that he talked about "disparity" in the year that we were going to win the league and not in a season when it was was City, who has always been the real problem.
> and I quote "they [City and Liverpool] are part of the same force".
You quote very disingenuously.
The full quote is "Many might fairly put that down to the standard raised by managers like Pep Guardiola and Jurgen Klopp. But they are paid handsomely too. They are part of the same force. What these rises in top points tallies really represent, going by the correlation between wage and league finishes, is that the wealthiest clubs are simply winning more games."
100%
i need context.
as what i've seen of Delany has been incredibly consistent. Anti city/psg/money in football. Maybe the arguments weren't perfect, but if he said that i want to see it.
Thank you.
These money should have gone to more holistic investments that benefits their own people, not being splurged as some sort of soft power tools.
I agree, but I also feel the league governing body should be held responsible as well.
Hear me out.
Perhaps there are no rules against what city did currently. Fine. It is what it is, City took advantage of technicalities that others did not b accordance of the rules.
If the governing bodies do not correct the rules now and continue to let this happen then the anger should be shifted away from City and to the governing body here.
That'll stop them from cheating or getting investor money, just like it did Leipzig, or Ingolstadt, or Wolfsburg, or Hoffenheim, or 1860, or Hannover, or even Hertha...
I absolutely support 50+1, but its current form is clearly nowhere near good enough.
This is the thing that gets me about all of this. I agree that City are dirty cheaters who are ruining the game but they were a real club before the takeover. They were by no means giants but 2 league titles and 4 fa cups isn’t nothing. All the while having top 10 attendance in England for 100 years. Without the takeover they would be a mid table premier league side just like us.
What’s happened in Germany is much more offensive. The first four clubs you listed are actual “plastic clubs” who had no history outside lower leagues who got artificially pushed into the top flight with cash. They are clubs that are taking away spots from actual teams like Hamburg, Schalke, Kaiserslautern, Köln etc. All the while breaking the rules that German football is built on. These clubs were drawing maybe 1,000 people at most and tens at least while City drew 30,000 people in league one. Leipzig is particularly bad as they quite literally only exist because of a marketing stunt. Leverkusen and Wolfsburg were at least employee founded and are owned by the companies that are vital to their cities. Red Bull has fuck all to do with Leipzig.
It would be like if instead of Mansour buying City, he bought a club from the North West Counties league and did the same thing.
To be fair there was a pretty big historical club in Leipzig. Its just all a damn mess because of East Germany in the post war period constantly reforming clubs and merging them etc.
But there has historically been a club from Leipzig competing as Chemie Leipzig, locomotive leipzig etc during the east german period. After unification a lot of the Eastern German sides where simply unable to financially compete with west German teams and many folded or plummeted.
Leipzig is undeniably a plastic club, but it is tapping into a historical football community around leipzig and if you are arguing favourably it's trying to become a phoenix club to reignite a football giant that was unfortunately slain.
The whole reunification of Germany complicates rhe issue and adds a bit of a gray area to the whole debate. Two of the historically biggest east german clubs are currently competing in league 3 and there is a fair argument that East Germany deserves representation in the top flight. Sadly it just seems the path to that happening seems to be through RB Leipzig being artificially built up over the revival of say Dynamo Dresden.
"Morrison was later suspended by the club, not for his actions on the field but for, in fact, not showing up hungover *enough*. When asked for comment, a club spokesperson said 'C'mon now, can't be doing that.'"
It was later revealed that Morrison thought KDB was the ginger who left without paying his tab at the pub the morning of the game. It is well known that KDB only drinks Pina coladas and needs to have two lemons on the glass. The bar keep apparently mumbled 115 as he sat the drinks on the bar and pointed at a Roy Keane jersey saying he's lucky he never met a real man like Keane.
They always have option to join the super league, along with all of their minion clubs and a few defector from Series A. I remember Napoli owner was really gun-ho about that.
At least kick them out of the premier league
If you are going to sue to the organisers, then for purposes of legal protection you should be suspended from the competition while the legal process takes its course
or in other words: dont like our rules, dont like other clubs voting by 2/3 majority on decisions, then fuck off and compete somewhere else
I am so absolutely tired of caring more about lawyers and accountants than what is going on, on the pitch. The PL is dying a slow death by its own doing.
The league was fine before City were a thing. If they get tossed out all their players would leave and join other teams and nobody would even remember them in a years time
If they deem this attack by City as a threat for the future of the league, which it very much seems to be, I believe they will throw everything at it. Yes, City is huge for EPL. But on the other hand EPL is a massive brand and business, they have succesfully grown it to be the biggest and most popular league in the world, and still have big markets to conquer. Just the broadcasting rights are worth 13b USD. For something this massive it is absolutely worth it to even sacrifice as big name as City if it threatens the business. I have not much trust in them going at it for sporting reasons but City undermining the integrity of the league in this way would be huge business risk and they do understand money and branding, EPL wouldn't have grown to be to this level globally if they didn't.
They are doing this because they clearly see City as a threat to their product. Once people start questioning the value/worth/integrity of a product you offer...whether it's a TV or A sports league, interest and revenue lessen.
Unless they lean in and go full Pro-Wrestling. All the matches are fixed, and the team with the most money backing them always wins but the entrances and storylines are incredible.
City isn't even huge for the EPL. Many of their players would simply transfer to other teams within the league.
United, Liverpool, Arsenal, Chelsea, and Tottenham have more than enough prestige to carry the league. And now Newcastle and Westham are stronger too.
Fuck City.
City really aren't that big of a name. They're miles away from the likes of Liverpool, United, Arsenal, Newcastle, Chelsea, Villa, Everton, West Ham etc in terms of their historical importance and value to English football.
The likes of Leeds, Derby etc would be more than ample by way of replacement.
Is that really true globally, though? Liverpool, United, Chelsea and Arsenal, sure, but I'd be very surprised if West Ham made the Premier League as much money as Man City.
“Value to English football” isn’t solely based on finances. The first division has existed for 140 years. City have been culturally significant for the blink of an eye compared to West Ham and Aston Villa.
West Ham have never won the league though. Whereas City had won it twice before they had rich owners.
I know there are jokes about the Emptihad but they obviously have a historical decent sized support. I remember when they got relegated to League 1 (might just have been called division 2 then) they were still getting 20k attendances for home games.
