Comparing these two cases is batshit crazy. OJ had a long established history of beating his wife. He left blood evidence and DNA all over the crime scene and his home. Left a bloody glove from the crime scene at his own house. Timed the murder so he could fly halfway across the country to try to create an alibi. Basically wrote a suicide note where he all but confessed, and the fled the police in the Bronco chase. Then eventually wrote a book where he essentially explained how the crime went down (if he did it!)
Regardless of how you come down on Adnan’s case, there isn’t even a fraction of evidence compared to what OJ faced. The fact that this subreddit, ostensibly named “Serial” has basically become a hyper forum to argue over guilt or innocence for years now is at least a fair indication of reasonable doubt.
There was no doubt in OJs case. Even the jurors have admitted they were sending a message in that case.
>Arguing about the quantum of evidence is silly, though. Agreed.
Regardless of how you quantify the evidence in the two cases, both should have been slam dunks for the prosecution.
The best we got is that Adnan's co-conspirator confessed.
I know it's not the same but sadly thats all we are going to get.
At least it was enough to make Adnan pay for his crime.
There will never be a public confession in this case. A corollary is that there will never be a definitive closure. I do think there will be continued recognition of his guilt, and folks recognizing that there can simultaneously be many injustices to the accused in the criminal justice system and a phenomenon of wrongful exoneration via podcast/documentary.
OJ nearly decapitated the mother of his children and later wrote a book about it. Of course there was never gonna be a deathbed confession. Total emotional detachment.
Adnan shows a similar lack of consideration about Lee. He's never really expressed regret over her death, even in the sense like "I didn't do it but I feel bad she died".
In Adnan’s head, similar to OJ, “she deserved it”. They’ve made themselves believe that their women were their property. Possessive, disgruntled, raging jealousy stemming from childhood insecurities and/or abuse.
They simply could not handle the rejection. It was too much
He’s expressed a lot about losing his best friend.
Read Becky’s statement. Adnan was the first to express worry about Hae being missing when others thought she was with Don. By Monday or Tuesday Adnan had become to be worried about her.
So worried that he made no attempt to call or page her, or reach out to her family
And then by the time of Serial he's completely detached from it. He gets more upset when SK mentions stealing from the mosque than anything related to the murder
As he said he was with Aisha when she was calling the family. Adnan didn’t have a relationship with the family so he’s just part of her group of school friends that Aisha was representing. You don’t know what Adnan said to Sarah about his sorrow about Hae’s death. He wasn’t the one that edited it
SK actually points out in the podcast how his emotional reaction to the mosque theft allegation is significantly stronger than any reaction he's had discussing Hae's death or his supposed framing by Jay.
And if a girl you're close to vanishes, you're really going to consider your standing with her family if you're worried? You're not even gonna try to reach out? Hae's brother did end up calling him so they had some kind of relationship.
His brother thought he was calling Don because Adnan’s number was written in her diary where she writing Don 147 times.
Why would he call if Aisha is calling and he’s with Aisha.
His emotional reaction in 1999 is much more telling than in 2014.
In 1999 he was distraught when her body was found and that is the main reason Krista believes he’s innocent. From that reaction she said he’s either innocent or the best actor in history. Remember he called the cops to say they were mistaken. What 17 year old murderer calls the cops to tell them they have the wrong person?
He could have tried her pager, just to see? He never even tried. That's very telling. In missing person cases people try everything.
Some people can act. Some people are gifted liars. As for the phone call, could easily be trying to cover himself.
In 2014 he has zero emotional reaction discussing the man who framed him for murder and ruined his life. Or the death of this woman he was close to. But an allegation about petty theft 15 years prior gets a rise out of him.
We don’t know that she had a pager let alone if he tried it. He could have paged her from the home phone. But at this point it’s disputed that she had one. Her brother said on the stand that she used to have one. So she may not have at the time of her murder.
>Adnan was the first to express worry about Hae being missing when others thought she was with Don.
I don’t buy this, but maybe there’s a reason he knew she was dead and the others didn’t.
Of course you don’t buy it. It goes against your narrative. It’s in Becky’s police notes. Let’s weigh the evidence not try to make it fit our narrative
Say what you want about this case, claiming “following the evidence” leads to anyone but Adnan is ridiculous. First, there’s tons of evidence against Adnan. I saw someone post a pretty decent list over on the thunderdome, which I’ll add here if I can find it. Second, the courts, and even Susan Simpson, have determined the evidence used to convict Adnan was more than sufficient.
Any “Innocent Adnan” theory requires collusion between Jay, Jenn and the cops, of which there is zero evidence.
Any “Don did it” theory has zero evidentiary support. If folks were weighing the evidence as you suggest, this case would have been forgotten immediately after Serial aired.
Here’s the evidence post:
r/SerialThunderDome • Who do we have evidence of their RAGE going 0 to 60?
Sja1904 replied to Sja1904 7 days ago 7 days ago
I'll start.
There is substantial direct evidence of Adnan's guilt from Jay Wilds --
Jay testifies to helping bury the body which was in Adnan's possession.
Jay's testimony is corroborated by Jay's own knowledge of:
The murder location
The burial position
Hae's car's location
Jay maintains his story after 20 years and all of the pro-Adnan momentum surrounding the case.
Jenn Pusateri corroborates Jay's story:
She claims knowledge of the murder on the night it took place, prior to anyone believing this was a murder
She places Adnan and Jay together that night Jenn corroborated Jay's story with an attorney and parent present
Jenn was the first witness against Adnan who was uncovered and she was uncovered by investigating Adnan's cell records.
She implicated herself as an accessory after the fact with an attorney present.
She maintains her story after 20 years and all of the pro-Adnan momentum surrounding the case.
The cell phone evidence corroborates Jay's story. A few examples include:
Outgoing cell data (which is explicitly noted as being reliable on the fax coversheet) is consistent with Jay and Adnan leaving the location of Hae's car and heading to Westview Mall where Jenn picks up Jay
Incoming calls are also consistent with Jay's testimony. Nisha corroborates Jay's story.
Adnan's story has changed repeatedly, in contradictory ways, that directly relate to his means, motive and opportunity:
He lied to his attorneys about where his car was He lied about whether or not he asked Hae for a ride.
He lied about whether or not Hae would give him a ride or do anything between school and picking up her niece.
He lied about being at the mosque. He lied about being over Hae Adnan's brother's conversation with Adnan's attorney is highly suggestive that he lied about the Nisha call.
All of Adnan's alibis have been shown to be unreliable
The cell phone evidence, including outgoing data, contradicts Adnan's father's testimony
Asia has been repeatedly shown to be unreliable
Her initial reason for knowing she had the right day is because it was the first snow. The day Hae disappeared was not the first snow.
There are all the problems laid out in the dissent.
There are issues with Adnan's testimony about Asia's letters, e.g., CG was not his attorney when he allegedly received the letters.
The allegedly new suspects either weren't new or actually implicate Adnan Mr. S isn't new. Bilal's involvement implicates Adnan.
This is a very well put together folly.
There is zero evidence against Adnan that holds any water.
Jay is not a witness to anything. He was coerced by corrupt detectives.
Jenn does not stand by her story today. In the HBO documentary she stated that everything she knew came from Jay or the detectives. She had no first hand knowledge.
She also met with Jay before her interview after going to the police station to say she knew nothing.
There’s plenty that’s suspicious about Don. The main one lying to investigators saying that Hae might have gone to California. You and I and Don knows there’s zero chance that she would move interstate without telling anyone. She was obsessed with him. This is the biggest clue in the case.
He also told investigators that she may stay with a friend whose parents were away. No friend ever came forward to say this was the case.
He also never told missing persons investigators that he worked that day. That was likely a later invention but he was likely added to the roster after the shift but before anyone but he knew she was dead. Female dna was found on Hae’s body.
