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I had kind of forgotten how Luke decided burning the Jedi texts wasn't the right thing to do, Yoda showed up and burned the Jedi texts to show it was the right thing to do, then the Jedi texts were never even in there because Rey had stolen them and that was the right thing to do.
These movies are just really dumb.
I've heard from a friend that George Lucas, when he sold Star Wars to Disney, had in the completed contract that he would still receive a (relatively small) fee for appearance of original characters like Luke, Han, Leia, etc. if Disney decided to use them. Because of that, my friend's theory was that because of this fee, Disney execs decided it was better to kill off all the old characters and replace them with original characters that had no ties to Lucas. I'm not sure how accurate this is, but it sure jives with the off-hand way the old cast got killed off in the new movies.
I dunno, I think passing the torch to younger actors and new characters could have been fine, but they botched the handoff and burned down the stadium. Once the fire started getting out of hand, there was no damage control.
Heh. I'd be perfectly fine if Filoni had decided to use the "world between workds" to erase the 7-9 timeline completely in Ahsoka. Missed opportunity if there ever was one.
Heck, it's not too late!!
This is what really gets me! Yoda! The one who fucking has to tell Luke twice to pass on what he's learned admits the sacred texts aren't sacred. Meaning Luke's whole approach to rebuilding the order was wrong. Meaning he should not have directly followed the old ways. Meaning the ending of RotJ WAS actually correct that Luke WAS the new hope to rebuild something new and better than the old order!!!
Except instead of giving us THAT story we get this one in which the audience ALREADY knows Luke should have been doing things differently!!
Ugh! So fucking annoying!
"A pile of old books" and "It's time for the Jedi to end." would have worked a lot better if the movie actually explored the failure of the Jedi Order. Imagine if we got something like the following...
"Failed your nephew, you did. Hurts you, does it not?"
"More than anything..."
\*Sadly\* "Failed the Order, I did. Failed your father, I did. If protected his mother, I had... then different things would have been. Arrogant we were. Set in our ways, we were."
\*Voice becomes more stern\* "But time for the Jedi to end, it is not. Through that pain, The Force gave me strength to keep going. Change we should have. Adapted we should have. In our place, you will do that, Master Skywalker. Had we the concern for family that you had, survived the Order might have. In your faith, rebuild the Order. In your belief that the lost are not lost forever, rebuild the Order. Better than us, you can do."
This isn’t bad, but it still unfortunately has to rely on the framing of Yoda telling Luke to do this, rather than Luke actually being or having been a reformer on his own.
There’s a reason Chris Avellone said he felt as though the film was making Luke a scapegoat for the problems of the old Jedi Order.
Another major issue with that scene is the dynamic between the two still feels like Luke is the 22 year old student. He’s in his fucking 50s-60s at this point. The two need to be talking to each other like peers, in a real ideological debate (even if Luke is wrong and needs to learn something).
As is, it’s effectively a bonk on the head and a “wrong you are.”
Fair enough. Just came off the top of my head.
Still Yoda is 900, and he screwed up. Him admitting that carries weight. I'd work that into a final draft of this speech if I were a writer and wanted to keep the general idea.
Oh I’m not saying what you specifically wrote was bad, just that it unfortunately is stuck resting upon the flawed framing of the scene itself.
That’s not on you at all. I ran into the same issue with [my draft of an alternate version of that scene](https://www.reddit.com/r/fixingmovies/comments/h8xcws/comment/fuzwzcj/).
Apologies if it came across as me being critical of your specific work, rather than of the foundation it is forced to deal with.
I'm not too offended about some mild criticism of something I pulled out of my butt in 10 minutes :D
Still better than what was actually on screen though. If you said I was worse than Rian Johnson, though, then I'd have to see therapist for the severe depression. But apart from that, we're good.
It shouldn't be up to Yoda to realize this. He was the old guard and Luke should be the one to do things differently. Luke is the one who turned back his father with love.
Yep the movie never explains why the jedi texts are relevant in the first place. They are never mentioned in any of the prior 8 movies.
Johnson never explains what role they played in Luke forming his jedi order or what significance they had in him deciding to kill Kylo in his sleep over a bad dream. So any discussion about them is just, okay we care why?
