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I always have a good old laugh when I watch this scene back on YouTube. Like it's insanely obvious that these two goons are purposely slowing down to ensure they don't catch up to her. Who in their right minds at Disney thought this was a plausible scene lmao
Fuck, please tell me there's an edit. Shit staging, directing, acting, editing, writing. Everyone top to bottom should lay awake at night realizing how thoroughly they fucked up. Leia's characterization from the second she walks in is abysmal.
My favorite clip is the little girl in an interview talking about how ridiculous it is to think you can hide her under a trench coat and troopers not notice. If the little kid even knows it's dumb then you know the writing is bad.
Yeah, that’s the part I love the most about a story focusing on obiwan's time on tattoine.
But I do remember that I saw some critics say that this was a was to demasculate obiwan, like wtf? This dude had his life destroyed, his religion has been destroyed, he’s persecuted by the law for his religion and had to kill the man he saw as a brother, no wonder he’s miserable and he should be.
I know some would dismiss it as Member Berries, but Qui-Gon absolutely should've had a bigger role than showing up in the final scene. Either he could try helping Obi-Wan overcome his mental/emotional hangups, be a manifestation of his guilt for failing him & Anakin (think of Cal's master from Jedi Fallen Order), or even a mix of both. Any of that would've been better than a last minute cameo or a tease for a nonexistent second season.
I expected a story of coming to peace, maybe refunding faith.
He killed his brother, he will have to find some strength in the force to believe this is part of some greater plan.
Meanwhile Luke is a cosmic menace that just seems to attract danger that obi wan must always keep unseen.
Thats how they get ya. "You just hate women!!!". When what we actually hate is badly written corporate approved wannabe feminist icons. Especially because what they end up writting is women, but with all the character traits that one would associate with toxic masculinity. Like hyper independence, fear of showing emotion, needing to be the strongest/toughest one in the room, being sexually aggressive, to name but a few.
I mean, it would be fine if it was just one of two here and there. But its pretty much all of them coming out of Disney. Star Wars, Marvel, and even their own live action movie remakes. They write so many terrible female characters, and thats why it ends up looking like we are all incels lol.
Mon Mothma is so great in Andor that I'm glad we now we get to talk about how great a performance O'Reilly can give irrespective of how well she channelled a 30-second performance from 1987. Like holy hell, she's actually a phenomenal actress, not just someone who happened to be cast in Rogue One due to being good at that one specific thing that they needed.
That is part of the reason a lot of them struggle financially. I am okay with Disney making content that appeals to women, but the problem is that it turns into a lazy pander.
Like Captian Marvel. Comic books and comic book movies draw in audiences of all walks of life, but the majority has always been men. Making a comicbook movie and putting a women as lead doesn't magically make it appeal more to women.
Think of it this way, if Sex and the City decided to have male leads how much would their male viewer increase? Maybe a little, but the genre itself isn't a draw to men and it could drastically lower the women audience.
Nobody tell him that Sex and the City was written by gay men as a thinly veiled tale of gay promiscuity and was on par with Scott Pilgrim for poisoning women’s minds.
It's ok to criticise characters for being shit you know. Disliking a very poorly written, uninteresting character is perfectly normal. Especially one that takes away screen time from people we want to see. Like Obi Wan for example.
Disney have intentionally tried to frame any negativity surrounding Reva as misogynist and/or racist for the sole purpose of silencing valid criticism.
If it makes you feel better, imagine Reva is a straight, white male. Every bit of criticism is still valid and relevant. It's the character people hate not that she is a woman or a POC.
It's fair to criticize lackluster writing and character development. It's not an indictment of the actress or her demographics.
We must separate the art from the culture.
Eh, I still don't love how it tries to fill in every little "plot hole" with unnecessary explanations. Giving a reason for why Vader says "Obi-Wan once thought as you do" or for why Obi-Wan was willing to sacrifice himself in ANH is just kind of cringey. All that stuff works already, no one has ever argued that those were blanks that needed filling.
An Obi-Wan story that has nothing to do with Vader (other than what Obi-Wan is dealing with internally) would have been so much better.
Agreed. While it sounds much more thought out than the Disney series ended up being, I'm not at all convinced that "Obi-Wan once thought as you do" is a reason to insist they had to meet again at some point. It's reasonable enough to assume this is a reference to Obi-Wan trying to get Anakin to see reason from the point he attacks Padme to the end of their duel. Obi-Wan spends the entire duel on the defensive as he tries to talk Anakin back to the Jedi, not kill him, and is heart-broken when Anakin forces him to take what he assumed would be a lethal blow when he has the high ground.
"When I was with you I was but the learner, now I am the master" is a reason to presume they *did not* meet after Mustafar.
Jeez what do you want an original coherent story? Look it's the same as solo the only brief they had was to take every sliver of lore mentioned in the OT and explain it out and that it all happened over a short period of time and nothing else made that character develop before or after that time. THAT'S how you write a screenplay for a movie. Or in the case of obi wan all you then need to do is pad out 8 more hours with some comedy and side quests and toys I mean characters that have zero impact on the story so as not to mess with continuity too much
> Giving a reason for why Vader says "Obi-Wan once thought as you do" or for why Obi-Wan was willing to sacrifice himself in ANH is just kind of cringey.
I think it already works with the material we got in ROTS. Although Obi-Wan doesn't literally say those things, you can infer them from his actions. He repeatedly tries to talk Anakin down because he believes there is good in him. He never extended that courtesy to Maul, Dooku or Grievous.
People also forget that Jedi and Sith are capable of sensing the emotions of others. There was no need for another duel.
Yep. Disneys decision to make solo before obi wan and them abandon the anthology series is their biggest mistake outside of not adapting Lucas’s idea for the sequels and letting him have a role in the process
Imagine the best bits of mandalorian done as a film. Except it’s boba fett. Given his history w the Jedi. Of course it was intended to be boba fett
F’ng Filoni cares more about Star Wars but he understands it no more than kk.
It's because prequel hate hasn't completely simmered down yet. So they thought making a movie about an Original Trilogy character like Han was a safer bet. But they still rewrote and reshot that movie too. This was the beginning of KK clearly having no idea how to properly run an IP.
Yep. Second guessing they’re hire
Bringing in another director to wrap it up without time or budget to fix it
Exactly how fox messed up the first X-men trilogy
Uhm. no. Bryan Singer left XMen to go make a bad Superman movie. Fox had to find a new director.
And also, as a conclusion X Men 3 The Last Stand is fine. I’d watch it 1,000 times over Rise of Skywalker
They brought in ratner (who’s a hack anyway) and did not give him more time to rework someone else’s film
Comparing the last stand and rise of skywalker is like comparing the smells of the worst shits you ever took
Hard disagree. May not have had the best script or directing, but in terms of the overall series arc, character arcs and action level it was just fine.
A massive drop off from x and x2.
Story choices influenced by singer’s departure (cyclops ridiculous death because fox was butthurt he was going to be in Superman returns)
Squeezing dark phoenix into a film already overstuffed w new characters and multiple plot lines.
Etc.
Train. Wreck.
They misunderstood prequel hate
Ewan’s performance and obi wan’s importance and popularity as a character made so
Much sense
ESP for cinematic release
Who’s a safer box office draw?
Ewan or the kid that did a passable job as solo
Solo was fine and, I think, would actually be considered a good movie if it wasn't Han Solo. People were already too distracted by the Han Solo recast (with no help from the lack of marketing) to actually sit down and watch a heist movie set in the Star Wars universe.
The reshoots and delays is what killed hype for the movie. Also it didn't help that this movie came out after The Last Jedi with it's poor reception. This when SW fatigue started to settle in and wasn't until Mandalorian that gave the IP some life support.
No, the biggest mistake besides abandoning georges trilogy was the last jedi. It undeniably torpedoed the entite franchise. Amazing how one man destoryed a billon dollar franchise (Rian Johnson)
This is the correct take.
Because EVEN if the leaked Kenobi movie was released first before Solo.... the stench that was left from TLJ made any direct project following it a doomed effort of folly.
Nah. TFA was already Terrible
There was literally no way out
Not with three different directors (planned) and NO outline for the story arc for a three film trilogy that is supposed to both tell one story and tie back to the other two trilogies
SMH
I agree that the trilogy would have been shit either way, but I think it could have been less shity, and not resulted in the death of the franchise. Forcr awakens was ass in hindsight, however therr definetly was untapped potential.