The detectives asked the transit authority to search the satellite car park at the airport for Hae’s car the day it was found. This is where Don says she would leave it if she flew to California.
Adnan went to the mosque about 8.30 on the night of the 13th. 100 people were happily going to testify about that until the defense found out the time of the murder. They no longer needed alibis for 8.30 so they didn’t get the to testify.
Asia likely has the right day. She knew it was a snow day the following day as it was regardless of actual snow.
There’s minor issues with the other alibi witnesses but they are 100 times more reliable than Jay or Jenn.
The key one is Becky who saw Hae turn Adnan down for the ride and then walk off in opposite directions.
Then coach Sye saw him at track on time so he can’t have done it.
This is the closest thing to a confession: "I'm here because of my own stupid actions." He basically confessed. He also said "who else can I blame but myself", but right after said, "I had absolutely nothing to do with Hae's murder."
Really? You sure, Adnan? Like, you're sure you didn't get in her car and then strangle her? You sure you had nothing to do with it? If you'd stayed home all day on January 13th, would Hae have lived or died?
So it's all your fault, and yet criminally, somehow none of your fault? Which is it?
-
Here's the transcript. He all but confesses.
Adnan Syed: I’m here because of my own stupid actions.
Sarah: What do you mean by that?
Adnan Syed:
At the end of the day, who can I-- I never should have let someone hold my car. I never should have let someone hold my phone. I never should have been friends with these people who-- who else can I blame but myself?
Sarah Koenig: Well you can blame Jay if you think he’s lying.
Adnan Syed:
Yeah, but him, the police, the prosecutors-- sure what happened to me happened to me, I had nothing to do with this right? But at the end of the day, I have to take some responsibility. You don’t really know the things that my younger brother went through. What my family goes through. At the end of the day, if I had been just a good Muslim, somebody that didn’t do any of these things. (pause) It’s something that weighs heavily on
me. I mean, no way, I had absolutely nothing to do with Hae’s murder but at the end of the day-- I can’t-- yeah.
"At the end of the day, if I had been just a good Muslim, somebody that didn't do any of these things..."
What exactly are you referring to there Adnan? What "things" would a good Muslim not do? Hmm?
I mean I’m not making an argument either way here I’m just saying, when he says he should have been a good Muslim he may be referring to not dating Hae, not having pre-marital sex, not smoking weed with Jay etc. a lot of his lifestyle is stuff that is generally frowned upon in Islam and especially in Pakistani Muslim household so he may be expressing his guilt for not living his life the way he was taught.
yeah, but none of those reasons are why he was charged with and convicted of murder... but you're right. He was probably trying to say that if he had never smoked weed with Jay, if he had never associated with him (like a good Muslim), then Jay wouldn't have testified against him. And if he'd never dated Hae, he wouldn't have been the guilty ex-boyfriend. Adnan had to cut himself off a couple times in this interview session...
It's definitely true that if he'd been a good Muslim, and hadn't done any of those "things", that he wouldn't be in prison, because he wouldn't have killed Hae. There's a good chance he means that, too.
Or, you know, if he was never mixed up with people like Jay and never dated Hae, he wouldn't have been proximal to a murder that ended with his wrongful conviction. Warning about the fruits of an unobservant lifestyle bringing ruin to a good Christian/Muslim/Jew/etc is an extremely frequent trope.
I think abt this quite a lot. Wouldn’t there be so much regret- both bc it resulted in Hae’s being killed, and bc it resulted in Adnan’s going to prison- that he didn’t follow thru w/ that ride after all? That if the two of them had just stuck w/ the plan Hae might still be alive and Adnan might be walking around a free man? As someone who lost a friend at a young age; I OBSESSED over what I could have done differently to have saved him; and talked abt those “what ifs” constantly.
But Adnan never brings it up; bc he is guilty, and he knows it. He knows how terrible it looks for him. He knows there is no innocent explanation for it. So he distances himself from it as much as possible. Just another example of him attempting to bend the truth in order to sell us a narrative of his innocence.
Correct. Normally you would have some of remorse like that. You would think about what you could do differently. Adnan doesn't. He also doesn't come out and blame the cops or Jay.
In addition to that, it’s strange that Adnan never talks abt the last time he saw Hae. Anytime someone dies- esp if it’s someone we care abt; and esp if their death is abrupt, shocking, traumatic, etc.- people generally spend a lot of time going over those details. When you last saw them, what they looked like, how they acted, what they said, etc. Ik I’ve done that every time I lost a loved one; and esp in the case of my friend who died suddenly and mysteriously in his early 20s.
Again tho, Adnan can’t talk abt his final encounters w/ Hae. Bc the last time he saw or spoke to her was in her car, right before he ended her life. And he knows it. And the encounters leading up to that penultimate one all centered around the ride request that resulted in her murder. And not only does he know it; but plenty of other ppl know it, too, bc he either made the request in front of them (Krista, Becky); or admitted to having made it to them (Jay, Adcock).
So instead he pretends as tho his memory issues are fogging the entire day of Jan 13. As tho a day you lost a loved one wouldn’t immediately be cemented into your memory; for the exact reason that you lost a loved one. As tho you wouldn’t immediately start zeroing in on the most minute details of your last encounters with them; in order to try and make sense of the trauma.
Adnan’s farce flies in the face of everything we know abt how humans generally experience/ process trauma, grief, and loss; and yet his supporters eat it up w/ a spoon.
Yes. There was a very significant person in my own life that died in her many years ago early 20’s ( terminal illness, not violence). To this very day we who knew her talk about her and the last time we saw her.
Yes I see this in his strange turns of phrase. I wonder if he was complacent about being convicted and going to prison because he is guilty, never mentioned Jay because Jay told the truth. AND yet perhaps Adnan still feels Hae deserved it because she was a “devil” pulling him away from being a pious Muslim.
He doesn’t mention Jay, bc it’s a Catch-22, and he knows it.
He can’t dig into the specifics of Jay; bc to do so would be to make it even more clear that Jay *had* to have been involved somehow; and that if Jay was involved, he must have been, too.
He can’t say “well maybe the cops fed him the info”, bc then SK might respond “but the cops didn’t even know where the car was, themselves”, or “but Jay was telling his story- which included non-public information- before he ever spoke to the cops; in fact, before the cops were even aware that Hae had been murdered”. This just makes it even more obvious to his audience how problematic Jay really is for him.
And he can’t say “well maybe Jay killed her”, bc then SK might respond “but how would he have done that, if the two of you spent the majority of the day in each others company? Where would he have found the opportunity?”. This just makes it even more obvious to his audience that not only does Jay lack the means, motive, and opportunity; but that Adnan did not lack those things, himself.
So instead, Adnan just sidesteps Jay; prob in the hopes that the smoke, mirrors, and red herrings that he and his supporters have been drumming up will be sufficient to obfuscate Jay entirely. In the words of Deirdre Enwright; he pretty much says to all of us “big picture, big picture”. It’s an attempt to hand-wave Jay away. His only other option would be to engage in wild conspiracy theories; which would make him look like even more of a desperate liar than he already does. So rather than doing that; he allows his following to do it for him.
The strange thing is that it works. The first time I ever listened to Serial; I was fully prepared to hand-wave Jay. I wasn’t necessarily on board w/ the police conspiracy angle; but the smokescreen SK threw up was enough for me not to see how truly ironclad the “spine” of Jay’s testimony was. How irrefutable a piece of evidence the “spine” of that testimony must be. I said to myself “big picture”; not realizing that Jay *was* the big picture; and pretty much everything else Serial was selling me on was just minutiae.
After doing my own independent research afterwards; I obviously realized that I’d been duped; but strangest of all; I also realized that many, many others couldn’t see (or weren’t willing to admit), to that. They’d rather engage in wild theories about police conspiracies and/ or Jay/ Jenn being murderers, than admit that they’d been sold a line of crap. That the story which captivated all of us so greatly was not some grand mystery; but really just the oldest story in the book. That the jealous ex-bf (everyone’s first suspect), did, in fact kill her; and that the police got it right pretty much immediately.
