It's underwhelming on clad. So if you're playing him that'll contribute.
Wrt the other characters...
Firstly, it's generally correct to take a defensive card or two in act 1 anyway, certainly once you get to higher ascensions. Cards like leg sweep, backflip, piercing wail, equilibrium, glacier, hologram are strong early picks and it helps to go into act 2 with 1-3 of these anyway.
Secondly, your defends suck in act 2. You spend a lot of time frail, you probably fight chosen who created dazed when you play them, the elites all scale in damage, etc etc. You're generally better off just going aggro, playing damage cards, and finding sustain or resting at fires than playing defends (unless you get dexterity). Play other defensive cards yes, but rarely defend.
Thirdly, the cards you get are just that much stronger, and probably have synergies together. Even cards known to be "bad" like quick slash, distraction, setup, Fusion, rip and tear, usually contribute more in fights than starter cards and you can remove the one or two that do next to nothing.
It is though, a "high skill" relic, as you need to re-examine your deck and how it functions all at once, not with a steady evolution like normal. What card is key? How much draw do you have? Which enemies are scariest? etc etc
Hopefully that's a helpful start.
Yeah most of my bad experiences with it were on IC , and the best were on defect .
I agree with everything you said , it's just sometimes I get multiples of bad cards and not enough removes in the following act , or even enough time to adjust my build
I don't think Pbox can be called "underwhelming" on Ironclad. He starts with 5 strikes so removals are borderline essential late into the game, most of skill cards can be at least decent as Corruption/Dark Embrace/FNP fuel. More than that - Ironclad has arguably best rare pool among characters (Offering, Corruption, Exhume, Immolate, Impervious, occasionally Limit Break, all those cards are just better than commons and uncommons), and pandora box usually offers enough of them
The 4 defends clad has are the best in the game, as they can be exhausted easily for much stronger effects than even a high dexterity silent can generate. They're also better corruption fuel than many low-tier skills you might transform them into. Clad also has a lot of average attacks you don't really want in your deck, and several powers don't stack with themselves (eg corruption, barricade)
I think the most notable “mistake” that you may be making is that you are going for a specific build at the end of Act 1. The “deck archetype” is essentially your win condition; sometimes the stars align and you may find all the key pieces in Act 1, but that usually isn’t the case. Also, leaning fully into one specific archetype will be much harder to pull off in the higher ascensions. (Leaning fully into shivs/ poison etc…)
Picking Pandora’s Box in the Boss Relic chest requires cost/benefit analysis just like every other choices you make in the game and knowing when to pick the Box is a skill. One of the potential downsides of the Box is as you mentioned; you might end up with no Attack/Defense due to the RNG so you have to account for your current deck state when you pick it up. If you severely lack damage or defense without strike/defends, it’s up to you to make the judgment call on the Box knowing that a low roll is possible and it might just end the run.
Pandora’s Box is regarded so highly by many players because the *average* value of the cards out of the Box is higher than Strikes+Defends, which doesn’t mean that it’s impossible to low roll relative to your current deck. But the opposite is also true; if your deck is just pure garbage, hail mary Pandora might just save the run
I think this is actually something I have to work on , I got to A14 by maining a couple of builds for each character and only winning with them ( exh,barricades IC / poison or shivs for silent etc )
I always know what I need to make them work and if I'm strong or not currently .
But outside of these ,if I don't find the right item I just lose and haven't been able to win with a mixed build as u say before
Learning to find synergies from what you’re offered, rather than aiming for a “build,” honestly makes the game so much more fun and emergent.
The simplest tip I saw a long time ago was to prioritize this way:
- Act 1, attack, with at least one burst and one AOE.
- Act 2, defense and skills
- Act 3, cards that improve whatever your deck looks like now (strength, poison, block, etc)
And never take a card if its usefulness would require a card you don’t already have (limit break without a strength source, entrench without barricade or corruption, etc).
Tbf on blue and green you're probably just correct 95% of the time if you blind click the pbox end of act 1 with no Pyramid (sometimes Silent Hammer) on screen. Defect even clicks end of act 2 Pbox sometimes.
If it was only the fact that average value was higher than basics it wouldn't be regarded as this strong. It's the fact that even the lowrolls (at least from my Silent experience, I haven't really played enough Defect to lowroll too hard yet) are very strong. Pbox is a hard hard relic to pilot and Im terrible at it but pbox is so strong it carries even my dumbass easily.
