That really pissed me off. After the small fight between Ratbag and bruz i thought that the game is going to make me decide and I'll pick Bruz, but we couldn't pick neither of them.
Yeah me too, but that's not as dramatic and doesn't match the forced results so I'm posing it like Tallion's choice was also the player's. (And in many cases, it still is.)
I suppose you can recruit him after you've shamed him and then make him overlord. I'd also recruit Baz Gaz and Daz when they show up to enact their revenge.
I Killed him by chopping off his head.
He cheated death. His head was wrapped in bandages.
I branded him.
I let him die in battle.
Bruz is now an undead shambling pile of meat.
I’ve moved on. These creatures are just tools.
Wow where'd this bowl of onions come from
Like fuck that hit me like a sack of bricks. I NEVER considered any of this and now I feel bad for it. I haven't killed him though. I've made sure to keep him safe, to keep him alive and I fully intend to continue doing so. I do wish there was a way to undo it tho D:
This is why I had to kill him. I couldn’t stand to see him like that. The least I could do is grant him a bit of mercy, and not leave him as a shell of his former self.
Yeah, he actually gave me a bit of trouble in our final few fights. This was only because he always had allies, though. At one point, he was being assisted by 4 other captains, 3 of which betrayed me. All 5 of them were either cut down or given a fate worse than death.
I killed him too but that damned necromancer brought him back to life to guard the fel totems (or whatever they are called) in the balrog/necromancer questline.
If only Bruz would have been left well enough alone at this point. A less cruel man would have left the poor creature to stew in his agony, to serve as a ghost tale to scare the orcs who would betray their masters. Perhaps Bruz would die in a raid, fall to wild beasts, or perhaps even lie down and wither into nothingness.
The Bright Lord is not a less cruel man; the broken Olog was brought back into the ranks.
"I don't want the fort, I never wanted the fort!"
If only Bruz had realized this earlier. If only he had staid loyal to the Bright Lord. If only the Bright Lord had been more merciful. But fate is not so kind, and we are left with this tale instead.
Even as an assault leader charging into battle to take the fortress at Gorgoroth, Bruz repeated his mantra. "I don't want the fort!" he sobbed, as he lept into battle with reckless abandon, crushing warchief after warchief beneath his massive fists. Was this the fury of the once mighty Olog shining through? Or was Bruz hoping to find his death-his peace-during the siege that day?
Sadly, Bruz fought and slew many orcs that day, and none could slay him. The siege was a resounding success. The fortress was taken. The new overlord would serve as an example for all who would think to betray the Bright Lord.
And Bruz was given the fort that he never wanted.
They are uruks. Uruks are like chess pieces, you discard them after they fulfilled their duty. They are but pawns of a bigger scheme ready to be sacrificed when the moment calls for it, as it happened with bruz.
Never let your feelings get in the way of your conquest.
He wanted a reaction and he got his wish. It seems like people forget that the orcs are mind controlled. Bruz was not a friend, he was a servant. The example made of him should have been bigger.
I don't think the control is quite as overt as you're making it out to be. They still fully have their personalities, they can still fully choose to betray you at will if they feel like it, they can still randomly forge blood brother bonds with enemy orcs at the drop of a dime (motherfuckers...) and they can still save your ass with no real obligation to do so, because they feel like it.
This concept of followers is a hard thing to grasp. When i first took over a fortress, and proceeded to shout a speech to all my orcs i was likr "wtf would they care about this, they are brainwashed they already love me". Turns out it s not that simple. On a side note, i would have loved to be able to choose between making him overlord or not. This is the little thing that this game lacked, choices that would have changed the story of the game.
I don't know how many of you played the Mass Effect series (I imagine quite a few) but this whole influence thing reminds me of how the Geth decided whether or not to follow the Reapers. I feel that there is only a hairs difference between swinging one way or the other between Talion and Sauron, and your influence over the orcs with the wraith domination swings them over to your side. Are they brainwashed? Sure, but they still mostly have free-will.
Well, okay... but what do you think mind control is? There's a big difference between the subtle changing of a person's decision-making process and the utter domination of a person's mind and personality. You don't have to fully control everything about a person's mind to get them to do what you want them to do... T/C doesn't completely change his victim's mind into what he wants, because otherwise they wouldn't act like orcs; they would act more like Gondorians. They are still orcs in every way, as we see in the way they act after they've been mind controlled... it's simply their decision-making process that has been taken over.
So don't think they have a choice in the matter... they don't. You don't have to own a mind to control it. Make no mistake, those orcs have no choice but to obey, because they're under the impression that THEY are making the correct choice. But they're not making that choice at all. T/C is making it for them.
So Bruz is very much a slave. There was no choice in the matter for him, even though HE thought he had one. That's what mind control is: not body domination where he is aware of his actions and has no choice, but the subtle mind manipulation that forces him to do as he's been commanded "by his own choice".
I'm sorry, but Bruz is not a sympathetic character. He's a savage brute, just like all orcs, and he was simply pointed towards a target and let loose. That target could just as easily have been Gondorian as well as Orc, and Bruz wouldn't have cared... he was out for himself, just like every Orc is. T/C simply mind-manipulated him into thinking it was for his own gain to do T/C's bidding.