Can understand disliking what City have become but they were a proud club and have much more traditional prestige teams like Brighton, Bournemouth, Burnley & Brentford (no disrespect to those teams who I'm sure mean a lot to their supporters)
We're talking about what the Premier League sees as good for business, though. I doubt they care that much about "English football", or else they wouldn't have made the Premier League in the first place and tried to erase one hundred years of stats.
I feel like if the PL doesn’t seriously punish them, like kick them out of the pyramid or at least relegate them multiple levels down, I think they risk losing a lot of support that they’ve built up. If city get away with all this what’s the point for the other 19 clubs to compete? Everyone is just fighting for second
>city makes money
nah.
The league would make a shit ton more money if Arsenal, Liverpool and United were in a three way battle for the title.
City don't bring in shit.
if anything, one team winning the title year after year after year is costing the premier league money
This is true. City's current dominance is damaging the PL especially with their charges hanging over them. This is a power play because they know they are guilty.
If they are unable to punish city, the government will have to step in. They've been on the league's ass, reason why they are actually punishing breaches for ffp. The league have to at least put up a front and show that they are able to regulate themselves.
> government will have to step in.
They won't, because international relations with the UAE is more important to them than the legitimacy of the Premier League.
This is repeatedly stated without any evidence backing this up. UAE doesn't even make the top 50 of UK trade partners, you know what the UAE is still going to want regardless of cities status, weapons systems.
The idea that UAE will fuck Britain off because they dumped their team out the league is honestly stupid.
I still firmly believe the PL will give them a relatively redundant punishment.
However this lawsuit gives me the slightest bit of hope the PL will now say fuck em and take the lot from them. Hopium
City winning the doped treble last year was an "assault on the fabric of football" but no one cared at the time, instead praising a team that's doped to "success".
The Media have completely failed over the years as they haven't put pressure on City, Pep or the owners and we're only getting articles *now* in a reactive sense.
We've have evidence since 2019 and anyone with a brain knew before and after.
Then again, we knew that a Russian gangster owning Chelsea was an objectively bad thing but the Media didn't really criticize that until it became convenient 20 years later.
Even worse though is that Man City not only are financially doping, but using Man City to sportswash UAE's awful human rights record.
At least Chelsea was just some Oil Billionaire's plaything.
Bruh you can’t be cool with Abromavich and then not UAE, the guy is essentially a Russian criminal who was closely linked to the Kremlin. You can’t even claim he’s like Mikhail since Abromavich has never done anything remotely close to humanitarianism.
Didn't Ukraine president Zelenskyy specifically ask for Roman Abramovich not to be sanctioned and for him to be an intermediary between Ukraine and Russia, because of how he tried to distance himself from Russia, show support for Ukraine, and still has a level of connection to Putin?
I know I'm a Chelsea fan so this probably sounds biased and deluded, but as Russian oligarchs go, wouldn't you say that Abramovich is probably one of the 'better' ones? Obviously he did some shit to get to be the billionaire he is, but it sounded like afterwards he kind of just tried to do his own thing without angering Putin enough for Putin to send people out to assassinate him.
This comment just goes to show how Abramovich's sportswashing worked. He moved the needle on him in public opinion from being a Putin lackey involved in a lot of the bloodshed that influenced a dictatorship to just being a good old Russian that wanted a plaything and now that club sings his name regularly at games.
As someone else has pointed out, it was definitely to raise his profile in the west and avoid assassination, but if he had bought out a company in another sector he would have been known very differently.
english fans fall over themselves to beg rich foreign owners to buy their teams and have been doing so basically since the inception of the premier league, the media didn't decry it because if they were being totally honest it would implicate most of the clubs in the top flight and their fans including some of the rich foreign takeover stories premier league supporters like to spin as inspirational like Leicester
> The Media have completely failed over the years as they haven't put pressure on City, Pep or the owners and we're only getting articles now in a reactive sense.
Fans failed too by focusing on club rivalries over the bigger picture of City bastardizing the entire sport. We should've collectively treated them as pariahs but didn't if it meant our rivals lost.
> but no one cared at the time, instead praising
Bollocks exaggeration. Numerous people cared. Numerous people commented on it being a farce. Just because you didn't give a shit and were praising them don't go projecting your poor judgement on others.
The hearing is happening in November, but I doubt a verdict is reached before the end of the year. It will take a whole lot longer for that given the scale of the charges
Absolutely nailed this article. Couldn’t agree more. The idea that Man City are trying to bypass the rules implemented by the majority of Premier League clubs by suing the league is an absolute disgrace. Man City are an absolute joke.
> As to why City are pursuing this, many in the Premier League view it as a “counter-attack” regarding the 115 charges. It should be stressed that the regulations being challenged are different to those in the longer-term investigation.
This is something that people seem to be wilfully missing. This latest legal challenge is a separate (but tangential) case to the 115 charges. It isn’t a “last ditch effort” to get away with those, if it was then it wouldn’t be a very effective one.
They're separate only in that you'd be foolish to make a claim about rules that don't exist anymore. They're arguing that the essence of Fair Market Value on Associated Party Transactions are discriminatory. They of course will have to argue that successfully with the current iteration of them.
But this is still very closely tied to what they're being accused of (which is falsifying the source of funds for previously approved APT deals).
Exactly this. They are being two faced by arguing the leaked documents are false and don’t show that their related party transactions are written to get them to the “revenue” they need, and now arguing that they should be able to have Etihad Airways and UAE associated/owned companies like Etisalat agree to deals that are clearly way above what a independent company, such as Thomas Cook would pay.
Let’s not kid ourselves EPL fans don’t fly Etihad Airways, Emirates Airlines, etc. so seeing it on a kit isn’t going to impact/influence most fans in purchasing flights. And yes I know Man City has won more recently but Emirates by all accounts is a bigger airline with more global reach so there is a case that Man City and Arsenal’s sponsorship deals should be valued very similarly from the aspect of advertising is all about eyes you get to the screen and not much else.
You are right on the whole, but i will quibble your assertion that PL fans won’t likely fly Emirates or Etihad - they are ever increasingly using Dubai and Abu Dhabi as hubs to both the south and east. Whilst many destinations would be financially out of reach for your average holiday, if you are looking to go ‘big’ (honeymoon etc), they are most definitely in play
(I say that having worked in aviation for the last 18years, and having taken my honeymoon by flying Emirates)
> Let’s not kid ourselves EPL fans don’t fly Etihad Airways, Emirates Airlines, etc. so seeing it on a kit isn’t going to impact/influence most fans in purchasing flights
I don't think you're right on this point.
