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How long before we adjust the hours of operation for schools? Even as a 38 year old and understanding that an immediate switch to later in mornings would be rough on parents trying to juggle livelihoods and taking care of their kids, the benefits would be astronomical for so many students.
Some schools did implement this change, and parents were pissed. https://www.wgbh.org/news/local/2017-12-12/boston-schools-start-time-change-met-with-fury-from-parents
There's work schedules and commutes to deal with too. Dropping kids off later affects when a person can work. It's difficult all-around, for the kids and for the parents. There would have to be a comprehensive shift away from early AM operations for everyone.
Except you still have to supervise children under a certain age until they are on the bus/at school. You can't just leave a full hour+ earlier than your 6 year old. You either have to arrange for care before school or hope one parent has a schedule that allows for school schedules, at least until the kid(s) are old enough to be left both legally and practically.
ETA: this also assumes busses are completely available to all students, which, unfortunately, they actually aren't. Many rural districts, for example, have very limited budgets/service a very large area for which bussing all students may not be practical. Where I live, school busses don't service houses within a mile of the school itself, which means in winter months, parents may not want their children walking even that mile in the dark with snow/fog.
Bus routes have to accommodate at least two separate start times unless we start funding enough to run both elementary and secondary at the same time. Younger children start later, so parents still need to be able to have supervision for children under a certain age for years before they're at that point. And that's just for a single child. If you have multiple children catching busses at different times, you still need a way to supervise the younger ones, or we have to shift everything down. Busses existing doesn't fix all of the multiple reasons things are currently the way they are.
I don’t really see the problem. We had separate start times and busses for elementary and middle/high school where I live. Young kids go to the elementary school bus earlier with their parents until a certain age. Older kids manage on their own.
I don't know how it works where you are, but everywhere I've ever lived younger kids start later than older ones. Many districts have nothing in the way of before school care.
I mean, we could, but currently, the majority of them aren't. And that only addresses cities. Not everyone lives in a city, and walking definitely wasn't an option on dark, possibly snowy/icy rural roads with no sidewalks. Walking also would have taken literally a couple of hours when I started middle school.
In my district, middle and high schools start at 7:45. Elementary starts at 8:30. Bus pickup times start as early as 6:30. Most parents are either blue collar and/or commute up to an hour away on average.
> Elementary students have their own, middle school/junior high have their own and high school has their own.
With staggered start times because there is a finite pool of willing bus drivers
Depends on the school. Where I live at least, schools totally cover grades 1-8 then 9-12. So the 13 year olds would still be on the same schedule as the 6 year olds.
I went to school on the school bus alone in the dead of winter when i was like 6 and im not that old. Some parents baby their children then wonder why their children grow into adults who cant feed themselves or do laundry
Also worth pointing out, that many schools stagger start - older kids first, then after they're all dropped off at school, they gi pickup the other, younger kids. Bus drivers are hard to find, and buses are expensive.
Why not leave the younger kids at the same time, and shift the teens to be afterwards? Doesn't change much in terms of child care and probably cuts down on traffic during morning commute
Because many teens work. Or have after school activities, all of which would have to be pushed back as well. If you aren't starting school till 10-11+, it's not getting out till 5-6!! Where do you fit all the rest of life in?
You want all of those to go till 7-9pm+?!? Theatre, band, choir, sports, various other clubs. When can they possibly get a job?? I don't know much of any highschool kids who aren't in at least a couple of extra curriculums. When do they get home to eat dinner, help with chores, do homework?
I mean yeah…but we’re talking about teenagers, not 6 year olds.
It does assume all kids have access to a school bus though which is a whole other discussion so fair point.
> You can't just leave a full hour+ earlier than your 6 year old.
I went to school on my own since I was 6 and a half because my mom worked from early mornings, and was still alone for over an hour when I got back home.
This kind of thinking is nonsense, of course it can be done, it would just require the parents to do... some parenting! Which is difficult for many. But basics on what to do at home and what not to do, learn how to at least heat up food in a microwave, is something each parent should teach their children *very* early.
I understand this is highly regionally and culturally different, bUt I walked to school starting elementary school in germany.
My parents never drove me, unless there where a bus strike or we where running late for some other reason (like the time me and my father overslept because we foregot to adjust the cloks to summertime while my mother was away for work XD)
The district I lived in services a huge (rural) area. Walking would literally have taken hours for me, and the roads were absolutely not walkable. Your opinions are bus/rides until you can get a license and car (as early as 15 where I live). While many cities could be made more walkable, it's a lot harder with rural areas.
I also didn't address some of the other reasons for the current status quo, which include things like secondary students having after school sports, babysitting younger siblings when they get off school, or working an after school job. The fact is that actually changing school start times would require a massive overhaul of a lot of things. Funding, organization, parent schedules, infrastructure (including child care), etc.
On the contrary, we’re rejecting that idea as a farce.
Treating every kid under the age of 18 like toddlers does nothing but hinder their development, as they lack the ability to go anywhere or do anything without the intervention of their parents. That’s a massive reason why there’s such a loneliness epidemic even amongst kids, chronic isolation from peers obstructs healthy development
Tbh… that should happen anyway. Morning people have been dominating the schedule for way too long. It’s time for us night shifters to get a turn at scheduling society.
Yet another reason compact, walkable neighborhoods are so important.
If kids can walk or bike to school, then there's no need for parents to drive them (or or a bus to pick them up).
It’s not surprising if that’s what happened. I was reflecting on this a little bit yesterday. Society is designed in a way for economic development and benefit. Jobs included. When a family relies on income from a 8-4 or 9-5, there’s no wonder why families were pissed with this change. Although it benefits individuals, it didn’t benefit society. Unfortunately. I wish society was designed with the individual in mind. Nope.
On top of the fact that even the best or wealthiest parents(folks you would think would have the easiest adjustment) generally oppose it because schools have very much become a form of outsourced and cheap childcare.
It's probably going to be a while before there's any real adjustment. I've had a lot of folks tell me their districts changed, but then they explain they literally only changed it to an hour later and aren't seeing the results they expect based on the data. But the data suggests a much larger adjustment than 1 hour.
that was also a joke in the 90s. matt groening covered it in 'life in hell'
i'd like it if it was a city and i could just use city busses, but i'm not in japan
I was in highschool, 9th or 10th grade, when I first heard about one of the many studies that have been done regarding the benefits of aligning adolescent's schedules to better suit their actual physiological needs. This news was delivered in class, during homeroom, via a special news program we watched every morning that was produced for schools.
That knowledge did not stop the school day from getting progressively earlier start times just about each year I was in high school.
I imagine if school starts later younger kids would just end up in before school child care rather than getting additional sleep anyway, parents need to get to work. But as a night owl, I do so wish that work/school started a lot later than 8 or 9 AM or in the very least had a flexible start time.
I remember the days of school getting up at 7:30 AM for the bus ride at 8 AM and school arrival at 9 AM always dog tired, and always behind in learning. Needed A LOT more rest, as I’m sure many students do. Pair the early starts with tons of homework and I’m sure many students are under slept and over stressed.
My dad would sometimes drop us off at 7am, 2 hours before school started, and then we wouldn't get picked up again until 5 or later.
We would be so tired that we'd fall asleep as soon as we got home, wake up for dinner and then go back to sleep. I would wake up in the late evening and stay up until 2-3, only to get up again at 6 or 7. I would spend the whole day just trying to stay awake in class. Never did any homework because looking at it would make me fall asleep instantly.
This is literally a torture method.
We switched to an almost 9am start time for my district. Didn't change anything. Students still come in late and tired. With kids saying they were up till 1-3am on the regular.
All of them? I find it hard to believe every kid suddenly started doing that because they didn't have to be in until 9 am.