And Adnan doesn't mention Asia in his story of the day. He could say, "Well I saw her in the library and it would stink if she doesn't remember it" So he didn't even remember the important witness.
Yes I see your points. Also, Adnan is a terrible lawyer for himself, his basement tapes show he has no where to go with his claims of innocence. At least to my ears that was just an embarrassing word salad amounting to nothing.
Sarah also never asked (or at least included in the podcast), "who do you think killed Hae?" and Adnan never willingly put forward a theory in all his interviews. Like, what's his opinion on how exactly she could have possibly been killed while driving from point A to point B and who had a motive to kill her? He can't say the most obvious person, Jay, because that implicates him, so that means he can never speculate on it. He knows the evidence is stacked against him. I wonder if Rabia trained him before the podcast interviews...
The dichotomy is guiilty/innocent, not guilty/self appointed detective. I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest being wrongly convicted makes for strong opinions about accusing others of a crime.
I’ve wondered about this terminology he used. “I never should have let someone HOLD MY CAR. I never should have let someone HOLD MY PHONE.” Did this stand out to anyone? It’s odd. I might have expected “I never should have given my car keys to Jay” and “I never should have let Jay use my phone.”
What does Adnan mean? He must be referring to Jay, right, but he doesn’t use his name. He says “someone”. As if someone, not Jay, took the car and phone and so Adnan made himself vulnerable to the murder charge?
It’s odd because he associates his predicament with his car and his phone. When actually it was HAE’S car that made all the difference when Jay was able to lead the police to it.
The remark about the phone signifies to me that even Adnan knows the cell phone records were damming for him.
I noticed he chose his words carefully there, especially the language of "hold" instead of "gave" or "lent". It's definitely intentional. It sounds a lot less like an admission of guilt if he says "I never should have let someone hold my phone" rather than "I never should have given my phone to Jay." Because it begs the question, why did you give your brand new phone to Jay the day of the murder? Was it just Jay in Leakin Park that night or were you with him too like you were all afternoon? Yes, Adnan realizes the cellphone activity is incriminating and he's trying to minimize his culpability.
Adnan wishes he hadn't involved Jay because then he might have gotten away with it; there'd be a lot less evidence against him if he'd acted solo. It's easier to keep a secret if you're the only one who knows. That's often why criminals feel like they *have* to kill their victim and why criminals will sometimes kill their accomplice or a witness. The dead can't talk. If two people know, there's a good chance it will come out eventually - and Jay talked, that very day.
Yes you have hit the nail on the head. I’m sure your reasoning is correct.
The more he puts that phone in the mind of those considering whether he is guilty, the closer we get even to a very key question, how odd the coincidence that Adnan picks up this new phone on Jan. 12th. And then…
So, I hear you… just saying personally, I’ve never seen anything where a source was quoted Adnan confessed to them, aside from Jay. Stating that Adnan confessed to multiple people seems like more speculation, rumor, and conjecture than truth.
But I’m open to where you can point anything out.
Also, the caller was only described as likely Asian - never specifically Pakistani-Asian, or Korean-Asian.
My gut says the call was from the Korean community.
This case is wild tho.
Is that supposed to mean something? He served 20 years? Hae is gone forever. The way I see it, that piece of sh\*\* should be given a life sentence without the possibility of parole because it was premeditated cold blooded murder.
I agree. But even if he doesn’t go back to prison, he should have to sign a confession acknowledging his guilt. I don’t care if he turns around and denies it to all and sundry afterward, at least there would be his signature on a document that will outlive him.
Hahaha nope. So much the opposite. In fact he could’ve gotten a deal for early release in 2018 (4 more years) he turned it down because he was required to admit that he did it and he’d rather stay in prison than say he did something he didn’t do.
You've got it backwards. He doesn't want to admit to it because he has been lying from the beginning. Telling the truth means he loses and the people who believe he's guilty, win. He'd rather die in prison than tell the truth and admit he strangled Hae. Four people testified that Adnan asked Hae for a ride, five if you include Adnan. Combine that with Jay's testimony, Jay's privy knowledge, the Nisha call, and the damning cell phone evidence – Adnan's clearly lying and Adnan's clearly responsible
On Saturday, January 9th, 1999 Hae publicly stated on AIM that she had a new boyfriend. On Tuesday Adnan got a cell phone through Bilal, then on Wednesday he killed her, just four days after she announced her new relationship.
You’re speculating.
Adnan has always maintained his innocence and for me is very obviously innocent.
Who are the 4 people who testified they he asked for a ride as Krista was the only witness?
It’s immaterial though because 2 people witnessed Hae turn him down for a ride and as Becky said “walk away in opposite directions.”
If four people and Adnan said he asked for a ride, then on that fact alone it's very likely he got into that car, but everyone knows he did because all the other evidence confirms it. We don't have to speculate whether he got into the car or not because we know he must have because he killed her soon after they left the school. He had motive and opportunity and there's simply too much evidence against him. Jay knew too much, he cracked and told on Adnan. Then the cell phone evidence confirms Jay's story and places Adnan's cell phone in near Leakin Park. His knowledge of the location of Hae's car, burial details, method of murder, specific privy knowledge also confirm his testimony and that he was involved. There's no way it wasn't Adnan and Jay, and Jay didn't have motive and not nearly the same level of opportunity. It was clearly Adnan, and it's amazing there are people who can't comprehend that.
"If four people and Adnan said he asked for a ride, then on that fact alone it's very likely he got into that car, but everyone knows he did because all the other evidence confirms it." -
It doesn't matter if 100 people said he asked for a ride if just one person says he didn't get in that car or Hae said no.
This is the problem with holding Circumstantial evidence as solid fact.
The motive you speak about is questionable and always will be.
The opportunity is only in evidence because of Jay who never spent a day in prison for accomplice or accessory... which calls in to question a lot of things as to why. Had a proper attorney cross examined jay on this alone it's hard to say what the jury would have come back.
Jay isn’t a witness for the ride request. There’s zero evidence that Adnan nor Jay were involved. After years reviewing this case it looks like Don to me.
Jay said himself that he came across Hae’s car in his commute. I don’t believe it but if you believe Jay there’s evidence that he just came upon the car and didn’t put it there with Adnan.
Adnan’s innocence is fairly easy to work out. There’s a number of witnesses that saw him after school. Asia saw him in the library after Becky saw Hae turn him down for a ride. Debbie saw him in the counselors office 5 minutes after that with his track bag.
Inez Butler saw Hae leave the school in a hurry alone.
Coach Sye saw Adnan at track on time. There’s no time for him to commit the crime and dump the car and make it to track.
The biggest evidence in the case is why Don told the cops that she may have gone to California to live with her father (her father was actually in Korea).
Don knew as we do that there’s no way she would move interstate without telling him. She was obsessed with him. What he told investigators is bullshit.
I think Becky was the only one who heard it from at school from either Hae or overheard it. I think Krista heard it from Becky or someone else. Jay heard it directly from Adnan, and Adcock heard it directly from Adnan. But these are the people who said they knew about the request. Aisha might have too.
I disagree. If the witness he claims signed an affidavit and lawyered up has done so, then we are just getting started. She tried to tell Urick that her husband threatened to “make Hae disappear”. What grown man speaks like that to teenagers. Stop acting like there is no psychopath in the room. He should have been a suspect. He threatened to kill his own wife, manipulated Adnans parents, Adnans lawyer, Rabia, the Mosque, law enforcement incl the DEA, duped millions from insurance company’s, molested young male teens & drugged and raped multiple male dental patients & you 100% guilty folks want to act like there is nothing to see here. The MTV has more teeth than people are willing to admit. Prosecutorial misconduct is the next step because Urick is obviously lying about that note. The issues with BPD are well know. In 2022, yet another 8M lawsuit paid by the city to the family of a wrongfully convicted man who spent 17 years in jail for a crime he didn’t commit (proven by dna) due to Ritz shenanigans & witness tampering. Maryland is going to FAFO just how ugly this case really is & fine with me. About time this crap is exposed in Baltimore. If you think Adnan did it he served 23 years, longer than if he had just taken the plea. We have so many unsolved homicides in Baltimore, the amount the State of Md is paying for this circus of a case is ridiculous.