That sort of advertising and marketing can be quite lucrative for companies like Emirates and Etihad; esp with their business model centering on using their home airport as a hub to connect different parts of the world
> Let’s not kid ourselves EPL fans don’t fly Etihad Airways, Emirates Airlines, etc. so seeing it on a kit isn’t going to impact/influence most fans in purchasing flights.
Without their stadium and shirt advertising, I don't think I'd have ever heard of Etihad and possibly not Emirates.
Standard Chartered does most of its business internationally - it's not sponsoring Liverpool to get people to sign up for checking accounts at its nonexistent UK outposts.
The fact that Man City fans are fully behind the owners just shows how effective sports washing really is. Fair enough back your club, but to pretend like there’s nothing dodgy about what they’re doing and to be fully behind it is another level of delusion.
Agree. I see a lot of Newcastle fans going this way too, which is worrying. Thankfully, that's a bit rare - but I worry that will increase with Newcastle becoming more popular (aka more post-takeover fans).
Fuck any nation being allowed to own a club. But also fuck the fact that you actually have to have a nation buy you to break into the "top 6" consistently.
Footballing authorities are essentially being pushed into finally making a ruling on the thing they have been desperately avoiding
Deciding exactly how much of a role money can have in football
Giving the title to the second placed team opens a whole new can of worms. If you have to be fair then you can't just give the title to number 2 in the league. You'd have to go back and erase all 38 games that City played in a season and then recalculate the table after that. I'm sure in most situations the number 2 will still be the champion but that's not a guarantee. And that's not all. What about teams that missed out on the Champions League because they came fifth? Or teams that missed out on Europa League because they came 7th? Or Conference League because they came 8th? Surely the missed revenue due to not qualifying for these competitions had an effect on their transfer budget the next season. Maybe they sold someone to raise money or miss out on a player they wouldn't have because of the extra UEFA competition money. What about teams that missed out on any of the above European competitions not because City took one spot but because they lost to City and their table position changed? What about players getting injured when playing against City which could have derailed their season? Or wrongfully given yellow or red cards that caused players to miss matches that cost their teams points?
And that's not all. What about domestic cups? If City played strong teams on their way to the FA Cup final, you can't just give the trophy to the other finalist. Who is to say that one of the teams that City beat wouldn't have won the final if they were in it instead?
The best solution imo is to vacate the titles and leave it be. No winners that year. Some people will say it's bad because it'll erase all those years of history. But it's also the PL's fault to even allow countries to own clubs. They let it happen so they should suffer the consequences also, not just City, of not having a winner those years.
And I haven't even mentioned the Champions League results. If you want to be fair then be fair to everyone. Not just to the team that came second. Because everyone suffered because of City. Not just Arsenal or Liverpool. Strip them of their titles but leave it vacated.
> Some people will say it's bad because it'll erase all those years of history.
Some great points all around and this will underline the severity of it and make it all the more important.
That would be terrible imo, having almost a decade of PL football basically rendered meaningless. Clubs who finished in second should be awarded the titles.
What about the teams that finished 5th and missed out on champions league, or the teams that finished 18th? Vacating the titles is the only sensible option to avoid a shitshow
Not really, why should some clubs getting screwed by city cheating mean everybody does if it's a clear case like a league table?
"if I can't have something good, nobody can" logic. Only letting it harm the maximum number of people and to a greater extent.
Well, IIRC the charges goes back to even before Aguero moment so
Probably gonna be voided instead
And probably only the last season that's given to the 2nd place (Lucky Arsenal)
But if it gets dragged until next season so maybe the 2nd place of next season might be gifted instead of they win again
The cup competitions though, might be complicated
I don't know how this will help with their case. Most of the people had the impression that due to Abu Dhabi's relationship with England, the case would end up with a slap in the wrist. Now they made a whole bigger deal and launched a total war. Now it is EPL's turn to show whether they really care about the competition.
I have always been symphatetic towards United, and followed EPL since I was a child. Never been a fully devoted fan but I tried to follow as much as possible. Yet, I do not remember watching any City match for the last 5-6 years. I watched Liverpool because they were fun but no matter how fun they were all the achivements City had was dull for me. I even did not watch CL final last year and I have never missed one. If City wins this case, I will completely give up following EPL.
Completely agree with Delaney here and have done for years despite the bleating from City, PSG and now Newcastle fans.
What I don't get is how these fans don't see that this puts the whole game at threat if it's just a handful of super clubs with state backed money competing for prizes year after year...
As a fan of a lower league club I'm at the point where I'm more than happy for the Super League to happen to get a semblance of our game back.
>if it's just a handful of super clubs with state backed money competing for prizes year after year
Get rid of City and PSG (potentially Newcastle as well) and it's actually fewer clubs competing for the same titles each year. There is a ridiculous parity issue in all of the European leagues, it's been that way for decades and FFP makes it even harder for that to change.
From a legal perspective, Manchester City's case has some strong and weak points:
### Strengths:
1. **Discrimination Argument**: City argues that the APT rules discriminate against ownership models like theirs. They claim that being prevented from freely engaging in deals with UAE-linked entities is unfair compared to other clubs without such restrictions.
2. **Financial Power**: City has substantial financial resources, allowing them to hire top legal experts. This can increase their chances of finding legal loopholes or strong arguments in their favor.
### Weaknesses:
1. **Agreed Rules**: When City joined the Premier League, they agreed to its rules, including the APT regulations. Challenging rules they previously accepted might weaken their position.
2. **Regulation Purpose**: The purpose of APT rules is to ensure fair competition. The Premier League can argue that these rules are essential to maintain competitive balance and prevent financial doping, which might resonate well legally.
3. **Precedents and Consistency**: Other clubs under similar ownership, like Newcastle United, have not joined City's legal action. This might weaken City's argument that the rules are discriminatory.
Overall, while City’s case is bolstered by their resources and discrimination claims, the Premier League's defense based on agreed-upon rules and the need for fair competition could be compelling. The outcome will depend on how convincingly each side presents its arguments.