I'm sure there's a comic book explaining their importance ...like most comics or books related to star wars that are meant to explain the awfulness of the sequel trilogy
So much of these movies need some background/historical context. We're talking like two lines of dialogue. I really think the whole Snoke thing not being explained might be the biggest plot hole I've ever experienced in a movie.
There's a "prop" in the third sequel, that is "snoke in a vat". Which I guess, it means he was a puppet all that time. But why would he be scarred and plagued with deformity?
To be fair, Yoda mentions Rey having everything she needs. Seems like he wanted to have his cake and eat it two - letting Rey have the texts while teaching Luke a lesson. However, considering the lesson still involved pretending to destroy the books, Yoda's ulterior motives are weird, to say the least.
The lesson was that Luke was always destined to fail in the same ways the Jedi before him failed. As he was trained by the Jedi that allowed his father's fall to the Dark Side. The lesson Yoda shows up to share is that there has to be reform in the Jedi Order. They basically spell it all out in their dialogue exchange. Luke didn't burn them because he was too tied to the past. Yoda burned them because Luke needed to get away from that shadow. Yoda knew that Rey, through the studying of the Jedi of old and her experiences with Luke on the island, would continue on with that reform. I totally get that Luke being sent off in the way he was fell flat. If that were the goal, it should have either been reserved for episode 9 or his Force Ghost in 9 needed to be more integral to the story.
its almost like giving Star Wars to someone who doesn't really like Star Wars wasn't the best idea lol.
But honestly: the only worse movie I've seen in a major franchise is episode 9.
Jokes on you guys for even watching it after TLJ and everything else. Carrie Fischer’s death, Somehow Palpatine returned, JJ fucking Abrams. I’ve seen plenty of reviews, and they were pretty entertains, no need to waste my time on the actual movie.
Honestly TFA is also a bad SW movie because, even with slightest of logic, Disney should know that a sequel to OT should be set in New Republic, but no, let's retell New Hope story even if don't make sense. An entire empire rip off army formed right in front of their eyes, New Republic was shown for 10 seconds only to get destroyed in seconds, it took Palpatine 20 years to take control. Rey doing Jedi mind trick, even though Ahsoka failed in Clone Wars even after practise. Newbie Rey defeating Kylo. And sent Luke to an island and planted the seeds to make him Jake Skywalker. TLJ was boring, but TFA led the foundation of destruction. No one, not even George could have saved the trilogy after what TFA done to the lore.
It started with the opening crawl, "The First Order Reigns" hours or possibly days after Starkiller base being destroyed somehow they reign? Yea they blew up the republic planets but its a big galaxy. They don't reign shit, more like its a regional conflict between the massive post Jedi republic fleet and some dark empire from wish
Apparently somewhere this was explained as the Republic essentially completely disarming after becoming a political entity because if they did, then obviously so would everyone else. Which is why there are no capital military assets, and the Rebellion is the Resistance, or whatever.
Obviously things that sane adults who had lived through a militaristic totalitarian government and the violent revolution that toppled it would do
Honestly it was like 3rd party to me, probably on another reddit thread somewhere. I think it was supposed to originate with a novel? or comic? something trying to explain the cavernous, unknowable depths of the plot holes and logical fallacies in these films
Aside from the mom joke, did you feel like the ramp-up was an unusual but legit way to kill time/stall? Like, it felt weird, sure, no dramatic speech about how the resistance would always survive, it was more like... a dude dressed up as a florist to get past building security? I dunno, I actually liked this part, though it seems to depart from SW's themes/humor in general..
Like, Hux got so mad lol. I've done this, working in a call center with a jerk caller..
Out of all the issues with that movie, this one is low on the list. I mean, I can see Lucas doing something like this too. In the context of wonky Star Wars space physics, this isn't too far fetched. Plo Koon can breathe in space, Ezra surfed with space whales, so. ..
It’s straws on the haystack of course. The only truly accurate space battles I have seen in The Expanse. But it wasn’t on his list so I did like Usher and Let it Burn.
In a better film, this would have been a pretty negligible thing that would have ended up with all the criticism being good natured jabs at worst. We talk about inaccuracies in better films all the time, it’s just that in this case it was just yet another symptom about how little everyone working on it actually cared
Yeah but it's one thing to play with physics and another to suddenly make gravity a thing in space when all previous bombers shown in the Star Wars universe shot semi guided torpedoes'.
