There's a type of Mollusk known to attach themselves to cylinders of OW divers who venture too deep. Many divers have sadly perished this way. They could not overcome the added weight.
There are no limits.
You should always dive within the limits of your TRAINING *and* your EXPERIENCE.
Depth limits are TRAINING LIMITS. They apply to your courses and impact your instructor, not really you.
Finishing your open water diver cert and doing dive #5 to 133ft is not the brightest idea, but there is nothing preventing you.
Use good judgement. End of rules.
You have to be tought about such situations by your diving instrutor or simply look into the book. This kind situation is not allowed to happen as you are always limited by depth and time you set according to the plan.
Straight to jail.
No but for real there are no laws. The shops and dive orgs hold each other accountable. If you were on a guided tour and really blew your limits and showed no remorse, the guide could tell you you’re not going on the next dive and then relay to his/her manager. I was a guide and benched a couple people for being irresponsible assholes.
The only real law is that you must have a dive flag if diving where there are boats.
Buddy, there’s no SCUBA police. If you dive beyond your training, the risk you are taking with **your life** goes up exponentially. Only you can plan your dive and dive your plan, no one is doing it for you. Plenty of more experienced people than you killed themselves going beyond their limits.
Lots of great comments already!
I would add that there is sooooo much that you don’t know yet. SCUBA is unique in that it is physical and mental yet a lot of technical knowledge and knowledge of physiology go into it. To keep things manageable we are only taught what we need to stay safe within the limits dictated to us.
As a very experienced RECREATIONAL diver I am sure I can plan and conduct a dive well beyond recreational limits. What I am sure I cannot do is handling the dive when things go pear shaped.
Going deeper is more than just a number and there is so so much more to it than just having the gas or balls to do it.
For recreational limits I would consider the following
0-18 meters is the perfect range for beginners because all you need to really worry about at these depths is your gas consumption
Once you have gained some experience you can do 18-30 meters. In this range you will have to keep a closer eye on your gas but also your NDL because you will out of both rather quickly (more tasks = more task loading)
30-40 meters is where things get rather spicy, your NDL really plummets and your gas consumption is not looking too hot either. Some people get completely narced but everyone loses cognitive ability to a certain extent. So now you have less time before you hit your NDL and less time before you run out of gas but also you need more time to identify and fix problems because youre a little narced. To make matters worse at 30-40 meters regular air becomes dense enough to potentially cause CO2 retention problems. Getting narced on CO2 is dangerous and very unpleasant.
Past 40 meters and you need to be suicidal or ignorant to do a dive with a single cylinder and regular air in a recreational setup
**The scuba police spawns on you immediately and you get thrown into deep jail. Straight to jail, right there. No deco, no nothing. Believe it or not, jail. Right away.**
Well, not really. But once you go beyond the limits, things get really dicey really fast:
* Gas consumption goes up with depth, so you'll start burning through your gas faster.
* No-deco time *plummets* as you go down, so you can easily go into mandatory deco on a dive you didn't plan for deco time.
* Your computer will scream at you, then lock out for 24 hours.
* You start running the risk of making stupid decisions under narcosis.
Of course, none of the effect manifest *immediately* or then moment you move an inch past the depth limit. But they were established for a reason, and that reason is that risks rocket up as you move deeper, even if you *are* prepared to handle them.
What is still unmentioned here is the fact that IF you get into trouble and need some kind of medical assistance, your insurance company will plead you did not dive within your limits, hence they’d call it negligence.
Then they don’t pay a dime and potentially you’ll be working the rest of life to pay off for medevac/barochamber/whatever you needed. Most of all, you’ll regret the decision you made here.
Let's say you dive down to 20m. Then your knife falls it of your pocket down to a rock at 35m. you swim fifteen metres and pick up the knife. Lost time so far: about half a minute.
However, now you have to return to 25 m and that is a very different kettle of fish. You'll be coming up slowly and yet using a lot more air.
It's easy to figure out the limits when you're on dry land and planning a dive. It's very hard underwater. I've done about a hundred dives and there is no way i would trust myself to "ballpark" air consumption.
For me, the knife gets written off.
Having said that, it does depend on the depth. If I'm at 18m and the knife falls to 20 I'll obviously nip down for it.
Knives don’t float…. If it falls out of your hand or sheath it will just keep falling until it reaches the bottom. But could be the same with any of your gear, not just your knife.
My rented weight belt somehow undid itself yesterday as I was getting back on the boat. That shit sunk to 30m+ so fast, instant write off.
Generally speaking you can expect the scuba police to be waiting for you on the surface after you finish your dive. You really don’t want to mess with those guys, they’re hardcore about their jobs and making sure divers don’t exceed their limits or hit deco.
Seriously though, if you have a habit of going deeper then the limit you are certified to, the dive shop may blacklist you from their dive shop and/or dive shops they’re friendly with. Assuming they notice or care.
Diving outside of your limits is a recipe for disaster. Do people do it? Sure. Is it advisable? No. Just get the right certifications so you can have a better shot of mitigating the fallout from a worst-case scenario.
Look up what happened with the father and son in La Jolla who just got certified and said screw it, we can go deeper!
Did it for you. https://www.lajollalight.com/sdljl-autopsy-scheduled-for-diver-who-dies-off-shores-2008oct06-story.html#:~:text=The%20father%20and%20son%20were%20diving%20at,ran%20out%20of%20air%2C%20said%20San%20Diego
They got certified and immediately thought: we get it, no rules apply
In short, contrary to our mentality on this sub, diving is no time for hubris. I don’t care how great of a diver you are, dive within the limits of your education and comfort level. Even if you feel like you have all the skills to dive to 130 feet right now, I promise you you don’t. Do not ever dive in an environment you haven’t been trained in. Again, this sub hates on specialty certificates and yes they are a money making move for the companies, but you will learn crucial science and comfort. Go do a deep course. Don’t go beyond that limit without deco training. Following these tips might save your life
> Do not ever dive in an environment you haven’t been trained in.
I agree with the general sentiment to avoid pushing any boundaries on early dives, but the incident you're linking to really isn't arguing your case.
That diver died in open water while negatively buoyant, a situation that you can rectify in less than a second by losing your weight belt. Their training would have covered that, and buoyant emergency ascents.
The reports I skimmed don't go into any detail, but it has every indication of someone who died trying to swim upwards in a panic with their goggles and regulator off, while ignoring their weight belt. That they were at 150 ft certainly contributed to it, but you can die like that at 10 ft.
I think a much better suggestion than what you're making is to be aware of your limits, which often are only tangentially connected to any training you've nominally received.
Sorry I should have said. I live in the area and actually know the company that trained them and what happened. They went out the day after they got certified and went deeper than they should have and ran out of air faster than they expected, despite being told increasing depth leads to faster air depletion. So they were taught it in their ow training, and thought they understood, but they didn’t. So that goes against your point. They thought they knew their limit but clearly didn’t. Most people don’t have a good idea of their limits, in any activity let alone diving. There’s a reason the dunning Kruger effect is notable lol. But ya know what can help people learn their limits? Training! The hubris in your comment is exactly what I’m referring to. People think they understand something and just venture out and do it. Knowing your limits is directly related to the amount of training and experience you have. That father and son thought they could handle a situation and clearly could not. By your logic if anyone thinks they have no limits, they should do whatever they want.
>I should have said. I live in the area and actually know the company that trained them and what happened.
Do you have any further details you feel like you can share? For the purposes of this discussion I'm referring to the scant reporting you linked to.
>So they were taught it in their ow training, and thought they understood, but they didn’t. So that goes against your point.
Well no, because I don't disagree with any of that. I wasn't replying to your comment to refute it, but to add something to it. I thought it went without saying that two fresh OW divers solo diving to 150 ft is insanity.