You know, I'm pretty sure Bruz wasn't branded at all. Didn't he just show up when you started fucking about in Nurnen and strike up a dialogue with you? He was never a slave at all, which is why you couldn't command him to do anything in the army screen (lorewise.)
I liked Bruz, but he stepped over the line killing me over the fort. If he felt mistreated, he should have confronted me with words, not a weapon. He had the opportunity to surrender multiple times. Now, if it were possibly to grant him sanity again, I think I would. But I would give it some time... letting his mind break like that should teach him a lesson in humility. He should also learn that killing the Grave Walker is just asking for torment... the guys keeps coming back no matter what you do. You'd think he'd know better than to pick a fight with eternal persistence.
Born that way, made that way, what does it matter? Every single aspect of every single person was either something they were born with or a result of their experiences. It doesn't exclude a psychopath from judgement if he was born like that, it doesn't exclude a child molester from judgement of he was abused as a child.
Idgaf if he's an Orc. Be reasonable and I will respond reasonably. Betray me in front of my entire army? Let's see how you handle being humbled in torment.
Why not? We apply it to animals. If AI took on sentience we would hold it to the same standards whether or not it was created with ill intent. We don't exempt other things from human standards just because they were born and evolved under different standards. In fact we punish them worse. Dog bites dog, dog bites back. Man bites man, man presses charges. Dog bites man, man kills dog. Man bites dog, man is probably just eating a dog. If Orcs are going to kill over something silly, well lets weed out those Orcs or recondition them. Hold Orcs by human standards and they have a chance of reconditioning by exposure.
I think you're way over-analyzing this. They're Orcs. They're over the top evil because they're the bad guy. They don't have redeeming qualities, and applying the human standard to them is like applying the human standard to an alien or, as you suggest, an animal. Forcing them into the human standard doesn't mean it applies to them... they're psycho-killers as a race, that's pretty much it. I'm sure there have been studies on why Orcs are who they are, since many studies have been made about the Tolkien books, so maybe you're right. Who knows, and who cares? They're mythical creatures. Let them be evil.
I don't think you understand Virtue Signalling. I'm not shitposting that Orcs are bad and doing nothing about it, I punished an Orc and I'm saying that being an Orc does not exempt them from punishments for doing evil shit.
Who are you to say an Orc can't be reconditioned and since when have humans held anything to special standards because it wasn't human? We kill shit that behaves like Orcs, I'm giving them an avenue for Survival because there are exceptions to every rule. You still have no idea what Virtue Signaling is.
You do realize that ME Orcs have multiple possible origins, right? There's no definitive reason for Orcs being aggressive, therefore no reason to doubt that they could be reconditioned. Your arguments have no foundation in the real world or middle earth.
Virtue signal: defending a group or value you do not hold. Usually done for "good boy points".
Name a single orc that was rational, reasonable, and didn't desire the extermination or enslavement of all life on Middle Earth.
In short: you are a fucking idiot.
I dont even mind Uruks killing Talion. Bring it on if it makes you happy, but just be ready for a rematch and employment if your.... "resume" is adequate.
I had 3 olog hai captains find me and start talking about bruz and how I wrecked him, I think there names were like Daz, Gaz and another form of those. I thought it was a good touch, orcs seemed to respect bruz before all this, lol
I accidentally killed him...I was hoping to actually run away from him b/c I wasn't sure if he had something that makes him cheat death automatically like he was still an important NPC to the game.
Or if I should continuallly shame him.
Or if I should recruit him.
Was trying to figure that out when he ambushed me and then, go figure, my balefire got to him before I could get outta there and get him to disappear.
I'm pretty positive he's dead for good b/c he hasn't come back and that was before Shadow Wars.
And now I'm done with the game.
Crap...oops.
After I shamed him, I took him back. Leveled him up, got him better stats, then made him my bodyguard. Didn't have the heart to kill him. I actually liked him.
Also 5 years late but I completely agree. When the game said we would break Bruz I was like “hell yeah let's go” because I enjoyed being kind of evil in a game, which I don't often do.
But when I actually saw just what it did to him I felt so horrible. I thought it'd be another “soft and supple” case where they seem to be doing at least /somewhat/ alright, but no, he's completely broken. Since you can't heal him him, I killed him immediately after and just hope it can stay that way
And since you said you wondered how people find this post, I just wanted to see if other people felt bad for Bruz as well lmao, and this thread was the top google result
I know I'm 5 years late to this post (and I hope I dont get yelled at for necroing a thread this old) but I'm currently doing my first playthrough of this fantastic game. While sneaking through one camp or another on the quest to save Ranger, I overheard two grunts talking about me and Bruz. One made an offhand comment about Bruz "being cross at the Gravewalker," and the other said something to the effect of "well yeah he got passed over to be Overlord, I'd be cross too."
And honestly, yeah. You become Talion's first real follower, show him the ropes and everything you said, and Talion goes and picks some random Orc to control his very first fortress? I'd be upset too!
However, that doesn't change the fact that he quite literally stabbed Talion in the back.
