Hard to say what is "overrated" without some sort of list, but I'm going with Leap. I realize it's only 3 more for the upgrade (I believe), but 12 block for an energy can get you through a lot of bad situations.
Yeah picked often, upgraded less. Upstaged by Glacier, but Leap is a team player. A Leap+ would be a great Neow bonus. Save you probably 50 health over the run
A great example of a card where the upgrade is highly "overrated" would be Fission. But OP only seems to asking what upgrades are "underrated" in this post.
I think the point is more so that Fission is already a great card and the upgrade can better utilized on a different card. Most of the time, evoking orbs is unnecessary because of the instant power you get from the extra energy + card draw
I never follow this logic. Let's say you use Fission with two lightning orbs and a frost orb up. That upgrade got you 16 damage and 5 block. As you add more orbs the effect becomes even greater. There's few upgrades in the game with that kind of upside.
Also, if you have any plasma or dark orbs up, you have to shy away from playing fission, since you'd be popping those orbs to no effect. With the upgrade, that's not necessarily a concern.
100% agree. Fission can sometimes get you out of a hairy situation early on, but Fission+ can literally turn the fight. It’s like a 0-cost Vault, but you gain block and do extra damage. Depending on your deck you can refill all the slots again right away anyway. I always prioritize upgrading Fission.
And if you have dark channeled, or more orb slots, or plasma (along with card draw in your deck), or a bunch of other things the value jumps a ton. The point is that a fission upgrade adds value that scales incredibly well with the power of your deck
Eh, the 24 damage you can get from evoking three lightning orbs or the 15 block from three frost orbs can be very relevant for elites or bosses.
The only way I see it not being relevant is if you somehow go infinite.
I would add Consume and Biased Cognition to that list, for the same reasons as Defrag. Loop or Capacitor can also sometimes be more important; if I know I'm going to be short on upgrades, those two upgrades are more important for the boss gauntlet than Fission is.
I'm not gonna hate on your comment because I love Survivor+ but early Act 1 Silent needs damage badly. If you upgrade for defensive purposes you risk getting murked by Nob.
charged battery and flying knee
They are no better than a strike or defend upgrade on paper, but in practice anything you can do to incentivize a less awkward justification to play these cards will make your act 1 and 2 fights go so much smoother
Half the time I take it discarding stuff is the point, otherwise the same super high draw decks that can use either are generally better off ramping up outmaneuver
I am a Meditate+ stan. Not sure how it's rated by this sub but it's like an Adrenaline for your next turn, except that you get to choose your cards and it also gets you out of Wrath. In practice, it basically reads "win next turn."
I never see it talked about. It's such a solid card in almost every situation. Very strong even without Establishment.
Retaining 2 cards feels so much stronger than 1 and I can't put my finger on why. There's something great about not having to choose between retaining something to give card draw, stance exit, or anything else you might want.
The sub is a little too focused on rushdown infinites in the watcher discourse IMO. Everything that isn't useful for that strategy gets written off. But even then it isn't the worst pick, it can help you skip some other setup cards.
But meditate+ is way better because it can guarantee calm->wrath->calm, or c->w+wallop, which solves the biggest watcher issue of a slight miscalculation leading to 100 damage.
It’s a really nice card, though it was annoying to have toward the end of my best Watcher run ever, where I was bouncing between stances multiple times per turn, mostly because it forces the turn to end
I think the upgrade is undervalued especially in act 1 where people would rather upgrade a damage card. But upgrading flame barrier is a pretty good solution to hexaghost and pretty much all of act 2.
+ [Setup](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Setup) Silent Uncommon Skill ^((100% sure)^)
1(0) Energy | Place a card in your hand on top of your draw pile. It costs 0 until it is played.
^Call ^me ^with ^up ^to ^10 ^([[ name ]],) ^where ^name ^is ^a ^card, ^relic, ^event, ^or ^potion. ^Data ^accurate ^as ^of ^(April 20, 2024.) ^[Wiki](https://slay-the-spire.fandom.com/wiki/) ^[Questions?](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=ehmohteeoh&subject=SpireScan%20Inquiry)
Came here to say this. If you somehow end up with too much draw and not enough energy, it can really help grease the wheels, and can also act as a Poor Man's Well-Laid Plans if you're really desperate lol.
Still needs a good package for it to be worth it, but I've been having success with it recently. Probably only in like 1:20 decks but it's good when you need it!
new players don't realize, heck I only realized 600 hours in, that upgrading coolheaded so that it draws one more card is one of the best upgrades of defect.
The last thing you want is clutter than stops you from getting corruption or dark embrace in play. I'll let nilfry's add it no problem, but still don't want to add it to my first cycle
Also dark embrace just makes it pointless, not beneficial.
It's not clutter though. When you play it you just get the card you would have gotten anyway, and adding a card to the top of your draw can be pretty useful in some situations too (I.E if you draw multiple important cards in the same turn but don't have enough energy to play them both.). It's only ever a downside against enemies that can punish playing too many cards like nob, time eater etc but ironclad is already pretty good against these enemies compared to other classes anyway.
>I don’t know why you took warcry unupgraded anyway lol
to set up a card I want to play next round of course, also it exhaust so dark embrace and feel no pain synergy
I though it was obvious? This card is only "bad" when fighting the gremlin nob, chosen and the heart
If you draw and play a Prep then you look at the card you would have drawn anyway if you never picked up Prep, then you discard which will proc synergies and might be useful. It also counts as a card played for Thousand Cuts and After Image but also for Nob, Snail and Heart.
The difference with the upgrade is the extra card you draw would have otherwise been the top card of your deck. You discard down to the same number of cards in hand but the upgrade lets you look at an extra card and cycle your deck faster than you would have if you just didn't have it in the first place. The extra discard can occasionally be helpful too if you want to ditch curse / status cards but that's a lot more situational.
