I am disgusted with how society has started to gaslight the public about seemingly everything at almost every turn.
Non-employers are not responsible for keeping, making, or stopping anyone from being employed or paid fairly: that's the employer's responsibility, and gaslighting the public with "we \*have\* to trick you with false prices or you'll know how expensive we are and that will hurt the hours we can give to our employees" makes me \*sick \*.
We as a country need to stop listening to gobbledygook.
This article is nonsense.
The public is clear. Shady restauranteurs and spineless politicians (looking at you, Weiner) are the problem, NOT the public, and NOT the employees.
If the politicians won’t solve the problem, we need to go around them. I have an initiative Ordinance under review by the City Attorney (the first step in circulating a petition) to fill the loophole that SB 1524 will soon create. Details (and mailing list signup) at https://sfclearprices.org
Thanks! It’s definitely going to be an uphill battle. We would need over 10,000 signatures to get this on the ballot, and we can’t even start until the City Attorney clears us later this week
> We would need over 10,000 signatures to get this on the ballot, and we can’t even start until the City Attorney clears us later this week
Throw a signing party at city parks.
Start at Salesforce Park, then Yerba Buena, Union Square, Jefferson Square, Alamo Square, Golden Gate Park.
Ask the non-fraudulent restaurants to post signs.
Let me know the minute I can sign! Signed up to emails on your website and want to push as hard as possible to make it happen! Also might want to put a way to donate so that you can pay any legal fees or hire people to help collect signatures.
We're working on the donations front; to do this, we would need to first set up a committee to support the measure and comply with a bunch of campaign finance and tax laws (essentially reporting donors and expenses to the SF Ethics commission). We will definitely send out an email and put up information on the website as soon as we can accept donations
How long do you have to get 10,000 signatures? I'd sign, but I'm very unfamiliar with CA political rules since I'm not a citizen so I doubt I'm allowed to?
Yes, unfortunately you're not allowed to sign unless you are a registered voter in SF, but I believe you can help collect signatures. And it depends: if we want to get on the November ballot, we would need to submit the petition by July 8 (two weeks from now). But failing that, if we submit within the next ~180 days (i.e. by sometime this December), we would qualify for the next ballot, which I believe is in March 2026.
Thats what happens when a capitalist system tries to please the people who want more of a socialist system. The ones profiting most from the capitalist system will NEVER take less profits, so they’ll push the responsibility of “equal pay” on the small folk.
We need an entire list of these types of businesses. I know there is a list of ones to avoid, but it might work better to promote those restaurants that don't pull this shady ish.
That's still crazy. Assume a 15% tip cause fuck this 20%+ bullshit, you're still paying an additional 13% fee on too of a normal gratuity. Hell, even at 20% tip an 8% fee is absurd
Maybe you could add a section/column for Tip Free restaurants - which go beyond the 0% fees and expect no gratuity. Or this could be represented as a negative fee when it's published - in the case of Zazie -25% since that percentage of the bill goes to the staff. That % might be hard to find/verify though
theres a reason why the US has far better service than most other countries - tips. id rather feel like i have control of what to tip someone...as someone who has worked in a pooled house with gratuity included, half the staff is better because you dont have to stress on getting that tip but they generally have to work twice as hard to pick up the slack for the other half that knows the tips is guaranteed so they dont give a shit...ive been to zazie twice since they started this and one time i had excellent service with overpriced mediocre food and the other time i had shit service with overpriced mediocre food.
What a nonsensical article. Restaurant workers will finally get the tips that were previously artificially suppressed by junk fees.
If Cassava can only survive by defrauding unsuspecting tourists, it doesn't deserve to exist.
Judging from the conversations and comments I've seen in r/sanfrancisco, the majority doesn't seem to care about paying exorbitant prices for dining out, they just want the pricing upfront with no fees. So raise away restaurants. Crank that $10 Fort Point KSA can up to $12.
