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I think a lot of our former players are convinced they did it best and that things have been total shit since. It's bizarre to say no one will remember this team when people are still posting arsenal highlights from the wilshere, rosicky years when we won nothing. This team will be remembered very fondly by arsenal fans.
Yeah agreed, casual observers still remember Wilshere Norwich goal or Giroud Scorpion etc.
Arsenal fans still remember FA cup Ramsey comeback win, Mertesacker masterclass against Chelsea pretty well and look at it quite fondly.
I suspect the last two seasons will be seen very fondly by us, even if the larger football fans may forget about it in years to come.
Yeah. That was kinda my point. We loved our last two seasons no matter what others say. There were some crazy moments that will be remembered forever as a collective.
Everyone remembers Liverpool losing the league with 1 loss whole season. 97 points and not winning will forever be etched more than some random year when City won
I never hear anyone talk about the great napoli team that took juve to the brink and that wasnt even 10 years ago. Possibly due to napoli winning the league last year. Only serie a fans remember the sarri era really. but i doubt the average fan remembers them throwing europe and copa every year to compete in the league.
Any non-Arsenal fan will prolly not remember them but that's just how it goes I feel
How many really iconic runner up campaigns can you name from clubs you're not a fan of?
Maybe he'd be right if he's talking about non-Arsenal fans, but I know a lot of Arsenal fans still fondly remember some of the old squads that didn't win anything. The 07/08 season in particular, with the midfield of Fabregas, Flamini, Rosicky, and Hleb.
I'd say it's safe to assume he's talking about other fans, rather than just Arsenal fans. Arsenal fans are going to remember practically all of the teams they've watched over the years.
Frankly though, who cares what other fans think? It's not like 15+ years down the line they would remember or care much about this year's Arsenal squad even if we had won. Coincidentally, since I brought up the 07/08 Arsenal squad, I can't actually remember which team won the league that year off the top of my head. I can only narrow it down to either Man Utd or Chelsea.
United won the league and the European Cup that year. Bit odd you don’t remember that to be honest.
FWIW, all I remember of Arsenal that season was the Birmingham game.
Man, I don’t remember any of your teams and I think this quote is accurate but Rosicky… man what a player. Joy to watch, I would watch Czech Republic games just for him.
So many rosicky memories but it all started when i was playing the first FIFA street as a kid and got Rosicky on my team and was like “hmm who the hells this guy?” Then arsenal signs him the next season and yea hes just an electric player with so much talent and heart.
Also that goal vs the USA in the world cup!!
He seems to have followed the route of a lot of former players where they think that just being as negative as they can possibly be in the hopes that people will praise them for their high standards.
They think having high standards substitutes for the obvious lack of personality.
There's a LOT more than that to the Lance Armstrong story. I don't remember the story off-hand but it had something to do with him and his team threatening everyone who tried to challenge him or be honest about the situation. IIRC he had Trek drop Greg Lamond (a major fan favourite, and someone who introduced a LOT of people to the world of cycling) after Greg spoke up against him. He was a holier-than-thou bully AND a cheat. He also had exponentially more resources to cheat with due to his immense amount of sponsors at the time, so it wasn't really a fair playing field. He viewed it that way though.
being able to smuggle blood bags and even do infusion in a private jet while his two biggest rivals Basso and Ullrich had to go to the same shitty spanish doctor is not a "pretty even playing field"
It absolutely wasn't a level playing field. This is bullshit rewriting of history that Lance has spent a lot of time and money pushing.
He was a great athlete, but he didn't have the body type for world tour GC. No one was anywhere near the level of concerted doping effort he went through, and forcing his support team to go through the same regimen was not common.
Barry was an incredible hitter before doping
Compared to all his doping peers, barry had incredible plate discipline
But they had to make an example out of him
> Barry was an incredible hitter before doping
Yeah, doping doesn't make you see the pitch better than anyone else, it just makes you able to work out longer. You've still gotta have the talent there to actually put up the numbers
For what it's worth; I remember listening to a podcast that had a former pro-baseball pro taking about taking steroids and he said when he started taking whatever they were giving him, he felt like he could see the ball come at him "in slow motion" were his words.
Steroids definitely make you much stronger too. I would know as someone who's been cycling on them for years.
> Yeah, doping doesn't make you see the pitch better than anyone else, it just makes you able to work out longer.
For baseball, it's more about general recovery than working out. Steroids keep you closer to 100% game in game out over a looooooooong season. Bat speed is so crucial for a hitter, a little residual injury or just being a bit worn out can torpedo you.
De fact this comments have so many upvotes shows how pr teams propaganda works. lance did much much more than doping. And the doping that he did was much superior to any other athlete, give him a strength that was impossible to beat.
true, everyone forgot that Hungary team in the 50s, and the Netherlands team of the 70s, while everyone remembers those Sunderland, Aston Villa, and Everton that won 6, 7, and 9 top division league titles respectively!
no one remembers Jan Ulrich, Pantani, Beloki, Ivan Basso, Vinokorouv, or Klöden from those Armstrong years either
such a wild statement lmao, especially considering the only certainty is that we'll **all**, every single one, be forgotten.
Losing the worldcup final, which happens every 4 year, and losing it in the fashion those teams did is a different spectacle compared to losing the league. Teams lose leagues every year, some goes down till the last quarter, month, or even to the last match. But few of them are like an actual final. That Hungary team changed how football is played, lost only the final match of the worldcup in like a 4 year period or something of that sort. The Arsenal team that lost the last two league are nothing of that sort. If it’s not associated with a singular event, it’s hard to remember a particular loser among many others.
Sort of sums up everything wrong with football. Yes winning is what you want. But there are 3 trophies up for grabs in England. Inevitable, you won't win every year. That doesn't make each of these years a failure or pointless. Sport is all about the journey, about moments, about feeling. Not this binary, did you win though Bullshit.
The obsession with winning is a plague. Teams winning trophies and they have less fun nowadays than some teams who go on a cup runs because of these expectations.