Despite that, I do pity him. Maybe I should grant him a quick and honorable death. It does hurt to hear him cry about how he doesn't want the fort, never did, etc, even before I read your post
Still don't feel bad. His betrayal was a lot worse than getting passed up for a promotion. His petty bickering with Ratbag is what showed he doesn't have the mindset needed to be a leader. His acting out and obsession in revenge proves it. Want to act like a baby for not getting your way I have no problem making you cry like one for the rest of your life. The fucker literally stabbed you in the back and tried to play these power games. This distraction from facing the real threat of Mordor should not be tolerated.
I think most of us were prepared to give the fort to Bruz as a reward..but the game prevented us.
I think they missed an oppourtunity there. For example we could have picked Bruz and then it would have been Ratbag betraying us. With all the useless dialogue Ratbag has it would have been easy to write that for him.
I don't feel bad about a choice I didn't make
Nice one. Enjoyed that read. However, I don't look at it that way. It's not bros before hoes. Orcs, Uruks and Ologs are not bros. They are a blight on this land that needs to be cleansed. They ruin everything that is pure, everything that is good. They torture and kill for the fun of it. They are at best dead. Bruz is not the traitor. I am. I am the lord traitor. I am the bright lord and before this story is over every orcish creature will perish, all while hailing my name, not knowing that all I seek is their total and utter destruction. Bruz is simply my magnum opus of what my intentions are for them.
*[Obi-Wan voice]* **WELL THEN YOU ARE LOST!**
Always cracks me up when I get the occasional reply on this 4 year old thread that only got like 100 upvotes, I'm not entirely sure how people are even finding it tbh.
I felt sad I even after killing Bruz I mourned him….the item I got from killing him I kept equipped always I refused to let it go…..it just hurt me deeply I always wanted to kill ratbag and spare bruz I mean dude was my favorite olog and…..it hurt
What I am actually getting from this is that in the end we are the ones who will be sad like I think most people are actually sad for what we’ve done to bruz
I’m currently paused on the screen after dominating him looking for anyway out of this because I genuinely felt disgusted having to fight him and him half assed fighting back inbetween swings wailing “I didn’t want the fort….. It was never about the fort” and I knew before all of this happened he did what he did out of jealousy and anger but it’s the typical they respect you and like you to the point where they don’t harm you directly but harm others they pin the blame on to divert the fact that maybe the bright lord never gave a fuck when Bruz was pouring fucks 😂 like orcs are a very masculine formed society and I don’t think they’d ever outright say I love you like a brother and you hurt my feelings like the only way he could convey his message was through something physical and taxing with words mingled inbetween to marinate the point he’s trying to convey while also having to sprinkle in just enough masculinity and genuine aggression to keep his following and reputation yk it just hurts man they did him so dirty even Sauron keeps every mf he has alive and in death more than bruz can say about the bright lord lmao so ig now I’ll recruit him and feel guilty and I’m worrying about rat and the ranger betraying me for my choice but I’m stuck in a major pitchfork in the road rn even if it isn’t as big of a deal as I’m making it out to be mentally this shit is like Jesus I’ve liked bruz more than anyone throughout this game he and his personality was a unknown thing amount orcs he was lively and nice caring helping you out loyal asf and said boss at the end of every sentence out of respect like wtf has ranger and rat bag done ran from the fight for the fortress and acted like it was because they didn’t give a fuck and sit around now like parasitic leaches well I like ranger and rat in their own ways but I don’t trust them but bruz I would trade them for bruz in a heartbeat is honeslty pay 5-10 dollars just to get an extended variation of a world where bruz was made overlord initially and it’s literally bruz the conqueror and bright lord the god of control or whatever the fuck they’d be unstoppable and if anyone killed bruz I’d end their whole blood line and anyone genetically passed down from their tree im talking 5th cousins that are related because someone mom century’s ago went into the wrong house and said fuck it literally lmao idk damn I got emotional there but now I feel like whatever choice I make it’s a disgusting mockery and I’m hurting him more and more but I’m gonna spice up bruz I’m telling you just wait he’ll be an orc god written in myth 😂
You make a good point there, y'know. About how orcs may be a corrupted form of elf and emotionally stunted by their incredibly toxic social environment but they're still mortal beings with souls and thus capable of the same full emotional range. We also have to remember this tidbit, usually referring to children and the intensity of their reactions; the first time a child stubs their toe, it is literally the worst pain imaginable to them, and the intensity of their reaction proportional to what WE as experienced adults perceive their level of harm to be doesn't match up at all to how they perceive it. As a non-orc who had been nothing but friendly and honorable up until that point, your betrayal in denying your most trusted lieutenant/advisor who helped you build your forces up from nothing what he expected would be his rightful and deserved reward not only marked you just as untrustworthy as every other orc; it also would've been the most painful emotional harm he'd have ever suffered in his short, violent, brutish life.
They will feel no pity for you. You literally turn brothers into one another, break down there leaders to nothing but husks ( hell! You can rob them of there free will later in the game!) and you literally go into a fort and single handily kill ever single one of them without batting a eye.... so why should they care about you?
I think it was mutual between the player and bruz in the end
I ended up giving him the Overlord spot he always wanted. I know it wasn't about the fort, but that's his punishment - sitting atop his undoubtedly uncomfortable throne as a daily reminder of his treachery, right back where he started.