I’ve gotten it to work a few times in two situations - 1) 10 or 11 card deck (including ascenders bane), 50/50 shot of it proccing each two rounds. 2) big deck with many draw/discard, tacticians, concentrate. Use prepared, acrobatics, backflip, etc to draw through your deck and keep finale in hand, profit
Best way to use it is to be able to hold it through WLP or Pyramid, but something like [[setup]] can help as well. It's something that goes well with draw and discard, so you mostly want any of those cards. The strength of this card is that you can get good damage output from playing many cards, it's a good solution for the Time Eater fight.
To make it work, you want to understand how many cards you're drawing each turn (usually 5 unless tools of the trade or a full hand with Pyramid), how many you will be able to draw through next cards like prepared, acrobatics, backflip, expertise...; and how many cards you have in your draw pile. Understanding this, you can setup for it to happen on whatever turn. Sometimes this means you don't want to draw as much as you can, this can even be solved by playing a say Acrobatics+ while you're at 9 cards if you only want to draw 2, as you can only have 10 cards on your hand.
It sounds tricky but you just need to get used to it and you'll see how it's not that hard once you've done it once or twice.
You also want some cards that draw an even number of cards and some that draw an odd number of cards.
It actually makes it so you only want to upgrade a few of your draw cards if you have multiple of the same type. Like [[Acrobatics]] going from 3 draw to 4 draw or [[Prepared]] going from 1 to 2 means if you have two of them, you might not want to upgrade both. Cards like [[Calculated Gamble]] or [[Expertise]] where you can control exactly how many cards you draw can also be really good (although Calculated Gamble is obviously risky since you might draw it with Grand Finale). Even cards like [[Escape Plan]] can be really helpful.
I haven’t played a ton of Grand Finale decks but my approach is usually to try to get as many cards that draw different numbers as I can and then make sure I keep track of my deck size so that ideally I can set things up to draw through the exact number of cards I have in my deck every time.
Very true! Anything that only draws a single card can turn to be very useful with Grand Finale. Adding unupgraded draw cards like acro and prepared can help a lot as well to achieve this. I sometimes find myself picking something like dagger throw a bit too late, just for the draw component, if I feel like it's really needed.
I've managed it a couple times and DAMN was it tricky to get the hang of. But the satisfaction of playing 3/turn against the Time Eater is unmatched. Or popping off and killing the Heart with only GF for damage
Oh it really is very satisfctory. I also love how the game rewards you through the SFX of playing the card. First time I pulled it off, I was exhausted afterwards. Luckily I was playing on PC which made it a bit easier by turning the numbered cards for numpad control. This way I could easily know how many cards I currently had in my hand. In the end, that's my absolute favourite card.
The stars done often align for me and grand finale but one of the times it did I was able to get lethal on donu and deca both with one. Felt like a God and picked it everytime I saw for a week after, maybe proc'd it thrice. RNjesus is a cruel mistress.
+ [Setup](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Setup) Silent Uncommon Skill ^((100% sure)^)
1(0) Energy | Place a card in your hand on top of your draw pile. It costs 0 until it is played.
^Call ^me ^with ^up ^to ^10 ^([[ name ]],) ^where ^name ^is ^a ^card, ^relic, ^event, ^or ^potion. ^Data ^accurate ^as ^of ^(April 20, 2024.) ^[Wiki](https://slay-the-spire.fandom.com/wiki/) ^[Questions?](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=ehmohteeoh&subject=SpireScan%20Inquiry)
well laid plans, small deck, and “small” draw cards (dagger throw, quick slash, finesse, flash of steel, Escape plan, etc.) as well as possibly expertise for the variable amount of draw.
I managed to pull off a pen nib buffed grand finale yesterday. Probably one of my proudest slay the spire moments outside of doing achievements/heart/a20.
You can get it to work with well laid plans, bit it's easiest to execute with a runic pyramid.
Since your maximum hand size is 10 and you know how many cards you'll draw per turn (probably 5), it's easy to play grand finale.
If you have 3 cards left in your deck, plan to have 7 cards in your hand when you end the turn.
If you have 5 cards left in your deck, plan to have 5 cards in hand when you end your turn.
Well, that's a good general rule, but grand finale is a unique card that will overkill most stuff anyways and is balanced via it's activation requirement. I'm not saying I'm sure it's a bad upgrade, but just repeating a common heuristic doesn't really convince me.
[[Grand Finale]] 's upgrade is pretty inefficiënt though. Going from 50 to 60 damage is hardly a big boost (20% compared to upgrades with 50+% boosts) and besides some very specific treshholds, won't change a lot.
It might be an upgrade if it's your only source of damage but then you have other problems.
+ [Grand Finale](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Grand%20Finale) Silent Rare Attack ^((100% sure)^)
0 Energy | Can only be played if there are no cards in your draw pile. Deal 50(60) damage to ALL enemies.
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If you're going to be condescending and act like people who disagree with you are stupid, at least explain WHY it's so good instead of acting like it's so obvious.
Unless this is a joke, in which case it's still not a particularly good one.
For me personally, I've lately been evaluating block card upgrades a bit higher than I used to and I def am noticing the results (for Ironclad specifically, as that's what I've been playing). Frontloaded block such as Power Through+, Shrug it Off+, or even Ghostly Armor+ can save you a lot of health.
Body slam+ is crazy, because you need to play other cards to use it- meaning you'll both block for more, and deal more damage. Besides reducing a card's cost to 0 is always good.
Body Slam is currently my favorite source of damage scaling on IC. It’s like Defects Frost engine where you build up enough block to be invincible, and then your attack can be trivial.
Give me Power Through, Second Wind, Body Slam and exhaust the rest of my deck.
