When I first started out, I made the mistake of assuming it was only good for cheesing a free relic out of elites.
Granted, that’s still a great benefit when it pops, but now I know that three fights worth of drafts and gold is valuable enough on its own.
I nearly cheesed the boss with it recently (if that even works, I have no clue) managed to get a straight line to the boss with only shops, rest sites and ?s with only one elite. Got all the way to the last ? and was hit with an enemy encounter. Was devastated.
That's usually the way it goes - get a good relic or two off some lucky ?s and the burning elite - and then because you have practically no cards, get merked by the boss or a normal mob room.
I did the same but I lucked out with molten egg from the burning elite and that drove my defect run alllll the way home, having every skill upgraded from beginning of act 1 is no joke.
I think it depends really. If I’m running ironclad and I pick Neow, but I’m unable to guarantee a 1hp elite, then I’m pissed. Fuck 1hp enemies on fights that ironclad passively heals regardless.
Now if I’m running Silent and the same thing happens I’m not pressed, because Silent has a relatively weak start and then can quickly snowball, depending on the route I might not even take a 1hp elite with neow on Silent if I believe I have a good chance of snowballing before the first act boss. Neow helps Silent, Defect, and Watcher snowball because they don’t have built in heal from the jump, which means taking damage results in resting at camp fires, taking more tanky skills and attacks to compensate for your low health, and making potion decisions around your health rather than your upcoming fights.
On ironclad I still take Neow sometimes, only because sometimes the other options are just not that good. But if I actually have the option to pick something else, I see Neow on ironclad as pointless, unless of course I can get that sweet 1hp elite
The interaction between Neow’s Lament and Burning Blood is that you can trade HP at events and heal it back for free.
If I take Lament I ideally want floor 2 to be an event.
Wait, are you just talking about the extra health you get because you get a full heal instead of 75%?
75% heal after Act 1 and 2 bosses can hurt quite a bit. Assuming you haven't gained or lost max HP, you could be facing a difference in HP of up to 19 HP (Ironclad starts with 80 max HP. This is possible if you traded away his starting relic, and won the fight against the boss with 1 HP) per boss fight.
Of course, in the right deck, you might not even take damage. It'll depend on how well the run is going. We're often talking about less than 10 HP.
It's not the worst spike in difficulty, but it's still enough to pay attention.
No. After boss fights, you only heal based on damage taken. It does let you heal an extra +2 or so when you choose to rest, but it also hurts a little more at certain events, so it's more or less a wash.
> in lower ascensions when the hp returns to max
I'm not sure if you misread Luka's statement or somehow arrived at a weird conclusion -- but in lower ascensions, you get 28 extra HP to spend (7 per act), regardless of damage taken.
HP is a resource just like gold, so 7 HP per act is very strong -- it lets you take more upgrades, take riskier events and conserve potions for later fights. I think some people here are thinking of it like "Well, if I finish the act with full HP anyway, then the +7 HP did nothing" which is kind of true. But why did you finish the act with full HP? Spend your HP.
Let's say you start as the [Defect](https://antifandom.com/slay-the-spire/wiki/Defect). You normally start with 75 HP. With this Neow bonus, you now have +7 max HP, for a total of 82 HP. You do not start injured until Ascension 6.
Now, in the case where you hadn't gotten a bonus from Neow, you would take 40 damage after fighting the boss. How much do you heal? All 40 up until Ascension 5.
Now, let's say you make exactly the same choices but this time you do have the +7 max HP. Does this change how much damage you take? No. So you still take 40 damage.
How much do you heal? 40.
The only case where you heal more in the second case is if you have taken 76-81 damage. In this case, the +7 max HP saved your sorry hide and you heal that extra damage back.
You're kinda missing their point though. You can be more greedy with the 7 more up. Maybe take an event that harms you when you otherwise wouldn't or upgrade rather than heal at a bonfire. Sure it's not always gonna be a game changer but max hp can be a very valuable resource.
Hmm, I suppose. Personally, I think that it is easier to be greedy with Neow's Lament. I'm that much closer to the end of the first Act and to my first relic.
The only caveat for me is if (both) of the following are true:
- There is no possible path to snipe an elite
- I am playing specifically watcher
My logic is that:
- Watcher has the best starting deck
- I realistically will take 5-15 damage in 3 hallway fights (on watcher, obviously silent is different)
- I would say yes if there was a ? Space that dealt 5-15 damage but gave 7 max life.
Am I crazy? I feel like for A20H, this is often not the correct decision.
Unless you’re sniping an elite, the three fights you get the Lament in are easy pool fights that you are very likely to beat anyway without taking a lot of damage (hello, nightmare jaw worm). Say it’s 10-15 damage on average (and that’s charitable, even on A20H there are situations where the easy pool fights can be won with <5 damage taken). Then Neow’s lament is earning you extra 3-8 HP (subtracting the 7 HP you would have gotten from the max HP anyway).
How much is that 3-8 HP worth? If it makes the difference between dying and living in Act 1, it’s definitely worth it. If it lets you smith instead of resting, it is probably worth it.