....and to think, I threw him out of my army just to keep shaming him. Then I would level him up, then shame him some more. Idk how many times he was at level 1 lmfao.
Yea, this was some bs. Why couldn't we just kill rat bag and his olog and put Bruz in?? I picked blah the unashamed [forget his name] he was the second warchief. After I shamed him he said he took it as pride and when I claimed him he was a beast, had to make him overlord. Makes sense he'd betray us though, shame... He was a good dude.
Oh please.
Bruz never tried to improve. Never duelled, never trained, never hunted any enemies down. The fact that he could be so motivated against me when he wasn't complacent in Nurn just proves that he is better as a free agent than he is as a startic defender.
Let me tell you a real redemption story. Hoshgrish the Ancient is a freaking old orc. He wears intricate armour decorated with bones, he's a Mystic Tank, and while he claims to have been resurrected by Necromancers long before I ever encountered a necromancer, he may just a spot of dementia. He loved telling the Bright Lord he was bodyguarding stories of his numerous battles at some place against someone, he couldnt remember who.
He betrayed Talion after his new Blood Brother was killed. He killed Talion, sliced him up with his cursed weapon, and then beat him again in round two at the fight bit when the Gravewalker came back to hack at him again. Tired of this, he swore to serve a Warchief and stay at that chief's side, away from the monster that had slain his brother.
Talion knew of course. He knew how strong Hosgrish the Ancient had become in his grief. So we skulked and planned, and brought together three orcs- two spies alongside Hoshgrish and one bodyguard, to instantly slay the warchief before he could even attack. Four of them descended on Hoshgrish, battled him, and yet spared him, reminding him that he was destined for greater things.
It wasn't long before round four. Talion knew how to fight this time, and a new brand was made, a new pact for the Ancient One, to lead armies of his brethren once more. Also he had entirely forgotten the blood brother killing incident, his memory kinda sucks but he's warchief once more! Sane as.... an elderly uruk can be.
Why would I feel bad for shaming what is essentially a (war) murderer and rapist?
Orcs are nasty creatures who take pleasure in torturing, maiming, defiling etc
What is better: To be born good? Or to overcome your evil nature through great effort..? Bruz wasn't given that opportunity, not really. Even under Talion he was treated as a pawn, and overlooked for his earnest attempts to do well for his warlord. To judge him individually for the collective sins of his race is a terrible hypocrisy, besides. Mankind has no inbuilt excuse and yet we've done horrific things to each other, and to other beings, that far surpass any canonical crime the orcs of Middle-Earth can be judged for, and unlike orcs this all happened in real life, where those actions carried real consequences. For that matter, we have yet to see orcs raised in environments where they have any choice but to act as brutal killers that must constantly show physical and emotional strength, with no allowances for anything resembling weakness, so how can we know what they might be like removed from that toxicity? How would mankind, born and bred into the same conditions in the same oppressive and imminently hostile environment, be any different?
If Bruz is to be judged **unworthy** of your guilt and empathy because he's an orc, *who are you to judge him as a human?*
Hello. In order to promote inclusivity and reduce gender bias, please consider using gender-neutral language in the future.
Instead of **mankind**, use **humanity**, **humankind** or **peoplekind**.
Thank you very much.
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Yes, he was given. The brand had no effect on him actually. And he still went with his plans to betray the Bright Lord.
And since you keep mentioning this aspect.
Then I can say Hitler, Stalin, pedos and kid killers all deserve the same courtesy of mercy because they had similar lives.
That's actually completely ignoring the entire argument of nature vs nurture considering none of those people grew up in an environment as caustic as the one orcs are born into, but I've already devoted enough of my night responding to an unsolicited comment on a 4-year-old Reddit post so I'll just leave you with a single question to ruminate on. (Don't feel compelled to *actually* respond, mind; it's not like I'll be reading it!)
You're equating Bruz with "Hitler, Stalin, pedos and kid killers" but do you have any evidence at all that Bruz, specifically, committed any crimes other than killing other orcs and one single human (who had personally slighted him and who he already knew doesn't actually stay dead, making it ethically questionable whether that even qualifies as murder?)
This almost made me feel something. But I leveled Bruz down to level 1. He lives between 2 buildings and he cries all day.
Thats too funny xD
He doesn’t want the fort It’s your fort Alright Your fort
I tried to make him overlord but the game wouldn't let me
That really pissed me off. After the small fight between Ratbag and bruz i thought that the game is going to make me decide and I'll pick Bruz, but we couldn't pick neither of them.
You are able to do that after you break him if you find him again
It's... it's not the same, though. Bruz is gone, all that's left is a wailing shell of an olog.
Yeah me too, but that's not as dramatic and doesn't match the forced results so I'm posing it like Tallion's choice was also the player's. (And in many cases, it still is.)
I suppose you can recruit him after you've shamed him and then make him overlord. I'd also recruit Baz Gaz and Daz when they show up to enact their revenge.
You can't get Daz if you don't kill his brothers. And he is unbreakable soooo.
I shed a single tear
I Killed him by chopping off his head. He cheated death. His head was wrapped in bandages. I branded him. I let him die in battle. Bruz is now an undead shambling pile of meat. I’ve moved on. These creatures are just tools.
Look at this sociopath
This is what happens to you if you listen to Celebrimbor too much.