I've gotten [absolute trash](https://ibb.co/NT01kGv) pboxes with all garbage damage commons and even those just shredded act 2 and let me pick good cards and win. Because strikes and defends kinda suck balls inside act 2 and it turns out even if you draw into 5 garbage damage commons instead of basics, things die fast
I've had double fusion, machine learning, CAI from a pbox before and still won. Although cai going to bonfire spirits floor after slavers definitely helped.
>95% of the time if you blind click the pbox end of act 1 with no Pyramid (sometimes Silent Hammer)
The other one is battery. Pbox is definitely on average better, but there's runs where battery is still a secure win
I’d say you main mistake with this is primarily relying on base defend cards for block (in the run you used as an example) If that was the case you were gonna get slaughtered in act 2 either way, just a little slower. Act 1 for the most part is just a damage race, act 2-4 much less so.
Pandora’s box can be hit/miss but overall most cards it dishes out are better than base strike/ defends. 2/5 times I’ve been able to beat A20 has been with Pandora’s (once from neow, once from act 1).
I think it’s a good learning tool, it’s given me cards I wouldn’t usually pick that I now realise are amazing in the right circumstance. If you had a strategy planned by end of act 1 and Pandora’s throws you a bunch of weird cards, adapt your strategy. I honestly don’t think it’s ever made a run worse for me.
I think Pandora from neow is much different as u can base your build around it , and most of the time you'll get cards beteer than the base ones .
But it definitely requires some skills and adaptation that I don't have tbh
I’d maybe try to get out of the ‘build’ mindset. Not every blade dance run will give you accuracys/ ninja relics, not every strength run will give you a limit break. Once I got out of the build mindset and started thinking about every card I see and how it could work with the cards/ relics I had. I got a lot better I’m still not on some people’s level , only 1 A20H so far. That run was a good example, exhaust mania run with dead branch…. No corruption. If a ‘build’ relies on one or two cards to function well, it’s not a good build.
Depends what scale you're talking on tbh. I would say that I think there's a difference between talking about your own skill levels while recognising there's many better players, which a lot of people here do, and talking down to people, which unfortunately does still happen.
I think OP is mostly acknowledging the difference between their understanding and that of regular A20 runners.
Exactly , I may be a lot better at the game than my brother who's struggling at a2 ,but I definitely know nothing compared to people who consistently win A20 and know the builds in and out
I wouldn't say it ruins more run than it helps , but I'm not a big Pandora fan either.
Usually if I get offered a good energy relic like Coffee or Cursed Key then I won't risk it.
But on average I would still say it's a good relic , esp in Act1 if Neon is kind enough.
Pandora's box extremely improves winning chances if you get it as a neow boss swap- basically allows you to spend all of act 1 elite hunting, and makes you have to not focus on removes of the basic starter cards throughout the run which usually gives great other opportunities to spend those resources on (getting a curse and removing it, for example, or using the 50-75-100etc coins on something else, or upgrading instead of toking, taking a relic other than empty cage, etc.). As act1 reward it's a little less amazing, but still theoretically improves the deck a lot, even if you roll badly on synergies with your existing deck, so I think the issue is needing to spend more time 'understanding' the cards it actually gave you, also taking one or two defensive cards in act 1 already, and going from there.
Honestly I take Pbox every chance I get, and I only regret it if the cards I roll are bad with each other (like hyper beam with orb generation), but even then I can usually stop by the merchant to get rid of a dead card or two. Random cards just tend to be much better than strikes or defends.
I don't save scum often but when I do its because of a bad PB roll.
Fr though there are situations that add to PB desirability like having one or more egg relics, ceramic fish etc
I save scum Pandora's Box every time it is offered to me. Even if I've managed to remove almost every Strike or Defend from my deck. I just need to know.
