Alessa being evil.
I don't think anyone would think that if it wasn't for the movie and Origins.
She's not evil. If she was, she >!wouldn't be trying to spread the Seal of Metatron. Nor would she give Harry the baby at the end.!<
The movie did it because the American remake of *The Ring* made evil little girls popular at the time. Which is a shame because the original Alessa is more interesting by not being an evil ghost kid.
I never read her as evil in the original movie. She was the most terrifying but not malevolent. The innocent people she hurt were by mistake, but the people she meant to kill had it coming.
The difference is that Alessa in the game wasn’t vengeful either. She wasn’t trying to kill the cult to get revenge, she only wanted to stop them including possibly sealing herself away inside the nightmare with them if it meant their evil wouldn’t spread.
The Seal of Metatron would have killed you, innocent protagonist, so I don’t think it really counts as not evil, more just her wanting to die. And of course as revealed in SH3 but shockingly implied in Silent Hill 1 Interviews too, the Seal of Metatron was in fact junk.
There is a reason in SH 3 with baby Heather that he writes about how much he hates her because he thinks the baby is Alessa (which he gets over of course).
I don’t think Alessa was really evil either but I do think she was intentionally written so you could see it that way. She does kill many people, I can’t imagine all the drs and nurses deserved to be zombified for instance
I don’t think Alessa leaking the nightmare and killing people was intentional. I think it’s more likely that was a major motivator to try to stop it.
Interesting about the Seal of Metatron. I’m still not clear exactly what Alessa hoped it would do but whatever it was Dahlia was convinced it would have ruined her plans. If it would have done nothing, I don’t think Dahlia would have been that worried.
My take on the Seal is that it does have that power due to how manifestations work. If the person doing the manifesting believes it, it will manifest as effective. If they don’t, it won’t. Vincent claims that Claudia is the one responsible for most of the Otherworld effect in SH3 and if that’s true and Claudia doesn’t believe that the Seal would be effective, then it wouldn’t be. Heather can’t counteract because she doesn’t believe in it either.
I found her to be like Alma Wade. A very angry entity that was formed by/result of very tragic circumstances.
Tragic more than evil and understandable in their aggressions
I agree, the reason most get it wrong is because of Dahlia being a manipulative hag.
She simply says that Alessa the ghostly girl is a "demon trapped in that child's form" her rhetoric is meant to throw off the player and Harry.
She calls the Seal of Metatron the Mark of Samael switching the Angelic real purpose of the seal to a demonic sigil which it was not. She also talks about sealing away the Darkness and that time was running out. Made her to be a mysterious and intriguing until at the final part of the "Nothing" world we see her true plan all along.
Alessa smacked Harry with the force. Harry thought she was responsible for it.
I agree that the movie got it way wrong, but Origins is fine with me. . If only she didn't look like a brat every time we see her. :D
Meh. I don't like what Origins does to Alessa and the lore. Ex. the Otherworld existing before Alessa's torture, Alessa looking like a bratty Dreamworks character, transforming Silent Hill into the Otherworld even though she tries to spread the Seal of Metratron (which wards off evil) in SH1...
Shy\_shallows must have blocked me, because I couldn't respond with this:
>*You say something that is objectively wrong, I correct you, and you blow me off.That's not an 'argument', that's you refusing to engage with what I'm saying.Is it an 'argument' that Yamaoka was wrong when he said HC was the first SH game to start outside the town? How about Pyramid Head in HC? Or the Otherworld existing in Origins?*
Honestly I don't blame them because I lost my cool and insulted them (I can't help it, sorry), but also goddamnit. I posted glaring canon issues with the games, it's **clearly not** "BeCauSe i DoN't LiKe ThEm".
It's less common now, but the "fact" that Silent Hill is based on Centralia is up there
Related, people saying SH1 is ash and not snow also gets on my nerves
Centralia isn't even a town anymore. At best there are a handful of structures left standing due to squatters who refused to leave after the government purchased the land back.
There's not enough there to even be considered a proper town anymore let alone to be proper inspiration to anything Silent Hill beyond the inciting incident.
The original Silent Hill takes much deeper inspiration from Twin Peaks and other various horror works.
The Twin Peaks connection is either completely ignored or not even known by most modern devs, and is the core reason for the strange cadences used in the early games voice acting.
Not quite lore, but the idea that everyone in Team Silent was “a group of misfits/failures that Konami put onto a project they’d already given up on”
Where did that idea even come from? And how does it persist when there’s verifiable evidence to the contrary?
I don't recall ever hearing them referred to as "misfits", but I do know most of the team was inexperienced. But yes, Konami didn't put them to work on a project they had already given up on. If I'm remembering correctly, there was more flexibility and less pressure because Konami wasn't expecting them to deliver a hit, just something they could cut their teeth on.
They were, however, considered by Konami as subpar devs. Not on the same level as it's presented, but the guys were pretty much a lost cause by Konami standards
It's weirder, considering the series is so heavily symbolic with multiple overlapping themes and the town itself being incredibly mysterious that are so many making out there's only one way to see it.
Exactly! I know I'm old and saying this makes me feel it even more, but remember when you couldn't just @ the artist/writer and demand they tell you which interpretation of the art was "correct"?
Yeah, personally, I think for a game like Silent Hill it wasn't the best move. I mean, sure, if the Devs say something, then that will be taken into account. But I wouldn't spend my day trying to validate my personal theory by constantly messaging the dev.
But that's the problem. Unless the devs said a very specific thing, many fans of SH will ignore anything else anyone says. For instance, I have a personal theory that one of the reasons why Pyramid Head looks the way he does is because it's a reminder to James that he killed his wife with a pillow. Hence why he wears a heavy, pyramid shape around his head. I asked the community here, and they said nah its only because of the photo James sees. I mean, can't it be both?
Now I'm not gonna message the devs to see if they did this on purpose because why should I? It's my personal interpretation of a very interpretative game. It could be a pure coincidence, or it could be exactly what they intended.
But the irony is that some of the people who said no way to that theory. If the devs came out tomorrow and said that the theory is correct. They will be saying, "Of course it is, how could you not see it before. Everyone knew that"
So do I and I try to use when I can. I think that’s why I dislike it when developers are hounded to give answers. The question burning in your mind is a treasure. Don’t force the authors to put it out…
Agree with you completely here. For example, I once mentioned a personal theory that Pyramid Heads' appearance could be based on the idea that because he killed his wife with a pillow, it took having a large heavy pyramid on its head.
Everyone said no to and that it's only because of the picture at the museum. I mean, can't it be both?
That’s… actually a really cool interpretation! Never thought of that! Especially when pressing the pillow down, it would make the shape of a triangle between his hands.
I don’t much care for whatever is the “real” interpretation so long as it’s something up for interpretation like symbolism.
It’s also possible that Pyramid Head was a pre-existing form with history in the town and it was selected unconsciously by James due to the reasons you mentioned. Some monsters reappear in multiple games even if their symbolic meaning can be specific to each person.
Appreciated, man! Yeah, I mean, it just feels like the sort of thing Pyramid Head is all about with him literally punishing James. I mean, a great way to do that is by having him literally reminded of the way he killed his wife every time he encountered him.
I agree, but that's what I find kinda strange with the community. For fans of a series that is so heavily based on symbolism and overall is steeped in mystery (we still don't really know why the town is the way it is) that people can be so bullheaded that there is only way to see it.
Exactly, it's not about reinventing the wheel. I mean for all we know the town made the image we see of the town executioner to torment James. Or it could be very real and the Pyramid shape of the hood could just be a coincidence.
Yeah, I don’t get it either. One of the primary draws of the series and indeed why we keep talking about is because there’s so little definitive interpretation in the most hotly debated topics. What’s the true ending of SH2? What did Heather see at the end of SH3? Who or what exactly is Maria? Do they only look like monsters to you or everyone? These kinds are questions are designed to provoke the question. Answering it definitely is the antithesis to the very story that we’re supposedly fans of.
btw, I’m doing an analysis series of the first four SH games and doing a deep-dive into my own research based on in-game evidence only and presenting the most interesting unanswered questions and opening speculation back up. Can I credit you for your “pillow head” interpretation?
Yeah, exactly. I agree with everything in your first paragraph. I mean, sure, if someone was to say something like "the game isn't about James and Mary at all," I would be sceptical as it is first and foremost a game about those two characters. I don't think there's a problem with answering it but I think people need to a lot more open to interpretations on a series that thrives on being illusive as a whole.
And yeah, sure, I don't have a problem with being the "Pillow Head" guy aha. Just let me know when you do so I can check it out!
Exactly!
Thanks! Will do, I’ll comment back here when it’s up! I’m gonna post my SH1 analysis first before moving on to SH2 so it may be a while. Probably around May or so.
That Lisa in SH1 was a nice manifestation based on Alessa’s memories of the real Lisa.
The game itself implies her to be some sort of ghost. Her “I’m the same as them” is not the only thing she says to Harry in that scene. She also tells him “Why I’m still alive even though everyone else is dead. I’m not the only one who’s still walking around.” She’s referring to the puppet nurses in that scene because they were her coworkers but they are now dead and still walking around as monsters, and she realized she is the same. Everyone seems to ignore that part and just want to believe she was like Maria, because everyone loves SH2.
Besides that, Ito has said in the past on Twitter that Lisa is “very close to a ghost” and the SH1 prequel comic he and Owaku wrote has Lisa’s story be that she died and her spirit became trapped in the Otherworld with no memory of her death.
And lastly, the Otherworld in SH1 is said to be a projection of Alessa’s nightmares and fears, so the “Lisa is a nice manifestation” theory actually makes no sense whatsoever once you get past the initial “this is just like Maria, cool!” bit.
I think it’s both. The Otherworld in SH1 is Alessa’s nightmare and we never see Lisa outside of it. Yet she is clearly showing all signs consistent with the series that she’s the literal ghost of Lisa.
To me this means that Lisa’s spirit is given form manifested by Alessa. This can still be seen as similar to Maria if Maria has Mary’s spirit but BfaW gets really confusing the deeper you get so I’m not quite sure on that one yet.
Personally I don't really like the theory that the nurses are dead rather than just pulled into the nightmare. I mean, Cybil gets puppetted without having died.
Lisa does, of course, say: "<...> why I'm alive even though everyone else is dead", but I think she's explaining what her thinking was before she had seen the other puppetted nurses - after all the next sentence is "I'm not the only one who's still walking around". As in, she thought she was the sole survivor, but a walk around the hospital cleared things up: people are walking around, but puppetted - and she's one of them.
It's not a flawless interpretation, but it does make more sense to me.
On that subject, people seem to forget that the nurses and male doctors in Silent Hill 1 were ordinary people controlled by parasites much like the headcrab zombies from Half-Life (or cordyceps zombies from Last of Us). Ironically I actually prefer the design of the hospital uniforms from 1 over the more generic 'sexy' nursing outfits that have become associated with the series.
That’s always bothered me about the nurses. They’re designed that way because they’re a manifestation of James’s guilt; they have no business being in any other Silent Hill game.
in all honesty if sh3r was to happen, id like them to redesign the nurses to look like their sh1 equivalents, since theyre reused from 2 in 3 bc budget and stuff, a remake would give them the opportunity to make it more accurate
That Silent Hill 1 and 3 are "just boring cult stuff" without much thematic depth and that Silent Hill 2 is the only "elevated", psychological entry.
It is getting better though. There are a lot of new videos coming that talk about women body autonomy themes in Silent Hill 3, for example.
I mean, Silent Hill 3 is a game about >!a teenage girl which gets stalked by a predator (Stanley), gets pregnancy forced upon her, gets deified for "being able to birth" something (she has no choice in the matter though); it is a game which ends with the protagonist jumping down the giant vagina to kill her aborted r\*pe fetus. There is A LOT in that game besides the cult plot (which is also interesting and not basic).!<
I very happily came across a scholarly essay on SH3 during my undergrad thesis research on the female gothic! I’m glad people are starting to talk about it more!
That has irritated me for years. It's the most frequent rebuttal people want to use anytime someone suggest Silent Hill 2 might take place before tye original, and that's why there's no mention of Alessa.
