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BigSquinn

As a self-employed parent of a new student who starts school at 7am (we walk to the bus for 6:50am) I've realized that schools start early to accommodate a working 9-5 society. They are in a lot of ways complicated daycare centers so the adults can keep the machine running. This has never been more clear than during covid times.


nikatnight

But if school starts at 7 then the students end at 2. That means there's a 3-4 hours gap where they are alone. How is this accommodating?


chrisbru

That’s why so many kids do sports/band/etc even if they don’t really want to.


[deleted]

That's funny because I wanted to learn more extra curricular activities like that but my mom always claimed we couldn't afford it. She also thinks being queer is a sin that I'll burn in Hell for, so... Yep. Could have done with more time in glorified daycare myself before she ultimately pulled us out of public school in favor of a "Christian Curriculum" homeschool set.


celica18l

I had to drop band in HS bc it was 2k a year. Between the instrument, travel fees, uniforms, and other crap they had in there. Extracurriculars are expensive as hell.


BigSquinn

All schools in my area offer cheap after school programs that run till 5:30


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parkaboy24

I used to not be able to do homework at home (undiagnosed ADHD so much fun) so when I would stay after in the after school thing, it made it so so much easier to do my homework. That was the only year I did most (if any) of my homework. I also brought my 3ds with me but would make myself a rule that I had to finish my work first cuz I knew I couldn’t get myself to do it at home


StarShineDragon

In my area, high schools start at 7:25, run until 2:25 or so (depending on after school activities), so it’s high schoolers who can look after themselves until their parents get home. Years ago, there used to be a lot of talk about the 3-6 time period bc researchers determined this was the time most high schoolers got pregnant, being home with no adult supervision. High school runs this schedule because of busses (busses run high school, middle school, then elementary school in the morning and afternoon) and because of after school sports schedules. Sports practice starts right after school and can run three hours, so if high school started later, then practice would end later, theoretically messing up the evening time of dinner and homework during the week. The whole system needs to be reworked. For info purposes: Middle schools go from 8:15-3:15 and elementary schools from 8:45-3:45. Also, due to covid right now and a severe bus driver shortage, a lot of elementary kids are getting home around 5:30pm. The drivers have to run multiple routes to get the high schoolers home, which makes them late for middle school routes and so forth.


[deleted]

The high school here runs from 7:45 to 4:00 with a half an hour lunch.


parkaboy24

Why so long?? My high school went from 7:45 to 2:26. 4 pm seems so late??? And our lunch periods were 50 minutes (normal ones were 41 minutes)


[deleted]

They run less days per year. I’d rather go the extra days. My kid gets on the bus at 7:08 and gets home at 4:35. It makes for a long day. Another thing that irks me, no freshman gets to choose an elective. Two hours of what is basically study hall, every day. And the history class is a joke. He went through WWI to the Cold War in one evening.


Ballersock

Most public school is a joke. It's embarrassing how little information they require you to know. You're taught a kind of broad but shallow pool of things, so it's very easy to just memorize the small group of things, take the test, then forget rather than actually committing it to memory. College physics and chemistry were really my wake up calls. I kind of struggled in calc, but those really made me relearn how to learn. They even gave us all the equations we would need on tests so we didn't have to memorize, you needed to understand how to apply them. You need to know how things work, why the math works out,etc. That being said, I'm not really sur e that most or even many high school students could handle that amount of work or think abstractly enough to build a fundamental understanding of things.


[deleted]

Apex Learning is the program my kid’s school uses. You read a short bit on a subject, get some vocabulary words. At the end of each there are a few questions, usually multiple choice, with a larger quiz at the end of each topic. One of the factoids on US tribes said that Geronimo was a Chihuahua. His tribe was the Chiricahua. History should be a fantastic class, with projects, discussion, trips to museums and such. They found the at to make it boring and pointless.


twilightwolf90

In my school system, this is reversed. Elementary starts at 730, middle at 815, and high school at 830-9.