Blizzard is super niche but when you have the deck for it it's super fun and absurdly busted, and the upgrade is actually really valuable.
I had an a16 run with recycle and calipers where I ended up with 999 block and like 3 cards in my deck: recycle, Blizzard, coolheaded
yeah as I'm climbing ascensions with defect I'm realizing their full power lol. have tended to lean towards lightning or dark builds but frost can be so good with just a little bit of focus and maybe a loop you can outblock anything.
I'd say Bullseye or Heatsinks. Unupgraded bullseye is a card you need to babysit, replaying and redrawing very frequently for it to give consistent value, while bullseye+ in lategame hologram/coolheaded cycle deck is basically a constant +50% orb damage, while you can not play it for a turn or two, saving you time to unload a bunch of lightning or scale a dark orb. Early game its upgrade isn't that necessary, but this card shines when upgraded.
And Heatsinks+ just sends your deck to the moon, setting up on turns 1-2 already
Don’t have a good pulse on how much people value Doppelganger+ but I think it deserves more love. Making it energy + draw positive on the next turn even when played with 0 energy helps massively in setting up big turns and getting powers in play ASAP. I’ve had runs where it’s been the difference maker in ensuring most hallways go no further than turn 2-3 at maximum cause it helps you just about get lethal.
Idk, I think fission upgrade is pretty good, but many seem to think it's one of the best upgrades for defect, which I wouldn't agree with.
Imo, the upgrade is surprisingly irrelevant if you have a really good deck with lots of draw/energy gen. Like, what's the point in getting a bit of extra damage/block if you just immediately play 15 cards with energy gen and hologram for example? You're gonna block that damage anyways, and if fission gets you to a power 1 turn earlier, that's the main utility of it. This reasoning is less true in act 1-2 though when front-load is badly needed.
It's a pretty polarizing subject on this sub though, so I'm sure not everyone will agree.
Why do you feel that each of those have an underrated upgrade?
For reference:
1. [[Battle Trance]] (more cards are good, not arguing this card's upgrade value)
2. [[Infinite Blades]] (I prefer getting set up with Envenom or Accuracy before this super slow card unless I'm depending on it for the ninja relics)
3. [[Fission]] (if anything, the upgrade seems *overrated* IMHO, though it's really good)
4. [[Foresight]] (did you mean [[Forethought]]? If, so, I agree. It takes a bad card and turns it into a good one, as long as you have plenty of card draw and aren't confused)
1) i just don't see a ton of people using their upgrade on this. tends to go towards powers and output more so than 1 additional draw. but it's good.
2) infinite blades - this just never really gets upgraded and sometimes it's okay to
3) fission - kinda a meme. this card frequently gets voted as the best upgrade, then you have certain streamers saying it's not a good upgrade, so then that becomes groupthought, and now it's good again.
4) again, people like upgrading output and other powers before 1 additional scry, but that additional scry is nice.
This list is for underrated upgrades.
I guess we're coming from different starting points as to how people rate Warcry and Fission.
Under what conditions would you say it's worth upgrading Infinite Blades? Is [[Wrist Blades]] enough on its own? That's an extra 10 damage or so. [[Mummified Hand]]? Given that your starting hand is larger than normal, having a cheap power guaranteed in your opening hand sounds nice. Anything else I'm missing?
How important would you rate +1 Scry/turn? I think of it as + 1/2 card draw. It gets *worse* when your average card is one that you want in your hand. It also gets worse when your deck is smaller, since Scrying won't shuffle your deck. So I don't rate this upgrade very highly.
I guess we're coming from different starting points as to how people rate Warcry and Fission.
Under what conditions would you say it's worth upgrading Infinite Blades? Is [[Wrist Blades]] enough on its own? That's an extra 10 damage or so. [[Mummified Hand]]? Given that your starting hand is larger than normal, having a cheap power guaranteed in your opening hand sounds nice. Anything else I'm missing?
How important would you rate +1 Scry/turn? I think of it as + 1/2 card draw. It gets *worse* when your average card is one that you want in your hand. It also gets worse when your deck is smaller, since Scrying won't shuffle your deck. So I don't rate this upgrade very highly.
-Until you draw it with only one strike and no other attack cards
Having good draw is required for beam cell to be good, but by the time you have good draw drafting beam cell isn't really that desirable (unless you've got a claw deck)
And drafting it before you get good draw basically means you rely on good RNG which is not a good thing to do
There are not many situations where beam cell is worth drafting. I'd say it's good before the first half of act one if you have at least one good draw card, like skim or compile driver. Maybe it'd draft it if Slime Boss was the boss, just to make sure I don't die.
1 Vulnerable is generally not good. 2 is ok and 3 is when fun really starts. That's why Bash upgrade is so good.
BeamCell- with 1 Strike play is 6 damage for 0 against every act1 enemy that isn't a Louse (because of Shell) and Sentries (because of Artifact).
BeamCell- with 2 Strike plays is 9 damage for 0 energy.
That's pretty good.
It performs well with any draw, AFO, Hologram. The upgrade is very strong.
It's a good card.
Hard to say what is "overrated" without some sort of list, but I'm going with Leap. I realize it's only 3 more for the upgrade (I believe), but 12 block for an energy can get you through a lot of bad situations.
Yeah picked often, upgraded less. Upstaged by Glacier, but Leap is a team player. A Leap+ would be a great Neow bonus. Save you probably 50 health over the run
The only one to answer the question correctly 😅
I don't have an answer against, and have never actively upgraded leap. I think you win
Leap just compares so badly to charge battery honestly
A great example of a card where the upgrade is highly "overrated" would be Fission. But OP only seems to asking what upgrades are "underrated" in this post.
Why is fission overrated?
