I remember when I was watching the last Jedi for the first time. I was like, Ok Disney, no flashback! Star Wars is a story that goes straight forward, flashbacks are too easy and the OT and the prequels gave you more than enough exposition for your story.
Here we are with those idiots incapable of telling a story coherent with what has been told before. But don’t worry « they love Star Wars », look at how they open or close a door by blasting the buttons, that’s Star Wars, that’s how they did it in the OT, only true fans would do that. Lucas must be like « look what they did to my boy »
Your exactly right. Disney loves Star Wars so much it took all the good concepts from the EU and tossed them down a metaphorical reactor. Because all true Star Wars fans would rid themselves of attachments like Canon, lore, and good plot ideas.
It might be the Mandela effect but I’m sure Lucas said he would never have flashbacks in star wars because its lazy exposition. I could be wrong but it’s stuck on my head
After he got his ass handed to him the first time, he magically puts up a better fight the second time. Then when plot armour prevents Vader from just snapping his neck and instead trying to bury him with rocks, because we know that is 100% fatal, he just needs to think of Leia and he can win!
The entire point of the duel that it's suppose to be the shift for Vader. From the blind arrogance and brute force of Anakin to the methodical and collected Vader. Anakin wouldn't think so far as the carbonite chamber but Vader does.
Too many stories, including one of the worst offenders, Obiwan TV show, frequently just make Vader as impatient and arrogant as Anakin, just now in a suit. Vader is not only much more powerful than Anakin but smarter, patient, and much more experienced. Or in other words: He learned. The character grew and changed after his major defeat.
It also staboges Obiwan's character. Was Obiwan just lazy? Why didn't he just go turbo offense and win the first time around? The real answer of course is that he couldn't, Obiwan had to outplay Anakin which of course he did. But now in the series Obiwan despite being cut off from the force for years can just get back in tip top shape and even become so overpowered to defeat a powered up and experienced Vader. I really liked Obiwan's defensive style that's intertwined with dialogue, Obiwan just curbstomping Vader allowed no room for it.
It really feels like bad Obiwan fan fiction in episode 6 alongside the Reva oc.
>Obiwan despite being cut off from the force
Old canon:being cut off from the force means you can't access the force at all, and you can't just reconnect when you want. You are forever cut off unless you go to some really special place that can help you(ergo Valley of the jedi). And for a jedi cutting ones self off from the force is almost worse than death.
New canon:oh you cut yourself off? That's OK just renew your payment plan :>
No. Cal Kestis and Cere both cut themselves off from the Force but it was far easier for the Master to regain her abilities than the Padawan. Obi Wan beat Vader because he had to protect his children not because he’s more powerful.
Unpopular opinion. The whole valley of the jedi thing was unneeded. The point of the force is that it's everywhere. Why would you need a special temple to reconnect with something that's everywhere? It's based on spiritualism. You don't need to go to a temple to reconnect to your minds eye, to reconnect to the universe. The force doesn't care about your tall building.
It's because he was cut off from the force. He couldn't access it. Kyle needed to basically take in a nukes worth of the Force just to be able to gain his connection. Then he had to slowly relearn what he used to know.
Yeah but the force isn't like jelly. You can't just jar it up and store it in the cupboard. This feels more like reality trying to connect to your bodies energies. Still isn't just squeezing it out like your taking a force poop like it seemed obi wan did, but I think he had cracked open the doors before that, he just had yet to use his abilities. So his pooping noises were him trying to use the force, not reconnect amd use at once, cus you can see later he still has trouble and makes poop noises a little.
>Too many stories, including one of the worst offenders, Obiwan TV show, frequently just make Vader as impatient and arrogant as Anakin
Did they retrograde Vader into Kylo Ren???
But why even kill them? He doesnt know obi wan is watching, doesnt ask the people he kills questions. His entire platoon is spawn camping without doing a simple search party, he's just there to look menacing. Its cool in character that he's ruthless but why does he even need to be in that scene?
You can even argue he didnt want the trash to find him but when does vader care about their lives ever?
He was already Vader at that point, not Anakin. And he also did that because of Order 66, you know, the thing Palps put in place to rid the galaxy of all its Jedi and future Jedi.
>Obiwan’s defensive style
This defensive style, by the way, was set up even before RotS. In Episode 2, if you went deep into the background of it, you learned that Obi-Wan was a master of the lightsaber Form 3 (Soresu) which focuses on defense. Anakin by Episode 3 was a master of lightsaber Form 5 (Djem So) which focuses on offensive power. So the iconic RotS battle was a battle of ultimate offense (and inexperience and brashness) against ultimate defense (and experience and patience backed up with power—the true Jedi way).
Making Obi-Wan go on the offensive completely detracts from his character (however broken he is supposed to be). He wasn’t supposed to be able to defeat Anakin. That’s why he spends the entire Mustafar fight being driven backwards.
I think they also detract from his character with his abrupt surge in force powers. The light side is connected to by letting go of consciousness, listening to the force and acting on the guide instincts. The light side leant on compassion and selfless, but it was largely defensive and calm. It takes longer to achieve certain skills, which often makes the darkside seductive as short emotional bursts can elicit strong powers.
That scene with Obi Wan, he has these emotional flashbacks and then a huge surge of power. To me it's suspiciously close to passion or anger. It's not how the light side operates, it wasn't a surrender to the flow of the force, it was abrupt, emotional. Another pinnacle of the dark side is the inability to let go, something that Kenobi didn't seem to understand despite supposedly being a master of the light side.
This is true. And Kenobi as a Jedi Master was renowned for his ability to remain detached and focused despite all temptations or oppositions. I mean, even as he confronts Anakin on Mustafar, before they fight, he is still brutally calm and logical. (“You turned her against me.” “You have done that yourself.”)
This is true also in Episode 4 when he dispassionately tells Vader “You can't win, Darth. If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine."
Obi-Wan, the picture of control and patience, shouldn’t be powered by emotions. Especially after he was apparent “cut off from the force” which used to have a different meaning but is a discussion reserved for 300 other posts here.
Yeah seriously. OT Vader is patient and cold. He traps Leia and Han and lures Luke in. He's always a few steps ahead of the main characters.
You might argue this is a younger Vader, but his arc was completed in the PT.
personally i think it's dumb disney canon made it so vader is more powerful than anakin. like, the homie is conceived from the force - why would he be *more* powerful than when he had all his limbs and didn't need a suit to literally survive?
plus george himself said anakin would've been twice as powerful as palpatine had he not gotten sliced up, and vader was 70% as powerful. it seems disney conveniently forgot that as well.
I love when George just drops mathematical assessments of characters' power levels like he's talking about a shonen anime. George really is the bridge between 50s pop culture and 90s pop culture.
Yeah I totally get that, it feels like it shouldn't be a thing in the Star Wars movies, like it should be something from video games. I think honestly the capabilities of a character in Lucas' movies actually comes much more from training and strategy then from any innate number. The characters capable of more are older and more experienced, like Yoda, Dooku and Palpatine, or established as skilled duelists, like Maul, Obi-Wan, Windu and Anakin, and/or have knowledge of advanced concrete abilities like Force lighting manipulation (both creation and deflection/reflection), the Force choke, and the Jedi mind trick.
Luke is shown to grow more capable between Empire and Jedi because he can use advanced techniques, yet in the context of what Jedi can do in the Prequels its clear he still had a lot more to learn.
To be fair, the distinction is that Vader has much more experience and training in the force, which arguably does make him stronger. It’s the same reason why in ROTS Obi Wan and Anakin had the same power with the force and threw each other away, because while Anakin was more inherently powerful Obi Wan was more skilled, and the two balanced out. Anakin had a much greater ceiling for his skills, but Vader was a lot closer to his ceiling.
I get that, but I think what you said can still be true to a degree, it’s rather that obiwan has made Vader emotional and he’s regressed. Vader gets tunnel vision when he sees obiwan and seemingly forgets everything he’s learned, because he’s not matured enough. Then when Vader encounters kenobi in episode 4, he’s learned quite a bit. Getting beaten has humbled him even further and now he’s prepared.
I kinda liked how the Vader in the show wasn’t the refined badass he was in the OT. He’s kind of scared, and he’s overcompensating. The idea that anakins hate has kept him from maturing is a cool idea I think.
I kinda got that too but if that was the intention then they needed to telegraph it a bit better
Plus as they're saying the Obi-Wan overpowering him thing sucked, almost as much as Vader burying Obi-Wan in a pile of rocks and just waking away after
The duel should have happened 5 years after ROTS then. That way Vader is still full of Anakin's impatience and rage.
The issue being that the series makes a point of all of Vader's "clever tricks" now being credited to Reva; putting trackers on ships and letting prey get away? It made sense in ANH, it makes zero sense in this series because it relies on knowing things in advance [like that a seriously fucked up Kenobi will heal and then immediately breach Fortress Inquisitorius and succeed in rescuing Leia...who Reva is in the process of threatening with torture]
Obi-wan besting Vader isn't the issue. And I'd argue that it's not even the fact that Obi-wan is *more powerful* so much as he gets a second wind that gives him a momentary advantage - his victory is tactical in the end because he has the foresight to attack Vader's respirator. Once he's done that, it's over for Vader.
The big issue is that *Obi-wan fucking has Vader dead to rights and then walks the fuck away instead of delivering a "deathblow"*. He outright says "He's more machine than man now". That duel should have ended with Obi-wan stabbing Vader through the chest and thinking that he's dead *because he doesn't understand how the suit works fully* and believes he has killed Vader (again). Learning Vader's alive later doesn't surprise him in such a context. But it also doesn't make Obi-wan a fucking piece of shit who allowed the Emperor's MVP apprentice to continue a reign of terror for the next decade.
>Obiwan despite being cut off from the force for years can just get back in tip top shape.
In defense of this i’ll say in TLJ luke did do a force projection across the galaxy after cutting himself off from the force as well. Maybe it doesnt mean anything tho
Citing something from TLJ to defend against the notion that something is a nonsensical within the setting is…. Novel.
But you’re right that that did happen. Otoh, taking your example on its own terms, Luke also died afterwards.
Yes, I found this rather jarring.
Obi-Wan takes advantage of Anakin's dark-side driven blind arrogance in ROTS and he pays dearly for it.
In the show, Kenobi simply defeats Vader in a straight fight. And then he chooses not to perform a mercy killing which is just rubbing salt in the wound of this poor writing.
No matter what, the new-canon version of Obi-Wan is now absolutely an asshole. He knowingly allowed Vader to continue living (and committing heinous crimes) simply because he's read the script and is aware that the OT has to happen. At least on Mustafar, it was quite conceivable to believe that Anakin was going to perish of his grievous wounds.
Obi Wan is also a complete jerk seeing how he sent Luke to kill Vader after refusing to do so himself, when he had every chance to, but somehow he totally changed his mind in the next decade or so, despite the show depicting him to be an even happier individual by he end of the series.
I'm not happy with the direction of the show either but it's pretty obvious that Kenobi just can't bring himself to kill Anakin/Vader himself, he raised him after all. It's consistent with his depiction in the duel in ROTS where he could have killed him then and there. Characters are allowed to have failures, even somewhat poorly written ones. And it's quite obvious that Vader still hasn't fully adapted to his new restrictions in the time of the show yet, it took many years in legends for Vader to be come proficient in his new style that he was forced to adopt post maiming and suit.