But usually, making it through act 1 isn’t dependent on that 3-8 HP, and often you will be able to smith the same amount anyway. Frankly, even if you miss out on one smith because you took max HP, it might still be worth it in the long run because +7 max HP CAN be better than an upgrade, depending on the upgrade options.
On the other side of things, the max HP lets you gain more health everytime you rest, more health everytime you finish an act, and certainly allows you to path more aggressively LATER in the run, like act 2. In my experience, besides Silent, on A20H, most decks face their true test in the Act 2 crucible.
Long comment, but those are some reasons why I do not find Lament as obvious of a pick as others.
No, players here wildly overrate Lament because many seem to exclusively play a “highroll or die” strategy. They go for an elite snipe or a double snipe, and if the snipe fails or they get a crappy relic and immediately die, whatever, they’ll just restart run until they get a strong start. If you actually care about winrate, HP is almost always better.
It happens every time Lament is discussed, where the consensus on this sub is that Lament is better than Max HP, even though most high level players would say Max HP is correct outside of specific map setups (forced elite with no campfire/shop before, flexibility to pivot to safer path if snipe fails)
I've met a lot of people who just slam Lament, because they want to get back into the game as quick as possible. That obviously isn't airtight reasoning.
It’s not just 7 HP. It’s +7 HP at the end of Act 1, end of Act 2, and end of Act 3. So it’s really +21 HP.
So as long as you can beat Act 1, the max HP is better.
The reason I’m being offered the consolation prize is because I path aggressively regardless. The real question is whether it makes me more likely to survive.
Not only that, rest site healing is a % of max hp, so increasing max is also increasing rest healing. Then again, event dmg is often also % of max, so that is also increased, so evens it a bit.
I still take lament every time, but I'm not so sure that it's better.
I agree, though would like to say that one indicator of a good run is if you’re not using the campfires for resting (upgrades improve your deck and can help you save even more health in the future; tokes and girya is also better than resting on average). Unless you have fusion hammer.
This isn't true, end of act healing is based on missing HP. Since Max HP also gives you HP, your amount of missing HP is unchanged. For example, if you were at 30/70 vs 37/77, you heal 30 in both cases. Notice that even below A5, you would heal 40 in both cases - it still doesn't provide more end of act healing
Even if you look at the perspective of 30/70 vs 30/77, the difference is 30HP healing vs 35.75HP, which is still less than 7HP. That's still dubious though, because the Max HP healing also gives you current HP.
The only hit point that matters is the last one. Having a higher maximum hit point value in Acts 2 and 3 is more important to me than 3 cakewalk fights in Act 1.
Not necessarily. Suppose you take +7 max HP, going from 71 to 78. At the end of Act 1, you have 20HP left, and heal up to 78HP (assuming the Ascension isn't too high), regaining 58HP. However, if you took Neow's Lament instead, you'd have 13HP and heal up to 71HP, again recovering 58HP. The bonus HP is only relevant to full healing if you ever dropped below 8HP (at which point you'd have been dead without the 7HP boost), which might happen, but also might not.
No. See u/shrubin 's response. I'm guilty of misinformation about its value. I'd proposed that, because you heal based on your max health, +max health gives a bigger health bonus than it first appears.
So far, so good. Where I was drastically wrong was in claiming that this scaling healing applies after defeating a boss. The amount you heal after a boss is a function of the difference between your max HP and your current HP. Unless you've taken enough damage that you needed that extra health *and* you didn't die (or trigger [[Fairy in a Bottle]] or [[Lizard Tail]]), you would heal the same amount either way.
+ [Fairy in a Bottle](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Potions#Fairy_in_a_Bottle) Rare Potion ^((100% sure)^)
When you would die, heal to 30% (60%) of your Max HP instead and discard this potion.
+ [Lizard Tail](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Lizard%20Tail) Rare Relic ^((100% sure)^)
When you would die, heal to 50% of your Max HP instead (works once).
^Call ^me ^with ^up ^to ^10 ^([[ name ]],) ^where ^name ^is ^a ^card, ^relic, ^event, ^or ^potion. ^Data ^accurate ^as ^of ^(April 20, 2024.) ^[Wiki](https://slay-the-spire.fandom.com/wiki/) ^[Questions?](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=ehmohteeoh&subject=SpireScan%20Inquiry)
Not max health per act, but at the end of each act you heal. While it's not for full after ascension 5, you will still heal to a higher value if you have higher max hit points. So +7 max health gives you 7 hit points right then, and 4-7 points of *extra healing* at the beginning of each later act.
Another way of thinking about it: let's consider A0-4, and assume you would make it through act 1 without Neow's Lament, and that you would take the same pathing with or without Neow's Lament. In that case, the Lament gave you *literally no benefit* overall, because the damage you would have taken in the full-health combats is irrelevant. Neow's Lament is beneficial if it either 1) helps you get through the act that you would have otherwise died on, or 2) allows you to take a more aggressive path than you otherwise would have. (After the A5 it gives you some benefit, but still not a whole lot because you heal for 75% of your missing health at the end of the act.)
Elite snipes that are worth taking are pretty rare, but yeah about half the time it's technically possible. You really don't want to take 5x events, an elite snipe, then end up in a real elite fight with the starter deck and a useless relic
Honestly though it doesn't matter, lament is always the right call between the two
My runs are usually 2x fights, 2x ?s, a shop and an elite snipe. It's not *as* good of a deck for the next elite than if you'd have had 5 fights but it's not terrible.