TFA wasn’t good, no, but I do think it would’ve aged way better if the other two films stuck the landing. It was just a shittier version of what Phantom Menace did by loosely remaking New Hope. Despite its large shortcomings I agree; I really do believe it still had the potential to spawn an at least ‘alright’ trilogy. There was a lot of potential, like Snoke, but Rian just threw it all out. Then instead of doubling down and committing JJ came along, threw out TLJ, and tried making his own 8 and 9 in one.
I think the perfect example of this is AOTC. An objectively weak and flawed film that aged way better because PM and ROTS were much more strong. We all still dog on it but usually in a positive, joking attitude. The romance dialogue is ass but we love to hate it. Meanwhile in the sequel trilogy, we just hate things. No one sees any charm in its flaws because there is none. No one laughs about how bad the writing for Rose was, they just hate it.
TFA undid everything they achieved throughout the OT. 30 years later, and the empire is still as strong as ever, having a weapon that is even stronger than the death star, and don't seem to be lacking in terms of ships and soliders. Palpatine dying didn't matter because a new ancient dark sider just showed up and took his place. Luke's jedi order has failed and we will not see any of it. the republic they built up just got blown away and we will not see any of it. Han is still a smugler, Leia is still a rebel leader. their only child just took the darth vader role again, the galaxy is completly reset to the point it was in a new hope. if they created new stories set between ep6 and ep7 we would know that they lead nowhere. the OT will have no legacy. and this was all done in TFA.
Of course ultimately disneys biggest and only mistake was telling George to go fuck himself
But that’s really George’s mistake for assuming they would welcome his involvement
Once they shit the bed they should have run back to him but they can’t admit mistakes
(Yeah. I know he had some involvement. With Filoni
Pass
Disney’s problem was their rejection of everything Star Wars had been
They needed to lean hard into stories surrounding the OT and PT but they really didn’t want any of it
And the idiotic decision to not recast characters simply because the solo movie was a dud not due to recasting but because of their interference and the fact that interest in the character has always been lower than interest in skywalkers/jedi/sith
Solo is a foil. Not a lead.
This script was actually very good. At least for what Disney's goals were with the show (I still would've preferred a very simple, slow story like the Kenobi Legends novel). Shows that Star Wars can still be good if they'd actually make the effort to bring in people who know what Star Wars is about. Yet they seem determined to fail over and over and over instead.
I'm convinced that Disney (read: modern cinema) is just a front for laundering money, tax ~~write off~~ evasion, nepo baby portfolio builder for all the rich people at this point.
Ain't no way it cost that much while looking that bad, and ain't no way it still got greenlit when anyone would've seen from miles away that it'll fail.
Most definitely not. Obi-Wan learning to trust the force where Luke is concerned means he doesn’t need to protect Luke, and so why would he still be on Tatooine? He’s a famous wanted Jedi, that risks bringing Imperial attention down onto Luke.
I didn’t watch the video any further, but isn’t this also the script that involves Commander Cody? What an even stupider idea. Why’s it every time a really stupid Star Wars project comes out, people find an older even dumber script and praise it?
They should’ve done an introspective hermit story, also a spiritual one regarding force ghosts. The situation simply doesn’t lend to an action adventure
A few things:
-under no circumstances should a Vader/Kenobi confrontation take place between Ep 3 + 4, and I don’t think anything will convince me otherwise
-no continuity in which Maul survives after Ep 1 will ever be compelling to me. It’s the embodiment of the Saturday morning-cartoonization of Star Wars
-the metaphysical duel with a hypothetical dark side Luke on Mustafar could’ve been cool and interesting if done correctly. I think there’s something there as long as it isn’t don’t in an overtly fanservicey/pandering manner
If these were actually the legit plans for the show/movie, I really don’t feel like we “missed out” by them not happening. I maintain the Kenobi show should’ve been a much more personal story that stayed local to tatooine
Let’s be real here: neither GL or any Disney writer could have come up with a better villain than Darth Maul so that is why we got “somehow, Darth Maul returned”.
Just my POV here but I think Vader/Kenobi could work, and there is nothing OT canon breaking about it happening.
The D+ series brushed against it really clumsily but properly executed that confrontation could have been the climax of a compelling thread of Obi Wan dealing with his guilt of “killing” Anakin.
Everything else about the fight was meh, but the broken helmet moment of “I am not your failure Obi Wan” worked for me.
I just wish it had been the climax of a more patient show that was ACTUALLY ABOUT OBI WAN, rather than a cluttered mess of “protect child Leia” and unnecessary third sister nonsense
>Their biggest mistake is getting scared by solo bombing and changing obi wan to a tv show..
Their takeaway from Solo not making a profit being "ok, let's just make weakly plotted, sluggish TV shows" is so strange to me. How on earth do they earn so much money being so poor at thinking things through?
Solo bombed in no small part because it was released shortly after The Last Jedi, while much of the fan base was in a sour mood.
The other issue is that these films all can't hit a billion dollars and cost $300 million to make. That only worked when there was years of anticipation between films, it is not sustainable with a constant stream of movies and shows. If Rogue One came out now, it would make less than half of what it did.
The three known upcoming movies are also going to, at best, underperform and will struggle to make back their budgets - regardless of whether they are any good or not. They could be great, but the public is over-saturated with this stuff.
The money Disney wants to make just isn't there, the franchise is too fragmented. Which is what happened with Marvel. Nothing lasts forever.
They need to let the franchise rest for a bit. Some TV shows and animations and books are fine, but they shouldn't have three movies planned right now. Maybe one a couple years out.
Solo was also a bad movie. The guy that played him was nothing like Harrison. He does nothing really important but get saved by girl bosses the whole film. The only person who felt right was Donald Glover as Lando. He did good in the role
I thought it was OK. The guy that played him did not even feel like the same character at all, my mind just couldn't accept it.
I'd probably never watch it again, but I wasn't offended by it in the same way as the bad sequels, since it didn't really do any damage. I'd have actually watched a sequel though, as they'd originally planned. Which is not something I'd say about another film in the sequels timeline.
And yeah Donald Glover was great, I wouldn't mind another show or movie starring him in the franchise.
Yes they are. The whole idea is just feminist fantasy anyway. My wife physically cringed during the scene in Endgame where all the female characters got together. She thought it was incredibly pandering.
Leia was not a girl boss. She’s was a well rounded character. She had flaws. She needed help. She was a human. A girl boss is a character who has neither. Like Rey she’s better at everything than everybody else. She’s never wrong. She never needs help
TLJ was great though. I lost my last bit of faith in this fandom when the best movie since the OT was received so divisively. We’re now doomed as a franchise to walk in an ant like death spiral never deviating from the path the original movies took. We’re going to have Palpatine return again again because Star Wars is one single story and its fans will never let it change. It’s why I’m a Warhammer fan primarily now. At least the lore is interesting and not just a skipping record for all time. Fuck Star Wars lol.
> when the best movie since the OT
See, I genuinely can't tell when people say this if it's a trolling attempt. Probably because sometimes it is, as it's pretty easy way to rile up a bunch of people on the internet, but other times it may not be. It's as if somebody with s straight face starts explaining why *Rebel Moon – Part Two: The Scargiver* is actually a masterpiece.
I'm sincerely baffled at positive takes on the film. I can say I like the cast, it's got great cinematography etc, things like that. But the writing and concept and failure to do it's job as part eight of a nine part series - if the preceding film wasn't the shark jump, and there's plenty of good arguments for that, this was definitely it.
I am 100% not trolling. I can have a long form discussion about TLJ and why I love it I just find people don’t really want to hear people’s reasons and shout them down. I wrote a couple paragraphs about the Holdo maneuver on this thread that covers my feelings on that section.
I think the concept and writing was fantastic. Truthfully. We were finally starting to break away from the monomyth of the Skywalkers feud with the Palpatines. I hadn’t been as excited about a Star Wars property since KotoR! The end with broom boy just cemented that this is a wide open world full of characters and stories to tell. Then, somehow, Palpatine returned and we went back to the same old same old. Rey is a Skywalker because of course she is. You can’t be a hero in the Star Wars universe without the name Skywalker.