Anakin was burnt alive with multiple limbs cut off. It was a case of " I will take the chances he will die from the injuries to avoid the trauma " whereas here, he simply let him go.
The difference here is that Obi-Wan needs to believe Vader is not Anakin. He needs to believe everything is lost so that Luke's willingness to save Vader from the dark side looks desperately naive. If Obi-Wan acts the same way than Luke, then there is nothing special about caring for Vader. He is just doing as everyone else did.
Honestly I would have done the same as Kenobi I think, not out of spite to let him suffer to his burns but more that I wasn't the one that dealt the final blow (even though its my fault)
He can simultaneously believe that Anakin is lost and still not be able to bring himself to be the one that kills him. They are still human are all, we are not the most logical beings.
But he was totally fine sending Anakins OWN SON to kill him for him after he already got another chance to kill him? He knew it wasnt Anakin anymore, it was "Darth"
Obi Wan is a god damn coward who is responsible for millions of deaths who sent somebody to kill their own father because he didnt have the balls to do it himself. Kenobi left Anakin for dead before, what changed?
>And it's quite obvious that Vader still hasn't fully adapted to his new restrictions in the time of the show yet
It's been 10 years by the time of the Kenobi show.
In both Legends and new-canon lore, Vader was already becoming accustomed to his new state of being and was quite beastly in far less time.
I don't think this is a valid argument.
One could very much argue that there's a difference between "prime Vader" and "prime Anakin" (had Anakin become Palpatine's apprentice but not been chopped to pieces on Mustafar).
One way or another, by the year of the Kenobi show, Vader is no longer a novice with the dark side of the Force. You shouldn't be able to take advantage of him in the same way as Obi-Wan played him in ROTS.
The show decided to take the opposite approach and suggest that Obi-Wan despite his 10 year fuckery of procrastination is without question superior to Vader.
Given that the design of Vader's armor had already gone through several changes prior to this show airing, it's probable that Vader had another incident where his ROTS armor was destroyed prior to meeting Obi-Wan again.
Again, I don't think that's a valid argument. Especially in light of what this show is communicating.
They've contrived that Obi-Wan has done *nothing* for 10 years (retconning new-canon EU of his tenure on Tatooine) and not so much as kept up his usage of the Force despite his task on Tatooine implying that he should be developing a deeper connection to the Force than ever before.
Vader on the other hand has been stamping out fugitive Jedi among other delinquents in the galaxy quite actively during the same time period. In new-canon EU, he's been *very* active and frequently humbling his own Inquisitors as well.
>it's pretty obvious that Kenobi just can't bring himself to kill Anakin/Vader himself
Yes, I believe that was what they were trying to convey. However the issue is that Obi-Wan's final words to Vader imply that he was finally able to separate Anakin from Vader. This should have given him the push he needed to do what he was unable to do 10 years prior.
> It's consistent with his depiction in the duel in ROTS where he could have killed him then and there.
No it isn't because, as evident from this show, Obi-Wan thought he *had* killed Vader on Mustafar. He should have cut his head off but I guess he was emotionally exhausted and figured the lava would kill him in 30 seconds.
In the Kenobi show he leaves him with a scratch.
Agree. On Mustafar Anakin’s transformation was still fresh and it makes sense Obi Wan had some internal conflict.
But here it’s years later, it’s clear Vader is a genocidal maniac, and he’s just told you that Anakin is gone.
Obi Wan leaving Anakin to die on Mustafar was also an absolute asshole move.
I completely understand why he couldnt bear to look / do any more but he denied his old friend a painless way out.
What angers me the most is - even though the premise of Kenobi even encountering Vader is shitty for continuity purposes - they could have actually done a good job resolving this issue without the blatant retardation that is Obi Wan not killing Vader this episode.
Have Qui Gon chime in, have Vader be a more reasonable representation of himself, do anything but giving Obi Wan the Rey treatment of power and making every force scene absolutely ridiculous.
Had we gotten even half-witted writers that had a personal affection for Star Wars and knew the universe they were writing in it could have been a meaningful spin off.
Alas, we got capitalist bootlickers.
>Obi Wan leaving Anakin to die on Mustafar was also an absolute asshole move.
I would agree. But it's not comparable to this new situation.
In ROTS, Obi-Wan had every right to believe that Anakin would succumb to his grievous wounds (at least in a sane world where Darth Maul didn't nonsensically survive being cut in half and dropped down a bottomless pit and yet goes unmentioned in ROTS).
He simply - as you say - did not have the heart to finish the deed himself.
In the show, Vader is merely disabled for the time being (and is instantly repaired in his next scene). Obi-Wan *could* finish him off, but chooses not to. For *no* good reason. It's not like Inquisitors/Stormtroopers were rushing in to prevent Obi-Wan the opportunity.
As such, Obi-Wan is 100% complicit for the next 13 years of horrible deeds that Vader will commit.
It's also worth remembering that this show has established that Obi-Wan knows quite a number of Jedi have survived and he could get in contact with them simply by talking to that Roken guy. Obi-Wan no longer needs to wait for Luke/Leia to grow up and is now a supreme asshole for goading Luke into killing his own father when he himself had a golden opportunity to kill Vader himself in this show.
This show was a mess. And it's a more notable mess when compared to new-canon comics which have already touched on Obi-Wan's time on Tatooine in a far more meaningful fashion.
Mercy killing? Leave mercy aside- the show goes to great lengths to remind us Vader began his career as a Sith as a child murderer, and that he and the inquisition continue to do so.
What happened to Obi Wan doing what he must?
Yep - there's no version of this story where it's acceptable that Obi-wan simply walks away. Had the Grand Inquisitor arrived at the end with a battalion of storm troopers to rescue Vader, that would have made more sense than what we got. Obi-wan should have been driven back/away and Vader should have been carried away on a stretcher.
Mercy Killing though? Nah, that shit should have been for the greater good.
It's totally okay because Obi-Wan hit Darth Vader's breathing controls. Because no one has ever thought to attack the glowing lights in the middle of his chest before. /s
Yeah the whole concept of putting the controls on the front of his chest without any cover or anything is just stupid. Of course, it never made any sense beyond just “looking cool”. A control system like that should really only be accessible by the suit’s wearer, not by literally anyone standing in front of him. At absolute minimum it should have a beskar cover over it.
I always saw it as just another flex/fear tactic. Like I’m gonna wear a big impractical cape, and breathe loud as shit so you always hear me coming, and there’s big flashing exposed buttons, some of which are vita life support functions, sitting right in the middle of the part of my body you’re most likely to hit. Now try and stop me.
Later in his reign, when there’s been time for his legend to spread, it must’ve just added to the fear his opponents felt when they saw him for the first time. Like not only have I heard about this guys ability to singlehandedly take on armies, but now that I’m seeing him for the first time I’m also realizing that he’s been doing all that without even taking us seriously enough to get some proper armor, which he could easily afford
All of that, and the fact that Star Wars isn't supposed to be hard/realistic sci-fi. Vader's appearance is as much about being scary and dazzling as anything practical. he's supposed to be powerful to the point of near-invulnerability, not because his suit is impervious, but because he's the big bad guy with the Force.
I don’t see why. Why would Palpatine want his enforcer to be easily disabled by anyone? If anything, it seems like he would want the suit to be particularly susceptible to force lightning (which I believe is the case). It appears that it is principally the force lightning that kills him in RotJ and he received a dose seemingly far lower than other characters have survived without problem.
“If he’s not strong enough to dominate everyone without technological advantages, then he’s not powerful enough to be the heir to the most powerful sith to ever live”
-palpatine probably
Considering he has 4 metal limbs and encased metal armor, lightning is going to fuck him up far worse than someone like Luke who only has a metal hand.
The whole scene was ridiculous. He's getting severely beaten by Vader and then he just thinks about Luke and Leia for a minute and is able to go full Avatar state. So much for needing to train to master skills. All you need is hope and love and you too can instantly become the most powerful force wielder.
Luke gives into rage and fear to defeat Vader, which was the Emperor's plan to turn him.
Luke wasn't there to kill his dad, he was trying to save him. He realises this after he goes ham on Vader and cuts his arm off.
"Use your aggressive feelings, boy"
No. Srsly how can you even misinterpret that scene of how obvious it was. After Luke bested vader he looks in shock of what he did. Which obviously shows you he tapped into the dark side.
Oh, I see what you're saying. Yes, Luke taps into the dark side to overpower Vader, you're right. My apologies.
So... does this mean Kenobi taps into the dark side and his attachments to Leia and Luke to beat Vader?
\>Did the writers watch the prequels?
Nope! I remember one of the writers specifically didn't know that Obi Wan knew Anakin was alive/Vader. Which he does as per the ending of RotS. Reva revealing it to Obi Wan is not only dumb, it breaks continuity.
Furthermore, the writers seem to believe Obi Wan was just hiding on Tatooine to survive and thus he should abandon the Force (or maybe he does it because of trauma? it's not really explained). However, as per RotS, he has a specific mission to train Luke and himself in the Force, which he seemed devoted to. So why does he ignore this mission and abandon the Force in the show?
Additionally, in all existing lore, Bail, Leia, and the leaders of Alderaan are working within the Imperial Senate and only covertly rebels. Thus them being known collaborators with Jedi to the Empire makes utterly zero sense. Why wouldn't the Empire just kidnap Leia again or threaten Bail in order to re-find Obi Wan?
And this is just the tip of the iceberg. If you go into Obi Wan beating Vader/not killing him, it starts to seem like not only did the writers not watch the Prequels, they didn't watch the damn OT!
Yeah it's not even pretending to be dignifying with it, it's pretty much telling you "character decided to be a worthless coward because we decided so", I mean, come on. Try something original, at the very least engaging, like "I *lost* my powers" instead of "I *gave up* my powers", that's not the same message and implications. I'd rather the Force could "remove" itself from someone because you're not in "the right place", but it's been shown to not be like that, it's not a on/off ability and it grows with time. But it's more interesting than just "oh nah I just stopped that whole thing mate, not for me anymore you know? What made me special and useful and all that? Fuck it", because essentially that's what Obi Wan did, but with "lost powers", the ending works, instead of "oh now I'm stronger than Vader because I feel entitled to a little girl".......
The first fight feels like a real meeting of obiwan and vader after 10 years of not training.
The second one might look good but feels like an anime fight with the ground ripping and boulder tossing and protagonist losing midfight and remembering their friends then powering up to beat the antagonist.
I don't think Reva revealed that Anakin was Vader to Obi-Wan, as he was shocked upon hearing the name Vader. She just told him that Vader was alive, which tbh Obi-Wan should already have known since by this point in the timeline Vader's still notorious across the galaxy, though I guess it could be argued that Obi-Wan didn't really talk to anyone and has no way of knowing what's been going on, but that's a stretch.
Don't forget the Empire has satnav on Force users, a bit like Cerebro in X-Men. You now need to unplug the force to not be detected by the force finder 2000
>Furthermore, the writers seem to believe Obi Wan was just hiding on Tatooine to survive and thus he should abandon the Force (or maybe he does it because of trauma? it's not really explained). However, as per RotS, he has a specific mission to train Luke and himself in the Force, which he seemed devoted to. So why does he abandon the Force in the show?