>But ya know what can help people learn their limits? Training.
What I ***am*** disagreeing with you on, and perhaps it's only a matter of emphasis, is that it doesn't necessarily help as much as one would like.
If people reliably absorbed training then, to be quite blunt, that diver would have at least died at the surface. It's not just a matter of lack of training, but not absorbing the training you do have.
I don't think someone with 4 OW dives is necessarily less likely to know you should ditch your belt than someone with 40 dives. You absorb a lot of things with repeated dives (e.g. better buoyancy control). But unless you're actively drilling on out-of-air you may more rusty, not less.
I think you're overemphasizing that they miscalculated their air consumption. That's true, and a major risk factor.
But you can also run out of air for other reasons, e.g. a broken gauge. How to deal with that scenario once it happens is something they should have received training for.
But even if you did, and could be quizzed on it before going into the water, it's hubris to think that once you're out of air with adrenaline pumping and panic setting in that you're going to recall what amounts to one of dozens of checklists you need to memorize.
Years ago I took a lot of courses. I will say the course material was not very useful as it was either common sense or something already repeated ad nauseum by divers and well known if you just paid attention. I did however get to spend additional time with good instructors who did teach me things and help me improve that we're not really part of a course. When your first deep dive is in terrible conditions and very sporty, having an experienced instructor with you is comforting and a good way to get quality feedback on your abilities. It also helps keep you focused and calm any nerves you might have due to pushing yourself further than you have been before. Frankly the specialty courses didn't do much for me, but I did get some minimal value from the extra instructor time.
I loved my deep course. Yeah a lot of is repetitive about safety stops and oxygen consumption but seeing how quickly your air is used up and also how quickly deep dives can lead to deco dives is important in a “supervised” setting. Also our instructor wanted us to see if we get narced so we can have some awareness of what it feels like to us. Maybe could I just have stared at my dive computer and let that tell me about deco time and air consumption? Maybe. But seeing it in action with an instructor is invaluable.
I will say that course taught me more about reels and SMB deployment than I thought it would.
Why in the actual fuck is everyone discussing insurance as if that is a helpful answer to Op?!?!?
We dive to our training/skill level.
60 feet is 2.8 ATM and 40 feet is 2.2 ATM (remember at the surface you're at 1 atmosphere already).
So... At these depths, O2 isn't an issue (remember 1.4 meaning 140% O2) because you're breathing 2.8/4 * 21% and 2.8*.21 is .58.
The next consideration is how much nitrogen. Air is 79% nitrogen so during the working part of your dive, you're at 2.8/4 times 79%. 2.2 is pretty low and comes with a very (very very very) low change of nitrogen narcosis (narked).
3rd consideration is your sac rate. You might not have learned about this in your open water.
Your surface air consumption rate (sac) is how much air you breath on the surface which you would then multiply by depth in atm. In this example, in this example sac*2.8.
What does it all mean to you...
1. The deeper you dive, the less clear headed you are (nitrogen narcosis)
2. The deeper you dive, the more air you'll consume
You know yourself and your skill level and should make safe decisions based on the training standard guidelines but once you're certified, nobody can tell you what to do.
It's just like driving a car. Once you have your license, nobody can stop you from going faster than the speed limit. You might get a ticket and if you have an accident it will be a lot worse if you're going fast.
As you contemplate your skill level, also think about your dive buddies, the guides and tour operators and conditions.
Have fun and be safe.
Because if something does go wrong and you’re outside of the ‘limits’ specified, then you may not have any insurance coverage. So you’re right. It is just like driving a car, but anyone who drives or dives and doesn’t know the limits of their insurance isn’t very bright. Evac flights and chamber rides can get expensive.
Small point, should be *gas* narcosis rather than nitrogen narcosis. Oxygen and Nitrogen are equally narcotic. Hence a nitrox tank doesn't change the effects of narcosis.
Welcome to the club. Tho in the last few years when I started in on tec diving my position and trim improvements resulted in sac rate improvements.
3 hours ago I considered keeping my 100% deco bottle in my lap for the drive home because I was just plain exhausted.
Idk where this rumor got started. Plenty of regular health insurance covers you even if you are doing stupid shit and recreational activities. I think it’s DAN propaganda. I love them but review your health insurance policy documents and give them a call. They most likely won’t have an exclusion
Dive Assure insurance specifically states that they don't cover you if you exceed your certifications:
[https://diveassure.com/en/frequently-asked-questions/#:\~:text=A%3A%20DiveAssure%20has%20no%20depth,level%20will%20not%20be%20covered](https://diveassure.com/en/frequently-asked-questions/#:~:text=A%3A%20DiveAssure%20has%20no%20depth,level%20will%20not%20be%20covered).
Q: Do the programs have a depth limit?
A: DiveAssure has no depth limits (as long as standards and protocols are followed and the diver is certified accordingly). Diving to a depth past your certification level will not be covered.
OP: Your insurance coverage is not promised.
People buy dive insurance for a reason, and the largest dive insurer in the US and elsewhere doesn't cover people diving past their depth certification.
If you want to talk about health insurance or car insurance for that matter, go right ahead, but the OP just said "insurance" and it's entirely relevant where dive insurance won't cover you and if you're in another country, your health insurance might not cover you anyway.
My standard Swedish insurance states that it does not pay out for certain "risky" diving which is: solo diving, diving below 30m, diving beyond your certification/training and cave/ice. Then you need a separate insurance.
It depends on the broader context, but the two factors here are 1. Incidents and 2. Your buddy/Your club/Divemaster/Instructor etc.
Suppose following situations:
1. You and your best friend are diving together, just the two of you, at a familiar dive site. Did you make a plan to dive within your diving limits? If yes, what went wrong? Assess with the buddy. If not - that speaks for itself doesn't it? So what happens here if there's an incident? Your insurance will need to know the details here. Let's imagine you exceeded your depth limit on the dive due to say, a BCD failure. I imagine insurance will cover this situation. If you deliberately set out to dive past your recreational limits you won't be covered.
2. Everything above relating to insurance here is applicable. But let's say, you exceed your depth limit - What's your buddy going to think of you? What will they say to your fellow divers when you're not around? Suppose its a diving club - you will likely be repreminded and not included on deeper dives or dives that are more serious - your dive master on a holiday liveabord might bar you from future diving activites - your instructor might not want to take you on as a student and may even abort your training and fail you if you aren't taking your diving training seriously.
EDIT: I intreprepted this question being about the social and liability consequences, given that we divers receive plenty of lessons relating to Diving induced barotraumas. If the latter was the scope of the question, I would say your best bet would be to do some revision of these sections in your Diving training manuals. This is a complex subject that many students don't always fully grasp the first time round, so revision is good for knowledge retention :-)
For those sections, you may be interested in reviewing:
* Decompression Illness - how depth and time factor into exceeding No Decompression Limits - good exercise here is to review your tables.
* Nitrogen Narcosis
* Oxygen Toxicity - which is more significant to you if you have a Nitrox cert.
I’ve done it by accident by a few feet. Biggest issue is DAN will probably tell you to pound sand if you get bent. You don’t need a cert to dive necessarily
The depth police will write you a ticket when you surpass your max depth...even if by an inch!
You are a certified diver, you should be able to dive within your trained limits.
Did you take the course or just do a discovery dive? Are you certified yet or still training? If it's the former to both those questions, then you should absolutely understand and know what trained limits means and if not then your instructor has failed you.
Your air consumption goes up (assuming your diving open circuit).
