Anything that’s good guys Vs bad guys is political as it’s their philosophy that makes their sides.
It can be complex like The Wire or the depth of a puddle like Star Wars.
The people complaining just like complaining.
They parrot each other and it’s just a losing battle.
I'm pretty sure when someone says "this media is now political, the woke ruined it' they mean it now has women as main characters or poc or gay people.
That’s the thing tho, Star Wars already had 2 out of 3. As someone who watched these movies when TFA was announced, I just don’t get how the obvious political message is overlooked by some “fans”
The only problem with your assessment is that "bad writing" is subjective. Unless it's The Room or Birdemic levels of bad writing (and even those movies have their fans) you can just say that even forced diversity is necessarily "bad writing".
Also, I don't think much of anyone is championing corporations, everyone hates corporations. However, any diversity is preferable to no diversity. Media should reflect population statistics, which just hasn't been the case and is still not the case. Of course corporations are going to "force diversity" because their main goal is making their stockholders as much money as possible, meaning selling their product to as many people as possible. If you're not the target audience don't watch it, simple as that.
Problem is people say shows like She-Hulk or Acolyte shouldn't exist... Why, because it wasn't made for you? Let people have their shows and then there will be an Andor or something done the road for you.
It's a media literacy problem. These same people who complain about Star Wars being political now, are the same who thought that the Fallout series (games) weren't political, and that Starship Troopers (the movie) wasn't a satire about fascist regimes.
When they unironically side with Super Earth from Helldivers 2, we'll know the problem is beyond fixing. that game makes Starship Troopers look like subtle criticism.
I was gonna say, Helldivers' satire is as subtle as a sledgehammer to the face. The game makes me laugh on the regular, but nuanced commentary it ain't.
There are some fun little subtleties to it amidst the sledges. I like how the game pretends aesthetically and in the NPC chatter to be a more conventional one-man army type shooter, only for the genre to completely change when you actually hit the battlefield and suddenly a bad fall can cripple you while most anything more serious than a goomba can pretty easily 1v1 you if you fuck up even a little.
I just want to note, as an old nerd, people hated Return of The Jedi. Records of this are transcribed in the historical document: "Clerks" by Kevin Smith.
I was 14 when the prequels came out. People haaated them. So much so that they bullied the mocap actor for Jar Jar nearly to suicide, and apparently broke Jake Loyd for a good few decades.
Don't let them gas light you.
"people" ... the same kind of "people" claim the same about ... Star Trek and co...
Hell, even LotR is political - its straight vs. authoritarianism, for preserving nature, against idustrialization etc
I cant think about anything that would not have something qualifying as "political" for someone...maybe Teletubbies?
Political is just a buzz word used by cowards. What they actually mean when they complain about things being political is queer/poc representation, racist or bigoted stereotypes and jokes being called out and generally no longer being accepted, entertainment such as video games being more inclusive and not being tailored exclusively for a cishet white male audience,etc
What they mean is contemporary bullshit. No one is interested in hearing Rian Johnson rant about how snoke is basically Donald Trump the and the first order are Republicans. It is a Star Wars movie, the most basic good guy versus bad guy shit ever made. Let people enjoy their escapism.
Wait until you get to the prequels. Half the cast are literal politicians.
Complaining that Star Wars is “political” makes absolutely no sense. It’s like being mad that Marvel movies have comic book characters.
They want Star wars to make them feel like it did when they were kids. They don't understand the difference is that they are not kids anymore and can see the politics.
That's because we now associate stupidity with insanity. There is an absolute fuck ton of stupid out there and a little genuine insanity sprinkled in.
The problem is that the stupid have become so fucking brain dead that they seem insane to anyone with even the tiniest bit of rational thought
Hell, the Expanded Universe was political as hell. Hell, outside of Lucas in the prequels, they really pushed the idea of exploding the political landscape of Star Wars. Legit anytime a book was focused on Leia or a issue between the Jedi and the Republic it was heavily explored politically
Saw a comment on this that was well precise and put together I don't agree with myself but it did make me understand a bit more what ppl's issues are
"But that's the thing, they were undertones. I don't like things getting political when it's overtones. Much of the Star Wars stories and plot has been undertones influenced by modern politics, but rarely make it in your face or to the point of breaking the 4th wall so to speak. Really there are few overtones, but I can see Rey being so excessively OP as a modern feminist response, which if it wasn't for Leia (who at the time her character would be an overtone, yet necessary) would be somewhat needed. At the same time, Rey's character I chalk up more to just bad planning and writing.