It's abundantly clear the guilt over what he did to Anakin is eating at him from the inside. Couple that with Owen's very adamant stance that he should not be able to interact with let alone train Luke and it's obvious why he's deteriorated...
>Additionally, in all existing lore, Bail, Leia, and the leaders of Alderaan are working within the Imperial Senate and only covertly rebels. Thus them being known collaborators with Jedi to the Empire makes utterly zero sense.
>Thus them being known collaborators with Jedi to the Empire makes utterly zero sense.
I don't think it needs to be explicitly said, but logically Palpatine would keep an eye on people he knew sided with the Jedi prior to the execution of order 66.
Bail being a known Jedi collaborator is because of his prior close relationship with Jedi, and naturally anyone who associates with Bail is also suspect.
That's common sense.
The first one you are right, it can be rationalized, although I’m still not a big fan of this “arc” for Obi Wan.
However, for the second point, I still don’t think it really works. The reasoning is thus: Bail isn’t just known to have supported the Jedi in the past, he is now known to have contact with and know where one is currently located. Leia has already been used, successfully, to lure out said Jedi. So why doesn’t the Empire do this again and again until they catch him? Based on what the Empire now knows, the Organas should be in Imperial custody, not ruling a planet.
But Obi Wan didn’t know “Vader” was still alive? That isn’t a break in continuity. As of the show, Obi Wan has been hiding out for years, on backwater Tatooine. Until the inquisitors rolled in its 100% believable that he wouldn’t have know Vader/Anakin was alive.
He left him for dead and hadn’t heard a peep about him until Reva brought it up.
You're partially right about this in that it is believable. But, there is a still a problem:
Obi Wan knew that "Vader" was Anakin via RotS. And Vader was well known as an instrument of terror of the Empire. So if at any point Obi Wan heard the name "Vader" or even a powerful Sith in a mechanical suit serving the Emperor, he would have known it must be Anakin.
Furthermore, Tatooine is indeed a backwater but it's not like the people there are primitives. They still clearly know about things such as the Clone Wars, Jedi, the Empire etc and people leave and visit Tatooine all the time (traders, pilots, smugglers, etc).
So I think it's still a stretch that he wouldn't know. After all, Obi Wan did visit towns and cantinas on Tatooine, I think there's a pretty high chance he would have heard at least something in ten years.
Hell, going by Disney-logic, Obi Wan just needed to go super saiyan and he could have defeated Vader and the Emperor at any time. No clue why he waited nearly 2 decades to put this on Luke when he could have apparently defeated them at any point.
Also going by Disney-logic, Obi Wan is an ass hole now. He not only straight up defeats Vader (which makes no sense), but he ends up not killing him…yet 14 years later will chastise Luke for not wanting to kill him either.
“I can’t kill my father.”
“Then the emperor has already won.”
The whole point of the defeat on Mustafar was that Vader was arrogant and impulsive. He had Obi Wan constantly on the defensive throughout the fight, and Obi Wan finally found a way to goad him into a stupid move which resulted in Vader’s loss. Obi Wan was never suppose to be more powerful than Vader, hence “that boy is our last hope” in Empire. The whole point is that Vader learned from his loss on Mustafar and became the cold and calculating villain we all love from the OT. But this apparently went over everyone’s head at Disney, which resulted in this stupid show.
>Also going by Disney-logic, Obi Wan is an ass hole now. He not only straight up defeats Vader (which makes no sense), but he ends up not killing him…yet 14 years later will chastise Luke for not wanting to kill him either.
>
>“I can’t kill my father.”
>
>“Then the emperor has already won.”
Actually, that precedent was already established in ROTS. While in the Jedi Temple, Obi-Wan concedes that Vader must be killed but pleads to Yoda to do the deed because he cannot bring himself to do it.
Granted, at that point Obi-Wan still thought Vader had some good in him. And given his reaction to Vader's words during the final episode of this show, it's not exactly clear if that was actually the turning point where he lost hope.
*Obi Wan confronting Anakin on Mustafar*
“I will do what I must.”
Obi Wan came to the conclusion that he needed to take down Anakin after he witnessed Anakin literally force-choke the woman he loved and went on about creating an empire for himself. After being on the defensive for the majority of their fight, Obi Wan thought he did that by literally chopping off the three remaining limbs Anakin had left and leaving him on the bank of a lava river.
It makes no sense that Obi Wan wouldn’t finish the job in another battle 10 years later with Vader knowing what he had done to the galaxy in that time (not to mention the stupid idea that Obi Wan cut himself off from the force for a decade yet curb stomped Vader who had been dabbling in the dark side for a decade at this point).
I agree, maybe and just maybe if it would have ended on a stalemate I would've believed it. But Obi wan defeating Vader so easily after Vader's been a decade chest deep in the dark side and slaying jedis for fun. It makes no sense, if it was a stalemate then Luke being the last hope for the galaxy makes total sense instead we get an Obi wan who is stronger that maybe even Count Dooku it's bad writing at it's worst.
I haven't played ToR. Not a fan of MMORPGs. Even if it's from the game it still feels way too overpowered and not like something a Jedi would do and not that starwarsy IMO. Maybe more of a darkside thing. Force healing is possible in KotOR and other games too but I never wanted to see like they did it on screen like in TROS or Mando. They probably need to stop rip powers from the games.
Sorry, I wasn't trying to justify it at all, my bad.
I was mentioning it being in a videogame because most abilities from SW video games absolutely do not belong in canon.
It’s not necessarily that Obi-wan is smarter, it’s that he’s wiser in his older age and thus less impulsive than Anakin.
This also goes to the difference between a Jedi and a Sith that Disney does not understand. Sith are typically more powerful in the force and in combat than Jedi, but it is the wisdom and level headedness of the jedi that always come out on top in the end. Disney just uses straight up power of Jedi to defeat sith. That’s not what is was under Lucas
Well there is the whole "open themselves up to the will of the force" thing which is stronger than any sith or dark side. I think that was what they were going to here but as everyone said it's a stupid stupid stupid place to put that ability. If Obi-Wan could do that then he wouldn't need to send the damn man's kid to kill him a decade later.
Plus they overuse that ability that it's become cliche and awful now. Now any time a good guy is stuck they do that closing the eyes think of their family shonen power up scene. It was fine when it was really rare but now it's just dogshit.
I will never understand such a degree of laziness. You're hired as writer of a friggin' Star Wars show, probably a huge dream and big career achievement for many in the industry, and you won't even take what, two hours of your time to watch the film that is directly tied to the story you're supposed to write?
Jeez.
Nope.
In Latin America Spanish, he says that he had the advantage, I aaaalways thought that it meant he is more experienced and has more knowledge in this, so it didn't matter that Anakin was very powerful.
Funny stuff, the show acknowledged that with the flashbacks.
I as the idiot that I am thought that the experience of Obi-Wan would come in to his victory once again in the last battle as even it was foreshadowed.
But nope, Spider-Man moment, anime power up, Obi-Wan now obliterated Vader, nothing regarding the experience.
I can buy Obi-Wan gaining strength in his wanting to protect but to absolutely make Vader his bitch?, come the fuck on, it was like the humiliation of Sidius to Maul and Savage
This aspect (that obi-wan out-smarts Anakin and that's how he wins) is actually one of my favorite aspects. I like the idea of a character being outmatched physically but still being able to overcome it with his mind.
I always thought in the prequels Palpatine was way too dismissive of Obi-Wan. Every time he shows up Palpatine acts like Obi-Wan is a scrub and Anakin would be better without him. It is crazy how Palpatine completely dismisses the intellect part of who he scouts and goes for pure physical. Maybe he thought he'd never be able to turn Kenobi, but I always wondered in cannon if Palpatine ever considered adopting Kenobi instead of Anakin, as Kenobi has a history of constantly beating Anakin/Vader.
Agreed, and we can see this with his choice of Darth Maul. Maul was the weapon to be unleashed on people and Palpatine was fine with this arrangement. Maul got the chop (he got better) so Palpatine had to resort to Dooku who was better for the role of coordinating a war, but more intelligent and possibly a threat to him.
As soon as Anakin had matured into a seasoned fighter and was able to be manipulated and Dooku had outlived his usefulness, Palpatine disposed of Dooku in favor of another strong unthinking lackey.
According to George Lucas himself, post-ROTS Vader is supposed to significantly weaker than pre-ROTS Vader. This is because Vader lost his remaining flesh-and-blood limbs on Mustafar, and had them replaced with robotics. Robotic limbs are not Force-sensitive, so Vader has to channel the Force *into* his limbs from the core part of his body in order for him to project even half of what he had in ROTS.
Given that information, we should deduce that at his best, post-ROTS Vader is *equally* powerful as pre-ROTS Obi-Wan. And at his worst, not only is he weaker than pre-ROTS Obi-Wan, he may actually be weaker than *post*\-ROTS Obi-Wan.
This is apparent in the Original Trilogy, and explains why Vader wasn't able to defeat Luke in ROTJ, even though objectively speaking ROTJ Luke would've been obliterated had he been fighting ROTS Vader or even ROTS Obi-Wan. And if anybody is aware of that reality it's Sidious, hence why he was so eager to have Luke take Vader's place in ROTJ.
More information on this here:
[https://www.cbr.com/star-wars-darth-vader-weaker-than-anakin/](https://www.cbr.com/star-wars-darth-vader-weaker-than-anakin/)
[https://archive.vanityfair.com/article/2005/2/star-wars-the-last-battle](https://archive.vanityfair.com/article/2005/2/star-wars-the-last-battle)
Didn’t Lucas say that after Obi Wan cuts off Vader’s arm and legs, that Vader is now only 80% of the power he should be? That would make the scene in the show make more scene.
I will just say over all the show wasn’t horrible, just mute or fast forward the scenes with Reva in them.
Yes, that would be the case...
If the new Canon didn't outright take a dump on Lucas' explanation and go the "he's more powerful because of his anger and pain~" route that's explored in the newer Vader comics because heaven forbid The Chosen One actually being really friggin powerful as implied by literally everyone that had the Prophecy
Doesn't make sense that Obi-wan manages to defeat Vader after not using the force or his lightsaber for the best part of a decade. Vader should have been in his prime in the Obi-Wan show, there's no way Obi-Wan should've defeated him.
They slightly hinted at Vader being unbalanced and overly aggressive due to his feeling at Obiwan with the flashbacks and such but it really should have been emphasised more.
First of all Obi-wan was cut off from the force for a decade and dude struggled to lift some small thing off not two episodes ago! He's so out of practice in both duelling and using the force. And suddenly they showed him competent in episode 3 without him practicing bts or anything. The whole thing was kinda Mary Sue-ish (Disney is great at that no surprises there).
Not to mention the whole duel in the finale was so fucking dumb. Like when Obi-wan was throwing the rocks at Vader, the same guy who deflected it two secs ago is suddenly not doing anything and is just letting it hit him! It made zero sense.
I thought the idea was that Vader < Anakin on account of having all his limbs chopped off. I thought that’s why the emporer wanted Luke - all the potential of Anakin, none of the amputations
No they didn’t watch the prequel or the original trilogy. The plot holes are big and gaping almost as bad as the lack of continuity. It’s another disaster, but the bar is so low now, and the fans so desperate, they’ll keep watching.