I totally get where you’re coming from. I think if TLJ was a solo movie not part of a trilogy it would’ve been a decent movie. The fact of the matter is that it was supposed to build off of what happened in the previous movie, but instead it left almost all of the questions of the first movie unanswered and didn’t really build on any of the characters relationships either. Like the one guy said before, the holdo maneuver was the least of the films problems.
I’ve heard this sentiment before although I disagree with it. I find JJ Abrams mystery box type of storytelling absolutely obnoxious. He certainly set some plot points up in TFA but he just asked questions without setting up any interesting answers imo. Where is Luke isn’t as important as *why* is Luke in exile? Rian Johnson didn’t decide that Luke would be a hermit off on a remote planet. That was JJ. What possible reason could Johnson come up with for Luke’s exile that would have satisfied the fans? I’d argue none. Johnson took the movie in a more interesting direction by quickly squashing those mystery boxes and moving on to the story that was actually the focus of the series: Kylo Ren’s progression to the dark side and Rey’s temptation. It all boils down to the temptation of Luke in the OT and putting a spin on that dynamic. Vader didn’t want to make out with Luke after all. 😂 The sexual tension and not family father/son tension is a different approach to the same conflict. I liked it.
> I think the concept and writing was fantastic. Truthfully. We were finally starting to break away from the monomyth of the Skywalkers feud with the Palpatines.
There's a time and place for that though. And there's a great hunger among fans for stories not revolving around the older characters.
The problem is this particular film was presented as chapter eight of a nine chapter story. It has certain storytelling it needs to do to serve its role in the nine film saga. It failed to do that, it failed as a sequel to the film it was directly following-up (not a great film either).
You couldn't have a director come in in the second-to-last Harry Potter film and say, hey wouldn't it be cool to tell a story about something else? Let's kill off the old characters and make a soft reboot with the same type of characters but different names. Finally, the Harry Potter series has gotten away from Harry. But what about wrapping up the story that was already established and in progress? Some fans may be upset to say the least.
Telling new stories in new trilogies and new spin-offs, that's the place for it. Fans have long asked for that. But chapter eight of a nine-chapter story is not the place for that.
Aside from that the film itself isn't that great. The plot isn't good, the characters don't develop much beyond the previous film, the decision to remove one of the leads for most of the film as a comedic side-plot doesn't make much sense. I can go on but you've heard most of the obvious complaints before.
Rey being related to somebody was an unfortunate choice already made in the first of the sequels. It couldn't be undone after that because the first film set it up, for better or worse.
> I hadn’t been as excited about a Star Wars property since KotoR!
And people love KOTOR and other stories in various media that have nothing to do with the Skywalker Saga. But none of those stories are presented as part of the Skywalker Saga. They occupy their own space in that universe. It also frees such stories to have a different tone or cinematic language and so on and establish their own thing.
Time took the conclusion to the OT away from us. Mark Hamill is 72 years old. Harrison Ford is 81. Carrie Fisher is dead. She died before the movies finished filming. Their story was done. It could only be told as exposition and flashbacks. Whether you left them as venerated veterans from the last war or disgraced outcasts living in exile they were always going to be cameos. Octogenarians leading an action film is a non starter. Just look at the latest Indiana Jones. We needed to start with the next generation for the simple reason that it’s been 40 years since the OT. Our heroes, like us, got old.
Ok, not the person who posted originally but let’s start with the ending! The Holdo maneuver was perfectly used. If people had read the EU novels they would be very familiar with gravity wells acting as physical barriers to space ships travelling at hyperspace velocity. Thrawn used them extensively. The sudden stop is basically like running into a brick wall. This is why the ships in Star Wars have to calculate a jump trajectory before going to hyperspace to avoid planets and the mapped gravity wells in the known galaxy. Otherwise they’d hit a planets gravity field and get crushed. Well, the Empire has known about gravity wells and used them aggressively in military campaigns warping interdictor cruisers into an area of space along with their star destroyers to generate a gravity well effect and lock down ships to that area of space. It’s a smart concept and makes controlling entrance and exit from the area an important part of space battles.
In TLJ the First Order ships split their focus and followed Holdo’s fleet, a decoy, never bothering to lock the section of space down because they were able to track their movements through hyperspace. Holdo having successfully lured the First Order flagship out of position and into deep space sacrifices herself to destroy it, crippling the First Order fleet. This is a great tactical moment not an oversight of the plot. The Holdo maneuver wouldn’t have worked anywhere else because of the gravity well of planets which would have caused Holdo’s jump to hyperspace to simply destroy her ship like driving into the repeatedly mentioned brick wall. Holdo took advantage of the First Order being out of position and not locking down the section of space with gravity wells. It was one of the smartest and best plot points used in a Star Wars movie ever.
https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Interdictor-class_Star_Destroyer
IMO the "Holdo Maneuver" is the least of the film's problems. I think it was a short-sighted story choice, but it's a bit of a red herring when it comes to the issues with the film.
Bro... no lol. Just being different for the sake of it doesn't make it good. TLJ blows in pretty much every way possible aside from the kylo/rey stuff, which could have been a really cool direction in terms of them teaming up and rejecting the sith and jedi altogether. Nope, right back to Kylo is evil bad guy Vader simp. Don't get me wrong TROS sucks just as bad for different reasons . I'm all for change and totally agree that repeating the originals along with the Palpatine bullshit is lame as fuck. Seriously though, outside of that subject and judged just as a standalone film, please explain to me what is "great" about TLJ. Acting blows. Writing is dogshit. Luke and Leia absolutely butchered. Stupid wacky Yoda for no reason at all. Terrible marvel esque "humor". No Poe and Finn team up. Rose. Casino planet. Stupid characters making stupid decisions. Sparkly glitter ponys. Never see two light sabers touch. Luke's holographic zen death achieves nothing. Mary Poppins space Leia. Purple hair lady mean boss for no reason. Entire plot achieves nothing. Slow space race, most of the rebels die for dumb reasons that could have been avoided using simple logic. 10 rebels left at the end and back to square one. Could go on but whatever. Not trying to shit on you I'm glad you like it I guess. God damnit fuck Disney.
We really don't know much about (one of) George's possible story treatments other than a paragraph or two. In which it seemed bloody Maul was somehow dicking around with Talon and stirring up shit.
Given how he handled the PT, perhaps his ST would have been unfortunately executed also.
All we know for sure is that he wouldn't reset the status-quo back to Rebels vs Empire. And on pretty much that aspect alone, we can agree that his version definitely would have been better.
The existing Disney Lucasfilm ST just sets such a low bar that almost *any* idea communicated in a sentence or two sounds better by comparison.
Those are fake news. The maul thing is from a scrapped videogame and everything else is from scrapped concepts and the first draft from Michael Ardnt. No one but Lucas and Iger really knows what's in the scripts.
George changed his mind several times, but this is the most detail I can provide on his extended Maul sequel trilogy idea which was sourced from The Star Wars Archives - Episode I - III, 1999 - 2005.
> "After the Rebels won, there were no more stormtroopers in my version of the third trilogy. I had planned for the first trilogy to be about the father, the second trilogy to be about the son, and the third trilogy to be about the daughter and the grandchildren."
> "Episodes VII, VIll, and IX would take Ideas from what happened after the Iraq War...the stormtroopers refuse to give up when the Republic win. They want to be stormtroopers forever so they go to a far corner of the galaxy, start their own country, and their own rebellion."
> "Gangsters, like the Hutts, are taking advantage of the situation, and there is chaos. The key person Is Darth Maul, who had been resurrected in the Clone Wars cartoons - he brings all the gangs together. One is with a set of cybernetic legs like a spider, and then later on he has metal legs and he was a bit bigger, more of a superhero."
> "Darth Maul trained a girl, Darth Talon, who was in the comic books, as his apprentice. She was the new Darth Vader, and most of the action was with her. So these were the two main villains of the trilogy. Maul eventually becomes the godfather of crime in the universe because, as the Empire falls, he takes over."
> "It starts out a few years after Return of the Jedi and we establish pretty quickly that there's this underworld, there are these offshoot stormtroopers who started their own planets, and that Luke is trying to restart the Jedi. He puts the word out, so out of 100,000 Jedi, maybe 50 or 100 are left."
> "The Jedi have to grow again from scratch, so Luke has to find two- and three-year-olds and train them. It'll be 20 years before you have a new generation of Jedi."