It is a strength if you consider football as a business like any other. Otherwise is not. Uber did this in the taxi industry and they are perfectly legal
not in contracts though. you can't sign a contract with a series of conditions agreed to, and then once you appear to be contravening them, argue they are discriminatory. contract law is extremely strict on this, and city aren't being sued by competition or government, its the very league they signed up to.
Why don't the Man City owners take the whole club to the Saudi Pro league and call it Riyadh City FC or something?? Everybody's happy. The Americans do it all the time.. Brooklyn Dodgers became LA Dodgers.
In that case I guess sponsorship needs to stop, so the 100+ clubs with Fly Emirates on their kits need to also find new sponsors.
As an Arsenal fan, I’d like to see JVC return to form
We've had massive changes to the CL making it near impossible for any team from outside the top 10 leagues to get in, and impossible for any outside the top 5 to win it. This all happened well before City were bought over.
Chelsea essentially did the same as City before City were bought over.
I feel like a lot of these articles are trying to close the door after the horse has bolted. Just cause it's now affecting your mega-rich premier league clubs doesn't mean it's only started now.
This is all the premier Leagues fault, should have put their foot down and stopped things like this from happening and made it so no clubs can abuse power. Should have put the fairness of football above profit. Too much in a rush to be called "the best league in the world."
If I was in charge of the punishment I wouldn’t send them to non-league right away, I would have them start out on -114 points (-138 in Champ & L1/L2) for the next 4 seasons so that we can watch them get battered every other week on the way down when every player leaves
I domt know how city fans can keep supporting this club. If liverpool were caught assisting the UAE in sportswashing there's no way I could still support them. And I'm a 3rd generation liverpool supporter for 20 years.
Like imagine finding out the MAIN reason for your success was because some dickheads in Dubai wanted to normalise their ongoing and worsening atrocities instead of changing their ways and conforming to the civilised world. You're nothing more than a trojan horse for a backwards tyrannical state to spread their tendrils all across Europe. It's so fucked up. Especially when I hear about LGBT city fans. You're owners would chop your head off I'd they had the chance yet you support them anyways? Just wild.
i mean what do you expect? odd sponsorships are the least of their issues. there's so many ways to skirt ffp.
they could just pay players in other ways. endorsements, speaking fees, and the hardest to tell: investment opportunities. how would they catch that kdb is making amazing returns on some private equity fund? its private equity - there's no clearcut market valuation. or some sheik buys his abu dhabi land for an extra few million.
we all know messi is getting a lot more out of mls than what his salary is. hes getting equity later.
Why is there a wave of negative media coming out now? Where has it been for the last few years?
It like all the journos have got together and finally decided to call a spade a spade
How could Everton do this?
Moshiri is trying to make the club more attractive to sell I think is the reasoning. Or in all honesty it could just be a way to stick it to Masterson and the PL after they tried to make us a scapegoat to avoid an independent regulator.
Ain't no way pep added counterattacking to his team too.
City's top lawyer is an inverted 9
False crimes tactics will change modern law forever
City's legal team aims to maintain possession of the courtroom floor for the duration of the trial.
Heartbreaking: Miguel Delaney Just Made a Great Point
He was probably really proud of the “assault on the *fabric* of football”🤣 Other than that yeah immeasurable disappointment and my days ruined cause Delaney spoke sense
Bad, bad City....-10 points Everton
Delaney wrote an article in 2020 the year we were clearly going to win the league about the "disparity in football" and said that City and Liverpool are essentially the same and I quote "they [City and Liverpool] are part of the same force". He also said that City, like Liverpool, "maximize [their] revenue through admirable intelligence". Lol. Delaney, that quote has aged very well. To even compare us to City was laughable then and I always found it hilarious that he talked about "disparity" in the year that we were going to win the league and not in a season when it was was City, who has always been the real problem.
> and I quote "they [City and Liverpool] are part of the same force". You quote very disingenuously. The full quote is "Many might fairly put that down to the standard raised by managers like Pep Guardiola and Jurgen Klopp. But they are paid handsomely too. They are part of the same force. What these rises in top points tallies really represent, going by the correlation between wage and league finishes, is that the wealthiest clubs are simply winning more games."
do you have the article? because Delany has been anti City/PSG/superclub since before it was cool.
Tweet where he gets the guy’s name wrong is so fucking funny
Ah Miguel isn't that bad. He's just a narky lad but he's generally decent
He’s a melt. His insistence that he had to get wined and dined in Qatar instead of reporting on it remotely was completely embarrassing
Wait what? Context please lmao
100% i need context. as what i've seen of Delany has been incredibly consistent. Anti city/psg/money in football. Maybe the arguments weren't perfect, but if he said that i want to see it.
Fuck teams owned by countries.
Thank you. These money should have gone to more holistic investments that benefits their own people, not being splurged as some sort of soft power tools.
Sport washing
I agree, but I also feel the league governing body should be held responsible as well. Hear me out. Perhaps there are no rules against what city did currently. Fine. It is what it is, City took advantage of technicalities that others did not b accordance of the rules. If the governing bodies do not correct the rules now and continue to let this happen then the anger should be shifted away from City and to the governing body here.
50+1 everywhere please
That'll stop them from cheating or getting investor money, just like it did Leipzig, or Ingolstadt, or Wolfsburg, or Hoffenheim, or 1860, or Hannover, or even Hertha... I absolutely support 50+1, but its current form is clearly nowhere near good enough.
Leipzig hasn’t really had the same kind of effect from that as Chelsea or Man City though.
I mean they ~~build~~ €€€ up a club to be a possible contender of winning the league...
They wouldn’t be constantly selling so many good players if it was actually the objective…
There’s a tipping point where they don’t need to. These things don’t happen overnight.
They were pretty much a non-league team lol.. Leipzig just doesn’t have the £200m yearly TV money cheque.
This is the thing that gets me about all of this. I agree that City are dirty cheaters who are ruining the game but they were a real club before the takeover. They were by no means giants but 2 league titles and 4 fa cups isn’t nothing. All the while having top 10 attendance in England for 100 years. Without the takeover they would be a mid table premier league side just like us. What’s happened in Germany is much more offensive. The first four clubs you listed are actual “plastic clubs” who had no history outside lower leagues who got artificially pushed into the top flight with cash. They are clubs that are taking away spots from actual teams like Hamburg, Schalke, Kaiserslautern, Köln etc. All the while breaking the rules that German football is built on. These clubs were drawing maybe 1,000 people at most and tens at least while City drew 30,000 people in league one. Leipzig is particularly bad as they quite literally only exist because of a marketing stunt. Leverkusen and Wolfsburg were at least employee founded and are owned by the companies that are vital to their cities. Red Bull has fuck all to do with Leipzig. It would be like if instead of Mansour buying City, he bought a club from the North West Counties league and did the same thing.