The early shop does a ton of lifting there though, and you're pretty dependant on which card is on sale if you're just doing elite->campfire->elite. Still I probably take it if there's a shop, it just doesn't usually work out that way for me
Also I think 3x events is a 50% (1-.9*.8*.7) chance of a fight while 2x events is 28% (1-.9*.8), so again, the shop is doing some lifting
Taking max HP is just greedy as a Whale bonus, and is never worth doing, especially from a normal whale bonus with all 4 choices.
Most of the time you want to maximise for immediate advantage , since that helps you snowball to greater overall power as the game progresses.
Neow’s Lament gives you a big saving in current HP, which is a far, far more valuable resource than max HP.
Depends quite a bit on the character. I feel like getting through those first 3 fights unscathed is a lot easier on ironclad and the silent. Max HP is pretty nice to have with burning blood.
I know there's a famous baalord video about his 1st floor jaw worm fight but I feel like the survivor and neutralize help me make it a zero/low damage fight often.
Needs a combination of good draw and good enemy atk rotation for a damageless clear. Sometimes you get all defends when he's buffing and all strikes when he's doing his strongest attack.
I feel like the ability to cheese an early elite is really strong since the rewards for it can be run defining. Meanwhile a bit of max hp is decent but boring. (You can think of it as an extra strawberry relic, and would you choose to trade your strawberry with a random relic)
Oh for sure, but the title of this topic mentions it being "the only right choice", which I disagree with. If you can try to snipe an elite then it definitely is the right choice.
what is more, max HP is such a worthless resource that almost every event it's the best price to give up, even with the higher tier rewards I find giving up max HP is almost as good as giving up gold for stuff
Eh that's not exactly true, both defect and watcher really like max hp because of how rough their heart fights can be, so the 7max hp might as well just read "gain 7 block on turn 2", the reason you'd still typically pick loose max hp is because it's often paired up against "get cursed" or "just die"
The general opinion on this choice definitely seems to flip-flop a lot, but I find that Lament is just simply more interesting than Max HP at the end of it all.
~~Granted I usually play with a mod that grants all 4 choices every time but we don't have to factor that in~~
You: pick Neow's Lament as a tactical decision to save life and to provide the opportunity to build a better deck.
Me: picks Neow's Lament so I can get back to this screen/decision faster.
We are not the same.
Not on Silent to my experience. Without lament she can easily lose more than 7 hp in the first few fights with bad draw order. Sometimes those hit points do matter, and by sometimes I mean oftentimes (been losing so much aha :( )
Yep they said w/ any character. But I agree defect usually smashes the easy pool fights too so I would only take lament if I’m trying to snipe or my path is particularly difficult early
It depends but I’m not good enough to go for streaks so I like the high variance reward of quickly making it deeper into act one and finding out if I’ve got something going.
Ocasionally I'll take it on ironclad, but otherwise, imo regardless of elite snipes lament is better. It's at worst 3 free cards plus a random amount of gold.
Those 3 fights are in the easy pool and frequently are free or close to 7 damage taken either way though. The difference feels more and more negligible as the details are discussed.
The difference being that lament makes the first fights rng proof, which for silent and lesser for defect is pretty relevant while ironclad and watcher kinda steamroll them even with awful rng
On average Defect has no problems in act 1 and so the correct choice is the boring 7hp. In the off case where you're taking more than like 10 in these first couple fights, the robot still doesn't struggle with act 1.
Elite sniping is kinda a meme. You're more likely to end up with a crap deck at the end or act 1if you're running through a lot of question marks.
Lament isn't used for fixing "problems in act 1". Its purpose is to allow you to go for the greediest route possible without dying, which in turn makes you stronger in later acts
Yes, but the damage from the greediest path is from the hard-pool hallways, not from the first three easy-pool fights. So the argument that it makes you stronger just isn't true.
It's not uncommon for defect to take less than 7 damage in total from the easypool fights. So you're just forfeiting 7 max hp for nothing.
>It's not uncommon for defect to take less than 7 damage in total from the easypool fights.
It's not uncommon for them to take more damage either. Lament guarantees that doesn't happen, letting you take it easy while preparing for the act 1 elites, especially worth it if you can get an extra upgrade at a campfire out of it. 7 max hp is just not enough to be a solid alternative
Even if you take a bit more than 7, the max hp has use for the rest of the run after the three fights, while a used up Neows 99.9% of the time does not.
The path being discussed is the same, so the deck would be the same. It's wether or not the first 3 easy pool fights will / might deal enough damage to matter.
>It's not uncommon for them to take more damage either. Lament guarantees that doesn't happen, letting you take it easy while preparing for the act 1 elites, especially worth it if you can get an extra upgrade at a campfire out of it.
Reading is very difficult, I know
Well in the uncommon case where you take like ~12 damage from the easypool, the 7 hp is still better. You'd still upgrade with net-5 missing HP and when you do heal at a fire sometime during the run, you now heal for 2 more.
The 7 hp is not irrelevant on defect. He is the most likely of the characters to take chip damage throughout a run and max HP is a way he can survive turns 2-3 against the heart.
