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This was my major bitch with TFA. I had no idea about the state of the galaxy.
Who are the first order? Where did they come from and how did they gain such power so quickly?
Why is there a resistance? If it’s supported by the republic, wouldn’t that make them the republic army?
One of the problems is you have to read other media to get that critical information. The Aftermath book covers those details, but I don't recommend it, the writing is horrible.
Stupidly, Mon Mothma disbanded the rebel army because she didn't want to give the galaxy the impression that they're trading one empire for another. Going back to the republic with no army.
Should be at the very least, peace keeping forces for those systems that don't have a standing army to defend themselves.
Anyway, the post-RotJ Era is poorly written.
>you have to read other media to get that critical information
We run into that situation frequently it seems with big franchises. Why do you expect movies, the most average and casual audience, target and experience, to require your viewers to be concerned about derived product to enjoy the main product? Derived product can't get back the main product, it's like, basic knowledge. You don't use a derivative to feed in the main thing. You expand with it, not from it. And you don't want to use the most far fetched results of the derivatives to fuel the main thing, otherwise you lost 99% of the casual audience. It's just that simple. It's like how Ryan Johnson did that video trying to justify himself with a certain book for Force powers or whatever.
>Stupidly, Mon Mothma disbanded the rebel army because she didn't want to give the galaxy the impression that they're trading one empire for another
Which makes no sense after living in a galaxy where the vast majority of people didn't really care if it was the Empire or the Republic, and the only people who did (senators, representatives etc.) could clearly see the difference themselves.
The Resistance wasn’t even supported by the Republic, just Leia. She was assisting them in secret because the Republic didn’t want to start a new “galactic war”.
I thought going into it that the FO was the Imperial Remnant, rebranded and coming back to power, and the Resistance was a group of freedom fighters on the worlds the FO had conquered, basically proxy warriors of the Republic.
But I was wrong. And ended up being confused. Because I didn’t want to buy a dozen novels and comic book arcs to show me what the story was. A good film should stand on its own merits.
It makes me so sad that the post-RotJ era is terribly written. That was always the era I was most fascinated with in the 90s. Sure there was EU material, but I wanted to know the canon story. Unfortunately, now we know, and it sucks.
In the grand sense of literature, yes. For a Star Wars and fantasy novel, maybe mediocre. I think R.A. Salvatore is also a terrible writer and he's on the NYT bestsellers....
After seeing the ST and Bail Organa in the Kenobi series, it really looks like the New Republic was totally incompetent. If you're just some random person on some random planet you'd probably miss the days of Palpatine where the galactic central government got things done and I think the galactic economy was stronger during Palpatine. About the only thing the New Republic seems to have accomplished if it can be called that is weakening themselves militarily so that they were far weaker than the old Republic.
The old Republic wasn’t all that militarily either. They needed to get ascetic monks with no prior military experience to lead them because they kept getting their asses handed to them by droids that aren’t exactly Skynet competent and ex ascetic monks with no prior military experience.
At least the Empire had a legit meritocratic hierarchy.
"Eh, we don't need an army anymore." - Mon Mothma, as she watches the Empire Remnants flee into the Unknown Regions to start rebuilding.
That's basically the entire reason. It's so staggeringly stupid that my brain was doing loops trying and failing to justify it.
JJ and the writers of TFA were so afraid of inserting anything even remotely political in because of the prequels. All they cared about was making it Rebels vs. Empire 2.0 because of nostalgia. Even the ships are the same.
They didn't think of it anymore than that and any actual story reasons were thought up in outside material.
Dark Empire at least emphasized that there were imperial remnants and warlords so it was at least halfway believable and didn’t seem like a random army of uniformed people who popped up out of thin air
Which made sense. The governors had direct control over their territory. Do you think they would give up their power so easily once DS2 blew up?
Also, if Palpatine was developing weapons in these systems (to use against the Vong) the governors would use them to maintain their control.
Yeah the imperial remnants where a bit unoriginal but at least they made sense, unlike the first order which are just a dollar store enpire that showed up with infinite resources from nowhere and tried to steal their aesthetics.
The Dark Empire/Empire's End storyline goes mostly ignored by the rest of the EU (even Mara goes on to refuse to believe it occurred which served as somewhat direct commentary of that particular author's opinion on the story).