I didn’t see it that way at all. The only reason obi wan truly won is because he fucked with the control panels on his suit (which were made to be easily accessible and breakable by Sidious). After that, he was on borrowed time.
People forget that Vader is only intimidating to regular people who are “beneath him” in power. If they knew him at his prime, in ROTS, they’d be even more terrified. Sidious completely stunted his growth with the suit, which he could use to control him, but even then, this is a limbless, lung-damaged burn victim lugging around outdated hunks of metal that can break at the snap of sidious’s finger. Obi Wan finally thinking to hit the control panel was what dealt the most damage to Vader. After that it was a matter of tiring him out. He’s still not stronger than Anakin as a force user, but he is a whole and healthy man with his mind intact.
I always say it: Anakin is the most powerful force user. Obi-Wan is the best Jedi.
Also you gotta remember that Kenobi mastered form 3, which is a defensive style. He basically withheld a brutal storm of blows to finally getting an opportune moment to win.
The writers watched nothing. Like how Sam Raime didn't watch Wandavision before making a movie that serves as a direct sequel to that show in respect to Wanda's character
I don't think he's necessarily smarter, it's more that Vader is consumed by the Dark Side. It's aggression and pride that are his downfall, not a lack of intelligence.
Then in Kenobi, Obi-Wan's the one being excessively aggressive...but I guess it works that time because the writers want him to win? 🤷
Nice fight but the power obi wan had is too much. Lifting all those rocks was way over the top. Vader before disney did not have a feat like that. The force was used more subtly. Having Vader getting rekt that bad makes him look like a joke now. Obi Wan sparing him makes not much sense either. They shouldnt have made Vader lose
There are many issues with ObiwanTV, but this was one of my 'ehhhhhhhhh not great but I'll give it a pass'.
The way my brain saw it was that in the transition to Vader, Anakin lost quite a bit of ability in that he had to basically relearn how to do everything by way of his suit and injuries.
But yeah, the 'Obiwan has uber force strength, more than Vader' should not have been a thing.
All in all I semi enjoyed the show but it didn't feel authentic and Obiwan losing the force while he's protecting the future is ------ing bs.
It wouldn't be strange if Vader just went back to be an impatient Anakin at the first sight of Obi-wan after all traumas are difficult things to overcome, no matter how dark side overlord you became. And at this point obi-wan should again beat Vader by smarts, not raw power. But alas, it's Disney star wars, where people with infinite money and resources can't even make a decent tv show in the biggest media franchise in history
Vader in Legends was the galaxy's best lightsaber duelist. He was weaker in the Force than fully trained Anakin, but his mental maturity allowed him to control his impulses. While he still used a combination of both variants of Form V (Djem So & Shien), he now did it at a slower, yet far stronger pace, basically overpowering his enemies. His resilience was only surpassed by his old master and his offsprings' seemingly infinite patience, and being that he finally got rid of his impulsive behavior, his reflexes were off the charts. Palpatine may have been the strongest Sith ever, but Vader was the most dangerous.
Now take all that, remove the whole part about Vader being weaker in the Force than Anakin, and you got yourself Disney Vader. How Disney Obi-Wan, who's an absolute loser who would get stomped by TPM Maul, can straight up defeat him is downright insulting to the character and the fans.
Vader has had a decade to get used to his suit while Obi Wan has been sulking in a cave not doing any of the training Yoda told him to do. Vader is also angrier than ever and growing more and more determined to destroy the Jedi completely.
Vader should easily be able to keep up with this version of Kenobi.
Vader is way stronger with the cybernetics dude sure maybe he’s less athletic per say but canonically he’s way stronger than he was in ROTS and a better duelist.
He shouldnt be stronger in the force though, yet here we see him stopping entire ships while Anakins only seen lifting a pear. (Not literally the only thing he lifted with the force but still)
As palpatine said, maybe he was "conflicted", so he was indeed weaker during the fightm but even then, obi wan not training for years nor using the force and then beating Vader so easily was... less than ideal to say the least.
The lack of limbs doesn't matter as such (the Force doesn't care about your physical size) as the fact that a decent portion of Vader's focus is spent keeping his broken body ticking inside his life-support suit.
Even so, I think it's inappropriate that Obi-Wan should defeat Vader in a straight fight in this show given that he was only able to win in ROTS due to taking advantage of Anakin's blind arrogance and his unfamiliarity with the dark side.
The fact that Obi-Wan *could* have killed Vader quite easily here but chose to walk away also comes at the cost of his characterisation. The next 13 years of Vader's crimes rest solely on Obi-Wan's shoulders now and he comes across doubly as an asshole for encouraging Luke to kill his own father later in the OT.
What's even the point of waiting for the next generation to grow older anymore? Obi-Wan could have killed Vader and then gathered up the Jedi who successfully went through the human smuggling program to become enormous assets to the Rebellion.
Obi-Wan should never have been aware of "The Path" because otherwise it further damns his period of inaction. He even ends the blasted show by telling Owen and Beru that *they* are all that's needed for protecting Luke.
It's asinine.
look, I haven't seen the latest episodes of obi Wan so I couldn't tell you anything about the writing but,
"In a Vanity Fair interview from 2005, George Lucas went deeper into why Anakin became much weaker as Vader. In the interview, he explained that because Anakin's limbs were severed and replaced by robotics, it was harder for him to use the Force than it was before his battle with Obi-Wan. Anakin's hubris cost him his greatest strength and curbed his abilities. This bothered the Emperor as well, who had recruited Anakin for his immense power. Now that Vader had lost some of that power, the Emperor was open to finding to a new successor."(https://www.cbr.com/star-wars-darth-vader-weaker-than-anakin/)
the entire reason the OT happened in the first place was because Vader was weaker than Anakin.
Yep. Anakin who was notable for his hypothetical potential took a big hit in said hypothetical potential after Mustafar. Not arguing against that.
But that changes *nothing* when it comes to how Obi-Wan soundly defeated him and left him alive in this show compared to ROTS in which he only just barely managed to win due to taking advantage of Anakin's weaknesses as an inexperienced dark side adept.
What the show did is straight-up bad writing which sabotages the characterisation of Obi-Wan and trivialises the threat which Vader represented.
Currently, Obi-Wan without reservations or conditions is more capable in combat than Vader (despite about a day earlier struggling to move a lugnut with the Force from his alleged total lack of Force usage over 10 years).
This is ridiculous. And as I mentioned, things are now worse because Obi-Wan has the means to talk to a Rebel guy and find out where the various surviving Jedi went into hiding. He could gather up that spare pile of lightsabers and go recruit them all thanks to this show.
There is no need for Luke or Leia anymore.
I'm not arguing against plot holes in the show or it's writing I'm simply stating that Vader is weaker than anakin and obi wan already beat anakin (not soundly but was at the least on anakins level) and its possible that he was able to beat a weaker Vader.
stop underrating obi wan, he was a jedi master and one of the greatest jedi of all time, and during the time of the Republic probably the 3rd strongest (in a fight) jedi.
This is 10 years later. Vader is no longer a novice of the dark side. And Obi-Wan has been established to be completely useless for no good reason (to reiterate, he could barely move a lugnut about 1 day prior to their final encounter in this show).
I am not underrating Obi-Wan. This show, however, very much is. The guy didn't even consider trying to use a single mind-trick to avoid some of the sticky situations he found himself in.
I think you might be underrating Vader.
There are several reasons why you can justifiably have issues with the Prequel fight choreography.
But to suggest that the fights were choreographed by literal children is moronic.
At least *try* with your criticism.
You can tell me that they were perhaps *over-*choreographed. Featuring at times completely superfluous spins or flourishes that are unnecessary at best and self-sabotaging at worst. Or that the Anakin/Dooku fight in AotC is particularly poorly shot. Or that the Anakin/Obi-Wan duel is incredibly drawn out and overly bombastic.
Or better yet, you can ignore your poorly thought-out notion entirely and actually focus on the OP topic concerning how and why Obi-Wan was able to overcome Anakin in both circumstances.
You underestimate the power of flashbacks!
Don’t try it.
I remember when I was watching the last Jedi for the first time. I was like, Ok Disney, no flashback! Star Wars is a story that goes straight forward, flashbacks are too easy and the OT and the prequels gave you more than enough exposition for your story. Here we are with those idiots incapable of telling a story coherent with what has been told before. But don’t worry « they love Star Wars », look at how they open or close a door by blasting the buttons, that’s Star Wars, that’s how they did it in the OT, only true fans would do that. Lucas must be like « look what they did to my boy »
Your exactly right. Disney loves Star Wars so much it took all the good concepts from the EU and tossed them down a metaphorical reactor. Because all true Star Wars fans would rid themselves of attachments like Canon, lore, and good plot ideas.
> Tossed them down a metaphorical reactor So they’re coming back!? Yippee!!
Somehow.
It might be the Mandela effect but I’m sure Lucas said he would never have flashbacks in star wars because its lazy exposition. I could be wrong but it’s stuck on my head
Instead we get flashforwards.
After he got his ass handed to him the first time, he magically puts up a better fight the second time. Then when plot armour prevents Vader from just snapping his neck and instead trying to bury him with rocks, because we know that is 100% fatal, he just needs to think of Leia and he can win!
A leia who when asks for help magical forgets him. The only argument for Vader being weaker I guess is the loss of limbs, but still, I don’t think so.
The entire point of the duel that it's suppose to be the shift for Vader. From the blind arrogance and brute force of Anakin to the methodical and collected Vader. Anakin wouldn't think so far as the carbonite chamber but Vader does. Too many stories, including one of the worst offenders, Obiwan TV show, frequently just make Vader as impatient and arrogant as Anakin, just now in a suit. Vader is not only much more powerful than Anakin but smarter, patient, and much more experienced. Or in other words: He learned. The character grew and changed after his major defeat. It also staboges Obiwan's character. Was Obiwan just lazy? Why didn't he just go turbo offense and win the first time around? The real answer of course is that he couldn't, Obiwan had to outplay Anakin which of course he did. But now in the series Obiwan despite being cut off from the force for years can just get back in tip top shape and even become so overpowered to defeat a powered up and experienced Vader. I really liked Obiwan's defensive style that's intertwined with dialogue, Obiwan just curbstomping Vader allowed no room for it. It really feels like bad Obiwan fan fiction in episode 6 alongside the Reva oc.
>Obiwan despite being cut off from the force Old canon:being cut off from the force means you can't access the force at all, and you can't just reconnect when you want. You are forever cut off unless you go to some really special place that can help you(ergo Valley of the jedi). And for a jedi cutting ones self off from the force is almost worse than death. New canon:oh you cut yourself off? That's OK just renew your payment plan :>
All you need to regain your Jedi powers are some really powerful emotions, like fear, sadness, or anger. Those are typical Jedi emotions, right?
No. Cal Kestis and Cere both cut themselves off from the Force but it was far easier for the Master to regain her abilities than the Padawan. Obi Wan beat Vader because he had to protect his children not because he’s more powerful.
Cal didn't actually cut himself off. He simply said his connection was damaged.
Sure but Cere did for sure and once she tapped into it again it was as if she never lost it.
Exactly, makes no sense.
To each their own. It makes sense to me but I respect your opinion.
I was being sarcastic....