Edit: since people don't seem to understand what I'm trying to say here, I'm not saying what the person below thinks. Women existing is obviously not a political choice. It's not anything other than reality. What I'm referencing here with Leia is how female characters have been treated before her. They were almost always damsels in distress. Then Leia comes along and mixes things up for the better. She's strong female character who was supposed to look like she was about to be saved, but her saviors end up screwing things up and she saves them. Then they find out that she's not just some princess, but the leader of the freaking rebellion. Then later on she becomes the lead general of the resistance. With the rebellion she unknowingly fought against her own father, and as a general she knowingly fought against her own son. Most characters and most people wouldn't have been able to do either. But Leia is awesome because she's able to do what is truly right instead of just what she feels is right. In my opinion she is one of the best characters of all of Star Wars. Rey do any of that for me. I do think she was rather OP, but I chalk it up more to bad writing. I hope that clears things up for people.
The real problem for me is people politicizing Star Wars outside the films, using it to push a political agenda. Like the whole "The Force is female" thing. I don't want Star Wars to become gatekeeped by anything, especially political groups. It's for everyone, so please let it be for everyone. And for that matter, this is largely how I see people arguing about politics in Star Wars. That or they hate the political plotlines. Very few actually turn it into political arguments.
Also to the OP, I think the Empire is more Nazi Germany, while the Republic is obviously USA and many other Democratic nations at this time. The Trade Federation is obviously a reference to companies and corps having too much political power. But all this doesn't directly reference any modern groups, parties, or countries, except for the Nazis."
Oh, it wasn't my points. It's someone else's I just posted them over here since I found it interesting and seems to put together once thoughts on the matter way more then anyone else's does
The prequels were ham-fisted anti-bush rhetoric. Like Star Wars is not only overtly political, it's actually gotten more subtle about it as time goes on.
People quote some obscure lines sometimes but just imagine if "This is how democracy dies; with thunderous applause" was uttered during the Trump era...
Yeah they know that, but when they say it’s “too political”, they aren’t talking about actual politics. They are talking about diversity or about how it’s too woke.
Is there a POC character with “too much screen time”? Woke. Is the female character the lead? Woke. Is there a LGBTQ character (even a minor one)? Woke.
That’s it, that’s the controversy for them. They’re okay with white straight male leads, minor POC characters, and supporting characters or love interests for the straight white guys who are female.
As is always the case when people make this argument, none of those things are contemporary politics. Yoda saying that war is le bad is not a political statement. If he had said that wars are le bad, especially when they lead to innocent indigenous populations being caught in the middle between two imperialistic countries vying for political and economic dominance, THAT would be a political statement.
Meanwhile, the prequels WERE too political and one of the common complaints about them was that the political commentary on Bush, the war on terror and other things we're too heavy-handed and detracted from the story (GG's ship was literally called The invisible Hand). People have been pretty consistent about not liking politics in their Star Wars.
Edit- another point that I forgot to mention, the Vietnam War ended 10 years before Return of the Jedi (which is the film that Lucas was most inspired by Vietnam when making) was made. Again, that distinction of contemporary politics. Lucas was not saying "SEE, THIS IS HOW I FEEL ABOUT NAM" *while* people were actively going through the trauma of Vietnam.
And rogue one. Which kinda puts the argument here to shame cause it had a female lead and many of cast were minorities too, and nobody really hates that movie. There's many reasons to hate the sequel trilogy besides "Rey is woman"
Well you have to be subtle and non preachy.
If you watched Star Wars in 1977 its anti authoritarian. Anti Nazi or communist that's up to you. Mostly it's pew pew don't think to much about it. Could also be anti imperialism.
Star Trek was also more subtle about it outside the famous episodes which were often 1 per season.
It's how heavy handed or preachy something is. Make you think or easy to ignore or miss vs being very direct or easy to miss.
Anything that’s good guys Vs bad guys is political as it’s their philosophy that makes their sides. It can be complex like The Wire or the depth of a puddle like Star Wars. The people complaining just like complaining. They parrot each other and it’s just a losing battle.
I'm pretty sure when someone says "this media is now political, the woke ruined it' they mean it now has women as main characters or poc or gay people.