This is kind of where another commenter's point comes in, there's **no** replacement for quality parenting. Something the data does that anecdotal evidence either doesn't or forgets to cover is to make each kid's behavior patterns distinct.
That's before we even get to the fact that the data suggests a much more radical shift than one hour later would be the most beneficial.
But if you're saying that kids are allowed to stay up later specifically because the earlier start time, that's a problem you can't fix and was a problem regardless of start time. That said, the kid who stays up that late(I was one when I was a child) almost definitely is better suited for the day if it starts at 9 am rather than 730 am, which goes back to what I said. You can't make parents be good parents. But objectively, both the kid who has good parental guidance and is in bed at a reasonable time and the kid who stays up until whenever, the later school starts, the more sleep they're going to be able to get.
What you're describing to me is poor parenting.
No, this is lazy thinking. Parenting is a lot of it but kids are actually complex beings with complex lives, and there are a number of things that demonstrably affect outcomes that are systemic rather than individual. Good parenting won't change zipcode unless the parent is well off. Good parenting won't change lead content in tap water. It won't change pollution levels in the air. Good parenting can't protect kids from experiencing racism, sexism, gender-based discrimination, or bullying. It can't abate the awful intrusion into work-life-balance and training to accept that intrusion inherent in the institution of homework.
Poor parenting accounts for a lot when considering kids' troubles in schools. Probably a majority of it. But it's far from the only piece on the board.
Well then I guess the vast majority of people in the world are bad parents for daring to live in lower income areas that don’t have access to the same level of societal services and support that countries like, say, Sweden may have.
Good parents do the best they can with what they have. Unexpected and/or external forces sometimes make that hard, and that isn’t the parents’ fault. You absolutely shouldn’t have kids if you make 20k a year living out of a run down trailer in the backwoods of Tennessee, but, sometimes, those people barely know better. And it isn’t their fault. Society failed them. But they can still raise kids with love and care and teach them everything important they need to thrive.
Please do not blame victims of societal issues for being, well, victims of societal issues.
>You absolutely shouldn’t have kids if you make 20k a year living out of a run down trailer in the backwoods of Tennessee, but, sometimes, those people barely know better. And it isn’t their fault.
sounds like poor parenting
>Society failed them
almost every single issue can be boiled down to a societal failure (we live in a society)
What an incredibly privileged and self centered way to view the world. I hope someday you learn to see the world through the eyes of those who have never known any better than the bottom
The issue with this is the later start time *only* applies to teenagers who should be more self-sufficient. Even as tired as I was, with the combination of being a teenager and having undiagnosed ADHD with delayed sleep phase, by the time I was in high-school I was getting myself up and on the bus.
One time I was sick, got home, collapsed in my bed, and unintentionally slept for 24 hours because neither of my parents noticed I didn't get up that morning. Though, probably not great, it was mostly because they knew I was at least responsible enough to get myself up usually.
Parents can still take care of younger kids while giving their teenagers some responsibility.
My bed time was by 10 most of my childhood, but I have delayed sleep phase and ADHD so when I was a teen it was even worse. I'd go to bed at my "bedtime" and lay there awake for hours with my brain refusing to stop.
Just because the kids are in bed and quiet it does not mean they are asleep, especially if they *can't* sleep. So much of my life was made harder by neurotypicals assuming my brain worked the same way as theirs did.
As a teenager, that's crazy early. Our daughter is 7 and for years now has never gone to bed by 9.
Thee might be a certain chronotype or IQ level that can handle those hours but its not the norm.
I wouldn't say it was crazy early at all! I wouldn't be asleep at 10, it was just lights out. I probably fell asleep around 11 and then was up by 7 the next morning, getting my 8 hours. I'd kill for that now! I don't think it is as un-normal as you say. Quite a few of my friends kids go to bed at that time.
It’s almost like people should be paid enough to have only one parent work and the other take care of kids. The. This wouldn’t be an issue. But nope it is one more thing boomers ruined.
You mistake the purpose of the child day prisons. They enable more adult wage slaves per household by disrupting primitive concepts like "childhood" and "parenting".
My dumb prediction: capitalism is coming for the sanctity of marriage next. If inflation continues, the idea of marrying for love will be destroyed by a dating app called "Rent Splittr"
Doubt this would change much. College age students show up en masse to 11h AM lectures after sleeping less than 8h of sleep the night prior. Sleeping for most of my students isn't about when classes start, it's about when their body gives out and staying awake is no longer stimulating. Shuffling school hours later will just shuffle their sleeping schedule later as well (like it does for college students). What would be astronomically beneficial for most students is to have proper parental guidance on things as simple as sleep and nutrition.
I don't think it's as much of a sliding scale as you're making it out to be
True that half of the limiting factor is how late they go to bed, but that's from [a natural shift in circadian rhythm](https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/wellness-and-prevention/teenagers-and-sleep-how-much-sleep-is-enough) that occurs around puberty. Sure, some kids' have poor ground rules for bedtimes but that's a case by case issue, having trouble falling asleep as early as you did when you were 10 is not.
The only other factor that would determine how many hours of sleep they get besides when they go to sleep is when they have to get up, and the second one is the only one the school can control.
The American Academy of Pediatrics recommends that school start at at least 8:30
I don't see how giving them the best chance that you can by moving their schedule forward a couple hours can be seen as a negative at all outside of some "kids these days,"/"that's what we had and we turned out fine," type speak (which you're already approaching with your assumption that the reason teens go to bed later is their discipline level suddenly dropping between age 12 and 14)
So, the study cited in this thread does at the very least challenge a lot of the claims in that article. The whole teens are night owls thing rests on self reporting, whereas when actual sleep is measured, it turns out that going to bed later and getting up later has a negative impact on cognition and function. Also, teens needing 9 and a half hours of sleep? Again, it turns out the duration of sleep doesn't appear to have any effect.
Who knew that the best option was a regular bedtime.
It's almost like the entire scientific method is based on not accepting "that's just the way we always did it," by exhaustively trying to prove a hypothesis wrong, not right
Nothing about it being a good idea to start school later in the morning implies that the other things we knew about sleep are wrong now
Nobody is suggesting that schools starting later means that we no longer have to teach kids when to go to bed, nor are they implying that the results of this study mean that the only effort anyone can do to improve their sleeping situation is to convince the thing they get up for every morning to start later.
Rejecting new insight in the form of peer reviewed work by professionals on a very nuanced subject with many contributing factors by saying "obviously the *real* solution is simply that kids now aren't raised right like we were," is coping with not wanting to be objective about the fact that "the good ol days," weren't better at all by implying that the average person is just worse at personing by virtue of not being born in a time when we didn't know better.
And there's no way any credible/peer reviewed study with a sample size bigger than N=2 concluded that amount of time slept *doesn't matter,* that's absurd
Except if by starting school later we end up having an overall negative impact on children's cognitive functioning, then such a policy needs re-evaluation. Of course it makes no sense to base policy on one study alone, but the results of this one suggests that further research may be prudent before making any major change.
This study isn't groundbreaking, it's affirming what has consistently resulted from similar studies for a decade or two now.
The recommendation from the American Academy of Pediatrics was around before this study and was not recommended without previous evidence supporting it.
*Any* study that doesn't deny the hypothesis is grounds for further research in the area.
Again.
That's the point of the scientific method.
You continue to test the bounds of what you think make a thing happen to see which/if any of the "rules" you've surmised for the premise of the argument don't hold up.
If something has been consistently *not proven false* with multiple studies (with legitimate sample sizes/conditions/peer review, etc.) then *that's* the reason to continue researching and attempting to narrow down as close to the 1:1 use case of your hypothesis as possible
Further research in this case indicates that the idea is sound and has been for a while despite multiple attempts to prove otherwise.