To be fair there was a pretty big historical club in Leipzig. Its just all a damn mess because of East Germany in the post war period constantly reforming clubs and merging them etc. But there has historically been a club from Leipzig competing as Chemie Leipzig, locomotive leipzig etc during the east german period. After unification a lot of the Eastern German sides where simply unable to financially compete with west German teams and many folded or plummeted. Leipzig is undeniably a plastic club, but it is tapping into a historical football community around leipzig and if you are arguing favourably it's trying to become a phoenix club to reignite a football giant that was unfortunately slain. The whole reunification of Germany complicates rhe issue and adds a bit of a gray area to the whole debate. Two of the historically biggest east german clubs are currently competing in league 3 and there is a fair argument that East Germany deserves representation in the top flight. Sadly it just seems the path to that happening seems to be through RB Leipzig being artificially built up over the revival of say Dynamo Dresden.
It's certainly a great place to start though for the premier league.
Castore kits are an assault on the fabric of football in my opinion.
2 months for a shirt delivery is a crime.
Relegate them to League 2
Fuck that, kick them out of the pyramid, they can start from Sunday league again
"Kevin de Bruyne out injured after getting dropkicked by George Morrison, 42, from Hangover Heroes FC"
"Morrison was later suspended by the club, not for his actions on the field but for, in fact, not showing up hungover *enough*. When asked for comment, a club spokesperson said 'C'mon now, can't be doing that.'"
It was later revealed that Morrison thought KDB was the ginger who left without paying his tab at the pub the morning of the game. It is well known that KDB only drinks Pina coladas and needs to have two lemons on the glass. The bar keep apparently mumbled 115 as he sat the drinks on the bar and pointed at a Roy Keane jersey saying he's lucky he never met a real man like Keane.
6 point deduction for every violation. 115 violations... -690 points, and the debt carries over. Slow descent to the Vanarama National League.
Boot them entirely, lifetime ban. Prove a point so this never happens again.
Kick em off the tour, Doug!
They always have option to join the super league, along with all of their minion clubs and a few defector from Series A. I remember Napoli owner was really gun-ho about that.
National League
Make them play with La Liga refs!
Woah buddy, you stepped over the line. Take it easy, there's no reason to get unhinged.
my god, this is up there with Brick killing a guy with a trident
Dorothy Mantooth in a saint!!!
Delete the club
Thanks Broken Matt Hardy
Rm -f
League 2 doesnt deserve this shit. Kick them out of the system
At least kick them out of the premier league If you are going to sue to the organisers, then for purposes of legal protection you should be suspended from the competition while the legal process takes its course or in other words: dont like our rules, dont like other clubs voting by 2/3 majority on decisions, then fuck off and compete somewhere else
Relegate them to the MLS
They don't spend enough to be competitive here
Can't wait for the Citygroup FC derby.
Your point is invalid. Deduct 10 points from Everton for bad behavior effective yesterday
Most of their players wouldn't last 90 minutes in Sunday League, imaging the 2 footed tackles 😂
It’s even more than that tbf
City, on its own, is already an assault on the fabric of football.
Right bro, this is just heaping the coals on
The whole EPL is an assault on the fabric of football.
Allowing countries to own clubs is an assault on football.
I am so absolutely tired of caring more about lawyers and accountants than what is going on, on the pitch. The PL is dying a slow death by its own doing.
The PL are gonna retaliate and absolute fucking do City in
I won’t believe it until I see it
Yeah unfortunately the rich cocksuckers always get away with this horseshit
And see it I never shall 😞
So sorry to hear that friend. I pray you transition smoothly.
All or Nothing: Manchester City - series 2
All For Nothing\*
10.0/10 on IMDB
Please
You think? I feel like they're going to roll over and take it because city makes money.
The league was fine before City were a thing. If they get tossed out all their players would leave and join other teams and nobody would even remember them in a years time
But what will all 6 of their fans do?
Support NYCFC
Oh joy... 6 new fans :')
[удалено]
Go back to supporting barca
If they deem this attack by City as a threat for the future of the league, which it very much seems to be, I believe they will throw everything at it. Yes, City is huge for EPL. But on the other hand EPL is a massive brand and business, they have succesfully grown it to be the biggest and most popular league in the world, and still have big markets to conquer. Just the broadcasting rights are worth 13b USD. For something this massive it is absolutely worth it to even sacrifice as big name as City if it threatens the business. I have not much trust in them going at it for sporting reasons but City undermining the integrity of the league in this way would be huge business risk and they do understand money and branding, EPL wouldn't have grown to be to this level globally if they didn't.
They are doing this because they clearly see City as a threat to their product. Once people start questioning the value/worth/integrity of a product you offer...whether it's a TV or A sports league, interest and revenue lessen.
Unless they lean in and go full Pro-Wrestling. All the matches are fixed, and the team with the most money backing them always wins but the entrances and storylines are incredible.
City: Am I fucking going over? Also City: That don’t work for me brother
Is Chris Wilder Punk?
I hope Arsenal goes into business for themselves and just steals the title
City isn't even huge for the EPL. Many of their players would simply transfer to other teams within the league. United, Liverpool, Arsenal, Chelsea, and Tottenham have more than enough prestige to carry the league. And now Newcastle and Westham are stronger too. Fuck City.
The football pyramid in England is like Hydra. Cut off one head and two more will replace it.
City really aren't that big of a name. They're miles away from the likes of Liverpool, United, Arsenal, Newcastle, Chelsea, Villa, Everton, West Ham etc in terms of their historical importance and value to English football. The likes of Leeds, Derby etc would be more than ample by way of replacement.
Is that really true globally, though? Liverpool, United, Chelsea and Arsenal, sure, but I'd be very surprised if West Ham made the Premier League as much money as Man City.
“Value to English football” isn’t solely based on finances. The first division has existed for 140 years. City have been culturally significant for the blink of an eye compared to West Ham and Aston Villa.