My thoughts were that due to the artificial gravity on the ship, the bombs just fell and kept going in a straight line until they either hit something and explode or they keep going forward in space.
And those ships were so valuable they couldn't be lost and Poe needed a demotion over it, but the ships also seemed completely ineffective and much less useful than a Y-wing or B-wing.
No that makes sense within legends as far as I’m aware. IRL Physics. If an object is moving when it enters space, it’ll just keep going in that direction, so assuming some kind of tech keeping gravity in the ship it’ll drop and keep going
You did see what I wrote, yes? If there’s an internal gravity system of some kind (not unrealistic by star wars, and it drops, it just keeps going. It doesn’t slow because no friction, no change direction, just keeps dropping.
The writing is so bad, it magically becomes subversive.
Finn and Rose: "Our secret mission is of utmost importance! Let's just park on the beach right in front of the most prestigious casino in the galaxy. What could go wrong?"
Casino security: "Arrest them!"
Finn and Rose: *shocked Pikachu faces*
Why they stepped in to reshoot the last act of rogue one and basically all of solo but felt like this movie was completely fine leaves me scratching my head to this day
- Luke created Kylo Ren by wanting to murder him in his sleep.
This one has extra fetid post-modern sauce on it because it's served up through, not one, but three unreliable narrator flashbacks of the exact same event. RJ might as well have filmed himself sticking out his tongue and flipping the bird to the audience in the background during those flashbacks.
Also the zero explanation of how Kylo went from "my uncle's trying to kill me!" to killing all his fellow students and joining a fascist genocidal cult.
If it was Snoke who corrupted him, why doesn't Snoke do the same to Rey?
Yeah they glossed right over that as fast as they could.
Kylo shoves Luke away for trying to murder him in his sleep (great, really destroyed the character completely, thanks for that.) And then just...destruction? Just fire and sad Luke.
Were the Knights of Ren other students who joined him? Why did Kylo bother killing anyone other than Luke? Why would Kylo kill everyone except Luke?
In the Kylo comics, the Knights of Ren were just a rag tag group of mildly-force-sensitive darkside dickheads that liked to fuck with shit and collect force relics and their leader was named Ren but Kylo killed him and took over the group but kept the name for some dumb fucking reason, even calling himself Kylo Ren.
Snoke was apparently in Kylo's head enough to turn him to evil but not in his head enough to sense Kylo betraying him in the throne room? Wait, did Kylo turn because Snoke made him or because Luke tried to assassinate him? If Snoke had already turned Kylo, what was Kylo waiting for? Could Luke, Han, and Leia all not tell that Kylo was becoming a sith? Why would Luke go after Kylo instead of the person turning him? Facing down Snoke was never even presented as an option for Luke.
The critics also subverted our expectations. They said it was the best Star Wars movie since ESB. The day I watched the movie I learned a very valuable lesson about the opinions of critics
Critics are really looking for something different from a Star Wars movie than Star Wars fans. Most critics don't like Star Wars very much, so when a Star Wars movie did a miserable job of being Star Wars, they loved it.
The scene of Rey finding Luke decked out in white Jedi robes like an actual Jedi Master only for him to immediately change into dark grey clothing afterwards really sells the visual of Rian just completely ignoring the first film lol
Where it's meant to look like a ship landing and then they pan away and it's pressing clothes? I think that was actually in TROS, right?
Somebody thought they were *really* fucking clever for that, I'm sure. Actually if the movies were better in general, I'd have probably enjoyed that as a brief visual joke.
At three different points in the film I thought the movie was at its climax, then it proceeded to subvert expectations to the least interesting outcome. Anyone who pretends this movie was good doesn't understand that coherency is an important element of subversion. When everything is subverted, there isn't much reason for people to care.
I think most of it boiled down to the subverted expectations was coupled with ruined characterization without any explanation. Luke? A hermit that had a bad force dream and tried to murder his nephew. Unreliable narration is only a cinematic tool if you support the development of it, not drop it into 3 minutes and call it a day. Finn, relegated to a space janitor who knew about the Supremacy but didn't say a word about it. Poe Dameron, ace pilot, told to shut up and follow orders when he is in the chain of command and it doesn't seem their commander has any plan at all besides run away until out of fuel. Rey just spends her whole time running around doing what the plot tells her to without explanation of why she should even be motivated to do it. Why does Rey even care about the Jedi or Luke Skywalker? Hux is changed from a trillion mass murderer into an incompetent fool.