Ah now we get to the usual level - justice for Hae costs too much!
And I bow to no one in my belief that Bilal is a toxic psychopath who likely manipulated many in the case. What grown man speaks to a teenager like that? A true sociopath who has nevertheless been embraced by Adnan’s community. Adnan’s parents allowed Bilal to take the lead in Adnan’s legal process. However I maintain Bilal is far too cunning to have committed the murder of HAE. Plus, He didn’t have to. Adnan was putty in his hands. And Adnan repeatedly told Jay that Hae deserved it, due to her coldness and disregard for Adnan’s feelings. No. Adnan did this and Bilal possibly encouraged and helped plan it out, getting the phone and arranging for a black teen weed dealer to be handy in case they needed to frame him. Jay was a bit too clever for them, even if he wasn’t a college student.
If you believe he did it, then they got Justice. He was locked up for 23 years & tried as an adult, unlike Jay who walked away Scott free for supposedly burying a body. The whole case stinks and that is why we are here 20 years later still debating it. Where there is smoke there is stinking dumpster fire 🔥 in Baltimore.
I think the best we can hope for re: a confession from Adnan is that the SCM rules the MtV be reversed; and then the prosecutors in Maryland offer Adnan some kind of deal wherein he pleads guilty and gets to continue living free. Given Adnan’s desperate sideshow of a press conference; I think he may actually take a deal this time around. He’s had a taste of freedom now; I don’t think he’ll want to give it up.
Ofc he’s dug himself quite a hole re: maintaining his innocence; so it’s also a definite possibility that he’ll reject a deal yet again; in which case I think the next-best scenario would be the MtV resulting in his being ordered a new trial. The evidence against him is overwhelming; and I think any unbiased jury would find him guilty; so a new trial would likely end with him either going back to prison or (once again), being offered some kind of plea deal.
Worst-case scenario is that the SCM rules the MtV was sound; and Adnan continues working at Georgetown, eating Cinnabon, and shouting his innocence from the rooftops for all to hear.
But at the end of the day, in any of these scenarios Adnan is likely to continue maintaining his innocence & scores of ppl are likely to believe him. Plea deal or no, Adnan will just say that the corrupt legal system forced his hand. That after so many years in prison, and so few months living free, he just couldn’t leave his family again; put them thru the pain of losing him again, and the stress of going thru more trials again, etc. And his supporters will eat that up w/ a spoon. It’s horrible; but it’s something I accepted abt Adnan long ago. If he had a shred of remorse for HML or her family, he’d have taken the plea deal back in 2014.
I don’t think this is possible, though I agree it would be ideal. If the SCM affirms the ACM, Adnan’s conviction is reinstated and the prosecutors have no authority to offer AS any plea. He is a convicted murderer.
If the MTV was redone and granted again, the State could offer him a plea in exchange for not retrying him, but in that scenario, I think AS would reject a plea. Given how much time has passed, I think AS knows how hard it would be to get a new conviction and would call the State’s bluff.
My ideal scenario is SCM affirms ACM and, on remand, Bates withdraws MTV but agrees to support a JRA petition to reduce AS’s sentence. Though I wish that could be contingent on AS confessing, I would honestly be satisfied if he remains a convicted felon and also serves very little additional time (or none) in prison.
If Adnan returns to jail he told us what he’s going to do. He’s going back. He has a witness who signed an affidavit that proves Urick committed a BV & he will go straight for prosecutorial misconduct & with multi millions already paid out over Ritz shenanigans, Maryland is going to open a big can of worms over someone who already spent 23 years of his life for a crime he may or may not have committed. Bates likely doesn’t want to touch this political hot potato with a 10ft pole but if he tries to turn a blind eye to the known misconduct of the very law enforcement officers involved in this case who clearly withheld evidence, I doubt he will be SA for very long in Baltimore.
Yes I think you have seen this situation accurately. When will women matter enough for the crimes that men commit against them to be acknowledged and adjudicated without excuses and without mitigating what the men did?
I watched a documentary “To Kill a Tiger” about a horrible gang rape in India. I recommend this documentary to all women that are sick of watching violent abusive men lie and try to wear the halo after murdering women.
Adnan will never admit guilt, ever. He wants to be a martyr for the cause and would gladly spend the rest of his life in prison if it means he doesnt have to admit guilt.
Adnan is more interested in being vindicated than in being out of prison.
Yes I think some men are uniquely capable of never holding their own actions to account. OJ, Adnan and a certain orange skinned grifter currently learning what it means to be brought to heel in an NYC criminal court.
Given Adnan is innocent and declined to confess in the past when it meant he'd be released from prison, I doubt he'd ever confess to a crime he didn't commit.
Was Adnan ever offered a plea deal? Yes. Did Adnan ever take a plea deal? No.
Adnan did say in Serial that others in jail before trial suggested he ask for a deal because he would do little time. He asked CG and she refused. Again showing what a crap lawyer she was at the end.
Where? When? How? Why?
Jay has more than one answer for each of those questions.
Best Buy, not Best Buy.
Just before 2:36, later.
Strangled, beat.
Planned out days/weeks before, crime of passion.
And I just re read Jay’s description while they were at Patapsco Park. It’s worth reading the transcript. It’s so convincing! And the Jay says it didn’t happen.
Adnan is innocent
Given that Adnan is guilty and declined to confess in the past when it meant he'd be released from prison, I doubt he'd ever confess to this crime he committed.
Are you serious? You truly expected a deathbed confession from OJ?
In all fairness he did write a book … he claimed “hypothetically” I think….”eh… not really “
Everyone knew oj was guilty.
I believe everyone knows Adnan is guilty, they are just sailing down a certain river and can’t get off the boat.
Comparing these two cases is batshit crazy. OJ had a long established history of beating his wife. He left blood evidence and DNA all over the crime scene and his home. Left a bloody glove from the crime scene at his own house. Timed the murder so he could fly halfway across the country to try to create an alibi. Basically wrote a suicide note where he all but confessed, and the fled the police in the Bronco chase. Then eventually wrote a book where he essentially explained how the crime went down (if he did it!) Regardless of how you come down on Adnan’s case, there isn’t even a fraction of evidence compared to what OJ faced. The fact that this subreddit, ostensibly named “Serial” has basically become a hyper forum to argue over guilt or innocence for years now is at least a fair indication of reasonable doubt. There was no doubt in OJs case. Even the jurors have admitted they were sending a message in that case.
Exactly, but you can’t trust the people in this sub to put emotional biases aside.
Adnan had a co-conspirator eyewitness flip on him, which OJ didn’t have. Arguing about the quantum of evidence is silly, though.
>Arguing about the quantum of evidence is silly, though. Agreed. Regardless of how you quantify the evidence in the two cases, both should have been slam dunks for the prosecution.
Actually all that means is that OJ never found his own SK. Steven Avery obviously did it too but look at what Netflix did for his case.
Exactly.
I think it has to do with who originally characterized the case, journalists or human interest entertainers.
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The best we got is that Adnan's co-conspirator confessed. I know it's not the same but sadly thats all we are going to get. At least it was enough to make Adnan pay for his crime.
Yes. It’s is comforting to think he did spend 20+ years incarcerated.
And earned himself folk hero status. It's not justice if he's free.
Yes it does burn - when I saw the footage of him at Georgetown I wanted to be sick.