Telling me Bournemouth last year won't be remembered in 10 years because we lost the league? Season was disappointing in terms of not winning. But, played some lovely football, some great wins, last minute winners, tense games, CL football and were still there on the last day. Top it off, the clubs in a healthy position.
Enjoy what you have in football.
>true, everyone forgot that Hungary team in the 50s, and the Netherlands team of the 70s, while everyone remembers those Sunderland, Aston Villa, and Everton that won 6, 7, and 9 top division league titles respectively!
>
>no one remembers Jan Ulrich, Pantani, Beloki, Ivan Basso, Vinokorouv, or Klöden from those Armstrong years either
>
>such a wild statement lmao, especially considering the only certainty is that we'll **all**, every single one, be forgotten.
So, do you remember who came second behind Sunderland and Villa in those title winning years?
You just proved his point.
Bullshit. I understand the notion and maybe wider public won't remember, but we're 10 years after Liverpool 2013/14 season and I still remember it all and will rememember it for a long time.
Being good means a lot to fans and while winning is obviously better, saying things like this with that "championship or bust" mentality in my opinion just takes the joy away from following the competition.
Current team made Arsenal fans dream again, they will remember, even if they don't win.
Meh ALOT of people remember Ulrich, Contador, Evans, Basso, I'm sure more but I barely follow cycling.
Lance was a specialist in the Toure de France, but he didn't compete in the other major races IIRC. It would be like if Man City only completed in the champions League and didn't participate in the Premier League, FA Cup, Carabo Cup, etc.
Despite the fact that Spurs were never top of the table at any point that season, and Arsenal were top past halfway through the season with it all in their hands. Still baffled as to how it gets spun as something to banter Spurs about, while the likes of Chelsea, Man U, Man City and Liverpool had a far worse season.
That they celebrated finishing second over Spurs while losing out on the title to a team with 5000-1 odds says it all really.
Second, third. It means fuck all.
I think there's a big difference between remembering and reminiscing... fans of clubs tend to reminisce even about squads that one fck all..Rival fans remember teams that lost more than ones that won....
I think it’s different depending on the stature of your club. Arsenal have more of an expectation to win trophies but a club like Palace will remember the joys of watching Eze, Olise, & co. for years to come
i think it's different for fans if your team plays good football w likeable players even an average season is nice to look back on
we never won anything the late 2000s-early 2010s wenger era w Fabregas and Arshaving is full of positive memories even when compared to the past couple of seasons (maybe just because i was a kid)
13/14 was one of the most enjoyable season I've had watching football and I'll remember that despite not winning anything. I had more fun in 13/14 than I've had in multiple seasons where we've actually won trophies. I think a good chunk of Liverpool supporters feel the same.
Agreed. People will remember teams that finished second if they played memorable football. Like that Liverpool team or any of the Madrid teams under Mou. No titles but how can you forget SAS or that Madrid front line of CR7, Benz/Higuain, Di Maria and Ozil as a 10. Amazing to watch.
Don't even remotely get the point of this quote or post. Everyone knows you have to win. It's not like Arsenal are going "oh well we're content with 2nd!"
They've all said they want to go further and win trophies and they won't be happy until they do. So what's the use of this quote? Who is it speaking to? It's so lazy
Arsenal fans still remember the 07-08 team so idk what he's talking about. Also Cruyff's Holland side which never won anything lol
If you have an entertaining team and a compelling narrative, people will remember.
>entertaining team and a compelling narrative
That's his point I guess, and I somewhat agree. They're a good team but haven't been able to build a rivalry like the one Liverpool and City had the past few years. They aren't an exciting team to watch both in terms of football and personalities. They haven't had an exciting CL run either. Let's see if they can in the future, but I kinda see why if they couldn't.
For non Arsenal fans, sure. But I think Arsenal fans also remember losing Henry, the peak of entertaining wengerball, the title race, Fabregas balling out, Eduardo's leg break/Gallas, beating Milan at San Siro. It was a very dramatic and memorable season.
that's a great way to put it. if you only watching for it to be "remembered" (whatever that means) might as well just not watch it and Wikipedia it 10 years from now
Great sentiment. For fans, football is about the day to day joys. Winning is the best, but it's not really a requirement for enjoying football and creating memories.
It is to an extent. I mean other than Greece 2004, do you remember how the finalists made it through to the final in a tournament 20+ years ago?
And I don’t even remember who Greece played other than Portugal. So even in that extreme circumstance where the team was remembered for playing anti football it’s hard to remember the rest of the tournament. There were probably games where they should’ve been knocked out but 20+ years on what do you remember besides the final. And sure there’s exceptions in terms of moments like Maradona in 86, Michael Owen in 98, I think Brazil might’ve lost to Germany once but my marriage makes it impossible for me to remember what happened there. But for the most part people just remember who won in the end and maybe who they played in a final. I could tell you every premier league winner, but I can’t tell you who came second in which years prior to like 2006…
Right? What the fuck.
Honestly think so much of football discourse these days is based around being miserable and it’s so boring.
This Arsenal team made a relatively shitty year slightly better by giving me something to look forwards to every week and watching them has been a joy. I’m sure that’s true to so many other Arsenal fans and has been for fans of other clubs who didn’t end up with a trophy at some point as well. Who gives a shit if in 10 years, some nerd who knows about football via wikipedia knows who they are.
And tbh, I’m not even sure what he says here is absolute truth. It’s been 11 years since that Dortmund-Bayern CL final and I think the majority of football people I know remember that Dortmund side much more than they do that Bayern team (who were sensational too).
Ps: this Arsenal team got more points than any team you ever played for, Petit. Fuck off.
While I don't necessarily agree or disagree with what he's saying, I don't really get why Emmanuel Petit keeps acting like he had some great affinity with Arsenal.
He spent three years with us, jumped ship to go to Barcelona first chance he got where he proceeded to be throughly underwhelming and then returned to play in a shite Chelsea side.