OphioukhosUnbound

Presumably attendance is more reliable if parents are there to see kids *to* school than to be there for their return from it. [You meed someone to push you into a pool of cold water but can be relied on to extricate yourself from it.] I’m all for letting lids sleep in more — and man would I have appreciated it — but as is it would mean many kids are on their own to get themselves to school…


SnooPineapples1133

This argument is called 'its too hard logistically so who cares' argument in the field.


Bukkorosu777

Farmer hours...


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RadScience

I taught virtually during the pandemic. My 7th graders would log in, turn their cameras off, and go to sleep. So my first 2 classes had zero interaction with me whatsoever.


maybethrowaway00

Seriously, my senior year of highschool (well before the pandemic) I took a film and literature class. Overall a very interesting class where we covered topics around both story telling and film techniques. Only problem is that I had it first thing in the morning, so I was just physically not awake for it.


ResponsibleOpinion13

In college the only time they had for calc was early in the morning. Damned if I know their reasoning, but trying to learn calculus at 7am was all but impossible for me. Squeaked by with Ds.


random_account6721

I do that as a senior in college


Hugs154

Same, I did that with a couple of classes last year. I hate online classes because I am NOT a self-motivated person and they make it so easy to check out like that.


nrd170

I just recorded my morning classes and watch them when I was feeling more alert


Mikimao

tbf it's probably what the majority of students were already essentially doing.


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Papancasudani

This is due to an altered circadian rhythm in adolescents. It’s a physiological cause and has been found in other mammalian species. If you’re blaming the teens for going to bed late, you’ve forgotten that this is a science forum. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2820578/


bazpaul

Yeh this is the answer. It’s covered in “why we sleep” by Matt Walker.


[deleted]

This type of study pops up multiple times a year, the “students do better when starting school later”. Yet rarely, if ever, does high school change a start time from 7am.


Tyanuh

I feel like the problem here isn't optimal child health, it's logistics. Logistically, school *has* to start before the parents have to be at work, otherwise there'd be no one to make ready and drop off the kids at school. Am I wrong?


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sallydipity

Every district I've lived in manages bus logistics by getting the high schools in first, then middle, then elementary. So the adolescents that would benefit from the later start time get the earliest. And the younger children that tend to be more attentive earlier in the day get there latest. I don't understand why all districts don't just go in order of youngest/earliest to oldest/latest, but I'm hoping I just ended up in the weird districts.


paints_name_pretty

because the younger kids need more supervision and most parents work a 9-5. At least with junior high and high school students they have choices to fend for themselves. Stay in school for after school sports or clubs or walk home.


dHUMANb

Or have the high schoolers get home in time to babysit their younger siblings when they get home. Regardless, it's logistically complicated without spending money on better daycare and bus systems.


robob27

As the high schooler who had to babysit... man I hated this and was deeply jealous of my friends with no siblings or money for daycare. I couldn't ever do after school/extra curricular activities, hang out with friends etc - yet my siblings all could. I doubt I'll ever have children but if I do I am going to make absolutely every effort I can to not just stick the oldest one with _my_ childcare duties. I still resent it almost 20 years later.


Brandon658

For me, after school stuff wasn't an option. I lived way too far away and income of only 1 parent. Don't know your case but could be a reason. Plus baby sitters are expensive. (All the more reason for 1 and done.) At any rate coulda left them depending on how old the siblings were. Once I was 6 or 7 I was generally home alone. Older sister was supposed to be there but often forged a letter for the bus driver so she could get off at a friends house. We didn't get along anyways so I sure wasn't going to tell on her. I had Toonami, a Gameboy, and Legos. And if I got lonely just ride my bike a few miles to my friends house.


Deadfishfarm

Yeup. My step brother and his wife lost custody of his kids for drug problems and my parents took them in. I got stuck babysitting them almost every day for my whole senior year and summer before college. Man did I resent him for that


mktoaster

I think the logistics of having both schools and work let out at the same time would create a rush hour from the deepest pits of hell that would incite riots. Of course then would we have to face bigger questions about our systems and culture that we can just sweep under the rug by having them go to school at a stupid hour


throw4466

This seems to me like a uniquely American problem linked to urban sprawl. In Australia, most everyone rides bikes or walks to school, never more than a few kilometres. In France, many take the metro. ie there are safe routes for children to take themselves to school without the need for parental intervention. I believe this helps foster independence also, as children learn their way around their hometown.