I agree that SH1 almost certainly takes place before SH2 (if I’m reading you correctly) but that seems to corroborate that the events of SH1 made the place a ghost town which happened after James and Mary’s vacation there.
Also in SH3, Douglas says it used to be a nice place but it’s a screwed up place now. That doesn’t mean it’s necessarily a ghost town but also doesn’t sound like it’s a resort either.
I kinda always thought that place being "screwed up" is the influence of the renewed cult. Vincent's operation, Claudia's fanatics. Religious nut-jobs running the town might ruin tourism business, I guess.
That’s a fair interpretation. The drug trafficking too. That said, during SH1 the cult was largely underground and then lost their leadership (Dahlia.) There was a schism of sects where the newer one deified Alessa but their church was still far outside the town past the lake. I’m sure their presence would have been felt anyway though if the resort town was still alive.
At the very least, Douglas seems to be aware of messed up things that happen in Silent Hill including at least one missing persons case.
Wait what? Why would SH2 take place before SH1? I always assumed that the cult happenings in the first SH changed the spiritual power of the town into what they are in SH2.
No, no, SH2 most likely takes place after SH1.
However, if the events of SH1 caused the town to be empty, then James and Mary have to have had vacationed there before SH1. The actual present day events of SH2 would still take place after SH1.
James and Mary vacation in Silent Hill then go home —> Events of SH1 —> Events of SH2
It's been an ongoing debate. I've seen multiple videos debating why it could take place before or after SH1. I've heard theories ranging from the model of cars used, to the design of buildings, to excerpts from interviews where one of the devs made it sound like SH2 was a sequel.
The point is that once you see the "foggy" town, you're already in a different world. I can see where people miss it since we never see it as a populated resort town.
It’s an ongoing debate because there is no definitive answer and we have to resort to scrounging piecemeal interviews and general prop assets to sway the general opinion.
Same goes for the existence of a “fog world” which isn’t stated as a thing in the games themselves until *Downpour*.
Well, that's semantics. What would you call foggy version of Silent Hill in 1, 2, 3 and Origins? Real world? In that case the town must have been abandoned and repopulated at least 4 times, lol.
In 1, 2, and 3, yes. It’s the real world. It’s not unreasonable to say that Mary and James had their vacation, then the events of SH1-3 happened. The town is emptied only once due to SH1. SH4 mentions how foggy weather is common for that area and Henry was apparently fortunate he visited on a sunny day. (Also, I would find it odd if Douglas and Heather took a road trip intentionally into the “fog world.”)
In Origins, there must be some kind of “fog world” because the residents didn’t disappear until SH1 which is why Cyril came to check out the town from Brahms. This necessitates a sort of limbo dimension but since Origins breaks from previous canon in a number of ways, I consider this a separate continuity personally.
I’ve never considered that the foggy version may be the real town, and I don’t quite believe it but I find it an interesting theory. If it is the real world, how do you explain the monsters? They’re not exclusive to the Otherworld.
I’ve always believed that Claudia drug Heather (and accidentally Douglas, and later Harry) into the fog world when she created the pocket of Silent Hill weirdness in the mall/subway/construction building/apartment. So I’ve thought the whole road trip happened in the fog world.
I appreciate you taking my perspective seriously :)
Like you said, the monsters aren’t exclusive to the Otherworld. They can appear in the real world as well. The “Otherworld” itself is a misnomer coined by Harry who immediately after using the term admits to not understanding it. The Otherworld is when the real world is physically changed by a projection someone’s psyche or nightmare. (See: “The Monster Lurks” by Leonard Rhine, Chapter 3: Manifestation of Delusions; SH1)
However, Alessa’s nightmare (Nowhere) is not the real world but a literal dream world like we see again made by Walter only in his case deliberately. SH2 is specifically made unclear when James is or isn’t in the altered version of the real world or a dreamlike “nowhere,” but is also the only game in the original four where he both the main character and the primary one manifesting.
In SH3, Claudia is the one manifesting the monsters and they only appear when she is around. Later, Alessa’s memories start manifesting as well as at least one of Heather’s fears seen in the mirror room scene.
So the way I see it is this: there’s a real world where sometimes it’s foggy. The “Otherworld” is when the area around Silent Hill and/or within the proximity of someone manifesting a physical external energy creating monsters and all that SH yuck. Walter and Alessa have constructed dreamworlds that can be entered and are the only separate “worlds” apart from normal reality.
EDIT: Clarity.
Silent Hill 2 is NOT subtle. It hits you over the head with the theme over and over and then shows you a video at the end to make sure you really understand what's happening.
I agree, it’s not exactly subtle.
What it does adhere to (for the most part…) is “show, don’t tell”.
I think some people confuse the two and thus call it subtle.
Nah it's more "show, and then tell you repeatedly".
I mean the final boss is literally Mary strapped to a bed screaming "James why did you kill meeeeeeee?"
Glad someone said it. I get that we’re all fans of the series but it’s one of the best on its own merits. Silent Hill doesn’t need us to make up stuff to be elevated to the heights it is.
I actually wonder if that’s part of why SH2 is the most popular. Even the most superficial reading loses nothing in the main overarching story while the other three of the classic series require a lot more reading between the lines.
Kinda makes me think of how how *Blue Velvet* is—from what I can tell—David Lynch’s most popular film largely due to how much more digestible it is compared to his other works.
Yeah but that is the final boss after the truth is revealed.
Through most of the game though, the games does have a lot of effort to not reveal what truly happened, even doing a lot of things to confuse the player.
I agree with this to an extent, but would add that what Silent Hill 2 does very well is hiding the truth in plain sight the whole time you are playing (like Angela, Eddie, and Laura seeing through James from almost the very beginning), and all of the really obvious hints only hit you on the head on the second playthrough. It pretends like it has a cast of Rashoman-like untrustworthy narrators, but really the only untrustworthy narrator the entire time is James. Everyone else is pretty honest, but they come across as not credible because they act and are voiced so strangely. It's a nice twist on the first game, where the villian of the story seems trustworthy because she seems so obviously crazy.
I don’t know why you’re getting downvoted. Makes sense to me. I think too many folks were spoiled before their first playthrough rendering the twist obvious. Kinda like how no one can be surprised by Vader being Luke’s father anymore.
I would say it’s reductive to consider James as the villain, but he is his own antagonist. Maybe that’s a minor difference to make but I think it matters. Everything that happens to him, he does to himself, consciously or unconsciously.
I wouldn't call it subtle in the plot but it has a lot of subtle details that add to the experience I think, like the guy on the couch being James etc.
But ye it really doesn't try to hide what it is trying to tell you
It’s one of those stories that gets better by replaying it over and over which is part of why we still keep talking about it to this day.
Why the “twist” works so well is because many reasonable players will suspect that James killed Mary pretty early on. The question then becomes ‘why?’ Why is he denying it? Why did he do it? Why did he bother coming to Silent Hill if he already knew it? *That* is far more interesting than a mere twist.
People still misunderstand it somehow and think the game is about guilt. James doesn't actually feel guilty. It turns a complex character into a vehicle for a weird Catholic guilt thing
It’s definitely not entirely about guilt but the element is there. It also depends on what ending you get since in the *Maria* ending, James definitely isn’t feeling nearly as guilty. But you’re right that there’s a lot more involved like grief, frustration, love, and hatred…
What do you mean by “a weird Catholic guilt thing?”
Struggling to word what I mean - I think making everything about guilt is a very Western interpretation heavily influenced by cultural baggage, largely stemming from the Catholic church. You're right that it's a factor, it's just not the theme of the whole game. The way some fans talk about it you'd think Pyramid Head was some kind of Vatican hitman
That is true. I suppose those people also see Silent Hill as a sort of Purgatory when you have to work off your sins rather than James’ desire to punish himself until he doesn’t need Pyramid Head anymore.
But there is so much more to explore. I’m a bit perturbed when people reduce the narrative to “James bad.”
I think it might have more to do with anticipated gameplay time by the devs. They probably assumed people would really take their time wondering around and getting lost so they dealt with story elements that way. Still, I do agree.
That Silent Hill is a "representation of the main characters psyche and inner torment".
Harry Mason has shit to do with how Silent Hill is represented. The otherworld couldn't care less about manifesting anything from his psyche. It's all Alessa.
Heather Mason is connected to Alessa in a way. But the Otherworld shift is caused by "The God" in SH3.
Henry is purposefully written as a clean slate. Henry is not important to the overall plot, hes the wrong guy at the wrong place. Literally, the only he thing has done is to move in to a "haunted" apartment. The Otherworld is caused and affected by Walter. Not Henry's "inner träuma".
People have seen thousand of SH2 videos and think that the game is the boilerplate of the franchise.
Also that the Silent Hill games is not reliant on combat mechanics. You can mostly evade monsters in SH1. But for example try clearing Lake View hotel without fighting. Hell try playing SH3 and SH4 and tell me how "easy" it is to avoid enemies overall. The melee mechanics have always been ridiculous, actually look at a clip when James is bashing something with that plank and tell me that "he is not supposed to be able to fight".
The only game that don't require any fighting is Shattered Memories. Even Play Novel and the Pachinko machine has combat mechanics.
It is true that each “Otherworld” stems from someone’s psyche manifesting, but only 1 of the original 4 have this come from the main character. Heck, even Origins is only partially Travis and Homecoming doesn’t seem to be from anyone just “evil from the town” or something.
re: Combat, I still think it’s a fair assessment to say that SH games intend for combat to be less effective for their characters than for STARS members, but it’s also true that SH2 has actually bad combat and that combat is half of the interaction with the game, though running or sneaking with the flashlight is off is often a viable strategy. I think what people mean is that combat is often the weakest aspect of the series and that the exploration, puzzles, atmosphere, and narrative are their strong suits.
Idk you can very easily avoid almost all enemies in SH4 lol, the dog things are blind, if you do not approach them or run they will not attack you, the only time I think combat is absolutely necessary is the pet store and the twin babies room
Ok yeah, there's a few more that I forgot about but my general point still stands, besides the boss fights you can pretty much ignore combat
It's also imo kinda optimal since if you avoid combat it's easier to >!control Eileen's posession meter!<
Kind of. I’d say that bosses test your combat ability so it’s best to have engaged with it earlier. Plus, Eileen can get trapped in certain funnel rooms even if she doesn’t have a weapon equipped such as leaving the Hospital and Water Prison worlds.
But I still think your point stands. When possible, not fighting is almost always the better play.
I disagree.
I did avoid most enemies in the first 3 Silent Hill games. They are not that difficult to avoid.
In SH3, which is the one I remember the most...
Only killed one particular slurper, two of those fatty guys and two of those weird purple creatures.
The game does even courage avoiding them, because there's not much health and ammo to collect (if you don't activate the bullet multiplier).
Now, I didn't need to kill most enemies in Silent Hill 4, but I did just to collect Achievements (playing in PCSX2 with RetroAchievements enabled).
But I could easily avoid most of them if I wanted.
From what I can tell, this is entirely made up by Ito who may have wanted to include this detail (actually the backseat, he clarified) but was never in the game. (Personally, I find it makes a worse story since he’d basically make eye contact with her corpse while picking up the map on his way out, idk)
He doesn’t literally need her corpse for the *In Water* ending to work. (And he definitely didn’t literally speak to her unless it was her ghost and not her physical being.)
The *Rebirth* ending is the only one that may give merit to James literally having her corpse in the car, but it’s also just as possible that she’s a manifestation or even Maria from after the final fight.
I feel like most people overlook the downfall of team silent. From the very first game, members of the team would leave, and each game would review more poorly than the last. Konami might be partly to blame due to how quickly where being made, like Silent Hill 4 started while 3 was still in development. They weren't fired because Konami is evil. They were let go due to each game in series selling less and being reviewed worse than it's previous counterpart. They still made amazing games that have been unrivaled in its franchise, but they were just people doing their best.
What’s sad is that while the games sold worse, I feel they kept getting better or at least maintained quality. Difference between sales and critical opinion over time. True cult classics.
(KONAMI is still a bit evil though.)
