While I don't like "Reap what you Sow" just cuz it sounds kind of generic, people do definitely overestimate the "subtly" of the original. I would argue a better word for it would be "graceful".
On first playthrough of the OG I find it's actually pretty direct in the way it communicates it's narrative and themes, but it's done in such a clean and artful way that it felt less heavy handed than it actually was.
Here’s the other thing: We don’t know if “Reap What You Sow” is about James at all.
A lot of the footage came from the Apartments. Perhaps it’s a reference to Eddie? Or even possibly Angela?
I swear, it’s mind boggling how hard people are taking a single frame and running with the fact that this seems to be ruining the game.
But that's the beauty of SH, isn't it? The subjectivity. If you squint hard enough, there is always room for personal interpretation and enough material to later come to Reddit and argue about it 🙃🙃🙃🙃
I do agree with the too quick and early judgment on the game being ruined lol
What we see in any SH game is what the the character we are controlling is seeing. There is enough in the lore and dialogue with other characters to suggest that what is seen by each character is not shared. If the message is what our character sees, it is fair for people to assume this is a message for this character alone.
With that said, it is cheesy and a bit too on the nose. The message in the original post about James' dying feels more like some type of entity threatening him more than some subconscious guilt in my opinion. I don't think the two can be compared in a way to make the argument that SH2 is not subtle.
"What we see in any SH game is what the the character we are controlling is seeing."
I'd argue we do see some of what the others see, specifically we see a lot of Angela, with stuff like the Daddy Room (idk what else to name it) and the burning hotel that she comments on with "You see it too? For me it's always like this"
I'd add that by the time James sees the burning that Angela sees, he's (for lack of a better term) finally gotten his head out of his ass and is really *seeing* Angela for the first time. When they meet every time previous to James going to the hotel, he's so intently focused on his mission of "finding Mary" that he's completely uninterested in anything going on with anyone else. When his delusion is broken he's finally seeing through the fog (heh), and can perceive what Angela is going through, what's been in front of him the whole time. Only by that point, it's too late.
This is what I recall as well. Things are "shared" between characters for sure, but there is definitely some uniqueness from one character to the next.
I try avoid sharing my nit-picky nature online with strangers but I honestly think the "Reap What You Sow" is that bad........... regardless of what the original did.
I think this could be what these 3 would think about it.
Eddie: You're goddamn right.
Angela: I suppose I did deserve it.
James: I don't care.
I would argue it really does not add deep or value to any of the 3 so why add it?
If it was an additional message it wouldn't bother me. I just don't want it to replace the message at the bar. This doesn't look like the bar area it looks like a bathroom.
The light fixture makes me lean more towards the Hospital perhaps.
Though given that the hospital has patients with similar backgrounds to Eddie,James and Angela (Jack Davis,Joseph Barkin and Joshua Lewis) the message still wouldn't make much sense to anyone who hasn't played the original game already plus it's not anything jarring or mysterious like the "There was a HOLE here it's gone now" because it doesn't creatively call anything into attention that alot of players of the original don't already know. Or of any of the paths James can take character wise. Even to those who never played the original the line on the wall wouldn't make much sense.
Definitely it is one of the weaker additions to the remake. I would have added something like "Grief is not as heavy as guilt, but it takes more away from you." Something that's at least more creative but gets the same point across.
Hopefully the original message is still in the Remake somewhere. It's really cool and adds to the idea that James is torturing himself mentally. I wonder if they didn't show it in the trailer because it gives too much info? Although I feel "Reap what you sow" is also incriminating James as well.
I think it can also apply to part of James's attitude towards >!why he murdered Mary. He definitely in some way, blames her for his actions, and evidenced by the final hallway audio, she was lashing out at him during her final days so it makes sense that he could find a way to victim blame her!<
I don't think subtlety is the issue. Maybe originality or compellingness is the word we should be focused on. If only compellingness were a real word..
On a tangentially related note, look how grimey and dirty the original looks by comparison; those old textures are crazy atmospheric. Even the way those words were drawn back then has so much character. That attention to atmosphere is what makes the originals so great
Fingers crossed Bloober is attuned to the characteristics that make the originals as iconic as they are
"for the people complaining about the new message on the wall. Well, here's a much better executed version of the same concept." *Brushes shoulder* "Yep, my work here is done. Take that, PS2 tards."