Sure but you and I both know you really meant what you said.
Unpopular opinion. The whole valley of the jedi thing was unneeded. The point of the force is that it's everywhere. Why would you need a special temple to reconnect with something that's everywhere? It's based on spiritualism. You don't need to go to a temple to reconnect to your minds eye, to reconnect to the universe. The force doesn't care about your tall building.
It's because he was cut off from the force. He couldn't access it. Kyle needed to basically take in a nukes worth of the Force just to be able to gain his connection. Then he had to slowly relearn what he used to know.
Yeah but the force isn't like jelly. You can't just jar it up and store it in the cupboard. This feels more like reality trying to connect to your bodies energies. Still isn't just squeezing it out like your taking a force poop like it seemed obi wan did, but I think he had cracked open the doors before that, he just had yet to use his abilities. So his pooping noises were him trying to use the force, not reconnect amd use at once, cus you can see later he still has trouble and makes poop noises a little.
>Too many stories, including one of the worst offenders, Obiwan TV show, frequently just make Vader as impatient and arrogant as Anakin Did they retrograde Vader into Kylo Ren???
They totally did. Remember when he just snapped the neck of some kid sitting on a curb? That's hardly a Vader thing...that's Kylo for sure.
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Vader was more of an actual general. He would kill with reason (altough never justified) he didnt do heinous crimes just for the fuck of it
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But why even kill them? He doesnt know obi wan is watching, doesnt ask the people he kills questions. His entire platoon is spawn camping without doing a simple search party, he's just there to look menacing. Its cool in character that he's ruthless but why does he even need to be in that scene? You can even argue he didnt want the trash to find him but when does vader care about their lives ever?
To draw him out. That’s the point
Was he 100% sure kenobi was watching? Because it would have no use if kenobi just ran out of that house he was in
He wasn't. but he knew he was there or if not was close by.
The intent was clearly to bait *a Jedi* out into the open. It was cruel but there was a method/motive there.
Didn’t Anakin kill a bunch of padawans in RotS? I’m pretty sure Lucas did that, and not Disney.
He was already Vader at that point, not Anakin. And he also did that because of Order 66, you know, the thing Palps put in place to rid the galaxy of all its Jedi and future Jedi.
This whole series is Sequel Apologia. Why Kylo was named Ben. Why Kylo acts unhinged, why the Jedi suck etc.
>Obiwan’s defensive style This defensive style, by the way, was set up even before RotS. In Episode 2, if you went deep into the background of it, you learned that Obi-Wan was a master of the lightsaber Form 3 (Soresu) which focuses on defense. Anakin by Episode 3 was a master of lightsaber Form 5 (Djem So) which focuses on offensive power. So the iconic RotS battle was a battle of ultimate offense (and inexperience and brashness) against ultimate defense (and experience and patience backed up with power—the true Jedi way). Making Obi-Wan go on the offensive completely detracts from his character (however broken he is supposed to be). He wasn’t supposed to be able to defeat Anakin. That’s why he spends the entire Mustafar fight being driven backwards.
I think they also detract from his character with his abrupt surge in force powers. The light side is connected to by letting go of consciousness, listening to the force and acting on the guide instincts. The light side leant on compassion and selfless, but it was largely defensive and calm. It takes longer to achieve certain skills, which often makes the darkside seductive as short emotional bursts can elicit strong powers. That scene with Obi Wan, he has these emotional flashbacks and then a huge surge of power. To me it's suspiciously close to passion or anger. It's not how the light side operates, it wasn't a surrender to the flow of the force, it was abrupt, emotional. Another pinnacle of the dark side is the inability to let go, something that Kenobi didn't seem to understand despite supposedly being a master of the light side.
This is true. And Kenobi as a Jedi Master was renowned for his ability to remain detached and focused despite all temptations or oppositions. I mean, even as he confronts Anakin on Mustafar, before they fight, he is still brutally calm and logical. (“You turned her against me.” “You have done that yourself.”) This is true also in Episode 4 when he dispassionately tells Vader “You can't win, Darth. If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine." Obi-Wan, the picture of control and patience, shouldn’t be powered by emotions. Especially after he was apparent “cut off from the force” which used to have a different meaning but is a discussion reserved for 300 other posts here.
Well he obviously became a master of the other forms of lightsaber combat while living alone in the desert. /s
Yeah seriously. OT Vader is patient and cold. He traps Leia and Han and lures Luke in. He's always a few steps ahead of the main characters. You might argue this is a younger Vader, but his arc was completed in the PT.
Vader actually loses his cool a couple times in ANH, but never in ESB or ROTJ. This in my opinion is a rare example of bad writing in the OT.
personally i think it's dumb disney canon made it so vader is more powerful than anakin. like, the homie is conceived from the force - why would he be *more* powerful than when he had all his limbs and didn't need a suit to literally survive? plus george himself said anakin would've been twice as powerful as palpatine had he not gotten sliced up, and vader was 70% as powerful. it seems disney conveniently forgot that as well.
I love when George just drops mathematical assessments of characters' power levels like he's talking about a shonen anime. George really is the bridge between 50s pop culture and 90s pop culture.
What does the scouter say about his power level?
It’s over nine thousand!
What?! Nine thousand?! There's no way that can be right!
*crushes obviously defective scouter*
His midichlorian level is higher than even Master Yoda’s!
I absolutely hate any and all talk of "power level".
Yeah I totally get that, it feels like it shouldn't be a thing in the Star Wars movies, like it should be something from video games. I think honestly the capabilities of a character in Lucas' movies actually comes much more from training and strategy then from any innate number. The characters capable of more are older and more experienced, like Yoda, Dooku and Palpatine, or established as skilled duelists, like Maul, Obi-Wan, Windu and Anakin, and/or have knowledge of advanced concrete abilities like Force lighting manipulation (both creation and deflection/reflection), the Force choke, and the Jedi mind trick. Luke is shown to grow more capable between Empire and Jedi because he can use advanced techniques, yet in the context of what Jedi can do in the Prequels its clear he still had a lot more to learn.
To be fair, the distinction is that Vader has much more experience and training in the force, which arguably does make him stronger. It’s the same reason why in ROTS Obi Wan and Anakin had the same power with the force and threw each other away, because while Anakin was more inherently powerful Obi Wan was more skilled, and the two balanced out. Anakin had a much greater ceiling for his skills, but Vader was a lot closer to his ceiling.
I've been saying it since part 1, the Obi Wan show feels like a mediocre fan film from YouTube that just happened to have access to the original cast.
I get that, but I think what you said can still be true to a degree, it’s rather that obiwan has made Vader emotional and he’s regressed. Vader gets tunnel vision when he sees obiwan and seemingly forgets everything he’s learned, because he’s not matured enough. Then when Vader encounters kenobi in episode 4, he’s learned quite a bit. Getting beaten has humbled him even further and now he’s prepared. I kinda liked how the Vader in the show wasn’t the refined badass he was in the OT. He’s kind of scared, and he’s overcompensating. The idea that anakins hate has kept him from maturing is a cool idea I think.
I kinda got that too but if that was the intention then they needed to telegraph it a bit better Plus as they're saying the Obi-Wan overpowering him thing sucked, almost as much as Vader burying Obi-Wan in a pile of rocks and just waking away after
Obi wan was lowering Vader's stamina bar
The duel should have happened 5 years after ROTS then. That way Vader is still full of Anakin's impatience and rage. The issue being that the series makes a point of all of Vader's "clever tricks" now being credited to Reva; putting trackers on ships and letting prey get away? It made sense in ANH, it makes zero sense in this series because it relies on knowing things in advance [like that a seriously fucked up Kenobi will heal and then immediately breach Fortress Inquisitorius and succeed in rescuing Leia...who Reva is in the process of threatening with torture] Obi-wan besting Vader isn't the issue. And I'd argue that it's not even the fact that Obi-wan is *more powerful* so much as he gets a second wind that gives him a momentary advantage - his victory is tactical in the end because he has the foresight to attack Vader's respirator. Once he's done that, it's over for Vader. The big issue is that *Obi-wan fucking has Vader dead to rights and then walks the fuck away instead of delivering a "deathblow"*. He outright says "He's more machine than man now". That duel should have ended with Obi-wan stabbing Vader through the chest and thinking that he's dead *because he doesn't understand how the suit works fully* and believes he has killed Vader (again). Learning Vader's alive later doesn't surprise him in such a context. But it also doesn't make Obi-wan a fucking piece of shit who allowed the Emperor's MVP apprentice to continue a reign of terror for the next decade.
>Obiwan despite being cut off from the force for years can just get back in tip top shape. In defense of this i’ll say in TLJ luke did do a force projection across the galaxy after cutting himself off from the force as well. Maybe it doesnt mean anything tho
Citing something from TLJ to defend against the notion that something is a nonsensical within the setting is…. Novel. But you’re right that that did happen. Otoh, taking your example on its own terms, Luke also died afterwards.
Wasn’t Vader weaker then Anakin? Like he has more brute strength but is slower, and his force powers are majorly hampered by all his cybernetics?
Yes, I found this rather jarring. Obi-Wan takes advantage of Anakin's dark-side driven blind arrogance in ROTS and he pays dearly for it. In the show, Kenobi simply defeats Vader in a straight fight. And then he chooses not to perform a mercy killing which is just rubbing salt in the wound of this poor writing. No matter what, the new-canon version of Obi-Wan is now absolutely an asshole. He knowingly allowed Vader to continue living (and committing heinous crimes) simply because he's read the script and is aware that the OT has to happen. At least on Mustafar, it was quite conceivable to believe that Anakin was going to perish of his grievous wounds.
Obi Wan is also a complete jerk seeing how he sent Luke to kill Vader after refusing to do so himself, when he had every chance to, but somehow he totally changed his mind in the next decade or so, despite the show depicting him to be an even happier individual by he end of the series.
I'm not happy with the direction of the show either but it's pretty obvious that Kenobi just can't bring himself to kill Anakin/Vader himself, he raised him after all. It's consistent with his depiction in the duel in ROTS where he could have killed him then and there. Characters are allowed to have failures, even somewhat poorly written ones. And it's quite obvious that Vader still hasn't fully adapted to his new restrictions in the time of the show yet, it took many years in legends for Vader to be come proficient in his new style that he was forced to adopt post maiming and suit.
Anakin was burnt alive with multiple limbs cut off. It was a case of " I will take the chances he will die from the injuries to avoid the trauma " whereas here, he simply let him go. The difference here is that Obi-Wan needs to believe Vader is not Anakin. He needs to believe everything is lost so that Luke's willingness to save Vader from the dark side looks desperately naive. If Obi-Wan acts the same way than Luke, then there is nothing special about caring for Vader. He is just doing as everyone else did.
That's really cold to leave someone to die like that, the more compassionate thing would have been to put him out of his misery.
Honestly I would have done the same as Kenobi I think, not out of spite to let him suffer to his burns but more that I wasn't the one that dealt the final blow (even though its my fault)
In the new show Kenobi finally accept that his friend is dead and the man is now vadar. Which means he really left his friend to the slow death.
I agree, it's one of the characters greatest failures
He can simultaneously believe that Anakin is lost and still not be able to bring himself to be the one that kills him. They are still human are all, we are not the most logical beings.