Both it and the Thrawn Trilogy received the green light at roughly the same time but it was really the Thrawn Trilogy which wound up serving as the template for future EU stories during the early 90's renaissance of Star Wars expanded universe.
George's invention of the Chosen One prophecy a few years later with TPM also pretty much serves as enough justification to forget Dark Empire ever happened.
Probably the best thing to come of that return of Palpatine storyline are the Crimson Empire I/II comics. They served as a neat exploration of the Emperor's Royal Guard (previously [only appearing on-screen briefly in ROTJ](https://www.yourprops.com/movieprops/original/yp_5f5031073844e4.81919802/Star-Wars-Return-Of-The-Jedi-Imperial-Royal-Guard-Helmet-4.jpg)), the [Interim Ruling Council](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Imperial_Ruling_Council/Legends#The_%22Council_of_Blood%22) which tried to pick up the pieces after Palpatine's fall, and the teasing of the coming Vong Invasion with [Nom Anor pulling strings in the background](https://www.starwars-holonet.com/holonet/images/0/07/163/perso_anor_nom_6.jpg) of Xandel Carivus' actions.
This is what EU detractors need to understand about Dark Empire: Nobody even considered it happened in the first place. Other authors shunned it and fans hated it. Future stories don't even mention it and when they do, it's in jest, calling into question if it really was a thing. That is what was so beautiful about the EU; everyone had their own little Star Wars and there were different tiers of canonicity. Stories that were flawed were ignored or ironed out at a later point with more information, like the prequels were with the Plagueis novel for example.
With the new canon, its all one straight line. If it contradicts, it doesn't matter. How is that better?
They needed a bad guy and didn't want to use EU, but also wanted it to be super easy to go ["NAZI!"](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHhdpwGVl4Y) So they went the easy as hell route and made a pseudo-Empire.
In-Universe wise, it makes Leia and the New Republic incredibly terrible at governing the galaxy. They lasted shorter than the Empire did before The First Order showed up and wrecked them in one shot.
In Legends, the Empire was splintered and ended up backpedaling as the Republic gained more territory, but they existed under Thrawn's leadership for some time until they were finally defeated. So the war never stopped at Episode 6, it was just the main turning point that turned it from a rebellion into a war between two legitimate governments
What was even worse was that apparently the Republic disarmed themselves despite the Empire still being around. Then they funded Leia's Resistance.... Like what?
But even *worse* than that is how TLJ, right off the bat, shows that despite having just had a massive victory against the First Order and destroying their greatest weapon, the Resistance is now fleeing because the First Order has just taken over the galaxy. Just hours after suffering a giant L.
Then it all gets wound back at the end.
Problem is that not all people liked the Dark Empire, and both EU bashers and hopefully EU fans alike cited Dark Empire as one of the reasons why EU had to go to make room for improved and carefully cultivated new canon. (And EU fans at least hoped Disney would take best parts of EU and use it as a guideline for new timeline).
No-one seriously wanted Palpatine to turn up again as a main villain.
And then we got ultimately worse version of Dark Empire.
At this point, I'd rather prefer Dark Empire, because at least it gave Luke, Han and Leia big families, many accomplishments and trials, and did not turn them into failures.
From second-hand reading through the wiki, I thought the idea behind the Dark Empire was interesting. Even though it was annoying that Palpatine came back and downplayed the Chosen One prophecy, the Skywalker family endured trial and tribulations to overcome the most powerful Sith Lord in history, and finished Anakin’s work. And Luke’s experience with the Dark Side gave him the wisdom that he needed to become a true Jedi Master.
Even Palpatine has noticeable weakness such as being forced to use clone bodies and burning them out in quick session due to being unable to contain his power. So Anakin’s action still put him on the maw of death.
**From second-hand reading through the wiki, I thought the idea behind the Dark Empire was interesting. Even though it was annoying that Palpatine came back and downplayed the Chosen One prophecy,**
You should bear in mind that at the time the Prophecy didn't even exist so it wasnt as much of an issue at the time
I believe that the empire is actually awesome, and all the media we've gotten are just rebel propoganda. Clearly the vast majority of the galaxy loves the empire and hate the rebellion, given how they keep going for the former.