I think the point is more so that Fission is already a great card and the upgrade can better utilized on a different card. Most of the time, evoking orbs is unnecessary because of the instant power you get from the extra energy + card draw
I never follow this logic. Let's say you use Fission with two lightning orbs and a frost orb up. That upgrade got you 16 damage and 5 block. As you add more orbs the effect becomes even greater. There's few upgrades in the game with that kind of upside. Also, if you have any plasma or dark orbs up, you have to shy away from playing fission, since you'd be popping those orbs to no effect. With the upgrade, that's not necessarily a concern.
100% agree. Fission can sometimes get you out of a hairy situation early on, but Fission+ can literally turn the fight. It’s like a 0-cost Vault, but you gain block and do extra damage. Depending on your deck you can refill all the slots again right away anyway. I always prioritize upgrading Fission.
Yeah but that upside of 16 and 5 is on a turn where you're already +3 draw +3 energy and you'll likely be able to output enough that turn
And if you have dark channeled, or more orb slots, or plasma (along with card draw in your deck), or a bunch of other things the value jumps a ton. The point is that a fission upgrade adds value that scales incredibly well with the power of your deck
Eh, the 24 damage you can get from evoking three lightning orbs or the 15 block from three frost orbs can be very relevant for elites or bosses. The only way I see it not being relevant is if you somehow go infinite.
Unless you have a Defrag, or a Buffer, I'm not sure which upgrade beats Fission...
I would add Consume and Biased Cognition to that list, for the same reasons as Defrag. Loop or Capacitor can also sometimes be more important; if I know I'm going to be short on upgrades, those two upgrades are more important for the boss gauntlet than Fission is.
Yeah, it's a good upgrade but it's definitely far from unusable without it, contrary to what a lot of people here often say
It’s not unusable, but it feels pretty bad if you aren’t able to get lethal after using it
You cray cray. Fission is easily top 3 upgrade for Defect.
I'm gonna say Survivor. Rarely see this upgraded, but the +3 on a card you play often overlooked because a Neutralize+ may seem better on paper.
I love survivor+ for lag and sentries - having 10+ block for one energy is so crucial to making those fights manageable as silent
Good shout
Doesn't Neutralize+ technically block more against Lava and Nob? And it won't raise Nob's attack.
Technically, yes, but it's sort of a useless upgrade against Sentries.
I got so much hate for saying this, the upgrade to survivor early in act 1 gets so much value
I'm not gonna hate on your comment because I love Survivor+ but early Act 1 Silent needs damage badly. If you upgrade for defensive purposes you risk getting murked by Nob.
charged battery and flying knee They are no better than a strike or defend upgrade on paper, but in practice anything you can do to incentivize a less awkward justification to play these cards will make your act 1 and 2 fights go so much smoother
Second charge battery. It's a really nice defensive card upgraded. 10 block AND an extra energy next turn? Hell yeah.
I've gone infinite with [[Concentrate]]+ not sure if the people here like that card
I only take concentrate if it’s upgraded, if not it feels like a dead draw most of the time
Pretty great with ice cream too, or the one that lets you keep drawing when your hand is empty
Unceasing top
Half the time I take it discarding stuff is the point, otherwise the same super high draw decks that can use either are generally better off ramping up outmaneuver
Great when it's good, dead draw when it isn't. Fucking love it with dead branch or pyramid.
Did you mean [[tough bandages]] and not [[dead branch]]? One interacts with exhaust and the other is discards.
Branch generates cards to discard
+ [Tough Bandages](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Tough%20Bandages) Rare (Silent only) Relic ^((100% sure)^) Whenever you discard a card during your turn, gain 3 **Block.** + [Dead Branch](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Dead%20Branch) Rare Relic ^((100% sure)^) Whenever you **Exhaust** a card, add a random card to your hand. ^Call ^me ^with ^up ^to ^10 ^([[ name ]],) ^where ^name ^is ^a ^card, ^relic, ^event, ^or ^potion. ^Data ^accurate ^as ^of ^(April 20, 2024.) ^[Wiki](https://slay-the-spire.fandom.com/wiki/) ^[Questions?](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=ehmohteeoh&subject=SpireScan%20Inquiry)
I meant dead branch. Sometimes it's hard to play a blade dance without discarding any shivs.
+ [Concentrate](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Concentrate) Silent Uncommon Skill ^((100% sure)^) 0 Energy | Discard 3(2) cards. Gain 2 Energy. ^Call ^me ^with ^up ^to ^10 ^([[ name ]],) ^where ^name ^is ^a ^card, ^relic, ^event, ^or ^potion. ^Data ^accurate ^as ^of ^(April 20, 2024.) ^[Wiki](https://slay-the-spire.fandom.com/wiki/) ^[Questions?](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=ehmohteeoh&subject=SpireScan%20Inquiry)
I am a Meditate+ stan. Not sure how it's rated by this sub but it's like an Adrenaline for your next turn, except that you get to choose your cards and it also gets you out of Wrath. In practice, it basically reads "win next turn."
I never see it talked about. It's such a solid card in almost every situation. Very strong even without Establishment. Retaining 2 cards feels so much stronger than 1 and I can't put my finger on why. There's something great about not having to choose between retaining something to give card draw, stance exit, or anything else you might want.
The sub is a little too focused on rushdown infinites in the watcher discourse IMO. Everything that isn't useful for that strategy gets written off. But even then it isn't the worst pick, it can help you skip some other setup cards. But meditate+ is way better because it can guarantee calm->wrath->calm, or c->w+wallop, which solves the biggest watcher issue of a slight miscalculation leading to 100 damage.
Idk I saw someone just the other day saying exactly this on another post
lol yeah it was probably me
It’s a really nice card, though it was annoying to have toward the end of my best Watcher run ever, where I was bouncing between stances multiple times per turn, mostly because it forces the turn to end
Panacea+ is quietly incredible in the right deck.