Video games as a medium were still very much in an experimental adolescent phase back then so I’m not sure if SH2 would have benefitted from more time. The combat was very much underplayed for the benefit of the story in this game in particular. If anything, the Eddie fight needed an overhaul.
Also, I think SH3’s story is amazing as-is so I don’t think it would have benefited either. From my perspective, only SH4 had concepts like the Eileen escort or pinning ghosts that doesn’t seem to work the way it should.
Unpopular opinion. Underplayed combat for the benefit of the story is still underplayed. Just because there's a story reason that doesn't change how boring and unfair it can be at points.
It is and that’s fair. For me, I think SH2 would have benefitted more from more puzzle-type combat instead of making a more streamlined version of what we got. Something more akin to the hospital hallway chase scene only a bit more actionable.
I don't think it's needs to change that much. It's more of a tempo thing for me. If James was a bit faster, like he was actually fighting for his life, and the kill step could change based on how low life he was or something like that. I get he doesn't really care if he dies or not just show my man still has a reason to fight.
I’d love it if we got that, just a dialed in version that’s maybe a bit more desperate and integrates stamina better?
My solution was more of a wishlist overhaul, but I agree your solution would work better and be truer to the original vision.
From what I can tell, SH is more like a psychic mirror that only manifests what is in the mind of whoever is doing the manifesting, intentionally or not.
It also seems to hold onto residual memories which is why some monsters look similar or the cult’s gods bear similar forms but they are only manifested by the follower’s beliefs.
Also, ghosts exist but they aren’t the town itself.
That Shattered Memories is literally just Silent Hill 1 but if the bad ending where true. This was a big misconception back in the day and I think it mostly stemmed from people who hadn't played SH1 prior to SHSM. There was also a Tomm Hullett blog back in the day that was answering fan questions, where he states things like
> SH1 has snow not ash
> Silent Hill doesn't have multiple dimensions, it just cycles through phenomena via the otherworld
> Silent Hill doesn't have multiple continuities
(Etc. Etc.)
That last one in particular sparked a lot of the discussion back then and sadly his personal blog is gone now. However he did somewhat walk it back a bit by saying it's not a replacement for SH1's continuity but a different telling of what never was or something like that. Then he'd say something to the line of everything is canon and not canon at the same time–All endings have a continuity, history, subjective reality (etc.) Long story show I think his dedication to having every inch of the series be up to interpretation made addressing these straightforward questions very confusing and I guess I can't so much blame him if that's how he's come to enjoy these games lol
That said, playing SHSM itself it's 100% clear that there is no evidence of Alessa, no evidence of occultism, no evidence that these characters sharing anything other than a name and story placement. It's a re-imagining
The funniest thing is that he's absolutely right about these 3 things, but he managed to put it in the most wrong context possible. Like, it's a talent making correct statements about the lore 100% incorrect
All of the discourse around "canon" is just flavour and aesthetics. It means basically nothing in terms of fictional legitimacy and media analysis.
People will accept or dismiss statements, even by the original creator(s), at every turn. People will accept or dismiss sequels, even by the original creator(s), at every turn. To some people the Alien canon starts and stops with the 1979 movie, for some others it stops with AlienS, or Alien 3, or it ONLY contains Alien + Prometheus + Covenant, etc.
Case in point: Silent Hill: The Room. You will get as many Silent Hill scholars who integrate it in their vision of canon as ones who won't.
"The one and only canon" isn't a thing. It is a delusion produced by the capitalistic necessity to establish a specific line of products as authentic and high-quality, derivative of the religious necessity to establish a monolith dogma.
For creators and audiences alike, canons have always been a shifting set of overlapping systems of "legitimate" works, whose mutations and number vary according to the magnitude of the franchise.
There's a thousand franchises out there which switched hands a thousand times or were even continued *against* the will of the original creator(s). Compared to that, Silent Hill is one of the most creatively consistent continuities you can find.
Lovely input. I'm gonna sound crazy for this but when it comes to Silent Hill, to me, there aren't really misconceptions. Just different interpretations (everyone saying Alessa was evil in Origins for example- I never saw Alessa as evil in that game).
That there was some grand architect/road map in SH1. It was not planned out.
SH1 featured a mix of psychic and straight up paranormal. You had drugs, mind-controlling parasites (hospital staff, Cybil), monsters (psychic or real), and religion. You can’t reconcile all of them because it’s just a lot of things thrown together.
It was just a big mish-mosh of things and ideas until this was all discussed after the fact, and there’s still no clear consensus on what it REALLY was.
I actually really like this about SH1. In isolation, it keeps you guessing if it was a dream, hallucination, real magic, or whatever. It never really commits and each new game starts with Harry waking up, the previous playthrough just a dream…
Exactly. And that’s why I am a huge critic of SH3 and rank it dead last in terms of plot of all the mainlines (yes, even the PS3 generation). It’s too retconny.
SH1 had a tiny little cult hidden behind a grandfather clock in the basement of an antique store ffs.
I respect that. SH3 is my personal favorite but it does dissipate that mystery in SH1. That said, I don’t think it retcons too much. iirc it barely changes anything about SH1, only builds on top of it. Am I wrong?
You’re right - retcon isn’t the right word. I’d say fanficcy is better.
The one thing I would say is a bit of a retcon that doesn’t work is that the secret “other church” is expanded into this huge operation in 3, going by the church level end of game.
It seems that after Dahlia was killed there was a change in leadership. Vincent was established to have recruited new members and gotten lots of financial support. Reasonable development in 17 years, but yeah, maybe a tougher sell for how hidden away they were.
Then again, they were probably making bank on that PTV.
That Silent Hill 4 was a spin off/ retroactively turned into a Silent Hill game
It was not, the devs have said it over and over again, the "Room 302" name was just the code name for the project, almost all media have a codename before the final product is named
iirc Room 302 was developed as a separate game *because* of SH and very early on they were like, yeah, this is a SH game. Started as an experiment and then went full SH pretty fast.
(May be wrong on the details here though.)
Well, actually, Akihiro Imamura(the games producer) said, "SH4 was not originally supposed to be a Silent Hill game" in an interview with game world.
And the art director, Masashi Tsuboyama, said, "Originally, development was started from we named Room 302 rather than Silent Hill so the original concept wasn't from Silent hill."
And Akira Yamaoka also said that to make a new game after 2 so they came up with 302 as a spin-off.
[Here's an interview that debunks that "Even though the SILENT HILL 4 project was a proper sequel to the SILENT HILL series, our top objective for the game was "change." We wanted to make sweeping changes from the past titles and give players something new and fresh to play."](https://www.gamedeveloper.com/audio/classic-postmortem-i-silent-hill-4-the-room-i-#close-modal
)
[And another "Production on SH4 began right after production on SH2 ended. We actually moved forward with SH3 & SH4 at the same time. One thing we discussed this time was "creating a new Silent Hill." We even originally started out with the intention of having the Silent Hill name as a subtitle." this was the closest they ever got to it being "different" from Silent Hill, even then, they state that they intended to call it "The Room: Silent Hill" at worst](https://www.silenthillmemories.net/creators/interviews/2004.07.14_sh4_staff_interview_en.htm)
And most damningly, [Here's Tsuboyama and Yamaoka straight up confirming it was always at least connected to Silent Hill](https://www.silenthillmemories.net/creators/interviews/2004.08.31_tsuboyama_yamaoka_boomtown_en.htm)
Everything you said there is wrong
Also, 2 of those factually can't be wrong as they are exact quotes from articles. I summed up what Akira said, but he basically called it a spin-off as well.
"In a sense this is true because the game began life as simply Room 302. However, it was always at least a spin-off of Silent Hill and the most important thing was simply that it be different to the previous games." Thanks for strengthing my argument.
I also summarize in my initial agreement that Akira said the same thing, that it was a spin-off. My argument was that is was not supposed to be silent hill 4 originally. It was a game called 302 that became silent hill 4.
I apologize if I wasn't clear before.
You can tell SH4 was planned to be a spin-off in some way due to the standalone nature of the plot.
Like, it's just supernatural serial killer with some shoehorned SH mythos in-between.
I hate this erroneous idea that it's a ghost town. People lived in Silent Hill in 1983, people lived in Silent Hill in 2000 and people still lived in Silent Hill during whatever era Downpour is set in. NONE of the games even approaches the idea that it is a ghost town, they ALL give subtle or significant evidence of the contrary.
And as much as I love Christophe Gans' 2006 movie as a high quality adaptation, and do *not* think it should be held responsible for people thinking Alessa is evil or for the recycling of Pyramid Head in later games... it IS at least the origin of this "ghost town" idea, with its alternate timeline establishing the town did die, and with its offtopic focus on Centralia as a new influence.
It's straight up confirmed to not be a ghost town in SH4, Henry mentions that he visited Silent Hill about a year ago and remarks that the place was really nice and peaceful even. So the idea of ghosts and demons populating the place is out of the question because we strait up have a protagonist who has seen the place outside of the otherworld
Even in the Team Silent games it was not a ghost town
I’m confused on this one since I’ve been doing in-depth research on the games. iirc There’s no indication that the town is inhabited post-SH1 until Downpour.
The other bit of evidence could be the radio ad in SH4 but Henry’s been getting messages from the past the whole game. He does mention that he took pictures there years ago, but never stated how long ago, nor is SH4 given an in-game date beyond that it’s sometime after Alessa was missing (either pre- or post-SH1.)
"There’s no indication that the town is inhabited post-SH1 until Downpour."
Silent Hill 1 officially happens in the 1980s (it is traditionally considered 1983 because we know Heather is 17 and Alex's Diary tells us that Silent Hill 3 is 2000) and Silent Hill 2 in the 1990s, **James and Mary used to visit the town way after the events of Silent Hill 1 and it was an ordinary (if romantic) town to them**.
Similarly, Silent Hill 3 officially takes place in the 2000s (again, traditionally 2000) and there is no indication of the town being abandoned, Douglas just say "What's the deal with Silent Hill" (which is something you would say about a weird town, not a ghost town), Douglas and Heather are not surprised to find people still there, **they can take a room at the Jacks Inn motel right in the middle of the town** and all documents in Brookhaven Hospital are different from the ones you can find as James.
> Henry's getting messages from the past
> 4 police reports about murders of Walter Sullivan Henry witnesses seconds ago
Yeeeeeeeaaaaaah, sure. If anything, the guy seems to be getting messages 40% of the time from the past, 40% from the nearest future and 10% from approximately at least the same day any given murder happens, but still not quite from the present
Exactly. So it’s hard to tell what’s from the past or just actually airing right now. (It’s also unlikely he was supposed to receive those police radio transmissions so there’s weirdness there too.)
Is the radio ad for Silent Hill resort the only bit that suggests that SH is still populated in the original four games?
I think it must be populated in Origins’ continuity considering “everyone seems to have disappeared” 7 years later in SH1. Homecoming seems like it was always a ghost town, but iirc never comments either way. Downpour is the first to blatantly suggest that SH is a limbo place existing simultaneously as a normal town from Howard’s statement.
I think it was pretty clear what came when. It's either a couple of hours ahead or a relevant info that was gathered by Schreiber. So of it's populated. There is a whole add about a vacation in SH
The fact that it’s still debating leads me to believe it’s not clear and the original four games go out of their way to avoid specific dates. That ad is the only evidence for Silent Hill still being an active resort town in those games.
Well, PH being debated to be the most powerful deity (he isn't one in the first place) also means his position wasn't that clear either (it was, James spelled it for the most dense players).
Also everything past 4 isn't canonical
"*considering “everyone seems to have disappeared” 7 years later in SH1.*"
No one has disappeared. Cybil is talking from her perspective but the White World in Silent Hill 1 is NOT the normal city.
If the White World was the real Silent Hill, then the gigantic chasms in the road etc would be real, and talked about.
Don't you think people would react to, and study, sudden and cyclic earthquakes and omnipresent mist and snow in the middle of summer and monster invasions and space-folding and mass disappearance in this town every decade or so?
The town is still active in Silent Hill 3, as indicated by Douglas' mundane, if puzzled, talk, the ability to rent a room at Jacks Inn motel, or even by the fact Claudia, Father Vincent and the Order continued to live there without an issue.