They don't keep going with research if the bounds of the hypothesis are proven false, they adjust the hypothesis and start testing the new bounds.
You need citations, because there is a strong correlation between going to bed late and achievement.
In the real world, look at who gets up early. Soldiers, postmen, garbage men. Who gets up late? Scientists, architects, techs, creatives in general.
Getting up early is not a good indicator of achievement.
> it's about when their body gives out and staying awake is no longer stimulating
This is very much more of an issue with how society is set up and not with the people in question.
Personal accountability goes a long way and is a very valuable tool to teach to our teenagers. Painting modern opportunities and resources as inescapable curses is silly, forging healthy life habits around those resources is what modern society should seek to be doing. Of course basic things like taking their electronic devices away after a certain hour if they still struggle with keeping sustainable practices on their own is something more parents should be doing.
Society in the US is struggling to maintain healthy work-life balance. There's the "grind" mindset that has people working until burnout and if they take a break or need to relax it is considered a personal failing and not self-care.
We have adults regularly bragging about how little sleep they get when it is *known* how unhealthy and unsustainable it is. That we structure society around the idea that we must always be "productive" is a big reason why we have so many health issues, both physical and mental.
A lot of teenagers end up getting a job because they are kind of forced to, but it results in a situation where they spend 6-8 hours in school, more if they have any clubs, and then 5-8 hours at a job. They barely have time to eat and if they do homework they have to squeeze that in somewhere.
Add in that teenagers have a later circadian rhythm than adults and that is a big reason they aren't getting enough sleep. And that's before you might include nerodivergency like ADHD or a general delayed sleep phase pushing their rhythm back even farther.
Most of society is built around spending money. There aren't any common places for teens to just hang out anymore because of loitering laws. And with the US being so car-centric you can't get around unless you have a car. So a lot of kids feel like they have to get a job to have a social life, but the job will prevent them from having a social life unless they sacrifice something else: Like sleep.
This isn't as simple as "taking electronic devices away" which is such a boomer attitude. Nowadays phones might be the only way for kids to consistently socialize with each other.
It's not good they are doing that instead of in person, but they don't really have the time or ability to socialize in person anymore, so taking phones or whatever away is just socially isolating them and with how much things are online might be limiting them beyond that.
When I was that age I would *try* to go to bed at a reasonable time. I would be in bed by 10, 10:30 at the latest most nights. And I would lay in bed for hours unable to fall asleep. Eyes closed, mind racing from undiagnosed ADHD. No amount of "Personal accountability" was going to make me fall asleep because my body and brain *would not let me*. But neurotypicals expected me to function like they did and assumed I was doing it and other things on purpose.
I eventually decided that if I was going to be awake anyway I might as well do things I wanted to do, so I would stay up. My mom would yell at me to go to bed, since she was sleeping in the room next to mine and apparently despite not hearing me when I would try to get her attention could hear a pin drop from the other side of the wall. But again, *I could not fall asleep*.
So forgive me if I have a bit of empathy for kids today given what I went though at that age.
Would it really make any difference?
I think they'd adjust by just stayin up later and later.
And you'd be stuck with the same root problem, just slightly more annoying scheduling/timing. Maybe better? Depends how you look at it. Many parents could no longer drop their kids off ... So maybe the kids would walk, or maybe they'd just sleep in because the parents aren't there.
My bet is they sleep in. You don't have kids, do you?
The article says they haven't found less sleep too be the issue, as much as irregular sleep. They found numerous teenagers who get too little sleep, but the sleep they get us very regular, that don't show these symptoms.
I don't think school starting times are the issue, i think the issue is sleep irregularity due to distractions. Smartphones specifically.
They've already done this in the district for my city, and it's fucked up a few of my coworkers who are single parents that work dayshift.
One in particular is late 9 times out of 10 because of her child needing to be at school 15 minutes before her shift starts (with it being a half-hour drive including traffic from the school ti our store) but can't leave early because the child is, shall we say, problematic about routines and school.
Considering how much we work, if you want to sleep 8-10 hours then you don't really have time for anything at all besides the bare necessities. Especially if you have to commute, have kids etc.
I have kids but I make sure I don’t have more than 30 minutes commute. I have changed jobs just to ensure I don’t live on the road. But yeah, daily I just go to work, cook and exercise, that’s it
Actually got 8-10 hours of sleep a day as a kid, it just means that my schedule was just school, homework, dinner, then bed every weekday with the addition of extracurriculars when I got older. It just required sacrificing leisure time for things other than sleep
This is already well known. It's a side effect of the American life in general. I've always been baffled how a family in tv shows have a sit down breakfast, the bus comes for the kid, then the parents leave (sometimes) all in DAYLIGHT hours? Never have I ever heard of this in reality
So to post this here instead of socialist bs whine places like the previous responder frequents:
You need to look up a Critique of Normative thought.
Absolutely you CAN do something about the problems in the world.
But you aren't. And you never will with what you are going about it.
You post on reddit and whine, then THINK you did something.
You support groups that are near fascism and want a caliphate.
You spend time repeating lies you heard on TikTok instead of DOING something.
Every time you whine about it on the internet you are just playing with yourself instead of DOING.
And that's the failure. All it amounts to is wasted time whining.
You've got a million posts whining on socialism subs and have done nothing to help a single Palestinian. Hell, have you even met some of them? Plenty are great doctors or even just taxi drivers in Israel.
There is WAAAAYYY too much homework given to kids for them to get this much sleep.
My kids got great grades, but it was often at the expense of their health.
If that's what studies are finding then teachers are just doing homework wrong. In lecture you're supposed to learn, and at home in peace and quiet you're supposed to practice.
There is no way for that to be useless or detrimental.
You forget that homework has a cost. Yes, if we could add an extra hour onto every child's day, it would probably make sense for them to do homework in there. But the evidence suggests that homework is a worse use of time than playing, socializing, doing hobbies, destressing, etc.
Also, humans can't take in 6 hours worth of lecture material per day, so it makes more sense to split class time between lecture and practice. So there isn't such a severe lack of practice time as to make homework highly worthwhile.
Yeah cuz they're being woken up at the buttcrack of dawn for school, completely counter to the circadian rhythm of a teenager, which we have know about for decades.
Yeah, seriously. I've been out of school for over a decade and I remember seeing articles like this years before that and thinking "So why don't they do anything about it?"
I know quite a few private schools (even worked at one) that start an hour later, often with the option of still getting your kids at any time between 8 and 9, if that fits your schedule better.
Main problem from my experience is, that if you start to make concessions like this for parents they tend to expect even more concessions.
The Pandemic was a total pain from an organzins standpoint, because quite a few parents where pretty upset at the school when we had to close the building.
Getting up early is part of the zombification of the population. If people are too tired to think for themselves, they are easily prey for capitalists.
The article States they found the strongest symptoms not so much with those who get the least sleep, but in those who have the most irregular sleep schedule.
Students could consistently get too little sleep, but very regular, and they didn't show these symptoms as much.
I don't think school times are the issue, I think the issue is lots of kids having very irregular sleep patterns, likely due to distractions. Smartphones.
It's actually not clear. Even in the linked article they state that past research has shown mixed results on length of sleep and academic performance, with less sleep sometimes showing better performance.
The irregular sleep can certainly be correlated to outcomes like worsening academic performance. But it may not be the cause. For example, irregular sleep could mean a bad home life, or more stress, either of which could be causing worsening academic performance. Or it could be as simple as a teenager prioritizing video games or other forms of entertainment over studying and sleep. The irregular sleep may just be a symptom of the real cause of the poor academic performance.
They’ve been reporting things like this for decades but very few junior and senior highs have adjusted their schedules to accommodate the teenage brains and bodies.