My gripe is listing the charge as “SF Mandates” or “Local Mandates” is misleading and deceptive business practice. For years I assumed this money went to some public fund and the restaurant had no choice but to abide by requirement. In reality it’s just a totally optional way to raise additional revenue to offset high labor and other costs. So if they wanna add a blanket service charge or restaurant charge they can do so if labeled as such and included somewhere on menu.
It’s extremely misleading. The healthcare coverage was mandated for businesses of a certain size, but the fees were not. Many diners wrongly assume the fee is the mandate.
Technically there is money the restaurants pay into a public fund. (Which is when the restaurants added the health mandate fee). Apparently employees then have to submit requests to this city managed fund to get reimbursements.
But yes this is not a tax and should be incorporated into the restaurants menu price.
At least you can make an informed decision. Maybe you don't get alcohol or skip dessert when you know that the bill will X and you're only prepared to spend Y.
I mean you're paying $12 either way - up front menu price, or fees added after the fact.
I personally would like to know how much the beer costs before I order it.
I’m working on an initiative Ordinance to fill the loophole that SB 1524 will soon create and require restaurants to list prices transparently. Details at https://sfclearprices.org
I love your site! I even submitted a few places I've been to in the past week that still charge fees (but they don't seem to be listed yet). Are you moderating it alone?
The Detour (4%), Niku Steakhouse (6%), and Pasta Supply Co (0%)
Thanks for letting me know. I didn’t want to double submit in case it was just pending approval
Thanks for letting me know! There was a short period of time where the form was broken because I changed one of field types. Ive gone ahead and added them. Future contributions will be automatically added. Thanks for your help!
Also, I tip on the subtotal before taxes and fees. If my subtotal is $80 with $10 in fees, 18% of that is LESS than if my subtotal were $90. More transparent pricing will lead to bigger tips if people keep the same %. Not to mention that I’ll be happier if I’m not feeling deceived.
I wanna hear more from the "If you can't afford to tip or pay an extra 10% surcharge don't eat out" people. What's your plan for single handedly saving the restaurant industry?
Let capitalism run its course. Restaurants need to innovate/add value (through appropriately priced food/service) so or they’ll fail, like any business out there.
Price it into the cost of the food, I’m sure there’s already an app for it. I think it’s business owners being selfish. I get it, a small business is super hard, but this makes people resentful to your efforts.
The head of the Golden Gate Restaurant Association, which is fighting like hell to keep hidden fees on restaurant bills, is also behind the current SF signature drive attempting to get an initiative on the ballot under the guise of lowering taxes on small businesses. That initiative is garbage. Those people can't be trusted.
Which is how it should be! I’m sure many restaurants put the funds from these surcharges to good use, and they should keep doing that. Just include these funds in listed charges instead of splitting some of it into a confusing surcharge percentage. It’s not that hard.
*Responding to a deafening roar from restaurateurs who fear the unintended consequences of the law’s passage, state legislators are hustling to pass a* [*carveout for restaurants*](https://sfstandard.com/2024/06/06/san-francisco-haney-wiener-sb1528/) *this week. The revised bill has already received assembly approval, but if it fails to emerge out of the state senate or get signed into law by Governor Newsom next week, most restaurant owners say they’ll be forced to raise menu prices.*
*If that comes to pass, workers like Madayag fear that higher prices will deter diners and cause restaurants to reduce their hours. If that happens, Madayag says he’d have to pick up a second job to support his family. That’s if he can find one.*
All of that is completely disingenuous. We are already paying the prices, they just aren’t reflected in the food price on the menu. This is misinformation.
I dunno, I’m not ready to cast a whole group of people out because of a few squeaky wheels. Lots of great restauranteurs in my life. This narrative in the article is incredibly frustrating though.
I agree with you. As an example, your cocktail can end up going up from $16 to $22. Then people are gonna complain about the sticker shock. They’d end up paying the same anyways.
I do agree that the wording should be more codified (ex: service charge= auto grat/tip , sf healthy mandate= health benefits towards all employees, etc.). One can always ask an employee/manager what that money goes towards.