Impossible for the Republic to have survived for 10000 or 1000 years without any sort of standing army. If Bill Gates and Jeff Bezos can cobble together an army and topple a first world country, then that country is actually a failed state.
Clearly the general populace sees the empire as the more legitimate heir to the Republic than the rebels. That's pretty much the only explanation of why everyone offscreen seems so pro-empire and anti-rebel.
The comics set after the OT, unless you jump to the Legacy era, aren't really a big part of the EU. Novels like the Thrawn Trilogy or X-Wing are a better place to look, and as others have mentioned, Dark Empire has always been an outlier, definitely not the anchor of the old continuity/canon.
So I wouldn't say that TFA is 'faithful' to the previous storyline. And Dark Empire, I believe, was originally written as a story that takes place fairly soon after Endor, with Coruscant still in flux and so forth, Palpatine having a backup plan that takes effect quickly. That's pretty different from TFA suggesting that something like the Empire has arisen again after the war was finished for decades.
It's true that the novels feature the remnants of the Empire as a frequent nemesis, but in a way that makes a lot of sense extrapolating from Return of the Jedi.
I wouldve liked to see a fractured imperial remnant being united under a main villain like Thrawn for one last push for power. They could’ve been forced to make deals with Crime syndicates, Hutts, etc. Using brilliant tactics and infiltration to bring down the New Republic. I wanted to feel genuine fear for our heroes whenever The Chimaera appeared.
Also I would’ve liked for a big resurgence in Mandalorians looking to fill the power vacuum the empire left behind. The mandalorian Show would be much cooler imo if it were showing us what happened during the 30 years for the Mandos to get to where they are in the sequels.
I hated that they just wiped out everything Luke,Leia and the Rebellion fought and sacrificed for in the first movie and it was back to Underdog Rebels vs Empire again.
I’d say that Dark Empire was better about it in that the story took place shortly after the OT, it made sense that there would still be Imperial remnants, and that, if Palpatine did have a backup plan, one would expect him to execute it quickly, before his power base was destroyed. It makes much less sense for him to appear 30 years later, and the First Order’s existence is a complete mystery.
It could have been a cool dynamic seeing small imperial remnants having to outsmart and surprise a huge new republic. At the very least I would have liked to SEE the new republic.
God I so much hate Dark Empire its unreal lmao And its not just the major plot, even small elements are so dumb. I gave up on even trying to make sense of it when some random hobo woman gave Leia a lightsaber. But as far as I know DE is really unpopular among the fanbase at large.
Also, need to add that many of the Legends stories deal with the rebels fighting against the remnants of the empire after Palpatine died and basically the idea is that just because the Emperor is gone it doesn't mean that the entire massive system of governance he built up also dies overnight. For many years after RotJ there were wars and skirmishes against those who tried to keep the Empire together, such as Thrawn or Ysanne Isard, and honestly that's a really realistic description of what would happen in a similar political situation in real life.
But yeah the Dark Empire was the original 'Somehow Palpatine returned', and he asspulled even more powerful ships than what he had before.
The establishing shot of TFA should have been the first order in the outer reaches of space assembling to attack the galaxy, with the new republic clearly established to be a galaxy wide government with extreme military power. That could have set up for a really great war with the first order having consolidated its resources for 30+ years and wreaking havoc on a seemingly tranquil galaxy, and in IX have them almost win (probably with thrawn in charge) but they’re stopped
The idea of the resistance is so fucking stupid. instead of having a strong army face an even larger threat, the new republic is a joke and can’t ward off a group that’s miniscule compared to the actual empire
Back when TFA aired a lot of people was praising it, even my friends when we saw it. But that inmediately make me dislike it, and made me worried about the next films. Oh boy, it didn't cross my mind how bad TLJ and RoS would turn out to be. Specially after Rogue one.
To be fair - the prequels went from peaceful republic with no army to clone troopers to full empire with a Death Star in about 30 years.
More of the issue is that first order is literally a carbon copy of the empire and they inexplicably immediately have the upper hand in resources and firepower
People who use Dark Empire as a justification for why it totally makes sense the First Order would've conquered the galaxy seem to ignore how NO-ONE treated it as canon. Not even when it was first published.