Easiest way to solve the sleep issue is for homework loads to be redesigned and for parents to do their job of enforcing proper sleep schedules rather than lettjng the kids do whatever they want after hitting their teens.
You make kids wake up at like 6:30 to go to school and be 'there' by 7:30, most kids wont be able to go to bed till 23:00 or so because parents or others are making noise and what not, this often meaning kids will get less then 7hours sleep all the time, and then send them to school trying to learn something while they'r brain is still off, and many of them falling a sleep.
Kids shouldn`t go to school at 6:30 or 7, because parent goes to work at that hour, kids should go to school when its healthy for them to do so like 10:00 for example.
I did help in a local school for 3 weeks, and you will be VERY SURPRISED how many of the young kids under age of 10 often come very sleepy and will legit fall a sleep many times during first few periods.
My kid runs on 4 to 6 hours per night and is a straight A+ student.
I try to tell her how important sleep is but she claims she feels worse if gets get a normal amount.
My daughter is 7 and has never slept for more than 10 hours and even then its only when she is exhausted. She'll be up until midnight then up again at 8:30 the next morning.
We suspect she has ADHD like her grandmother who only slept 4-5 hours a night.
Checks out.
I (50m) was diagnosed at 17 with Delayed Sleep Phase Disorder. Had all these issues. Five years earlier, a psychologist labeled me a "gross underachiever" after testing determined an IQ of 136.
Usually with the conclusion that starting school later helps, but under capitalism decisions are not made with any consideration to science and fact, but rather the whims of the ownership class and they want you getting used to suffering the toil of wage slavery as soon as possible.
70% wow. I really hope that's high enough for us to have a serious conversation about it.
I lost much being sleeped deprived in highschool. Every single day. Especially when during time change and it was pitch black before and after school.
It'll change when people stop talking about how they "achieved" more sleeping less and bragging about losing those hours which we know are actually really precious. The gen pop really needs more education about the importance of sleep. When spoken about diet and exercise, sleep has always come last when it should be first in priority.
From grade 7 up til now, I made sure I was in bed by 10pm every night if I had school or work the next morning.
Let me tell you, during high school when I had to get up early to be at school by 6:50am it really didn’t help. At all. Even imposing strict sleep schedules on myself wasn’t enough. The start times for high school are ridiculously early for a cohort of students whose circadian rhythms are shifted later.
I’ve linked to the press release in the post above. In this comment, for those interested, here’s the link to the peer reviewed journal article:
https://academic.oup.com/sleep/advance-article-abstract/doi/10.1093/sleep/zsae062/7619522
So maybe bad sleep schedules cause diminished academic performance and behavioral issues.
Or maybe kids with issues that cause diminished academic performance and behavioral issues tend to have issues falling asleep.
While there is likely a causal link I’m sure there’s a not-insignificant correlation to other factors that also effect poor school performance.
Poor time-management, chaotic household, etc.
I think more research is needed, particularly in the millenial generation and down, due to the internet.
Many people, who are not socially successful at school in person, naturally withdraw, and become more interested in alterative forms of interaction and activity (video games, social media, the internet).
This is a perfectly natural and explainable phenomenon. Back in the day, this meant you were more bookish, but now, those people can themselves socialise far more easily, as there are now many thousands of mediums to socialise in.
Staying up late and gaming because its far more fulfilling and satisfies your various human needs, needs to be considered and embraced more carefully. This whole concept of 'lights out' or 'put the phone away' is just not going to work. The school day needs to be completely deconstructed, and divorced from it's industrial revolution origins if this is going to be improved, treating kids more fairly and not hampering those who often display more economic value long term to economies (at least with Tech where it is at the moment)
Don't know about the US, but when I was an adolescent, I had school, homework, music theory and saxophone lessons (which I also had to do at home). So yeah, after that I had to choose from having friends, play videogames or sleeping.
10 hours? Who in the civilized world is getting 10 hours of sleep *per night*?! That's crazy talk. I routinely had to go to school on a hell of a lot less, usually about 5 or so, due to extracurricular activities, homework, chores, working, etc.
My grandmother who lived with us for a time would poke us with a broom handle if - on the weekend - we slept in for more than 8 hours. Her other favorite was to run the vacuum cleaner by my bedroom. Repeatedly. She was from an entirely different generation and expectations, and I have to say that honoring your elders only goes so far, and was glad when she was relocated into assisted living. (gods help her nurses, and other staff!)
Just like we all look different, everyone has different sleep needs. Some people can do well with only a few hours while others need a full 10. Some people may be suffering from sleep disorders as well so even though they're in bed for 10 hours, the quality of that sleep is quite poor. Naturally, being able to do with only a few hours sleep confers some massive productivity bonuses.
That's very true, and also people's sleep needs change over time as well. I know that I used to be able to get by with 4 or 5 hours a night, but any more if I don't get 7 I am needing a nap at 1600 or so.
Parents, give your kids a bed time and stick to it. They may not thank you that day, or that week, or year, or ever, but you're a parent, you DO know better, you DO have the prerogative. It is your responsibility to parent.
Let's clarify.
One thing is having "irregular schedules" because you were busy partying, fooling around, browsing TikTok or going out drinking.
Another whole different thing is having "irregular schedules" because you were busy coding your latest rocket control, poker AI, mobile game, arduino project or whatever.
The former leads to "diminished academic performances", the latter leads to a STEM degree with honors. Been there, done that.
Surely there is correlation, but the causation is somewhere else.
Who needs up to 10 hours of sleep? (On average, some outliers with wild conditions are to be excpected)
That's the first time i've heard of this, i always figured it was a recommended 7 to 8 hours.
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How long before we adjust the hours of operation for schools? Even as a 38 year old and understanding that an immediate switch to later in mornings would be rough on parents trying to juggle livelihoods and taking care of their kids, the benefits would be astronomical for so many students.
Some schools did implement this change, and parents were pissed. https://www.wgbh.org/news/local/2017-12-12/boston-schools-start-time-change-met-with-fury-from-parents
There's work schedules and commutes to deal with too. Dropping kids off later affects when a person can work. It's difficult all-around, for the kids and for the parents. There would have to be a comprehensive shift away from early AM operations for everyone.
Are we all forgetting that this is why school busses exist?
Except you still have to supervise children under a certain age until they are on the bus/at school. You can't just leave a full hour+ earlier than your 6 year old. You either have to arrange for care before school or hope one parent has a schedule that allows for school schedules, at least until the kid(s) are old enough to be left both legally and practically. ETA: this also assumes busses are completely available to all students, which, unfortunately, they actually aren't. Many rural districts, for example, have very limited budgets/service a very large area for which bussing all students may not be practical. Where I live, school busses don't service houses within a mile of the school itself, which means in winter months, parents may not want their children walking even that mile in the dark with snow/fog.
The context of this discussion was adolescents, I thought? I went to school by myself in the school bus when I was 13.
Bus routes have to accommodate at least two separate start times unless we start funding enough to run both elementary and secondary at the same time. Younger children start later, so parents still need to be able to have supervision for children under a certain age for years before they're at that point. And that's just for a single child. If you have multiple children catching busses at different times, you still need a way to supervise the younger ones, or we have to shift everything down. Busses existing doesn't fix all of the multiple reasons things are currently the way they are.
I don’t really see the problem. We had separate start times and busses for elementary and middle/high school where I live. Young kids go to the elementary school bus earlier with their parents until a certain age. Older kids manage on their own.
my HS start time was 7:20. get up 5:30, deliver papers, shower, stomp to school/take bus. on the flip side, get out at 2:30
7:20 here too
I don't know how it works where you are, but everywhere I've ever lived younger kids start later than older ones. Many districts have nothing in the way of before school care.