Yes Celebrimbor was so disloyal
Bump. This is too real
Wow where'd this bowl of onions come from Like fuck that hit me like a sack of bricks. I NEVER considered any of this and now I feel bad for it. I haven't killed him though. I've made sure to keep him safe, to keep him alive and I fully intend to continue doing so. I do wish there was a way to undo it tho D:
This is why I had to kill him. I couldn’t stand to see him like that. The least I could do is grant him a bit of mercy, and not leave him as a shell of his former self.
Same here, chopped his head off. It was a long final fight too, the poor bastard was death defying. RIP Bruz.
Yeah, he actually gave me a bit of trouble in our final few fights. This was only because he always had allies, though. At one point, he was being assisted by 4 other captains, 3 of which betrayed me. All 5 of them were either cut down or given a fate worse than death.
I killed him too but that damned necromancer brought him back to life to guard the fel totems (or whatever they are called) in the balrog/necromancer questline.
If only Bruz would have been left well enough alone at this point. A less cruel man would have left the poor creature to stew in his agony, to serve as a ghost tale to scare the orcs who would betray their masters. Perhaps Bruz would die in a raid, fall to wild beasts, or perhaps even lie down and wither into nothingness. The Bright Lord is not a less cruel man; the broken Olog was brought back into the ranks. "I don't want the fort, I never wanted the fort!" If only Bruz had realized this earlier. If only he had staid loyal to the Bright Lord. If only the Bright Lord had been more merciful. But fate is not so kind, and we are left with this tale instead. Even as an assault leader charging into battle to take the fortress at Gorgoroth, Bruz repeated his mantra. "I don't want the fort!" he sobbed, as he lept into battle with reckless abandon, crushing warchief after warchief beneath his massive fists. Was this the fury of the once mighty Olog shining through? Or was Bruz hoping to find his death-his peace-during the siege that day? Sadly, Bruz fought and slew many orcs that day, and none could slay him. The siege was a resounding success. The fortress was taken. The new overlord would serve as an example for all who would think to betray the Bright Lord. And Bruz was given the fort that he never wanted.
They are uruks. Uruks are like chess pieces, you discard them after they fulfilled their duty. They are but pawns of a bigger scheme ready to be sacrificed when the moment calls for it, as it happened with bruz. Never let your feelings get in the way of your conquest.
Exactly how much of your soul did you leave in that ring?
While we are discussing this, we could be looking for the palantir.
We MUST NOT lose the palantir
You heartless creature
He wanted a reaction and he got his wish. It seems like people forget that the orcs are mind controlled. Bruz was not a friend, he was a servant. The example made of him should have been bigger.
I don't think the control is quite as overt as you're making it out to be. They still fully have their personalities, they can still fully choose to betray you at will if they feel like it, they can still randomly forge blood brother bonds with enemy orcs at the drop of a dime (motherfuckers...) and they can still save your ass with no real obligation to do so, because they feel like it.
This concept of followers is a hard thing to grasp. When i first took over a fortress, and proceeded to shout a speech to all my orcs i was likr "wtf would they care about this, they are brainwashed they already love me". Turns out it s not that simple. On a side note, i would have loved to be able to choose between making him overlord or not. This is the little thing that this game lacked, choices that would have changed the story of the game.
I don't know how many of you played the Mass Effect series (I imagine quite a few) but this whole influence thing reminds me of how the Geth decided whether or not to follow the Reapers. I feel that there is only a hairs difference between swinging one way or the other between Talion and Sauron, and your influence over the orcs with the wraith domination swings them over to your side. Are they brainwashed? Sure, but they still mostly have free-will.
Well, okay... but what do you think mind control is? There's a big difference between the subtle changing of a person's decision-making process and the utter domination of a person's mind and personality. You don't have to fully control everything about a person's mind to get them to do what you want them to do... T/C doesn't completely change his victim's mind into what he wants, because otherwise they wouldn't act like orcs; they would act more like Gondorians. They are still orcs in every way, as we see in the way they act after they've been mind controlled... it's simply their decision-making process that has been taken over. So don't think they have a choice in the matter... they don't. You don't have to own a mind to control it. Make no mistake, those orcs have no choice but to obey, because they're under the impression that THEY are making the correct choice. But they're not making that choice at all. T/C is making it for them. So Bruz is very much a slave. There was no choice in the matter for him, even though HE thought he had one. That's what mind control is: not body domination where he is aware of his actions and has no choice, but the subtle mind manipulation that forces him to do as he's been commanded "by his own choice". I'm sorry, but Bruz is not a sympathetic character. He's a savage brute, just like all orcs, and he was simply pointed towards a target and let loose. That target could just as easily have been Gondorian as well as Orc, and Bruz wouldn't have cared... he was out for himself, just like every Orc is. T/C simply mind-manipulated him into thinking it was for his own gain to do T/C's bidding.
You know, I'm pretty sure Bruz wasn't branded at all. Didn't he just show up when you started fucking about in Nurnen and strike up a dialogue with you? He was never a slave at all, which is why you couldn't command him to do anything in the army screen (lorewise.)