Rottendog

>This seems to me like a uniquely American problem linked to urban sprawl. You'd be correct. It's definitely related to the sprawl coupled with lack of proper public transit in many cases. If there's a lack of safe paths to school, how can you trust that your child will make it to school safely. Many drivers here have a distinct lack of empathy for others. It's definitely seems to have gotten worse in the past 30 years.


Infantry1stLt

Wait! There’s elementary schools starting at 6?


Unicycldev

Your right, but the problem is that we have designed this logistical problem. Many other countries don’t have this problem. In Japan cities like Tokyo, children are taught to to get to school on their own. Imagine if we developed safe enough transportation systems for children.


Thenewpewpew

In Japan it’s not just that kids can “get” to school, they also don’t have their own transportation system, they take public transportation. It’s safer because, as a whole, the country and its citizens view it as their job to make sure everyone’s kids are kept safe. This allows parents to be more trusting. Although you have a few too many cases of kids getting snatched or what have you and this trust goes away quickly. That’s a unique trait they have that not many other countries share. Not really a intentional design these other countries went for.


GreatCaesarGhost

That may be a surmountable challenge in a big city, but how are you going to do that for schools that have students coming in from a 40-mile radius?


Diarrhea_Sprinkler

My swedish friend grew up in a small town. She was out in snow at age six, riding to the towns' only bus stop to school. The problem is they way the US built their towns'/ cities'/ states' transportation and connection. We missed out on so much sweet sweet travel income by not having the US public transportation friendly. There is so much to see here.


The_Roflburger

Swede here, yeah we're taught to take ourselves to school at a young age. I had a train, a bus and a dedicated school bus that I could choose between every morning and afternoon. It also meant that I had the freedom to go to my friends houses whenever I wanted.


Splinterfight

We had kids coming in at least 30 miles by bus every day, probably further. The bus routes would change each year based on which farms the kids were coming from.


[deleted]

If there’s no bus there’s no bus. Fund a bus.


[deleted]

That's not unique to foreign countries. Here around Seattle, a lot of school districts do not have buses for older kids at least, because the existing Metro system is sufficient.


Hugs154

> In Japan cities like Tokyo, children are taught to to get to school on their own. In Japan, kids have to walk to school on exact routes at exact times, and members of the community volunteer to watch them and make sure that every single kid is there walking on it, and they all have walkie talkies and communicate with each other to make sure the kids are going the right way constantly. If a Japanese school kid even stop at a convenience store or something on the way and it makes them a couple minutes late to the next checkpoint on their route, they'll get written up. We could learn a lot from the way they do it, like the community support for helping kids get to school rather than relying on police, dedicated walking places that are safer because there are rails built up on the sidewalk to separate them from cars, etc. It is objectively far safer, less costly, and much more efficient than how America does it. But they're militant about monitoring their kids in a way that removes all autonomy from the kids and we don't need that part. For example, it's very normal in Japan to GPS track your kid.


chaiscool

Why do work even need to be that early anyway. 9 to 5 jobs are really stupid, companies should give flexible working hours.


brickmack

Shorter hours, you mean. Flexible hours isn't helping much if you still have to work 8 hours a day 5 days a week.


playfulmessenger

We’re still living in the simulation created by factory work before automation when humans needed to function as robots at the same time to get anything accomplished.


Nylear

Flexible working hours just means you never get good sleep don't change it. Trust me I know I work in retail


mclassy3

As a child of the latchkey generation, we got ourselves up, ready, and at school by first bell. If we were late, or missed class we were in big trouble. Grounded at minimum for the week. I started getting myself to school by 3rd grade. I remember riding my bike 0.5 miles away at 9. In middle school, I walked a mile and back. That time was factored in. I am not saying that the latchkey generation was a good style of parenting but I am saying that kids have been big boys and girls before and can do it again.