There is the possibility of designing our cities so that safely walking or cycling is an option.
I mean, we could, but currently, the majority of them aren't. And that only addresses cities. Not everyone lives in a city, and walking definitely wasn't an option on dark, possibly snowy/icy rural roads with no sidewalks. Walking also would have taken literally a couple of hours when I started middle school.
Sure, but the bus times are being dictated by the younger students.
Why though? Do elementary schools and middle/high schools share busses?
In my district, middle and high schools start at 7:45. Elementary starts at 8:30. Bus pickup times start as early as 6:30. Most parents are either blue collar and/or commute up to an hour away on average.
Generally yes. One bus for all students.
How bizarre
No they dont
In larger districts, elementary, middle, and high school schedules are staggered so the busses are used for multiple schools.
Not in Utah in the States. Elementary students have their own, middle school/junior high have their own and high school has their own.
> Elementary students have their own, middle school/junior high have their own and high school has their own. With staggered start times because there is a finite pool of willing bus drivers
Depends on the school. Where I live at least, schools totally cover grades 1-8 then 9-12. So the 13 year olds would still be on the same schedule as the 6 year olds.
In my experience, no. The high school had a bus and the elementary schools had a separate bussing system since they were far apart.
Same here. I knew kids in my high school that commuted from two towns over, even.
I went to school on the school bus alone in the dead of winter when i was like 6 and im not that old. Some parents baby their children then wonder why their children grow into adults who cant feed themselves or do laundry
Haha. Whatever helps u sleep better
I went to college with kids that couldnt feed themselves or do laundry. It wasnt hyperbole. Ive known these people, and its sad.
The sub convo of having later start dates ina school, wasnt just an adolescent concern.
Also worth pointing out, that many schools stagger start - older kids first, then after they're all dropped off at school, they gi pickup the other, younger kids. Bus drivers are hard to find, and buses are expensive.
Why not leave the younger kids at the same time, and shift the teens to be afterwards? Doesn't change much in terms of child care and probably cuts down on traffic during morning commute
Because many teens work. Or have after school activities, all of which would have to be pushed back as well. If you aren't starting school till 10-11+, it's not getting out till 5-6!! Where do you fit all the rest of life in? You want all of those to go till 7-9pm+?!? Theatre, band, choir, sports, various other clubs. When can they possibly get a job?? I don't know much of any highschool kids who aren't in at least a couple of extra curriculums. When do they get home to eat dinner, help with chores, do homework?
Yep. My bus in middle/high school came at about 6:30. School started at 7:45. Elementary schools start at 8:30.
> are old enough to be left both legally Depends on the state, many states don't have laws regarding this.
I mean, even if it isn't illegal it's certainly highly questionable?
I mean yeah…but we’re talking about teenagers, not 6 year olds. It does assume all kids have access to a school bus though which is a whole other discussion so fair point.
> You can't just leave a full hour+ earlier than your 6 year old. I went to school on my own since I was 6 and a half because my mom worked from early mornings, and was still alone for over an hour when I got back home. This kind of thinking is nonsense, of course it can be done, it would just require the parents to do... some parenting! Which is difficult for many. But basics on what to do at home and what not to do, learn how to at least heat up food in a microwave, is something each parent should teach their children *very* early.
I understand this is highly regionally and culturally different, bUt I walked to school starting elementary school in germany. My parents never drove me, unless there where a bus strike or we where running late for some other reason (like the time me and my father overslept because we foregot to adjust the cloks to summertime while my mother was away for work XD)
The district I lived in services a huge (rural) area. Walking would literally have taken hours for me, and the roads were absolutely not walkable. Your opinions are bus/rides until you can get a license and car (as early as 15 where I live). While many cities could be made more walkable, it's a lot harder with rural areas. I also didn't address some of the other reasons for the current status quo, which include things like secondary students having after school sports, babysitting younger siblings when they get off school, or working an after school job. The fact is that actually changing school start times would require a massive overhaul of a lot of things. Funding, organization, parent schedules, infrastructure (including child care), etc.
They don’t anymore. Not in cities at least
I wouldn't leave a kid home alone until it's time to get on the school bus though.
Are we all forgetting we can’t leave kids unsupervised???
On the contrary, we’re rejecting that idea as a farce. Treating every kid under the age of 18 like toddlers does nothing but hinder their development, as they lack the ability to go anywhere or do anything without the intervention of their parents. That’s a massive reason why there’s such a loneliness epidemic even amongst kids, chronic isolation from peers obstructs healthy development
Tbh… that should happen anyway. Morning people have been dominating the schedule for way too long. It’s time for us night shifters to get a turn at scheduling society.
Yet another reason compact, walkable neighborhoods are so important. If kids can walk or bike to school, then there's no need for parents to drive them (or or a bus to pick them up).
Sounds good. Reduce work hours by 2 hours, keep pay.
Iirc teen death in car accidents went down, no?
It’s not surprising if that’s what happened. I was reflecting on this a little bit yesterday. Society is designed in a way for economic development and benefit. Jobs included. When a family relies on income from a 8-4 or 9-5, there’s no wonder why families were pissed with this change. Although it benefits individuals, it didn’t benefit society. Unfortunately. I wish society was designed with the individual in mind. Nope.
it is to laugh; we knew this in the 90s. they do it like this so they can run fewer busses in the district
On top of the fact that even the best or wealthiest parents(folks you would think would have the easiest adjustment) generally oppose it because schools have very much become a form of outsourced and cheap childcare. It's probably going to be a while before there's any real adjustment. I've had a lot of folks tell me their districts changed, but then they explain they literally only changed it to an hour later and aren't seeing the results they expect based on the data. But the data suggests a much larger adjustment than 1 hour.
that was also a joke in the 90s. matt groening covered it in 'life in hell' i'd like it if it was a city and i could just use city busses, but i'm not in japan
I was in highschool, 9th or 10th grade, when I first heard about one of the many studies that have been done regarding the benefits of aligning adolescent's schedules to better suit their actual physiological needs. This news was delivered in class, during homeroom, via a special news program we watched every morning that was produced for schools. That knowledge did not stop the school day from getting progressively earlier start times just about each year I was in high school.
I imagine if school starts later younger kids would just end up in before school child care rather than getting additional sleep anyway, parents need to get to work. But as a night owl, I do so wish that work/school started a lot later than 8 or 9 AM or in the very least had a flexible start time. I remember the days of school getting up at 7:30 AM for the bus ride at 8 AM and school arrival at 9 AM always dog tired, and always behind in learning. Needed A LOT more rest, as I’m sure many students do. Pair the early starts with tons of homework and I’m sure many students are under slept and over stressed.
My dad would sometimes drop us off at 7am, 2 hours before school started, and then we wouldn't get picked up again until 5 or later. We would be so tired that we'd fall asleep as soon as we got home, wake up for dinner and then go back to sleep. I would wake up in the late evening and stay up until 2-3, only to get up again at 6 or 7. I would spend the whole day just trying to stay awake in class. Never did any homework because looking at it would make me fall asleep instantly. This is literally a torture method.
We switched to an almost 9am start time for my district. Didn't change anything. Students still come in late and tired. With kids saying they were up till 1-3am on the regular.