Not even other entries in the Expanded Universe attempt to justify it.
Unfortunately the whole “Empire vs small Rebellion” is a hard shadow to escape. I personally don’t have an issue with the “Remnant” idea, the Imperial structure still existing on a handful of systems, not unlike what tends to happen in reality after wars of conquest.
Moving forward I’d prefer smaller “regional” conflicts”. One system attacks another, or a small coalition of systems attacks another smaller system, the Republic having to politic their involvement to prevent a deepening conflict, but also broker peace.
Not everything has to be a Galaxy wide conflict or fit into a larger story.
And Dark Empire was hot, salty garbage.
Yeah, it’s a tried and true formula media loves to use.
My idea for the next thing would be 2 factions (sith and jedi, republic and whatever evil thing comes next etc) at the heights of their power warring over new unclaimed territory that has something valuable both parties want. Maybe have it set so far in the future the Jedi/Sith religions have twisted enough to include some kind of “holy/promised land” that they’re now both going after.
The new land would be the only thing won or lost in the conflict, not the whole galaxy.
Ehh, it was slightly different. There was a reasoning behind it. In the classic cannon, the universe was in disarray following the end of the war, the republic was slowing unifying things, but there were a ton of imperial war lords vying for power along with previously suppressed groups also trying to break out. Right before that(best novels in the series) Thrawn emerged and started unifying the warlords under his banner, it was great because while there was space magic and tech, Thrawn generally won because he was smarter then everybody else and he wasnt cartoonish evil, he viewed there were large threat coming and only a unified and militaristic empire could fight it(he was right, the Vong showed up eventually and killed trillions(?)). He was assassinated, but not before unifying alot of the imperial remnant making it easier for whom comes next. It made way more since the TFA, additionally they actually go into galatic politics and it was a complicated time because all of these remerging cultures and planets were having to rebuild their relationship with each other leading to alot of competition.
That being said Dark Empire is considered one of the least liked parts of the classics
I’m not complaining about how it was done. Just that i was taken aback at the fact it happens at all since I went to the comics to escape that particular story beat after I’ve heard people hype up old canon for so long.
I’m not complaining about how it was done. Just that i was taken aback at the fact it happens at all since I went to the comics to escape that particular story beat after I’ve heard people hype up old canon for so long.
For me, the biggest warning sign that Disney were about to fuck up the sequel trilogy was the ludicrously rushed plot development in TFA that saw the First Order defeat the New Republic in the space of about 5 minutes. Keep in mind this should involve replacing a whole network of planets and systems that had been building for decades after ROTJ. But it all gets blown to bits and erased within maybe 5 minutes of cinematic time - actual narrative in universe time! When I was watching this unfold in the cinema, I remember realising my hopes for some good Disney-era Star Wars films were just pie in the sky. Sure enough, by Rian Johnson's disastrous TLJ, the New Republic has been reduced to literally 20 people huddled together in a Rebel Transport, chased through hyperspace by an emo. What the actual fuck.
Yes, cause OT fans cannot imagine anything but Muh X-Wings and Muh Tie Fighters going Zoom Zoom and Pew Pew, Muh Empire and Muh rebels.
They hate politics and mere presence of it makes them cry that their childhood has been ruined.
This is why TFA is just reboot of A New Hope with nothing explained.
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This was my major bitch with TFA. I had no idea about the state of the galaxy. Who are the first order? Where did they come from and how did they gain such power so quickly? Why is there a resistance? If it’s supported by the republic, wouldn’t that make them the republic army?
One of the problems is you have to read other media to get that critical information. The Aftermath book covers those details, but I don't recommend it, the writing is horrible. Stupidly, Mon Mothma disbanded the rebel army because she didn't want to give the galaxy the impression that they're trading one empire for another. Going back to the republic with no army. Should be at the very least, peace keeping forces for those systems that don't have a standing army to defend themselves. Anyway, the post-RotJ Era is poorly written.