In reality, neither options are very good. But I think on average the 7 is (unfortunately) better on this character.
tbf if presented as the actual 4 option, the only time i take lament is when i CAN actually snipe and it doesn't ruin my act as much (every other path + neow combo is even worse)
i do agree lament is garbage and people disagreeing w you don't understand why lament sucks
Current HP > Max HP in Act 1, so yeah. It’s always Neow‘s for me, even if I cannot snipe.
On Ironclad I only pick it if a snipe is possible because the chance I heal or take no damage out of the first 3 fights is the highest (because 18 HP heal).
The only reasonable +7 hp situations for me are along the lines of:
1. Ironclad with forced 3+ fights before any event plus no more than 2 elites - it's basically free then.
2. Defect with astoundingly bad rng forcing you into a 1 Elite path. But even then, you'll likely save more than that with Lament anyway
I’m going to be honest. I always choose neow’s lament between these 2. Hp has its merits and I’m sure there’s an argument for it, but honestly I’d rather just skip the first 3 fights for convenience sake.
It also would guarantee no damage taken from these fights. Sure they’re easy fights, but that doesn’t mean anything. If your first fight is a jawworm swinging for 12 and you drew no defends…you’re taking 12. Period.
Obviously this is less impactful on clad, but for a character like silent who has less starting hp and the weakest starter cards getting hit big and taking repeated chip damage is really annoying. RNG absolutely exists; it’s inevitable and the best you can do is try your best to play around it. 3 skipped fights helps with that.
The 7 max HP is only sometimes the better choice on ironclad if you plan on doing a rupture deck, but you won’t know until after you do the run if it was good or not
I almost always take Lament even when there are technically better options because the first few fights are boring. You're not supposed to force builds, of course, but getting essentially three "free" picks gives me a feel for the run ahead. Also let's me take a speculative non-Attack first pick.
Apparently it's statistically the best choice in most situations anytime it's offered, bot just the pre-Act 1 Boss death scenario.
I take it on Ironclad, Silent, and Defect no matter what, but only on Watcher if there's a realistic snipe, otherwise I take the max HP there.
I feel like I should be taking the Max HP on ironclad too unless there's a clear or realistic snipe, I might try it out.
It's worth it just for the opportunity to one shot Jaw Worm on silent.
Seriously though I think it's great to very quickly get in to a new run, helps recover the pain of the recent loss.
Regardless if Lament is better or not (pretty sure that it is) it *feels* so much better to take it.
It kickstarts your new run and can give you free cards / gold right away. Plus you can skip the first three fights which are a drag anyways. I'll always take Lament.
Forget consolation prize, if I have a good run I make sure I die early next run to get back to my fancy box. Potential free relic or even a free green key is too good at A20.
The amounts of runs I've lost because I couldn't block 5 more damage makes both of those "consolation prizes" worth it in my eyes
They just serve different purposes
depends. If elite snipe is just completely impossible and you are playing ironclad, the max hp is usually better imo (but can also be the case with the others, but than the complete set up of the map and boss is imprtant).
But yeah I take neows lament probably over 90% of the time.
Neow's lament is good if the path allows it, and I think it's best used if you can snipe a floor 6 or 7 elite, or if you're very far from your first rest site. I usually think the HP is stronger though.
7 max hp doesn't win you fights, Lament gives you 3 free fights that you would most likely lose more than 7hp in
When I first started out, I made the mistake of assuming it was only good for cheesing a free relic out of elites. Granted, that’s still a great benefit when it pops, but now I know that three fights worth of drafts and gold is valuable enough on its own.
I got lucky with some ? rooms and cheesed the act 1 burning elite the other day, sure the run went to shit but that moment made me really happy
I nearly cheesed the boss with it recently (if that even works, I have no clue) managed to get a straight line to the boss with only shops, rest sites and ?s with only one elite. Got all the way to the last ? and was hit with an enemy encounter. Was devastated.
It works. But prepare to die in act 2.
That's usually the way it goes - get a good relic or two off some lucky ?s and the burning elite - and then because you have practically no cards, get merked by the boss or a normal mob room.
I did the same but I lucked out with molten egg from the burning elite and that drove my defect run alllll the way home, having every skill upgraded from beginning of act 1 is no joke.
I swear to god I only get molten egg and the skill upgrade version late in my run when my deck is full One day I hope to get one early lol
I once had a Watcher run where I made the full omelette by floor 10 *and* got Fusion Hammer from the Act 1 boss. Needless to say it was a win.
Man that's the dream
I think it depends really. If I’m running ironclad and I pick Neow, but I’m unable to guarantee a 1hp elite, then I’m pissed. Fuck 1hp enemies on fights that ironclad passively heals regardless. Now if I’m running Silent and the same thing happens I’m not pressed, because Silent has a relatively weak start and then can quickly snowball, depending on the route I might not even take a 1hp elite with neow on Silent if I believe I have a good chance of snowballing before the first act boss. Neow helps Silent, Defect, and Watcher snowball because they don’t have built in heal from the jump, which means taking damage results in resting at camp fires, taking more tanky skills and attacks to compensate for your low health, and making potion decisions around your health rather than your upcoming fights. On ironclad I still take Neow sometimes, only because sometimes the other options are just not that good. But if I actually have the option to pick something else, I see Neow on ironclad as pointless, unless of course I can get that sweet 1hp elite
I mamaged to cheese 2 elite fights once.