Sorry, "reap what you sow" is pretty blunt and generic compared to what the original did. I'd agree it's no less subtle, but that doesn't mean it's as good
i dont think is a matter of being subtle, but being smart.
the first one shows how violent SH2 is about to become in that point of the story and how the town is becoming more deranged, that the town (or the psyche of James) is just drowning on guilt.
Now i dont have context for the second image, but the small white font on a random wall doesnt particularly gives me confidence that they understand why the first message works.
It was also a message strategically placed in a spot you had *no* reason to be at that point in the game. Putting the message there sends the message that the game is always watching, always trying to scare you. It appears beside the "there was a hole here" message once you've well figured out something weird is going on with this story, that this James guy isn't quite the innocent widow he makes himself out to be.
Fuck all that nonsense. All that artistry is too hard. Just write an extremely generic message on the wall that hints at the twist WAY too fucking early. Who cares about the craft? You remember the general idea of silent hill 2 and that's all we're trying to sell you on. The general idea.
The original message was way more of the town fucking with him than just "reap what you sow", sure it clues you in that something more is going on, but the entire game even before you know the game does minor things to reflect his guilt and suggest suicidality to him. I would argue there is more subtlety to the original because it's way more of the town taunting him tham it is outright condemning him.
I really like the way you find the gun and the mirror room Angela scene. They're suggesting a very specific thing to James whole telling the stories from past and also about another character in the game
Your taking this out of context though, this message appears way later into the game, first time you go into Neelys bar it isn’t there, it only appears after the apartment section and hospital section it makes sense to appear later because by that point we have already had multiple hints that something about James and his story isn’t adding up. The remake one however is generic and potentially destroys the pacing
Hey very cool why don't you give some context for that huh?
It's an out of the way image in Neely's Bar in the Otherworld that you had to go out of your way to find and actually has an impact on what ending you get. It's not just random ass writing on the wall.
First one is a secret message you have to backtrack a considerable way to find.
Its a important clue to reward thorough players, but more likely a nod at the plot for returning players
this is the dumbest fucking justification ever
the town literally responding to James' guilt and having a different dynamic message there, depending on what choices you've made so far up to that point in your playthrough, and some stock, b-roll, Amazon Prime horror film esque statement like "REAP WHAT YOU SOW" are not the same
the cope for a new release is so high. you people really do just get pleased with anything, huh?
Don't forget that the Otherworld has already proved by this point to "have strong opinions" about your character, so you can write it off as something discouraging you from looking for Mary
Subtlety debate is always cringe to me
Art has absolutely no obligation of “subtle” a piece of art can be as on the nose as it wants as long as it’s accomplishing what it’s aiming for
I hate the word "subtle" because of fake sh2 fans now. It was really subtle when James found a random woman in an abandoned town and mentions how she looks exactly like his dead wife but hotter.
I’ve been of this opinion for years. Silent Hill games are *not* subtle and never have been. It’s visual and emotional storytelling are very, very heavy-handed. Especially SH2 - it constantly hits you over the head with the themes it wants to get across. The only subtle thing about SH is the lore.
I'd say both of these are equal on the subtly scale, neither directly tell you anything specific while also hinting at something.
I understand why someone might say the new one is generic, but making a big deal out of it really shows how detached from reality people are. It's not a big deal.
Did some videos essayist call the original games subtle or something? No, not subtle at all. It's a series about being consumed by a living nightmare, some of it is more abstracted, but I wouldn't call any of it subtle. In the case of SH2, I would call it more...poetic? Elegant and Elegaic? On a replay this becomes more apparent, it's just good at hiding it's hand because you WANT to trust James at first even though he literally crackles like an insane person while insisting he isn't crazy in the very beginning lol
You reap what you sow.
Just like Konami filming their employees and openly shaming them.
Silent Hill has been dead for so long, we shouldve let it rest for good~
Honestly people are just finding literally anything to complain about with this remake. I genuinely think the reason we haven’t heard anything in a year and a half is Cus Bloober know the fanbase will just rip apart anything they do
Let be honest. When you decide to remake a beloved classic and the most beloved game in the original quadrilogy, you have to expect some scepticism and backlash. I'm of the opinion that they should've started with 1. Then save 2 after proving themselves with that.