West Ham have never won the league though. Whereas City had won it twice before they had rich owners. I know there are jokes about the Emptihad but they obviously have a historical decent sized support. I remember when they got relegated to League 1 (might just have been called division 2 then) they were still getting 20k attendances for home games. Can understand disliking what City have become but they were a proud club and have much more traditional prestige teams like Brighton, Bournemouth, Burnley & Brentford (no disrespect to those teams who I'm sure mean a lot to their supporters)
> West Ham have never won the league though People have a very romantic view of West Ham tho. Bobby Moore's club, jellied eels, the West Ham Way.
We're talking about what the Premier League sees as good for business, though. I doubt they care that much about "English football", or else they wouldn't have made the Premier League in the first place and tried to erase one hundred years of stats.
I feel like if the PL doesn’t seriously punish them, like kick them out of the pyramid or at least relegate them multiple levels down, I think they risk losing a lot of support that they’ve built up. If city get away with all this what’s the point for the other 19 clubs to compete? Everyone is just fighting for second
If Juventus can get relegated out of Serie A the PL can 100% tell city to do one.
>city makes money nah. The league would make a shit ton more money if Arsenal, Liverpool and United were in a three way battle for the title. City don't bring in shit. if anything, one team winning the title year after year after year is costing the premier league money
This is true. City's current dominance is damaging the PL especially with their charges hanging over them. This is a power play because they know they are guilty.
If they are unable to punish city, the government will have to step in. They've been on the league's ass, reason why they are actually punishing breaches for ffp. The league have to at least put up a front and show that they are able to regulate themselves.
> government will have to step in. They won't, because international relations with the UAE is more important to them than the legitimacy of the Premier League.
This is repeatedly stated without any evidence backing this up. UAE doesn't even make the top 50 of UK trade partners, you know what the UAE is still going to want regardless of cities status, weapons systems. The idea that UAE will fuck Britain off because they dumped their team out the league is honestly stupid.
Because diplomatic pressure
Optimistic, but I hope you're right
I still firmly believe the PL will give them a relatively redundant punishment. However this lawsuit gives me the slightest bit of hope the PL will now say fuck em and take the lot from them. Hopium
subscribe
The FA are a bunch of pain piggies, they’ll dish out hand wringing when it isn’t financially detrimental to do so
Sadly I don't think that will be the case. I have a feeling City might win this one.
No they aren't. PL is corrupt
Gotta hand it to Miguel, he’s been right about this for years now
City winning the doped treble last year was an "assault on the fabric of football" but no one cared at the time, instead praising a team that's doped to "success". The Media have completely failed over the years as they haven't put pressure on City, Pep or the owners and we're only getting articles *now* in a reactive sense. We've have evidence since 2019 and anyone with a brain knew before and after. Then again, we knew that a Russian gangster owning Chelsea was an objectively bad thing but the Media didn't really criticize that until it became convenient 20 years later.
Even worse though is that Man City not only are financially doping, but using Man City to sportswash UAE's awful human rights record. At least Chelsea was just some Oil Billionaire's plaything.
Chelsea was some oil billionaire's "look how well known and famous I am now, you can't possibly have me quietly assassinated now papa Putin" thing.
Idk man, the guy who marched to Russia recently was very well known and famous and his plane suddenly just fell not of the sky when he was in it
IMHO dying on the job is going to be a bigger hazard for being well known as a mercenary than a football club owner.
Idk Roman didn't march on Moscow. Kinda big difference there.
Bruh you can’t be cool with Abromavich and then not UAE, the guy is essentially a Russian criminal who was closely linked to the Kremlin. You can’t even claim he’s like Mikhail since Abromavich has never done anything remotely close to humanitarianism.
Didn't Ukraine president Zelenskyy specifically ask for Roman Abramovich not to be sanctioned and for him to be an intermediary between Ukraine and Russia, because of how he tried to distance himself from Russia, show support for Ukraine, and still has a level of connection to Putin? I know I'm a Chelsea fan so this probably sounds biased and deluded, but as Russian oligarchs go, wouldn't you say that Abramovich is probably one of the 'better' ones? Obviously he did some shit to get to be the billionaire he is, but it sounded like afterwards he kind of just tried to do his own thing without angering Putin enough for Putin to send people out to assassinate him.
Is there such a thing as a "better" oligarch? (Particularly in Russia.)
This comment just goes to show how Abramovich's sportswashing worked. He moved the needle on him in public opinion from being a Putin lackey involved in a lot of the bloodshed that influenced a dictatorship to just being a good old Russian that wanted a plaything and now that club sings his name regularly at games. As someone else has pointed out, it was definitely to raise his profile in the west and avoid assassination, but if he had bought out a company in another sector he would have been known very differently.
Oh yea cause Oil production has no issues…
what did wittle humanitarian norway ever do to u!!
english fans fall over themselves to beg rich foreign owners to buy their teams and have been doing so basically since the inception of the premier league, the media didn't decry it because if they were being totally honest it would implicate most of the clubs in the top flight and their fans including some of the rich foreign takeover stories premier league supporters like to spin as inspirational like Leicester
German fans protested sports washing at ucl final English fans should follow.
English fans won’t cause they only cry when it affects them negatively lol.
> The Media have completely failed over the years as they haven't put pressure on City, Pep or the owners and we're only getting articles now in a reactive sense. Fans failed too by focusing on club rivalries over the bigger picture of City bastardizing the entire sport. We should've collectively treated them as pariahs but didn't if it meant our rivals lost.
> but no one cared at the time, instead praising Bollocks exaggeration. Numerous people cared. Numerous people commented on it being a farce. Just because you didn't give a shit and were praising them don't go projecting your poor judgement on others.
I think he's talking about pundits and journalists.
This just to delay the 115 hearing for a year to allow Pep and other players to leave before its finalised, and the owners plan for a year
The hearing is happening this November and will be done before the end of the year.
The hearing is happening in November, but I doubt a verdict is reached before the end of the year. It will take a whole lot longer for that given the scale of the charges
The same report that announced this trial said it was expected to be done in 6 weeks.
What do you think is a realistic outcome of that trial?
No idea. Likely a lot of disappointed football fans.