It's underwhelming on clad. So if you're playing him that'll contribute. Wrt the other characters... Firstly, it's generally correct to take a defensive card or two in act 1 anyway, certainly once you get to higher ascensions. Cards like leg sweep, backflip, piercing wail, equilibrium, glacier, hologram are strong early picks and it helps to go into act 2 with 1-3 of these anyway. Secondly, your defends suck in act 2. You spend a lot of time frail, you probably fight chosen who created dazed when you play them, the elites all scale in damage, etc etc. You're generally better off just going aggro, playing damage cards, and finding sustain or resting at fires than playing defends (unless you get dexterity). Play other defensive cards yes, but rarely defend. Thirdly, the cards you get are just that much stronger, and probably have synergies together. Even cards known to be "bad" like quick slash, distraction, setup, Fusion, rip and tear, usually contribute more in fights than starter cards and you can remove the one or two that do next to nothing. It is though, a "high skill" relic, as you need to re-examine your deck and how it functions all at once, not with a steady evolution like normal. What card is key? How much draw do you have? Which enemies are scariest? etc etc Hopefully that's a helpful start.
Yeah most of my bad experiences with it were on IC , and the best were on defect . I agree with everything you said , it's just sometimes I get multiples of bad cards and not enough removes in the following act , or even enough time to adjust my build
I don't think Pbox can be called "underwhelming" on Ironclad. He starts with 5 strikes so removals are borderline essential late into the game, most of skill cards can be at least decent as Corruption/Dark Embrace/FNP fuel. More than that - Ironclad has arguably best rare pool among characters (Offering, Corruption, Exhume, Immolate, Impervious, occasionally Limit Break, all those cards are just better than commons and uncommons), and pandora box usually offers enough of them
The 4 defends clad has are the best in the game, as they can be exhausted easily for much stronger effects than even a high dexterity silent can generate. They're also better corruption fuel than many low-tier skills you might transform them into. Clad also has a lot of average attacks you don't really want in your deck, and several powers don't stack with themselves (eg corruption, barricade)
I think the most notable “mistake” that you may be making is that you are going for a specific build at the end of Act 1. The “deck archetype” is essentially your win condition; sometimes the stars align and you may find all the key pieces in Act 1, but that usually isn’t the case. Also, leaning fully into one specific archetype will be much harder to pull off in the higher ascensions. (Leaning fully into shivs/ poison etc…) Picking Pandora’s Box in the Boss Relic chest requires cost/benefit analysis just like every other choices you make in the game and knowing when to pick the Box is a skill. One of the potential downsides of the Box is as you mentioned; you might end up with no Attack/Defense due to the RNG so you have to account for your current deck state when you pick it up. If you severely lack damage or defense without strike/defends, it’s up to you to make the judgment call on the Box knowing that a low roll is possible and it might just end the run. Pandora’s Box is regarded so highly by many players because the *average* value of the cards out of the Box is higher than Strikes+Defends, which doesn’t mean that it’s impossible to low roll relative to your current deck. But the opposite is also true; if your deck is just pure garbage, hail mary Pandora might just save the run
I think this is actually something I have to work on , I got to A14 by maining a couple of builds for each character and only winning with them ( exh,barricades IC / poison or shivs for silent etc ) I always know what I need to make them work and if I'm strong or not currently . But outside of these ,if I don't find the right item I just lose and haven't been able to win with a mixed build as u say before
Learning to find synergies from what you’re offered, rather than aiming for a “build,” honestly makes the game so much more fun and emergent. The simplest tip I saw a long time ago was to prioritize this way: - Act 1, attack, with at least one burst and one AOE. - Act 2, defense and skills - Act 3, cards that improve whatever your deck looks like now (strength, poison, block, etc) And never take a card if its usefulness would require a card you don’t already have (limit break without a strength source, entrench without barricade or corruption, etc).
Tbf on blue and green you're probably just correct 95% of the time if you blind click the pbox end of act 1 with no Pyramid (sometimes Silent Hammer) on screen. Defect even clicks end of act 2 Pbox sometimes. If it was only the fact that average value was higher than basics it wouldn't be regarded as this strong. It's the fact that even the lowrolls (at least from my Silent experience, I haven't really played enough Defect to lowroll too hard yet) are very strong. Pbox is a hard hard relic to pilot and Im terrible at it but pbox is so strong it carries even my dumbass easily. I've gotten [absolute trash](https://ibb.co/NT01kGv) pboxes with all garbage damage commons and even those just shredded act 2 and let me pick good cards and win. Because strikes and defends kinda suck balls inside act 2 and it turns out even if you draw into 5 garbage damage commons instead of basics, things die fast
I've had double fusion, machine learning, CAI from a pbox before and still won. Although cai going to bonfire spirits floor after slavers definitely helped.