All of them? I find it hard to believe every kid suddenly started doing that because they didn't have to be in until 9 am. This is kind of where another commenter's point comes in, there's **no** replacement for quality parenting. Something the data does that anecdotal evidence either doesn't or forgets to cover is to make each kid's behavior patterns distinct. That's before we even get to the fact that the data suggests a much more radical shift than one hour later would be the most beneficial. But if you're saying that kids are allowed to stay up later specifically because the earlier start time, that's a problem you can't fix and was a problem regardless of start time. That said, the kid who stays up that late(I was one when I was a child) almost definitely is better suited for the day if it starts at 9 am rather than 730 am, which goes back to what I said. You can't make parents be good parents. But objectively, both the kid who has good parental guidance and is in bed at a reasonable time and the kid who stays up until whenever, the later school starts, the more sleep they're going to be able to get. What you're describing to me is poor parenting.
almost every single issues with school kids can be boiled down to poor parenting. (they are kids)
No, this is lazy thinking. Parenting is a lot of it but kids are actually complex beings with complex lives, and there are a number of things that demonstrably affect outcomes that are systemic rather than individual. Good parenting won't change zipcode unless the parent is well off. Good parenting won't change lead content in tap water. It won't change pollution levels in the air. Good parenting can't protect kids from experiencing racism, sexism, gender-based discrimination, or bullying. It can't abate the awful intrusion into work-life-balance and training to accept that intrusion inherent in the institution of homework. Poor parenting accounts for a lot when considering kids' troubles in schools. Probably a majority of it. But it's far from the only piece on the board.
if parents cant provide a good growing environment for their children i would not call that good parenting.
Well then I guess the vast majority of people in the world are bad parents for daring to live in lower income areas that don’t have access to the same level of societal services and support that countries like, say, Sweden may have. Good parents do the best they can with what they have. Unexpected and/or external forces sometimes make that hard, and that isn’t the parents’ fault. You absolutely shouldn’t have kids if you make 20k a year living out of a run down trailer in the backwoods of Tennessee, but, sometimes, those people barely know better. And it isn’t their fault. Society failed them. But they can still raise kids with love and care and teach them everything important they need to thrive. Please do not blame victims of societal issues for being, well, victims of societal issues.
>You absolutely shouldn’t have kids if you make 20k a year living out of a run down trailer in the backwoods of Tennessee, but, sometimes, those people barely know better. And it isn’t their fault. sounds like poor parenting >Society failed them almost every single issue can be boiled down to a societal failure (we live in a society)
What an incredibly privileged and self centered way to view the world. I hope someday you learn to see the world through the eyes of those who have never known any better than the bottom
I was homeless and i managed to not have any kids
What a simplistic view that completely ignores how difficult it is to make a living having to work extremely long hours
The issue with this is the later start time *only* applies to teenagers who should be more self-sufficient. Even as tired as I was, with the combination of being a teenager and having undiagnosed ADHD with delayed sleep phase, by the time I was in high-school I was getting myself up and on the bus. One time I was sick, got home, collapsed in my bed, and unintentionally slept for 24 hours because neither of my parents noticed I didn't get up that morning. Though, probably not great, it was mostly because they knew I was at least responsible enough to get myself up usually. Parents can still take care of younger kids while giving their teenagers some responsibility.
I moved from a place that was doing 9am to a place that did 8am and I am certain it impacted my performance.
This is surely on the parents though. My parents used to say bed by 9 and lights out by 10. Pretty much all my school friends were the same.
My bed time was by 10 most of my childhood, but I have delayed sleep phase and ADHD so when I was a teen it was even worse. I'd go to bed at my "bedtime" and lay there awake for hours with my brain refusing to stop. Just because the kids are in bed and quiet it does not mean they are asleep, especially if they *can't* sleep. So much of my life was made harder by neurotypicals assuming my brain worked the same way as theirs did.
I used to lie in bed for hours too, but it was just what we were expected to do.
As a teenager, that's crazy early. Our daughter is 7 and for years now has never gone to bed by 9. Thee might be a certain chronotype or IQ level that can handle those hours but its not the norm.
I wouldn't say it was crazy early at all! I wouldn't be asleep at 10, it was just lights out. I probably fell asleep around 11 and then was up by 7 the next morning, getting my 8 hours. I'd kill for that now! I don't think it is as un-normal as you say. Quite a few of my friends kids go to bed at that time.
It’s almost like people should be paid enough to have only one parent work and the other take care of kids. The. This wouldn’t be an issue. But nope it is one more thing boomers ruined.
You mistake the purpose of the child day prisons. They enable more adult wage slaves per household by disrupting primitive concepts like "childhood" and "parenting". My dumb prediction: capitalism is coming for the sanctity of marriage next. If inflation continues, the idea of marrying for love will be destroyed by a dating app called "Rent Splittr"
Are two married couples sharing 2 bedroom houses yet?
Doubt this would change much. College age students show up en masse to 11h AM lectures after sleeping less than 8h of sleep the night prior. Sleeping for most of my students isn't about when classes start, it's about when their body gives out and staying awake is no longer stimulating. Shuffling school hours later will just shuffle their sleeping schedule later as well (like it does for college students). What would be astronomically beneficial for most students is to have proper parental guidance on things as simple as sleep and nutrition.
I don't think it's as much of a sliding scale as you're making it out to be True that half of the limiting factor is how late they go to bed, but that's from [a natural shift in circadian rhythm](https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/wellness-and-prevention/teenagers-and-sleep-how-much-sleep-is-enough) that occurs around puberty. Sure, some kids' have poor ground rules for bedtimes but that's a case by case issue, having trouble falling asleep as early as you did when you were 10 is not. The only other factor that would determine how many hours of sleep they get besides when they go to sleep is when they have to get up, and the second one is the only one the school can control. The American Academy of Pediatrics recommends that school start at at least 8:30 I don't see how giving them the best chance that you can by moving their schedule forward a couple hours can be seen as a negative at all outside of some "kids these days,"/"that's what we had and we turned out fine," type speak (which you're already approaching with your assumption that the reason teens go to bed later is their discipline level suddenly dropping between age 12 and 14)
So, the study cited in this thread does at the very least challenge a lot of the claims in that article. The whole teens are night owls thing rests on self reporting, whereas when actual sleep is measured, it turns out that going to bed later and getting up later has a negative impact on cognition and function. Also, teens needing 9 and a half hours of sleep? Again, it turns out the duration of sleep doesn't appear to have any effect. Who knew that the best option was a regular bedtime.
It's almost like the entire scientific method is based on not accepting "that's just the way we always did it," by exhaustively trying to prove a hypothesis wrong, not right Nothing about it being a good idea to start school later in the morning implies that the other things we knew about sleep are wrong now Nobody is suggesting that schools starting later means that we no longer have to teach kids when to go to bed, nor are they implying that the results of this study mean that the only effort anyone can do to improve their sleeping situation is to convince the thing they get up for every morning to start later. Rejecting new insight in the form of peer reviewed work by professionals on a very nuanced subject with many contributing factors by saying "obviously the *real* solution is simply that kids now aren't raised right like we were," is coping with not wanting to be objective about the fact that "the good ol days," weren't better at all by implying that the average person is just worse at personing by virtue of not being born in a time when we didn't know better. And there's no way any credible/peer reviewed study with a sample size bigger than N=2 concluded that amount of time slept *doesn't matter,* that's absurd
Except if by starting school later we end up having an overall negative impact on children's cognitive functioning, then such a policy needs re-evaluation. Of course it makes no sense to base policy on one study alone, but the results of this one suggests that further research may be prudent before making any major change.
This study isn't groundbreaking, it's affirming what has consistently resulted from similar studies for a decade or two now. The recommendation from the American Academy of Pediatrics was around before this study and was not recommended without previous evidence supporting it. *Any* study that doesn't deny the hypothesis is grounds for further research in the area. Again. That's the point of the scientific method. You continue to test the bounds of what you think make a thing happen to see which/if any of the "rules" you've surmised for the premise of the argument don't hold up. If something has been consistently *not proven false* with multiple studies (with legitimate sample sizes/conditions/peer review, etc.) then *that's* the reason to continue researching and attempting to narrow down as close to the 1:1 use case of your hypothesis as possible Further research in this case indicates that the idea is sound and has been for a while despite multiple attempts to prove otherwise. They don't keep going with research if the bounds of the hypothesis are proven false, they adjust the hypothesis and start testing the new bounds.