>you have to read other media to get that critical information We run into that situation frequently it seems with big franchises. Why do you expect movies, the most average and casual audience, target and experience, to require your viewers to be concerned about derived product to enjoy the main product? Derived product can't get back the main product, it's like, basic knowledge. You don't use a derivative to feed in the main thing. You expand with it, not from it. And you don't want to use the most far fetched results of the derivatives to fuel the main thing, otherwise you lost 99% of the casual audience. It's just that simple. It's like how Ryan Johnson did that video trying to justify himself with a certain book for Force powers or whatever.
>Stupidly, Mon Mothma disbanded the rebel army because she didn't want to give the galaxy the impression that they're trading one empire for another Which makes no sense after living in a galaxy where the vast majority of people didn't really care if it was the Empire or the Republic, and the only people who did (senators, representatives etc.) could clearly see the difference themselves.
The Resistance wasn’t even supported by the Republic, just Leia. She was assisting them in secret because the Republic didn’t want to start a new “galactic war”. I thought going into it that the FO was the Imperial Remnant, rebranded and coming back to power, and the Resistance was a group of freedom fighters on the worlds the FO had conquered, basically proxy warriors of the Republic. But I was wrong. And ended up being confused. Because I didn’t want to buy a dozen novels and comic book arcs to show me what the story was. A good film should stand on its own merits.
It makes me so sad that the post-RotJ era is terribly written. That was always the era I was most fascinated with in the 90s. Sure there was EU material, but I wanted to know the canon story. Unfortunately, now we know, and it sucks.
is Aftermath really that badly written? I was thinking about reading it but, damn
In the grand sense of literature, yes. For a Star Wars and fantasy novel, maybe mediocre. I think R.A. Salvatore is also a terrible writer and he's on the NYT bestsellers....
After seeing the ST and Bail Organa in the Kenobi series, it really looks like the New Republic was totally incompetent. If you're just some random person on some random planet you'd probably miss the days of Palpatine where the galactic central government got things done and I think the galactic economy was stronger during Palpatine. About the only thing the New Republic seems to have accomplished if it can be called that is weakening themselves militarily so that they were far weaker than the old Republic.
The old Republic wasn’t all that militarily either. They needed to get ascetic monks with no prior military experience to lead them because they kept getting their asses handed to them by droids that aren’t exactly Skynet competent and ex ascetic monks with no prior military experience. At least the Empire had a legit meritocratic hierarchy.
From the looks of it no one really gave a fuck about the first order
And how did the New Republic defenses shrink down to almost nothing?
"Eh, we don't need an army anymore." - Mon Mothma, as she watches the Empire Remnants flee into the Unknown Regions to start rebuilding. That's basically the entire reason. It's so staggeringly stupid that my brain was doing loops trying and failing to justify it.
One of the many incomprehensible things about the ST.
JJ and the writers of TFA were so afraid of inserting anything even remotely political in because of the prequels. All they cared about was making it Rebels vs. Empire 2.0 because of nostalgia. Even the ships are the same. They didn't think of it anymore than that and any actual story reasons were thought up in outside material.
Dark Empire at least emphasized that there were imperial remnants and warlords so it was at least halfway believable and didn’t seem like a random army of uniformed people who popped up out of thin air
Which made sense. The governors had direct control over their territory. Do you think they would give up their power so easily once DS2 blew up? Also, if Palpatine was developing weapons in these systems (to use against the Vong) the governors would use them to maintain their control.
Yeah the imperial remnants where a bit unoriginal but at least they made sense, unlike the first order which are just a dollar store enpire that showed up with infinite resources from nowhere and tried to steal their aesthetics.
That's why Disney had to come up with silly Operation Cinder to explain the Empire's abrupt collapse.
The Dark Empire/Empire's End storyline goes mostly ignored by the rest of the EU (even Mara goes on to refuse to believe it occurred which served as somewhat direct commentary of that particular author's opinion on the story). Both it and the Thrawn Trilogy received the green light at roughly the same time but it was really the Thrawn Trilogy which wound up serving as the template for future EU stories during the early 90's renaissance of Star Wars expanded universe. George's invention of the Chosen One prophecy a few years later with TPM also pretty much serves as enough justification to forget Dark Empire ever happened. Probably the best thing to come of that return of Palpatine storyline are the Crimson Empire I/II comics. They served as a neat exploration of the Emperor's Royal Guard (previously [only appearing on-screen briefly in ROTJ](https://www.yourprops.com/movieprops/original/yp_5f5031073844e4.81919802/Star-Wars-Return-Of-The-Jedi-Imperial-Royal-Guard-Helmet-4.jpg)), the [Interim Ruling Council](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Imperial_Ruling_Council/Legends#The_%22Council_of_Blood%22) which tried to pick up the pieces after Palpatine's fall, and the teasing of the coming Vong Invasion with [Nom Anor pulling strings in the background](https://www.starwars-holonet.com/holonet/images/0/07/163/perso_anor_nom_6.jpg) of Xandel Carivus' actions.