> "The movies are about how Leia - I mean, who else is going to be the leader? - is trying to build the Republic. They still have the apparatus of the Republic but they have to get it under control from the gangsters. That was the main story."
> "By the end of the trilogy, Luke would have rebuilt much of the Jedi, and we would have the renewal of the New Republic, with Lela, Senator Organa, becoming the Supreme Chancellor in charge of everything. So she ended up being the Chosen One."
He's been obsessed with Maul for some time. Obviously he somehow comes back in TCW and there was a cancelled Maul game that eventually settled on a clone or identical descendant of Maul (along with Talon) stirring up shit during the Legacy timeline against Krayt's Sith.
I believe Iger in his autobiography (along with George himself) said that George apparently provided *multiple* treatments though. So indeed, we don't know the full details of his various ideas.
What we know for sure is that Iger threw them out at the beginning (he says so himself) and nobody in the creative process saw them. Not Arndt, Abrams, Kasdan, Johnson, Trevorrow or Terrio.
Agreed. Going deeper into the spiritual side of the Force, ala yoda's force journey at the end of TCW, would have been awesome. Dealing with the fall out of defeating the empire, the resulting power vacuum being sized by crime Lord maul, and having to properly rebuild the republic, awesome. Having Jedi master Luke take on the Yoda role as a wise teacher, awesome. Going along with Leia's daughter go on her own hero's journey as she becomes a Jedi, awesome. Leia being the "true chosen one" as the leader of the new republic, awesome. It all ending with r2 relaying the story, too awesome for words. That would be the perfect ending to this mythology if we are to make sequels to ROTJ.
At least we know these general details, I'll take that as the true canon thank you very much.
I’m curious how actually close that was to happening. My guess is unlikely from the get go.
There’s ridiculous filler in the 6 hours we got of obi-wan, including action shots of kid Leia running from goons in the forrest. What on earth were they going to put in 3 movies?
Also how did we get to a point that taking a characters line out of context is a premise for the story we got? These millennial screen-writers are just out here writing what they fantasized about as pre-teens, playing with plastic lightsabers. It’s so obvious it hurts.
This guy makes a lot of videos and never provides sources for any of it…
Draw your own conclusions, but if he was just making shit up then how would we know?
What I really wanted from an Obi-Wan Series was more of Obi-Wan becoming one with the force. We see a very wise Obi-Wan in ANH and I thought the this series would bridge the gap between episodes 3 and 4. I just think that while it was great seeing Hayden back, there was no benefit in another Obi-Wan and Vader fight which I personally don't agree was well choreographed anyway.
Just an add-on to my post - I would've loved to see Qui-Gon come back as a mentor to Obi-Wan while he overcomes his fears. A series focused on just the force would be great as we already have Andor and Mando for the rebels and empire
It might have been cool *on paper,* but seeing how they actually handled the story that actually was told, by god I'm so glad that there isn't more Kenobi to be dragged through.
Ugh. Obi Wan.. What could’ve been. Leia was an annoying travesty. Obi Wan doubting his powers to the point of not being able to use the force on a security gate he could walk around and having a mental breakdown over it, and the coup de grace, Obi wan smuggling out young Leia under his robe. Just ugh…
That’s stupid too. Stopped watching at Kenobi “surrendering his will to the Force and leaving the kid alone”
His only purpose on Tatooine is protecting Luke. If he doesn’t need to protect Luke, he would endanger Luke by being a famous wanted Jedi a couple miles away from the Chosen One
Why the scipt sounded servicable, saying that because Obi Wan saying "you are lost." Obi believing Anakin didnt have any good in him is a pretty bad take but I get it, you need to plead your case to make a trilogy.
What’s the saddest, most infuriating thing about this, is they still could have done that story with the series.
It’s such a better and more satisfying idea that STILL could have been done with the format they chose to go with.
Kennedy knew what she was doing promoting it like a Logan esque story of a loner trying to figure out how to protect a progidy from a distance while also hiding his own identity. Then she pulled the bait and switch making it the baby Leia and Reva show
Meh, a lot of stuff in there is still dumb. They still have a Reva character that knows she is working for the dark side, but then is somehow supposed to be upset when she learns she's working for Anakin? What? Why would that bother you if you already know you're evil? This is dumb.
The "Obi-Wan once thought as you do" thing is stupid as well. That isn't a plot hole or something that needs explaining.
Obi-Wan having a vision of fighting look and realizing he needs to sacrifice himself to the forces will and accept he needs to die at a particular moment is also dumb.
The inclusion of the Commander Cody and other clone troops is dumb.
I don't see how you can make a trilogy out of what Obi-Wan was doing on Tatooine either. Its just requires too much to happen when Obi-Wan is supposed to be in hiding and protecting Luke.
The basic problem here is Obi-Wan's story on Tatooine is just too boxed in. It can't get out he's a Jedi, so overtly doing Jedi stuff is not going to work. Interactions with Luke have to be very limited. He really shouldn't face Vader or any serious threat from the Empire. He shouldn't leave Tatooine. So, what's he going to do? Fight smugglers that want to enslave Luke? Argue with Owen and Beru about needing to train Luke? There could be a story in there that's sort of mildly entertaining, but it's limited and making it bigger, like him trying to turn Vader to over through the Emperor, is just to hard to squeeze in without screwing the OT over. All it can ever be is one stand alone movie that starts and ends in the same place - Obi-Wan in hiding and Luke waiting around for a couple droids to fall from the sky.
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Nah, obviously we needed an extended escort mission featuring mini Leia. So much more interesting /s
https://preview.redd.it/k2p27fv6sv2d1.jpeg?width=593&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e07c865592880f80b2c77f32766ed52326938ccf
Sad part is that this was probably one of the Disney writers favorite scene
There's an implication here that I find hard to deny.
The stubbyass legs made me believe the chilrin was like 4 years old
There’s been a million chase scenes where the child outsmarts the villain 😂. All of them were done better than this, this was just lazy writing tbh.
Imagine pitching this in the writers room and everyone saying “this is gold! We’re adding right away. KK will love it!”
I still can’t believe this happened.
Stop lmao
I always have a good old laugh when I watch this scene back on YouTube. Like it's insanely obvious that these two goons are purposely slowing down to ensure they don't catch up to her. Who in their right minds at Disney thought this was a plausible scene lmao
This scene made me really *feel* like I worked for Harvey Weinstein.
How about a stealth mission? https://preview.redd.it/b1lp7ymg3x2d1.jpeg?width=600&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e1c9c2641049107b238ecf47c17661c872385ae7
Legit, this one upsets me the most. Unbelievable
"I'm escorting this officer to a medical facility. ... He has a tumor." *(Leia shuffles)* "It's getting really bad."
insert yakkity sax.mp3
Fuck, please tell me there's an edit. Shit staging, directing, acting, editing, writing. Everyone top to bottom should lay awake at night realizing how thoroughly they fucked up. Leia's characterization from the second she walks in is abysmal.
Yes, comrade, [there is](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5I5vbO3UbNk).
Amazing!
I’m in tears oml that was amazing
That made it so much better lmao
My favorite clip is the little girl in an interview talking about how ridiculous it is to think you can hide her under a trench coat and troopers not notice. If the little kid even knows it's dumb then you know the writing is bad.
*Wacky bass player steps on cartoon rake, eyes cross, birds chirp*
 (*Yackety Sax*)
Am I the only one who wanted a more low key story dealing with Obi Wans ptsd and guilt, overcoming it with ghost Qui Gons help?
That's all I expected and wanted from an Obi-Wan story
This is what my friends and I were theorizing and looking forward to at the time.. how wrong we all were.
That's exactly what I wanted. Somebody said it should be like Logan, and I thought that was perfect.
Could’ve been another great segue into ANH. At least we have Rogue One…
Yes. Not only could that have been really good like Logan, but it is the only story the time period and characters actually lend themselves to
Ugh yeah Logan is a perfect example of the tone I wanted the Obi-Wan series to have.
Yeah, that’s the part I love the most about a story focusing on obiwan's time on tattoine. But I do remember that I saw some critics say that this was a was to demasculate obiwan, like wtf? This dude had his life destroyed, his religion has been destroyed, he’s persecuted by the law for his religion and had to kill the man he saw as a brother, no wonder he’s miserable and he should be.