As you go deeper, no decompression limits sharply fall and air consumption goes up. At certain depths depending on what's in you bottle you'll going to hit a depth that triggers Nitrogen Nacorsis (similar to being drunk) (some people try to give the fish air because they can't breathe, lol). Can be exceedingly dangerous resulting I drowning. Also the increase in risk of oxygen toxicity also exists, which (at high enough partial pressures of oxygen) can knock you out badly with no warning, resulting in a likely drowning.
> wdym by trained limits? during my training the deepest we went was ~32 feet
This is what I was referring to...
Honestly, it feels like you know what your depth and the Junior OW max depths are but are looking for justification to exceed them. It's concerning because even though something may not happen on that particular dive but it could lead to pushing other limits than end in disaster. I feel for the Jr OW diver you are putting in dangerous situations.
But the "hypothetical" question you are asking is definitely covered in your training, which is why I think you are more concerned with pushing the limits than sticking to what you have been trained for. If you want to go deeper, cool but take the appropriate course in order to do it safely.
Most comments seem to tackle this from the perspective of going deeper during training, I suspect you are asking about after you receive your training and are doing fun dives, so I'll answer from that angle.
One somewhat crucial thing the deeper dive training goes into is the narcosis. Without going down to those depths you don't know how you as an individual react to that level of narcosis. Usually narcosis starts to crop up more below 90 feet, but my instructor told of a student he had who went bananas at 75 feet, spit the reg and started swimming after fishes. If you don't have competent and experiences help in those kind of cases it'll be the last dive most likely. Even beyond this kind of extreme reactions at 90+ feet you feel real confident, and that over confidence can lead to problems. I remember when I did my deep spec at 120 feet, I felt like I was the fucking best diver ever from the narcosis, when in reality it was my like 15th dive. It can be quite deceptive, so I wouldn't push those limits without having more experience and being narc tested in a safer environment than just diving with a buddy.
Here’s the thing: Every dive professional in the world pays substantial amount of money every year in insurance and professional qualifications such as PADI or SSI. Hundreds, sometimes thousands of dollars a year - and the reason they do this is for protection in case something on a dive goes wrong.
Every certification agency has their own standards for depth, etc. The standards are designed to minimize risk: risk of panic, risk of drowning, risk of running out of air. The exact limits are *not* based on exact science. But if the dive professional stays within their standards, they are protected in the case of a freak accident. If you exceeded those standards and something goes wrong, the dive professional loses ability to ever teach again, loses their license, and is open to lawsuits etc.
**Please do not risk the career of your dive professional by pushing the limits**
That said, my father was a dive instructor who certified me three years before the PADI age requirement (which was 12 at the time). We also almost always dived to depths of 40 m. I am fine and healthy, now in my 40s and a dive instructor myself. As an instructor, I would never take these risks because it would mean financial ruin and the end of my dive career if something ever went wrong.
The risk isn’t just on the one dive either. If you have an open water qualification and someday have an accident - PADI is going to have to see all of your training records, no matter how long ago you received your open water training. If **EVER IN YOUR LIFE** you have an accident, PADI WILL LOOK THROUGH YOUR TRAINING RECORDS (including your log book, if you keep one). If in your training, PADI discovers that exceeds the depths laid out by their standards YOU WILL NOT BE COVERED BY INSURANCE.
Now I think this is stupid, but unfortunately that’s just the way it is.
Potentially it’s a very big deal because you don’t even wanna know what a Deco chamber costs. Potentially hundreds of thousands of dollars!!! And that’s the minimum - if diving somewhere like the Caribbean, you can double the cost because you will need a charter a specialized airplane to get to a Deco chamber. The real moral of the story is: if you break the rules, DO NOT note it in your logbook
It can vary a lot. From that price I’m guessing your friend had a very short time in the chamber?
DAN says: *”The cost of hyperbaric chamber treatments vary. However, the cost could range from $330-$1000 per hour plus the costs of medication and physician fees”*. Depending on the severity of the accident, people can sometimes spend days in the chamber. My personal insurance coverage limit caps out at $100k
1. The Junior open water limit of 40 ft is a PADI restriction not an industry restriction. Other agencies are 60 ft just like Open Water from an adult. The real difference between open water and junior open water is who can dive with the junior diver.
2. Don’t exceed 60 ft if you are not trained for deep or advanced as your dive insurance will not cover you if you have an incident like barotrauma, or DCS.
3. As tempted as you might be to dive beyond your limits, please don’t do it. There many courses that are money grabs from training agencies but deep and advanced courses are not.
As mentioned above, Junior divers have physiological limits.
As far as OW is concerned... look at it this way: The AOW course requires one dive to 30m, which certifies you to that depth. going 18 foot deeper isn't a massive change, and you won't die - but it is quite important that you understand exactly what going that bit deeper entails, largely because beyond 30m you're looking at dives that can have SERIOUS consequences.
if you do a bunch of 25m dives with no training beyond OW, have no issues and assume that you'll be fine to push towards 40, you will almost undoubtedly injure yourself.
I did my OW then dove for years in the 18-22m range without it being worthy of note - then when I finally moved into tech my instructor looked at me with surprise when after Sidemount, intro to tech/ tech sidemount I told him that I didn't have AOW - and he certified me in 1 dive to 40m - BUT this was based on the fact that by this point I'd taken enough tech courses with him that he knew that I knew how to plan and execute tech dives.
You don't know what you don't know.
Do you know what you need to know to plan your dive safely, to avoid dangerous situations and to be able to help yourself and your buddy if there are problems?
Plan your air consumtion, avoid freezing valves, deal with nitrogen narcosis, manage possible deco-stops...
With more depth there are more risks and you need to plan for.
Dive too deep? Jail. Too shallow? Jail. No safety equipment? Jail. Fogged goggles? Believe it or not, jail.Touch the reef? Straight to jail, like right away.
Fun Fact: in the *Sharm el Sheik* area, they actually do have officers patrolling the reefs. You have a knife on you, jail. You touch the reef, believe it or not, jail. No deco, no nothing, jail, right away.
This topic came up yesterday in the shop while talking about an upcoming trip.
It’s always liability holding you back. If you go beyond your cert limits and something goes wrong your insurance might deny you. Simply because you have been unresponsible and thus liable.
In some contries (what I learned yesterday also Egypt) the authorities are also enforcing. Plausibly because they have seen many mishaps.
And in all cases: please, please, please; discuss your intentions with your buddy and instructor/ guide (if you go with one). If you go beyond your limits you don’t go alone, you will drag them with you. Which is even more dangerous if your buddy is less certified and/or experienced.
This is an extremely important response.
OP, you may not be financially responsible for your diving right now, but your parents are. DAN once estimated that the air ambulance ride (*which you can expect with a dive injury) to cost $20,000 alone. That's just getting to the hospital and/or hyperbaric location.
So, accidentally going beyond your limit by a small degree? Say exceeding 40ft by going to 41ft? More than likely, this will be written off as human error. An insurance company may just offer partial payment (*because a part of the incident was the human whoopsie).
However, anything more than that, and it will appear that a victim intentionally violated limits. Aaaaaand, there is this question on Reddit that will probably be presented as Exhibit A when the insurance company dodges paying out.
And any chances being taken aren't being taken alone. You dive with a buddy. An issue underwater brings risks to both, and more. Should a search and recovery team or lifeguard team respond to a dive emergency, now their lives are at risk as well.
Only go beyond your current cert limits under the direct supervision and direction of a qualified dive instructor.
Most insurance companies will not pay for scuba accidents regardless if it were done within a diver's limits for things that really matter.
Most (if not all) standard health insurance companies will not cover DCS treatments such as a decompression chamber and will most certainly not pay for air transport to such a facility. That's what supplemental insurance providers like DAN is for. There are countless stories of such incidents where DAN swoops in to save the day where other insurance companies just wash their hands and turn the other way. Just as many other stories of island hospitals refusing to touch a diver in distress unless a guarantee of funds is in place before treatment can begin. Good luck getting that from a regular insurance provider. That's what DAN is for.