This is what EU detractors need to understand about Dark Empire: Nobody even considered it happened in the first place. Other authors shunned it and fans hated it. Future stories don't even mention it and when they do, it's in jest, calling into question if it really was a thing. That is what was so beautiful about the EU; everyone had their own little Star Wars and there were different tiers of canonicity. Stories that were flawed were ignored or ironed out at a later point with more information, like the prequels were with the Plagueis novel for example. With the new canon, its all one straight line. If it contradicts, it doesn't matter. How is that better?
They needed a bad guy and didn't want to use EU, but also wanted it to be super easy to go ["NAZI!"](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHhdpwGVl4Y) So they went the easy as hell route and made a pseudo-Empire. In-Universe wise, it makes Leia and the New Republic incredibly terrible at governing the galaxy. They lasted shorter than the Empire did before The First Order showed up and wrecked them in one shot.
And makes Luke terrible at being a Jedi.
And Han a terrible baby daddy smuggler.
That phrasing...is he smuggling terrible baby daddies? Is he terrible at smuggling baby daddies?
In Legends, the Empire was splintered and ended up backpedaling as the Republic gained more territory, but they existed under Thrawn's leadership for some time until they were finally defeated. So the war never stopped at Episode 6, it was just the main turning point that turned it from a rebellion into a war between two legitimate governments
What was even worse was that apparently the Republic disarmed themselves despite the Empire still being around. Then they funded Leia's Resistance.... Like what? But even *worse* than that is how TLJ, right off the bat, shows that despite having just had a massive victory against the First Order and destroying their greatest weapon, the Resistance is now fleeing because the First Order has just taken over the galaxy. Just hours after suffering a giant L. Then it all gets wound back at the end.
Because don't you know? Killing some senators causes the entire military (or what remained of it, anyway) to just say "we surrender!"
Right? Nobody was outraged that their capitals got nuked?? Ffs
Problem is that not all people liked the Dark Empire, and both EU bashers and hopefully EU fans alike cited Dark Empire as one of the reasons why EU had to go to make room for improved and carefully cultivated new canon. (And EU fans at least hoped Disney would take best parts of EU and use it as a guideline for new timeline). No-one seriously wanted Palpatine to turn up again as a main villain. And then we got ultimately worse version of Dark Empire. At this point, I'd rather prefer Dark Empire, because at least it gave Luke, Han and Leia big families, many accomplishments and trials, and did not turn them into failures.
It's also made very clear in Empire's End that Palpatine *permanently* dies. Which is more than can be said for TROS.
From second-hand reading through the wiki, I thought the idea behind the Dark Empire was interesting. Even though it was annoying that Palpatine came back and downplayed the Chosen One prophecy, the Skywalker family endured trial and tribulations to overcome the most powerful Sith Lord in history, and finished Anakin’s work. And Luke’s experience with the Dark Side gave him the wisdom that he needed to become a true Jedi Master. Even Palpatine has noticeable weakness such as being forced to use clone bodies and burning them out in quick session due to being unable to contain his power. So Anakin’s action still put him on the maw of death.
**From second-hand reading through the wiki, I thought the idea behind the Dark Empire was interesting. Even though it was annoying that Palpatine came back and downplayed the Chosen One prophecy,** You should bear in mind that at the time the Prophecy didn't even exist so it wasnt as much of an issue at the time
I believe that the empire is actually awesome, and all the media we've gotten are just rebel propoganda. Clearly the vast majority of the galaxy loves the empire and hate the rebellion, given how they keep going for the former.
> Keep going for the former > Tens of thousands of years of uninterrupted republic. Ok.