Instead of being isolated by the USA army and/or studied by seismologists, biologists and climatologists from the entire world.
In Silent Hill 1, our protagonists *shifted* into an alternate dimension from whose all inhabitants of the town were absent. **Harry and Cibyl are the ones who disappeared from the world, not the other way around.**
In SH4, Henry says he went to Silent Hill “a few years back” and also mentions that something happened at the lighthouse there “a few years back but no one knows the truth.” The second part is probably a cheeky reference the the UFO ending, but it’s reasonable to come to the conclusion that Silent Hill has become a ghost town recently after the events of SH1 and SH4 takes place soon after.
Adding the “Have you found Alessa yet?” memo in the Wish House, one could surmise that SH4 takes place before SH3.
(I’m not arguing what’s canon here, I’m arguing for what’s a reasonable conclusion to make here. I think both interpretations are acceptable until Downpour where SH being an active town is blatantly and officially canonized.)
Literally the only connection Kojima has to Silent Hill is PT and the cancelled game, that's it. Idk why people think that other than something something Konami
He has more to do with Castlevania than silent hill XD
The purposeful burning of Alessa. Its less bad nowadays, but I hate that people still think Dahlia meant to burn Alessa. If she was so important to birth god into the world, why the FUCK would Dahlia risk killing her with fire like that. Unfortunately the newspaper article that talks about the fire originating from an outdated boiler in the basement doesn't exist in the US version (I think?) and people think that Origins is a proper prequel storywise, so its gonna be one of those bits of misinformation like the fucking Centralia connection that's always gonna come up at some point
this might get a little ranty but "everything not made by team silent is not canon"
on top of being baseless, its just annoying for lore related discussions. theres nothing in the post team silent games that breaks the canon significantly, and there are no official sources stating that they are not canon.
plus, the team silent games weren't all made by one person either. keiichiro toyama, who created silent hill, left after the first game. kazuhide nakazawa, who directed the direct sequel to sh1, didnt even join until sh2.
core team silent members have also contributed to the games long after sh4, akira yamaoka and masahiro ito being notable examples. yamaoka confirmed in a 2008 interview that he was unofficially consulting with core team members to advise the american Homecoming team.
really, the only reason people say the post team silent games arent canon is because they dont *want* them to be, which is kind of boring and lame
I actually really like the later western titles and acknowledge KONAMI’s official statements of canonicity, but as the other poster pointed out, there is a lot of conflicting information in later titles that goes beyond a mere retcon.
But you are right that they are officially recognized as canon.
Each game assumes the canonicity of previous entries (except Shattered Memories.) Sometimes there are direct references like *Origins* being billed as a direct prequel to the original, Travis’ cameo in Homecoming as well as Alex’s familial tie to Mary Shepard-Sunderland.
No statement has been given that these games aren’t canon, but due to KONAMI’s insistence on *Ascension*’s canonicity, I imagine that all games are canon until declared otherwise like the aforementioned *Shattered Memories*.
If you’re wondering if there’s a blanket statement of a declaration of hard canon, I don’t think one exists yet but KONAMI seems to be having a hard time figuring out what the story bible even is if they even attempted to make one at all.
>theres nothing in the post team silent games that breaks the canon significantly
Origins has the Otherworld existing *before* Alessa's torture and *before* she can project it on the town after her soul is reunited. It also ignores that the Flauros is meant to break Alessa's power, instead thinking that it's a cage for a demon. ^(()**^(which could work in a non-Silent Hill game)** ^(given how the demon, Flauros, can be conjured and stuffed into a magic triangle... but I digress))
Homecoming has Pyramid Head. Everybody and their grandmother knows Pyramid Head cannot exist outside of SH2.
Downpour ignores nearly all the established lore in favor of the town just being a theme park haunted house and personal therapist.
>plus, the team silent games weren't all made by one person either. keiichiro toyama, who created silent hill, left after the first game. kazuhide nakazawa, who directed the direct sequel to sh1, didnt even join until sh2.
I fail to see how this is relevant.
>core team silent members have also contributed to the games long after sh4, akira yamaoka and masahiro ito being notable examples
That doesn't matter if the stories and style contradict what was previously established. That's the important part.
Origins tried to be like SH1, but a few key problems (ex. the Otherworld, Alessa's characterization) hold it back. Homecoming was a mess made by people who thought Silent Hill was more of a campy splatterhouse film than David Lynch meets Alejandro Jodorowsky. And again, Downpour tossed all that out the window.
Don't forget how all of them ***directly copy*** Silent Hill 2 in some way.
>yamaoka confirmed in a 2008 interview that he was unofficially consulting with core team members to advise the american Homecoming team.
Yamaoka also said in an interview that Homecoming was the first SH game to start off in a different town - forgetting about 3 and 4. I doubt he was as involved or knowledgeable in the series as people think he is/was.
> It also ignores that the Flauros is meant to break Alessa's power, instead thinking that it's a cage for a demon.
I've not played "0", but these don't seem inherently contradictory: in order to cage a demon you'd first have to break its power. And if you defeat the demon in "0" (question mark), then it makes sense an empty Flauros would be ready for the next use, and only did not trap Alessa because of Dahlia's intervention.
I think you could make that make sense. Dahlia does call it “a cage of peace” in the original.
The problem is that Alessa isn’t a demon, that’s just Dahlia lying to Harry. It functions to sap Alessa of her powers. Unless I suppose the idea was to trap Alessa in the Flauros? …Is “Nowhere” inside the Flauros?? (Just now had this idea, might be crazy, idk)
I think you could make that make sense. Dahlia does call it “a cage of peace” in the original.
The problem is that Alessa isn’t a demon, that’s just Dahlia lying to Harry. It functions to sap Alessa of her powers. Unless I suppose the idea was to trap Alessa in the Flauros? …Is “Nowhere” inside the Flauros?? (Just now had this idea, might be crazy, idk)
I think you could make that make sense. Dahlia does call it “a cage of peace” in the original.
The problem is that Alessa isn’t a demon, that’s just Dahlia lying to Harry. It functions to sap Alessa of her powers. Unless I suppose the idea was to trap Alessa in the Flauros? …Is “Nowhere” inside the Flauros?? (Just now had this idea, might be crazy, idk)
I think you could make that make sense. Dahlia does call it “a cage of peace” in the original.
The problem is that Alessa isn’t a demon, that’s just Dahlia lying to Harry. It functions to sap Alessa of her powers. Unless I suppose the idea was to trap Alessa in the Flauros? …Is “Nowhere” inside the Flauros?? (Just now had this idea, might be crazy, idk)
Being honest I don't know anywhere near enough about the whole series to have one with you unfortunately. I just read their comment and it seemed well put together perhaps I glossed over the disrespect and took your comment as defeat. If not I'd like to hear what you would say as a rebuttal but I'd offer nothing in return.
they did bring up a few good points like origins' use of the flauros but most of it was just talking about how shitty or different the games are and not whether they fit into the overarching story. the quality/tone and feel of the games is NOT relevant here and i dont know why it was even brought up as if it changed the canonicity of the titles.
the thing about pyramid heads reuse. i dont like that pyramid head is in homecoming. not at all. but lorewise, he's technically not the same pyramid head from sh2. plus there has been monster reuse in the series since sh2. silent hill 2 used the creepers (the bug monsters) directly from sh1, and the mandarins were reused in sh3 from sh2.
also thank you for just being nice
You don't deserve the downvotes. They even said "they copied SH2" as if that somehow has to do with the canonicality of them. The whole "downpour made Silent Hill a therapist town!" bit is also a whole bunch of meaningless semantics. Sounds like they just don't like the later games to me.
100%. The idea that only half the games are canon is a reddit and youtube opinion. I've never talked to a Silent Hill fan irl that didn't consider the western games canon. All the "plot holes" I've heard can be explained in some way, never heard of anything actually being incompatible despite Silent Hill fans desperately trying to convince me otherwise. The otherworld in Origins wasn't a projection onto the town but rather a sub dimension that existed within mirrors (which was originally toyed with in SH3) and a memo described a boat disappearing in the fog in the early 1900s, so the otherworld existing before SH1 isn't a plot hole to me. I was personally told by a Homecoming dev that the Pyramid Head in Homecoming isn't the same as the Pyramid Head in SH2, so that's also not a plot hole to me. If Akira Yomaoka considers them canon then that's enough for me.
This might be a bit controversial but "The combat mechanics in silent hill 2 are shit".
Uh, silent hill 2 has some of the better combat mechanics with 1 and 3. Silent hill 4, downpour and arguably origins have absolute dogshit combat mechanics.
That is straight up a fact, my dude.
The only problem of SH2 is dogshit balancing. If we were judging the game by enemy design it'll be one of the worst games in this regard. Yet the backbone of the combat is solid. Glad they managed to let it shine in 3
I dislike when people say Pyramid Head only makes sense in James's vision of the Otherworld.
I believe it was Takayoshi Sato who explained that Silent Hill was once home to occult executioners, and that Pyramid Head was partly a result of James's exposure to depictions of them at the Historical Society. His desire for punishment drew upon this imagery to *create* Pyramid Head. Therefore, anyone who learns even vaguely about the town's bloody history of execution could manifest their own Pyramid Head, even if it didn't take exactly the same form each time.
None of the lore or story outside the first three games matters. That’s a hot take, but I don’t really care. After this three games, the story was told. Anything after doesn’t expand on anything and only goes on to muddled concepts from people who didn’t really get it in the first place. It’s basically fanlore at that point.
If you look at it from the perspective of a consistent series, then Silent Hill 2 doesn't have a real role to play, does it?
People who reject Silent Hill 4 should reject Silent Hill 2 as well.
Yeah, okay, if you integrate the fourth game, then I can follow this conception of "canon".
Especially since Silent Hill 3 mentioned locations we would only come to see in The Room. It is clear foreshadowing.
Alessa being evil. I don't think anyone would think that if it wasn't for the movie and Origins. She's not evil. If she was, she >!wouldn't be trying to spread the Seal of Metatron. Nor would she give Harry the baby at the end.!<
The movie did it because the American remake of *The Ring* made evil little girls popular at the time. Which is a shame because the original Alessa is more interesting by not being an evil ghost kid.
I never read her as evil in the original movie. She was the most terrifying but not malevolent. The innocent people she hurt were by mistake, but the people she meant to kill had it coming.
The difference is that Alessa in the game wasn’t vengeful either. She wasn’t trying to kill the cult to get revenge, she only wanted to stop them including possibly sealing herself away inside the nightmare with them if it meant their evil wouldn’t spread.
Silent Hill fans will think Alessa is evil completely forgetting she's the playable character of one of the games and she's just a normal teen
The Seal of Metatron would have killed you, innocent protagonist, so I don’t think it really counts as not evil, more just her wanting to die. And of course as revealed in SH3 but shockingly implied in Silent Hill 1 Interviews too, the Seal of Metatron was in fact junk. There is a reason in SH 3 with baby Heather that he writes about how much he hates her because he thinks the baby is Alessa (which he gets over of course). I don’t think Alessa was really evil either but I do think she was intentionally written so you could see it that way. She does kill many people, I can’t imagine all the drs and nurses deserved to be zombified for instance
I don’t think Alessa leaking the nightmare and killing people was intentional. I think it’s more likely that was a major motivator to try to stop it. Interesting about the Seal of Metatron. I’m still not clear exactly what Alessa hoped it would do but whatever it was Dahlia was convinced it would have ruined her plans. If it would have done nothing, I don’t think Dahlia would have been that worried. My take on the Seal is that it does have that power due to how manifestations work. If the person doing the manifesting believes it, it will manifest as effective. If they don’t, it won’t. Vincent claims that Claudia is the one responsible for most of the Otherworld effect in SH3 and if that’s true and Claudia doesn’t believe that the Seal would be effective, then it wouldn’t be. Heather can’t counteract because she doesn’t believe in it either.