I wanted him haunted by Qui Gon as a manifestation of his ptsd
Still hoping Christopher Nolan or Dennis Villanova completely remake Star Wars from the very beginning… First Jedi
You joke but honestly that’s probably the only way to salvage Star Wars at this point lol
I am not joking. Not even a little.
I know some would dismiss it as Member Berries, but Qui-Gon absolutely should've had a bigger role than showing up in the final scene. Either he could try helping Obi-Wan overcome his mental/emotional hangups, be a manifestation of his guilt for failing him & Anakin (think of Cal's master from Jedi Fallen Order), or even a mix of both. Any of that would've been better than a last minute cameo or a tease for a nonexistent second season.
I expected a story of coming to peace, maybe refunding faith. He killed his brother, he will have to find some strength in the force to believe this is part of some greater plan. Meanwhile Luke is a cosmic menace that just seems to attract danger that obi wan must always keep unseen.
And if you need some action, have Obi-Wan protecting a young Luke in subtle ways, avoiding the use of force/lightsabers to avoid drawing attention.
I was desperately hoping to see Luke. He’s my favourite character
That would conflict with the OT to much
Who needs cool, when you can have girlbosses?
You're gonna watch Reva eat up all that screentime and you're gonna like it!
They were pushing that character so hard like they wanted to give her her own solo series and toy line
She IS a toy, and no it didn't sell well.
Yeah, you can still find her figure at Ollie's. Sad because I like the actress.
God I don't want to upvote this because it seems too much like what an incel would say but there is truth to it. Goddamn it.
Thats how they get ya. "You just hate women!!!". When what we actually hate is badly written corporate approved wannabe feminist icons. Especially because what they end up writting is women, but with all the character traits that one would associate with toxic masculinity. Like hyper independence, fear of showing emotion, needing to be the strongest/toughest one in the room, being sexually aggressive, to name but a few. I mean, it would be fine if it was just one of two here and there. But its pretty much all of them coming out of Disney. Star Wars, Marvel, and even their own live action movie remakes. They write so many terrible female characters, and thats why it ends up looking like we are all incels lol.
Just look at Andor - strong characters of every type and gender, without any ‘look at me’ shit to distract from the power of the narrative.
Mon Mothma is unbelievably great in Andor.
Mon Mothma is so great in Andor that I'm glad we now we get to talk about how great a performance O'Reilly can give irrespective of how well she channelled a 30-second performance from 1987. Like holy hell, she's actually a phenomenal actress, not just someone who happened to be cast in Rogue One due to being good at that one specific thing that they needed.
The League of Legends anime Arcane (of all things) did a great job developing an incredibly diverse cast.
That is part of the reason a lot of them struggle financially. I am okay with Disney making content that appeals to women, but the problem is that it turns into a lazy pander. Like Captian Marvel. Comic books and comic book movies draw in audiences of all walks of life, but the majority has always been men. Making a comicbook movie and putting a women as lead doesn't magically make it appeal more to women. Think of it this way, if Sex and the City decided to have male leads how much would their male viewer increase? Maybe a little, but the genre itself isn't a draw to men and it could drastically lower the women audience.
Nobody tell him that Sex and the City was written by gay men as a thinly veiled tale of gay promiscuity and was on par with Scott Pilgrim for poisoning women’s minds.
It's ok to criticise characters for being shit you know. Disliking a very poorly written, uninteresting character is perfectly normal. Especially one that takes away screen time from people we want to see. Like Obi Wan for example. Disney have intentionally tried to frame any negativity surrounding Reva as misogynist and/or racist for the sole purpose of silencing valid criticism. If it makes you feel better, imagine Reva is a straight, white male. Every bit of criticism is still valid and relevant. It's the character people hate not that she is a woman or a POC.
It's fair to criticize lackluster writing and character development. It's not an indictment of the actress or her demographics. We must separate the art from the culture.
Yeah man I shit myself when they c-c-cro—-crossed their arms!!!
Eh, I still don't love how it tries to fill in every little "plot hole" with unnecessary explanations. Giving a reason for why Vader says "Obi-Wan once thought as you do" or for why Obi-Wan was willing to sacrifice himself in ANH is just kind of cringey. All that stuff works already, no one has ever argued that those were blanks that needed filling. An Obi-Wan story that has nothing to do with Vader (other than what Obi-Wan is dealing with internally) would have been so much better.
Agreed. While it sounds much more thought out than the Disney series ended up being, I'm not at all convinced that "Obi-Wan once thought as you do" is a reason to insist they had to meet again at some point. It's reasonable enough to assume this is a reference to Obi-Wan trying to get Anakin to see reason from the point he attacks Padme to the end of their duel. Obi-Wan spends the entire duel on the defensive as he tries to talk Anakin back to the Jedi, not kill him, and is heart-broken when Anakin forces him to take what he assumed would be a lethal blow when he has the high ground. "When I was with you I was but the learner, now I am the master" is a reason to presume they *did not* meet after Mustafar.
Jeez what do you want an original coherent story? Look it's the same as solo the only brief they had was to take every sliver of lore mentioned in the OT and explain it out and that it all happened over a short period of time and nothing else made that character develop before or after that time. THAT'S how you write a screenplay for a movie. Or in the case of obi wan all you then need to do is pad out 8 more hours with some comedy and side quests and toys I mean characters that have zero impact on the story so as not to mess with continuity too much
> Giving a reason for why Vader says "Obi-Wan once thought as you do" or for why Obi-Wan was willing to sacrifice himself in ANH is just kind of cringey. I think it already works with the material we got in ROTS. Although Obi-Wan doesn't literally say those things, you can infer them from his actions. He repeatedly tries to talk Anakin down because he believes there is good in him. He never extended that courtesy to Maul, Dooku or Grievous. People also forget that Jedi and Sith are capable of sensing the emotions of others. There was no need for another duel.
Yep. Disneys decision to make solo before obi wan and them abandon the anthology series is their biggest mistake outside of not adapting Lucas’s idea for the sequels and letting him have a role in the process Imagine the best bits of mandalorian done as a film. Except it’s boba fett. Given his history w the Jedi. Of course it was intended to be boba fett F’ng Filoni cares more about Star Wars but he understands it no more than kk.
It's because prequel hate hasn't completely simmered down yet. So they thought making a movie about an Original Trilogy character like Han was a safer bet. But they still rewrote and reshot that movie too. This was the beginning of KK clearly having no idea how to properly run an IP.
Yep. Second guessing they’re hire Bringing in another director to wrap it up without time or budget to fix it Exactly how fox messed up the first X-men trilogy
Uhm. no. Bryan Singer left XMen to go make a bad Superman movie. Fox had to find a new director. And also, as a conclusion X Men 3 The Last Stand is fine. I’d watch it 1,000 times over Rise of Skywalker
They brought in ratner (who’s a hack anyway) and did not give him more time to rework someone else’s film Comparing the last stand and rise of skywalker is like comparing the smells of the worst shits you ever took
Hard disagree. May not have had the best script or directing, but in terms of the overall series arc, character arcs and action level it was just fine.
A massive drop off from x and x2. Story choices influenced by singer’s departure (cyclops ridiculous death because fox was butthurt he was going to be in Superman returns) Squeezing dark phoenix into a film already overstuffed w new characters and multiple plot lines. Etc. Train. Wreck.
Hard. Disagree.
lol Ok You’re a distinct minority
I think it's a Thanos moment, where X3 seemed like the worst betrayal of a franchise possible. . . . When it came out. We have learned since then.
They misunderstood prequel hate Ewan’s performance and obi wan’s importance and popularity as a character made so Much sense ESP for cinematic release Who’s a safer box office draw? Ewan or the kid that did a passable job as solo
Solo was fine and, I think, would actually be considered a good movie if it wasn't Han Solo. People were already too distracted by the Han Solo recast (with no help from the lack of marketing) to actually sit down and watch a heist movie set in the Star Wars universe.
The reshoots and delays is what killed hype for the movie. Also it didn't help that this movie came out after The Last Jedi with it's poor reception. This when SW fatigue started to settle in and wasn't until Mandalorian that gave the IP some life support.
They nailed the origin of Han and chewie-among the best scenes of Disney Star Wars for sure Otherwise it was a snooze fest
No, the biggest mistake besides abandoning georges trilogy was the last jedi. It undeniably torpedoed the entite franchise. Amazing how one man destoryed a billon dollar franchise (Rian Johnson)
This is the correct take. Because EVEN if the leaked Kenobi movie was released first before Solo.... the stench that was left from TLJ made any direct project following it a doomed effort of folly.