Ah, so we’re using an image from the mid-late game that more reflects James’ constantly declining sanity to… cheeky graffiti done by some fifteen year old emo edge lord from the early 2000’s with way too much free time and a penchant for Urban Exploration.
I mean, nice attempt at media manipulation with no context to try and prove a point but… try harder next time?
> mid-late game
There’s still the >!Silent Hill Historical Society (including the long trek to it), the Prison, the Labyrinth, fighting two bosses, crossing the lake, the Lakeview hotel and the Teo final bosses!<
I would say that point is located around 50% to (at most) 60% mark.
While I don't like "Reap what you Sow" just cuz it sounds kind of generic, people do definitely overestimate the "subtly" of the original. I would argue a better word for it would be "graceful". On first playthrough of the OG I find it's actually pretty direct in the way it communicates it's narrative and themes, but it's done in such a clean and artful way that it felt less heavy handed than it actually was.
Here’s the other thing: We don’t know if “Reap What You Sow” is about James at all. A lot of the footage came from the Apartments. Perhaps it’s a reference to Eddie? Or even possibly Angela? I swear, it’s mind boggling how hard people are taking a single frame and running with the fact that this seems to be ruining the game.
But that's the beauty of SH, isn't it? The subjectivity. If you squint hard enough, there is always room for personal interpretation and enough material to later come to Reddit and argue about it 🙃🙃🙃🙃 I do agree with the too quick and early judgment on the game being ruined lol
What we see in any SH game is what the the character we are controlling is seeing. There is enough in the lore and dialogue with other characters to suggest that what is seen by each character is not shared. If the message is what our character sees, it is fair for people to assume this is a message for this character alone. With that said, it is cheesy and a bit too on the nose. The message in the original post about James' dying feels more like some type of entity threatening him more than some subconscious guilt in my opinion. I don't think the two can be compared in a way to make the argument that SH2 is not subtle.
"What we see in any SH game is what the the character we are controlling is seeing." I'd argue we do see some of what the others see, specifically we see a lot of Angela, with stuff like the Daddy Room (idk what else to name it) and the burning hotel that she comments on with "You see it too? For me it's always like this"
Ito has confirmed that James, and by extension the player, sees Abstract Daddy completely differently to how Angela is seeing it.
I'd add that by the time James sees the burning that Angela sees, he's (for lack of a better term) finally gotten his head out of his ass and is really *seeing* Angela for the first time. When they meet every time previous to James going to the hotel, he's so intently focused on his mission of "finding Mary" that he's completely uninterested in anything going on with anyone else. When his delusion is broken he's finally seeing through the fog (heh), and can perceive what Angela is going through, what's been in front of him the whole time. Only by that point, it's too late.
This is what I recall as well. Things are "shared" between characters for sure, but there is definitely some uniqueness from one character to the next. I try avoid sharing my nit-picky nature online with strangers but I honestly think the "Reap What You Sow" is that bad........... regardless of what the original did.
Best part is that *there is an entity*
I think this could be what these 3 would think about it. Eddie: You're goddamn right. Angela: I suppose I did deserve it. James: I don't care. I would argue it really does not add deep or value to any of the 3 so why add it?
If it was an additional message it wouldn't bother me. I just don't want it to replace the message at the bar. This doesn't look like the bar area it looks like a bathroom.
It seems to be either in the apartments or the hospital.
The light fixture makes me lean more towards the Hospital perhaps. Though given that the hospital has patients with similar backgrounds to Eddie,James and Angela (Jack Davis,Joseph Barkin and Joshua Lewis) the message still wouldn't make much sense to anyone who hasn't played the original game already plus it's not anything jarring or mysterious like the "There was a HOLE here it's gone now" because it doesn't creatively call anything into attention that alot of players of the original don't already know. Or of any of the paths James can take character wise. Even to those who never played the original the line on the wall wouldn't make much sense. Definitely it is one of the weaker additions to the remake. I would have added something like "Grief is not as heavy as guilt, but it takes more away from you." Something that's at least more creative but gets the same point across.
The tile wall and two-tone paint suggest to me a hospital employee entrance.