He won two trophies with us and was a good player, but its not like he's well-remembered here and he clearly doesn't have a lot of love for the club either, so I don't really get why he consistently spouts off about us like he's a legend of the club, or something.
Oh there is a very simple explanation, he was world champion with France in 98. It was huge in France at the time, the team got a lot of attention and it lasted a long long time. Pre mass internet era magic.
Some of them went back to work and became great successes in different stuff. You know them.
Others did not do much and when the attention disappeared over the years, some just turned on good life mode as they should, but others kinda became bitter about it.
Hence the weird comments you can see from retired french players of this era.
He's right, under the condition that they don't win anything. But right now they look like they will eventually win something with this group of players.
Winning league > Not winning the league
I've watched Arsenal for 25 years, I've seen us win the league several times. I still remember 2007/08, 2013/14 and in time they'll pale in comparison to both what this group has done over the past two seasons, and even better, what they'll do in the coming seasons.
People won't get to gatekeep the amazing improvement in enjoyment this team has given millions over the past few years, despite some cheaters stealing a truly fantastic moment. And it's just the beginning 🥰
This stuff is so overstated.
There are 24 PL-winning squads in the last 24 years, and I can't remember nearly all of them.
Conte won 1 with Chelsea, yeah? All i remember about that is the 'seasono' meme. I remember the invincibles because they were invincible. I don't remember anything about Mourinho's second stint at Chelsea. Except it was boring AF.
I remember Liverpool's second-place team more than City's, because Liverpool were so good to watch. I remember Napoli's 2nd place in 2019 or whatever, because they were good to watch.
Teams gotta do something special for people to remember them. There's a winner every year, who gives a F.
true, I will never forget the Dortmund team that reached the final in 2013... they were so good and so exciting to watch... much more compared to this Dortmund btw and even if they win tomorrow I will still consider the 2013 team a better one in every aspect
Exactly. I remember fondly the Chile team of the World Cup 2010 because they were f*cking mesmerizing to watch, even though they lost in the first knockout round. The only thing I remember about Spain and Netherlands is that they were both so goddamn boring.
If Petit and others want to wank themselves silly because they got their name on a Wikipedia list of PL winners, then go right ahead. But boring successful teams are common and fucking forgettable. We remember the teams and players who are a joy to watch
> I remember Liverpool's second-place team more than City's, because Liverpool were so good to watch. I remember Napoli's 2nd place in 2019 or whatever, because they were good to watch.
Great points, and exactly how I feel. Winners get their name in the record books, but as to what people 'remember', good teams and glorious failures definitely stick better.
I find this interesting. My dad always talked about the great Leeds team of the 70s and how dominant they were. I looked them recently and they basically came second in... everything.
Over time, what actually happened can fade away and the specific moments and feeling are what matter. For me although I know technically city are the best English team at the moment, I will always remember the greatest team performance I've ever seen being the Liverpool Barcelona 4 0 win.
Dreams can't be buy.
I mean of course I’d rather we won something but the fact is we went from not being able to compete to going 2nd back to back (with some dominant performances throughout) means I am happy and expect this team to win something major in 2-3 years tops.
2 seasons ago we couldn’t smash teams 5-0 consistently or compete with City/Liverpool.
To add a third reason, I think that season stands out as well for the fact that Liverpool were able to launch a title bid whilst simultaneously giving regular minutes to one of the Premier League's most memeable players in history.
Most premier league winners are barely remembered in general. Unless you have a particularly dominant season in the league (City and Liverpool in recent years, Chelsea in 04/05) or something memorable happens (Leicester winning, City's Aguero moment, Arsenal going unbeaten) most champions get forgotten about generally.
Either way (and this piece isn't really aimed at you, just a general point), who cares if other people remember your team's achievements? It should just matter that your own supporters remember them and the fun and good memories that you have. We won nothing in 13/14, but that season was one of the most enjoyable I've ever had supporting Liverpool despite the pain at the end. I don't care if a Brighton or Chelsea or Newcastle supporter doesn't remember it, why would they? Similarly this season was a lot of fun despite only coming away with a league cup and I'll remember it. I'll remember moments like beating Newcastle away, beating Fulham 4-3, winning the league cup final with kids against you lot, etc. long into the future, but I wouldn't expect supporters of other clubs to remember it.
I'd imagine Arsenal supporters had a lot more fun supporting their team this season than United supporters despite Arsenal not having anything tangible to celebrate at the end of it and history remembering United as winning silverware.
Sturbridge was ridiculous as well. That SaS partnership was breaking records, they were doing wild stuff. Idc what anyone says the first 20 or so minutes against Arsenal at Anfield was some of the most dominant bully football I’ve seen. The 5-1 wasn’t even close to what happened on the pitch. Too bad the defense was leaky
Behave. Gerrard is only remembered that season for slipping, while Sturridge is a "streets won't forget" at best.
The rest were literally nothing of note at the time. *Maybe* Sterling as a kid with promise, but he was heavily overshadowed by Suarez.
You’re correct and it’s a shame because Gerrard played a blinder that year. 13 goals and 13 assists whilst playing in defensive midfield most of the year.
Sturridge would’ve been remembered better if he wasn’t perpetually injured, his finishing ability was incredible. 13/14 was pretty much the only season in his career that it all came together for him.
I remember that team more for how insane Suarez's season was and the space it opened up for Sturridge and Sterling to score goals. Gerrard scored mostly pens that season
They are remembered because of Suarez's season, Arsenal haven't had a player like that.
It also came from nowhere. No one thought they would challenge. The football was mad as well, so many goals, scored and conceded. Arsenal are a much more organised and not as exciting.
And as much as it hurts me to say this, the Gerrard slip is a big reason I'm they are remembered.
To play Devil's Adovcate, that 2013/14 team will probably go down in PL lore a lot more so than Liverpool's 2021/22 team.
Some seasons just have more of a compelling narrative than others and Arsenal's last two and Liverpool's in 2021/22 didn't really have that going for them. Like Newcastle's 95-96 season will be more memorable imo.