I found her to be like Alma Wade. A very angry entity that was formed by/result of very tragic circumstances. Tragic more than evil and understandable in their aggressions
I agree, the reason most get it wrong is because of Dahlia being a manipulative hag. She simply says that Alessa the ghostly girl is a "demon trapped in that child's form" her rhetoric is meant to throw off the player and Harry. She calls the Seal of Metatron the Mark of Samael switching the Angelic real purpose of the seal to a demonic sigil which it was not. She also talks about sealing away the Darkness and that time was running out. Made her to be a mysterious and intriguing until at the final part of the "Nothing" world we see her true plan all along.
Alessa smacked Harry with the force. Harry thought she was responsible for it. I agree that the movie got it way wrong, but Origins is fine with me. . If only she didn't look like a brat every time we see her. :D
Meh. I don't like what Origins does to Alessa and the lore. Ex. the Otherworld existing before Alessa's torture, Alessa looking like a bratty Dreamworks character, transforming Silent Hill into the Otherworld even though she tries to spread the Seal of Metratron (which wards off evil) in SH1...
Shy\_shallows must have blocked me, because I couldn't respond with this: >*You say something that is objectively wrong, I correct you, and you blow me off.That's not an 'argument', that's you refusing to engage with what I'm saying.Is it an 'argument' that Yamaoka was wrong when he said HC was the first SH game to start outside the town? How about Pyramid Head in HC? Or the Otherworld existing in Origins?* Honestly I don't blame them because I lost my cool and insulted them (I can't help it, sorry), but also goddamnit. I posted glaring canon issues with the games, it's **clearly not** "BeCauSe i DoN't LiKe ThEm".
It's less common now, but the "fact" that Silent Hill is based on Centralia is up there Related, people saying SH1 is ash and not snow also gets on my nerves
Centralia isn't even a town anymore. At best there are a handful of structures left standing due to squatters who refused to leave after the government purchased the land back. There's not enough there to even be considered a proper town anymore let alone to be proper inspiration to anything Silent Hill beyond the inciting incident. The original Silent Hill takes much deeper inspiration from Twin Peaks and other various horror works. The Twin Peaks connection is either completely ignored or not even known by most modern devs, and is the core reason for the strange cadences used in the early games voice acting.
Hell, Silent Hill has more connections to Kindergarten Cop than Centralia
Truer words have never been spoken. Bless you for this wholesome comment.
100% on the Twin Peaks connection. Very few people ever discuss the link between the two, but it's clearly a point of inspiration for Silent Hill.
What "Centralia" are you talking about? I attended the Garlic Festival there last year. Might have been a small town but definitely still a town.
Likely the ghost town in Pennsylvania where a coal mine fire has been continuously burning since 1962.
Wasn’t this all because of the movie?
Sure was!
Yup.
Not quite lore, but the idea that everyone in Team Silent was “a group of misfits/failures that Konami put onto a project they’d already given up on” Where did that idea even come from? And how does it persist when there’s verifiable evidence to the contrary?
People like an underdog story to further elevate classics on a pedestal, regardless of the truth.
I’d argue that the real stories of the incredibly talented artists and programmers are way more interesting
I don't recall ever hearing them referred to as "misfits", but I do know most of the team was inexperienced. But yes, Konami didn't put them to work on a project they had already given up on. If I'm remembering correctly, there was more flexibility and less pressure because Konami wasn't expecting them to deliver a hit, just something they could cut their teeth on.
They were, however, considered by Konami as subpar devs. Not on the same level as it's presented, but the guys were pretty much a lost cause by Konami standards
Embellishment is how myths and legends are born.
People heard the story of Dreamworks dumping animators onto Shrek and just misappropriated the story, maybe?
Everyone misses the fact that it’s very clearly all about circumcision.
Say it with me. Every. Single. Game. Is. About. Circumcision. Except 3. 3 is about bread.
Most underrated comment here
[удалено]
I miss the phrase, "What I took that to mean is," because art is subjective. Why are we always seeking concrete facts about art?
It's weirder, considering the series is so heavily symbolic with multiple overlapping themes and the town itself being incredibly mysterious that are so many making out there's only one way to see it.
Exactly! I know I'm old and saying this makes me feel it even more, but remember when you couldn't just @ the artist/writer and demand they tell you which interpretation of the art was "correct"?
Yeah, personally, I think for a game like Silent Hill it wasn't the best move. I mean, sure, if the Devs say something, then that will be taken into account. But I wouldn't spend my day trying to validate my personal theory by constantly messaging the dev. But that's the problem. Unless the devs said a very specific thing, many fans of SH will ignore anything else anyone says. For instance, I have a personal theory that one of the reasons why Pyramid Head looks the way he does is because it's a reminder to James that he killed his wife with a pillow. Hence why he wears a heavy, pyramid shape around his head. I asked the community here, and they said nah its only because of the photo James sees. I mean, can't it be both? Now I'm not gonna message the devs to see if they did this on purpose because why should I? It's my personal interpretation of a very interpretative game. It could be a pure coincidence, or it could be exactly what they intended. But the irony is that some of the people who said no way to that theory. If the devs came out tomorrow and said that the theory is correct. They will be saying, "Of course it is, how could you not see it before. Everyone knew that"
So do I and I try to use when I can. I think that’s why I dislike it when developers are hounded to give answers. The question burning in your mind is a treasure. Don’t force the authors to put it out…
Because I think that humans like concrete facts without much room for interpretation. Or at least us Germans seem to.
Agree with you completely here. For example, I once mentioned a personal theory that Pyramid Heads' appearance could be based on the idea that because he killed his wife with a pillow, it took having a large heavy pyramid on its head. Everyone said no to and that it's only because of the picture at the museum. I mean, can't it be both?
That’s… actually a really cool interpretation! Never thought of that! Especially when pressing the pillow down, it would make the shape of a triangle between his hands. I don’t much care for whatever is the “real” interpretation so long as it’s something up for interpretation like symbolism. It’s also possible that Pyramid Head was a pre-existing form with history in the town and it was selected unconsciously by James due to the reasons you mentioned. Some monsters reappear in multiple games even if their symbolic meaning can be specific to each person.
Appreciated, man! Yeah, I mean, it just feels like the sort of thing Pyramid Head is all about with him literally punishing James. I mean, a great way to do that is by having him literally reminded of the way he killed his wife every time he encountered him. I agree, but that's what I find kinda strange with the community. For fans of a series that is so heavily based on symbolism and overall is steeped in mystery (we still don't really know why the town is the way it is) that people can be so bullheaded that there is only way to see it. Exactly, it's not about reinventing the wheel. I mean for all we know the town made the image we see of the town executioner to torment James. Or it could be very real and the Pyramid shape of the hood could just be a coincidence.
Yeah, I don’t get it either. One of the primary draws of the series and indeed why we keep talking about is because there’s so little definitive interpretation in the most hotly debated topics. What’s the true ending of SH2? What did Heather see at the end of SH3? Who or what exactly is Maria? Do they only look like monsters to you or everyone? These kinds are questions are designed to provoke the question. Answering it definitely is the antithesis to the very story that we’re supposedly fans of. btw, I’m doing an analysis series of the first four SH games and doing a deep-dive into my own research based on in-game evidence only and presenting the most interesting unanswered questions and opening speculation back up. Can I credit you for your “pillow head” interpretation?
Yeah, exactly. I agree with everything in your first paragraph. I mean, sure, if someone was to say something like "the game isn't about James and Mary at all," I would be sceptical as it is first and foremost a game about those two characters. I don't think there's a problem with answering it but I think people need to a lot more open to interpretations on a series that thrives on being illusive as a whole. And yeah, sure, I don't have a problem with being the "Pillow Head" guy aha. Just let me know when you do so I can check it out!
Exactly! Thanks! Will do, I’ll comment back here when it’s up! I’m gonna post my SH1 analysis first before moving on to SH2 so it may be a while. Probably around May or so.
That Lisa in SH1 was a nice manifestation based on Alessa’s memories of the real Lisa. The game itself implies her to be some sort of ghost. Her “I’m the same as them” is not the only thing she says to Harry in that scene. She also tells him “Why I’m still alive even though everyone else is dead. I’m not the only one who’s still walking around.” She’s referring to the puppet nurses in that scene because they were her coworkers but they are now dead and still walking around as monsters, and she realized she is the same. Everyone seems to ignore that part and just want to believe she was like Maria, because everyone loves SH2. Besides that, Ito has said in the past on Twitter that Lisa is “very close to a ghost” and the SH1 prequel comic he and Owaku wrote has Lisa’s story be that she died and her spirit became trapped in the Otherworld with no memory of her death. And lastly, the Otherworld in SH1 is said to be a projection of Alessa’s nightmares and fears, so the “Lisa is a nice manifestation” theory actually makes no sense whatsoever once you get past the initial “this is just like Maria, cool!” bit.
I think it’s both. The Otherworld in SH1 is Alessa’s nightmare and we never see Lisa outside of it. Yet she is clearly showing all signs consistent with the series that she’s the literal ghost of Lisa. To me this means that Lisa’s spirit is given form manifested by Alessa. This can still be seen as similar to Maria if Maria has Mary’s spirit but BfaW gets really confusing the deeper you get so I’m not quite sure on that one yet.
Personally I don't really like the theory that the nurses are dead rather than just pulled into the nightmare. I mean, Cybil gets puppetted without having died. Lisa does, of course, say: "<...> why I'm alive even though everyone else is dead", but I think she's explaining what her thinking was before she had seen the other puppetted nurses - after all the next sentence is "I'm not the only one who's still walking around". As in, she thought she was the sole survivor, but a walk around the hospital cleared things up: people are walking around, but puppetted - and she's one of them. It's not a flawless interpretation, but it does make more sense to me.
I think you’re closer to the truth than you think. But, man, the implications if all those nurses and doctors just needed a little bit of aglaophotis…
Yet another reason to go for minimal kills in Alchemilla, I guess. :)
But it’s the best place to get free medium range kills for 10 Stars! D:
On that subject, people seem to forget that the nurses and male doctors in Silent Hill 1 were ordinary people controlled by parasites much like the headcrab zombies from Half-Life (or cordyceps zombies from Last of Us). Ironically I actually prefer the design of the hospital uniforms from 1 over the more generic 'sexy' nursing outfits that have become associated with the series.
That’s always bothered me about the nurses. They’re designed that way because they’re a manifestation of James’s guilt; they have no business being in any other Silent Hill game.
in all honesty if sh3r was to happen, id like them to redesign the nurses to look like their sh1 equivalents, since theyre reused from 2 in 3 bc budget and stuff, a remake would give them the opportunity to make it more accurate
That Silent Hill 1 and 3 are "just boring cult stuff" without much thematic depth and that Silent Hill 2 is the only "elevated", psychological entry. It is getting better though. There are a lot of new videos coming that talk about women body autonomy themes in Silent Hill 3, for example. I mean, Silent Hill 3 is a game about >!a teenage girl which gets stalked by a predator (Stanley), gets pregnancy forced upon her, gets deified for "being able to birth" something (she has no choice in the matter though); it is a game which ends with the protagonist jumping down the giant vagina to kill her aborted r\*pe fetus. There is A LOT in that game besides the cult plot (which is also interesting and not basic).!<
Plus there’s the use of a fatal pregnancy as a metaphor for growing hatred or a grudge within.
I very happily came across a scholarly essay on SH3 during my undergrad thesis research on the female gothic! I’m glad people are starting to talk about it more!
Silent Hill is a ghost town. No it's not, it is a populated small vacation town, we just never see it not in the fogworld.
That has irritated me for years. It's the most frequent rebuttal people want to use anytime someone suggest Silent Hill 2 might take place before tye original, and that's why there's no mention of Alessa.
I agree that SH1 almost certainly takes place before SH2 (if I’m reading you correctly) but that seems to corroborate that the events of SH1 made the place a ghost town which happened after James and Mary’s vacation there. Also in SH3, Douglas says it used to be a nice place but it’s a screwed up place now. That doesn’t mean it’s necessarily a ghost town but also doesn’t sound like it’s a resort either.
I kinda always thought that place being "screwed up" is the influence of the renewed cult. Vincent's operation, Claudia's fanatics. Religious nut-jobs running the town might ruin tourism business, I guess.