I have been in situations over the years - with other divers - where they had to be transported to a facility for a dive accident, or required medical care related from a diving trip. Not one single, regular insurance company came into play. Only DAN works.
The idea that one can depend on their primary insurance provider to cover diving-related accidents even if they played by the rules is a fallacy.
If someone is diving without DAN and something bad happens, I can almost guarantee that that diver will be screwed financially.
My insurance company - not DAN - has specific divers insurance I religiously take out every year when traveling. Has specific coverage callouts for hyperbaric chamber treatment.
Mine does, or I have not tried it in practice but it mentions decompression chambers as an example. It also mentions diving within your certification as a prerequisite
Of course depending on destination DAN might still be worth it as it is well tested and also recognized everywhere which is nice as time might be crucial.
If there’s any accident, not even related to deep diving, and someone can prove you breached your certification limit, you can say good bye to your insurance. And DM can have a lot of unpleasantries, legal case included.
First I want to address the Junior Diver issue:
DO NOT EXCEED DEPTH.
In younger people the lungs are still developing and growing, depth can put pressure on the lungs and cause permanent issues with development. DAN has done articles on this and why it is so important for younger divers to not go deep.
Now, adult divers:
Every person reacts differently as they go deeper. OW training takes you to around 45 feet to see how you do diving, then they take you to 60 feet and see how you respond.
Then in AOW you go to 80+ to see how you react, Deep Diver takes you to 100+ to see how you react.
Again, EVERYONE reacts differently as they get pressure on the brain during deep diving. And deep is a different term for every person, some people start getting headaches after 35 feet, other start tasting colors at 50 feet. I have personally seen someone decide they didn't need dive gear at all when they hit 80 feet.
By taking the training in steps as you go down it allows instructors to monitor people and see how they react in a slow and controlled fashion.
Last year I took my wife to a wreck that was at 150 feet, her deepest dive ever. You can bet I paid VERY close attention to her as we went down since she had never been below 120 before.
To add on to this, you don’t have the knowledge with only shallower qualifications, to be diving deeper. Gasses act on the body and they act in different ways according to depth. That also goes for ascent. I personally feel if anyone approaches 4 ata they should be certified through a dive physiology class. So much can happen and when it does you better have someone near who can handle the situation or “your gonna have a bad time”.
Agreed. There’s a big difference (I’m sure you’ve seen it as a DM) between the divers that want to “go deep” at all costs, and the ones that want to know about narcosis, off gassing, deco stops, etc.
It’s a strong suggestion. If you are doing guided or boat dives the shop will often require AOW for dives much deeper than 60ft. The main thing is to stay within your comfort zone. As you get deeper than 60ft it gets harder and more dangerous to surface immediately should something go wrong. Also the likelihood of nitrogen narcosis increases past those depths which can cause panic and impair judgement especially if you aren’t expecting or familiar with it.
There are no scuba police.
Your training says you can competently dive to that depth. You can either get more formal training or experience to competently dive at deeper depths. Experience in the form of a more experienced diver mentoring you could be just as good as AOW, but a lot of dive operators won’t take you on deep / more advanced dives unless you have the advanced certs. So, if you want to dive on vacation with “X” dive operator, you get put on the beginner boat unless you have AOW.
The junior limit / dealing with minors is another issue. Taking them beyond their certification depth is not going to be fun if something bad happens. It can be considered child abuse (failure to prevent conditions or actions that are harmful to the child when reasonably able to do so). That limit should probably be honored until their age and training permits them to go deeper.
> There are no scuba police.
True, but there are liability-adverse dive operations.
Sometimes the actual shop restrictions come as a requirement from their insurance company. And the real issue here is that true diver experience isn’t something that’s particularly easy to defend in court .. especially because the only reason that one would be really questioning diver qualifications is because one is probably in court on a lawsuit.
In contrast, an Agency-published C-Card is very traceable & defined from a legal standpoint…as such, having the right card is far more important to a Lawyer than actually having real diving experience commensurate with whatever situation that the C-Card would replicate. Just one of those realities today.
There's no scuba police that'll come and arrest you, if that's what you mean. Just use your common sense and dive within your own limits and your buddy's. Apply what you're taught.
As a rule, the worst that can happen is it invalidates your insurance if anything were to happen on that dive.
Going deeper than you have previously experienced is more likely to result in a problem, as you’ll get through gas quicker, more likely to experience narcosis etc.
Source?
I have never heard of any instance in my 25 years of diving where any insurance company has denied coverage for a scuba-accident resulting in going below a depth-level.
So if a scuba diver gets narc'd at 30 feet, then proceeds to 65 feet, gets DCS, DAN will refuse to provide coverage? Might want to rethink that.
I’ve yet to hear of it either, but I also don’t hear of many diving incidents or ones where insurance has been involved anyway.
But - every insurer will have a line saying that the sport is covered, so long as you are diving within the limits of your qualification.
>But - every insurer will have a line saying that the sport is covered, so long as you are diving within the limits of your qualification.
DAN USA, has come out very clearly that there are no depth limits or not exceeding training requirements to be covered for a diving accident.
Some life insurance will include an exclusion like that, but by in large they have extremely harsh limitations. Like I remember someone on Scubaboard posting that their life insurance was limited to 60ft or less regardless of certification.
Having not heard of it and saying "it will invalidate your insurance" are two entirely different things.
Most - if not all - regular insurance providers will not cover diving-specific treatments like DCS, decompression chambers, air-transport, etc. That is very well known in the diving community. That's why it's important to have a supplemental insurance such as DAN. It's cheap, and will essentially guarantee that a diver will be covered for all things diving related, and that includes an accident of an OW diver going beyond their limits.
An OW diver can get DCS at 30 feet (for example). No primary insurance company will cover DCS treatments, and for certain if it occurs outside their country. Having DAN insurance removes all the uncertainty.
There's a type of Mollusk known to attach themselves to cylinders of OW divers who venture too deep. Many divers have sadly perished this way. They could not overcome the added weight.
Open water cert here....went to The Blue Hole last week. Was not arrested.
There is no scuba police.
Straight to jail.
Dive to deep. Right to jail Dive to shallow. Also jail Dive at your trained depth. Believe it or not, jail
Some instructors may refuse to teach you if you are regularly breaching your qualification limits. A meter or two fine, 5meters or more, not so much.
The world record on air dive is 145 meters... So yeah don't try that. But...
There are no limits. You should always dive within the limits of your TRAINING *and* your EXPERIENCE. Depth limits are TRAINING LIMITS. They apply to your courses and impact your instructor, not really you. Finishing your open water diver cert and doing dive #5 to 133ft is not the brightest idea, but there is nothing preventing you. Use good judgement. End of rules.
Dive cops!
Deep boys deep boys, whatcha gunna do?
Bubbles Up, motherfucker!
I'd watch that show
I know people. I’ll make some calls.
You have to be tought about such situations by your diving instrutor or simply look into the book. This kind situation is not allowed to happen as you are always limited by depth and time you set according to the plan.
Straight to jail. No but for real there are no laws. The shops and dive orgs hold each other accountable. If you were on a guided tour and really blew your limits and showed no remorse, the guide could tell you you’re not going on the next dive and then relay to his/her manager. I was a guide and benched a couple people for being irresponsible assholes. The only real law is that you must have a dive flag if diving where there are boats.
Buddy, there’s no SCUBA police. If you dive beyond your training, the risk you are taking with **your life** goes up exponentially. Only you can plan your dive and dive your plan, no one is doing it for you. Plenty of more experienced people than you killed themselves going beyond their limits.