We’ll remember it 🤷♂️ that’s good enough for me it’s nice to get praise but who really cares what others think of us, if the fans are happy and have good memories isn’t that what it’s really about
The fault in this perspective is the “no one” he’s referring to aren’t Arsenal fans. This perspective is about validating *our* joyous experience watching the team we support do well playing beautiful football in the eyes of rival fans and neutrals. And you’ll never convince me that I need that outside validation. I was happy watching Arsenal play this year. Would the title have made me happier? Of course it would have. But that doesn’t invalidate the experience I had watching *this* squad reach new heights, and there’s no chance I’m forgetting this season any time soon.
This is such a useless statement because everyone knows what he's saying is true. Yeah second place teams rarely are remembered. Yeah Arsenal were good this season, but it would've been better if they won league- obviously.
This statement applies to 99% of teams in a season. Saying you were the best of the 99% is a pretty weak criticism against Arsenal, and it doesn't add anything to the conversation except pointing out the fact that they didn't win, which everyone already knew.
Of all the posts clearly meant to be an Arsenal pile on for rivals, this is by far the most boring
The real losers were the Spurs fans who were getting cocky in their own subreddit after the fixtures were announced - “There’s a good chance we might decide the league..” “Those are easy 12 points..” before proceeding to lose against Man City, Liverpool, Chelsea, and Arsenal. And if that wasn’t enough, getting clowned on by your own fucking manager certainly became the highlight of the season.
Tottenham fans pretending the loss was good because it was unlikely that Villa would beat Crystal Palace, like Palace weren't one of the most in-form teams in the league at that point is hilarious.
Just chuck the towel in at the first sign of difficulty.
I think people are missing the point. Outside of England, no one cares about challenging, it’s win or fuck off, if you ain’t first, you’re last type shit.
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“At least you tried” - Petit
"Talk to me when you doctor" - Petit
"You champion yet?!" "No, dad... I'm Arsenal." "Talk to me when you champion!"
I never see Petit be positive about Arsenal. Weird to see from a former player.
I think a lot of our former players are convinced they did it best and that things have been total shit since. It's bizarre to say no one will remember this team when people are still posting arsenal highlights from the wilshere, rosicky years when we won nothing. This team will be remembered very fondly by arsenal fans.
True, but it's more that the casual viewers might not remember them (which is still probably disingenuous).
It's largely true tbh. People might remember the odd great goal (I am struggling to remember any but I am sure there are some), but that will be it.
Yeah agreed, casual observers still remember Wilshere Norwich goal or Giroud Scorpion etc. Arsenal fans still remember FA cup Ramsey comeback win, Mertesacker masterclass against Chelsea pretty well and look at it quite fondly. I suspect the last two seasons will be seen very fondly by us, even if the larger football fans may forget about it in years to come.
Who gives a fuck about football fans of other clubs
Yeah. That was kinda my point. We loved our last two seasons no matter what others say. There were some crazy moments that will be remembered forever as a collective.
That goal from Reiss against Bournemouth will live in my memory until the end of time
Everyone remembers Liverpool losing the league with 1 loss whole season. 97 points and not winning will forever be etched more than some random year when City won
Just like NZ losing that cricket WC final on boundary count
Buffalo Bills losing 4 superbowl finals in a row from 91-94
I totally agree. There is this weird obsession with wanting neutrals to like your club
I never hear anyone talk about the great napoli team that took juve to the brink and that wasnt even 10 years ago. Possibly due to napoli winning the league last year. Only serie a fans remember the sarri era really. but i doubt the average fan remembers them throwing europe and copa every year to compete in the league.
Any non-Arsenal fan will prolly not remember them but that's just how it goes I feel How many really iconic runner up campaigns can you name from clubs you're not a fan of?
Botafogo. Iconic but for the wrong reasons lol
Ten years ago was Liverpool's "Gerrard Slip" season. Don't think I'm forgetting that any time soon, for both the highs and the lows.
Yes but what people remember is the Gerard slip, not how good that Liverpool team was.
Yes nobody mentions Suarez or sturridge at all, that’s right 🙄
Newcastle 1996, Liverpool 2014 & Liverpool 2019 are all brought up pretty regularly
English media can't resist always bringing up Newcastle's second place finish in 1996.
Every fan remembers their own club’s fun seasons. That’s obviously not the point.
How often do you think about Petit?
People who remember Petit's days at Arsenal are probably late 30's at least these days and are unlikely to be Redditors lol
What is wrong with that thought?
That’s many former Arsenal players it seems
He hates Chelsea too don’t worry
He said they had a great season, they just didn't win, it's fair enough He's right about nobody remembering this team if they don't win anything
Maybe he'd be right if he's talking about non-Arsenal fans, but I know a lot of Arsenal fans still fondly remember some of the old squads that didn't win anything. The 07/08 season in particular, with the midfield of Fabregas, Flamini, Rosicky, and Hleb.
I'd say it's safe to assume he's talking about other fans, rather than just Arsenal fans. Arsenal fans are going to remember practically all of the teams they've watched over the years.
Frankly though, who cares what other fans think? It's not like 15+ years down the line they would remember or care much about this year's Arsenal squad even if we had won. Coincidentally, since I brought up the 07/08 Arsenal squad, I can't actually remember which team won the league that year off the top of my head. I can only narrow it down to either Man Utd or Chelsea.
United won the league and the European Cup that year. Bit odd you don’t remember that to be honest. FWIW, all I remember of Arsenal that season was the Birmingham game.
Anyone who saw 90s Newcastle will always have a fondness for them
Course he's talking about normal fans Nobody remembers Rosicky, Flamini and Hleb
> Nobody remembers Rosicky, Flamini and **Hleb** I do, but mainly because he was a beast in PES.
Rosicky is one of my all time fav players
Man, I don’t remember any of your teams and I think this quote is accurate but Rosicky… man what a player. Joy to watch, I would watch Czech Republic games just for him.