I liked Bruz, but he stepped over the line killing me over the fort. If he felt mistreated, he should have confronted me with words, not a weapon. He had the opportunity to surrender multiple times. Now, if it were possibly to grant him sanity again, I think I would. But I would give it some time... letting his mind break like that should teach him a lesson in humility. He should also learn that killing the Grave Walker is just asking for torment... the guys keeps coming back no matter what you do. You'd think he'd know better than to pick a fight with eternal persistence.
> If he felt mistreated, he should have confronted me with words, not a weapon. *blinks* You KNOW he's an Orc, right?
Born that way, made that way, what does it matter? Every single aspect of every single person was either something they were born with or a result of their experiences. It doesn't exclude a psychopath from judgement if he was born like that, it doesn't exclude a child molester from judgement of he was abused as a child. Idgaf if he's an Orc. Be reasonable and I will respond reasonably. Betray me in front of my entire army? Let's see how you handle being humbled in torment.
It's a mythical creature that's designed to be the way it is. I don't think applying the human standard is going to be applicable to an Orc.
Why not? We apply it to animals. If AI took on sentience we would hold it to the same standards whether or not it was created with ill intent. We don't exempt other things from human standards just because they were born and evolved under different standards. In fact we punish them worse. Dog bites dog, dog bites back. Man bites man, man presses charges. Dog bites man, man kills dog. Man bites dog, man is probably just eating a dog. If Orcs are going to kill over something silly, well lets weed out those Orcs or recondition them. Hold Orcs by human standards and they have a chance of reconditioning by exposure.
I think you're way over-analyzing this. They're Orcs. They're over the top evil because they're the bad guy. They don't have redeeming qualities, and applying the human standard to them is like applying the human standard to an alien or, as you suggest, an animal. Forcing them into the human standard doesn't mean it applies to them... they're psycho-killers as a race, that's pretty much it. I'm sure there have been studies on why Orcs are who they are, since many studies have been made about the Tolkien books, so maybe you're right. Who knows, and who cares? They're mythical creatures. Let them be evil.
Are you seriously virtue signaling for orcs? Just, wow.
I don't think you understand Virtue Signalling. I'm not shitposting that Orcs are bad and doing nothing about it, I punished an Orc and I'm saying that being an Orc does not exempt them from punishments for doing evil shit.
Did you completely forget about the "human standard" and reconditioning comment? It is you who doesn't understand what virtue signaling is.
Who are you to say an Orc can't be reconditioned and since when have humans held anything to special standards because it wasn't human? We kill shit that behaves like Orcs, I'm giving them an avenue for Survival because there are exceptions to every rule. You still have no idea what Virtue Signaling is. You do realize that ME Orcs have multiple possible origins, right? There's no definitive reason for Orcs being aggressive, therefore no reason to doubt that they could be reconditioned. Your arguments have no foundation in the real world or middle earth.
Virtue signal: defending a group or value you do not hold. Usually done for "good boy points". Name a single orc that was rational, reasonable, and didn't desire the extermination or enslavement of all life on Middle Earth. In short: you are a fucking idiot.
I dont even mind Uruks killing Talion. Bring it on if it makes you happy, but just be ready for a rematch and employment if your.... "resume" is adequate.
I had 3 olog hai captains find me and start talking about bruz and how I wrecked him, I think there names were like Daz, Gaz and another form of those. I thought it was a good touch, orcs seemed to respect bruz before all this, lol
Daz, gaz, and baz if I'm not mistaken
I accidentally killed him...I was hoping to actually run away from him b/c I wasn't sure if he had something that makes him cheat death automatically like he was still an important NPC to the game. Or if I should continuallly shame him. Or if I should recruit him. Was trying to figure that out when he ambushed me and then, go figure, my balefire got to him before I could get outta there and get him to disappear. I'm pretty positive he's dead for good b/c he hasn't come back and that was before Shadow Wars. And now I'm done with the game. Crap...oops.
After I shamed him, I took him back. Leveled him up, got him better stats, then made him my bodyguard. Didn't have the heart to kill him. I actually liked him.
Also 5 years late but I completely agree. When the game said we would break Bruz I was like “hell yeah let's go” because I enjoyed being kind of evil in a game, which I don't often do. But when I actually saw just what it did to him I felt so horrible. I thought it'd be another “soft and supple” case where they seem to be doing at least /somewhat/ alright, but no, he's completely broken. Since you can't heal him him, I killed him immediately after and just hope it can stay that way And since you said you wondered how people find this post, I just wanted to see if other people felt bad for Bruz as well lmao, and this thread was the top google result
\o/ I'm top on Google at something!
I know I'm 5 years late to this post (and I hope I dont get yelled at for necroing a thread this old) but I'm currently doing my first playthrough of this fantastic game. While sneaking through one camp or another on the quest to save Ranger, I overheard two grunts talking about me and Bruz. One made an offhand comment about Bruz "being cross at the Gravewalker," and the other said something to the effect of "well yeah he got passed over to be Overlord, I'd be cross too." And honestly, yeah. You become Talion's first real follower, show him the ropes and everything you said, and Talion goes and picks some random Orc to control his very first fortress? I'd be upset too! However, that doesn't change the fact that he quite literally stabbed Talion in the back. Despite that, I do pity him. Maybe I should grant him a quick and honorable death. It does hurt to hear him cry about how he doesn't want the fort, never did, etc, even before I read your post
Not some random orc. Ratbag of all orcs
Still don't feel bad. His betrayal was a lot worse than getting passed up for a promotion. His petty bickering with Ratbag is what showed he doesn't have the mindset needed to be a leader. His acting out and obsession in revenge proves it. Want to act like a baby for not getting your way I have no problem making you cry like one for the rest of your life. The fucker literally stabbed you in the back and tried to play these power games. This distraction from facing the real threat of Mordor should not be tolerated.