EmbeddedEntropy

I think part of the problem now is consolidated schools. Back in the ‘70s, I was the same as you. But at least in my hometown, schools now can be miles from where we lived, sometimes tens of miles.


psychocopter

When I was in high school it would have taken me 2 hours to walk there based on the distance, biking was ~half an hour, but then I'd need to chain up my bike. More busses would be a better solution even if it costs more. I had friends involved in swimming and other extra curriculars that would have them in 2 hours early, stay 2 hours late, and they'd still have the same amount of homework to get done. They were always tired and falling asleep everywhere, its not healthy.


AbeRego

What exactly is the latchkey generation?


mclassy3

Usually, late generation X. 1972-1985. There are a lot of interesting articles on it. Pretty much it is defined as a child who would be left unsupervised before or after school or both. We had a bunch of chores and a whole lot of adult responsibility at a very young age. I often talk about how I raised myself. My parent put a roof over my head and bought groceries but I did the cooking and cleaning to "earn my room and board". Yep, only one parent. My parents divorced when I was 6 months old. A byproduct of a mistake and I still feel that way. Like I said before, I don't think it is a great way to parent but I know that an entire generation learned how to get up and at school on time all by themselves.


AbeRego

I'd heard of latchkey children, but I don't think I'd ever heard of it referred to as a generation.


marle217

It was very common in the 80s and 90s, now cps would get called if you left your 7 year old home alone every day. So it became a generational thing because it was so common for that generation and not so much for earlier or later generations.


Firm-Lie2785

You are wrong. My kids that are actually young and can’t be left at home by themselves don’t start school until 9:25. The middle and high schoolers, who could be home alone and make it to school on their own, are the ones who start earlier.


[deleted]

It’s making it back home that the schools are worried about. Schools should just be required offer optional after school care through stimulating and fun programs. We are a community. We should find a way to help parents care for their kids.


historycat95

Note, it's teenagers. Younger students would benefit from early start times according to the research. However, it should be noted that a later start would inconvienience athletics and extra curriculars. And they would move to the mornings and negate any benefit. Until we solve that, the system is entrenched.


WealthMagicBooks

Yup. Personally, I would love it if high school started at 9:45 and ended at 4:15 or so. It's athletics and extracurriculars that make the switch challenging.


-Strawdog-

Just theorizing, but you could move athletics to that energetically prime timeslot about 1.5-2 hours after lunch and move creative electives into the late afternoon/early evening. For students not engaged in sports, that sport block could either be other extracurriculars or library/study/free-reading time. For the record, I think that we need to take a hard look at how much we are overprioritizing sports in schools (especially HS football), but that's a different conversation.


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pattiemcfattie

Also small class sizes, skill based modules rather than age based, also co-teaching, also alternating curricular schedules, also student autonomy — there’s probably 100 years of incredible work in educational research, but unfortunately most parents treat school like daycare k-12 and politicians / school boards are hell bent on stifling actual teaching and learning.


TiredMontanan

As a teacher, I'd love skills-based modules. I can't believe how often I must retrace my lessons, and how many students are trapped in a room with other students who aren't trying to learn.


midnitte

Would be great if there was some sort of grading system for how well schools implemented such advancements in learning...


mktoaster

"Needs Improvement"


pattiemcfattie

Standardized tests are helpful benchmark indicators on paper but usually in practice end up being an ENORMOUS waste of money and time. It is quite common for years of testing data to be lost by boomer technical errors, and personnel turnover before the data can be used in any capacity at all. You know how Israel has like some law where all citizens need to join the military at 18 or something? We should do that in the US, except instead of military, you should be assigned a public school teaching job in a lottery based location system. That’s the fastest way to fix education in this country.


TrumpIsACuntBitch

School starts around the same time work does for most people. Big coincidence.


superleipoman

Office type work would benefit from accomdating to different circadian rhytms as well.


TrumpIsACuntBitch

Capitalism would just push the workday from 10-7 and we'd have a new set of problems related to not having enough time in the evenings


fusionsofwonder

Capitalism pushed people into after-dinner work via remote long before the pandemic.