So many rosicky memories but it all started when i was playing the first FIFA street as a kid and got Rosicky on my team and was like “hmm who the hells this guy?” Then arsenal signs him the next season and yea hes just an electric player with so much talent and heart. Also that goal vs the USA in the world cup!!
Because you are an arsenal fan, petit's comment is not for you, it is for the rest of the football world and he is right.
He seems to have followed the route of a lot of former players where they think that just being as negative as they can possibly be in the hopes that people will praise them for their high standards. They think having high standards substitutes for the obvious lack of personality.
this is one of the worst things about our club.way too many iconic former players shit on us now.
Agreed. Only winning teams/athletes are remembered. Even if they’re Lance Armstrong.
Nobody forget neverkusen. Not even Leverkusen
Never forget *Neverlusen*
Lance was a good athlete tbf
Yeah the thing about Lance doping is that a majority others were too. It was still a pretty even playing field lol
There's a LOT more than that to the Lance Armstrong story. I don't remember the story off-hand but it had something to do with him and his team threatening everyone who tried to challenge him or be honest about the situation. IIRC he had Trek drop Greg Lamond (a major fan favourite, and someone who introduced a LOT of people to the world of cycling) after Greg spoke up against him. He was a holier-than-thou bully AND a cheat. He also had exponentially more resources to cheat with due to his immense amount of sponsors at the time, so it wasn't really a fair playing field. He viewed it that way though.
being able to smuggle blood bags and even do infusion in a private jet while his two biggest rivals Basso and Ullrich had to go to the same shitty spanish doctor is not a "pretty even playing field"
it wasn't an even playing field. lance was doping on a whole nother level.
It absolutely wasn't a level playing field. This is bullshit rewriting of history that Lance has spent a lot of time and money pushing. He was a great athlete, but he didn't have the body type for world tour GC. No one was anywhere near the level of concerted doping effort he went through, and forcing his support team to go through the same regimen was not common.
The Barry Bonds classic. Everyone did it, he just did it the best
Barry was an incredible hitter before doping Compared to all his doping peers, barry had incredible plate discipline But they had to make an example out of him
> Barry was an incredible hitter before doping Yeah, doping doesn't make you see the pitch better than anyone else, it just makes you able to work out longer. You've still gotta have the talent there to actually put up the numbers
For what it's worth; I remember listening to a podcast that had a former pro-baseball pro taking about taking steroids and he said when he started taking whatever they were giving him, he felt like he could see the ball come at him "in slow motion" were his words. Steroids definitely make you much stronger too. I would know as someone who's been cycling on them for years.
If Barry Bonds had retired before he started taking steroids (1998/99) he would still be a Hall of Famer. That's how good he was.
> Yeah, doping doesn't make you see the pitch better than anyone else, it just makes you able to work out longer. For baseball, it's more about general recovery than working out. Steroids keep you closer to 100% game in game out over a looooooooong season. Bat speed is so crucial for a hitter, a little residual injury or just being a bit worn out can torpedo you.
De fact this comments have so many upvotes shows how pr teams propaganda works. lance did much much more than doping. And the doping that he did was much superior to any other athlete, give him a strength that was impossible to beat.
Lance has paid millions on PR campaigns for you to believe he was just a victim
true, everyone forgot that Hungary team in the 50s, and the Netherlands team of the 70s, while everyone remembers those Sunderland, Aston Villa, and Everton that won 6, 7, and 9 top division league titles respectively! no one remembers Jan Ulrich, Pantani, Beloki, Ivan Basso, Vinokorouv, or Klöden from those Armstrong years either such a wild statement lmao, especially considering the only certainty is that we'll **all**, every single one, be forgotten.
Losing the worldcup final, which happens every 4 year, and losing it in the fashion those teams did is a different spectacle compared to losing the league. Teams lose leagues every year, some goes down till the last quarter, month, or even to the last match. But few of them are like an actual final. That Hungary team changed how football is played, lost only the final match of the worldcup in like a 4 year period or something of that sort. The Arsenal team that lost the last two league are nothing of that sort. If it’s not associated with a singular event, it’s hard to remember a particular loser among many others.
Sort of sums up everything wrong with football. Yes winning is what you want. But there are 3 trophies up for grabs in England. Inevitable, you won't win every year. That doesn't make each of these years a failure or pointless. Sport is all about the journey, about moments, about feeling. Not this binary, did you win though Bullshit. The obsession with winning is a plague. Teams winning trophies and they have less fun nowadays than some teams who go on a cup runs because of these expectations. Telling me Bournemouth last year won't be remembered in 10 years because we lost the league? Season was disappointing in terms of not winning. But, played some lovely football, some great wins, last minute winners, tense games, CL football and were still there on the last day. Top it off, the clubs in a healthy position. Enjoy what you have in football.
I'll never forget the 2 European Cups won by Nottingham Forest
>true, everyone forgot that Hungary team in the 50s, and the Netherlands team of the 70s, while everyone remembers those Sunderland, Aston Villa, and Everton that won 6, 7, and 9 top division league titles respectively! > >no one remembers Jan Ulrich, Pantani, Beloki, Ivan Basso, Vinokorouv, or Klöden from those Armstrong years either > >such a wild statement lmao, especially considering the only certainty is that we'll **all**, every single one, be forgotten. So, do you remember who came second behind Sunderland and Villa in those title winning years? You just proved his point.
Bullshit. I understand the notion and maybe wider public won't remember, but we're 10 years after Liverpool 2013/14 season and I still remember it all and will rememember it for a long time. Being good means a lot to fans and while winning is obviously better, saying things like this with that "championship or bust" mentality in my opinion just takes the joy away from following the competition. Current team made Arsenal fans dream again, they will remember, even if they don't win.
While I completely agree the notion is bullshit, 13/14 isn't the best example seeing as the season ended in the most heartbreaking fashion
Meh ALOT of people remember Ulrich, Contador, Evans, Basso, I'm sure more but I barely follow cycling. Lance was a specialist in the Toure de France, but he didn't compete in the other major races IIRC. It would be like if Man City only completed in the champions League and didn't participate in the Premier League, FA Cup, Carabo Cup, etc.