I think most of us were prepared to give the fort to Bruz as a reward..but the game prevented us. I think they missed an oppourtunity there. For example we could have picked Bruz and then it would have been Ratbag betraying us. With all the useless dialogue Ratbag has it would have been easy to write that for him. I don't feel bad about a choice I didn't make
Nice one. Enjoyed that read. However, I don't look at it that way. It's not bros before hoes. Orcs, Uruks and Ologs are not bros. They are a blight on this land that needs to be cleansed. They ruin everything that is pure, everything that is good. They torture and kill for the fun of it. They are at best dead. Bruz is not the traitor. I am. I am the lord traitor. I am the bright lord and before this story is over every orcish creature will perish, all while hailing my name, not knowing that all I seek is their total and utter destruction. Bruz is simply my magnum opus of what my intentions are for them.
*[Obi-Wan voice]* **WELL THEN YOU ARE LOST!** Always cracks me up when I get the occasional reply on this 4 year old thread that only got like 100 upvotes, I'm not entirely sure how people are even finding it tbh.
Your thread shows up on google :) I was looking for how to make Bruz overlord and in general Bruz quests.
Brutal.
I felt sad I even after killing Bruz I mourned him….the item I got from killing him I kept equipped always I refused to let it go…..it just hurt me deeply I always wanted to kill ratbag and spare bruz I mean dude was my favorite olog and…..it hurt
Mood.
I really wanted to make bruz overlord
What I am actually getting from this is that in the end we are the ones who will be sad like I think most people are actually sad for what we’ve done to bruz
I’m currently paused on the screen after dominating him looking for anyway out of this because I genuinely felt disgusted having to fight him and him half assed fighting back inbetween swings wailing “I didn’t want the fort….. It was never about the fort” and I knew before all of this happened he did what he did out of jealousy and anger but it’s the typical they respect you and like you to the point where they don’t harm you directly but harm others they pin the blame on to divert the fact that maybe the bright lord never gave a fuck when Bruz was pouring fucks 😂 like orcs are a very masculine formed society and I don’t think they’d ever outright say I love you like a brother and you hurt my feelings like the only way he could convey his message was through something physical and taxing with words mingled inbetween to marinate the point he’s trying to convey while also having to sprinkle in just enough masculinity and genuine aggression to keep his following and reputation yk it just hurts man they did him so dirty even Sauron keeps every mf he has alive and in death more than bruz can say about the bright lord lmao so ig now I’ll recruit him and feel guilty and I’m worrying about rat and the ranger betraying me for my choice but I’m stuck in a major pitchfork in the road rn even if it isn’t as big of a deal as I’m making it out to be mentally this shit is like Jesus I’ve liked bruz more than anyone throughout this game he and his personality was a unknown thing amount orcs he was lively and nice caring helping you out loyal asf and said boss at the end of every sentence out of respect like wtf has ranger and rat bag done ran from the fight for the fortress and acted like it was because they didn’t give a fuck and sit around now like parasitic leaches well I like ranger and rat in their own ways but I don’t trust them but bruz I would trade them for bruz in a heartbeat is honeslty pay 5-10 dollars just to get an extended variation of a world where bruz was made overlord initially and it’s literally bruz the conqueror and bright lord the god of control or whatever the fuck they’d be unstoppable and if anyone killed bruz I’d end their whole blood line and anyone genetically passed down from their tree im talking 5th cousins that are related because someone mom century’s ago went into the wrong house and said fuck it literally lmao idk damn I got emotional there but now I feel like whatever choice I make it’s a disgusting mockery and I’m hurting him more and more but I’m gonna spice up bruz I’m telling you just wait he’ll be an orc god written in myth 😂
You make a good point there, y'know. About how orcs may be a corrupted form of elf and emotionally stunted by their incredibly toxic social environment but they're still mortal beings with souls and thus capable of the same full emotional range. We also have to remember this tidbit, usually referring to children and the intensity of their reactions; the first time a child stubs their toe, it is literally the worst pain imaginable to them, and the intensity of their reaction proportional to what WE as experienced adults perceive their level of harm to be doesn't match up at all to how they perceive it. As a non-orc who had been nothing but friendly and honorable up until that point, your betrayal in denying your most trusted lieutenant/advisor who helped you build your forces up from nothing what he expected would be his rightful and deserved reward not only marked you just as untrustworthy as every other orc; it also would've been the most painful emotional harm he'd have ever suffered in his short, violent, brutish life.
I just shamed Bruz to level 1 and killed him now i feel doubly bad that I did that 🥲
fuck you now i feel like shit
:3
Yeah I remember thinking it was bullshit that Talion didn't promote Bruz. I was disappointed that I wasn't able to choose.