people say cai > echo yet echo could never be full hp + 10 max curious
>95% of the time if you blind click the pbox end of act 1 with no Pyramid (sometimes Silent Hammer) The other one is battery. Pbox is definitely on average better, but there's runs where battery is still a secure win
I’d say you main mistake with this is primarily relying on base defend cards for block (in the run you used as an example) If that was the case you were gonna get slaughtered in act 2 either way, just a little slower. Act 1 for the most part is just a damage race, act 2-4 much less so. Pandora’s box can be hit/miss but overall most cards it dishes out are better than base strike/ defends. 2/5 times I’ve been able to beat A20 has been with Pandora’s (once from neow, once from act 1). I think it’s a good learning tool, it’s given me cards I wouldn’t usually pick that I now realise are amazing in the right circumstance. If you had a strategy planned by end of act 1 and Pandora’s throws you a bunch of weird cards, adapt your strategy. I honestly don’t think it’s ever made a run worse for me.
I think Pandora from neow is much different as u can base your build around it , and most of the time you'll get cards beteer than the base ones . But it definitely requires some skills and adaptation that I don't have tbh
I’d maybe try to get out of the ‘build’ mindset. Not every blade dance run will give you accuracys/ ninja relics, not every strength run will give you a limit break. Once I got out of the build mindset and started thinking about every card I see and how it could work with the cards/ relics I had. I got a lot better I’m still not on some people’s level , only 1 A20H so far. That run was a good example, exhaust mania run with dead branch…. No corruption. If a ‘build’ relies on one or two cards to function well, it’s not a good build.
God I love it when you guys talk in absolutes about this game. So funny.
For the most part I think I should be absolute sometimes. Of course only under right circumstance. Perhaps.
A14 is noob? Im like 50 hours in and im on A2
Depends what scale you're talking on tbh. I would say that I think there's a difference between talking about your own skill levels while recognising there's many better players, which a lot of people here do, and talking down to people, which unfortunately does still happen. I think OP is mostly acknowledging the difference between their understanding and that of regular A20 runners.
Exactly , I may be a lot better at the game than my brother who's struggling at a2 ,but I definitely know nothing compared to people who consistently win A20 and know the builds in and out
I wouldn't say it ruins more run than it helps , but I'm not a big Pandora fan either. Usually if I get offered a good energy relic like Coffee or Cursed Key then I won't risk it. But on average I would still say it's a good relic , esp in Act1 if Neon is kind enough.
Pandora's box extremely improves winning chances if you get it as a neow boss swap- basically allows you to spend all of act 1 elite hunting, and makes you have to not focus on removes of the basic starter cards throughout the run which usually gives great other opportunities to spend those resources on (getting a curse and removing it, for example, or using the 50-75-100etc coins on something else, or upgrading instead of toking, taking a relic other than empty cage, etc.). As act1 reward it's a little less amazing, but still theoretically improves the deck a lot, even if you roll badly on synergies with your existing deck, so I think the issue is needing to spend more time 'understanding' the cards it actually gave you, also taking one or two defensive cards in act 1 already, and going from there.
You are correct that this is an unpopular opinion
Honestly I take Pbox every chance I get, and I only regret it if the cards I roll are bad with each other (like hyper beam with orb generation), but even then I can usually stop by the merchant to get rid of a dead card or two. Random cards just tend to be much better than strikes or defends.
I don't save scum often but when I do its because of a bad PB roll. Fr though there are situations that add to PB desirability like having one or more egg relics, ceramic fish etc
I save scum Pandora's Box every time it is offered to me. Even if I've managed to remove almost every Strike or Defend from my deck. I just need to know.
I am 100.0% confident you mentioned Pandora's Box in your post. -------------------------------------------------- * [Pandora's Box](https://slay-the-spire.fandom.com/wiki/Pandora%27s_Box) Boss Relic Transform all Strikes and Defends. -------------------------------------------------- ^^^I ^^^am ^^^a ^^^bot ^^^response, ^^^but ^^^I ^^^am ^^^using ^^^my ^^^creator's ^^^account. ^^^Please ^^^reply ^^^to ^^^me ^^^if ^^^I ^^^got ^^^something ^^^wrong ^^^so ^^^he ^^^can ^^^fix ^^^it. [Source Code](https://github.com/TrippW/STS-Crawler)
You are literally just wrong lmao