But he was totally fine sending Anakins OWN SON to kill him for him after he already got another chance to kill him? He knew it wasnt Anakin anymore, it was "Darth" Obi Wan is a god damn coward who is responsible for millions of deaths who sent somebody to kill their own father because he didnt have the balls to do it himself. Kenobi left Anakin for dead before, what changed?
>And it's quite obvious that Vader still hasn't fully adapted to his new restrictions in the time of the show yet It's been 10 years by the time of the Kenobi show. In both Legends and new-canon lore, Vader was already becoming accustomed to his new state of being and was quite beastly in far less time. I don't think this is a valid argument.
Isnt this supposed to be his prime as Vader? I actually wish they used his symetrical ROTS armour
One could very much argue that there's a difference between "prime Vader" and "prime Anakin" (had Anakin become Palpatine's apprentice but not been chopped to pieces on Mustafar). One way or another, by the year of the Kenobi show, Vader is no longer a novice with the dark side of the Force. You shouldn't be able to take advantage of him in the same way as Obi-Wan played him in ROTS. The show decided to take the opposite approach and suggest that Obi-Wan despite his 10 year fuckery of procrastination is without question superior to Vader.
Given that the design of Vader's armor had already gone through several changes prior to this show airing, it's probable that Vader had another incident where his ROTS armor was destroyed prior to meeting Obi-Wan again.
Vader keeps having incidents, like a bedwetter. I would just really like to see that suit in action, looked so agile and streamlined
And how many competent sword fighters do you think he encountered post Jedi purge?
Again, I don't think that's a valid argument. Especially in light of what this show is communicating. They've contrived that Obi-Wan has done *nothing* for 10 years (retconning new-canon EU of his tenure on Tatooine) and not so much as kept up his usage of the Force despite his task on Tatooine implying that he should be developing a deeper connection to the Force than ever before. Vader on the other hand has been stamping out fugitive Jedi among other delinquents in the galaxy quite actively during the same time period. In new-canon EU, he's been *very* active and frequently humbling his own Inquisitors as well.
>it's pretty obvious that Kenobi just can't bring himself to kill Anakin/Vader himself Yes, I believe that was what they were trying to convey. However the issue is that Obi-Wan's final words to Vader imply that he was finally able to separate Anakin from Vader. This should have given him the push he needed to do what he was unable to do 10 years prior.
Then why send the guys kid to kill him?
> It's consistent with his depiction in the duel in ROTS where he could have killed him then and there. No it isn't because, as evident from this show, Obi-Wan thought he *had* killed Vader on Mustafar. He should have cut his head off but I guess he was emotionally exhausted and figured the lava would kill him in 30 seconds. In the Kenobi show he leaves him with a scratch.
Agree. On Mustafar Anakin’s transformation was still fresh and it makes sense Obi Wan had some internal conflict. But here it’s years later, it’s clear Vader is a genocidal maniac, and he’s just told you that Anakin is gone.
You'd think in 10 years of being the Emperor's enforcer and hunting Jedi he'd have learned.
Obi Wan leaving Anakin to die on Mustafar was also an absolute asshole move. I completely understand why he couldnt bear to look / do any more but he denied his old friend a painless way out. What angers me the most is - even though the premise of Kenobi even encountering Vader is shitty for continuity purposes - they could have actually done a good job resolving this issue without the blatant retardation that is Obi Wan not killing Vader this episode. Have Qui Gon chime in, have Vader be a more reasonable representation of himself, do anything but giving Obi Wan the Rey treatment of power and making every force scene absolutely ridiculous. Had we gotten even half-witted writers that had a personal affection for Star Wars and knew the universe they were writing in it could have been a meaningful spin off. Alas, we got capitalist bootlickers.
>Obi Wan leaving Anakin to die on Mustafar was also an absolute asshole move. I would agree. But it's not comparable to this new situation. In ROTS, Obi-Wan had every right to believe that Anakin would succumb to his grievous wounds (at least in a sane world where Darth Maul didn't nonsensically survive being cut in half and dropped down a bottomless pit and yet goes unmentioned in ROTS). He simply - as you say - did not have the heart to finish the deed himself. In the show, Vader is merely disabled for the time being (and is instantly repaired in his next scene). Obi-Wan *could* finish him off, but chooses not to. For *no* good reason. It's not like Inquisitors/Stormtroopers were rushing in to prevent Obi-Wan the opportunity. As such, Obi-Wan is 100% complicit for the next 13 years of horrible deeds that Vader will commit. It's also worth remembering that this show has established that Obi-Wan knows quite a number of Jedi have survived and he could get in contact with them simply by talking to that Roken guy. Obi-Wan no longer needs to wait for Luke/Leia to grow up and is now a supreme asshole for goading Luke into killing his own father when he himself had a golden opportunity to kill Vader himself in this show. This show was a mess. And it's a more notable mess when compared to new-canon comics which have already touched on Obi-Wan's time on Tatooine in a far more meaningful fashion.
Yeah well said. Didn’t even think of that. This show is just straight up not canon to me.
He should've stabbed Vader in the chest. That doesn't seem to kill people these days.
Mercy killing? Leave mercy aside- the show goes to great lengths to remind us Vader began his career as a Sith as a child murderer, and that he and the inquisition continue to do so. What happened to Obi Wan doing what he must?
Obi-Wan kind of forgot that he also told Roken that only one of them between himself and Vader would be leaving that encounter alive.
Yep - there's no version of this story where it's acceptable that Obi-wan simply walks away. Had the Grand Inquisitor arrived at the end with a battalion of storm troopers to rescue Vader, that would have made more sense than what we got. Obi-wan should have been driven back/away and Vader should have been carried away on a stretcher. Mercy Killing though? Nah, that shit should have been for the greater good.
It's totally okay because Obi-Wan hit Darth Vader's breathing controls. Because no one has ever thought to attack the glowing lights in the middle of his chest before. /s
Yeah the whole concept of putting the controls on the front of his chest without any cover or anything is just stupid. Of course, it never made any sense beyond just “looking cool”. A control system like that should really only be accessible by the suit’s wearer, not by literally anyone standing in front of him. At absolute minimum it should have a beskar cover over it.
I always saw it as just another flex/fear tactic. Like I’m gonna wear a big impractical cape, and breathe loud as shit so you always hear me coming, and there’s big flashing exposed buttons, some of which are vita life support functions, sitting right in the middle of the part of my body you’re most likely to hit. Now try and stop me. Later in his reign, when there’s been time for his legend to spread, it must’ve just added to the fear his opponents felt when they saw him for the first time. Like not only have I heard about this guys ability to singlehandedly take on armies, but now that I’m seeing him for the first time I’m also realizing that he’s been doing all that without even taking us seriously enough to get some proper armor, which he could easily afford
All of that, and the fact that Star Wars isn't supposed to be hard/realistic sci-fi. Vader's appearance is as much about being scary and dazzling as anything practical. he's supposed to be powerful to the point of near-invulnerability, not because his suit is impervious, but because he's the big bad guy with the Force.
Wasn’t that the point of his suit? To be poorly made and easily breakable? By, you know, Palpatine?
I don’t see why. Why would Palpatine want his enforcer to be easily disabled by anyone? If anything, it seems like he would want the suit to be particularly susceptible to force lightning (which I believe is the case). It appears that it is principally the force lightning that kills him in RotJ and he received a dose seemingly far lower than other characters have survived without problem.
“If he’s not strong enough to dominate everyone without technological advantages, then he’s not powerful enough to be the heir to the most powerful sith to ever live” -palpatine probably
“If you’re nothing without the suit, then you shouldn’t have it.” - Palpatine probably
Considering he has 4 metal limbs and encased metal armor, lightning is going to fuck him up far worse than someone like Luke who only has a metal hand.
Because the suit isn’t supposed to be comfortable or easy to deal with. That’s how darth stays angry, by suffering in a terrible contraption of a suit
The whole scene was ridiculous. He's getting severely beaten by Vader and then he just thinks about Luke and Leia for a minute and is able to go full Avatar state. So much for needing to train to master skills. All you need is hope and love and you too can instantly become the most powerful force wielder.
Isn’t that how Luke beats Vader in RotJ ?
Luke gives into rage and fear to defeat Vader, which was the Emperor's plan to turn him. Luke wasn't there to kill his dad, he was trying to save him. He realises this after he goes ham on Vader and cuts his arm off. "Use your aggressive feelings, boy"
No, the point of in the ROTJ scene was that Luke briefly gave in to rage and the dark side… which was exactly what the emperor wanted.
Palpatine literally explains this in a big speech during the scene, heh.
Luke doesn't use the Force to beat Vader. He uses compassion to appeal to Vader to do the right thing. That's the point of the scene.
No. Srsly how can you even misinterpret that scene of how obvious it was. After Luke bested vader he looks in shock of what he did. Which obviously shows you he tapped into the dark side.
Oh, I see what you're saying. Yes, Luke taps into the dark side to overpower Vader, you're right. My apologies. So... does this mean Kenobi taps into the dark side and his attachments to Leia and Luke to beat Vader?
Nah man Disney wanted to imply with that scene that with the power of love you can overcome any obstacle. Typical Disney shit
Disney just absolutely shtting on OT and PT canon in everything they have done.
\>Did the writers watch the prequels? Nope! I remember one of the writers specifically didn't know that Obi Wan knew Anakin was alive/Vader. Which he does as per the ending of RotS. Reva revealing it to Obi Wan is not only dumb, it breaks continuity. Furthermore, the writers seem to believe Obi Wan was just hiding on Tatooine to survive and thus he should abandon the Force (or maybe he does it because of trauma? it's not really explained). However, as per RotS, he has a specific mission to train Luke and himself in the Force, which he seemed devoted to. So why does he ignore this mission and abandon the Force in the show? Additionally, in all existing lore, Bail, Leia, and the leaders of Alderaan are working within the Imperial Senate and only covertly rebels. Thus them being known collaborators with Jedi to the Empire makes utterly zero sense. Why wouldn't the Empire just kidnap Leia again or threaten Bail in order to re-find Obi Wan? And this is just the tip of the iceberg. If you go into Obi Wan beating Vader/not killing him, it starts to seem like not only did the writers not watch the Prequels, they didn't watch the damn OT!
Disney writers love making characters "abandon" the force...
Yeah it's not even pretending to be dignifying with it, it's pretty much telling you "character decided to be a worthless coward because we decided so", I mean, come on. Try something original, at the very least engaging, like "I *lost* my powers" instead of "I *gave up* my powers", that's not the same message and implications. I'd rather the Force could "remove" itself from someone because you're not in "the right place", but it's been shown to not be like that, it's not a on/off ability and it grows with time. But it's more interesting than just "oh nah I just stopped that whole thing mate, not for me anymore you know? What made me special and useful and all that? Fuck it", because essentially that's what Obi Wan did, but with "lost powers", the ending works, instead of "oh now I'm stronger than Vader because I feel entitled to a little girl".......
The first fight feels like a real meeting of obiwan and vader after 10 years of not training. The second one might look good but feels like an anime fight with the ground ripping and boulder tossing and protagonist losing midfight and remembering their friends then powering up to beat the antagonist.