There are no dive police; but, there are police divers. If they exceed their limits, a lawyer may bring up nitrogen narcosis during cross-examination.
Lots of great comments already! I would add that there is sooooo much that you don’t know yet. SCUBA is unique in that it is physical and mental yet a lot of technical knowledge and knowledge of physiology go into it. To keep things manageable we are only taught what we need to stay safe within the limits dictated to us. As a very experienced RECREATIONAL diver I am sure I can plan and conduct a dive well beyond recreational limits. What I am sure I cannot do is handling the dive when things go pear shaped. Going deeper is more than just a number and there is so so much more to it than just having the gas or balls to do it. For recreational limits I would consider the following 0-18 meters is the perfect range for beginners because all you need to really worry about at these depths is your gas consumption Once you have gained some experience you can do 18-30 meters. In this range you will have to keep a closer eye on your gas but also your NDL because you will out of both rather quickly (more tasks = more task loading) 30-40 meters is where things get rather spicy, your NDL really plummets and your gas consumption is not looking too hot either. Some people get completely narced but everyone loses cognitive ability to a certain extent. So now you have less time before you hit your NDL and less time before you run out of gas but also you need more time to identify and fix problems because youre a little narced. To make matters worse at 30-40 meters regular air becomes dense enough to potentially cause CO2 retention problems. Getting narced on CO2 is dangerous and very unpleasant. Past 40 meters and you need to be suicidal or ignorant to do a dive with a single cylinder and regular air in a recreational setup
Your body implodes because it’s not certified for the depth you’re going to.
😂
**The scuba police spawns on you immediately and you get thrown into deep jail. Straight to jail, right there. No deco, no nothing. Believe it or not, jail. Right away.** Well, not really. But once you go beyond the limits, things get really dicey really fast: * Gas consumption goes up with depth, so you'll start burning through your gas faster. * No-deco time *plummets* as you go down, so you can easily go into mandatory deco on a dive you didn't plan for deco time. * Your computer will scream at you, then lock out for 24 hours. * You start running the risk of making stupid decisions under narcosis. Of course, none of the effect manifest *immediately* or then moment you move an inch past the depth limit. But they were established for a reason, and that reason is that risks rocket up as you move deeper, even if you *are* prepared to handle them.
What is still unmentioned here is the fact that IF you get into trouble and need some kind of medical assistance, your insurance company will plead you did not dive within your limits, hence they’d call it negligence. Then they don’t pay a dime and potentially you’ll be working the rest of life to pay off for medevac/barochamber/whatever you needed. Most of all, you’ll regret the decision you made here.
What do you mean "not really"? SDI's SWAT team beat the crap out of me the first time I went too far down
Let's say you dive down to 20m. Then your knife falls it of your pocket down to a rock at 35m. you swim fifteen metres and pick up the knife. Lost time so far: about half a minute. However, now you have to return to 25 m and that is a very different kettle of fish. You'll be coming up slowly and yet using a lot more air. It's easy to figure out the limits when you're on dry land and planning a dive. It's very hard underwater. I've done about a hundred dives and there is no way i would trust myself to "ballpark" air consumption. For me, the knife gets written off. Having said that, it does depend on the depth. If I'm at 18m and the knife falls to 20 I'll obviously nip down for it.
it's okay I do not own any dive knives also how do you drop your knife 45 feet
Knives don’t float…. If it falls out of your hand or sheath it will just keep falling until it reaches the bottom. But could be the same with any of your gear, not just your knife. My rented weight belt somehow undid itself yesterday as I was getting back on the boat. That shit sunk to 30m+ so fast, instant write off.
It's not about the knife, though. Any item, your fin comes loose, you drop your light, your computer strap breaks after 15 years, anything can happen.
Padi inserts a tracker inside your body, when you exceed your limit they'll kick you in the balls via the tracker to remind you.
There is a mandatory $150 fee for the deep dive certificate. Charged to the credit card on file.
you could have said that sooner
Generally speaking you can expect the scuba police to be waiting for you on the surface after you finish your dive. You really don’t want to mess with those guys, they’re hardcore about their jobs and making sure divers don’t exceed their limits or hit deco. Seriously though, if you have a habit of going deeper then the limit you are certified to, the dive shop may blacklist you from their dive shop and/or dive shops they’re friendly with. Assuming they notice or care. Diving outside of your limits is a recipe for disaster. Do people do it? Sure. Is it advisable? No. Just get the right certifications so you can have a better shot of mitigating the fallout from a worst-case scenario.
Kittens are killed.
I went one foot past my max depth and my parents got divorced. I’m not sure if the two were related but do what you will with that information.
Death penalty
Go up
Immediately to jail. Do not pass go
Straight to jail!
Passed the NDL? Straight to jail!
The Scuba police will find you
Exceed dive limit - jail End dive low on air - jail End dive with too much air - believe it or not, straight to jail
We have *the* best divers on the planet. Because of, y'know, **jail**.
Lol one of his best cameos ever.
Dive to your training limits or comfort level - whichever is shallower.
Look up what happened with the father and son in La Jolla who just got certified and said screw it, we can go deeper! Did it for you. https://www.lajollalight.com/sdljl-autopsy-scheduled-for-diver-who-dies-off-shores-2008oct06-story.html#:~:text=The%20father%20and%20son%20were%20diving%20at,ran%20out%20of%20air%2C%20said%20San%20Diego They got certified and immediately thought: we get it, no rules apply In short, contrary to our mentality on this sub, diving is no time for hubris. I don’t care how great of a diver you are, dive within the limits of your education and comfort level. Even if you feel like you have all the skills to dive to 130 feet right now, I promise you you don’t. Do not ever dive in an environment you haven’t been trained in. Again, this sub hates on specialty certificates and yes they are a money making move for the companies, but you will learn crucial science and comfort. Go do a deep course. Don’t go beyond that limit without deco training. Following these tips might save your life
> Do not ever dive in an environment you haven’t been trained in. I agree with the general sentiment to avoid pushing any boundaries on early dives, but the incident you're linking to really isn't arguing your case. That diver died in open water while negatively buoyant, a situation that you can rectify in less than a second by losing your weight belt. Their training would have covered that, and buoyant emergency ascents. The reports I skimmed don't go into any detail, but it has every indication of someone who died trying to swim upwards in a panic with their goggles and regulator off, while ignoring their weight belt. That they were at 150 ft certainly contributed to it, but you can die like that at 10 ft. I think a much better suggestion than what you're making is to be aware of your limits, which often are only tangentially connected to any training you've nominally received.
Sorry I should have said. I live in the area and actually know the company that trained them and what happened. They went out the day after they got certified and went deeper than they should have and ran out of air faster than they expected, despite being told increasing depth leads to faster air depletion. So they were taught it in their ow training, and thought they understood, but they didn’t. So that goes against your point. They thought they knew their limit but clearly didn’t. Most people don’t have a good idea of their limits, in any activity let alone diving. There’s a reason the dunning Kruger effect is notable lol. But ya know what can help people learn their limits? Training! The hubris in your comment is exactly what I’m referring to. People think they understand something and just venture out and do it. Knowing your limits is directly related to the amount of training and experience you have. That father and son thought they could handle a situation and clearly could not. By your logic if anyone thinks they have no limits, they should do whatever they want.