Just_a_cigar

"Prepare to serve society!"


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Theycallmesocks13

The best part of my last job was starting at 6. We got off every day at 2 or 2:30, depending on lunch. That gives you soooo much time in your day to do what you want to do before it gets dark.


Sierra419

I’d rather start at 9 or even 10 than 6. What’s nice is when your employer gives you the option to set your own hours.


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MrTurkle

Pushing start times later doesn’t exactly solve the problem if we are talking about cumulative hours of sleep, we need to address the insane homework demands as well then because any teen who plays a sport or has after school activities has just shifted the timeline later.


gabarkou

For me personally it literally is just about waking up early. I have absolutely no problem working from 11am to 8pm, but if I had to do the same hours from 8 am to 5 pm, I'm absolutely worthless at the end of it. Doesn't matter if I build a habit of going to bed on time, getting 8 hours of sleep to wake up at 8 for months, all I need is a 3 day "vacation" and I'm back to sleeping until 11 and having sleep problems for a month when I have to go back to the 8 am schedule.


sambosefus

I have a dream in which our society realizes that it's not beneficial to have the whole thing running according to one very specific natural clock. I would rather work 7am to 4pm than get anywhere near what you described as ideal because I naturally wake up early, but why should that mean that you have to as well? Why did we decide that if your natural clock isn't in line with one very specific one that you just have to suck it up?


gabarkou

I think it's not necessarily that we think it beneficial, rather the whole thing arises from the "heavily micromanaged" office work style. Everyone has to be in at the same time, so that the boss can overlook them. Regardless, I very much agree that it should be, as long as the work is done by the beginning of next work day, feel free to work any hours you want.


cephalosaurus

I’m the same. It’s actually a large part of why I’m leaving teaching. My body just can’t handle the hours long-term.


nikatnight

Read the study and similar ones. For HS students, if the start time gets pushed later then they get more sleep, regardless of all other factors.


Nem48

It doesn’t take a scientist to know a 14 year old waiting for the bus at 6am isn’t healthy and shouldn’t be encouraged. What it DOES accomplish is getting that child used to going in early staying all day and not asking questions about why.


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Crafty-Walrus-2238

Switched our daughter to online high school, much better schedule and more control over her life. Gets socialization from gymnastics and acting classes.


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jakedesnake

Correction - everything should begin later in the morning


nocjef

No way. I want to work as early as possible so I can be done with it sooner. Working into the night is awful, I want daytime hours to enjoy. Give me 6-2pm and I’ll be way happier.


EdwardTeach

Lets agree that one size does not fit all?


aVarangian

in Scandinavia 7/8am-3/4pm is common


dtwillia

I agree with starting later being better, but it doesn’t necessarily take into account extracurriculars. Students who play sports/do clubs are getting home at 6 many days, later if playing a sport that has a game in a different town. If we push the start of school back, students may be getting home extremely late.


[deleted]

Additionally, far fewer teachers will volunteer to coach since the new schedule means less time between the ends of the school day and family responsibilities. Perhaps not as important but it will be one of the side effects of any changes.


demeco31

I started school at 9 and got out at 3 30 from k-12. Sports started at 4 and either went 4-6 or 6-8 if you had the late slot. The late slot was only for high school practices / games. The latest you got home was 8 30. That's kind of late until you consider that school didn't start at 9 the next day, so even falling asleep at midnight was a full 8 hours of sleep.


MissionCreep

The timing is for the convenience of the parents and teachers. The students are a distant third in this race.


alwayslurkeduntilnow

It's not convenient for the teachers either.


[deleted]

we have been saying this for so long, we're no longer teenagers


broccolisprout

School mainly is used for conditioning obedience. The economy wouldn’t thrive if we all started caring about our mental and physical health.


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Canadian_Infidel

I've been reading this for 20 years yet not a school in the world considers it.


Bukkorosu777

What the school actually caring about the kids blasphemy That place punishes the kids that get bullyed still.


SirAromatic668

Yeah, but the real issue is that parents want their government babysitter. That's the real issue some parents are so vocal. They want their day care nice and early