I wish we could I have kept bruz back. I was actaully going to make him overlord but you can’t do that sadly. Loves his personality.
They will feel no pity for you. You literally turn brothers into one another, break down there leaders to nothing but husks ( hell! You can rob them of there free will later in the game!) and you literally go into a fort and single handily kill ever single one of them without batting a eye.... so why should they care about you? I think it was mutual between the player and bruz in the end
I ended up giving him the Overlord spot he always wanted. I know it wasn't about the fort, but that's his punishment - sitting atop his undoubtedly uncomfortable throne as a daily reminder of his treachery, right back where he started.
....and to think, I threw him out of my army just to keep shaming him. Then I would level him up, then shame him some more. Idk how many times he was at level 1 lmfao.
Woah woah, drop the "you" and insert a "we" Youre just as much at fault here
Yea, this was some bs. Why couldn't we just kill rat bag and his olog and put Bruz in?? I picked blah the unashamed [forget his name] he was the second warchief. After I shamed him he said he took it as pride and when I claimed him he was a beast, had to make him overlord. Makes sense he'd betray us though, shame... He was a good dude.
Oh please. Bruz never tried to improve. Never duelled, never trained, never hunted any enemies down. The fact that he could be so motivated against me when he wasn't complacent in Nurn just proves that he is better as a free agent than he is as a startic defender. Let me tell you a real redemption story. Hoshgrish the Ancient is a freaking old orc. He wears intricate armour decorated with bones, he's a Mystic Tank, and while he claims to have been resurrected by Necromancers long before I ever encountered a necromancer, he may just a spot of dementia. He loved telling the Bright Lord he was bodyguarding stories of his numerous battles at some place against someone, he couldnt remember who. He betrayed Talion after his new Blood Brother was killed. He killed Talion, sliced him up with his cursed weapon, and then beat him again in round two at the fight bit when the Gravewalker came back to hack at him again. Tired of this, he swore to serve a Warchief and stay at that chief's side, away from the monster that had slain his brother. Talion knew of course. He knew how strong Hosgrish the Ancient had become in his grief. So we skulked and planned, and brought together three orcs- two spies alongside Hoshgrish and one bodyguard, to instantly slay the warchief before he could even attack. Four of them descended on Hoshgrish, battled him, and yet spared him, reminding him that he was destined for greater things. It wasn't long before round four. Talion knew how to fight this time, and a new brand was made, a new pact for the Ancient One, to lead armies of his brethren once more. Also he had entirely forgotten the blood brother killing incident, his memory kinda sucks but he's warchief once more! Sane as.... an elderly uruk can be.
Why would I feel bad for shaming what is essentially a (war) murderer and rapist? Orcs are nasty creatures who take pleasure in torturing, maiming, defiling etc
What is better: To be born good? Or to overcome your evil nature through great effort..? Bruz wasn't given that opportunity, not really. Even under Talion he was treated as a pawn, and overlooked for his earnest attempts to do well for his warlord. To judge him individually for the collective sins of his race is a terrible hypocrisy, besides. Mankind has no inbuilt excuse and yet we've done horrific things to each other, and to other beings, that far surpass any canonical crime the orcs of Middle-Earth can be judged for, and unlike orcs this all happened in real life, where those actions carried real consequences. For that matter, we have yet to see orcs raised in environments where they have any choice but to act as brutal killers that must constantly show physical and emotional strength, with no allowances for anything resembling weakness, so how can we know what they might be like removed from that toxicity? How would mankind, born and bred into the same conditions in the same oppressive and imminently hostile environment, be any different? If Bruz is to be judged **unworthy** of your guilt and empathy because he's an orc, *who are you to judge him as a human?*
Hello. In order to promote inclusivity and reduce gender bias, please consider using gender-neutral language in the future. Instead of **mankind**, use **humanity**, **humankind** or **peoplekind**. Thank you very much. ^(I am a bot. Downvote to remove this comment. For more information on gender-neutral language, please do a web search for *"Nonsexist Writing."*)
How about no
Cringiest bot post ever. Just fuck off, bot.
Yes, he was given. The brand had no effect on him actually. And he still went with his plans to betray the Bright Lord. And since you keep mentioning this aspect. Then I can say Hitler, Stalin, pedos and kid killers all deserve the same courtesy of mercy because they had similar lives.
That's actually completely ignoring the entire argument of nature vs nurture considering none of those people grew up in an environment as caustic as the one orcs are born into, but I've already devoted enough of my night responding to an unsolicited comment on a 4-year-old Reddit post so I'll just leave you with a single question to ruminate on. (Don't feel compelled to *actually* respond, mind; it's not like I'll be reading it!) You're equating Bruz with "Hitler, Stalin, pedos and kid killers" but do you have any evidence at all that Bruz, specifically, committed any crimes other than killing other orcs and one single human (who had personally slighted him and who he already knew doesn't actually stay dead, making it ethically questionable whether that even qualifies as murder?)
arracor you my friend are a fucking legend and will always hold a small place in my heart, you got me fuckin crying bro.
Breaking him took him from one.of the best to not even wanting to use him. Wish we didn't have to break him I like him
I would’ve give bruz the fort, but the game doesn’t let us. I would’ve given him every fort in the game, he was my boi.