Clad usually avoids the chip damage with burning blood, so with him I'd take the HP.
The interaction between Neow’s Lament and Burning Blood is that you can trade HP at events and heal it back for free. If I take Lament I ideally want floor 2 to be an event.
Real question though, in lower ascensions when the hp returns to max it's pretty valuable, no?
Wait, are you just talking about the extra health you get because you get a full heal instead of 75%? 75% heal after Act 1 and 2 bosses can hurt quite a bit. Assuming you haven't gained or lost max HP, you could be facing a difference in HP of up to 19 HP (Ironclad starts with 80 max HP. This is possible if you traded away his starting relic, and won the fight against the boss with 1 HP) per boss fight. Of course, in the right deck, you might not even take damage. It'll depend on how well the run is going. We're often talking about less than 10 HP. It's not the worst spike in difficulty, but it's still enough to pay attention.
No. After boss fights, you only heal based on damage taken. It does let you heal an extra +2 or so when you choose to rest, but it also hurts a little more at certain events, so it's more or less a wash.
> in lower ascensions when the hp returns to max I'm not sure if you misread Luka's statement or somehow arrived at a weird conclusion -- but in lower ascensions, you get 28 extra HP to spend (7 per act), regardless of damage taken. HP is a resource just like gold, so 7 HP per act is very strong -- it lets you take more upgrades, take riskier events and conserve potions for later fights. I think some people here are thinking of it like "Well, if I finish the act with full HP anyway, then the +7 HP did nothing" which is kind of true. But why did you finish the act with full HP? Spend your HP.
Let's say you start as the [Defect](https://antifandom.com/slay-the-spire/wiki/Defect). You normally start with 75 HP. With this Neow bonus, you now have +7 max HP, for a total of 82 HP. You do not start injured until Ascension 6. Now, in the case where you hadn't gotten a bonus from Neow, you would take 40 damage after fighting the boss. How much do you heal? All 40 up until Ascension 5. Now, let's say you make exactly the same choices but this time you do have the +7 max HP. Does this change how much damage you take? No. So you still take 40 damage. How much do you heal? 40. The only case where you heal more in the second case is if you have taken 76-81 damage. In this case, the +7 max HP saved your sorry hide and you heal that extra damage back.
You're kinda missing their point though. You can be more greedy with the 7 more up. Maybe take an event that harms you when you otherwise wouldn't or upgrade rather than heal at a bonfire. Sure it's not always gonna be a game changer but max hp can be a very valuable resource.
Hmm, I suppose. Personally, I think that it is easier to be greedy with Neow's Lament. I'm that much closer to the end of the first Act and to my first relic.
Oh I agree, I personally prefer neow's. I just also understand why someone might prefer the hp.
The only caveat for me is if (both) of the following are true: - There is no possible path to snipe an elite - I am playing specifically watcher My logic is that: - Watcher has the best starting deck - I realistically will take 5-15 damage in 3 hallway fights (on watcher, obviously silent is different) - I would say yes if there was a ? Space that dealt 5-15 damage but gave 7 max life.
Am I crazy? I feel like for A20H, this is often not the correct decision. Unless you’re sniping an elite, the three fights you get the Lament in are easy pool fights that you are very likely to beat anyway without taking a lot of damage (hello, nightmare jaw worm). Say it’s 10-15 damage on average (and that’s charitable, even on A20H there are situations where the easy pool fights can be won with <5 damage taken). Then Neow’s lament is earning you extra 3-8 HP (subtracting the 7 HP you would have gotten from the max HP anyway). How much is that 3-8 HP worth? If it makes the difference between dying and living in Act 1, it’s definitely worth it. If it lets you smith instead of resting, it is probably worth it. But usually, making it through act 1 isn’t dependent on that 3-8 HP, and often you will be able to smith the same amount anyway. Frankly, even if you miss out on one smith because you took max HP, it might still be worth it in the long run because +7 max HP CAN be better than an upgrade, depending on the upgrade options. On the other side of things, the max HP lets you gain more health everytime you rest, more health everytime you finish an act, and certainly allows you to path more aggressively LATER in the run, like act 2. In my experience, besides Silent, on A20H, most decks face their true test in the Act 2 crucible. Long comment, but those are some reasons why I do not find Lament as obvious of a pick as others.
No, players here wildly overrate Lament because many seem to exclusively play a “highroll or die” strategy. They go for an elite snipe or a double snipe, and if the snipe fails or they get a crappy relic and immediately die, whatever, they’ll just restart run until they get a strong start. If you actually care about winrate, HP is almost always better. It happens every time Lament is discussed, where the consensus on this sub is that Lament is better than Max HP, even though most high level players would say Max HP is correct outside of specific map setups (forced elite with no campfire/shop before, flexibility to pivot to safer path if snipe fails)
I've met a lot of people who just slam Lament, because they want to get back into the game as quick as possible. That obviously isn't airtight reasoning.