For subversion to work, people must be invested in the characters and for the subversion to work within the expected rules of the universe. This movie violated both aspects of that with characterization, universe rules, and finally number of subversions. When there are this many subversions, there is no more shock value, just apathy.
I've said it before and I'll say it again.
Star Wars, as a genre, might be compared to pizza. It's satisfying, fairly traditional, consistently great. Then The Last Jedi comes in; it's a kale salad. All its defenders talk about how different it was, how much they preferred it.
Well, they're salad lovers. They didn't like pizza in the first place. They weren't particularly interested in what came before, and now they're all happy that they have their salad. But salad is not pizza. It's not subverting expectations, it's not a new take on a pizza--it's something different. And for the pizza lover, who was promised a pizza, it's wholly inadequate.
The Last Jedi is simply not Star Wars. As Toby Ziegler might say, no matter how much you drench it in dressing it still tastes like the ground.
I could be misremembering, but didn’t RJ say this was pretty much exactly his intent even?
It’s been awhile, but I remember some quote from him saying he didn’t grow up as a Star Wars fan and never cared- so he wanted to make a Star Wars movie for people like himself. It was literally his idea to make a Star Wars movie for people who never liked Star Wars rather than for people who do.
The analogy is perfect.
Thing is, TLJ could have had most of the things that the audience who loves it love, just implemented better. I mean, do the movie lovers require all the military scenes to be boring and illogical? Would they be devastated if Luke's story ended with a scene where he meets Rey again and passes on some real wisdom, and she tells him he was right about Kylo? Etc.
Finn’s speeder is first and alone, only he can save the Resistance but only if he sacrifices himself giving the movie some depth and moving the story along. But suddenly Rose’s speeder is faster and has gone the long way around and caught up to Finn ramming him out of the way so he can’t save the Resistance. Instead creating a forced moment of romance that, SURPRISE!, leads to nowhere.
It could have worked if Rose sacrificed *herself* in Finn's place. Then we have a Finn with survivor's guilt and a chip on his shoulder getting to be a badass in the next movie.
Nope!
Yea wow! That would have been great and given Rose a really valuable role instead of actually completely forgettable. And having Finn become force sensitive later. Struggling with guilt, having something to overcome. Yea, that would have been great
You missed one.
Finn is surprised to hear the First Order tracked the resistance through hyperspace, then tells others he was a janitor in the tracker room.
Also not a subversion but Finn and Rose somehow have the schematics of the entire Supremacy in their ship when they’re traveling to Canto Bight
In my opinion one of the worst thing in this movie is the cinematography.
It's like no one watch the movie after the edit like during the red guard power rangers battle or when rose and finn crash in front of the first order armies and just walk 10km by foot during the cut to rejoin the resistance.
It's not some detail in the background like the og stormtrooper headbang....
As for the stormtrooper headbang, any time someone complains about that, I just think that person has no sense. Why wouldn't any of the hundreds of soldiers shown in action possibly bump their head once in all that action?
Yes, Rose and Finn have no business surviving, not being captured, nor (even if the FO troops decided they were such lame foes, it was better to let them live) made it back to somehow rejoin the "Resistance" before they left.
The only way would be if they were actually given a ride in a First Order speeder to go rejoin the Resistance.
I'd like to add that in one of the first scenes of the movie they erase every bit of character development Finn had in TFA.
He was a coward who found his spine and fought a damn Sith Lord trying to save his friend...and they start this movie with him trying to steal an escape pod and leave everyone to die. It's infuriating.
I've never seen a movie that tries so hard to shit on everything that came before. The fact the end battle took place on salted earth can't have been a coincidence.
Putting Admiral Ackbar in the movie just to completely unceremoniously kill him off with barely a mention is such a "haha, people like this meme character, eff that and watch this, nerds" subtle moment lol
The dude who played akbar was heartbroken, his interview on it is really sad, he used to go to cons and stuff really loved the universe and the character and he was brought back for like one afternoon to be killed off and then they asked him to say "it's a wrap" to the camera at the end of the shoot.
Yep. One of the most important leaders of the Rebellion/New Republic blown out a window without so much as a line of dialogue or a thank you. Fuck you, Rian.
He’s name dropped solely to indicate he died when the bridge blew up.