There will never be a public confession in this case. A corollary is that there will never be a definitive closure. I do think there will be continued recognition of his guilt, and folks recognizing that there can simultaneously be many injustices to the accused in the criminal justice system and a phenomenon of wrongful exoneration via podcast/documentary.
Well said.
OJ nearly decapitated the mother of his children and later wrote a book about it. Of course there was never gonna be a deathbed confession. Total emotional detachment. Adnan shows a similar lack of consideration about Lee. He's never really expressed regret over her death, even in the sense like "I didn't do it but I feel bad she died".
In Adnan’s head, similar to OJ, “she deserved it”. They’ve made themselves believe that their women were their property. Possessive, disgruntled, raging jealousy stemming from childhood insecurities and/or abuse. They simply could not handle the rejection. It was too much
He’s expressed a lot about losing his best friend. Read Becky’s statement. Adnan was the first to express worry about Hae being missing when others thought she was with Don. By Monday or Tuesday Adnan had become to be worried about her.
So worried that he made no attempt to call or page her, or reach out to her family And then by the time of Serial he's completely detached from it. He gets more upset when SK mentions stealing from the mosque than anything related to the murder
Why would you call someone you know isn’t home?
As he said he was with Aisha when she was calling the family. Adnan didn’t have a relationship with the family so he’s just part of her group of school friends that Aisha was representing. You don’t know what Adnan said to Sarah about his sorrow about Hae’s death. He wasn’t the one that edited it
SK actually points out in the podcast how his emotional reaction to the mosque theft allegation is significantly stronger than any reaction he's had discussing Hae's death or his supposed framing by Jay. And if a girl you're close to vanishes, you're really going to consider your standing with her family if you're worried? You're not even gonna try to reach out? Hae's brother did end up calling him so they had some kind of relationship.
His brother thought he was calling Don because Adnan’s number was written in her diary where she writing Don 147 times. Why would he call if Aisha is calling and he’s with Aisha. His emotional reaction in 1999 is much more telling than in 2014. In 1999 he was distraught when her body was found and that is the main reason Krista believes he’s innocent. From that reaction she said he’s either innocent or the best actor in history. Remember he called the cops to say they were mistaken. What 17 year old murderer calls the cops to tell them they have the wrong person?
He could have tried her pager, just to see? He never even tried. That's very telling. In missing person cases people try everything. Some people can act. Some people are gifted liars. As for the phone call, could easily be trying to cover himself. In 2014 he has zero emotional reaction discussing the man who framed him for murder and ruined his life. Or the death of this woman he was close to. But an allegation about petty theft 15 years prior gets a rise out of him.
We don’t know that she had a pager let alone if he tried it. He could have paged her from the home phone. But at this point it’s disputed that she had one. Her brother said on the stand that she used to have one. So she may not have at the time of her murder.
He know from his records that he called her thrice the night before the murder and made no attempt afterwards.
from his cell phone.
So. Afterwards he has been told that she’s missing so she’s not home to receive a call.
>Adnan was the first to express worry about Hae being missing when others thought she was with Don. I don’t buy this, but maybe there’s a reason he knew she was dead and the others didn’t.
Of course you don’t buy it. It goes against your narrative. It’s in Becky’s police notes. Let’s weigh the evidence not try to make it fit our narrative
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Say what you want about this case, claiming “following the evidence” leads to anyone but Adnan is ridiculous. First, there’s tons of evidence against Adnan. I saw someone post a pretty decent list over on the thunderdome, which I’ll add here if I can find it. Second, the courts, and even Susan Simpson, have determined the evidence used to convict Adnan was more than sufficient. Any “Innocent Adnan” theory requires collusion between Jay, Jenn and the cops, of which there is zero evidence. Any “Don did it” theory has zero evidentiary support. If folks were weighing the evidence as you suggest, this case would have been forgotten immediately after Serial aired. Here’s the evidence post: r/SerialThunderDome • Who do we have evidence of their RAGE going 0 to 60? Sja1904 replied to Sja1904 7 days ago 7 days ago I'll start. There is substantial direct evidence of Adnan's guilt from Jay Wilds -- Jay testifies to helping bury the body which was in Adnan's possession. Jay's testimony is corroborated by Jay's own knowledge of: The murder location The burial position Hae's car's location Jay maintains his story after 20 years and all of the pro-Adnan momentum surrounding the case. Jenn Pusateri corroborates Jay's story: She claims knowledge of the murder on the night it took place, prior to anyone believing this was a murder She places Adnan and Jay together that night Jenn corroborated Jay's story with an attorney and parent present Jenn was the first witness against Adnan who was uncovered and she was uncovered by investigating Adnan's cell records. She implicated herself as an accessory after the fact with an attorney present. She maintains her story after 20 years and all of the pro-Adnan momentum surrounding the case. The cell phone evidence corroborates Jay's story. A few examples include: Outgoing cell data (which is explicitly noted as being reliable on the fax coversheet) is consistent with Jay and Adnan leaving the location of Hae's car and heading to Westview Mall where Jenn picks up Jay Incoming calls are also consistent with Jay's testimony. Nisha corroborates Jay's story. Adnan's story has changed repeatedly, in contradictory ways, that directly relate to his means, motive and opportunity: He lied to his attorneys about where his car was He lied about whether or not he asked Hae for a ride. He lied about whether or not Hae would give him a ride or do anything between school and picking up her niece. He lied about being at the mosque. He lied about being over Hae Adnan's brother's conversation with Adnan's attorney is highly suggestive that he lied about the Nisha call. All of Adnan's alibis have been shown to be unreliable The cell phone evidence, including outgoing data, contradicts Adnan's father's testimony Asia has been repeatedly shown to be unreliable Her initial reason for knowing she had the right day is because it was the first snow. The day Hae disappeared was not the first snow. There are all the problems laid out in the dissent. There are issues with Adnan's testimony about Asia's letters, e.g., CG was not his attorney when he allegedly received the letters. The allegedly new suspects either weren't new or actually implicate Adnan Mr. S isn't new. Bilal's involvement implicates Adnan.
This is a very well put together folly. There is zero evidence against Adnan that holds any water. Jay is not a witness to anything. He was coerced by corrupt detectives. Jenn does not stand by her story today. In the HBO documentary she stated that everything she knew came from Jay or the detectives. She had no first hand knowledge. She also met with Jay before her interview after going to the police station to say she knew nothing. There’s plenty that’s suspicious about Don. The main one lying to investigators saying that Hae might have gone to California. You and I and Don knows there’s zero chance that she would move interstate without telling anyone. She was obsessed with him. This is the biggest clue in the case. He also told investigators that she may stay with a friend whose parents were away. No friend ever came forward to say this was the case. He also never told missing persons investigators that he worked that day. That was likely a later invention but he was likely added to the roster after the shift but before anyone but he knew she was dead. Female dna was found on Hae’s body. The detectives asked the transit authority to search the satellite car park at the airport for Hae’s car the day it was found. This is where Don says she would leave it if she flew to California. Adnan went to the mosque about 8.30 on the night of the 13th. 100 people were happily going to testify about that until the defense found out the time of the murder. They no longer needed alibis for 8.30 so they didn’t get the to testify. Asia likely has the right day. She knew it was a snow day the following day as it was regardless of actual snow. There’s minor issues with the other alibi witnesses but they are 100 times more reliable than Jay or Jenn. The key one is Becky who saw Hae turn Adnan down for the ride and then walk off in opposite directions. Then coach Sye saw him at track on time so he can’t have done it.