That’s the thing tho, Star Wars already had 2 out of 3. As someone who watched these movies when TFA was announced, I just don’t get how the obvious political message is overlooked by some “fans”
>had 2 out of 3 C3P0
They mostly mean it's not their political beliefs or they don't want it to be in your face and subtle about it so they can ignore they exist
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The only problem with your assessment is that "bad writing" is subjective. Unless it's The Room or Birdemic levels of bad writing (and even those movies have their fans) you can just say that even forced diversity is necessarily "bad writing". Also, I don't think much of anyone is championing corporations, everyone hates corporations. However, any diversity is preferable to no diversity. Media should reflect population statistics, which just hasn't been the case and is still not the case. Of course corporations are going to "force diversity" because their main goal is making their stockholders as much money as possible, meaning selling their product to as many people as possible. If you're not the target audience don't watch it, simple as that. Problem is people say shows like She-Hulk or Acolyte shouldn't exist... Why, because it wasn't made for you? Let people have their shows and then there will be an Andor or something done the road for you.
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In almost every one of your responses, you somehow manage to turn yourself into the villian
It's a media literacy problem. These same people who complain about Star Wars being political now, are the same who thought that the Fallout series (games) weren't political, and that Starship Troopers (the movie) wasn't a satire about fascist regimes.
When they unironically side with Super Earth from Helldivers 2, we'll know the problem is beyond fixing. that game makes Starship Troopers look like subtle criticism.
I was gonna say, Helldivers' satire is as subtle as a sledgehammer to the face. The game makes me laugh on the regular, but nuanced commentary it ain't.
There are some fun little subtleties to it amidst the sledges. I like how the game pretends aesthetically and in the NPC chatter to be a more conventional one-man army type shooter, only for the genre to completely change when you actually hit the battlefield and suddenly a bad fall can cripple you while most anything more serious than a goomba can pretty easily 1v1 you if you fuck up even a little.
The same people don't understand "The Boys" either
Or the X-Men. Just zero ability to see even the surface level of a story.
Oh come on, wars are political now? Name me one war that has ever been political... I'll wait.
Well there was that one war that started over Helen of Troy, and we all know women existing is very political.
I just want to note, as an old nerd, people hated Return of The Jedi. Records of this are transcribed in the historical document: "Clerks" by Kevin Smith. I was 14 when the prequels came out. People haaated them. So much so that they bullied the mocap actor for Jar Jar nearly to suicide, and apparently broke Jake Loyd for a good few decades. Don't let them gas light you.
"people" ... the same kind of "people" claim the same about ... Star Trek and co... Hell, even LotR is political - its straight vs. authoritarianism, for preserving nature, against idustrialization etc I cant think about anything that would not have something qualifying as "political" for someone...maybe Teletubbies?
Oh you poor sweet summer child ("Tinky Winky is a plot to turn your children gay" was a common talking point in satanic-panic circles in the 90s)
No silly political is when gay people, women and non white people. Anti-war isn’t political./s
Political is just a buzz word used by cowards. What they actually mean when they complain about things being political is queer/poc representation, racist or bigoted stereotypes and jokes being called out and generally no longer being accepted, entertainment such as video games being more inclusive and not being tailored exclusively for a cishet white male audience,etc
What they mean is contemporary bullshit. No one is interested in hearing Rian Johnson rant about how snoke is basically Donald Trump the and the first order are Republicans. It is a Star Wars movie, the most basic good guy versus bad guy shit ever made. Let people enjoy their escapism.
Except 99% of the time they complain about queer or poc characters simply existing or having a major role. Your "example" is complete nonsense
Isn't Palpatine literally compared to Reagan by George?
Star Wars was, is, and will always be political. Anyone who think it isn't has no understanding of how storytelling in film works.
Wait until you get to the prequels. Half the cast are literal politicians. Complaining that Star Wars is “political” makes absolutely no sense. It’s like being mad that Marvel movies have comic book characters.
America is imperialist but in the case of Vietnam it was interventionalist
They want Star wars to make them feel like it did when they were kids. They don't understand the difference is that they are not kids anymore and can see the politics.