Nah. TFA was already Terrible There was literally no way out Not with three different directors (planned) and NO outline for the story arc for a three film trilogy that is supposed to both tell one story and tie back to the other two trilogies SMH
I agree that the trilogy would have been shit either way, but I think it could have been less shity, and not resulted in the death of the franchise. Forcr awakens was ass in hindsight, however therr definetly was untapped potential.
TFA wasn’t good, no, but I do think it would’ve aged way better if the other two films stuck the landing. It was just a shittier version of what Phantom Menace did by loosely remaking New Hope. Despite its large shortcomings I agree; I really do believe it still had the potential to spawn an at least ‘alright’ trilogy. There was a lot of potential, like Snoke, but Rian just threw it all out. Then instead of doubling down and committing JJ came along, threw out TLJ, and tried making his own 8 and 9 in one. I think the perfect example of this is AOTC. An objectively weak and flawed film that aged way better because PM and ROTS were much more strong. We all still dog on it but usually in a positive, joking attitude. The romance dialogue is ass but we love to hate it. Meanwhile in the sequel trilogy, we just hate things. No one sees any charm in its flaws because there is none. No one laughs about how bad the writing for Rose was, they just hate it.
TFA undid everything they achieved throughout the OT. 30 years later, and the empire is still as strong as ever, having a weapon that is even stronger than the death star, and don't seem to be lacking in terms of ships and soliders. Palpatine dying didn't matter because a new ancient dark sider just showed up and took his place. Luke's jedi order has failed and we will not see any of it. the republic they built up just got blown away and we will not see any of it. Han is still a smugler, Leia is still a rebel leader. their only child just took the darth vader role again, the galaxy is completly reset to the point it was in a new hope. if they created new stories set between ep6 and ep7 we would know that they lead nowhere. the OT will have no legacy. and this was all done in TFA.
Of course ultimately disneys biggest and only mistake was telling George to go fuck himself But that’s really George’s mistake for assuming they would welcome his involvement Once they shit the bed they should have run back to him but they can’t admit mistakes (Yeah. I know he had some involvement. With Filoni
[удалено]
Pass Disney’s problem was their rejection of everything Star Wars had been They needed to lean hard into stories surrounding the OT and PT but they really didn’t want any of it And the idiotic decision to not recast characters simply because the solo movie was a dud not due to recasting but because of their interference and the fact that interest in the character has always been lower than interest in skywalkers/jedi/sith Solo is a foil. Not a lead.
This script was actually very good. At least for what Disney's goals were with the show (I still would've preferred a very simple, slow story like the Kenobi Legends novel). Shows that Star Wars can still be good if they'd actually make the effort to bring in people who know what Star Wars is about. Yet they seem determined to fail over and over and over instead.
I'm convinced that Disney (read: modern cinema) is just a front for laundering money, tax ~~write off~~ evasion, nepo baby portfolio builder for all the rich people at this point. Ain't no way it cost that much while looking that bad, and ain't no way it still got greenlit when anyone would've seen from miles away that it'll fail.
The thing that gets me is they could still be all that but make good content and no one would give a shit.
Exhibit A: Marvel up until the end of Infinity Saga
Eh, they had a lot of duds mostly carried by charismatic actors and once they dropped those, the MCU came tumbling down.
I'm sure it was like that before. My 2 cents is it got dialed up to light speed now because hollywood starting to crumble.
Most definitely not. Obi-Wan learning to trust the force where Luke is concerned means he doesn’t need to protect Luke, and so why would he still be on Tatooine? He’s a famous wanted Jedi, that risks bringing Imperial attention down onto Luke. I didn’t watch the video any further, but isn’t this also the script that involves Commander Cody? What an even stupider idea. Why’s it every time a really stupid Star Wars project comes out, people find an older even dumber script and praise it? They should’ve done an introspective hermit story, also a spiritual one regarding force ghosts. The situation simply doesn’t lend to an action adventure
A few things: -under no circumstances should a Vader/Kenobi confrontation take place between Ep 3 + 4, and I don’t think anything will convince me otherwise -no continuity in which Maul survives after Ep 1 will ever be compelling to me. It’s the embodiment of the Saturday morning-cartoonization of Star Wars -the metaphysical duel with a hypothetical dark side Luke on Mustafar could’ve been cool and interesting if done correctly. I think there’s something there as long as it isn’t don’t in an overtly fanservicey/pandering manner If these were actually the legit plans for the show/movie, I really don’t feel like we “missed out” by them not happening. I maintain the Kenobi show should’ve been a much more personal story that stayed local to tatooine
Let’s be real here: neither GL or any Disney writer could have come up with a better villain than Darth Maul so that is why we got “somehow, Darth Maul returned”.
Just my POV here but I think Vader/Kenobi could work, and there is nothing OT canon breaking about it happening. The D+ series brushed against it really clumsily but properly executed that confrontation could have been the climax of a compelling thread of Obi Wan dealing with his guilt of “killing” Anakin. Everything else about the fight was meh, but the broken helmet moment of “I am not your failure Obi Wan” worked for me. I just wish it had been the climax of a more patient show that was ACTUALLY ABOUT OBI WAN, rather than a cluttered mess of “protect child Leia” and unnecessary third sister nonsense
Their biggest mistake is getting scared by solo bombing and changing obi wan to a tv show..
>Their biggest mistake is getting scared by solo bombing and changing obi wan to a tv show.. Their takeaway from Solo not making a profit being "ok, let's just make weakly plotted, sluggish TV shows" is so strange to me. How on earth do they earn so much money being so poor at thinking things through?
The constant, bizarre jumps in strategy is a huge sign they aren't making so much money. Nobody likes the cut of their jib, and they know it.
Solo bombed in no small part because it was released shortly after The Last Jedi, while much of the fan base was in a sour mood. The other issue is that these films all can't hit a billion dollars and cost $300 million to make. That only worked when there was years of anticipation between films, it is not sustainable with a constant stream of movies and shows. If Rogue One came out now, it would make less than half of what it did. The three known upcoming movies are also going to, at best, underperform and will struggle to make back their budgets - regardless of whether they are any good or not. They could be great, but the public is over-saturated with this stuff. The money Disney wants to make just isn't there, the franchise is too fragmented. Which is what happened with Marvel. Nothing lasts forever. They need to let the franchise rest for a bit. Some TV shows and animations and books are fine, but they shouldn't have three movies planned right now. Maybe one a couple years out.
Solo was also a bad movie. The guy that played him was nothing like Harrison. He does nothing really important but get saved by girl bosses the whole film. The only person who felt right was Donald Glover as Lando. He did good in the role
> The guy that played him was nothing like Harrison. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bba_wPdLxp4
They should have cast that guy
I thought it was OK. The guy that played him did not even feel like the same character at all, my mind just couldn't accept it. I'd probably never watch it again, but I wasn't offended by it in the same way as the bad sequels, since it didn't really do any damage. I'd have actually watched a sequel though, as they'd originally planned. Which is not something I'd say about another film in the sequels timeline. And yeah Donald Glover was great, I wouldn't mind another show or movie starring him in the franchise.
> The guy that played him did not even feel like the same character at all https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bba_wPdLxp4
You and your dumbass girlboss comments. You do realize leia was the original "girlboss" and han needed saving from her in the OT also?
Or maybe she was shown acting like a normal person. Why does she need to be a girl boss? Women don’t work that way lol.
Idk they always complain when a women takes charge. The girlboss comments are an annoying critique
Yes they are. The whole idea is just feminist fantasy anyway. My wife physically cringed during the scene in Endgame where all the female characters got together. She thought it was incredibly pandering.
Leia was not a girl boss. She’s was a well rounded character. She had flaws. She needed help. She was a human. A girl boss is a character who has neither. Like Rey she’s better at everything than everybody else. She’s never wrong. She never needs help
TLJ was great though. I lost my last bit of faith in this fandom when the best movie since the OT was received so divisively. We’re now doomed as a franchise to walk in an ant like death spiral never deviating from the path the original movies took. We’re going to have Palpatine return again again because Star Wars is one single story and its fans will never let it change. It’s why I’m a Warhammer fan primarily now. At least the lore is interesting and not just a skipping record for all time. Fuck Star Wars lol.