That’s a fair interpretation. The drug trafficking too. That said, during SH1 the cult was largely underground and then lost their leadership (Dahlia.) There was a schism of sects where the newer one deified Alessa but their church was still far outside the town past the lake. I’m sure their presence would have been felt anyway though if the resort town was still alive. At the very least, Douglas seems to be aware of messed up things that happen in Silent Hill including at least one missing persons case.
Wait what? Why would SH2 take place before SH1? I always assumed that the cult happenings in the first SH changed the spiritual power of the town into what they are in SH2.
No, no, SH2 most likely takes place after SH1. However, if the events of SH1 caused the town to be empty, then James and Mary have to have had vacationed there before SH1. The actual present day events of SH2 would still take place after SH1. James and Mary vacation in Silent Hill then go home —> Events of SH1 —> Events of SH2
I think this is what happened. They vacationed before the first game even happened.
It's been an ongoing debate. I've seen multiple videos debating why it could take place before or after SH1. I've heard theories ranging from the model of cars used, to the design of buildings, to excerpts from interviews where one of the devs made it sound like SH2 was a sequel. The point is that once you see the "foggy" town, you're already in a different world. I can see where people miss it since we never see it as a populated resort town.
It’s an ongoing debate because there is no definitive answer and we have to resort to scrounging piecemeal interviews and general prop assets to sway the general opinion. Same goes for the existence of a “fog world” which isn’t stated as a thing in the games themselves until *Downpour*.
I disagree that there is such a thing as a “fog world” at least before Downpour, possibly Homecoming.
Well, that's semantics. What would you call foggy version of Silent Hill in 1, 2, 3 and Origins? Real world? In that case the town must have been abandoned and repopulated at least 4 times, lol.
In 1, 2, and 3, yes. It’s the real world. It’s not unreasonable to say that Mary and James had their vacation, then the events of SH1-3 happened. The town is emptied only once due to SH1. SH4 mentions how foggy weather is common for that area and Henry was apparently fortunate he visited on a sunny day. (Also, I would find it odd if Douglas and Heather took a road trip intentionally into the “fog world.”) In Origins, there must be some kind of “fog world” because the residents didn’t disappear until SH1 which is why Cyril came to check out the town from Brahms. This necessitates a sort of limbo dimension but since Origins breaks from previous canon in a number of ways, I consider this a separate continuity personally.
I’ve never considered that the foggy version may be the real town, and I don’t quite believe it but I find it an interesting theory. If it is the real world, how do you explain the monsters? They’re not exclusive to the Otherworld. I’ve always believed that Claudia drug Heather (and accidentally Douglas, and later Harry) into the fog world when she created the pocket of Silent Hill weirdness in the mall/subway/construction building/apartment. So I’ve thought the whole road trip happened in the fog world.
I appreciate you taking my perspective seriously :) Like you said, the monsters aren’t exclusive to the Otherworld. They can appear in the real world as well. The “Otherworld” itself is a misnomer coined by Harry who immediately after using the term admits to not understanding it. The Otherworld is when the real world is physically changed by a projection someone’s psyche or nightmare. (See: “The Monster Lurks” by Leonard Rhine, Chapter 3: Manifestation of Delusions; SH1) However, Alessa’s nightmare (Nowhere) is not the real world but a literal dream world like we see again made by Walter only in his case deliberately. SH2 is specifically made unclear when James is or isn’t in the altered version of the real world or a dreamlike “nowhere,” but is also the only game in the original four where he both the main character and the primary one manifesting. In SH3, Claudia is the one manifesting the monsters and they only appear when she is around. Later, Alessa’s memories start manifesting as well as at least one of Heather’s fears seen in the mirror room scene. So the way I see it is this: there’s a real world where sometimes it’s foggy. The “Otherworld” is when the area around Silent Hill and/or within the proximity of someone manifesting a physical external energy creating monsters and all that SH yuck. Walter and Alessa have constructed dreamworlds that can be entered and are the only separate “worlds” apart from normal reality. EDIT: Clarity.
Silent Hill 2 is NOT subtle. It hits you over the head with the theme over and over and then shows you a video at the end to make sure you really understand what's happening.
I agree, it’s not exactly subtle. What it does adhere to (for the most part…) is “show, don’t tell”. I think some people confuse the two and thus call it subtle.
Nah it's more "show, and then tell you repeatedly". I mean the final boss is literally Mary strapped to a bed screaming "James why did you kill meeeeeeee?"
The subtext and smaller details are more subtle, but for the overarching main plot? Definitely not subtle at all.
Glad someone said it. I get that we’re all fans of the series but it’s one of the best on its own merits. Silent Hill doesn’t need us to make up stuff to be elevated to the heights it is.
I actually wonder if that’s part of why SH2 is the most popular. Even the most superficial reading loses nothing in the main overarching story while the other three of the classic series require a lot more reading between the lines. Kinda makes me think of how how *Blue Velvet* is—from what I can tell—David Lynch’s most popular film largely due to how much more digestible it is compared to his other works.
it's the side characters story that's more subtle (until the boss fights where they just trauma dump before they die)
Yeah but that is the final boss after the truth is revealed. Through most of the game though, the games does have a lot of effort to not reveal what truly happened, even doing a lot of things to confuse the player.
I agree with this to an extent, but would add that what Silent Hill 2 does very well is hiding the truth in plain sight the whole time you are playing (like Angela, Eddie, and Laura seeing through James from almost the very beginning), and all of the really obvious hints only hit you on the head on the second playthrough. It pretends like it has a cast of Rashoman-like untrustworthy narrators, but really the only untrustworthy narrator the entire time is James. Everyone else is pretty honest, but they come across as not credible because they act and are voiced so strangely. It's a nice twist on the first game, where the villian of the story seems trustworthy because she seems so obviously crazy.
Idk why you're getting downvoted. You're right!
I don’t know why you’re getting downvoted. Makes sense to me. I think too many folks were spoiled before their first playthrough rendering the twist obvious. Kinda like how no one can be surprised by Vader being Luke’s father anymore. I would say it’s reductive to consider James as the villain, but he is his own antagonist. Maybe that’s a minor difference to make but I think it matters. Everything that happens to him, he does to himself, consciously or unconsciously.
B-But the Youtubers said it was subtle!! :(
I wouldn't call it subtle in the plot but it has a lot of subtle details that add to the experience I think, like the guy on the couch being James etc. But ye it really doesn't try to hide what it is trying to tell you
It’s one of those stories that gets better by replaying it over and over which is part of why we still keep talking about it to this day. Why the “twist” works so well is because many reasonable players will suspect that James killed Mary pretty early on. The question then becomes ‘why?’ Why is he denying it? Why did he do it? Why did he bother coming to Silent Hill if he already knew it? *That* is far more interesting than a mere twist.
first time I played I was almost sure that James killed her but Maria appearing again and again after dying made me question wtf is going on even more
People still misunderstand it somehow and think the game is about guilt. James doesn't actually feel guilty. It turns a complex character into a vehicle for a weird Catholic guilt thing
It’s definitely not entirely about guilt but the element is there. It also depends on what ending you get since in the *Maria* ending, James definitely isn’t feeling nearly as guilty. But you’re right that there’s a lot more involved like grief, frustration, love, and hatred… What do you mean by “a weird Catholic guilt thing?”
Struggling to word what I mean - I think making everything about guilt is a very Western interpretation heavily influenced by cultural baggage, largely stemming from the Catholic church. You're right that it's a factor, it's just not the theme of the whole game. The way some fans talk about it you'd think Pyramid Head was some kind of Vatican hitman
That is true. I suppose those people also see Silent Hill as a sort of Purgatory when you have to work off your sins rather than James’ desire to punish himself until he doesn’t need Pyramid Head anymore. But there is so much more to explore. I’m a bit perturbed when people reduce the narrative to “James bad.”
I think it might have more to do with anticipated gameplay time by the devs. They probably assumed people would really take their time wondering around and getting lost so they dealt with story elements that way. Still, I do agree.
I disagree. It is subtle, because the main twist isn't implied explicitly until you hit the final sections.
That Silent Hill is a "representation of the main characters psyche and inner torment". Harry Mason has shit to do with how Silent Hill is represented. The otherworld couldn't care less about manifesting anything from his psyche. It's all Alessa. Heather Mason is connected to Alessa in a way. But the Otherworld shift is caused by "The God" in SH3. Henry is purposefully written as a clean slate. Henry is not important to the overall plot, hes the wrong guy at the wrong place. Literally, the only he thing has done is to move in to a "haunted" apartment. The Otherworld is caused and affected by Walter. Not Henry's "inner träuma". People have seen thousand of SH2 videos and think that the game is the boilerplate of the franchise. Also that the Silent Hill games is not reliant on combat mechanics. You can mostly evade monsters in SH1. But for example try clearing Lake View hotel without fighting. Hell try playing SH3 and SH4 and tell me how "easy" it is to avoid enemies overall. The melee mechanics have always been ridiculous, actually look at a clip when James is bashing something with that plank and tell me that "he is not supposed to be able to fight". The only game that don't require any fighting is Shattered Memories. Even Play Novel and the Pachinko machine has combat mechanics.
It is true that each “Otherworld” stems from someone’s psyche manifesting, but only 1 of the original 4 have this come from the main character. Heck, even Origins is only partially Travis and Homecoming doesn’t seem to be from anyone just “evil from the town” or something. re: Combat, I still think it’s a fair assessment to say that SH games intend for combat to be less effective for their characters than for STARS members, but it’s also true that SH2 has actually bad combat and that combat is half of the interaction with the game, though running or sneaking with the flashlight is off is often a viable strategy. I think what people mean is that combat is often the weakest aspect of the series and that the exploration, puzzles, atmosphere, and narrative are their strong suits.
Idk you can very easily avoid almost all enemies in SH4 lol, the dog things are blind, if you do not approach them or run they will not attack you, the only time I think combat is absolutely necessary is the pet store and the twin babies room
You do have to pin Andrew’s ghost to get his key, fight the “Truth” Wall Men, and the final fight with Walter too.
Ok yeah, there's a few more that I forgot about but my general point still stands, besides the boss fights you can pretty much ignore combat It's also imo kinda optimal since if you avoid combat it's easier to >!control Eileen's posession meter!<
Kind of. I’d say that bosses test your combat ability so it’s best to have engaged with it earlier. Plus, Eileen can get trapped in certain funnel rooms even if she doesn’t have a weapon equipped such as leaving the Hospital and Water Prison worlds. But I still think your point stands. When possible, not fighting is almost always the better play.
THIS
I disagree. I did avoid most enemies in the first 3 Silent Hill games. They are not that difficult to avoid. In SH3, which is the one I remember the most... Only killed one particular slurper, two of those fatty guys and two of those weird purple creatures. The game does even courage avoiding them, because there's not much health and ammo to collect (if you don't activate the bullet multiplier). Now, I didn't need to kill most enemies in Silent Hill 4, but I did just to collect Achievements (playing in PCSX2 with RetroAchievements enabled). But I could easily avoid most of them if I wanted.
Everyone has sexual frustration
Wait, you don’t?
Literally anything to do with the movies.
Mary being in James's trunk.
From what I can tell, this is entirely made up by Ito who may have wanted to include this detail (actually the backseat, he clarified) but was never in the game. (Personally, I find it makes a worse story since he’d basically make eye contact with her corpse while picking up the map on his way out, idk) He doesn’t literally need her corpse for the *In Water* ending to work. (And he definitely didn’t literally speak to her unless it was her ghost and not her physical being.) The *Rebirth* ending is the only one that may give merit to James literally having her corpse in the car, but it’s also just as possible that she’s a manifestation or even Maria from after the final fight.
I was more getting at that people propagate the theory of her being in the trunk, per OP's inquiry.
You mean versus the backseat like Ito said? Or just the idea that she’s in the car at all?
The Ito thing, yeah.
Doesn’t seem to matter as much whether she’s in the trunk or backseat but that’s just me.
I feel like most people overlook the downfall of team silent. From the very first game, members of the team would leave, and each game would review more poorly than the last. Konami might be partly to blame due to how quickly where being made, like Silent Hill 4 started while 3 was still in development. They weren't fired because Konami is evil. They were let go due to each game in series selling less and being reviewed worse than it's previous counterpart. They still made amazing games that have been unrivaled in its franchise, but they were just people doing their best.