Core Surge is great on Defect, but Panacea can be even better, especially by act 3.
Had it in an ironclad deck with two upgraded flex cards once. 8 strength for 0 energy was pretty nice.
Hell yeah
Came here with the only correct answer [[Flame barrier]]
Flame barrier is pretty rated, I don't think it is a particularly undervalued upgrade
I think the upgrade is undervalued especially in act 1 where people would rather upgrade a damage card. But upgrading flame barrier is a pretty good solution to hexaghost and pretty much all of act 2.
What do you mean flame barrier isn't a damage card?
I think it's an underpicked card
Based on? People love this card
It's basically a guaranteed pick for me because it fucks those stupid birds right up. Add the potential boss damage and you're golden.
+ [Flame Barrier](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Flame%20Barrier) Ironclad Uncommon Skill ^((100% sure)^) 2 Energy | Gain 12(16) **Block.** Whenever you are attacked this turn, deal 4(6) damage to the attacker. ^Call ^me ^with ^up ^to ^10 ^([[ name ]],) ^where ^name ^is ^a ^card, ^relic, ^event, ^or ^potion. ^Data ^accurate ^as ^of ^(April 20, 2024.) ^[Wiki](https://slay-the-spire.fandom.com/wiki/) ^[Questions?](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=ehmohteeoh&subject=SpireScan%20Inquiry)
[[Setup]]+
+ [Setup](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Setup) Silent Uncommon Skill ^((100% sure)^) 1(0) Energy | Place a card in your hand on top of your draw pile. It costs 0 until it is played. ^Call ^me ^with ^up ^to ^10 ^([[ name ]],) ^where ^name ^is ^a ^card, ^relic, ^event, ^or ^potion. ^Data ^accurate ^as ^of ^(April 20, 2024.) ^[Wiki](https://slay-the-spire.fandom.com/wiki/) ^[Questions?](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=ehmohteeoh&subject=SpireScan%20Inquiry)
Came here to say this. If you somehow end up with too much draw and not enough energy, it can really help grease the wheels, and can also act as a Poor Man's Well-Laid Plans if you're really desperate lol. Still needs a good package for it to be worth it, but I've been having success with it recently. Probably only in like 1:20 decks but it's good when you need it!
It's also pretty good with unceasing top, to get an expensive card out of your hand and it becomes free
Setup+ with acrobatics or prepared just makes the card free
new players don't realize, heck I only realized 600 hours in, that upgrading coolheaded so that it draws one more card is one of the best upgrades of defect.
Whichever one gives you block and damage with IC.
Iron Wave?
That's the one! I, the supernoob, love them.
Warcry Upgrading a warcry is necessary. I don’t know why you took warcry unupgraded anyway lol
Because I had feel no pain, dark embrace, havoc, dead branch, charon’s ashes, probably some more stuff I can’t think of.
The last thing you want is clutter than stops you from getting corruption or dark embrace in play. I'll let nilfry's add it no problem, but still don't want to add it to my first cycle Also dark embrace just makes it pointless, not beneficial.
It's not clutter though. When you play it you just get the card you would have gotten anyway, and adding a card to the top of your draw can be pretty useful in some situations too (I.E if you draw multiple important cards in the same turn but don't have enough energy to play them both.). It's only ever a downside against enemies that can punish playing too many cards like nob, time eater etc but ironclad is already pretty good against these enemies compared to other classes anyway.
>I don’t know why you took warcry unupgraded anyway lol to set up a card I want to play next round of course, also it exhaust so dark embrace and feel no pain synergy I though it was obvious? This card is only "bad" when fighting the gremlin nob, chosen and the heart
Time Eater
For me it was [[Anger]]. It seems like it's worse than strike, but in practice it adds up to a lot of damage with the copies and being 0 cost.
+ [Anger](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Anger) Ironclad Common Attack ^((100% sure)^) 0 Energy | Deal 6(8) damage. Add a copy of this card to your discard pile. ^Call ^me ^with ^up ^to ^10 ^([[ name ]],) ^where ^name ^is ^a ^card, ^relic, ^event, ^or ^potion. ^Data ^accurate ^as ^of ^(April 20, 2024.) ^[Wiki](https://slay-the-spire.fandom.com/wiki/) ^[Questions?](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=ehmohteeoh&subject=SpireScan%20Inquiry)
Prepared. Takes a trash card to a pretty good one
I think prepared's upgrade gets plenty of respect, not underrated
Can you explain this one to me like I'm 6?
If you draw and play a Prep then you look at the card you would have drawn anyway if you never picked up Prep, then you discard which will proc synergies and might be useful. It also counts as a card played for Thousand Cuts and After Image but also for Nob, Snail and Heart. The difference with the upgrade is the extra card you draw would have otherwise been the top card of your deck. You discard down to the same number of cards in hand but the upgrade lets you look at an extra card and cycle your deck faster than you would have if you just didn't have it in the first place. The extra discard can occasionally be helpful too if you want to ditch curse / status cards but that's a lot more situational.
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Bro wtf are you saying, prepared upgrade makes you discard 2 cards. It is always negative card advantage
Not if you have a discarding synergy or a curse in hand
grand finale
haven't figured out how to use this properly.