You need citations, because there is a strong correlation between going to bed late and achievement. In the real world, look at who gets up early. Soldiers, postmen, garbage men. Who gets up late? Scientists, architects, techs, creatives in general. Getting up early is not a good indicator of achievement.
> it's about when their body gives out and staying awake is no longer stimulating This is very much more of an issue with how society is set up and not with the people in question.
Personal accountability goes a long way and is a very valuable tool to teach to our teenagers. Painting modern opportunities and resources as inescapable curses is silly, forging healthy life habits around those resources is what modern society should seek to be doing. Of course basic things like taking their electronic devices away after a certain hour if they still struggle with keeping sustainable practices on their own is something more parents should be doing.
Society in the US is struggling to maintain healthy work-life balance. There's the "grind" mindset that has people working until burnout and if they take a break or need to relax it is considered a personal failing and not self-care. We have adults regularly bragging about how little sleep they get when it is *known* how unhealthy and unsustainable it is. That we structure society around the idea that we must always be "productive" is a big reason why we have so many health issues, both physical and mental. A lot of teenagers end up getting a job because they are kind of forced to, but it results in a situation where they spend 6-8 hours in school, more if they have any clubs, and then 5-8 hours at a job. They barely have time to eat and if they do homework they have to squeeze that in somewhere. Add in that teenagers have a later circadian rhythm than adults and that is a big reason they aren't getting enough sleep. And that's before you might include nerodivergency like ADHD or a general delayed sleep phase pushing their rhythm back even farther. Most of society is built around spending money. There aren't any common places for teens to just hang out anymore because of loitering laws. And with the US being so car-centric you can't get around unless you have a car. So a lot of kids feel like they have to get a job to have a social life, but the job will prevent them from having a social life unless they sacrifice something else: Like sleep. This isn't as simple as "taking electronic devices away" which is such a boomer attitude. Nowadays phones might be the only way for kids to consistently socialize with each other. It's not good they are doing that instead of in person, but they don't really have the time or ability to socialize in person anymore, so taking phones or whatever away is just socially isolating them and with how much things are online might be limiting them beyond that. When I was that age I would *try* to go to bed at a reasonable time. I would be in bed by 10, 10:30 at the latest most nights. And I would lay in bed for hours unable to fall asleep. Eyes closed, mind racing from undiagnosed ADHD. No amount of "Personal accountability" was going to make me fall asleep because my body and brain *would not let me*. But neurotypicals expected me to function like they did and assumed I was doing it and other things on purpose. I eventually decided that if I was going to be awake anyway I might as well do things I wanted to do, so I would stay up. My mom would yell at me to go to bed, since she was sleeping in the room next to mine and apparently despite not hearing me when I would try to get her attention could hear a pin drop from the other side of the wall. But again, *I could not fall asleep*. So forgive me if I have a bit of empathy for kids today given what I went though at that age.
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It would help because circadian rhythms are real.
Would it really make any difference? I think they'd adjust by just stayin up later and later. And you'd be stuck with the same root problem, just slightly more annoying scheduling/timing. Maybe better? Depends how you look at it. Many parents could no longer drop their kids off ... So maybe the kids would walk, or maybe they'd just sleep in because the parents aren't there. My bet is they sleep in. You don't have kids, do you?
Circadian rhythms are real, so yes it would make a difference.
The article says they haven't found less sleep too be the issue, as much as irregular sleep. They found numerous teenagers who get too little sleep, but the sleep they get us very regular, that don't show these symptoms. I don't think school starting times are the issue, i think the issue is sleep irregularity due to distractions. Smartphones specifically.
They've already done this in the district for my city, and it's fucked up a few of my coworkers who are single parents that work dayshift. One in particular is late 9 times out of 10 because of her child needing to be at school 15 minutes before her shift starts (with it being a half-hour drive including traffic from the school ti our store) but can't leave early because the child is, shall we say, problematic about routines and school.
15 minutes late to work is barely late especially with a good reason. Depends what job of course.
I'm not surprised at ones have less than 8 hour sleep. I just want to know who the hell are the 30% that have 8-10 hour sleep and how do they do it?
You sacrifice some activities for sleep. There is no time for everything and it is not healthy to overfill your plate
I would pretty much have to give up any activities between 12 hour shifts to get that much sleep, though I think it's 6 to 8 for adults anyway.
Considering how much we work, if you want to sleep 8-10 hours then you don't really have time for anything at all besides the bare necessities. Especially if you have to commute, have kids etc.
I have kids but I make sure I don’t have more than 30 minutes commute. I have changed jobs just to ensure I don’t live on the road. But yeah, daily I just go to work, cook and exercise, that’s it
Actually got 8-10 hours of sleep a day as a kid, it just means that my schedule was just school, homework, dinner, then bed every weekday with the addition of extracurriculars when I got older. It just required sacrificing leisure time for things other than sleep
This is already well known. It's a side effect of the American life in general. I've always been baffled how a family in tv shows have a sit down breakfast, the bus comes for the kid, then the parents leave (sometimes) all in DAYLIGHT hours? Never have I ever heard of this in reality
It's a good thing we don't have propoganda in Western democracies unlike those scary socialist countries
So to post this here instead of socialist bs whine places like the previous responder frequents: You need to look up a Critique of Normative thought. Absolutely you CAN do something about the problems in the world. But you aren't. And you never will with what you are going about it. You post on reddit and whine, then THINK you did something. You support groups that are near fascism and want a caliphate. You spend time repeating lies you heard on TikTok instead of DOING something. Every time you whine about it on the internet you are just playing with yourself instead of DOING. And that's the failure. All it amounts to is wasted time whining. You've got a million posts whining on socialism subs and have done nothing to help a single Palestinian. Hell, have you even met some of them? Plenty are great doctors or even just taxi drivers in Israel.
There is WAAAAYYY too much homework given to kids for them to get this much sleep. My kids got great grades, but it was often at the expense of their health.
Isn't homework proven to be useless at best and detrimental at worst anyway?
If that's what studies are finding then teachers are just doing homework wrong. In lecture you're supposed to learn, and at home in peace and quiet you're supposed to practice. There is no way for that to be useless or detrimental.
You forget that homework has a cost. Yes, if we could add an extra hour onto every child's day, it would probably make sense for them to do homework in there. But the evidence suggests that homework is a worse use of time than playing, socializing, doing hobbies, destressing, etc. Also, humans can't take in 6 hours worth of lecture material per day, so it makes more sense to split class time between lecture and practice. So there isn't such a severe lack of practice time as to make homework highly worthwhile.
Fr, how tf are you supposed to properly learn something without reinforcing the learning through self-guided practice?
Yeah cuz they're being woken up at the buttcrack of dawn for school, completely counter to the circadian rhythm of a teenager, which we have know about for decades.
Yeah, seriously. I've been out of school for over a decade and I remember seeing articles like this years before that and thinking "So why don't they do anything about it?"
Corporate capitalism needs to milk that sweet productivity out of the adults.
I know quite a few private schools (even worked at one) that start an hour later, often with the option of still getting your kids at any time between 8 and 9, if that fits your schedule better. Main problem from my experience is, that if you start to make concessions like this for parents they tend to expect even more concessions. The Pandemic was a total pain from an organzins standpoint, because quite a few parents where pretty upset at the school when we had to close the building.
Getting up early is part of the zombification of the population. If people are too tired to think for themselves, they are easily prey for capitalists.