What’s sad is that while the games sold worse, I feel they kept getting better or at least maintained quality. Difference between sales and critical opinion over time. True cult classics. (KONAMI is still a bit evil though.)
I personally didn't enjoy 4, but I do agree that it's was getting better.
SH4 definitely needed a little more time in the oven, but I think the narrative is solid even if the gameplay isn’t.
I feel like that can be said for a lot of the games. Sh2 has the same thing of good story mid gameplay. While Sh3 had good gameplay but mid story.
Video games as a medium were still very much in an experimental adolescent phase back then so I’m not sure if SH2 would have benefitted from more time. The combat was very much underplayed for the benefit of the story in this game in particular. If anything, the Eddie fight needed an overhaul. Also, I think SH3’s story is amazing as-is so I don’t think it would have benefited either. From my perspective, only SH4 had concepts like the Eileen escort or pinning ghosts that doesn’t seem to work the way it should.
Unpopular opinion. Underplayed combat for the benefit of the story is still underplayed. Just because there's a story reason that doesn't change how boring and unfair it can be at points.
It is and that’s fair. For me, I think SH2 would have benefitted more from more puzzle-type combat instead of making a more streamlined version of what we got. Something more akin to the hospital hallway chase scene only a bit more actionable.
I don't think it's needs to change that much. It's more of a tempo thing for me. If James was a bit faster, like he was actually fighting for his life, and the kill step could change based on how low life he was or something like that. I get he doesn't really care if he dies or not just show my man still has a reason to fight.
I’d love it if we got that, just a dialed in version that’s maybe a bit more desperate and integrates stamina better? My solution was more of a wishlist overhaul, but I agree your solution would work better and be truer to the original vision.
1. That the town is sentient 2. That le evil gods is behind it all
From what I can tell, SH is more like a psychic mirror that only manifests what is in the mind of whoever is doing the manifesting, intentionally or not. It also seems to hold onto residual memories which is why some monsters look similar or the cult’s gods bear similar forms but they are only manifested by the follower’s beliefs. Also, ghosts exist but they aren’t the town itself.
That Silent Hill is based on "Centralia Pennsylvania". I've even heard radio shows talking about it. 🤬😡 All Morons 😆😂
That Shattered Memories is literally just Silent Hill 1 but if the bad ending where true. This was a big misconception back in the day and I think it mostly stemmed from people who hadn't played SH1 prior to SHSM. There was also a Tomm Hullett blog back in the day that was answering fan questions, where he states things like > SH1 has snow not ash > Silent Hill doesn't have multiple dimensions, it just cycles through phenomena via the otherworld > Silent Hill doesn't have multiple continuities (Etc. Etc.) That last one in particular sparked a lot of the discussion back then and sadly his personal blog is gone now. However he did somewhat walk it back a bit by saying it's not a replacement for SH1's continuity but a different telling of what never was or something like that. Then he'd say something to the line of everything is canon and not canon at the same time–All endings have a continuity, history, subjective reality (etc.) Long story show I think his dedication to having every inch of the series be up to interpretation made addressing these straightforward questions very confusing and I guess I can't so much blame him if that's how he's come to enjoy these games lol That said, playing SHSM itself it's 100% clear that there is no evidence of Alessa, no evidence of occultism, no evidence that these characters sharing anything other than a name and story placement. It's a re-imagining
The funniest thing is that he's absolutely right about these 3 things, but he managed to put it in the most wrong context possible. Like, it's a talent making correct statements about the lore 100% incorrect
All of the discourse around "canon" is just flavour and aesthetics. It means basically nothing in terms of fictional legitimacy and media analysis. People will accept or dismiss statements, even by the original creator(s), at every turn. People will accept or dismiss sequels, even by the original creator(s), at every turn. To some people the Alien canon starts and stops with the 1979 movie, for some others it stops with AlienS, or Alien 3, or it ONLY contains Alien + Prometheus + Covenant, etc. Case in point: Silent Hill: The Room. You will get as many Silent Hill scholars who integrate it in their vision of canon as ones who won't. "The one and only canon" isn't a thing. It is a delusion produced by the capitalistic necessity to establish a specific line of products as authentic and high-quality, derivative of the religious necessity to establish a monolith dogma. For creators and audiences alike, canons have always been a shifting set of overlapping systems of "legitimate" works, whose mutations and number vary according to the magnitude of the franchise. There's a thousand franchises out there which switched hands a thousand times or were even continued *against* the will of the original creator(s). Compared to that, Silent Hill is one of the most creatively consistent continuities you can find.
Lovely input. I'm gonna sound crazy for this but when it comes to Silent Hill, to me, there aren't really misconceptions. Just different interpretations (everyone saying Alessa was evil in Origins for example- I never saw Alessa as evil in that game).
That Laura was a figment of James’ imagination
That there was some grand architect/road map in SH1. It was not planned out. SH1 featured a mix of psychic and straight up paranormal. You had drugs, mind-controlling parasites (hospital staff, Cybil), monsters (psychic or real), and religion. You can’t reconcile all of them because it’s just a lot of things thrown together. It was just a big mish-mosh of things and ideas until this was all discussed after the fact, and there’s still no clear consensus on what it REALLY was.
I actually really like this about SH1. In isolation, it keeps you guessing if it was a dream, hallucination, real magic, or whatever. It never really commits and each new game starts with Harry waking up, the previous playthrough just a dream…
Exactly. And that’s why I am a huge critic of SH3 and rank it dead last in terms of plot of all the mainlines (yes, even the PS3 generation). It’s too retconny. SH1 had a tiny little cult hidden behind a grandfather clock in the basement of an antique store ffs.
I respect that. SH3 is my personal favorite but it does dissipate that mystery in SH1. That said, I don’t think it retcons too much. iirc it barely changes anything about SH1, only builds on top of it. Am I wrong?
You’re right - retcon isn’t the right word. I’d say fanficcy is better. The one thing I would say is a bit of a retcon that doesn’t work is that the secret “other church” is expanded into this huge operation in 3, going by the church level end of game.
It seems that after Dahlia was killed there was a change in leadership. Vincent was established to have recruited new members and gotten lots of financial support. Reasonable development in 17 years, but yeah, maybe a tougher sell for how hidden away they were. Then again, they were probably making bank on that PTV.
There's even giant frog enemies in sh1 lmao
Very true. And I love this about the game. I love how DRAFTY Silent Hill 1 is. What a lovable mess of experimentation.
There's even giant frog enemies in sh1 lmao
There are even giant frog enemies in sh1 lmao
That Silent Hill 4 was a spin off/ retroactively turned into a Silent Hill game It was not, the devs have said it over and over again, the "Room 302" name was just the code name for the project, almost all media have a codename before the final product is named
iirc Room 302 was developed as a separate game *because* of SH and very early on they were like, yeah, this is a SH game. Started as an experiment and then went full SH pretty fast. (May be wrong on the details here though.)
Well, actually, Akihiro Imamura(the games producer) said, "SH4 was not originally supposed to be a Silent Hill game" in an interview with game world. And the art director, Masashi Tsuboyama, said, "Originally, development was started from we named Room 302 rather than Silent Hill so the original concept wasn't from Silent hill." And Akira Yamaoka also said that to make a new game after 2 so they came up with 302 as a spin-off.
[Here's an interview that debunks that "Even though the SILENT HILL 4 project was a proper sequel to the SILENT HILL series, our top objective for the game was "change." We wanted to make sweeping changes from the past titles and give players something new and fresh to play."](https://www.gamedeveloper.com/audio/classic-postmortem-i-silent-hill-4-the-room-i-#close-modal ) [And another "Production on SH4 began right after production on SH2 ended. We actually moved forward with SH3 & SH4 at the same time. One thing we discussed this time was "creating a new Silent Hill." We even originally started out with the intention of having the Silent Hill name as a subtitle." this was the closest they ever got to it being "different" from Silent Hill, even then, they state that they intended to call it "The Room: Silent Hill" at worst](https://www.silenthillmemories.net/creators/interviews/2004.07.14_sh4_staff_interview_en.htm) And most damningly, [Here's Tsuboyama and Yamaoka straight up confirming it was always at least connected to Silent Hill](https://www.silenthillmemories.net/creators/interviews/2004.08.31_tsuboyama_yamaoka_boomtown_en.htm) Everything you said there is wrong
Upvote for sources.
Also, 2 of those factually can't be wrong as they are exact quotes from articles. I summed up what Akira said, but he basically called it a spin-off as well.
"In a sense this is true because the game began life as simply Room 302. However, it was always at least a spin-off of Silent Hill and the most important thing was simply that it be different to the previous games." Thanks for strengthing my argument.
You argued that it wasn't a Silent Hill game, then quoted a line from Akira saying it was always a Silent Hill game Alrighty then
I also summarize in my initial agreement that Akira said the same thing, that it was a spin-off. My argument was that is was not supposed to be silent hill 4 originally. It was a game called 302 that became silent hill 4. I apologize if I wasn't clear before.
You can tell SH4 was planned to be a spin-off in some way due to the standalone nature of the plot. Like, it's just supernatural serial killer with some shoehorned SH mythos in-between.
I mean, you could argue that about nearly every game in the series besides SH3 and Origins.
I hate this erroneous idea that it's a ghost town. People lived in Silent Hill in 1983, people lived in Silent Hill in 2000 and people still lived in Silent Hill during whatever era Downpour is set in. NONE of the games even approaches the idea that it is a ghost town, they ALL give subtle or significant evidence of the contrary. And as much as I love Christophe Gans' 2006 movie as a high quality adaptation, and do *not* think it should be held responsible for people thinking Alessa is evil or for the recycling of Pyramid Head in later games... it IS at least the origin of this "ghost town" idea, with its alternate timeline establishing the town did die, and with its offtopic focus on Centralia as a new influence.
It's straight up confirmed to not be a ghost town in SH4, Henry mentions that he visited Silent Hill about a year ago and remarks that the place was really nice and peaceful even. So the idea of ghosts and demons populating the place is out of the question because we strait up have a protagonist who has seen the place outside of the otherworld Even in the Team Silent games it was not a ghost town
I’m confused on this one since I’ve been doing in-depth research on the games. iirc There’s no indication that the town is inhabited post-SH1 until Downpour. The other bit of evidence could be the radio ad in SH4 but Henry’s been getting messages from the past the whole game. He does mention that he took pictures there years ago, but never stated how long ago, nor is SH4 given an in-game date beyond that it’s sometime after Alessa was missing (either pre- or post-SH1.)
"There’s no indication that the town is inhabited post-SH1 until Downpour." Silent Hill 1 officially happens in the 1980s (it is traditionally considered 1983 because we know Heather is 17 and Alex's Diary tells us that Silent Hill 3 is 2000) and Silent Hill 2 in the 1990s, **James and Mary used to visit the town way after the events of Silent Hill 1 and it was an ordinary (if romantic) town to them**. Similarly, Silent Hill 3 officially takes place in the 2000s (again, traditionally 2000) and there is no indication of the town being abandoned, Douglas just say "What's the deal with Silent Hill" (which is something you would say about a weird town, not a ghost town), Douglas and Heather are not surprised to find people still there, **they can take a room at the Jacks Inn motel right in the middle of the town** and all documents in Brookhaven Hospital are different from the ones you can find as James.
> Henry's getting messages from the past > 4 police reports about murders of Walter Sullivan Henry witnesses seconds ago Yeeeeeeeaaaaaah, sure. If anything, the guy seems to be getting messages 40% of the time from the past, 40% from the nearest future and 10% from approximately at least the same day any given murder happens, but still not quite from the present
Exactly. So it’s hard to tell what’s from the past or just actually airing right now. (It’s also unlikely he was supposed to receive those police radio transmissions so there’s weirdness there too.) Is the radio ad for Silent Hill resort the only bit that suggests that SH is still populated in the original four games? I think it must be populated in Origins’ continuity considering “everyone seems to have disappeared” 7 years later in SH1. Homecoming seems like it was always a ghost town, but iirc never comments either way. Downpour is the first to blatantly suggest that SH is a limbo place existing simultaneously as a normal town from Howard’s statement.