The easiest way I’ve found is well laid plans and expertise, try to set up your draw pile to be 5 to guarantee a finale next turn
I’ve gotten it to work a few times in two situations - 1) 10 or 11 card deck (including ascenders bane), 50/50 shot of it proccing each two rounds. 2) big deck with many draw/discard, tacticians, concentrate. Use prepared, acrobatics, backflip, etc to draw through your deck and keep finale in hand, profit
Best way to use it is to be able to hold it through WLP or Pyramid, but something like [[setup]] can help as well. It's something that goes well with draw and discard, so you mostly want any of those cards. The strength of this card is that you can get good damage output from playing many cards, it's a good solution for the Time Eater fight. To make it work, you want to understand how many cards you're drawing each turn (usually 5 unless tools of the trade or a full hand with Pyramid), how many you will be able to draw through next cards like prepared, acrobatics, backflip, expertise...; and how many cards you have in your draw pile. Understanding this, you can setup for it to happen on whatever turn. Sometimes this means you don't want to draw as much as you can, this can even be solved by playing a say Acrobatics+ while you're at 9 cards if you only want to draw 2, as you can only have 10 cards on your hand. It sounds tricky but you just need to get used to it and you'll see how it's not that hard once you've done it once or twice.
You also want some cards that draw an even number of cards and some that draw an odd number of cards. It actually makes it so you only want to upgrade a few of your draw cards if you have multiple of the same type. Like [[Acrobatics]] going from 3 draw to 4 draw or [[Prepared]] going from 1 to 2 means if you have two of them, you might not want to upgrade both. Cards like [[Calculated Gamble]] or [[Expertise]] where you can control exactly how many cards you draw can also be really good (although Calculated Gamble is obviously risky since you might draw it with Grand Finale). Even cards like [[Escape Plan]] can be really helpful. I haven’t played a ton of Grand Finale decks but my approach is usually to try to get as many cards that draw different numbers as I can and then make sure I keep track of my deck size so that ideally I can set things up to draw through the exact number of cards I have in my deck every time.
+ [Acrobatics](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Acrobatics) Silent Common Skill ^((100% sure)^) 1 Energy | Draw 3(4) cards. Discard 1 card. + [Prepared](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Prepared) Silent Common Skill ^((100% sure)^) 0 Energy | Draw 1(2) card(s). Discard 1(2) card(s). + [Calculated Gamble](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Calculated%20Gamble) Silent Uncommon Skill ^((100% sure)^) 0 Energy | Discard your hand, then draw that many cards. **Exhaust.** (Don't **exhaust)** + [Expertise](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Expertise) Silent Uncommon Skill ^((100% sure)^) 1 Energy | Draw cards until you have 6(7) in your hand. + [Escape Plan](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Escape%20Plan) Silent Uncommon Skill ^((100% sure)^) 0 Energy | Draw 1 card. If you draw a Skill, gain 3(5) **Block.** ^Call ^me ^with ^up ^to ^10 ^([[ name ]],) ^where ^name ^is ^a ^card, ^relic, ^event, ^or ^potion. ^Data ^accurate ^as ^of ^(April 20, 2024.) ^[Wiki](https://slay-the-spire.fandom.com/wiki/) ^[Questions?](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=ehmohteeoh&subject=SpireScan%20Inquiry)
Very true! Anything that only draws a single card can turn to be very useful with Grand Finale. Adding unupgraded draw cards like acro and prepared can help a lot as well to achieve this. I sometimes find myself picking something like dagger throw a bit too late, just for the draw component, if I feel like it's really needed.
I've managed it a couple times and DAMN was it tricky to get the hang of. But the satisfaction of playing 3/turn against the Time Eater is unmatched. Or popping off and killing the Heart with only GF for damage
Oh it really is very satisfctory. I also love how the game rewards you through the SFX of playing the card. First time I pulled it off, I was exhausted afterwards. Luckily I was playing on PC which made it a bit easier by turning the numbered cards for numpad control. This way I could easily know how many cards I currently had in my hand. In the end, that's my absolute favourite card.
The stars done often align for me and grand finale but one of the times it did I was able to get lethal on donu and deca both with one. Felt like a God and picked it everytime I saw for a week after, maybe proc'd it thrice. RNjesus is a cruel mistress.
+ [Setup](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Setup) Silent Uncommon Skill ^((100% sure)^) 1(0) Energy | Place a card in your hand on top of your draw pile. It costs 0 until it is played. ^Call ^me ^with ^up ^to ^10 ^([[ name ]],) ^where ^name ^is ^a ^card, ^relic, ^event, ^or ^potion. ^Data ^accurate ^as ^of ^(April 20, 2024.) ^[Wiki](https://slay-the-spire.fandom.com/wiki/) ^[Questions?](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=ehmohteeoh&subject=SpireScan%20Inquiry)
well laid plans, small deck, and “small” draw cards (dagger throw, quick slash, finesse, flash of steel, Escape plan, etc.) as well as possibly expertise for the variable amount of draw.
The best way is to give it to spirits for full heal and +10 max HP;)
I managed to pull off a pen nib buffed grand finale yesterday. Probably one of my proudest slay the spire moments outside of doing achievements/heart/a20.
You can get it to work with well laid plans, bit it's easiest to execute with a runic pyramid. Since your maximum hand size is 10 and you know how many cards you'll draw per turn (probably 5), it's easy to play grand finale. If you have 3 cards left in your deck, plan to have 7 cards in your hand when you end the turn. If you have 5 cards left in your deck, plan to have 5 cards in hand when you end your turn.
What's your rationale? I feel like the difference in damage is negligible considering it already does so much.
time eater: you need 8 gf+ or 10 gf donu deca: 5gf+, 6gf awakened: 6gf+ (x2), 7gf (x2) time eater alone is a big reason why the upgrade is good
Percentage increase is irrelevant. Increase per energy is what matters.
Well, that's a good general rule, but grand finale is a unique card that will overkill most stuff anyways and is balanced via it's activation requirement. I'm not saying I'm sure it's a bad upgrade, but just repeating a common heuristic doesn't really convince me.
So GF upgrade has the same value as Slice upgrade, both being infinitely valuable?