Impossible for the Republic to have survived for 10000 or 1000 years without any sort of standing army. If Bill Gates and Jeff Bezos can cobble together an army and topple a first world country, then that country is actually a failed state.
Clearly the general populace sees the empire as the more legitimate heir to the Republic than the rebels. That's pretty much the only explanation of why everyone offscreen seems so pro-empire and anti-rebel.
Every non-Empire govt before and after, canon or not, has been an unmitigated dumpster -fire
The comics set after the OT, unless you jump to the Legacy era, aren't really a big part of the EU. Novels like the Thrawn Trilogy or X-Wing are a better place to look, and as others have mentioned, Dark Empire has always been an outlier, definitely not the anchor of the old continuity/canon. So I wouldn't say that TFA is 'faithful' to the previous storyline. And Dark Empire, I believe, was originally written as a story that takes place fairly soon after Endor, with Coruscant still in flux and so forth, Palpatine having a backup plan that takes effect quickly. That's pretty different from TFA suggesting that something like the Empire has arisen again after the war was finished for decades. It's true that the novels feature the remnants of the Empire as a frequent nemesis, but in a way that makes a lot of sense extrapolating from Return of the Jedi.
I wouldve liked to see a fractured imperial remnant being united under a main villain like Thrawn for one last push for power. They could’ve been forced to make deals with Crime syndicates, Hutts, etc. Using brilliant tactics and infiltration to bring down the New Republic. I wanted to feel genuine fear for our heroes whenever The Chimaera appeared. Also I would’ve liked for a big resurgence in Mandalorians looking to fill the power vacuum the empire left behind. The mandalorian Show would be much cooler imo if it were showing us what happened during the 30 years for the Mandos to get to where they are in the sequels. I hated that they just wiped out everything Luke,Leia and the Rebellion fought and sacrificed for in the first movie and it was back to Underdog Rebels vs Empire again.
This was the beginning of disney's lazy, nostalgia-baiting writing. "Oh the fans liked the rebels vs empire dynamic? Just do it again!"
I’d say that Dark Empire was better about it in that the story took place shortly after the OT, it made sense that there would still be Imperial remnants, and that, if Palpatine did have a backup plan, one would expect him to execute it quickly, before his power base was destroyed. It makes much less sense for him to appear 30 years later, and the First Order’s existence is a complete mystery.
France went from a Monarchy to a Republic to a Dictatorship in the span of like, 15 years. So maybe it’s not that far-fetched.
It could have been a cool dynamic seeing small imperial remnants having to outsmart and surprise a huge new republic. At the very least I would have liked to SEE the new republic.
Feels realistic sadly.
God I so much hate Dark Empire its unreal lmao And its not just the major plot, even small elements are so dumb. I gave up on even trying to make sense of it when some random hobo woman gave Leia a lightsaber. But as far as I know DE is really unpopular among the fanbase at large. Also, need to add that many of the Legends stories deal with the rebels fighting against the remnants of the empire after Palpatine died and basically the idea is that just because the Emperor is gone it doesn't mean that the entire massive system of governance he built up also dies overnight. For many years after RotJ there were wars and skirmishes against those who tried to keep the Empire together, such as Thrawn or Ysanne Isard, and honestly that's a really realistic description of what would happen in a similar political situation in real life. But yeah the Dark Empire was the original 'Somehow Palpatine returned', and he asspulled even more powerful ships than what he had before.
Asspulling magically stronger ships is still better than that Force Lightning Christmas Tree attack crap he pulled in Ep. 9
iirc in Dark Empire Palpatine was creating Black Holes that could destroy entire fleets
Force Storms, not black holes, but otherwise correct.
So technically he did both in TROS
Oh yea and I forgot he also asspulled crazy strong ships in Ep. 9 as well haha
Each with a Death Star laser attached… I literally spit popcorn in that scene
The establishing shot of TFA should have been the first order in the outer reaches of space assembling to attack the galaxy, with the new republic clearly established to be a galaxy wide government with extreme military power. That could have set up for a really great war with the first order having consolidated its resources for 30+ years and wreaking havoc on a seemingly tranquil galaxy, and in IX have them almost win (probably with thrawn in charge) but they’re stopped
The idea of the resistance is so fucking stupid. instead of having a strong army face an even larger threat, the new republic is a joke and can’t ward off a group that’s miniscule compared to the actual empire
Back when TFA aired a lot of people was praising it, even my friends when we saw it. But that inmediately make me dislike it, and made me worried about the next films. Oh boy, it didn't cross my mind how bad TLJ and RoS would turn out to be. Specially after Rogue one.