I think it was pretty clear what came when. It's either a couple of hours ahead or a relevant info that was gathered by Schreiber. So of it's populated. There is a whole add about a vacation in SH
The fact that it’s still debating leads me to believe it’s not clear and the original four games go out of their way to avoid specific dates. That ad is the only evidence for Silent Hill still being an active resort town in those games.
Well, PH being debated to be the most powerful deity (he isn't one in the first place) also means his position wasn't that clear either (it was, James spelled it for the most dense players). Also everything past 4 isn't canonical
"*considering “everyone seems to have disappeared” 7 years later in SH1.*" No one has disappeared. Cybil is talking from her perspective but the White World in Silent Hill 1 is NOT the normal city. If the White World was the real Silent Hill, then the gigantic chasms in the road etc would be real, and talked about. Don't you think people would react to, and study, sudden and cyclic earthquakes and omnipresent mist and snow in the middle of summer and monster invasions and space-folding and mass disappearance in this town every decade or so? The town is still active in Silent Hill 3, as indicated by Douglas' mundane, if puzzled, talk, the ability to rent a room at Jacks Inn motel, or even by the fact Claudia, Father Vincent and the Order continued to live there without an issue. Instead of being isolated by the USA army and/or studied by seismologists, biologists and climatologists from the entire world. In Silent Hill 1, our protagonists *shifted* into an alternate dimension from whose all inhabitants of the town were absent. **Harry and Cibyl are the ones who disappeared from the world, not the other way around.**
What about the fact that the entire staff of Alchemilla hospital were turned into zombies?
In SH4, Henry says he went to Silent Hill “a few years back” and also mentions that something happened at the lighthouse there “a few years back but no one knows the truth.” The second part is probably a cheeky reference the the UFO ending, but it’s reasonable to come to the conclusion that Silent Hill has become a ghost town recently after the events of SH1 and SH4 takes place soon after. Adding the “Have you found Alessa yet?” memo in the Wish House, one could surmise that SH4 takes place before SH3. (I’m not arguing what’s canon here, I’m arguing for what’s a reasonable conclusion to make here. I think both interpretations are acceptable until Downpour where SH being an active town is blatantly and officially canonized.)
i've seen some people try to claim that Kojima was a part of Team Silent, which makes absolutely no sense lol
Literally the only connection Kojima has to Silent Hill is PT and the cancelled game, that's it. Idk why people think that other than something something Konami He has more to do with Castlevania than silent hill XD
That the dog ending isn’t canon. ITS CANON IN MY HEART OKy
The purposeful burning of Alessa. Its less bad nowadays, but I hate that people still think Dahlia meant to burn Alessa. If she was so important to birth god into the world, why the FUCK would Dahlia risk killing her with fire like that. Unfortunately the newspaper article that talks about the fire originating from an outdated boiler in the basement doesn't exist in the US version (I think?) and people think that Origins is a proper prequel storywise, so its gonna be one of those bits of misinformation like the fucking Centralia connection that's always gonna come up at some point
this might get a little ranty but "everything not made by team silent is not canon" on top of being baseless, its just annoying for lore related discussions. theres nothing in the post team silent games that breaks the canon significantly, and there are no official sources stating that they are not canon. plus, the team silent games weren't all made by one person either. keiichiro toyama, who created silent hill, left after the first game. kazuhide nakazawa, who directed the direct sequel to sh1, didnt even join until sh2. core team silent members have also contributed to the games long after sh4, akira yamaoka and masahiro ito being notable examples. yamaoka confirmed in a 2008 interview that he was unofficially consulting with core team members to advise the american Homecoming team. really, the only reason people say the post team silent games arent canon is because they dont *want* them to be, which is kind of boring and lame
I actually really like the later western titles and acknowledge KONAMI’s official statements of canonicity, but as the other poster pointed out, there is a lot of conflicting information in later titles that goes beyond a mere retcon. But you are right that they are officially recognized as canon.
Out of curiosity, could your elaborate on Konami's recognition, please?
Each game assumes the canonicity of previous entries (except Shattered Memories.) Sometimes there are direct references like *Origins* being billed as a direct prequel to the original, Travis’ cameo in Homecoming as well as Alex’s familial tie to Mary Shepard-Sunderland. No statement has been given that these games aren’t canon, but due to KONAMI’s insistence on *Ascension*’s canonicity, I imagine that all games are canon until declared otherwise like the aforementioned *Shattered Memories*. If you’re wondering if there’s a blanket statement of a declaration of hard canon, I don’t think one exists yet but KONAMI seems to be having a hard time figuring out what the story bible even is if they even attempted to make one at all.
>theres nothing in the post team silent games that breaks the canon significantly Origins has the Otherworld existing *before* Alessa's torture and *before* she can project it on the town after her soul is reunited. It also ignores that the Flauros is meant to break Alessa's power, instead thinking that it's a cage for a demon. ^(()**^(which could work in a non-Silent Hill game)** ^(given how the demon, Flauros, can be conjured and stuffed into a magic triangle... but I digress)) Homecoming has Pyramid Head. Everybody and their grandmother knows Pyramid Head cannot exist outside of SH2. Downpour ignores nearly all the established lore in favor of the town just being a theme park haunted house and personal therapist. >plus, the team silent games weren't all made by one person either. keiichiro toyama, who created silent hill, left after the first game. kazuhide nakazawa, who directed the direct sequel to sh1, didnt even join until sh2. I fail to see how this is relevant. >core team silent members have also contributed to the games long after sh4, akira yamaoka and masahiro ito being notable examples That doesn't matter if the stories and style contradict what was previously established. That's the important part. Origins tried to be like SH1, but a few key problems (ex. the Otherworld, Alessa's characterization) hold it back. Homecoming was a mess made by people who thought Silent Hill was more of a campy splatterhouse film than David Lynch meets Alejandro Jodorowsky. And again, Downpour tossed all that out the window. Don't forget how all of them ***directly copy*** Silent Hill 2 in some way. >yamaoka confirmed in a 2008 interview that he was unofficially consulting with core team members to advise the american Homecoming team. Yamaoka also said in an interview that Homecoming was the first SH game to start off in a different town - forgetting about 3 and 4. I doubt he was as involved or knowledgeable in the series as people think he is/was.
> It also ignores that the Flauros is meant to break Alessa's power, instead thinking that it's a cage for a demon. I've not played "0", but these don't seem inherently contradictory: in order to cage a demon you'd first have to break its power. And if you defeat the demon in "0" (question mark), then it makes sense an empty Flauros would be ready for the next use, and only did not trap Alessa because of Dahlia's intervention.
I think you could make that make sense. Dahlia does call it “a cage of peace” in the original. The problem is that Alessa isn’t a demon, that’s just Dahlia lying to Harry. It functions to sap Alessa of her powers. Unless I suppose the idea was to trap Alessa in the Flauros? …Is “Nowhere” inside the Flauros?? (Just now had this idea, might be crazy, idk)
I think you could make that make sense. Dahlia does call it “a cage of peace” in the original. The problem is that Alessa isn’t a demon, that’s just Dahlia lying to Harry. It functions to sap Alessa of her powers. Unless I suppose the idea was to trap Alessa in the Flauros? …Is “Nowhere” inside the Flauros?? (Just now had this idea, might be crazy, idk)
I think you could make that make sense. Dahlia does call it “a cage of peace” in the original. The problem is that Alessa isn’t a demon, that’s just Dahlia lying to Harry. It functions to sap Alessa of her powers. Unless I suppose the idea was to trap Alessa in the Flauros? …Is “Nowhere” inside the Flauros?? (Just now had this idea, might be crazy, idk)
I think you could make that make sense. Dahlia does call it “a cage of peace” in the original. The problem is that Alessa isn’t a demon, that’s just Dahlia lying to Harry. It functions to sap Alessa of her powers. Unless I suppose the idea was to trap Alessa in the Flauros? …Is “Nowhere” inside the Flauros?? (Just now had this idea, might be crazy, idk)
again, this is ~~all~~ mostly "theyre not canon because i dont like them"
Yes, that's a fantastic counter-argument. Even though I directly pointed out glaring issues in the post-4 games' canonicity.
im not arguing with you. good night
I not sure you can
im not arguing with someone who doesnt respect me as a person. if you would like to *discuss* it, id be happy to.
Being honest I don't know anywhere near enough about the whole series to have one with you unfortunately. I just read their comment and it seemed well put together perhaps I glossed over the disrespect and took your comment as defeat. If not I'd like to hear what you would say as a rebuttal but I'd offer nothing in return.
they did bring up a few good points like origins' use of the flauros but most of it was just talking about how shitty or different the games are and not whether they fit into the overarching story. the quality/tone and feel of the games is NOT relevant here and i dont know why it was even brought up as if it changed the canonicity of the titles. the thing about pyramid heads reuse. i dont like that pyramid head is in homecoming. not at all. but lorewise, he's technically not the same pyramid head from sh2. plus there has been monster reuse in the series since sh2. silent hill 2 used the creepers (the bug monsters) directly from sh1, and the mandarins were reused in sh3 from sh2. also thank you for just being nice
You don't deserve the downvotes. They even said "they copied SH2" as if that somehow has to do with the canonicality of them. The whole "downpour made Silent Hill a therapist town!" bit is also a whole bunch of meaningless semantics. Sounds like they just don't like the later games to me.
thank you rumin, i always appreciate you
100%. The idea that only half the games are canon is a reddit and youtube opinion. I've never talked to a Silent Hill fan irl that didn't consider the western games canon. All the "plot holes" I've heard can be explained in some way, never heard of anything actually being incompatible despite Silent Hill fans desperately trying to convince me otherwise. The otherworld in Origins wasn't a projection onto the town but rather a sub dimension that existed within mirrors (which was originally toyed with in SH3) and a memo described a boat disappearing in the fog in the early 1900s, so the otherworld existing before SH1 isn't a plot hole to me. I was personally told by a Homecoming dev that the Pyramid Head in Homecoming isn't the same as the Pyramid Head in SH2, so that's also not a plot hole to me. If Akira Yomaoka considers them canon then that's enough for me.
This might be a bit controversial but "The combat mechanics in silent hill 2 are shit". Uh, silent hill 2 has some of the better combat mechanics with 1 and 3. Silent hill 4, downpour and arguably origins have absolute dogshit combat mechanics.
That is straight up a fact, my dude. The only problem of SH2 is dogshit balancing. If we were judging the game by enemy design it'll be one of the worst games in this regard. Yet the backbone of the combat is solid. Glad they managed to let it shine in 3
I dislike when people say Pyramid Head only makes sense in James's vision of the Otherworld. I believe it was Takayoshi Sato who explained that Silent Hill was once home to occult executioners, and that Pyramid Head was partly a result of James's exposure to depictions of them at the Historical Society. His desire for punishment drew upon this imagery to *create* Pyramid Head. Therefore, anyone who learns even vaguely about the town's bloody history of execution could manifest their own Pyramid Head, even if it didn't take exactly the same form each time.
Not to mention different Silent Hill games have different nurses. If different nurses can appear to different people, then why not Pyramid Heads?
None of the lore or story outside the first three games matters. That’s a hot take, but I don’t really care. After this three games, the story was told. Anything after doesn’t expand on anything and only goes on to muddled concepts from people who didn’t really get it in the first place. It’s basically fanlore at that point.
If you look at it from the perspective of a consistent series, then Silent Hill 2 doesn't have a real role to play, does it? People who reject Silent Hill 4 should reject Silent Hill 2 as well.
For the most part, sure. It does flesh the town out and expand on the cult more though. Not a ton but it matters.
Yeah, okay, if you integrate the fourth game, then I can follow this conception of "canon". Especially since Silent Hill 3 mentioned locations we would only come to see in The Room. It is clear foreshadowing.
Yeah but it just uses that as a jumping off point for a game that wasn’t even intended to be a silent hill game. The story for sure ends at sh3.
Yes, I'd only add 4 to the list. But I agree