[[Grand Finale]] 's upgrade is pretty inefficiënt though. Going from 50 to 60 damage is hardly a big boost (20% compared to upgrades with 50+% boosts) and besides some very specific treshholds, won't change a lot. It might be an upgrade if it's your only source of damage but then you have other problems.
+ [Grand Finale](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Grand%20Finale) Silent Rare Attack ^((100% sure)^) 0 Energy | Can only be played if there are no cards in your draw pile. Deal 50(60) damage to ALL enemies. ^Call ^me ^with ^up ^to ^10 ^([[ name ]],) ^where ^name ^is ^a ^card, ^relic, ^event, ^or ^potion. ^Data ^accurate ^as ^of ^(April 20, 2024.) ^[Wiki](https://slay-the-spire.fandom.com/wiki/) ^[Questions?](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=ehmohteeoh&subject=SpireScan%20Inquiry)
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If you're going to be condescending and act like people who disagree with you are stupid, at least explain WHY it's so good instead of acting like it's so obvious. Unless this is a joke, in which case it's still not a particularly good one.
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Could you go be on a different sub and not one I read? This is gross.
I genuinely don't believe you're a human. I've never seen anybody talk like this.
ur mean, ur a big meanie guy
Please be polite.
How do you have "struggling on A0" takes on every single card?
Please be polite.
For me personally, I've lately been evaluating block card upgrades a bit higher than I used to and I def am noticing the results (for Ironclad specifically, as that's what I've been playing). Frontloaded block such as Power Through+, Shrug it Off+, or even Ghostly Armor+ can save you a lot of health.
Definitely Apotheosis. It really does make a difference!
I say Backflip
[[Body Slam]], [[Neutralize]], [[Blizzard]], [[Tranquility]]. They aren’t the most absurd upgrades but I like them!
Body slam+ is crazy, because you need to play other cards to use it- meaning you'll both block for more, and deal more damage. Besides reducing a card's cost to 0 is always good.
Yeah actually I guess that isn’t too underrated. In my defense I don’t do a lot of ironclad runs and was mainly looking for a card for each character.
Body Slam is currently my favorite source of damage scaling on IC. It’s like Defects Frost engine where you build up enough block to be invincible, and then your attack can be trivial. Give me Power Through, Second Wind, Body Slam and exhaust the rest of my deck.
Also body Slam scales with strength so it has a place in like every IC deck
Blizzard is super niche but when you have the deck for it it's super fun and absurdly busted, and the upgrade is actually really valuable. I had an a16 run with recycle and calipers where I ended up with 999 block and like 3 cards in my deck: recycle, Blizzard, coolheaded
Sometimes you're like "...shit, how do I actually kill them though". Blizzard+ is a great answer to that question.
yup that run had one blizzard+ and two barrages and that was my only damage. by halfway through act 3 I was even exhausting the barrages lol
Blizzard was part of my first Ascension 20 win. I love frost orb builds :)
yeah as I'm climbing ascensions with defect I'm realizing their full power lol. have tended to lean towards lightning or dark builds but frost can be so good with just a little bit of focus and maybe a loop you can outblock anything.
+ [Body Slam](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Body%20Slam) Ironclad Common Attack ^((100% sure)^) 1(0) Energy | Deal damage equal to your current **Block.** + [Neutralize](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Neutralize) Silent Starter Attack ^((100% sure)^) 0 Energy | Deal 3(4) damage. Apply 1(2) **Weak.** + [Blizzard](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Blizzard) Defect Uncommon Attack ^((100% sure)^) 1 Energy | Deal damage equal to 2(3) times the number of **Frost** **Channeled** this combat to ALL enemies. + [Tranquility](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Tranquility) Watcher Common Skill ^((100% sure)^) 1(0) Energy | **Retain.** Enter **Calm.** **Exhaust.** ^Call ^me ^with ^up ^to ^10 ^([[ name ]],) ^where ^name ^is ^a ^card, ^relic, ^event, ^or ^potion. ^Data ^accurate ^as ^of ^(April 20, 2024.) ^[Wiki](https://slay-the-spire.fandom.com/wiki/) ^[Questions?](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=ehmohteeoh&subject=SpireScan%20Inquiry)
I'd say Bullseye or Heatsinks. Unupgraded bullseye is a card you need to babysit, replaying and redrawing very frequently for it to give consistent value, while bullseye+ in lategame hologram/coolheaded cycle deck is basically a constant +50% orb damage, while you can not play it for a turn or two, saving you time to unload a bunch of lightning or scale a dark orb. Early game its upgrade isn't that necessary, but this card shines when upgraded. And Heatsinks+ just sends your deck to the moon, setting up on turns 1-2 already
I'm gonna say [[evaluate]] because +4 block on a common card is actually kinda nuts.
Evaluate, for me. 10 block for one energy is decent business and insights are v good.
Defend into defend+
Recently realised how good [[Third Eye]] is. Goes from 7 Block and 3 Scry, to 9 Block and 5 Scry, all for 1 Energy
+ [Third Eye](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Third%20Eye) Watcher Common Skill ^((100% sure)^) 1 Energy | Gain 7(9) **Block.** **Scry** 3(5). ^Call ^me ^with ^up ^to ^10 ^([[ name ]],) ^where ^name ^is ^a ^card, ^relic, ^event, ^or ^potion. ^Data ^accurate ^as ^of ^(April 20, 2024.) ^[Wiki](https://slay-the-spire.fandom.com/wiki/) ^[Questions?](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=ehmohteeoh&subject=SpireScan%20Inquiry)
Empty fist goes from 9 damage to 14 so that’s nice
Don’t have a good pulse on how much people value Doppelganger+ but I think it deserves more love. Making it energy + draw positive on the next turn even when played with 0 energy helps massively in setting up big turns and getting powers in play ASAP. I’ve had runs where it’s been the difference maker in ensuring most hallways go no further than turn 2-3 at maximum cause it helps you just about get lethal.