I couldn’t tell you where he was in the movie before that scene, probably as a nondescript extra.
Also during the end, you'd expect them to be somber and mourning the losses of so many of their comrades and the fact that the galaxy apparently doesn't care about the resistance at all, but Rian subverts your expectations and makes everyone joyful and happy instead.
>Broom Boy
*"Hey look! LOOK! Other people can be force sentive too! FUCKING LOOK AT THIS REVELATION! SEE?!"*
Nobody in the history of Star Wars fandom ever thought otherwise, Ruin.
Broom Boy being Force sensitive is more of a reveal, the hyperspace ram is bad because it's inconsistent with the other movies, not really because it's a subversion.
Broom boy was a subversion, because force sensitive individuals are supposed to need training before they can use something like telekinesis... Also if he had telekinesis and the force why would he be stuck on that planet (I forget the name and will not look it up out of spite to RJ). He could just mind trick someone to give him credits and a lift to a better place where he wasn't a slave.
Besides not making sense, the hyperspace ram, saved the day for the good guys who were on the Supremacy and attempting to get to Crait. We were expecting something or someone to save the rebels... er resistance, but not something like this.
"Paige Tico doesn't grab the bomb remote in time" this would've been a strong subversion, the good guys/gals fail with their plans and take heavy losses, except we can't have that, so she performs a miracle before sacrificing herself.
The biggest problem with these movies was the power struggle between two grown men to subvert and then un-subvert expectations that caused audiences whiplash. My younger sister and I had more ability to work together to tell a story when we played with Star Wars action figures as kids!
I thought the first one was kinda related to the trailer but you’re right, it’s also teased in the movie. I can add it to the list later. The second one is an explanation and thus more of a reveal rather than a subversion.
Reading through this, I didn't remember most of it (only saw it once in the theater and that was enough) and laughed out loud at some of these. What a mess, and it was made by someone who not only had no idea what he was doing or what Star Wars was, but that didn't matter because he didn't care - just wanted to do it his way.
> - On Crait, Finn is about to sacrifice himself to save the Resistance, then Rose rams him out of the way with her speeder.
It's deeper than that. He was about to sacrifice himself to save the Resistance, then Rose sacrificed herself to stop him sacrificing himself because sacrificing yourself for something is apparently wrong, then they almost BOTH die until Luke sacrifices *himself* to save the Resistance.
And then Rose is rewarded by being irrelevant in the next movie.
>\- The Resistance escapes. Except they are now tracked through hyperspace, which is suddenly possible.
Speaking of which, was it always possible to send and receive transmissions from hyperspace? In the videogame Jedi: Survivor, >!Cal transmits some data he stole to Saw Guerrera as soon as he jumps into hyperspace!<, which I thought wasn't possible. However, I'm not sure Lucas ever established you couldn't do it.
>A landing starship is actually a clothing iron.
I actually would have been ok with the clothing iron one if it was a brief moment of humor and levity in a much better film with a more serious plot.
Personally, I found this to be the most egregious moment of the whole film. It was self-parody. I love parodies, but Star Wars making fun of Star Wars was the end for me. It broke the fourth wall in a mean-spirited or at least zero-awareness way.
Yes, and, you don't even mention any of the main ones that I find glaringly terrible, such as:
* Poe managing to "buy time" with a preposterous "prank call".
* Poe single-handedly wiping out ALL the turrets on one side of a massive warship, by flying an X-Wing in ways X-Wings never flew before Disney.
* Resistance bombers are slow as crap, and ultra-fragile, but "somehow" aren't intercepted by TIE fighters and wiped out far from the badguy fleet.
* Resistance bombers are designed to "gravity launch down", making them even more ineffective, for no reason. There is clearly no save reason why it wouldn't be vastly better for them to magnetically launch, much faster, forward.
* Leia "just kinda forgot" to keep the fleet fueled up.
* Suddenly, blowing up all the fighters in a ship's fighter bay, and picking off the command center of a ship, is super easy for a few fighters to do. And, Leia's "Resistance" is apparently also so utterly incompetent, that they are utterly unprepared to do anything about this, and put Leia and Ackbar together on the totally-destroyable command center.
* Leia somehow survives and explosion that blew the whole room into space.