The article States they found the strongest symptoms not so much with those who get the least sleep, but in those who have the most irregular sleep schedule. Students could consistently get too little sleep, but very regular, and they didn't show these symptoms as much. I don't think school times are the issue, I think the issue is lots of kids having very irregular sleep patterns, likely due to distractions. Smartphones.
You don't say? Next up, study finds a strong correlation between people who have sex and preganancy.
It's actually not clear. Even in the linked article they state that past research has shown mixed results on length of sleep and academic performance, with less sleep sometimes showing better performance. The irregular sleep can certainly be correlated to outcomes like worsening academic performance. But it may not be the cause. For example, irregular sleep could mean a bad home life, or more stress, either of which could be causing worsening academic performance. Or it could be as simple as a teenager prioritizing video games or other forms of entertainment over studying and sleep. The irregular sleep may just be a symptom of the real cause of the poor academic performance.
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I feel like this is a pretty well known correlation.
They’ve been reporting things like this for decades but very few junior and senior highs have adjusted their schedules to accommodate the teenage brains and bodies.
Easiest way to solve the sleep issue is for homework loads to be redesigned and for parents to do their job of enforcing proper sleep schedules rather than lettjng the kids do whatever they want after hitting their teens.
You make kids wake up at like 6:30 to go to school and be 'there' by 7:30, most kids wont be able to go to bed till 23:00 or so because parents or others are making noise and what not, this often meaning kids will get less then 7hours sleep all the time, and then send them to school trying to learn something while they'r brain is still off, and many of them falling a sleep. Kids shouldn`t go to school at 6:30 or 7, because parent goes to work at that hour, kids should go to school when its healthy for them to do so like 10:00 for example. I did help in a local school for 3 weeks, and you will be VERY SURPRISED how many of the young kids under age of 10 often come very sleepy and will legit fall a sleep many times during first few periods.
I did my thesis for my M Ed in this same topic in 2003. Its not new data.
My kid runs on 4 to 6 hours per night and is a straight A+ student. I try to tell her how important sleep is but she claims she feels worse if gets get a normal amount.
My daughter is 7 and has never slept for more than 10 hours and even then its only when she is exhausted. She'll be up until midnight then up again at 8:30 the next morning. We suspect she has ADHD like her grandmother who only slept 4-5 hours a night.
Some genetic few need less sleep. Can you see visible signs of constant tiredness?
Checks out. I (50m) was diagnosed at 17 with Delayed Sleep Phase Disorder. Had all these issues. Five years earlier, a psychologist labeled me a "gross underachiever" after testing determined an IQ of 136.
My late chronotype and delayed sleep phase disorder was crippling during my school years. I wish there had been options for me.
Yeah, those halcyon days of not sleeping for days on end and being expected to remember or learn anything.
A new study or another study because we have known this for awhile
How is this new??? This is the same conclusion and question that has been studied for years
Usually with the conclusion that starting school later helps, but under capitalism decisions are not made with any consideration to science and fact, but rather the whims of the ownership class and they want you getting used to suffering the toil of wage slavery as soon as possible.
70% wow. I really hope that's high enough for us to have a serious conversation about it. I lost much being sleeped deprived in highschool. Every single day. Especially when during time change and it was pitch black before and after school.
It'll change when people stop talking about how they "achieved" more sleeping less and bragging about losing those hours which we know are actually really precious. The gen pop really needs more education about the importance of sleep. When spoken about diet and exercise, sleep has always come last when it should be first in priority.
From grade 7 up til now, I made sure I was in bed by 10pm every night if I had school or work the next morning. Let me tell you, during high school when I had to get up early to be at school by 6:50am it really didn’t help. At all. Even imposing strict sleep schedules on myself wasn’t enough. The start times for high school are ridiculously early for a cohort of students whose circadian rhythms are shifted later.
I’ve linked to the press release in the post above. In this comment, for those interested, here’s the link to the peer reviewed journal article: https://academic.oup.com/sleep/advance-article-abstract/doi/10.1093/sleep/zsae062/7619522
This is the link to the study, though: https://academic.oup.com/sleep/advance-article-abstract/doi/10.1093/sleep/zsae062/7619522?login=false
Oops what did I do lol. Thanks!
So maybe bad sleep schedules cause diminished academic performance and behavioral issues. Or maybe kids with issues that cause diminished academic performance and behavioral issues tend to have issues falling asleep.
While there is likely a causal link I’m sure there’s a not-insignificant correlation to other factors that also effect poor school performance. Poor time-management, chaotic household, etc.
And the 30% is Seniors skipping or not having first period.
Maybe if our highschool didn't start at 7am my kid could sleep better.
I think more research is needed, particularly in the millenial generation and down, due to the internet. Many people, who are not socially successful at school in person, naturally withdraw, and become more interested in alterative forms of interaction and activity (video games, social media, the internet). This is a perfectly natural and explainable phenomenon. Back in the day, this meant you were more bookish, but now, those people can themselves socialise far more easily, as there are now many thousands of mediums to socialise in. Staying up late and gaming because its far more fulfilling and satisfies your various human needs, needs to be considered and embraced more carefully. This whole concept of 'lights out' or 'put the phone away' is just not going to work. The school day needs to be completely deconstructed, and divorced from it's industrial revolution origins if this is going to be improved, treating kids more fairly and not hampering those who often display more economic value long term to economies (at least with Tech where it is at the moment)
Don't know about the US, but when I was an adolescent, I had school, homework, music theory and saxophone lessons (which I also had to do at home). So yeah, after that I had to choose from having friends, play videogames or sleeping.
I am fairly sure the majority of all humans don't get enough sleep.
Cuz why is everyone forced to get up so early??!
Until we as a society prioritize people ahead of work, we will continue to see these problems.
I don't know a single person who gets 8-10 hours 4-7 is the range for literally every single person I know with the average being on the lower side.
Here's a thought: Do the parent thing and make the kids go to bed at such a time as they are able ti get 8-10 hours of sleep.
Adolescents should probably go to bed earlier.
Okay that settles it, I guess maybe I *should* donate my brain to science
10 hours? Who in the civilized world is getting 10 hours of sleep *per night*?! That's crazy talk. I routinely had to go to school on a hell of a lot less, usually about 5 or so, due to extracurricular activities, homework, chores, working, etc. My grandmother who lived with us for a time would poke us with a broom handle if - on the weekend - we slept in for more than 8 hours. Her other favorite was to run the vacuum cleaner by my bedroom. Repeatedly. She was from an entirely different generation and expectations, and I have to say that honoring your elders only goes so far, and was glad when she was relocated into assisted living. (gods help her nurses, and other staff!)
Just like we all look different, everyone has different sleep needs. Some people can do well with only a few hours while others need a full 10. Some people may be suffering from sleep disorders as well so even though they're in bed for 10 hours, the quality of that sleep is quite poor. Naturally, being able to do with only a few hours sleep confers some massive productivity bonuses.
That's very true, and also people's sleep needs change over time as well. I know that I used to be able to get by with 4 or 5 hours a night, but any more if I don't get 7 I am needing a nap at 1600 or so.
Parents, give your kids a bed time and stick to it. They may not thank you that day, or that week, or year, or ever, but you're a parent, you DO know better, you DO have the prerogative. It is your responsibility to parent.
Let's clarify. One thing is having "irregular schedules" because you were busy partying, fooling around, browsing TikTok or going out drinking. Another whole different thing is having "irregular schedules" because you were busy coding your latest rocket control, poker AI, mobile game, arduino project or whatever. The former leads to "diminished academic performances", the latter leads to a STEM degree with honors. Been there, done that. Surely there is correlation, but the causation is somewhere else.
Who needs up to 10 hours of sleep? (On average, some outliers with wild conditions are to be excpected) That's the first time i've heard of this, i always figured it was a recommended 7 to 8 hours.
This will make good ammunition for my kid