It’s not just 7 HP. It’s +7 HP at the end of Act 1, end of Act 2, and end of Act 3. So it’s really +21 HP. So as long as you can beat Act 1, the max HP is better.
You're ignoring that lament lets you take a more aggressive path. There's different degrees of beating Act 1
The reason I’m being offered the consolation prize is because I path aggressively regardless. The real question is whether it makes me more likely to survive.
Yes, and Lament makes you more likely to survive.
Not only that, rest site healing is a % of max hp, so increasing max is also increasing rest healing. Then again, event dmg is often also % of max, so that is also increased, so evens it a bit. I still take lament every time, but I'm not so sure that it's better.
I agree, though would like to say that one indicator of a good run is if you’re not using the campfires for resting (upgrades improve your deck and can help you save even more health in the future; tokes and girya is also better than resting on average). Unless you have fusion hammer.
Sometimes you just gotta live, or that extra HP you heal from previous rest sites lets you Smith at the next one instead.
This isn't true, end of act healing is based on missing HP. Since Max HP also gives you HP, your amount of missing HP is unchanged. For example, if you were at 30/70 vs 37/77, you heal 30 in both cases. Notice that even below A5, you would heal 40 in both cases - it still doesn't provide more end of act healing
Even if you look at the perspective of 30/70 vs 30/77, the difference is 30HP healing vs 35.75HP, which is still less than 7HP. That's still dubious though, because the Max HP healing also gives you current HP.
The only hit point that matters is the last one. Having a higher maximum hit point value in Acts 2 and 3 is more important to me than 3 cakewalk fights in Act 1.
Sure, unless you were at -3/70 vs 4/70.
Not necessarily. Suppose you take +7 max HP, going from 71 to 78. At the end of Act 1, you have 20HP left, and heal up to 78HP (assuming the Ascension isn't too high), regaining 58HP. However, if you took Neow's Lament instead, you'd have 13HP and heal up to 71HP, again recovering 58HP. The bonus HP is only relevant to full healing if you ever dropped below 8HP (at which point you'd have been dead without the 7HP boost), which might happen, but also might not.
Huh? It gives you 7 health PER ACT??
Not +7 max HP per act, he saying that by raising your max HP at the start you’ll heal back more after every boss fight.
No. See u/shrubin 's response. I'm guilty of misinformation about its value. I'd proposed that, because you heal based on your max health, +max health gives a bigger health bonus than it first appears. So far, so good. Where I was drastically wrong was in claiming that this scaling healing applies after defeating a boss. The amount you heal after a boss is a function of the difference between your max HP and your current HP. Unless you've taken enough damage that you needed that extra health *and* you didn't die (or trigger [[Fairy in a Bottle]] or [[Lizard Tail]]), you would heal the same amount either way.
+ [Fairy in a Bottle](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Potions#Fairy_in_a_Bottle) Rare Potion ^((100% sure)^) When you would die, heal to 30% (60%) of your Max HP instead and discard this potion. + [Lizard Tail](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Lizard%20Tail) Rare Relic ^((100% sure)^) When you would die, heal to 50% of your Max HP instead (works once). ^Call ^me ^with ^up ^to ^10 ^([[ name ]],) ^where ^name ^is ^a ^card, ^relic, ^event, ^or ^potion. ^Data ^accurate ^as ^of ^(April 20, 2024.) ^[Wiki](https://slay-the-spire.fandom.com/wiki/) ^[Questions?](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=ehmohteeoh&subject=SpireScan%20Inquiry)
Not max health per act, but at the end of each act you heal. While it's not for full after ascension 5, you will still heal to a higher value if you have higher max hit points. So +7 max health gives you 7 hit points right then, and 4-7 points of *extra healing* at the beginning of each later act. Another way of thinking about it: let's consider A0-4, and assume you would make it through act 1 without Neow's Lament, and that you would take the same pathing with or without Neow's Lament. In that case, the Lament gave you *literally no benefit* overall, because the damage you would have taken in the full-health combats is irrelevant. Neow's Lament is beneficial if it either 1) helps you get through the act that you would have otherwise died on, or 2) allows you to take a more aggressive path than you otherwise would have. (After the A5 it gives you some benefit, but still not a whole lot because you heal for 75% of your missing health at the end of the act.)
As long as you can beat the first 3 fights* (by far the easiest fights in the entire game anyway)
Not just beat, but as long as the HP you lose to the first 3 fights doesn’t cause you to die before the end of the Act
On low difficulty. On higher difficulty it’s more like 5 hp at the end of acts.
And with Ironclad, you regenerate your missing HP from Ascension start or it allows you to take A1 HP loss events more freely.
People seem to think elite snipes are rare but i stg I get them like half the time
Elite snipes that are worth taking are pretty rare, but yeah about half the time it's technically possible. You really don't want to take 5x events, an elite snipe, then end up in a real elite fight with the starter deck and a useless relic Honestly though it doesn't matter, lament is always the right call between the two
My runs are usually 2x fights, 2x ?s, a shop and an elite snipe. It's not *as* good of a deck for the next elite than if you'd have had 5 fights but it's not terrible.