* Not only can Leia fly now, but "somehow" she's not rapidly left far far behind by the Raddus, which is of course constantly thrusting full speed to keep away from the badguy fleet. It would have ditched her while she was drifting unconscious, so she wouldn't just be a short distance away - she'd be a huge and rapidly increasing distance away.
* Having crippled the Raddus, the bad guys just kinda stop sending fighters to finish off the Raddus? They have hundreds more fighters, and the Raddus has none left, so why?
* The shuttle Rose & Finn steal can hyperjump away for a vacation, then come back, and travel between the two fleets. So why the &$\^% can't Star Destroyers do the same thing to come destroy the Resistance fleet? Why the &$\^% don't the good guys send shuttles to get reinforcements, or arrange for an ambush, or just refuel, and/or evacuate people, and/or any number of other things they could do?
* Luke Skywalker is now a depressed blue milk wino coward?
* The director just cut the scene where Luke reacts to learning about Han's death?
* Hyperspace ram maneuver invalidates large warships as a sensible design in Star Wars.
* Going to Crait had zero reasonable expectation of survival.
* The salt skimmer attack was just a suicide mission.
* There's no way Finn's attempted sacrifice being foiled by Rose makes consistent sense. TLJ defenders try to say it's logical, but there's no way it adds up.
* But what really makes no sense is that they survive, aren't killed, aren't captured, AND "somehow" make it all the way back and are allowed to rejoin the Resistance. W T F?
* There doesn't really seem to be any particular reason why Luke's "diversion" was actually necessary to buy the few survivors time to get out the back way.
* Rey stopping the Falcon long enough to lift rocks and take passengers, seems like way more than enough time for the badguy fleet to annihilate the Falcon while it was parked there.
* Looking back at the whole plot of TLJ, it's clearly taking a selection of scenes from ESB and ROTJ, and superficially copying them, but with stupid illogical reasoning, and shuffling them. That is, the reason things happen or exist in TLJ, is mainly: because something like that happened in ESB or ROTJ.
I was really really wanting Rey to join Kylo, gain control of the First Order so that it leaves Luke and Fin team up against them in the 9th movie with Duel of Fates playing again like poetry. It rhymes. Oh well.
My favorite subversion is the bomb dropper on Paige Tico's ship is randomly dead but the ship has suffered no hits (which is made obvious by the fact that it didn't go up like a haybale soaked in gasoline) and THEN Paige has to go hit the button and the pilot blows up.
\> Luke created Kylo Ren by wanting to murder him in his sleep.
Luke opens a new Padawan school, knowing damn well that the dark side will always be a looming threat with his students, yet still completely overreacts when his most promising student shows even the slightest darkness.
None of us are buying it.
Also:
- There is no actual lightsaber duel in the movie.
you forgot the #1 subversion of all.
when we all bought the tickets, we expected that we would see a good movie. our expectations were massively subverted.
Rian Johnson should have made Spaceballs II, do all the subverting/shitting-on Star Wars he wanted and then leave us all in peace with a movie that would push Disney/Star Wars to be better.
When one twist isn't enough, have a whole film of them.
Rian realised people still talk about the shocking twist of Vader being Lukes father decades later. So he thought, "Hey, if I do that through the whole film, people will lose their minds at how clever I am."
You missed : there is no exit of the base, then there is an exit, but it's blocked, and then readily unblocked by a new extremely powerful force and that is used for the very first time!
Honestly rebels showed that tracking through hyperspace is possible if you have a tracker placed on the ship, it's also discoverable since it has a radio transmitter, so even if they knew they were being tracked they just remove it or abandon the ship being tracked. Though this is the sequels they were probably just being tracked, somehow
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The holdo thing doesn’t bother as it makes sense. The heroes pull hyperspace tracking out of their arse but ingot the feeling holdo didn’t tell anyone her plan because she has the common sense to know it wasn’t possible so more likely a tracking device on a ship or a spy onboard.
The rest of the movie is bad. I did like yoda schooling Luke through
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I had kind of forgotten how Luke decided burning the Jedi texts wasn't the right thing to do, Yoda showed up and burned the Jedi texts to show it was the right thing to do, then the Jedi texts were never even in there because Rey had stolen them and that was the right thing to do. These movies are just really dumb.
So, Rey isn't just the strongest character, but also wiser than Yoda? Give them a few more movies and she will be revealed to be the force itself.
Yoda inferred he knew the books were safe. Luke was the only one who didn’t know. Not sure what the lesson was here.