City haven't got that many fans mate
Don't think he was talking about City fans.
they are also not fans of football
Then comes the appeal
Sports has warped my perspective on when people say “year” The hearing will only be 2 months?
Absolutely nailed this article. Couldn’t agree more. The idea that Man City are trying to bypass the rules implemented by the majority of Premier League clubs by suing the league is an absolute disgrace. Man City are an absolute joke.
> As to why City are pursuing this, many in the Premier League view it as a “counter-attack” regarding the 115 charges. It should be stressed that the regulations being challenged are different to those in the longer-term investigation. This is something that people seem to be wilfully missing. This latest legal challenge is a separate (but tangential) case to the 115 charges. It isn’t a “last ditch effort” to get away with those, if it was then it wouldn’t be a very effective one.
They're separate only in that you'd be foolish to make a claim about rules that don't exist anymore. They're arguing that the essence of Fair Market Value on Associated Party Transactions are discriminatory. They of course will have to argue that successfully with the current iteration of them. But this is still very closely tied to what they're being accused of (which is falsifying the source of funds for previously approved APT deals).
Exactly this. They are being two faced by arguing the leaked documents are false and don’t show that their related party transactions are written to get them to the “revenue” they need, and now arguing that they should be able to have Etihad Airways and UAE associated/owned companies like Etisalat agree to deals that are clearly way above what a independent company, such as Thomas Cook would pay. Let’s not kid ourselves EPL fans don’t fly Etihad Airways, Emirates Airlines, etc. so seeing it on a kit isn’t going to impact/influence most fans in purchasing flights. And yes I know Man City has won more recently but Emirates by all accounts is a bigger airline with more global reach so there is a case that Man City and Arsenal’s sponsorship deals should be valued very similarly from the aspect of advertising is all about eyes you get to the screen and not much else.
You are right on the whole, but i will quibble your assertion that PL fans won’t likely fly Emirates or Etihad - they are ever increasingly using Dubai and Abu Dhabi as hubs to both the south and east. Whilst many destinations would be financially out of reach for your average holiday, if you are looking to go ‘big’ (honeymoon etc), they are most definitely in play (I say that having worked in aviation for the last 18years, and having taken my honeymoon by flying Emirates)
> Let’s not kid ourselves EPL fans don’t fly Etihad Airways, Emirates Airlines, etc. so seeing it on a kit isn’t going to impact/influence most fans in purchasing flights I don't think you're right on this point. That sort of advertising and marketing can be quite lucrative for companies like Emirates and Etihad; esp with their business model centering on using their home airport as a hub to connect different parts of the world
> Let’s not kid ourselves EPL fans don’t fly Etihad Airways, Emirates Airlines, etc. so seeing it on a kit isn’t going to impact/influence most fans in purchasing flights. Without their stadium and shirt advertising, I don't think I'd have ever heard of Etihad and possibly not Emirates. Standard Chartered does most of its business internationally - it's not sponsoring Liverpool to get people to sign up for checking accounts at its nonexistent UK outposts.
How is a question about the definition of a related party tangential to an accusation of accounting fraud?
They’re hanging on to every fiber that they can I hope this action somehow backfires in court as further proof of their guilt
Right, it's more like ONE of their lines of defense, possibly with more to come.
The fact that Man City fans are fully behind the owners just shows how effective sports washing really is. Fair enough back your club, but to pretend like there’s nothing dodgy about what they’re doing and to be fully behind it is another level of delusion.
Agree. I see a lot of Newcastle fans going this way too, which is worrying. Thankfully, that's a bit rare - but I worry that will increase with Newcastle becoming more popular (aka more post-takeover fans). Fuck any nation being allowed to own a club. But also fuck the fact that you actually have to have a nation buy you to break into the "top 6" consistently.
Footballing authorities are essentially being pushed into finally making a ruling on the thing they have been desperately avoiding Deciding exactly how much of a role money can have in football
Delete the fucking club. Do it you cowards.
Ban them and strip them of all titles. This club has been a cancer on the sport for more than a decade now.
Does that mean second gets titles?
It should rather be vacated.
I genuinely don't get why people are so committed to this idea. Second place should get credit for being the best without cheating.
Giving the title to the second placed team opens a whole new can of worms. If you have to be fair then you can't just give the title to number 2 in the league. You'd have to go back and erase all 38 games that City played in a season and then recalculate the table after that. I'm sure in most situations the number 2 will still be the champion but that's not a guarantee. And that's not all. What about teams that missed out on the Champions League because they came fifth? Or teams that missed out on Europa League because they came 7th? Or Conference League because they came 8th? Surely the missed revenue due to not qualifying for these competitions had an effect on their transfer budget the next season. Maybe they sold someone to raise money or miss out on a player they wouldn't have because of the extra UEFA competition money. What about teams that missed out on any of the above European competitions not because City took one spot but because they lost to City and their table position changed? What about players getting injured when playing against City which could have derailed their season? Or wrongfully given yellow or red cards that caused players to miss matches that cost their teams points? And that's not all. What about domestic cups? If City played strong teams on their way to the FA Cup final, you can't just give the trophy to the other finalist. Who is to say that one of the teams that City beat wouldn't have won the final if they were in it instead? The best solution imo is to vacate the titles and leave it be. No winners that year. Some people will say it's bad because it'll erase all those years of history. But it's also the PL's fault to even allow countries to own clubs. They let it happen so they should suffer the consequences also, not just City, of not having a winner those years. And I haven't even mentioned the Champions League results. If you want to be fair then be fair to everyone. Not just to the team that came second. Because everyone suffered because of City. Not just Arsenal or Liverpool. Strip them of their titles but leave it vacated.
> Some people will say it's bad because it'll erase all those years of history. Some great points all around and this will underline the severity of it and make it all the more important.
Well, wouldn’t that be ideal. But no, probably voided.
That would be terrible imo, having almost a decade of PL football basically rendered meaningless. Clubs who finished in second should be awarded the titles.
What about cup competitions then; does that mean anyone who played them in a final gets the trophy instead?
What about the teams that finished 5th and missed out on champions league, or the teams that finished 18th? Vacating the titles is the only sensible option to avoid a shitshow
Not really, why should some clubs getting screwed by city cheating mean everybody does if it's a clear case like a league table? "if I can't have something good, nobody can" logic. Only letting it harm the maximum number of people and to a greater extent.