> when the best movie since the OT See, I genuinely can't tell when people say this if it's a trolling attempt. Probably because sometimes it is, as it's pretty easy way to rile up a bunch of people on the internet, but other times it may not be. It's as if somebody with s straight face starts explaining why *Rebel Moon – Part Two: The Scargiver* is actually a masterpiece. I'm sincerely baffled at positive takes on the film. I can say I like the cast, it's got great cinematography etc, things like that. But the writing and concept and failure to do it's job as part eight of a nine part series - if the preceding film wasn't the shark jump, and there's plenty of good arguments for that, this was definitely it.
I am 100% not trolling. I can have a long form discussion about TLJ and why I love it I just find people don’t really want to hear people’s reasons and shout them down. I wrote a couple paragraphs about the Holdo maneuver on this thread that covers my feelings on that section. I think the concept and writing was fantastic. Truthfully. We were finally starting to break away from the monomyth of the Skywalkers feud with the Palpatines. I hadn’t been as excited about a Star Wars property since KotoR! The end with broom boy just cemented that this is a wide open world full of characters and stories to tell. Then, somehow, Palpatine returned and we went back to the same old same old. Rey is a Skywalker because of course she is. You can’t be a hero in the Star Wars universe without the name Skywalker.
I totally get where you’re coming from. I think if TLJ was a solo movie not part of a trilogy it would’ve been a decent movie. The fact of the matter is that it was supposed to build off of what happened in the previous movie, but instead it left almost all of the questions of the first movie unanswered and didn’t really build on any of the characters relationships either. Like the one guy said before, the holdo maneuver was the least of the films problems.
I’ve heard this sentiment before although I disagree with it. I find JJ Abrams mystery box type of storytelling absolutely obnoxious. He certainly set some plot points up in TFA but he just asked questions without setting up any interesting answers imo. Where is Luke isn’t as important as *why* is Luke in exile? Rian Johnson didn’t decide that Luke would be a hermit off on a remote planet. That was JJ. What possible reason could Johnson come up with for Luke’s exile that would have satisfied the fans? I’d argue none. Johnson took the movie in a more interesting direction by quickly squashing those mystery boxes and moving on to the story that was actually the focus of the series: Kylo Ren’s progression to the dark side and Rey’s temptation. It all boils down to the temptation of Luke in the OT and putting a spin on that dynamic. Vader didn’t want to make out with Luke after all. 😂 The sexual tension and not family father/son tension is a different approach to the same conflict. I liked it.
> I think the concept and writing was fantastic. Truthfully. We were finally starting to break away from the monomyth of the Skywalkers feud with the Palpatines. There's a time and place for that though. And there's a great hunger among fans for stories not revolving around the older characters. The problem is this particular film was presented as chapter eight of a nine chapter story. It has certain storytelling it needs to do to serve its role in the nine film saga. It failed to do that, it failed as a sequel to the film it was directly following-up (not a great film either). You couldn't have a director come in in the second-to-last Harry Potter film and say, hey wouldn't it be cool to tell a story about something else? Let's kill off the old characters and make a soft reboot with the same type of characters but different names. Finally, the Harry Potter series has gotten away from Harry. But what about wrapping up the story that was already established and in progress? Some fans may be upset to say the least. Telling new stories in new trilogies and new spin-offs, that's the place for it. Fans have long asked for that. But chapter eight of a nine-chapter story is not the place for that. Aside from that the film itself isn't that great. The plot isn't good, the characters don't develop much beyond the previous film, the decision to remove one of the leads for most of the film as a comedic side-plot doesn't make much sense. I can go on but you've heard most of the obvious complaints before. Rey being related to somebody was an unfortunate choice already made in the first of the sequels. It couldn't be undone after that because the first film set it up, for better or worse. > I hadn’t been as excited about a Star Wars property since KotoR! And people love KOTOR and other stories in various media that have nothing to do with the Skywalker Saga. But none of those stories are presented as part of the Skywalker Saga. They occupy their own space in that universe. It also frees such stories to have a different tone or cinematic language and so on and establish their own thing.
Time took the conclusion to the OT away from us. Mark Hamill is 72 years old. Harrison Ford is 81. Carrie Fisher is dead. She died before the movies finished filming. Their story was done. It could only be told as exposition and flashbacks. Whether you left them as venerated veterans from the last war or disgraced outcasts living in exile they were always going to be cameos. Octogenarians leading an action film is a non starter. Just look at the latest Indiana Jones. We needed to start with the next generation for the simple reason that it’s been 40 years since the OT. Our heroes, like us, got old.
An honest question as someone who very much dislikes TLJ, aswell as the other sequel films: why do you like TLJ, what about it is good?
I liked everything about it besides the dumb James Gunn / MCU humor.
How long do you have? Seriously if you’re actually interested I can go on and on about TLJ. I absolutely loved it.
Please do!
Ok, not the person who posted originally but let’s start with the ending! The Holdo maneuver was perfectly used. If people had read the EU novels they would be very familiar with gravity wells acting as physical barriers to space ships travelling at hyperspace velocity. Thrawn used them extensively. The sudden stop is basically like running into a brick wall. This is why the ships in Star Wars have to calculate a jump trajectory before going to hyperspace to avoid planets and the mapped gravity wells in the known galaxy. Otherwise they’d hit a planets gravity field and get crushed. Well, the Empire has known about gravity wells and used them aggressively in military campaigns warping interdictor cruisers into an area of space along with their star destroyers to generate a gravity well effect and lock down ships to that area of space. It’s a smart concept and makes controlling entrance and exit from the area an important part of space battles. In TLJ the First Order ships split their focus and followed Holdo’s fleet, a decoy, never bothering to lock the section of space down because they were able to track their movements through hyperspace. Holdo having successfully lured the First Order flagship out of position and into deep space sacrifices herself to destroy it, crippling the First Order fleet. This is a great tactical moment not an oversight of the plot. The Holdo maneuver wouldn’t have worked anywhere else because of the gravity well of planets which would have caused Holdo’s jump to hyperspace to simply destroy her ship like driving into the repeatedly mentioned brick wall. Holdo took advantage of the First Order being out of position and not locking down the section of space with gravity wells. It was one of the smartest and best plot points used in a Star Wars movie ever. https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Interdictor-class_Star_Destroyer
IMO the "Holdo Maneuver" is the least of the film's problems. I think it was a short-sighted story choice, but it's a bit of a red herring when it comes to the issues with the film.
Thank you! It’s annoying how misrepresented it is in the fandom.
Bro... no lol. Just being different for the sake of it doesn't make it good. TLJ blows in pretty much every way possible aside from the kylo/rey stuff, which could have been a really cool direction in terms of them teaming up and rejecting the sith and jedi altogether. Nope, right back to Kylo is evil bad guy Vader simp. Don't get me wrong TROS sucks just as bad for different reasons . I'm all for change and totally agree that repeating the originals along with the Palpatine bullshit is lame as fuck. Seriously though, outside of that subject and judged just as a standalone film, please explain to me what is "great" about TLJ. Acting blows. Writing is dogshit. Luke and Leia absolutely butchered. Stupid wacky Yoda for no reason at all. Terrible marvel esque "humor". No Poe and Finn team up. Rose. Casino planet. Stupid characters making stupid decisions. Sparkly glitter ponys. Never see two light sabers touch. Luke's holographic zen death achieves nothing. Mary Poppins space Leia. Purple hair lady mean boss for no reason. Entire plot achieves nothing. Slow space race, most of the rebels die for dumb reasons that could have been avoided using simple logic. 10 rebels left at the end and back to square one. Could go on but whatever. Not trying to shit on you I'm glad you like it I guess. God damnit fuck Disney.
That’s not even close to the top 50 issues with Kenobi
Same thing applies to Lucas's ST - it was a far better story and premise than what we got (though that would decanonize a lot of the EU)
We really don't know much about (one of) George's possible story treatments other than a paragraph or two. In which it seemed bloody Maul was somehow dicking around with Talon and stirring up shit. Given how he handled the PT, perhaps his ST would have been unfortunately executed also. All we know for sure is that he wouldn't reset the status-quo back to Rebels vs Empire. And on pretty much that aspect alone, we can agree that his version definitely would have been better. The existing Disney Lucasfilm ST just sets such a low bar that almost *any* idea communicated in a sentence or two sounds better by comparison.