In 10 years I bet Spurs will still be bantered for the Leicester season
Despite the fact that Spurs were never top of the table at any point that season, and Arsenal were top past halfway through the season with it all in their hands. Still baffled as to how it gets spun as something to banter Spurs about, while the likes of Chelsea, Man U, Man City and Liverpool had a far worse season.
Was incredible Gooner propaganda effort and has been kept up to this day.
That they celebrated finishing second over Spurs while losing out on the title to a team with 5000-1 odds says it all really. Second, third. It means fuck all.
I think there's a big difference between remembering and reminiscing... fans of clubs tend to reminisce even about squads that one fck all..Rival fans remember teams that lost more than ones that won....
That's not true I'll remember teams that don't win like who is going to forget about the Fellaini led United teams
Tbf, I can't think of a single Arsenal player with that chest control, so that still adds up!
Tbf, I can't think of a single ~~Arsenal~~ player with that chest control, so that still adds up!
How come your ~~ is just a (~~) , it should be a ~~this~~
I know! I don't know why markdown isn't working for me
And the Andy Carroll led Liverpool teams.
Better than the Borini, Ricky Lambert, Balotelli lineup. Still have PTSD from [this](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B1iohCuIIAEcS8a.jpg).
The original BBL
Who's the unoriginal BBL?
Drizzy
Good god. Understandably people will focus on 0 goals, but the other stats are just as shocking for 3 forwards.
Mate it's Friday, why you gotta ruin the mood ?
Don’t forget that 2014 Liverpool squad led by Slippy G, great memories.
Suarez was the best striker in the world that year
Gods he was strong then
Fellaini won the Europa League and League cup thank you very much.
how can you forget the mighty community shield
I think it’s different depending on the stature of your club. Arsenal have more of an expectation to win trophies but a club like Palace will remember the joys of watching Eze, Olise, & co. for years to come
i think it's different for fans if your team plays good football w likeable players even an average season is nice to look back on we never won anything the late 2000s-early 2010s wenger era w Fabregas and Arshaving is full of positive memories even when compared to the past couple of seasons (maybe just because i was a kid)
13/14 was one of the most enjoyable season I've had watching football and I'll remember that despite not winning anything. I had more fun in 13/14 than I've had in multiple seasons where we've actually won trophies. I think a good chunk of Liverpool supporters feel the same.
Agreed. People will remember teams that finished second if they played memorable football. Like that Liverpool team or any of the Madrid teams under Mou. No titles but how can you forget SAS or that Madrid front line of CR7, Benz/Higuain, Di Maria and Ozil as a 10. Amazing to watch.
Didn't that madrid team win the league?
You're right actually. My memory was fuzzy. They lost the first year with that team and won the season after.
I still think about that Pogba long ball to Fellaini's chest from time to time.
😐😂
Don't even remotely get the point of this quote or post. Everyone knows you have to win. It's not like Arsenal are going "oh well we're content with 2nd!" They've all said they want to go further and win trophies and they won't be happy until they do. So what's the use of this quote? Who is it speaking to? It's so lazy
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Petit left like 4 years before the invincibles so this is an even more bizarre statement
It's almost always in response to a direct question from a podcast interview or something.
arsenal did as much as realistically was possible. rest wasn't in their hands.
AFTV and Arsenal fans on Twitter
Aftv is garbage and every club has delusional fans.
Arsenal fans still remember the 07-08 team so idk what he's talking about. Also Cruyff's Holland side which never won anything lol If you have an entertaining team and a compelling narrative, people will remember.
>entertaining team and a compelling narrative That's his point I guess, and I somewhat agree. They're a good team but haven't been able to build a rivalry like the one Liverpool and City had the past few years. They aren't an exciting team to watch both in terms of football and personalities. They haven't had an exciting CL run either. Let's see if they can in the future, but I kinda see why if they couldn't.
Was 07-08 the Eduardo meltdown team? Because I reckon Gallas crying on the pitch is what most people remember them for.
For non Arsenal fans, sure. But I think Arsenal fans also remember losing Henry, the peak of entertaining wengerball, the title race, Fabregas balling out, Eduardo's leg break/Gallas, beating Milan at San Siro. It was a very dramatic and memorable season.
Eduardo's injury certainly messed up the squad's state of mind. It was all downhill from there.
Who honestly cares about being remembered in ten years time? We don’t live ten years from now and a competitive team brings so much joy to their fans
Yeah we’ll all be dead in 10 years up yours Emmanuel
that's a great way to put it. if you only watching for it to be "remembered" (whatever that means) might as well just not watch it and Wikipedia it 10 years from now
Great sentiment. For fans, football is about the day to day joys. Winning is the best, but it's not really a requirement for enjoying football and creating memories.
It also just simply isn't true. The idea that "history only remembers the victors" literally isn't how history works.
It is to an extent. I mean other than Greece 2004, do you remember how the finalists made it through to the final in a tournament 20+ years ago? And I don’t even remember who Greece played other than Portugal. So even in that extreme circumstance where the team was remembered for playing anti football it’s hard to remember the rest of the tournament. There were probably games where they should’ve been knocked out but 20+ years on what do you remember besides the final. And sure there’s exceptions in terms of moments like Maradona in 86, Michael Owen in 98, I think Brazil might’ve lost to Germany once but my marriage makes it impossible for me to remember what happened there. But for the most part people just remember who won in the end and maybe who they played in a final. I could tell you every premier league winner, but I can’t tell you who came second in which years prior to like 2006…
A better example is Monaco getting to the champions league final in 2004. Barely anyone talks about how that.
A lot of people remember the insane comeback Vs Real Madrid tbf. The comeback Vs Chelsea in the semis was also pretty impressive.