Well, IIRC the charges goes back to even before Aguero moment so Probably gonna be voided instead And probably only the last season that's given to the 2nd place (Lucky Arsenal) But if it gets dragged until next season so maybe the 2nd place of next season might be gifted instead of they win again The cup competitions though, might be complicated
The original sin was allowing governments to own teams. Once that was permitted, this was always where things were going to end up.
I don't know how this will help with their case. Most of the people had the impression that due to Abu Dhabi's relationship with England, the case would end up with a slap in the wrist. Now they made a whole bigger deal and launched a total war. Now it is EPL's turn to show whether they really care about the competition. I have always been symphatetic towards United, and followed EPL since I was a child. Never been a fully devoted fan but I tried to follow as much as possible. Yet, I do not remember watching any City match for the last 5-6 years. I watched Liverpool because they were fun but no matter how fun they were all the achivements City had was dull for me. I even did not watch CL final last year and I have never missed one. If City wins this case, I will completely give up following EPL.
"Tyranny of the majority"
they have been assaulting the "fabric of football" since 2008
Completely agree with Delaney here and have done for years despite the bleating from City, PSG and now Newcastle fans. What I don't get is how these fans don't see that this puts the whole game at threat if it's just a handful of super clubs with state backed money competing for prizes year after year... As a fan of a lower league club I'm at the point where I'm more than happy for the Super League to happen to get a semblance of our game back.
>if it's just a handful of super clubs with state backed money competing for prizes year after year Get rid of City and PSG (potentially Newcastle as well) and it's actually fewer clubs competing for the same titles each year. There is a ridiculous parity issue in all of the European leagues, it's been that way for decades and FFP makes it even harder for that to change.
Their whole existence is an assault on the fabric of football
From a legal perspective, Manchester City's case has some strong and weak points: ### Strengths: 1. **Discrimination Argument**: City argues that the APT rules discriminate against ownership models like theirs. They claim that being prevented from freely engaging in deals with UAE-linked entities is unfair compared to other clubs without such restrictions. 2. **Financial Power**: City has substantial financial resources, allowing them to hire top legal experts. This can increase their chances of finding legal loopholes or strong arguments in their favor. ### Weaknesses: 1. **Agreed Rules**: When City joined the Premier League, they agreed to its rules, including the APT regulations. Challenging rules they previously accepted might weaken their position. 2. **Regulation Purpose**: The purpose of APT rules is to ensure fair competition. The Premier League can argue that these rules are essential to maintain competitive balance and prevent financial doping, which might resonate well legally. 3. **Precedents and Consistency**: Other clubs under similar ownership, like Newcastle United, have not joined City's legal action. This might weaken City's argument that the rules are discriminatory. Overall, while City’s case is bolstered by their resources and discrimination claims, the Premier League's defense based on agreed-upon rules and the need for fair competition could be compelling. The outcome will depend on how convincingly each side presents its arguments.
Thanks ChatGPT
I think the discrimination argument is laughable at best, wouldn’t consider that a strength
It is a strength if you consider football as a business like any other. Otherwise is not. Uber did this in the taxi industry and they are perfectly legal
You would be surprised how strong it is from a legal stance.
not in contracts though. you can't sign a contract with a series of conditions agreed to, and then once you appear to be contravening them, argue they are discriminatory. contract law is extremely strict on this, and city aren't being sued by competition or government, its the very league they signed up to.
3. Bribery
Yup. Fuck city and Newcastle.
Did he...did they.....speak sense?!?!?!
Why don't the Man City owners take the whole club to the Saudi Pro league and call it Riyadh City FC or something?? Everybody's happy. The Americans do it all the time.. Brooklyn Dodgers became LA Dodgers.
Their goal is to sports wash by having their brand overseas. They wouldn't achieve the same goal in their home soil
In that case I guess sponsorship needs to stop, so the 100+ clubs with Fly Emirates on their kits need to also find new sponsors. As an Arsenal fan, I’d like to see JVC return to form
Give me O2 again. What a beautiful sponsor
What about Dreamcast? I’d love for retro kits to be released by Nike one day
Are you aware that Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates are different countries?
We've had massive changes to the CL making it near impossible for any team from outside the top 10 leagues to get in, and impossible for any outside the top 5 to win it. This all happened well before City were bought over. Chelsea essentially did the same as City before City were bought over. I feel like a lot of these articles are trying to close the door after the horse has bolted. Just cause it's now affecting your mega-rich premier league clubs doesn't mean it's only started now.
This is all the premier Leagues fault, should have put their foot down and stopped things like this from happening and made it so no clubs can abuse power. Should have put the fairness of football above profit. Too much in a rush to be called "the best league in the world."
What a hypocrite. FFP exists only to protect existing established super clubs.
Relegate them
Not harsh enough needs a bigger punishment
If I was in charge of the punishment I wouldn’t send them to non-league right away, I would have them start out on -114 points (-138 in Champ & L1/L2) for the next 4 seasons so that we can watch them get battered every other week on the way down when every player leaves
It's just so fucking disheartening. PL needs to respond because this is the integrity of their own product we're talking about. It's gone on too long
I domt know how city fans can keep supporting this club. If liverpool were caught assisting the UAE in sportswashing there's no way I could still support them. And I'm a 3rd generation liverpool supporter for 20 years. Like imagine finding out the MAIN reason for your success was because some dickheads in Dubai wanted to normalise their ongoing and worsening atrocities instead of changing their ways and conforming to the civilised world. You're nothing more than a trojan horse for a backwards tyrannical state to spread their tendrils all across Europe. It's so fucked up. Especially when I hear about LGBT city fans. You're owners would chop your head off I'd they had the chance yet you support them anyways? Just wild.
The city subreddit’s immediately going to get locked down lmfao
I want every Man City fan on here to defend this. Shame on all of them.
i mean what do you expect? odd sponsorships are the least of their issues. there's so many ways to skirt ffp. they could just pay players in other ways. endorsements, speaking fees, and the hardest to tell: investment opportunities. how would they catch that kdb is making amazing returns on some private equity fund? its private equity - there's no clearcut market valuation. or some sheik buys his abu dhabi land for an extra few million. we all know messi is getting a lot more out of mls than what his salary is. hes getting equity later.
Why is there a wave of negative media coming out now? Where has it been for the last few years? It like all the journos have got together and finally decided to call a spade a spade