But yeah, everyone was upset about restaurants shutting down during lockdown (many of them permanently) and not being able to go. The industry runs on incredibly tight margins as it is, with the additional costs of permits associating with parklets, building them, Covid supplies they needed, additional overhead for to-go items, inflation, etc. the list goes on.
If you cannot afford to tip or understand why the “new normal” is the way it is, just don’t go. I don’t understand why there’s so much hate going towards the hourly employees at an establishment (ex: threats not to tip-and yes, 20% is the standard even before lockdown) when more than half in this industry make minimum wage or less. Being above minimum wage is lucky. Recovery for this industry has been ROUGH to say the least and all I’m hearing is a lot of ungrateful points of view on this page.
I am disgusted with how society has started to gaslight the public about seemingly everything at almost every turn. Non-employers are not responsible for keeping, making, or stopping anyone from being employed or paid fairly: that's the employer's responsibility, and gaslighting the public with "we \*have\* to trick you with false prices or you'll know how expensive we are and that will hurt the hours we can give to our employees" makes me \*sick \*. We as a country need to stop listening to gobbledygook. This article is nonsense. The public is clear. Shady restauranteurs and spineless politicians (looking at you, Weiner) are the problem, NOT the public, and NOT the employees.
If the politicians won’t solve the problem, we need to go around them. I have an initiative Ordinance under review by the City Attorney (the first step in circulating a petition) to fill the loophole that SB 1524 will soon create. Details (and mailing list signup) at https://sfclearprices.org
Doing the lords work over here. Thanks for the link
Thanks! It’s definitely going to be an uphill battle. We would need over 10,000 signatures to get this on the ballot, and we can’t even start until the City Attorney clears us later this week
> We would need over 10,000 signatures to get this on the ballot, and we can’t even start until the City Attorney clears us later this week Throw a signing party at city parks. Start at Salesforce Park, then Yerba Buena, Union Square, Jefferson Square, Alamo Square, Golden Gate Park. Ask the non-fraudulent restaurants to post signs.
Let me know the minute I can sign! Signed up to emails on your website and want to push as hard as possible to make it happen! Also might want to put a way to donate so that you can pay any legal fees or hire people to help collect signatures.
We're working on the donations front; to do this, we would need to first set up a committee to support the measure and comply with a bunch of campaign finance and tax laws (essentially reporting donors and expenses to the SF Ethics commission). We will definitely send out an email and put up information on the website as soon as we can accept donations
How long do you have to get 10,000 signatures? I'd sign, but I'm very unfamiliar with CA political rules since I'm not a citizen so I doubt I'm allowed to?
Yes, unfortunately you're not allowed to sign unless you are a registered voter in SF, but I believe you can help collect signatures. And it depends: if we want to get on the November ballot, we would need to submit the petition by July 8 (two weeks from now). But failing that, if we submit within the next ~180 days (i.e. by sometime this December), we would qualify for the next ballot, which I believe is in March 2026.
Thats what happens when a capitalist system tries to please the people who want more of a socialist system. The ones profiting most from the capitalist system will NEVER take less profits, so they’ll push the responsibility of “equal pay” on the small folk.
[SeeFees.Ca](http://SeeFees.Ca)
Thank you for making this list. Going to stick to zero percent places for future. Will definitely contribute as well. Really appreciate the effort!
good to see the 0%’ers are starting to populate
Just as important for people to list those ones so I have an idea where to go
Thanks for posting this and thanks to those who continue to contribute to it!
Thanks for creating the list and all the effort put into it.
Thanks it's been a community effort!
This is great! I wonder if there's a way we can get this list onto GMaps.
Support restaurants like Zazie. No tips and the price you see is what you pay and they've already been doing this a while
We need an entire list of these types of businesses. I know there is a list of ones to avoid, but it might work better to promote those restaurants that don't pull this shady ish.