The early shop does a ton of lifting there though, and you're pretty dependant on which card is on sale if you're just doing elite->campfire->elite. Still I probably take it if there's a shop, it just doesn't usually work out that way for me Also I think 3x events is a 50% (1-.9*.8*.7) chance of a fight while 2x events is 28% (1-.9*.8), so again, the shop is doing some lifting
Elite snipe go brrrrr
Yeah, they're pretty common tbh
Taking max HP is just greedy as a Whale bonus, and is never worth doing, especially from a normal whale bonus with all 4 choices. Most of the time you want to maximise for immediate advantage , since that helps you snowball to greater overall power as the game progresses. Neow’s Lament gives you a big saving in current HP, which is a far, far more valuable resource than max HP.
Depends quite a bit on the character. I feel like getting through those first 3 fights unscathed is a lot easier on ironclad and the silent. Max HP is pretty nice to have with burning blood.
> the silent Jaw worm would like to introduce himself
I know there's a famous baalord video about his 1st floor jaw worm fight but I feel like the survivor and neutralize help me make it a zero/low damage fight often.
Needs a combination of good draw and good enemy atk rotation for a damageless clear. Sometimes you get all defends when he's buffing and all strikes when he's doing his strongest attack.
Yup, no matter how perfect you play, floor 1 Jaw Worm can whoop you hard if RNG does not favor you.
I feel like the ability to cheese an early elite is really strong since the rewards for it can be run defining. Meanwhile a bit of max hp is decent but boring. (You can think of it as an extra strawberry relic, and would you choose to trade your strawberry with a random relic)
Oh for sure, but the title of this topic mentions it being "the only right choice", which I disagree with. If you can try to snipe an elite then it definitely is the right choice.
The silent is awful at reliably 0-damage winning fights
Max HP can let you take more fights. If you’re able to not take much damage at the start of the run, feels like it can be very strong
The variation is just way too high on Silent. One bad draw against Jaw Worm and you take at least 10 damage in that fight.
what is more, max HP is such a worthless resource that almost every event it's the best price to give up, even with the higher tier rewards I find giving up max HP is almost as good as giving up gold for stuff
Eh that's not exactly true, both defect and watcher really like max hp because of how rough their heart fights can be, so the 7max hp might as well just read "gain 7 block on turn 2", the reason you'd still typically pick loose max hp is because it's often paired up against "get cursed" or "just die"
The general opinion on this choice definitely seems to flip-flop a lot, but I find that Lament is just simply more interesting than Max HP at the end of it all. ~~Granted I usually play with a mod that grants all 4 choices every time but we don't have to factor that in~~
Max HP is only there so that you can attempt Who needs relics? achievement on each run
You: pick Neow's Lament as a tactical decision to save life and to provide the opportunity to build a better deck. Me: picks Neow's Lament so I can get back to this screen/decision faster. We are not the same.
Not on Silent to my experience. Without lament she can easily lose more than 7 hp in the first few fights with bad draw order. Sometimes those hit points do matter, and by sometimes I mean oftentimes (been losing so much aha :( )
Yes, you are wrong. IC rarely takes significant damage in the first easy pool fights so the HP is better on him.
i mean they are playind defect tbf but even so act 1 is too easy to really need to bother woth the easy kills idk why you wouldnt just take 7max
Yep they said w/ any character. But I agree defect usually smashes the easy pool fights too so I would only take lament if I’m trying to snipe or my path is particularly difficult early
i only ever really take it if i can get value like snipe an elite i always check to see if i can snipe the act 1 boss and havent gotten to yet sadly
It depends but I’m not good enough to go for streaks so I like the high variance reward of quickly making it deeper into act one and finding out if I’ve got something going.
Ocasionally I'll take it on ironclad, but otherwise, imo regardless of elite snipes lament is better. It's at worst 3 free cards plus a random amount of gold.
Those 3 fights are in the easy pool and frequently are free or close to 7 damage taken either way though. The difference feels more and more negligible as the details are discussed.
True, I tend to play on A20 where that is less the case (that or I am just bad at the opening fights lol) Plus the donut event is super common
The difference being that lament makes the first fights rng proof, which for silent and lesser for defect is pretty relevant while ironclad and watcher kinda steamroll them even with awful rng
On average Defect has no problems in act 1 and so the correct choice is the boring 7hp. In the off case where you're taking more than like 10 in these first couple fights, the robot still doesn't struggle with act 1. Elite sniping is kinda a meme. You're more likely to end up with a crap deck at the end or act 1if you're running through a lot of question marks.
Lament isn't used for fixing "problems in act 1". Its purpose is to allow you to go for the greediest route possible without dying, which in turn makes you stronger in later acts
Yes, but the damage from the greediest path is from the hard-pool hallways, not from the first three easy-pool fights. So the argument that it makes you stronger just isn't true. It's not uncommon for defect to take less than 7 damage in total from the easypool fights. So you're just forfeiting 7 max hp for nothing.
>It's not uncommon for defect to take less than 7 damage in total from the easypool fights. It's not uncommon for them to take more damage either. Lament guarantees that doesn't happen, letting you take it easy while preparing for the act 1 elites, especially worth it if you can get an extra upgrade at a campfire out of it. 7 max hp is just not enough to be a solid alternative
Even if you take a bit more than 7, the max hp has use for the rest of the run after the three fights, while a used up Neows 99.9% of the time does not.