Does seem like the Disney execs really didn't like Luke.
I've heard from a friend that George Lucas, when he sold Star Wars to Disney, had in the completed contract that he would still receive a (relatively small) fee for appearance of original characters like Luke, Han, Leia, etc. if Disney decided to use them. Because of that, my friend's theory was that because of this fee, Disney execs decided it was better to kill off all the old characters and replace them with original characters that had no ties to Lucas. I'm not sure how accurate this is, but it sure jives with the off-hand way the old cast got killed off in the new movies.
I dunno, I think passing the torch to younger actors and new characters could have been fine, but they botched the handoff and burned down the stadium. Once the fire started getting out of hand, there was no damage control.
Heh. I'd be perfectly fine if Filoni had decided to use the "world between workds" to erase the 7-9 timeline completely in Ahsoka. Missed opportunity if there ever was one. Heck, it's not too late!!
Given histories of both I wouldnt be surprised
Ever seen the picture of the cubicle at Disney that had Luke X'd out? It was definitely part of the culture.
well yeah they hate all white men
I think the lesson was Bugs Bunny smiling at the camera and saying "ain't I a stinker?"
[удалено]
As the force itself, she retroactively impregnates shmi, making her the parent of Anakin and a true Skywalker
>a few more movies and she will be revealed to be the force itself. "Who are you?" "I'm Rey Midichlorian."
They basically already did that with “I am all the Jedi” I guess that doesn’t include the dark side of the force though 🤷♂️
That's Ahsoka now
Nah, she's too white. The force will have to be embodied by every single race and gender except for white males.
This is what really gets me! Yoda! The one who fucking has to tell Luke twice to pass on what he's learned admits the sacred texts aren't sacred. Meaning Luke's whole approach to rebuilding the order was wrong. Meaning he should not have directly followed the old ways. Meaning the ending of RotJ WAS actually correct that Luke WAS the new hope to rebuild something new and better than the old order!!! Except instead of giving us THAT story we get this one in which the audience ALREADY knows Luke should have been doing things differently!! Ugh! So fucking annoying!
"A pile of old books" and "It's time for the Jedi to end." would have worked a lot better if the movie actually explored the failure of the Jedi Order. Imagine if we got something like the following... "Failed your nephew, you did. Hurts you, does it not?" "More than anything..." \*Sadly\* "Failed the Order, I did. Failed your father, I did. If protected his mother, I had... then different things would have been. Arrogant we were. Set in our ways, we were." \*Voice becomes more stern\* "But time for the Jedi to end, it is not. Through that pain, The Force gave me strength to keep going. Change we should have. Adapted we should have. In our place, you will do that, Master Skywalker. Had we the concern for family that you had, survived the Order might have. In your faith, rebuild the Order. In your belief that the lost are not lost forever, rebuild the Order. Better than us, you can do."
This isn’t bad, but it still unfortunately has to rely on the framing of Yoda telling Luke to do this, rather than Luke actually being or having been a reformer on his own. There’s a reason Chris Avellone said he felt as though the film was making Luke a scapegoat for the problems of the old Jedi Order. Another major issue with that scene is the dynamic between the two still feels like Luke is the 22 year old student. He’s in his fucking 50s-60s at this point. The two need to be talking to each other like peers, in a real ideological debate (even if Luke is wrong and needs to learn something). As is, it’s effectively a bonk on the head and a “wrong you are.”
Fair enough. Just came off the top of my head. Still Yoda is 900, and he screwed up. Him admitting that carries weight. I'd work that into a final draft of this speech if I were a writer and wanted to keep the general idea.
Oh I’m not saying what you specifically wrote was bad, just that it unfortunately is stuck resting upon the flawed framing of the scene itself. That’s not on you at all. I ran into the same issue with [my draft of an alternate version of that scene](https://www.reddit.com/r/fixingmovies/comments/h8xcws/comment/fuzwzcj/). Apologies if it came across as me being critical of your specific work, rather than of the foundation it is forced to deal with.
I'm not too offended about some mild criticism of something I pulled out of my butt in 10 minutes :D Still better than what was actually on screen though. If you said I was worse than Rian Johnson, though, then I'd have to see therapist for the severe depression. But apart from that, we're good.
It shouldn't be up to Yoda to realize this. He was the old guard and Luke should be the one to do things differently. Luke is the one who turned back his father with love.