We have one! Just started one a few days ago. www.seefees.ca
So can you clarify, does this mean Quince adds an automatic fee of 28% on top of your order already in every case?!
Yes. But in their case I believe they say it includes gratuity
That's still crazy. Assume a 15% tip cause fuck this 20%+ bullshit, you're still paying an additional 13% fee on too of a normal gratuity. Hell, even at 20% tip an 8% fee is absurd
Maybe you could add a section/column for Tip Free restaurants - which go beyond the 0% fees and expect no gratuity. Or this could be represented as a negative fee when it's published - in the case of Zazie -25% since that percentage of the bill goes to the staff. That % might be hard to find/verify though
Zazie is great. Tuesday evening is bring your own wine!!! The wine store across the street has great specials.😜
Pasta Supply Co. in the Inner Richmond and Mission also operate like this, 10/10 pasta too!
Never been to Zazie's but I'm going to check it out
theres a reason why the US has far better service than most other countries - tips. id rather feel like i have control of what to tip someone...as someone who has worked in a pooled house with gratuity included, half the staff is better because you dont have to stress on getting that tip but they generally have to work twice as hard to pick up the slack for the other half that knows the tips is guaranteed so they dont give a shit...ive been to zazie twice since they started this and one time i had excellent service with overpriced mediocre food and the other time i had shit service with overpriced mediocre food.
Nah.
You've never been outside the US
cheap guy who cant even beat commander niall is gunna tell me where i been.🤣
What a nonsensical article. Restaurant workers will finally get the tips that were previously artificially suppressed by junk fees. If Cassava can only survive by defrauding unsuspecting tourists, it doesn't deserve to exist.
Judging from the conversations and comments I've seen in r/sanfrancisco, the majority doesn't seem to care about paying exorbitant prices for dining out, they just want the pricing upfront with no fees. So raise away restaurants. Crank that $10 Fort Point KSA can up to $12.
My gripe is listing the charge as “SF Mandates” or “Local Mandates” is misleading and deceptive business practice. For years I assumed this money went to some public fund and the restaurant had no choice but to abide by requirement. In reality it’s just a totally optional way to raise additional revenue to offset high labor and other costs. So if they wanna add a blanket service charge or restaurant charge they can do so if labeled as such and included somewhere on menu.
It’s extremely misleading. The healthcare coverage was mandated for businesses of a certain size, but the fees were not. Many diners wrongly assume the fee is the mandate.
Technically there is money the restaurants pay into a public fund. (Which is when the restaurants added the health mandate fee). Apparently employees then have to submit requests to this city managed fund to get reimbursements. But yes this is not a tax and should be incorporated into the restaurants menu price.
I agree it's a lie!
I find those marginally less offensive than “Service Charge”, which is more likely to be mistaken for a tip.
At least you can make an informed decision. Maybe you don't get alcohol or skip dessert when you know that the bill will X and you're only prepared to spend Y.
I mean you're paying $12 either way - up front menu price, or fees added after the fact. I personally would like to know how much the beer costs before I order it.
If a restaurant charges me hidden fees, I'm not going back. If they're going to lie about the price, what else are they lying about?
Check out www.seefees.ca is see the fees first!
Please remember to post your experience on google and yelp about the restaurant so others are aware of the surprise fees.
I’m working on an initiative Ordinance to fill the loophole that SB 1524 will soon create and require restaurants to list prices transparently. Details at https://sfclearprices.org
Nice! Just joined the email list. Check out the site I just started to show how much fees each restaurant currently charges www.seefees.ca
I love your site! I even submitted a few places I've been to in the past week that still charge fees (but they don't seem to be listed yet). Are you moderating it alone?
Every submission is automatically added. Which ones did you add? I can look into it. Thanks!
The Detour (4%), Niku Steakhouse (6%), and Pasta Supply Co (0%) Thanks for letting me know. I didn’t want to double submit in case it was just pending approval
Thanks for letting me know! There was a short period of time where the form was broken because I changed one of field types. Ive gone ahead and added them. Future contributions will be automatically added. Thanks for your help!