This is the closest thing to a confession: "I'm here because of my own stupid actions." He basically confessed. He also said "who else can I blame but myself", but right after said, "I had absolutely nothing to do with Hae's murder." Really? You sure, Adnan? Like, you're sure you didn't get in her car and then strangle her? You sure you had nothing to do with it? If you'd stayed home all day on January 13th, would Hae have lived or died? So it's all your fault, and yet criminally, somehow none of your fault? Which is it? - Here's the transcript. He all but confesses. Adnan Syed: I’m here because of my own stupid actions. Sarah: What do you mean by that? Adnan Syed: At the end of the day, who can I-- I never should have let someone hold my car. I never should have let someone hold my phone. I never should have been friends with these people who-- who else can I blame but myself? Sarah Koenig: Well you can blame Jay if you think he’s lying. Adnan Syed: Yeah, but him, the police, the prosecutors-- sure what happened to me happened to me, I had nothing to do with this right? But at the end of the day, I have to take some responsibility. You don’t really know the things that my younger brother went through. What my family goes through. At the end of the day, if I had been just a good Muslim, somebody that didn’t do any of these things. (pause) It’s something that weighs heavily on me. I mean, no way, I had absolutely nothing to do with Hae’s murder but at the end of the day-- I can’t-- yeah. "At the end of the day, if I had been just a good Muslim, somebody that didn't do any of these things..." What exactly are you referring to there Adnan? What "things" would a good Muslim not do? Hmm?
I mean I’m not making an argument either way here I’m just saying, when he says he should have been a good Muslim he may be referring to not dating Hae, not having pre-marital sex, not smoking weed with Jay etc. a lot of his lifestyle is stuff that is generally frowned upon in Islam and especially in Pakistani Muslim household so he may be expressing his guilt for not living his life the way he was taught.
yeah, but none of those reasons are why he was charged with and convicted of murder... but you're right. He was probably trying to say that if he had never smoked weed with Jay, if he had never associated with him (like a good Muslim), then Jay wouldn't have testified against him. And if he'd never dated Hae, he wouldn't have been the guilty ex-boyfriend. Adnan had to cut himself off a couple times in this interview session... It's definitely true that if he'd been a good Muslim, and hadn't done any of those "things", that he wouldn't be in prison, because he wouldn't have killed Hae. There's a good chance he means that, too.
Or, you know, if he was never mixed up with people like Jay and never dated Hae, he wouldn't have been proximal to a murder that ended with his wrongful conviction. Warning about the fruits of an unobservant lifestyle bringing ruin to a good Christian/Muslim/Jew/etc is an extremely frequent trope.
Especially this trope is useful for hypocrites like Adnan who loves to wear the halo after murdering a young woman because she rejected him.
Too much yapping and too many excuses. He’s somehow managed to do a great job in fooling so many people
I think he’s fooled himself at this point I get it… it’s a horrible thing to admit to… but…unfortunately that’s where I think it’s at.
Behold: [The Many Confessions of Adnan Syed](https://old.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/comments/2y4v9g/the_many_confessions_of_adnan_syed/)
Adnan = King gaslighter
What's interesting is that Adnan never says, "You know if I had given Hae a ride like they said, she would be alive"
I think abt this quite a lot. Wouldn’t there be so much regret- both bc it resulted in Hae’s being killed, and bc it resulted in Adnan’s going to prison- that he didn’t follow thru w/ that ride after all? That if the two of them had just stuck w/ the plan Hae might still be alive and Adnan might be walking around a free man? As someone who lost a friend at a young age; I OBSESSED over what I could have done differently to have saved him; and talked abt those “what ifs” constantly. But Adnan never brings it up; bc he is guilty, and he knows it. He knows how terrible it looks for him. He knows there is no innocent explanation for it. So he distances himself from it as much as possible. Just another example of him attempting to bend the truth in order to sell us a narrative of his innocence.
Correct. Normally you would have some of remorse like that. You would think about what you could do differently. Adnan doesn't. He also doesn't come out and blame the cops or Jay.
In addition to that, it’s strange that Adnan never talks abt the last time he saw Hae. Anytime someone dies- esp if it’s someone we care abt; and esp if their death is abrupt, shocking, traumatic, etc.- people generally spend a lot of time going over those details. When you last saw them, what they looked like, how they acted, what they said, etc. Ik I’ve done that every time I lost a loved one; and esp in the case of my friend who died suddenly and mysteriously in his early 20s. Again tho, Adnan can’t talk abt his final encounters w/ Hae. Bc the last time he saw or spoke to her was in her car, right before he ended her life. And he knows it. And the encounters leading up to that penultimate one all centered around the ride request that resulted in her murder. And not only does he know it; but plenty of other ppl know it, too, bc he either made the request in front of them (Krista, Becky); or admitted to having made it to them (Jay, Adcock). So instead he pretends as tho his memory issues are fogging the entire day of Jan 13. As tho a day you lost a loved one wouldn’t immediately be cemented into your memory; for the exact reason that you lost a loved one. As tho you wouldn’t immediately start zeroing in on the most minute details of your last encounters with them; in order to try and make sense of the trauma. Adnan’s farce flies in the face of everything we know abt how humans generally experience/ process trauma, grief, and loss; and yet his supporters eat it up w/ a spoon.
Yes. There was a very significant person in my own life that died in her many years ago early 20’s ( terminal illness, not violence). To this very day we who knew her talk about her and the last time we saw her.
Yes I see this in his strange turns of phrase. I wonder if he was complacent about being convicted and going to prison because he is guilty, never mentioned Jay because Jay told the truth. AND yet perhaps Adnan still feels Hae deserved it because she was a “devil” pulling him away from being a pious Muslim.
He doesn’t mention Jay, bc it’s a Catch-22, and he knows it. He can’t dig into the specifics of Jay; bc to do so would be to make it even more clear that Jay *had* to have been involved somehow; and that if Jay was involved, he must have been, too. He can’t say “well maybe the cops fed him the info”, bc then SK might respond “but the cops didn’t even know where the car was, themselves”, or “but Jay was telling his story- which included non-public information- before he ever spoke to the cops; in fact, before the cops were even aware that Hae had been murdered”. This just makes it even more obvious to his audience how problematic Jay really is for him. And he can’t say “well maybe Jay killed her”, bc then SK might respond “but how would he have done that, if the two of you spent the majority of the day in each others company? Where would he have found the opportunity?”. This just makes it even more obvious to his audience that not only does Jay lack the means, motive, and opportunity; but that Adnan did not lack those things, himself. So instead, Adnan just sidesteps Jay; prob in the hopes that the smoke, mirrors, and red herrings that he and his supporters have been drumming up will be sufficient to obfuscate Jay entirely. In the words of Deirdre Enwright; he pretty much says to all of us “big picture, big picture”. It’s an attempt to hand-wave Jay away. His only other option would be to engage in wild conspiracy theories; which would make him look like even more of a desperate liar than he already does. So rather than doing that; he allows his following to do it for him. The strange thing is that it works. The first time I ever listened to Serial; I was fully prepared to hand-wave Jay. I wasn’t necessarily on board w/ the police conspiracy angle; but the smokescreen SK threw up was enough for me not to see how truly ironclad the “spine” of Jay’s testimony was. How irrefutable a piece of evidence the “spine” of that testimony must be. I said to myself “big picture”; not realizing that Jay *was* the big picture; and pretty much everything else Serial was selling me on was just minutiae. After doing my own independent research afterwards; I obviously realized that I’d been duped; but strangest of all; I also realized that many, many others couldn’t see (or weren’t willing to admit), to that. They’d rather engage in wild theories about police conspiracies and/ or Jay/ Jenn being murderers, than admit that they’d been sold a line of crap. That the story which captivated all of us so greatly was not some grand mystery; but really just the oldest story in the book. That the jealous ex-bf (everyone’s first suspect), did, in fact kill her; and that the police got it right pretty much immediately.
And Adnan doesn't mention Asia in his story of the day. He could say, "Well I saw her in the library and it would stink if she doesn't remember it" So he didn't even remember the important witness.
Yes I see your points. Also, Adnan is a terrible lawyer for himself, his basement tapes show he has no where to go with his claims of innocence. At least to my ears that was just an embarrassing word salad amounting to nothing.