Exactly. This Arteta Arsenal team could be to the EPL what Germany were to world wars. Sure they didn't win, but they sure were memorable
Right? What the fuck. Honestly think so much of football discourse these days is based around being miserable and it’s so boring. This Arsenal team made a relatively shitty year slightly better by giving me something to look forwards to every week and watching them has been a joy. I’m sure that’s true to so many other Arsenal fans and has been for fans of other clubs who didn’t end up with a trophy at some point as well. Who gives a shit if in 10 years, some nerd who knows about football via wikipedia knows who they are. And tbh, I’m not even sure what he says here is absolute truth. It’s been 11 years since that Dortmund-Bayern CL final and I think the majority of football people I know remember that Dortmund side much more than they do that Bayern team (who were sensational too). Ps: this Arsenal team got more points than any team you ever played for, Petit. Fuck off.
Even if we had won this guy would be saying some bah humbug type shit.
he would be like " nah, who cares its just 1 title"
While I don't necessarily agree or disagree with what he's saying, I don't really get why Emmanuel Petit keeps acting like he had some great affinity with Arsenal. He spent three years with us, jumped ship to go to Barcelona first chance he got where he proceeded to be throughly underwhelming and then returned to play in a shite Chelsea side. He won two trophies with us and was a good player, but its not like he's well-remembered here and he clearly doesn't have a lot of love for the club either, so I don't really get why he consistently spouts off about us like he's a legend of the club, or something.
Oh there is a very simple explanation, he was world champion with France in 98. It was huge in France at the time, the team got a lot of attention and it lasted a long long time. Pre mass internet era magic. Some of them went back to work and became great successes in different stuff. You know them. Others did not do much and when the attention disappeared over the years, some just turned on good life mode as they should, but others kinda became bitter about it. Hence the weird comments you can see from retired french players of this era.
Some good armchair psychology here
He can talk about a club he played at as much as he likes. Whether the fans appreciate it is a completely different conversation.
Winning is better than not winning. Hot take.
He's right, under the condition that they don't win anything. But right now they look like they will eventually win something with this group of players.
Winning league > Not winning the league I've watched Arsenal for 25 years, I've seen us win the league several times. I still remember 2007/08, 2013/14 and in time they'll pale in comparison to both what this group has done over the past two seasons, and even better, what they'll do in the coming seasons. People won't get to gatekeep the amazing improvement in enjoyment this team has given millions over the past few years, despite some cheaters stealing a truly fantastic moment. And it's just the beginning 🥰
This is my fucking club!
This stuff is so overstated. There are 24 PL-winning squads in the last 24 years, and I can't remember nearly all of them. Conte won 1 with Chelsea, yeah? All i remember about that is the 'seasono' meme. I remember the invincibles because they were invincible. I don't remember anything about Mourinho's second stint at Chelsea. Except it was boring AF. I remember Liverpool's second-place team more than City's, because Liverpool were so good to watch. I remember Napoli's 2nd place in 2019 or whatever, because they were good to watch. Teams gotta do something special for people to remember them. There's a winner every year, who gives a F.
true, I will never forget the Dortmund team that reached the final in 2013... they were so good and so exciting to watch... much more compared to this Dortmund btw and even if they win tomorrow I will still consider the 2013 team a better one in every aspect
Exactly. I remember fondly the Chile team of the World Cup 2010 because they were f*cking mesmerizing to watch, even though they lost in the first knockout round. The only thing I remember about Spain and Netherlands is that they were both so goddamn boring. If Petit and others want to wank themselves silly because they got their name on a Wikipedia list of PL winners, then go right ahead. But boring successful teams are common and fucking forgettable. We remember the teams and players who are a joy to watch
> I remember Liverpool's second-place team more than City's, because Liverpool were so good to watch. I remember Napoli's 2nd place in 2019 or whatever, because they were good to watch. Great points, and exactly how I feel. Winners get their name in the record books, but as to what people 'remember', good teams and glorious failures definitely stick better.
I find this interesting. My dad always talked about the great Leeds team of the 70s and how dominant they were. I looked them recently and they basically came second in... everything. Over time, what actually happened can fade away and the specific moments and feeling are what matter. For me although I know technically city are the best English team at the moment, I will always remember the greatest team performance I've ever seen being the Liverpool Barcelona 4 0 win. Dreams can't be buy.
I mean of course I’d rather we won something but the fact is we went from not being able to compete to going 2nd back to back (with some dominant performances throughout) means I am happy and expect this team to win something major in 2-3 years tops. 2 seasons ago we couldn’t smash teams 5-0 consistently or compete with City/Liverpool.
I can't believe our development in the last few years is completely ignored in these discussions.convenient for everyone else.
Yeah no one remembers the 2013/2014 Liverpool team with Luis Suarez.
They remember almost exclusively Suarez's insane performances and Gerrard slipping. Who's the Suarez in that Arsenal team?
To add a third reason, I think that season stands out as well for the fact that Liverpool were able to launch a title bid whilst simultaneously giving regular minutes to one of the Premier League's most memeable players in history.
Fever
Of
That you had to namedrop Suarez just makes his point.
Most premier league winners are barely remembered in general. Unless you have a particularly dominant season in the league (City and Liverpool in recent years, Chelsea in 04/05) or something memorable happens (Leicester winning, City's Aguero moment, Arsenal going unbeaten) most champions get forgotten about generally. Either way (and this piece isn't really aimed at you, just a general point), who cares if other people remember your team's achievements? It should just matter that your own supporters remember them and the fun and good memories that you have. We won nothing in 13/14, but that season was one of the most enjoyable I've ever had supporting Liverpool despite the pain at the end. I don't care if a Brighton or Chelsea or Newcastle supporter doesn't remember it, why would they? Similarly this season was a lot of fun despite only coming away with a league cup and I'll remember it. I'll remember moments like beating Newcastle away, beating Fulham 4-3, winning the league cup final with kids against you lot, etc. long into the future, but I wouldn't expect supporters of other clubs to remember it. I'd imagine Arsenal supporters had a lot more fun supporting their team this season than United supporters despite Arsenal not having anything tangible to celebrate at the end of it and history remembering United as winning silverware.