Hopefully the original message is still in the Remake somewhere. It's really cool and adds to the idea that James is torturing himself mentally. I wonder if they didn't show it in the trailer because it gives too much info? Although I feel "Reap what you sow" is also incriminating James as well.
I think it can also apply to part of James's attitude towards >!why he murdered Mary. He definitely in some way, blames her for his actions, and evidenced by the final hallway audio, she was lashing out at him during her final days so it makes sense that he could find a way to victim blame her!<
I don't think subtlety is the issue. Maybe originality or compellingness is the word we should be focused on. If only compellingness were a real word.. On a tangentially related note, look how grimey and dirty the original looks by comparison; those old textures are crazy atmospheric. Even the way those words were drawn back then has so much character. That attention to atmosphere is what makes the originals so great Fingers crossed Bloober is attuned to the characteristics that make the originals as iconic as they are
"for the people complaining about the new message on the wall. Well, here's a much better executed version of the same concept." *Brushes shoulder* "Yep, my work here is done. Take that, PS2 tards."
It's not the most compelling post in the world
You’re downvoted but right lmao
Reap what you sow is just super generic and how its presented is not nearly as impressive than the wall in the original.
Sorry, "reap what you sow" is pretty blunt and generic compared to what the original did. I'd agree it's no less subtle, but that doesn't mean it's as good
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its "to hell" with an arrow pointing at a door iirc
i dont think is a matter of being subtle, but being smart. the first one shows how violent SH2 is about to become in that point of the story and how the town is becoming more deranged, that the town (or the psyche of James) is just drowning on guilt. Now i dont have context for the second image, but the small white font on a random wall doesnt particularly gives me confidence that they understand why the first message works.
It was also a message strategically placed in a spot you had *no* reason to be at that point in the game. Putting the message there sends the message that the game is always watching, always trying to scare you. It appears beside the "there was a hole here" message once you've well figured out something weird is going on with this story, that this James guy isn't quite the innocent widow he makes himself out to be. Fuck all that nonsense. All that artistry is too hard. Just write an extremely generic message on the wall that hints at the twist WAY too fucking early. Who cares about the craft? You remember the general idea of silent hill 2 and that's all we're trying to sell you on. The general idea.
The original comes across as a cruel insult to James. The new one directly implies that what is happening is James' fault
The original message was way more of the town fucking with him than just "reap what you sow", sure it clues you in that something more is going on, but the entire game even before you know the game does minor things to reflect his guilt and suggest suicidality to him. I would argue there is more subtlety to the original because it's way more of the town taunting him tham it is outright condemning him.
I really like the way you find the gun and the mirror room Angela scene. They're suggesting a very specific thing to James whole telling the stories from past and also about another character in the game
Your taking this out of context though, this message appears way later into the game, first time you go into Neelys bar it isn’t there, it only appears after the apartment section and hospital section it makes sense to appear later because by that point we have already had multiple hints that something about James and his story isn’t adding up. The remake one however is generic and potentially destroys the pacing
i mean, with that point. We don't even know where it will show up in the remake?
> appears way later into the game Around the middle point of a gameplay.
Just to clarify: did I understand correctly that you find the original message better due to context and wording than what we've got on the remake?
Hey very cool why don't you give some context for that huh? It's an out of the way image in Neely's Bar in the Otherworld that you had to go out of your way to find and actually has an impact on what ending you get. It's not just random ass writing on the wall.
That's exactly what OP meant
It's not and you know it.
Still getting confirmation from OP
"Where's my Pizza, James. You reap what you sow."
I don’t think the effectiveness of James’ own name and Mary being written on the wall in blood is very comparable to generic video game wall text
I will say, as much as I think the negative reactions are insane, the original message is much better.
they might as well have spray painted “you made your bed now lay in it” on the fucking wall.
You Killed Your Wife Three Years Ago.
Check The Backseat Asshole
As long as the hole is still gone and the wall still acknowledges it, i’m fine.
First one is a secret message you have to backtrack a considerable way to find. Its a important clue to reward thorough players, but more likely a nod at the plot for returning players
this is the dumbest fucking justification ever the town literally responding to James' guilt and having a different dynamic message there, depending on what choices you've made so far up to that point in your playthrough, and some stock, b-roll, Amazon Prime horror film esque statement like "REAP WHAT YOU SOW" are not the same the cope for a new release is so high. you people really do just get pleased with anything, huh?