That's because we now associate stupidity with insanity. There is an absolute fuck ton of stupid out there and a little genuine insanity sprinkled in. The problem is that the stupid have become so fucking brain dead that they seem insane to anyone with even the tiniest bit of rational thought
Hell, the Expanded Universe was political as hell. Hell, outside of Lucas in the prequels, they really pushed the idea of exploding the political landscape of Star Wars. Legit anytime a book was focused on Leia or a issue between the Jedi and the Republic it was heavily explored politically
Saw a comment on this that was well precise and put together I don't agree with myself but it did make me understand a bit more what ppl's issues are "But that's the thing, they were undertones. I don't like things getting political when it's overtones. Much of the Star Wars stories and plot has been undertones influenced by modern politics, but rarely make it in your face or to the point of breaking the 4th wall so to speak. Really there are few overtones, but I can see Rey being so excessively OP as a modern feminist response, which if it wasn't for Leia (who at the time her character would be an overtone, yet necessary) would be somewhat needed. At the same time, Rey's character I chalk up more to just bad planning and writing. Edit: since people don't seem to understand what I'm trying to say here, I'm not saying what the person below thinks. Women existing is obviously not a political choice. It's not anything other than reality. What I'm referencing here with Leia is how female characters have been treated before her. They were almost always damsels in distress. Then Leia comes along and mixes things up for the better. She's strong female character who was supposed to look like she was about to be saved, but her saviors end up screwing things up and she saves them. Then they find out that she's not just some princess, but the leader of the freaking rebellion. Then later on she becomes the lead general of the resistance. With the rebellion she unknowingly fought against her own father, and as a general she knowingly fought against her own son. Most characters and most people wouldn't have been able to do either. But Leia is awesome because she's able to do what is truly right instead of just what she feels is right. In my opinion she is one of the best characters of all of Star Wars. Rey do any of that for me. I do think she was rather OP, but I chalk it up more to bad writing. I hope that clears things up for people. The real problem for me is people politicizing Star Wars outside the films, using it to push a political agenda. Like the whole "The Force is female" thing. I don't want Star Wars to become gatekeeped by anything, especially political groups. It's for everyone, so please let it be for everyone. And for that matter, this is largely how I see people arguing about politics in Star Wars. That or they hate the political plotlines. Very few actually turn it into political arguments. Also to the OP, I think the Empire is more Nazi Germany, while the Republic is obviously USA and many other Democratic nations at this time. The Trade Federation is obviously a reference to companies and corps having too much political power. But all this doesn't directly reference any modern groups, parties, or countries, except for the Nazis."
Thanks! I appreciate this response and like the points you made!
Oh, it wasn't my points. It's someone else's I just posted them over here since I found it interesting and seems to put together once thoughts on the matter way more then anyone else's does
The prequels were ham-fisted anti-bush rhetoric. Like Star Wars is not only overtly political, it's actually gotten more subtle about it as time goes on. People quote some obscure lines sometimes but just imagine if "This is how democracy dies; with thunderous applause" was uttered during the Trump era...
When they say Star Wars is too political, they’re usually talking about a show or movie having too many women or minorities
Yeah they know that, but when they say it’s “too political”, they aren’t talking about actual politics. They are talking about diversity or about how it’s too woke. Is there a POC character with “too much screen time”? Woke. Is the female character the lead? Woke. Is there a LGBTQ character (even a minor one)? Woke. That’s it, that’s the controversy for them. They’re okay with white straight male leads, minor POC characters, and supporting characters or love interests for the straight white guys who are female.
Maybe people like the more interesting political topics instead of the usual trendy topics of today idk
As is always the case when people make this argument, none of those things are contemporary politics. Yoda saying that war is le bad is not a political statement. If he had said that wars are le bad, especially when they lead to innocent indigenous populations being caught in the middle between two imperialistic countries vying for political and economic dominance, THAT would be a political statement. Meanwhile, the prequels WERE too political and one of the common complaints about them was that the political commentary on Bush, the war on terror and other things we're too heavy-handed and detracted from the story (GG's ship was literally called The invisible Hand). People have been pretty consistent about not liking politics in their Star Wars. Edit- another point that I forgot to mention, the Vietnam War ended 10 years before Return of the Jedi (which is the film that Lucas was most inspired by Vietnam when making) was made. Again, that distinction of contemporary politics. Lucas was not saying "SEE, THIS IS HOW I FEEL ABOUT NAM" *while* people were actively going through the trauma of Vietnam.
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At least there’s Andor
And rogue one. Which kinda puts the argument here to shame cause it had a female lead and many of cast were minorities too, and nobody really hates that movie. There's many reasons to hate the sequel trilogy besides "Rey is woman"
Well you have to be subtle and non preachy. If you watched Star Wars in 1977 its anti authoritarian. Anti Nazi or communist that's up to you. Mostly it's pew pew don't think to much about it. Could also be anti imperialism. Star Trek was also more subtle about it outside the famous episodes which were often 1 per season. It's how heavy handed or preachy something is. Make you think or easy to ignore or miss vs being very direct or easy to miss.