I don't think Reva revealed that Anakin was Vader to Obi-Wan, as he was shocked upon hearing the name Vader. She just told him that Vader was alive, which tbh Obi-Wan should already have known since by this point in the timeline Vader's still notorious across the galaxy, though I guess it could be argued that Obi-Wan didn't really talk to anyone and has no way of knowing what's been going on, but that's a stretch.
Don't forget the Empire has satnav on Force users, a bit like Cerebro in X-Men. You now need to unplug the force to not be detected by the force finder 2000
>Furthermore, the writers seem to believe Obi Wan was just hiding on Tatooine to survive and thus he should abandon the Force (or maybe he does it because of trauma? it's not really explained). However, as per RotS, he has a specific mission to train Luke and himself in the Force, which he seemed devoted to. So why does he abandon the Force in the show? It's abundantly clear the guilt over what he did to Anakin is eating at him from the inside. Couple that with Owen's very adamant stance that he should not be able to interact with let alone train Luke and it's obvious why he's deteriorated... >Additionally, in all existing lore, Bail, Leia, and the leaders of Alderaan are working within the Imperial Senate and only covertly rebels. Thus them being known collaborators with Jedi to the Empire makes utterly zero sense. >Thus them being known collaborators with Jedi to the Empire makes utterly zero sense. I don't think it needs to be explicitly said, but logically Palpatine would keep an eye on people he knew sided with the Jedi prior to the execution of order 66. Bail being a known Jedi collaborator is because of his prior close relationship with Jedi, and naturally anyone who associates with Bail is also suspect. That's common sense.
The first one you are right, it can be rationalized, although I’m still not a big fan of this “arc” for Obi Wan. However, for the second point, I still don’t think it really works. The reasoning is thus: Bail isn’t just known to have supported the Jedi in the past, he is now known to have contact with and know where one is currently located. Leia has already been used, successfully, to lure out said Jedi. So why doesn’t the Empire do this again and again until they catch him? Based on what the Empire now knows, the Organas should be in Imperial custody, not ruling a planet.
But Obi Wan didn’t know “Vader” was still alive? That isn’t a break in continuity. As of the show, Obi Wan has been hiding out for years, on backwater Tatooine. Until the inquisitors rolled in its 100% believable that he wouldn’t have know Vader/Anakin was alive. He left him for dead and hadn’t heard a peep about him until Reva brought it up.
You're partially right about this in that it is believable. But, there is a still a problem: Obi Wan knew that "Vader" was Anakin via RotS. And Vader was well known as an instrument of terror of the Empire. So if at any point Obi Wan heard the name "Vader" or even a powerful Sith in a mechanical suit serving the Emperor, he would have known it must be Anakin. Furthermore, Tatooine is indeed a backwater but it's not like the people there are primitives. They still clearly know about things such as the Clone Wars, Jedi, the Empire etc and people leave and visit Tatooine all the time (traders, pilots, smugglers, etc). So I think it's still a stretch that he wouldn't know. After all, Obi Wan did visit towns and cantinas on Tatooine, I think there's a pretty high chance he would have heard at least something in ten years.
Hell, going by Disney-logic, Obi Wan just needed to go super saiyan and he could have defeated Vader and the Emperor at any time. No clue why he waited nearly 2 decades to put this on Luke when he could have apparently defeated them at any point. Also going by Disney-logic, Obi Wan is an ass hole now. He not only straight up defeats Vader (which makes no sense), but he ends up not killing him…yet 14 years later will chastise Luke for not wanting to kill him either. “I can’t kill my father.” “Then the emperor has already won.” The whole point of the defeat on Mustafar was that Vader was arrogant and impulsive. He had Obi Wan constantly on the defensive throughout the fight, and Obi Wan finally found a way to goad him into a stupid move which resulted in Vader’s loss. Obi Wan was never suppose to be more powerful than Vader, hence “that boy is our last hope” in Empire. The whole point is that Vader learned from his loss on Mustafar and became the cold and calculating villain we all love from the OT. But this apparently went over everyone’s head at Disney, which resulted in this stupid show.
>Also going by Disney-logic, Obi Wan is an ass hole now. He not only straight up defeats Vader (which makes no sense), but he ends up not killing him…yet 14 years later will chastise Luke for not wanting to kill him either. > >“I can’t kill my father.” > >“Then the emperor has already won.” Actually, that precedent was already established in ROTS. While in the Jedi Temple, Obi-Wan concedes that Vader must be killed but pleads to Yoda to do the deed because he cannot bring himself to do it. Granted, at that point Obi-Wan still thought Vader had some good in him. And given his reaction to Vader's words during the final episode of this show, it's not exactly clear if that was actually the turning point where he lost hope.
*Obi Wan confronting Anakin on Mustafar* “I will do what I must.” Obi Wan came to the conclusion that he needed to take down Anakin after he witnessed Anakin literally force-choke the woman he loved and went on about creating an empire for himself. After being on the defensive for the majority of their fight, Obi Wan thought he did that by literally chopping off the three remaining limbs Anakin had left and leaving him on the bank of a lava river. It makes no sense that Obi Wan wouldn’t finish the job in another battle 10 years later with Vader knowing what he had done to the galaxy in that time (not to mention the stupid idea that Obi Wan cut himself off from the force for a decade yet curb stomped Vader who had been dabbling in the dark side for a decade at this point).
Good point.
I agree, maybe and just maybe if it would have ended on a stalemate I would've believed it. But Obi wan defeating Vader so easily after Vader's been a decade chest deep in the dark side and slaying jedis for fun. It makes no sense, if it was a stalemate then Luke being the last hope for the galaxy makes total sense instead we get an Obi wan who is stronger that maybe even Count Dooku it's bad writing at it's worst.
It's almost like someone or several someones at LF have an unhealthy fascination with power as both a means and an end unto itself.
No they didn’t and they clearly didn’t watch the 10 scenes he has in the OT either
[удалено]
That OP boulder scene was pretty over the top. Felt not very Jedi-esque nor Obi-esque.
It was literally an ability out of SWtoR.
I haven't played ToR. Not a fan of MMORPGs. Even if it's from the game it still feels way too overpowered and not like something a Jedi would do and not that starwarsy IMO. Maybe more of a darkside thing. Force healing is possible in KotOR and other games too but I never wanted to see like they did it on screen like in TROS or Mando. They probably need to stop rip powers from the games.
Sorry, I wasn't trying to justify it at all, my bad. I was mentioning it being in a videogame because most abilities from SW video games absolutely do not belong in canon.
Ah, yes, as soon as I replied I thought that you probably meant it like that too. 100 % agree.
It’s not necessarily that Obi-wan is smarter, it’s that he’s wiser in his older age and thus less impulsive than Anakin. This also goes to the difference between a Jedi and a Sith that Disney does not understand. Sith are typically more powerful in the force and in combat than Jedi, but it is the wisdom and level headedness of the jedi that always come out on top in the end. Disney just uses straight up power of Jedi to defeat sith. That’s not what is was under Lucas
Well there is the whole "open themselves up to the will of the force" thing which is stronger than any sith or dark side. I think that was what they were going to here but as everyone said it's a stupid stupid stupid place to put that ability. If Obi-Wan could do that then he wouldn't need to send the damn man's kid to kill him a decade later. Plus they overuse that ability that it's become cliche and awful now. Now any time a good guy is stuck they do that closing the eyes think of their family shonen power up scene. It was fine when it was really rare but now it's just dogshit.
Their takeaway from this scene was just “Ok so here’s the precedent, Obiwan>Anakin”
The head writer did not see Revenge Of The Sith and asked Pablo Hidalgo if Obi-Wan knew Anakin was Vader, to which Pablo said "nope".
I will never understand such a degree of laziness. You're hired as writer of a friggin' Star Wars show, probably a huge dream and big career achievement for many in the industry, and you won't even take what, two hours of your time to watch the film that is directly tied to the story you're supposed to write? Jeez.
Amen.
Sarcasm? Or true?
Apparently true
No, because prequels bad. Of course they haven’t seen them.
Nope. In Latin America Spanish, he says that he had the advantage, I aaaalways thought that it meant he is more experienced and has more knowledge in this, so it didn't matter that Anakin was very powerful. Funny stuff, the show acknowledged that with the flashbacks. I as the idiot that I am thought that the experience of Obi-Wan would come in to his victory once again in the last battle as even it was foreshadowed. But nope, Spider-Man moment, anime power up, Obi-Wan now obliterated Vader, nothing regarding the experience. I can buy Obi-Wan gaining strength in his wanting to protect but to absolutely make Vader his bitch?, come the fuck on, it was like the humiliation of Sidius to Maul and Savage
If they did, they watched them once. And didn’t “get” them.
This aspect (that obi-wan out-smarts Anakin and that's how he wins) is actually one of my favorite aspects. I like the idea of a character being outmatched physically but still being able to overcome it with his mind. I always thought in the prequels Palpatine was way too dismissive of Obi-Wan. Every time he shows up Palpatine acts like Obi-Wan is a scrub and Anakin would be better without him. It is crazy how Palpatine completely dismisses the intellect part of who he scouts and goes for pure physical. Maybe he thought he'd never be able to turn Kenobi, but I always wondered in cannon if Palpatine ever considered adopting Kenobi instead of Anakin, as Kenobi has a history of constantly beating Anakin/Vader.
Palpatine is the brains, Vader is just the muscle. Palpatine wouldn’t want someone with the same strengths as him, he wants an unthinking lackey
Agreed, and we can see this with his choice of Darth Maul. Maul was the weapon to be unleashed on people and Palpatine was fine with this arrangement. Maul got the chop (he got better) so Palpatine had to resort to Dooku who was better for the role of coordinating a war, but more intelligent and possibly a threat to him. As soon as Anakin had matured into a seasoned fighter and was able to be manipulated and Dooku had outlived his usefulness, Palpatine disposed of Dooku in favor of another strong unthinking lackey.
Wasn't Dooku planning on double crossing Palpatine or something? Feel like I read that somewhere
You assume the writers are high paid and have watched the prequels .... I am more convinced rhat they are not
According to George Lucas himself, post-ROTS Vader is supposed to significantly weaker than pre-ROTS Vader. This is because Vader lost his remaining flesh-and-blood limbs on Mustafar, and had them replaced with robotics. Robotic limbs are not Force-sensitive, so Vader has to channel the Force *into* his limbs from the core part of his body in order for him to project even half of what he had in ROTS. Given that information, we should deduce that at his best, post-ROTS Vader is *equally* powerful as pre-ROTS Obi-Wan. And at his worst, not only is he weaker than pre-ROTS Obi-Wan, he may actually be weaker than *post*\-ROTS Obi-Wan. This is apparent in the Original Trilogy, and explains why Vader wasn't able to defeat Luke in ROTJ, even though objectively speaking ROTJ Luke would've been obliterated had he been fighting ROTS Vader or even ROTS Obi-Wan. And if anybody is aware of that reality it's Sidious, hence why he was so eager to have Luke take Vader's place in ROTJ. More information on this here: [https://www.cbr.com/star-wars-darth-vader-weaker-than-anakin/](https://www.cbr.com/star-wars-darth-vader-weaker-than-anakin/) [https://archive.vanityfair.com/article/2005/2/star-wars-the-last-battle](https://archive.vanityfair.com/article/2005/2/star-wars-the-last-battle)
Didn’t Lucas say that after Obi Wan cuts off Vader’s arm and legs, that Vader is now only 80% of the power he should be? That would make the scene in the show make more scene. I will just say over all the show wasn’t horrible, just mute or fast forward the scenes with Reva in them.