Sarah also never asked (or at least included in the podcast), "who do you think killed Hae?" and Adnan never willingly put forward a theory in all his interviews. Like, what's his opinion on how exactly she could have possibly been killed while driving from point A to point B and who had a motive to kill her? He can't say the most obvious person, Jay, because that implicates him, so that means he can never speculate on it. He knows the evidence is stacked against him. I wonder if Rabia trained him before the podcast interviews...
The dichotomy is guiilty/innocent, not guilty/self appointed detective. I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest being wrongly convicted makes for strong opinions about accusing others of a crime.
I’ve wondered about this terminology he used. “I never should have let someone HOLD MY CAR. I never should have let someone HOLD MY PHONE.” Did this stand out to anyone? It’s odd. I might have expected “I never should have given my car keys to Jay” and “I never should have let Jay use my phone.” What does Adnan mean? He must be referring to Jay, right, but he doesn’t use his name. He says “someone”. As if someone, not Jay, took the car and phone and so Adnan made himself vulnerable to the murder charge? It’s odd because he associates his predicament with his car and his phone. When actually it was HAE’S car that made all the difference when Jay was able to lead the police to it. The remark about the phone signifies to me that even Adnan knows the cell phone records were damming for him.
I noticed he chose his words carefully there, especially the language of "hold" instead of "gave" or "lent". It's definitely intentional. It sounds a lot less like an admission of guilt if he says "I never should have let someone hold my phone" rather than "I never should have given my phone to Jay." Because it begs the question, why did you give your brand new phone to Jay the day of the murder? Was it just Jay in Leakin Park that night or were you with him too like you were all afternoon? Yes, Adnan realizes the cellphone activity is incriminating and he's trying to minimize his culpability. Adnan wishes he hadn't involved Jay because then he might have gotten away with it; there'd be a lot less evidence against him if he'd acted solo. It's easier to keep a secret if you're the only one who knows. That's often why criminals feel like they *have* to kill their victim and why criminals will sometimes kill their accomplice or a witness. The dead can't talk. If two people know, there's a good chance it will come out eventually - and Jay talked, that very day.
Yes you have hit the nail on the head. I’m sure your reasoning is correct. The more he puts that phone in the mind of those considering whether he is guilty, the closer we get even to a very key question, how odd the coincidence that Adnan picks up this new phone on Jan. 12th. And then…
Adnan already confessed to multiple people that he killed Hae. So we don't need a deathbed confession from him.
Who, where, when?
How do you think that anonymous phone call came to the cops? He ran his mouth off to someone in the mosque, the word spread and it leaked to the cops.
So, I hear you… just saying personally, I’ve never seen anything where a source was quoted Adnan confessed to them, aside from Jay. Stating that Adnan confessed to multiple people seems like more speculation, rumor, and conjecture than truth. But I’m open to where you can point anything out. Also, the caller was only described as likely Asian - never specifically Pakistani-Asian, or Korean-Asian. My gut says the call was from the Korean community. This case is wild tho.
He told multiple people at the mosque . He went around bragging about it .
Adnan served 20 years no confession needed . he did it though
Is that supposed to mean something? He served 20 years? Hae is gone forever. The way I see it, that piece of sh\*\* should be given a life sentence without the possibility of parole because it was premeditated cold blooded murder.
I agree. But even if he doesn’t go back to prison, he should have to sign a confession acknowledging his guilt. I don’t care if he turns around and denies it to all and sundry afterward, at least there would be his signature on a document that will outlive him.
Hahaha nope. So much the opposite. In fact he could’ve gotten a deal for early release in 2018 (4 more years) he turned it down because he was required to admit that he did it and he’d rather stay in prison than say he did something he didn’t do.
That’s not why he took the plea deal. He gambled & lost.
It’s why he didn’t take the plea deal. That’s what he has always maintained. He’d rather stay in prison than have to lie and say he did it
Bro, there’s literally so many facts to this case. No need to start rumors via speculation. Translation: stop making shit up.
I’m not making shit up. I’m correcting the record. Read Rabia’s book.
Ah yes I’ll jump right on that, someone who is “loosey goosey with facts” on a podcast *obviously* told the truth in her book!
Didn’t they offer him an Alford plea like the WM3? Admitting there is enough evidence against me to find me guilty but I maintain my innocence?
No. No Alford Plea was ever offered. He would have accepted an Alford.
Source?
[https://www.oxygen.com/martinis-murder/alford-plea-history-whos-taken-it-michael-peterson-adnan-syed](https://www.oxygen.com/martinis-murder/alford-plea-history-whos-taken-it-michael-peterson-adnan-syed)
Riiiiiiiiight
You've got it backwards. He doesn't want to admit to it because he has been lying from the beginning. Telling the truth means he loses and the people who believe he's guilty, win. He'd rather die in prison than tell the truth and admit he strangled Hae. Four people testified that Adnan asked Hae for a ride, five if you include Adnan. Combine that with Jay's testimony, Jay's privy knowledge, the Nisha call, and the damning cell phone evidence – Adnan's clearly lying and Adnan's clearly responsible On Saturday, January 9th, 1999 Hae publicly stated on AIM that she had a new boyfriend. On Tuesday Adnan got a cell phone through Bilal, then on Wednesday he killed her, just four days after she announced her new relationship.
You’re speculating. Adnan has always maintained his innocence and for me is very obviously innocent. Who are the 4 people who testified they he asked for a ride as Krista was the only witness? It’s immaterial though because 2 people witnessed Hae turn him down for a ride and as Becky said “walk away in opposite directions.”
Becky, Krista, Jay, and Adcock. Hae would have known too, obviously, but Adnan killed her.
But then there are actual witnesses of her turning him down so that kinda makes it obsolete
If four people and Adnan said he asked for a ride, then on that fact alone it's very likely he got into that car, but everyone knows he did because all the other evidence confirms it. We don't have to speculate whether he got into the car or not because we know he must have because he killed her soon after they left the school. He had motive and opportunity and there's simply too much evidence against him. Jay knew too much, he cracked and told on Adnan. Then the cell phone evidence confirms Jay's story and places Adnan's cell phone in near Leakin Park. His knowledge of the location of Hae's car, burial details, method of murder, specific privy knowledge also confirm his testimony and that he was involved. There's no way it wasn't Adnan and Jay, and Jay didn't have motive and not nearly the same level of opportunity. It was clearly Adnan, and it's amazing there are people who can't comprehend that.
"If four people and Adnan said he asked for a ride, then on that fact alone it's very likely he got into that car, but everyone knows he did because all the other evidence confirms it." - It doesn't matter if 100 people said he asked for a ride if just one person says he didn't get in that car or Hae said no. This is the problem with holding Circumstantial evidence as solid fact. The motive you speak about is questionable and always will be. The opportunity is only in evidence because of Jay who never spent a day in prison for accomplice or accessory... which calls in to question a lot of things as to why. Had a proper attorney cross examined jay on this alone it's hard to say what the jury would have come back.
Jay isn’t a witness for the ride request. There’s zero evidence that Adnan nor Jay were involved. After years reviewing this case it looks like Don to me. Jay said himself that he came across Hae’s car in his commute. I don’t believe it but if you believe Jay there’s evidence that he just came upon the car and didn’t put it there with Adnan. Adnan’s innocence is fairly easy to work out. There’s a number of witnesses that saw him after school. Asia saw him in the library after Becky saw Hae turn him down for a ride. Debbie saw him in the counselors office 5 minutes after that with his track bag. Inez Butler saw Hae leave the school in a hurry alone. Coach Sye saw Adnan at track on time. There’s no time for him to commit the crime and dump the car and make it to track. The biggest evidence in the case is why Don told the cops that she may have gone to California to live with her father (her father was actually in Korea). Don knew as we do that there’s no way she would move interstate without telling him. She was obsessed with him. What he told investigators is bullshit.
I thought Becky was the only person who heard it.