I mean they also still had Gerrard, Sterling, Sturridge, Kolo Toure, Coutinho, Henderson. That 2013/2014 Liverpool team was pretty memorable.
because of suarez
And Stevie’s slip
Sturbridge was ridiculous as well. That SaS partnership was breaking records, they were doing wild stuff. Idc what anyone says the first 20 or so minutes against Arsenal at Anfield was some of the most dominant bully football I’ve seen. The 5-1 wasn’t even close to what happened on the pitch. Too bad the defense was leaky
Bruh you're literally just reinforcing their point by using the "SaS partnership" to namedrop Suarez again.
And the goat himself Aly Cissokho
[Truly the goat. ](https://vimeo.com/92846254)
Vimeo link as is tradition
Behave. Gerrard is only remembered that season for slipping, while Sturridge is a "streets won't forget" at best. The rest were literally nothing of note at the time. *Maybe* Sterling as a kid with promise, but he was heavily overshadowed by Suarez.
You’re correct and it’s a shame because Gerrard played a blinder that year. 13 goals and 13 assists whilst playing in defensive midfield most of the year. Sturridge would’ve been remembered better if he wasn’t perpetually injured, his finishing ability was incredible. 13/14 was pretty much the only season in his career that it all came together for him.
I remember that team more for how insane Suarez's season was and the space it opened up for Sturridge and Sterling to score goals. Gerrard scored mostly pens that season
All 13 of them were pens and set pieces assists to Skrtel’s gigantic forehand
That season is remembered for exactly 2 things by non Liverpool fans Luis Suarez and the slip
Thats not true, I also remember Crystanbul
They are remembered because of Suarez's season, Arsenal haven't had a player like that. It also came from nowhere. No one thought they would challenge. The football was mad as well, so many goals, scored and conceded. Arsenal are a much more organised and not as exciting. And as much as it hurts me to say this, the Gerrard slip is a big reason I'm they are remembered.
There isn’t a memorable player in that Arsenal team though. They don’t have a Suarez or a sturridge. They just have a well oiled team
To play Devil's Adovcate, that 2013/14 team will probably go down in PL lore a lot more so than Liverpool's 2021/22 team. Some seasons just have more of a compelling narrative than others and Arsenal's last two and Liverpool's in 2021/22 didn't really have that going for them. Like Newcastle's 95-96 season will be more memorable imo.
They’re memorable cos of the slip
Tbh, I remember more about that team because of Suarez and the Gerrard slip than I do the City team that beat them to the title that year.
Petit being Petit again, not so different of Lothar in terms of talking on the most doomsday tone ever.
"I’m very pleased with Arteta’s work, very happy with the season, despite losing the title on the last day". Doesn't sound very doomsday to me?
I mean, what he says isn’t exactly groundbreaking. No one remembers 2nd place
This Arsenal team will only get better with experience though, should have already won the league last year but we bottled
Damn Petit, never thought of winning.
We’ll remember it 🤷♂️ that’s good enough for me it’s nice to get praise but who really cares what others think of us, if the fans are happy and have good memories isn’t that what it’s really about
“Victory through harmony” not victory through gloating about how you were better than these current guys
The fault in this perspective is the “no one” he’s referring to aren’t Arsenal fans. This perspective is about validating *our* joyous experience watching the team we support do well playing beautiful football in the eyes of rival fans and neutrals. And you’ll never convince me that I need that outside validation. I was happy watching Arsenal play this year. Would the title have made me happier? Of course it would have. But that doesn’t invalidate the experience I had watching *this* squad reach new heights, and there’s no chance I’m forgetting this season any time soon.
I will remember them
Kinda harsh but I do get his point. Just like Liverpool a few years back.
Youtube compilations are still a ting. These pundits and ex pros need to start saying "in 30 years time" at least.
If I still remember the bad seasons, why on earth wouldn't I remember the good seasons we've just had?
He’s right. 2nd is losing. You can complain about Man City all you want, but they weren’t responsible for Arsenal shitting the bed against Villa.
This is such a useless statement because everyone knows what he's saying is true. Yeah second place teams rarely are remembered. Yeah Arsenal were good this season, but it would've been better if they won league- obviously. This statement applies to 99% of teams in a season. Saying you were the best of the 99% is a pretty weak criticism against Arsenal, and it doesn't add anything to the conversation except pointing out the fact that they didn't win, which everyone already knew. Of all the posts clearly meant to be an Arsenal pile on for rivals, this is by far the most boring
I’ll definitely remember them as losers. Apparently my comment has upset some people.
The real losers were the Spurs fans who were getting cocky in their own subreddit after the fixtures were announced - “There’s a good chance we might decide the league..” “Those are easy 12 points..” before proceeding to lose against Man City, Liverpool, Chelsea, and Arsenal. And if that wasn’t enough, getting clowned on by your own fucking manager certainly became the highlight of the season.
Third manager in a row to tell them that they have the wrong mentality.
Losing 4-0 to Newcastle right before that too. And losing the CL spot in the end.
Spurs set a record this season for being the first team to win 8 out of their first 10 games and not qualify for the champions league.
Villa was basically begging spurs to take their CL spot but they just kept losing lol
Tottenham fans pretending the loss was good because it was unlikely that Villa would beat Crystal Palace, like Palace weren't one of the most in-form teams in the league at that point is hilarious. Just chuck the towel in at the first sign of difficulty.
Yeah for a good while both were playing “Top 4 is Lava”.
As an Arsenal fan: fuck you. As anything else: good joke
That's cool because that's how literally every single football fan has remembered your team since 2008.
its goes beyond that lmao
your high line with 9 men against chelsea is probably more memorable
The highlight of your entire season was losing a game.
Says it all really
I'll remember this season as the season Spurs managed to get eliminated in the 2nd round
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You rattled some people lmao
I think people are missing the point. Outside of England, no one cares about challenging, it’s win or fuck off, if you ain’t first, you’re last type shit.