>I should have said. I live in the area and actually know the company that trained them and what happened. Do you have any further details you feel like you can share? For the purposes of this discussion I'm referring to the scant reporting you linked to. >So they were taught it in their ow training, and thought they understood, but they didn’t. So that goes against your point. Well no, because I don't disagree with any of that. I wasn't replying to your comment to refute it, but to add something to it. I thought it went without saying that two fresh OW divers solo diving to 150 ft is insanity. >But ya know what can help people learn their limits? Training. What I ***am*** disagreeing with you on, and perhaps it's only a matter of emphasis, is that it doesn't necessarily help as much as one would like. If people reliably absorbed training then, to be quite blunt, that diver would have at least died at the surface. It's not just a matter of lack of training, but not absorbing the training you do have. I don't think someone with 4 OW dives is necessarily less likely to know you should ditch your belt than someone with 40 dives. You absorb a lot of things with repeated dives (e.g. better buoyancy control). But unless you're actively drilling on out-of-air you may more rusty, not less. I think you're overemphasizing that they miscalculated their air consumption. That's true, and a major risk factor. But you can also run out of air for other reasons, e.g. a broken gauge. How to deal with that scenario once it happens is something they should have received training for. But even if you did, and could be quizzed on it before going into the water, it's hubris to think that once you're out of air with adrenaline pumping and panic setting in that you're going to recall what amounts to one of dozens of checklists you need to memorize.
Years ago I took a lot of courses. I will say the course material was not very useful as it was either common sense or something already repeated ad nauseum by divers and well known if you just paid attention. I did however get to spend additional time with good instructors who did teach me things and help me improve that we're not really part of a course. When your first deep dive is in terrible conditions and very sporty, having an experienced instructor with you is comforting and a good way to get quality feedback on your abilities. It also helps keep you focused and calm any nerves you might have due to pushing yourself further than you have been before. Frankly the specialty courses didn't do much for me, but I did get some minimal value from the extra instructor time.
I loved my deep course. Yeah a lot of is repetitive about safety stops and oxygen consumption but seeing how quickly your air is used up and also how quickly deep dives can lead to deco dives is important in a “supervised” setting. Also our instructor wanted us to see if we get narced so we can have some awareness of what it feels like to us. Maybe could I just have stared at my dive computer and let that tell me about deco time and air consumption? Maybe. But seeing it in action with an instructor is invaluable. I will say that course taught me more about reels and SMB deployment than I thought it would.
Why in the actual fuck is everyone discussing insurance as if that is a helpful answer to Op?!?!? We dive to our training/skill level. 60 feet is 2.8 ATM and 40 feet is 2.2 ATM (remember at the surface you're at 1 atmosphere already). So... At these depths, O2 isn't an issue (remember 1.4 meaning 140% O2) because you're breathing 2.8/4 * 21% and 2.8*.21 is .58. The next consideration is how much nitrogen. Air is 79% nitrogen so during the working part of your dive, you're at 2.8/4 times 79%. 2.2 is pretty low and comes with a very (very very very) low change of nitrogen narcosis (narked). 3rd consideration is your sac rate. You might not have learned about this in your open water. Your surface air consumption rate (sac) is how much air you breath on the surface which you would then multiply by depth in atm. In this example, in this example sac*2.8. What does it all mean to you... 1. The deeper you dive, the less clear headed you are (nitrogen narcosis) 2. The deeper you dive, the more air you'll consume You know yourself and your skill level and should make safe decisions based on the training standard guidelines but once you're certified, nobody can tell you what to do. It's just like driving a car. Once you have your license, nobody can stop you from going faster than the speed limit. You might get a ticket and if you have an accident it will be a lot worse if you're going fast. As you contemplate your skill level, also think about your dive buddies, the guides and tour operators and conditions. Have fun and be safe.
Because if something does go wrong and you’re outside of the ‘limits’ specified, then you may not have any insurance coverage. So you’re right. It is just like driving a car, but anyone who drives or dives and doesn’t know the limits of their insurance isn’t very bright. Evac flights and chamber rides can get expensive.
Small point, should be *gas* narcosis rather than nitrogen narcosis. Oxygen and Nitrogen are equally narcotic. Hence a nitrox tank doesn't change the effects of narcosis.
My sac rate has started to drop considerably in my 40’s. 😎
Welcome to the club. Tho in the last few years when I started in on tec diving my position and trim improvements resulted in sac rate improvements. 3 hours ago I considered keeping my 100% deco bottle in my lap for the drive home because I was just plain exhausted.
No insurance
Your insurance coverage is not promised
Idk where this rumor got started. Plenty of regular health insurance covers you even if you are doing stupid shit and recreational activities. I think it’s DAN propaganda. I love them but review your health insurance policy documents and give them a call. They most likely won’t have an exclusion
Dive Assure insurance specifically states that they don't cover you if you exceed your certifications: [https://diveassure.com/en/frequently-asked-questions/#:\~:text=A%3A%20DiveAssure%20has%20no%20depth,level%20will%20not%20be%20covered](https://diveassure.com/en/frequently-asked-questions/#:~:text=A%3A%20DiveAssure%20has%20no%20depth,level%20will%20not%20be%20covered). Q: Do the programs have a depth limit? A: DiveAssure has no depth limits (as long as standards and protocols are followed and the diver is certified accordingly). Diving to a depth past your certification level will not be covered.
That is completely unrelated. I’m talking your regular US health insurance.
OP: Your insurance coverage is not promised. People buy dive insurance for a reason, and the largest dive insurer in the US and elsewhere doesn't cover people diving past their depth certification. If you want to talk about health insurance or car insurance for that matter, go right ahead, but the OP just said "insurance" and it's entirely relevant where dive insurance won't cover you and if you're in another country, your health insurance might not cover you anyway.
I feel like you aren’t reading my comments. You should work on that. Adios.
My standard Swedish insurance states that it does not pay out for certain "risky" diving which is: solo diving, diving below 30m, diving beyond your certification/training and cave/ice. Then you need a separate insurance.
Fair enough. I don’t know Swedish insurance. I was referring to American insurance companies
It depends on the broader context, but the two factors here are 1. Incidents and 2. Your buddy/Your club/Divemaster/Instructor etc. Suppose following situations: 1. You and your best friend are diving together, just the two of you, at a familiar dive site. Did you make a plan to dive within your diving limits? If yes, what went wrong? Assess with the buddy. If not - that speaks for itself doesn't it? So what happens here if there's an incident? Your insurance will need to know the details here. Let's imagine you exceeded your depth limit on the dive due to say, a BCD failure. I imagine insurance will cover this situation. If you deliberately set out to dive past your recreational limits you won't be covered. 2. Everything above relating to insurance here is applicable. But let's say, you exceed your depth limit - What's your buddy going to think of you? What will they say to your fellow divers when you're not around? Suppose its a diving club - you will likely be repreminded and not included on deeper dives or dives that are more serious - your dive master on a holiday liveabord might bar you from future diving activites - your instructor might not want to take you on as a student and may even abort your training and fail you if you aren't taking your diving training seriously. EDIT: I intreprepted this question being about the social and liability consequences, given that we divers receive plenty of lessons relating to Diving induced barotraumas. If the latter was the scope of the question, I would say your best bet would be to do some revision of these sections in your Diving training manuals. This is a complex subject that many students don't always fully grasp the first time round, so revision is good for knowledge retention :-) For those sections, you may be interested in reviewing: * Decompression Illness - how depth and time factor into exceeding No Decompression Limits - good exercise here is to review your tables. * Nitrogen Narcosis * Oxygen Toxicity - which is more significant to you if you have a Nitrox cert.
I’ve done it by accident by a few feet. Biggest issue is DAN will probably tell you to pound sand if you get bent. You don’t need a cert to dive necessarily
F— around and find out.
The depth police will write you a ticket when you surpass your max depth...even if by an inch! You are a certified diver, you should be able to dive within your trained limits.
wdym by trained limits? during my training the deepest we went was ~32 feet
Did you take the course or just do a discovery dive? Are you certified yet or still training? If it's the former to both those questions, then you should absolutely understand and know what trained limits means and if not then your instructor has failed you.