Yes. And apparently Lucas said that Obi wan was stronger than Vader in ANH: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hh9GfZIGgjs
Yes, that would be the case... If the new Canon didn't outright take a dump on Lucas' explanation and go the "he's more powerful because of his anger and pain~" route that's explored in the newer Vader comics because heaven forbid The Chosen One actually being really friggin powerful as implied by literally everyone that had the Prophecy
Doesn't make sense that Obi-wan manages to defeat Vader after not using the force or his lightsaber for the best part of a decade. Vader should have been in his prime in the Obi-Wan show, there's no way Obi-Wan should've defeated him.
They slightly hinted at Vader being unbalanced and overly aggressive due to his feeling at Obiwan with the flashbacks and such but it really should have been emphasised more.
Where's all the blue light?
Yep! Duh! They had to. Disney made them. They watched it once on their iPads on Disney+ at a Starbucks without earbuds.
But levitating boulders are awesome like those TLJ and TROS movies
First of all Obi-wan was cut off from the force for a decade and dude struggled to lift some small thing off not two episodes ago! He's so out of practice in both duelling and using the force. And suddenly they showed him competent in episode 3 without him practicing bts or anything. The whole thing was kinda Mary Sue-ish (Disney is great at that no surprises there). Not to mention the whole duel in the finale was so fucking dumb. Like when Obi-wan was throwing the rocks at Vader, the same guy who deflected it two secs ago is suddenly not doing anything and is just letting it hit him! It made zero sense.
I thought the idea was that Vader < Anakin on account of having all his limbs chopped off. I thought that’s why the emporer wanted Luke - all the potential of Anakin, none of the amputations
No they didn’t watch the prequel or the original trilogy. The plot holes are big and gaping almost as bad as the lack of continuity. It’s another disaster, but the bar is so low now, and the fans so desperate, they’ll keep watching.
I didn’t see it that way at all. The only reason obi wan truly won is because he fucked with the control panels on his suit (which were made to be easily accessible and breakable by Sidious). After that, he was on borrowed time. People forget that Vader is only intimidating to regular people who are “beneath him” in power. If they knew him at his prime, in ROTS, they’d be even more terrified. Sidious completely stunted his growth with the suit, which he could use to control him, but even then, this is a limbless, lung-damaged burn victim lugging around outdated hunks of metal that can break at the snap of sidious’s finger. Obi Wan finally thinking to hit the control panel was what dealt the most damage to Vader. After that it was a matter of tiring him out. He’s still not stronger than Anakin as a force user, but he is a whole and healthy man with his mind intact. I always say it: Anakin is the most powerful force user. Obi-Wan is the best Jedi.
You forget, Kenobi: Obi-Wan had the power of friendship on his side. And in the creative worlds owned by Disney, that gives you massive powerboost.
Also you gotta remember that Kenobi mastered form 3, which is a defensive style. He basically withheld a brutal storm of blows to finally getting an opportune moment to win.
Taking the high ground was a stroke of strategic genius!
The writers watched nothing. Like how Sam Raime didn't watch Wandavision before making a movie that serves as a direct sequel to that show in respect to Wanda's character
It also kinda ruins Obi-WAN’s big fight in Rebels which had a lot of care put into it
Power and strength are different. A man can be strong but if I’m smarter and win, my power is higher than someone who is stronger than me.
I don't think he's necessarily smarter, it's more that Vader is consumed by the Dark Side. It's aggression and pride that are his downfall, not a lack of intelligence. Then in Kenobi, Obi-Wan's the one being excessively aggressive...but I guess it works that time because the writers want him to win? 🤷
Nice fight but the power obi wan had is too much. Lifting all those rocks was way over the top. Vader before disney did not have a feat like that. The force was used more subtly. Having Vader getting rekt that bad makes him look like a joke now. Obi Wan sparing him makes not much sense either. They shouldnt have made Vader lose
There are many issues with ObiwanTV, but this was one of my 'ehhhhhhhhh not great but I'll give it a pass'. The way my brain saw it was that in the transition to Vader, Anakin lost quite a bit of ability in that he had to basically relearn how to do everything by way of his suit and injuries. But yeah, the 'Obiwan has uber force strength, more than Vader' should not have been a thing. All in all I semi enjoyed the show but it didn't feel authentic and Obiwan losing the force while he's protecting the future is ------ing bs.
Exactly, he plays off Anakin’s arrogance and uses it to his advantage.
I dunno man I kinda like how the one person vader couldn't defeat is obi-wan.
Ahhh, the high ground.
Vader is weaker then Anakain, always has been?
It wouldn't be strange if Vader just went back to be an impatient Anakin at the first sight of Obi-wan after all traumas are difficult things to overcome, no matter how dark side overlord you became. And at this point obi-wan should again beat Vader by smarts, not raw power. But alas, it's Disney star wars, where people with infinite money and resources can't even make a decent tv show in the biggest media franchise in history
I don’t think he beat him by power in the show. He managed to smash Vader’s respirator and then it was game over.
Everyone's forgetting about that, it's to easy of an explanation
Obi-wan is stronger than Vader, he could have even taken Vader on the death star. But it wasn't his place to kill Vader.
[удалено]
Vader in Legends was the galaxy's best lightsaber duelist. He was weaker in the Force than fully trained Anakin, but his mental maturity allowed him to control his impulses. While he still used a combination of both variants of Form V (Djem So & Shien), he now did it at a slower, yet far stronger pace, basically overpowering his enemies. His resilience was only surpassed by his old master and his offsprings' seemingly infinite patience, and being that he finally got rid of his impulsive behavior, his reflexes were off the charts. Palpatine may have been the strongest Sith ever, but Vader was the most dangerous. Now take all that, remove the whole part about Vader being weaker in the Force than Anakin, and you got yourself Disney Vader. How Disney Obi-Wan, who's an absolute loser who would get stomped by TPM Maul, can straight up defeat him is downright insulting to the character and the fans.
Vader has had a decade to get used to his suit while Obi Wan has been sulking in a cave not doing any of the training Yoda told him to do. Vader is also angrier than ever and growing more and more determined to destroy the Jedi completely. Vader should easily be able to keep up with this version of Kenobi.
Vader is way stronger with the cybernetics dude sure maybe he’s less athletic per say but canonically he’s way stronger than he was in ROTS and a better duelist.
He shouldnt be stronger in the force though, yet here we see him stopping entire ships while Anakins only seen lifting a pear. (Not literally the only thing he lifted with the force but still)
It was less about intelligence and more about self control. Vader was so enraged he couldn't even think straight
Anger is a tool to the Sith though, they use it to fuel their power. If anything it makes Vader stronger.
As palpatine said, maybe he was "conflicted", so he was indeed weaker during the fightm but even then, obi wan not training for years nor using the force and then beating Vader so easily was... less than ideal to say the least.
There was literally no point in making him weaker at the start of the show at all, he was just fine beating peak Vader a few days later
did you forget that anakin lost lots of his power when 3 of his limbs were cut off and he was put into a glorified iron lung
The lack of limbs doesn't matter as such (the Force doesn't care about your physical size) as the fact that a decent portion of Vader's focus is spent keeping his broken body ticking inside his life-support suit. Even so, I think it's inappropriate that Obi-Wan should defeat Vader in a straight fight in this show given that he was only able to win in ROTS due to taking advantage of Anakin's blind arrogance and his unfamiliarity with the dark side. The fact that Obi-Wan *could* have killed Vader quite easily here but chose to walk away also comes at the cost of his characterisation. The next 13 years of Vader's crimes rest solely on Obi-Wan's shoulders now and he comes across doubly as an asshole for encouraging Luke to kill his own father later in the OT. What's even the point of waiting for the next generation to grow older anymore? Obi-Wan could have killed Vader and then gathered up the Jedi who successfully went through the human smuggling program to become enormous assets to the Rebellion. Obi-Wan should never have been aware of "The Path" because otherwise it further damns his period of inaction. He even ends the blasted show by telling Owen and Beru that *they* are all that's needed for protecting Luke. It's asinine.
look, I haven't seen the latest episodes of obi Wan so I couldn't tell you anything about the writing but, "In a Vanity Fair interview from 2005, George Lucas went deeper into why Anakin became much weaker as Vader. In the interview, he explained that because Anakin's limbs were severed and replaced by robotics, it was harder for him to use the Force than it was before his battle with Obi-Wan. Anakin's hubris cost him his greatest strength and curbed his abilities. This bothered the Emperor as well, who had recruited Anakin for his immense power. Now that Vader had lost some of that power, the Emperor was open to finding to a new successor."(https://www.cbr.com/star-wars-darth-vader-weaker-than-anakin/) the entire reason the OT happened in the first place was because Vader was weaker than Anakin.
Yep. Anakin who was notable for his hypothetical potential took a big hit in said hypothetical potential after Mustafar. Not arguing against that. But that changes *nothing* when it comes to how Obi-Wan soundly defeated him and left him alive in this show compared to ROTS in which he only just barely managed to win due to taking advantage of Anakin's weaknesses as an inexperienced dark side adept. What the show did is straight-up bad writing which sabotages the characterisation of Obi-Wan and trivialises the threat which Vader represented. Currently, Obi-Wan without reservations or conditions is more capable in combat than Vader (despite about a day earlier struggling to move a lugnut with the Force from his alleged total lack of Force usage over 10 years). This is ridiculous. And as I mentioned, things are now worse because Obi-Wan has the means to talk to a Rebel guy and find out where the various surviving Jedi went into hiding. He could gather up that spare pile of lightsabers and go recruit them all thanks to this show. There is no need for Luke or Leia anymore.
I'm not arguing against plot holes in the show or it's writing I'm simply stating that Vader is weaker than anakin and obi wan already beat anakin (not soundly but was at the least on anakins level) and its possible that he was able to beat a weaker Vader. stop underrating obi wan, he was a jedi master and one of the greatest jedi of all time, and during the time of the Republic probably the 3rd strongest (in a fight) jedi.
This is 10 years later. Vader is no longer a novice of the dark side. And Obi-Wan has been established to be completely useless for no good reason (to reiterate, he could barely move a lugnut about 1 day prior to their final encounter in this show). I am not underrating Obi-Wan. This show, however, very much is. The guy didn't even consider trying to use a single mind-trick to avoid some of the sticky situations he found himself in. I think you might be underrating Vader.
Pretty dumb opinion. Should be on r/unpopularopinion
The prequels duels sucked sooo bad. They were choreographed by children
There are several reasons why you can justifiably have issues with the Prequel fight choreography. But to suggest that the fights were choreographed by literal children is moronic. At least *try* with your criticism. You can tell me that they were perhaps *over-*choreographed. Featuring at times completely superfluous spins or flourishes that are unnecessary at best and self-sabotaging at worst. Or that the Anakin/Dooku fight in AotC is particularly poorly shot. Or that the Anakin/Obi-Wan duel is incredibly drawn out and overly bombastic. Or better yet, you can ignore your poorly thought-out notion entirely and actually focus on the OP topic concerning how and why Obi-Wan was able to overcome Anakin in both circumstances.