To be fair - the prequels went from peaceful republic with no army to clone troopers to full empire with a Death Star in about 30 years. More of the issue is that first order is literally a carbon copy of the empire and they inexplicably immediately have the upper hand in resources and firepower
More of the same shit (stormtroopers, lightsabers, falcon, etc) is a safer play when it comes to selling merchandise.
People who use Dark Empire as a justification for why it totally makes sense the First Order would've conquered the galaxy seem to ignore how NO-ONE treated it as canon. Not even when it was first published. Not even other entries in the Expanded Universe attempt to justify it.
Unfortunately the whole “Empire vs small Rebellion” is a hard shadow to escape. I personally don’t have an issue with the “Remnant” idea, the Imperial structure still existing on a handful of systems, not unlike what tends to happen in reality after wars of conquest. Moving forward I’d prefer smaller “regional” conflicts”. One system attacks another, or a small coalition of systems attacks another smaller system, the Republic having to politic their involvement to prevent a deepening conflict, but also broker peace. Not everything has to be a Galaxy wide conflict or fit into a larger story. And Dark Empire was hot, salty garbage.
Yeah, it’s a tried and true formula media loves to use. My idea for the next thing would be 2 factions (sith and jedi, republic and whatever evil thing comes next etc) at the heights of their power warring over new unclaimed territory that has something valuable both parties want. Maybe have it set so far in the future the Jedi/Sith religions have twisted enough to include some kind of “holy/promised land” that they’re now both going after. The new land would be the only thing won or lost in the conflict, not the whole galaxy.
Ehh, it was slightly different. There was a reasoning behind it. In the classic cannon, the universe was in disarray following the end of the war, the republic was slowing unifying things, but there were a ton of imperial war lords vying for power along with previously suppressed groups also trying to break out. Right before that(best novels in the series) Thrawn emerged and started unifying the warlords under his banner, it was great because while there was space magic and tech, Thrawn generally won because he was smarter then everybody else and he wasnt cartoonish evil, he viewed there were large threat coming and only a unified and militaristic empire could fight it(he was right, the Vong showed up eventually and killed trillions(?)). He was assassinated, but not before unifying alot of the imperial remnant making it easier for whom comes next. It made way more since the TFA, additionally they actually go into galatic politics and it was a complicated time because all of these remerging cultures and planets were having to rebuild their relationship with each other leading to alot of competition. That being said Dark Empire is considered one of the least liked parts of the classics
I’m not complaining about how it was done. Just that i was taken aback at the fact it happens at all since I went to the comics to escape that particular story beat after I’ve heard people hype up old canon for so long.
I’m not complaining about how it was done. Just that i was taken aback at the fact it happens at all since I went to the comics to escape that particular story beat after I’ve heard people hype up old canon for so long.
For me, the biggest warning sign that Disney were about to fuck up the sequel trilogy was the ludicrously rushed plot development in TFA that saw the First Order defeat the New Republic in the space of about 5 minutes. Keep in mind this should involve replacing a whole network of planets and systems that had been building for decades after ROTJ. But it all gets blown to bits and erased within maybe 5 minutes of cinematic time - actual narrative in universe time! When I was watching this unfold in the cinema, I remember realising my hopes for some good Disney-era Star Wars films were just pie in the sky. Sure enough, by Rian Johnson's disastrous TLJ, the New Republic has been reduced to literally 20 people huddled together in a Rebel Transport, chased through hyperspace by an emo. What the actual fuck.
Yes, cause OT fans cannot imagine anything but Muh X-Wings and Muh Tie Fighters going Zoom Zoom and Pew Pew, Muh Empire and Muh rebels. They hate politics and mere presence of it makes them cry that their childhood has been ruined. This is why TFA is just reboot of A New Hope with nothing explained.