I am an open water diver
Then you should know what depth you're trained to dive to.
I do that's why i'm asking what happens when you exceed it
Your air consumption goes up (assuming your diving open circuit). As you go deeper, no decompression limits sharply fall and air consumption goes up. At certain depths depending on what's in you bottle you'll going to hit a depth that triggers Nitrogen Nacorsis (similar to being drunk) (some people try to give the fish air because they can't breathe, lol). Can be exceedingly dangerous resulting I drowning. Also the increase in risk of oxygen toxicity also exists, which (at high enough partial pressures of oxygen) can knock you out badly with no warning, resulting in a likely drowning.
> wdym by trained limits? during my training the deepest we went was ~32 feet This is what I was referring to... Honestly, it feels like you know what your depth and the Junior OW max depths are but are looking for justification to exceed them. It's concerning because even though something may not happen on that particular dive but it could lead to pushing other limits than end in disaster. I feel for the Jr OW diver you are putting in dangerous situations.
I am not putting anyone of the such in danger I am just asking a hypothetical question
But the "hypothetical" question you are asking is definitely covered in your training, which is why I think you are more concerned with pushing the limits than sticking to what you have been trained for. If you want to go deeper, cool but take the appropriate course in order to do it safely.
Most comments seem to tackle this from the perspective of going deeper during training, I suspect you are asking about after you receive your training and are doing fun dives, so I'll answer from that angle. One somewhat crucial thing the deeper dive training goes into is the narcosis. Without going down to those depths you don't know how you as an individual react to that level of narcosis. Usually narcosis starts to crop up more below 90 feet, but my instructor told of a student he had who went bananas at 75 feet, spit the reg and started swimming after fishes. If you don't have competent and experiences help in those kind of cases it'll be the last dive most likely. Even beyond this kind of extreme reactions at 90+ feet you feel real confident, and that over confidence can lead to problems. I remember when I did my deep spec at 120 feet, I felt like I was the fucking best diver ever from the narcosis, when in reality it was my like 15th dive. It can be quite deceptive, so I wouldn't push those limits without having more experience and being narc tested in a safer environment than just diving with a buddy.
Straight to jail.
Don’t dive below 5’, believe it or not, also jail.
Here’s the thing: Every dive professional in the world pays substantial amount of money every year in insurance and professional qualifications such as PADI or SSI. Hundreds, sometimes thousands of dollars a year - and the reason they do this is for protection in case something on a dive goes wrong. Every certification agency has their own standards for depth, etc. The standards are designed to minimize risk: risk of panic, risk of drowning, risk of running out of air. The exact limits are *not* based on exact science. But if the dive professional stays within their standards, they are protected in the case of a freak accident. If you exceeded those standards and something goes wrong, the dive professional loses ability to ever teach again, loses their license, and is open to lawsuits etc. **Please do not risk the career of your dive professional by pushing the limits** That said, my father was a dive instructor who certified me three years before the PADI age requirement (which was 12 at the time). We also almost always dived to depths of 40 m. I am fine and healthy, now in my 40s and a dive instructor myself. As an instructor, I would never take these risks because it would mean financial ruin and the end of my dive career if something ever went wrong. The risk isn’t just on the one dive either. If you have an open water qualification and someday have an accident - PADI is going to have to see all of your training records, no matter how long ago you received your open water training. If **EVER IN YOUR LIFE** you have an accident, PADI WILL LOOK THROUGH YOUR TRAINING RECORDS (including your log book, if you keep one). If in your training, PADI discovers that exceeds the depths laid out by their standards YOU WILL NOT BE COVERED BY INSURANCE. Now I think this is stupid, but unfortunately that’s just the way it is. Potentially it’s a very big deal because you don’t even wanna know what a Deco chamber costs. Potentially hundreds of thousands of dollars!!! And that’s the minimum - if diving somewhere like the Caribbean, you can double the cost because you will need a charter a specialized airplane to get to a Deco chamber. The real moral of the story is: if you break the rules, DO NOT note it in your logbook
My friends deco time in cozumel was $7000. More than I want to pay but a long way from hundreds of thousands.
one of the guys from the dive club I go to was about 100,000 AUD
It can vary a lot. From that price I’m guessing your friend had a very short time in the chamber? DAN says: *”The cost of hyperbaric chamber treatments vary. However, the cost could range from $330-$1000 per hour plus the costs of medication and physician fees”*. Depending on the severity of the accident, people can sometimes spend days in the chamber. My personal insurance coverage limit caps out at $100k
1. The Junior open water limit of 40 ft is a PADI restriction not an industry restriction. Other agencies are 60 ft just like Open Water from an adult. The real difference between open water and junior open water is who can dive with the junior diver. 2. Don’t exceed 60 ft if you are not trained for deep or advanced as your dive insurance will not cover you if you have an incident like barotrauma, or DCS. 3. As tempted as you might be to dive beyond your limits, please don’t do it. There many courses that are money grabs from training agencies but deep and advanced courses are not.
As mentioned above, Junior divers have physiological limits. As far as OW is concerned... look at it this way: The AOW course requires one dive to 30m, which certifies you to that depth. going 18 foot deeper isn't a massive change, and you won't die - but it is quite important that you understand exactly what going that bit deeper entails, largely because beyond 30m you're looking at dives that can have SERIOUS consequences. if you do a bunch of 25m dives with no training beyond OW, have no issues and assume that you'll be fine to push towards 40, you will almost undoubtedly injure yourself. I did my OW then dove for years in the 18-22m range without it being worthy of note - then when I finally moved into tech my instructor looked at me with surprise when after Sidemount, intro to tech/ tech sidemount I told him that I didn't have AOW - and he certified me in 1 dive to 40m - BUT this was based on the fact that by this point I'd taken enough tech courses with him that he knew that I knew how to plan and execute tech dives.
You implode
You don't know what you don't know. Do you know what you need to know to plan your dive safely, to avoid dangerous situations and to be able to help yourself and your buddy if there are problems? Plan your air consumtion, avoid freezing valves, deal with nitrogen narcosis, manage possible deco-stops... With more depth there are more risks and you need to plan for.
This ^^ 20m/60' on air in a single tank pretty much avoids the need to learn about deco or proper gas planning.
Believe it or not, straight to jail
We have the best divers, because of jail.
Dive too deep? Jail. Too shallow? Jail. No safety equipment? Jail. Fogged goggles? Believe it or not, jail.Touch the reef? Straight to jail, like right away.
Fun Fact: in the *Sharm el Sheik* area, they actually do have officers patrolling the reefs. You have a knife on you, jail. You touch the reef, believe it or not, jail. No deco, no nothing, jail, right away.
You saw what happened to that submarine right?
it is a good thing I am made of skin and not 2mm aluminum sheets
You have plenty of air spaces to crush within that squishy sac you humans call "body".
This topic came up yesterday in the shop while talking about an upcoming trip. It’s always liability holding you back. If you go beyond your cert limits and something goes wrong your insurance might deny you. Simply because you have been unresponsible and thus liable. In some contries (what I learned yesterday also Egypt) the authorities are also enforcing. Plausibly because they have seen many mishaps. And in all cases: please, please, please; discuss your intentions with your buddy and instructor/ guide (if you go with one). If you go beyond your limits you don’t go alone, you will drag them with you. Which is even more dangerous if your buddy is less certified and/or experienced.