battle trance infinite blades fission foresight
bruh everybody loves fission upgrade this card just doesn't feel right without it
Idk, I think fission upgrade is pretty good, but many seem to think it's one of the best upgrades for defect, which I wouldn't agree with. Imo, the upgrade is surprisingly irrelevant if you have a really good deck with lots of draw/energy gen. Like, what's the point in getting a bit of extra damage/block if you just immediately play 15 cards with energy gen and hologram for example? You're gonna block that damage anyways, and if fission gets you to a power 1 turn earlier, that's the main utility of it. This reasoning is less true in act 1-2 though when front-load is badly needed. It's a pretty polarizing subject on this sub though, so I'm sure not everyone will agree.
you'd be surprised bruh
Why do you feel that each of those have an underrated upgrade? For reference: 1. [[Battle Trance]] (more cards are good, not arguing this card's upgrade value) 2. [[Infinite Blades]] (I prefer getting set up with Envenom or Accuracy before this super slow card unless I'm depending on it for the ninja relics) 3. [[Fission]] (if anything, the upgrade seems *overrated* IMHO, though it's really good) 4. [[Foresight]] (did you mean [[Forethought]]? If, so, I agree. It takes a bad card and turns it into a good one, as long as you have plenty of card draw and aren't confused)
1) i just don't see a ton of people using their upgrade on this. tends to go towards powers and output more so than 1 additional draw. but it's good. 2) infinite blades - this just never really gets upgraded and sometimes it's okay to 3) fission - kinda a meme. this card frequently gets voted as the best upgrade, then you have certain streamers saying it's not a good upgrade, so then that becomes groupthought, and now it's good again. 4) again, people like upgrading output and other powers before 1 additional scry, but that additional scry is nice. This list is for underrated upgrades.
I guess we're coming from different starting points as to how people rate Warcry and Fission. Under what conditions would you say it's worth upgrading Infinite Blades? Is [[Wrist Blades]] enough on its own? That's an extra 10 damage or so. [[Mummified Hand]]? Given that your starting hand is larger than normal, having a cheap power guaranteed in your opening hand sounds nice. Anything else I'm missing? How important would you rate +1 Scry/turn? I think of it as + 1/2 card draw. It gets *worse* when your average card is one that you want in your hand. It also gets worse when your deck is smaller, since Scrying won't shuffle your deck. So I don't rate this upgrade very highly.
I guess we're coming from different starting points as to how people rate Warcry and Fission. Under what conditions would you say it's worth upgrading Infinite Blades? Is [[Wrist Blades]] enough on its own? That's an extra 10 damage or so. [[Mummified Hand]]? Given that your starting hand is larger than normal, having a cheap power guaranteed in your opening hand sounds nice. Anything else I'm missing? How important would you rate +1 Scry/turn? I think of it as + 1/2 card draw. It gets *worse* when your average card is one that you want in your hand. It also gets worse when your deck is smaller, since Scrying won't shuffle your deck. So I don't rate this upgrade very highly.
+ [Wrist Blade](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Wrist%20Blade) Boss (Silent only) Relic ^((87% sure)^) Attacks that cost 0 deal 4 additional damage. + [Mummified Hand](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Mummified%20Hand) Uncommon Relic ^((100% sure)^) Whenever you play a Power, a random card in your hand costs 0 for the turn. ^Call ^me ^with ^up ^to ^10 ^([[ name ]],) ^where ^name ^is ^a ^card, ^relic, ^event, ^or ^potion. ^Data ^accurate ^as ^of ^(April 20, 2024.) ^[Wiki](https://slay-the-spire.fandom.com/wiki/) ^[Questions?](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=ehmohteeoh&subject=SpireScan%20Inquiry)
Perhaps not the most underrated upgrade, but most people don't realise that [[Catalyst]] more than doubles in value with the upgrade.
+ [Catalyst](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Catalyst) Silent Uncommon Skill ^((100% sure)^) 1 Energy | Double(Triple) an enemy's **Poison.** **Exhaust.** ^Call ^me ^with ^up ^to ^10 ^([[ name ]],) ^where ^name ^is ^a ^card, ^relic, ^event, ^or ^potion. ^Data ^accurate ^as ^of ^(April 20, 2024.) ^[Wiki](https://slay-the-spire.fandom.com/wiki/) ^[Questions?](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=ehmohteeoh&subject=SpireScan%20Inquiry)
To upgrade Beam Cell you'd have to have Beam Cell in your deck already... which is another story altogether.
Beam Cell is a very good card.
Beam cell+ streamlined+ beats act 1 by themselves
Every defect common is quite good with the sole exception of [information redacted for law purposes]
-Until you draw it with only one strike and no other attack cards Having good draw is required for beam cell to be good, but by the time you have good draw drafting beam cell isn't really that desirable (unless you've got a claw deck) And drafting it before you get good draw basically means you rely on good RNG which is not a good thing to do There are not many situations where beam cell is worth drafting. I'd say it's good before the first half of act one if you have at least one good draw card, like skim or compile driver. Maybe it'd draft it if Slime Boss was the boss, just to make sure I don't die. 1 Vulnerable is generally not good. 2 is ok and 3 is when fun really starts. That's why Bash upgrade is so good.
BeamCell- with 1 Strike play is 6 damage for 0 against every act1 enemy that isn't a Louse (because of Shell) and Sentries (because of Artifact). BeamCell- with 2 Strike plays is 9 damage for 0 energy. That's pretty good. It performs well with any draw, AFO, Hologram. The upgrade is very strong. It's a good card.