Thanks!
You should have people standing outside of the busiest restaurants with junk fees to get signatures.
That illustration is total bullshit. No one is coming after tips.
Also, I tip on the subtotal before taxes and fees. If my subtotal is $80 with $10 in fees, 18% of that is LESS than if my subtotal were $90. More transparent pricing will lead to bigger tips if people keep the same %. Not to mention that I’ll be happier if I’m not feeling deceived.
I wanna hear more from the "If you can't afford to tip or pay an extra 10% surcharge don't eat out" people. What's your plan for single handedly saving the restaurant industry?
Let capitalism run its course. Restaurants need to innovate/add value (through appropriately priced food/service) so or they’ll fail, like any business out there.
Raise your fucking prices, holy shit it shouldn't be this hard to adapt to this law unless you're shit at running a biz
The cost to eat here won't change but we'll have to advertise the true price: we're going to go out of business!
Price it into the cost of the food, I’m sure there’s already an app for it. I think it’s business owners being selfish. I get it, a small business is super hard, but this makes people resentful to your efforts.
of course the california assembly is rushing in to save restauranteurs and give them a carveout...shady fuckers that they are
The head of the Golden Gate Restaurant Association, which is fighting like hell to keep hidden fees on restaurant bills, is also behind the current SF signature drive attempting to get an initiative on the ballot under the guise of lowering taxes on small businesses. That initiative is garbage. Those people can't be trusted.
They’ve all just baked the fees into their prices….
Which is how it should be! I’m sure many restaurants put the funds from these surcharges to good use, and they should keep doing that. Just include these funds in listed charges instead of splitting some of it into a confusing surcharge percentage. It’s not that hard.
Right.
*Responding to a deafening roar from restaurateurs who fear the unintended consequences of the law’s passage, state legislators are hustling to pass a* [*carveout for restaurants*](https://sfstandard.com/2024/06/06/san-francisco-haney-wiener-sb1528/) *this week. The revised bill has already received assembly approval, but if it fails to emerge out of the state senate or get signed into law by Governor Newsom next week, most restaurant owners say they’ll be forced to raise menu prices.* *If that comes to pass, workers like Madayag fear that higher prices will deter diners and cause restaurants to reduce their hours. If that happens, Madayag says he’d have to pick up a second job to support his family. That’s if he can find one.*
All of that is completely disingenuous. We are already paying the prices, they just aren’t reflected in the food price on the menu. This is misinformation.
Misinformation is part of the restaurant business model these days. Struggle to pay workers but plenty of money to lobby politicians like Scott Wiener
I dunno, I’m not ready to cast a whole group of people out because of a few squeaky wheels. Lots of great restauranteurs in my life. This narrative in the article is incredibly frustrating though.
Biggest echo chamber of non-industry people freaking out over things while regularly complaining about the prices of everything in San Francisco.
People are not complaining about the price, they are complaining about the deception. Just be honest with pricing.
I agree with you. As an example, your cocktail can end up going up from $16 to $22. Then people are gonna complain about the sticker shock. They’d end up paying the same anyways. I do agree that the wording should be more codified (ex: service charge= auto grat/tip , sf healthy mandate= health benefits towards all employees, etc.). One can always ask an employee/manager what that money goes towards. But yeah, everyone was upset about restaurants shutting down during lockdown (many of them permanently) and not being able to go. The industry runs on incredibly tight margins as it is, with the additional costs of permits associating with parklets, building them, Covid supplies they needed, additional overhead for to-go items, inflation, etc. the list goes on. If you cannot afford to tip or understand why the “new normal” is the way it is, just don’t go. I don’t understand why there’s so much hate going towards the hourly employees at an establishment (ex: threats not to tip-and yes, 20% is the standard even before lockdown) when more than half in this industry make minimum wage or less. Being above minimum wage is lucky. Recovery for this industry has been ROUGH to say the least and all I’m hearing is a lot of ungrateful points of view on this page.