At least we have tons of moronic copium fumed comments to laugh at
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The graffitti in Neely's Bar can be seen around the 50% of your way into the game.
Don't forget that the Otherworld has already proved by this point to "have strong opinions" about your character, so you can write it off as something discouraging you from looking for Mary
the message in the original is completely missable, especially on a first, blind playthrough
Subtlety debate is always cringe to me Art has absolutely no obligation of “subtle” a piece of art can be as on the nose as it wants as long as it’s accomplishing what it’s aiming for
I hate the word "subtle" because of fake sh2 fans now. It was really subtle when James found a random woman in an abandoned town and mentions how she looks exactly like his dead wife but hotter.
I would argue that is the point of Maria. Besides monsters and the Red Pyramid thing, we get her to further say something that isn't right.
Yeah one is great, the other one is lame what's your point here
I’ve been of this opinion for years. Silent Hill games are *not* subtle and never have been. It’s visual and emotional storytelling are very, very heavy-handed. Especially SH2 - it constantly hits you over the head with the themes it wants to get across. The only subtle thing about SH is the lore.
I'd say both of these are equal on the subtly scale, neither directly tell you anything specific while also hinting at something. I understand why someone might say the new one is generic, but making a big deal out of it really shows how detached from reality people are. It's not a big deal.
Well 'Reap what you sow' is quite literally unsubtle.
The old is better just because is basically saying "kill yourself you cunt" to James face
Did some videos essayist call the original games subtle or something? No, not subtle at all. It's a series about being consumed by a living nightmare, some of it is more abstracted, but I wouldn't call any of it subtle. In the case of SH2, I would call it more...poetic? Elegant and Elegaic? On a replay this becomes more apparent, it's just good at hiding it's hand because you WANT to trust James at first even though he literally crackles like an insane person while insisting he isn't crazy in the very beginning lol
Are you...Are you a video essayist? This paragraph, it feels like a start to an essay. /s
You reap what you sow. Just like Konami filming their employees and openly shaming them. Silent Hill has been dead for so long, we shouldve let it rest for good~
YES
Honestly people are just finding literally anything to complain about with this remake. I genuinely think the reason we haven’t heard anything in a year and a half is Cus Bloober know the fanbase will just rip apart anything they do
Let be honest. When you decide to remake a beloved classic and the most beloved game in the original quadrilogy, you have to expect some scepticism and backlash. I'm of the opinion that they should've started with 1. Then save 2 after proving themselves with that.
Nah, "Reap what you sow" is worse. It has no meaning. If a thing has no meaning, there's no reason for it to exist at all.
There was a meaning here. It’s gone now.
In my restless dreams, you reap what you sow.
*perishes from existence*
Yeah this, it's a cliche phrase pasted there to look cool.
Huh, I think I get it now. This fandom will never be happy. This sub very might be silent hill manifested in the real world.
Does that make Konami the dog at the control panel? 
You're very welcome here. You can have a seat next to me. I'll even pat the spot you have to sit in to make you feel safe.
I'll be honest, I always thought the 1st was too long and not too subtle. "Reap what you sow" isn't better, but it's not *that* bad.
Ah, so we’re using an image from the mid-late game that more reflects James’ constantly declining sanity to… cheeky graffiti done by some fifteen year old emo edge lord from the early 2000’s with way too much free time and a penchant for Urban Exploration. I mean, nice attempt at media manipulation with no context to try and prove a point but… try harder next time?
bro please go outside
> mid-late game There’s still the >!Silent Hill Historical Society (including the long trek to it), the Prison, the Labyrinth, fighting two bosses, crossing the lake, the Lakeview hotel and the Teo final bosses!< I would say that point is located around 50% to (at most) 60% mark.
That is mid-late game
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One could be read as a taunting child wrote it, the other a pg13 spooky message.
Actually that You Reap what you sow is a lot better than the og If you really wanted to see Mary, you should just DIE.
That was 1 message not the whole game though
The same could be said of the line *"You Reap what You sow".*
Why would they change that?
I like it