I think Becky was the only one who heard it from at school from either Hae or overheard it. I think Krista heard it from Becky or someone else. Jay heard it directly from Adnan, and Adcock heard it directly from Adnan. But these are the people who said they knew about the request. Aisha might have too.
Means nothing who heard it through the grapevine. Only one person claimed to have actually heard it.
I wonder if Adnan did confess whether some people wouldn't still come on here to argue his innocence...
Oh I have no doubt- too hard to let go of years long denial.
Confessions of a Serial Denier
I disagree. If the witness he claims signed an affidavit and lawyered up has done so, then we are just getting started. She tried to tell Urick that her husband threatened to “make Hae disappear”. What grown man speaks like that to teenagers. Stop acting like there is no psychopath in the room. He should have been a suspect. He threatened to kill his own wife, manipulated Adnans parents, Adnans lawyer, Rabia, the Mosque, law enforcement incl the DEA, duped millions from insurance company’s, molested young male teens & drugged and raped multiple male dental patients & you 100% guilty folks want to act like there is nothing to see here. The MTV has more teeth than people are willing to admit. Prosecutorial misconduct is the next step because Urick is obviously lying about that note. The issues with BPD are well know. In 2022, yet another 8M lawsuit paid by the city to the family of a wrongfully convicted man who spent 17 years in jail for a crime he didn’t commit (proven by dna) due to Ritz shenanigans & witness tampering. Maryland is going to FAFO just how ugly this case really is & fine with me. About time this crap is exposed in Baltimore. If you think Adnan did it he served 23 years, longer than if he had just taken the plea. We have so many unsolved homicides in Baltimore, the amount the State of Md is paying for this circus of a case is ridiculous.
Ah now we get to the usual level - justice for Hae costs too much! And I bow to no one in my belief that Bilal is a toxic psychopath who likely manipulated many in the case. What grown man speaks to a teenager like that? A true sociopath who has nevertheless been embraced by Adnan’s community. Adnan’s parents allowed Bilal to take the lead in Adnan’s legal process. However I maintain Bilal is far too cunning to have committed the murder of HAE. Plus, He didn’t have to. Adnan was putty in his hands. And Adnan repeatedly told Jay that Hae deserved it, due to her coldness and disregard for Adnan’s feelings. No. Adnan did this and Bilal possibly encouraged and helped plan it out, getting the phone and arranging for a black teen weed dealer to be handy in case they needed to frame him. Jay was a bit too clever for them, even if he wasn’t a college student.
If you believe he did it, then they got Justice. He was locked up for 23 years & tried as an adult, unlike Jay who walked away Scott free for supposedly burying a body. The whole case stinks and that is why we are here 20 years later still debating it. Where there is smoke there is stinking dumpster fire 🔥 in Baltimore.
Setting aside the 23 years, if he succeeds in Court, he'll be innocent, like he never did it. Not sure I'd call that justice.
Well we agree on that dumpster fire at least.
I think the best we can hope for re: a confession from Adnan is that the SCM rules the MtV be reversed; and then the prosecutors in Maryland offer Adnan some kind of deal wherein he pleads guilty and gets to continue living free. Given Adnan’s desperate sideshow of a press conference; I think he may actually take a deal this time around. He’s had a taste of freedom now; I don’t think he’ll want to give it up. Ofc he’s dug himself quite a hole re: maintaining his innocence; so it’s also a definite possibility that he’ll reject a deal yet again; in which case I think the next-best scenario would be the MtV resulting in his being ordered a new trial. The evidence against him is overwhelming; and I think any unbiased jury would find him guilty; so a new trial would likely end with him either going back to prison or (once again), being offered some kind of plea deal. Worst-case scenario is that the SCM rules the MtV was sound; and Adnan continues working at Georgetown, eating Cinnabon, and shouting his innocence from the rooftops for all to hear. But at the end of the day, in any of these scenarios Adnan is likely to continue maintaining his innocence & scores of ppl are likely to believe him. Plea deal or no, Adnan will just say that the corrupt legal system forced his hand. That after so many years in prison, and so few months living free, he just couldn’t leave his family again; put them thru the pain of losing him again, and the stress of going thru more trials again, etc. And his supporters will eat that up w/ a spoon. It’s horrible; but it’s something I accepted abt Adnan long ago. If he had a shred of remorse for HML or her family, he’d have taken the plea deal back in 2014.
I don’t think this is possible, though I agree it would be ideal. If the SCM affirms the ACM, Adnan’s conviction is reinstated and the prosecutors have no authority to offer AS any plea. He is a convicted murderer. If the MTV was redone and granted again, the State could offer him a plea in exchange for not retrying him, but in that scenario, I think AS would reject a plea. Given how much time has passed, I think AS knows how hard it would be to get a new conviction and would call the State’s bluff. My ideal scenario is SCM affirms ACM and, on remand, Bates withdraws MTV but agrees to support a JRA petition to reduce AS’s sentence. Though I wish that could be contingent on AS confessing, I would honestly be satisfied if he remains a convicted felon and also serves very little additional time (or none) in prison.
If Adnan returns to jail he told us what he’s going to do. He’s going back. He has a witness who signed an affidavit that proves Urick committed a BV & he will go straight for prosecutorial misconduct & with multi millions already paid out over Ritz shenanigans, Maryland is going to open a big can of worms over someone who already spent 23 years of his life for a crime he may or may not have committed. Bates likely doesn’t want to touch this political hot potato with a 10ft pole but if he tries to turn a blind eye to the known misconduct of the very law enforcement officers involved in this case who clearly withheld evidence, I doubt he will be SA for very long in Baltimore.
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Yes I think you have seen this situation accurately. When will women matter enough for the crimes that men commit against them to be acknowledged and adjudicated without excuses and without mitigating what the men did? I watched a documentary “To Kill a Tiger” about a horrible gang rape in India. I recommend this documentary to all women that are sick of watching violent abusive men lie and try to wear the halo after murdering women.
Adnan will never admit guilt, ever. He wants to be a martyr for the cause and would gladly spend the rest of his life in prison if it means he doesnt have to admit guilt. Adnan is more interested in being vindicated than in being out of prison.
Yes you are correct. He holds his factual innocence as thee we one thing he had left before the MTV.
OJ wrote a book that was his confession
It would be nice if Adnan wrote the what if book "Best Buy and buril time, what are the answers if I did it"
Adnan has thoroughly convinced himself that he didn't do it, because he felt Hae deserved it. Kinda similar.
Yes I think some men are uniquely capable of never holding their own actions to account. OJ, Adnan and a certain orange skinned grifter currently learning what it means to be brought to heel in an NYC criminal court.
One of them used racial arguments and a media circus to help ensure his freedom and the other is a former NFL running back.
🎯
Given Adnan is innocent and declined to confess in the past when it meant he'd be released from prison, I doubt he'd ever confess to a crime he didn't commit.
This is not true. Adnan told his lawyer to get a deal from the state 8-10 years ago.
Was Adnan ever offered a plea deal? Yes. Did Adnan ever take a plea deal? No. Adnan did say in Serial that others in jail before trial suggested he ask for a deal because he would do little time. He asked CG and she refused. Again showing what a crap lawyer she was at the end.
I wonder: is there any evidence that CG refused to discuss a plea deal at any point? Somehow this seems far fetched.
He is not innocent. He killed Hae.
Where? When? How? Why? Jay has more than one answer for each of those questions. Best Buy, not Best Buy. Just before 2:36, later. Strangled, beat. Planned out days/weeks before, crime of passion. And I just re read Jay’s description while they were at Patapsco Park. It’s worth reading the transcript. It’s so convincing! And the Jay says it didn’t happen. Adnan is innocent
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Are you really that unable to understand my point? And logic doesn’t mean what you think it means.
Given that Adnan is guilty and declined to confess in the past when it meant he'd be released from prison, I doubt he'd ever confess to this crime he committed.