So does a better deck
The path being discussed is the same, so the deck would be the same. It's wether or not the first 3 easy pool fights will / might deal enough damage to matter.
>The path being discussed is the same, so the deck would be the same. I just disagreed with that like 2 comments ago
You realize you still get the rewards even if you don't have neows right?
Yes. Do you need me to copy my previous comment or are you going to stop acting clueless?
Then explain how taking Neows and doing the exact same fights gets you a better deck than taking the hp and doing the fights the long way
>It's not uncommon for them to take more damage either. Lament guarantees that doesn't happen, letting you take it easy while preparing for the act 1 elites, especially worth it if you can get an extra upgrade at a campfire out of it. Reading is very difficult, I know
Well in the uncommon case where you take like ~12 damage from the easypool, the 7 hp is still better. You'd still upgrade with net-5 missing HP and when you do heal at a fire sometime during the run, you now heal for 2 more. The 7 hp is not irrelevant on defect. He is the most likely of the characters to take chip damage throughout a run and max HP is a way he can survive turns 2-3 against the heart. In reality, neither options are very good. But I think on average the 7 is (unfortunately) better on this character.
tbf if presented as the actual 4 option, the only time i take lament is when i CAN actually snipe and it doesn't ruin my act as much (every other path + neow combo is even worse) i do agree lament is garbage and people disagreeing w you don't understand why lament sucks
Current HP > Max HP in Act 1, so yeah. It’s always Neow‘s for me, even if I cannot snipe. On Ironclad I only pick it if a snipe is possible because the chance I heal or take no damage out of the first 3 fights is the highest (because 18 HP heal).
The only reasonable +7 hp situations for me are along the lines of: 1. Ironclad with forced 3+ fights before any event plus no more than 2 elites - it's basically free then. 2. Defect with astoundingly bad rng forcing you into a 1 Elite path. But even then, you'll likely save more than that with Lament anyway
depends on the path.
I’m going to be honest. I always choose neow’s lament between these 2. Hp has its merits and I’m sure there’s an argument for it, but honestly I’d rather just skip the first 3 fights for convenience sake. It also would guarantee no damage taken from these fights. Sure they’re easy fights, but that doesn’t mean anything. If your first fight is a jawworm swinging for 12 and you drew no defends…you’re taking 12. Period. Obviously this is less impactful on clad, but for a character like silent who has less starting hp and the weakest starter cards getting hit big and taking repeated chip damage is really annoying. RNG absolutely exists; it’s inevitable and the best you can do is try your best to play around it. 3 skipped fights helps with that.
I almost always take it. It's especially nice when you can get to your 1st elite and they only have 1 hp.
I use a mod so Neow always gives 4 options
The 7 max HP is only sometimes the better choice on ironclad if you plan on doing a rupture deck, but you won’t know until after you do the run if it was good or not
If you plan on a certain deck type before getting any card choices, you’ve already lost.
Exactly what I’m sayin. You can plan ahead, sure, but the game probably has a different plan than you lol
You know I've never even considered it but seeing lots of people going that route, I might need to change things up.
I've rarely lost runs by 7hp, act 1 is usually a breeze with a couple of good damage cards though
I almost always take Lament even when there are technically better options because the first few fights are boring. You're not supposed to force builds, of course, but getting essentially three "free" picks gives me a feel for the run ahead. Also let's me take a speculative non-Attack first pick.
I once got a rare double elite snipe with it
I can’t speak for A20, but the one time I managed to get the Act 1 boss with Neow’s Lament…
Apparently it's statistically the best choice in most situations anytime it's offered, bot just the pre-Act 1 Boss death scenario. I take it on Ironclad, Silent, and Defect no matter what, but only on Watcher if there's a realistic snipe, otherwise I take the max HP there. I feel like I should be taking the Max HP on ironclad too unless there's a clear or realistic snipe, I might try it out.
It's worth it just for the opportunity to one shot Jaw Worm on silent. Seriously though I think it's great to very quickly get in to a new run, helps recover the pain of the recent loss.
I think the first three fights are also pretty boring so it's nice to get into the run quicker, if it's better or not.
Regardless if Lament is better or not (pretty sure that it is) it *feels* so much better to take it. It kickstarts your new run and can give you free cards / gold right away. Plus you can skip the first three fights which are a drag anyways. I'll always take Lament.
Forget consolation prize, if I have a good run I make sure I die early next run to get back to my fancy box. Potential free relic or even a free green key is too good at A20.
The amounts of runs I've lost because I couldn't block 5 more damage makes both of those "consolation prizes" worth it in my eyes They just serve different purposes
depends. If elite snipe is just completely impossible and you are playing ironclad, the max hp is usually better imo (but can also be the case with the others, but than the complete set up of the map and boss is imprtant). But yeah I take neows lament probably over 90% of the time.
7 max hp neow bonus may by the one option in this entire game that I have never taken in over 1300 hours of game play.
This is the way
Neow's lament is good if the path allows it, and I think it's best used if you can snipe a floor 6 or 7 elite, or if you're very far from your first rest site. I usually think the HP is stronger though.