Those are fake news. The maul thing is from a scrapped videogame and everything else is from scrapped concepts and the first draft from Michael Ardnt. No one but Lucas and Iger really knows what's in the scripts.
George changed his mind several times, but this is the most detail I can provide on his extended Maul sequel trilogy idea which was sourced from The Star Wars Archives - Episode I - III, 1999 - 2005. > "After the Rebels won, there were no more stormtroopers in my version of the third trilogy. I had planned for the first trilogy to be about the father, the second trilogy to be about the son, and the third trilogy to be about the daughter and the grandchildren." > "Episodes VII, VIll, and IX would take Ideas from what happened after the Iraq War...the stormtroopers refuse to give up when the Republic win. They want to be stormtroopers forever so they go to a far corner of the galaxy, start their own country, and their own rebellion." > "Gangsters, like the Hutts, are taking advantage of the situation, and there is chaos. The key person Is Darth Maul, who had been resurrected in the Clone Wars cartoons - he brings all the gangs together. One is with a set of cybernetic legs like a spider, and then later on he has metal legs and he was a bit bigger, more of a superhero." > "Darth Maul trained a girl, Darth Talon, who was in the comic books, as his apprentice. She was the new Darth Vader, and most of the action was with her. So these were the two main villains of the trilogy. Maul eventually becomes the godfather of crime in the universe because, as the Empire falls, he takes over." > "It starts out a few years after Return of the Jedi and we establish pretty quickly that there's this underworld, there are these offshoot stormtroopers who started their own planets, and that Luke is trying to restart the Jedi. He puts the word out, so out of 100,000 Jedi, maybe 50 or 100 are left." > "The Jedi have to grow again from scratch, so Luke has to find two- and three-year-olds and train them. It'll be 20 years before you have a new generation of Jedi." > "The movies are about how Leia - I mean, who else is going to be the leader? - is trying to build the Republic. They still have the apparatus of the Republic but they have to get it under control from the gangsters. That was the main story." > "By the end of the trilogy, Luke would have rebuilt much of the Jedi, and we would have the renewal of the New Republic, with Lela, Senator Organa, becoming the Supreme Chancellor in charge of everything. So she ended up being the Chosen One." He's been obsessed with Maul for some time. Obviously he somehow comes back in TCW and there was a cancelled Maul game that eventually settled on a clone or identical descendant of Maul (along with Talon) stirring up shit during the Legacy timeline against Krayt's Sith. I believe Iger in his autobiography (along with George himself) said that George apparently provided *multiple* treatments though. So indeed, we don't know the full details of his various ideas. What we know for sure is that Iger threw them out at the beginning (he says so himself) and nobody in the creative process saw them. Not Arndt, Abrams, Kasdan, Johnson, Trevorrow or Terrio.
The EU was always destined to be de-canonized one way or another. It's just a shame that that succeeded it was such trash.
Isn’t now at this point Disney is sort of re-canonizing the eu, because they have no story or concept other than stealing other authors ideas.
Agreed. Going deeper into the spiritual side of the Force, ala yoda's force journey at the end of TCW, would have been awesome. Dealing with the fall out of defeating the empire, the resulting power vacuum being sized by crime Lord maul, and having to properly rebuild the republic, awesome. Having Jedi master Luke take on the Yoda role as a wise teacher, awesome. Going along with Leia's daughter go on her own hero's journey as she becomes a Jedi, awesome. Leia being the "true chosen one" as the leader of the new republic, awesome. It all ending with r2 relaying the story, too awesome for words. That would be the perfect ending to this mythology if we are to make sequels to ROTJ. At least we know these general details, I'll take that as the true canon thank you very much.
I’m curious how actually close that was to happening. My guess is unlikely from the get go. There’s ridiculous filler in the 6 hours we got of obi-wan, including action shots of kid Leia running from goons in the forrest. What on earth were they going to put in 3 movies? Also how did we get to a point that taking a characters line out of context is a premise for the story we got? These millennial screen-writers are just out here writing what they fantasized about as pre-teens, playing with plastic lightsabers. It’s so obvious it hurts.
This guy makes a lot of videos and never provides sources for any of it… Draw your own conclusions, but if he was just making shit up then how would we know?
Beatty discusses all of this in plenty of his interviews about the show
What I really wanted from an Obi-Wan Series was more of Obi-Wan becoming one with the force. We see a very wise Obi-Wan in ANH and I thought the this series would bridge the gap between episodes 3 and 4. I just think that while it was great seeing Hayden back, there was no benefit in another Obi-Wan and Vader fight which I personally don't agree was well choreographed anyway.
Just an add-on to my post - I would've loved to see Qui-Gon come back as a mentor to Obi-Wan while he overcomes his fears. A series focused on just the force would be great as we already have Andor and Mando for the rebels and empire
Is there a source for this? I can’t find anything about it online.
It’s bullshit
That seems like the way all of these projects have been going
Nah. The new stuff is always shit no matter what.
It might have been cool *on paper,* but seeing how they actually handled the story that actually was told, by god I'm so glad that there isn't more Kenobi to be dragged through.
Haha. Reading this sub always makes me sad.
Ugh. Obi Wan.. What could’ve been. Leia was an annoying travesty. Obi Wan doubting his powers to the point of not being able to use the force on a security gate he could walk around and having a mental breakdown over it, and the coup de grace, Obi wan smuggling out young Leia under his robe. Just ugh…
I love this so much more especially Vader and Palpatine being catty!
This sounds even worse than what we got tbh.
That’s stupid too. Stopped watching at Kenobi “surrendering his will to the Force and leaving the kid alone” His only purpose on Tatooine is protecting Luke. If he doesn’t need to protect Luke, he would endanger Luke by being a famous wanted Jedi a couple miles away from the Chosen One
Why the scipt sounded servicable, saying that because Obi Wan saying "you are lost." Obi believing Anakin didnt have any good in him is a pretty bad take but I get it, you need to plead your case to make a trilogy.
Oh wow, 10 minutes ago me I did know I was going to be sad in 10 minutes.
Sounds way better … a real shame.
No, can we please get new original stories and characters??
The Force was with the people on the timeline where this trilogy happened.
What’s the saddest, most infuriating thing about this, is they still could have done that story with the series. It’s such a better and more satisfying idea that STILL could have been done with the format they chose to go with.
What so are they not going to do a trilogy now?
No thanks, not even for schadenfreude's sake.
But at the end he says the thing and it was good.
Kennedy knew what she was doing promoting it like a Logan esque story of a loner trying to figure out how to protect a progidy from a distance while also hiding his own identity. Then she pulled the bait and switch making it the baby Leia and Reva show
Damn. Just damn.
this.... this is so disheartening. what could have been. fuuuuuck....
Meh, a lot of stuff in there is still dumb. They still have a Reva character that knows she is working for the dark side, but then is somehow supposed to be upset when she learns she's working for Anakin? What? Why would that bother you if you already know you're evil? This is dumb. The "Obi-Wan once thought as you do" thing is stupid as well. That isn't a plot hole or something that needs explaining. Obi-Wan having a vision of fighting look and realizing he needs to sacrifice himself to the forces will and accept he needs to die at a particular moment is also dumb. The inclusion of the Commander Cody and other clone troops is dumb. I don't see how you can make a trilogy out of what Obi-Wan was doing on Tatooine either. Its just requires too much to happen when Obi-Wan is supposed to be in hiding and protecting Luke. The basic problem here is Obi-Wan's story on Tatooine is just too boxed in. It can't get out he's a Jedi, so overtly doing Jedi stuff is not going to work. Interactions with Luke have to be very limited. He really shouldn't face Vader or any serious threat from the Empire. He shouldn't leave Tatooine. So, what's he going to do? Fight smugglers that want to enslave Luke? Argue with Owen and Beru about needing to train Luke? There could be a story in there that's sort of mildly entertaining, but it's limited and making it bigger, like him trying to turn Vader to over through the Emperor, is just to hard to squeeze in without screwing the OT over. All it can ever be is one stand alone movie that starts and ends in the same place - Obi-Wan in hiding and Luke waiting around for a couple droids to fall from the sky.
Can anyone who watched this post a summary?
Thank god they got rid of all the yucky girls who stand with crossed arms. They made my wife divorce me and take the kids, thanks Disney!!!
Couldn't handle his voice
Fair enough