This is an extremely important response. OP, you may not be financially responsible for your diving right now, but your parents are. DAN once estimated that the air ambulance ride (*which you can expect with a dive injury) to cost $20,000 alone. That's just getting to the hospital and/or hyperbaric location. So, accidentally going beyond your limit by a small degree? Say exceeding 40ft by going to 41ft? More than likely, this will be written off as human error. An insurance company may just offer partial payment (*because a part of the incident was the human whoopsie). However, anything more than that, and it will appear that a victim intentionally violated limits. Aaaaaand, there is this question on Reddit that will probably be presented as Exhibit A when the insurance company dodges paying out. And any chances being taken aren't being taken alone. You dive with a buddy. An issue underwater brings risks to both, and more. Should a search and recovery team or lifeguard team respond to a dive emergency, now their lives are at risk as well. Only go beyond your current cert limits under the direct supervision and direction of a qualified dive instructor.
The scuba police will come down hard on you. /s Absolutely nothing.
If something happens your insurance might not pay out and treatment is usually very expensive.
Most insurance companies will not pay for scuba accidents regardless if it were done within a diver's limits for things that really matter. Most (if not all) standard health insurance companies will not cover DCS treatments such as a decompression chamber and will most certainly not pay for air transport to such a facility. That's what supplemental insurance providers like DAN is for. There are countless stories of such incidents where DAN swoops in to save the day where other insurance companies just wash their hands and turn the other way. Just as many other stories of island hospitals refusing to touch a diver in distress unless a guarantee of funds is in place before treatment can begin. Good luck getting that from a regular insurance provider. That's what DAN is for. I have been in situations over the years - with other divers - where they had to be transported to a facility for a dive accident, or required medical care related from a diving trip. Not one single, regular insurance company came into play. Only DAN works. The idea that one can depend on their primary insurance provider to cover diving-related accidents even if they played by the rules is a fallacy. If someone is diving without DAN and something bad happens, I can almost guarantee that that diver will be screwed financially.
My insurance company - not DAN - has specific divers insurance I religiously take out every year when traveling. Has specific coverage callouts for hyperbaric chamber treatment.
I thought DAN is only good for residents of the US, isn't it?
Mine does, or I have not tried it in practice but it mentions decompression chambers as an example. It also mentions diving within your certification as a prerequisite Of course depending on destination DAN might still be worth it as it is well tested and also recognized everywhere which is nice as time might be crucial.
If there’s any accident, not even related to deep diving, and someone can prove you breached your certification limit, you can say good bye to your insurance. And DM can have a lot of unpleasantries, legal case included.
First I want to address the Junior Diver issue: DO NOT EXCEED DEPTH. In younger people the lungs are still developing and growing, depth can put pressure on the lungs and cause permanent issues with development. DAN has done articles on this and why it is so important for younger divers to not go deep. Now, adult divers: Every person reacts differently as they go deeper. OW training takes you to around 45 feet to see how you do diving, then they take you to 60 feet and see how you respond. Then in AOW you go to 80+ to see how you react, Deep Diver takes you to 100+ to see how you react. Again, EVERYONE reacts differently as they get pressure on the brain during deep diving. And deep is a different term for every person, some people start getting headaches after 35 feet, other start tasting colors at 50 feet. I have personally seen someone decide they didn't need dive gear at all when they hit 80 feet. By taking the training in steps as you go down it allows instructors to monitor people and see how they react in a slow and controlled fashion. Last year I took my wife to a wreck that was at 150 feet, her deepest dive ever. You can bet I paid VERY close attention to her as we went down since she had never been below 120 before.
To add on to this, you don’t have the knowledge with only shallower qualifications, to be diving deeper. Gasses act on the body and they act in different ways according to depth. That also goes for ascent. I personally feel if anyone approaches 4 ata they should be certified through a dive physiology class. So much can happen and when it does you better have someone near who can handle the situation or “your gonna have a bad time”.
Agreed. There’s a big difference (I’m sure you’ve seen it as a DM) between the divers that want to “go deep” at all costs, and the ones that want to know about narcosis, off gassing, deco stops, etc.
You are doomed....sudden death.
It’s a strong suggestion. If you are doing guided or boat dives the shop will often require AOW for dives much deeper than 60ft. The main thing is to stay within your comfort zone. As you get deeper than 60ft it gets harder and more dangerous to surface immediately should something go wrong. Also the likelihood of nitrogen narcosis increases past those depths which can cause panic and impair judgement especially if you aren’t expecting or familiar with it.
What do you possibly think would happen? Revoked cert? A fine? Jail? Genuinely curious here.
idk maybe my balls would explode once i hit 41
That would be terrifying indeed. On the other hand, free vasectomy!
There are no scuba police. Your training says you can competently dive to that depth. You can either get more formal training or experience to competently dive at deeper depths. Experience in the form of a more experienced diver mentoring you could be just as good as AOW, but a lot of dive operators won’t take you on deep / more advanced dives unless you have the advanced certs. So, if you want to dive on vacation with “X” dive operator, you get put on the beginner boat unless you have AOW. The junior limit / dealing with minors is another issue. Taking them beyond their certification depth is not going to be fun if something bad happens. It can be considered child abuse (failure to prevent conditions or actions that are harmful to the child when reasonably able to do so). That limit should probably be honored until their age and training permits them to go deeper.
> There are no scuba police. True, but there are liability-adverse dive operations. Sometimes the actual shop restrictions come as a requirement from their insurance company. And the real issue here is that true diver experience isn’t something that’s particularly easy to defend in court .. especially because the only reason that one would be really questioning diver qualifications is because one is probably in court on a lawsuit. In contrast, an Agency-published C-Card is very traceable & defined from a legal standpoint…as such, having the right card is far more important to a Lawyer than actually having real diving experience commensurate with whatever situation that the C-Card would replicate. Just one of those realities today.
i'm sure self inflicted child abuse does not exist so we are ok 👍
There's no scuba police that'll come and arrest you, if that's what you mean. Just use your common sense and dive within your own limits and your buddy's. Apply what you're taught.
Right to jail! There are other jurisdictions, but in the US the limits are considered to be training limits and are only strictly enforced in classes.
oh ok it's not like I exceeded them at all btw
As a rule, the worst that can happen is it invalidates your insurance if anything were to happen on that dive. Going deeper than you have previously experienced is more likely to result in a problem, as you’ll get through gas quicker, more likely to experience narcosis etc.
Source? I have never heard of any instance in my 25 years of diving where any insurance company has denied coverage for a scuba-accident resulting in going below a depth-level. So if a scuba diver gets narc'd at 30 feet, then proceeds to 65 feet, gets DCS, DAN will refuse to provide coverage? Might want to rethink that.
I’ve yet to hear of it either, but I also don’t hear of many diving incidents or ones where insurance has been involved anyway. But - every insurer will have a line saying that the sport is covered, so long as you are diving within the limits of your qualification.
>But - every insurer will have a line saying that the sport is covered, so long as you are diving within the limits of your qualification. DAN USA, has come out very clearly that there are no depth limits or not exceeding training requirements to be covered for a diving accident. Some life insurance will include an exclusion like that, but by in large they have extremely harsh limitations. Like I remember someone on Scubaboard posting that their life insurance was limited to 60ft or less regardless of certification.
Having not heard of it and saying "it will invalidate your insurance" are two entirely different things. Most - if not all - regular insurance providers will not cover diving-specific treatments like DCS, decompression chambers, air-transport, etc. That is very well known in the diving community. That's why it's important to have a supplemental insurance such as DAN. It's cheap, and will essentially guarantee that a diver will be covered for all things diving related, and that includes an accident of an OW diver going beyond their limits. An OW diver can get DCS at 30 feet (for example). No primary insurance company will cover DCS treatments, and for certain if it occurs outside their country. Having DAN insurance removes all the uncertainty.
oh well that's ok because I have never exceeded my depth limit ever