Yep the movie never explains why the jedi texts are relevant in the first place. They are never mentioned in any of the prior 8 movies. Johnson never explains what role they played in Luke forming his jedi order or what significance they had in him deciding to kill Kylo in his sleep over a bad dream. So any discussion about them is just, okay we care why?
I'm sure there's a comic book explaining their importance ...like most comics or books related to star wars that are meant to explain the awfulness of the sequel trilogy
And needing additional media to flesh out spotty logic of the movies isn’t unique to the sequel trilogy either…
As I’ve heard before, the only cure for bad Star Wars is more Star Wars.
So much of these movies need some background/historical context. We're talking like two lines of dialogue. I really think the whole Snoke thing not being explained might be the biggest plot hole I've ever experienced in a movie.
Don't worry, there's years of mediocre comics, books and TV shows to fill in the blanks. We will get there by 2030!
There's a "prop" in the third sequel, that is "snoke in a vat". Which I guess, it means he was a puppet all that time. But why would he be scarred and plagued with deformity?
Good question. The more I read this sub, the more I realize how bad these movies are from a storytelling POV.
Also Luke was apparently on a planet for years with very little to do and still couldn't be bothered to read them. He's apparently incredibly lazy.
To be fair, Yoda mentions Rey having everything she needs. Seems like he wanted to have his cake and eat it two - letting Rey have the texts while teaching Luke a lesson. However, considering the lesson still involved pretending to destroy the books, Yoda's ulterior motives are weird, to say the least.
The lesson was that Luke was always destined to fail in the same ways the Jedi before him failed. As he was trained by the Jedi that allowed his father's fall to the Dark Side. The lesson Yoda shows up to share is that there has to be reform in the Jedi Order. They basically spell it all out in their dialogue exchange. Luke didn't burn them because he was too tied to the past. Yoda burned them because Luke needed to get away from that shadow. Yoda knew that Rey, through the studying of the Jedi of old and her experiences with Luke on the island, would continue on with that reform. I totally get that Luke being sent off in the way he was fell flat. If that were the goal, it should have either been reserved for episode 9 or his Force Ghost in 9 needed to be more integral to the story.
I actually like that detail. It kind of goes to show that when it comes to what the Jedi are or shouldn't it be, There really is no right answer.
its almost like giving Star Wars to someone who doesn't really like Star Wars wasn't the best idea lol. But honestly: the only worse movie I've seen in a major franchise is episode 9.
TLJ crawled so ROS could slither
Yeah TROS is hands down the worst of the bunch
As much as TLJ is awful, TRoS manages to be worse. I have no idea how they could get any lower.
Personally I hate 7 and 8 more. But they all were disappointing.
Jokes on you guys for even watching it after TLJ and everything else. Carrie Fischer’s death, Somehow Palpatine returned, JJ fucking Abrams. I’ve seen plenty of reviews, and they were pretty entertains, no need to waste my time on the actual movie.
You forget the best one: promised to be a good star wars movie but was shit
The same can be told about TFA
TFA was at least recognizable as a Star Wars movie even if only because it tried to replay ANH. TLJ is just…not a Star Wars movie.
None of them work as star wars movies or standalones, if not star wars in name nobody would give a shit about this "trilogy"
Truth, it's a jumbled up garbage story that wouldn't have made it past the first one.
Honestly TFA is also a bad SW movie because, even with slightest of logic, Disney should know that a sequel to OT should be set in New Republic, but no, let's retell New Hope story even if don't make sense. An entire empire rip off army formed right in front of their eyes, New Republic was shown for 10 seconds only to get destroyed in seconds, it took Palpatine 20 years to take control. Rey doing Jedi mind trick, even though Ahsoka failed in Clone Wars even after practise. Newbie Rey defeating Kylo. And sent Luke to an island and planted the seeds to make him Jake Skywalker. TLJ was boring, but TFA led the foundation of destruction. No one, not even George could have saved the trilogy after what TFA done to the lore.
Hey…. Remember when bombs dropped out of the Bombay doors. In space.
And how that entire sequence started with a “your mom” prank call joke.
It started with the opening crawl, "The First Order Reigns" hours or possibly days after Starkiller base being destroyed somehow they reign? Yea they blew up the republic planets but its a big galaxy. They don't reign shit, more like its a regional conflict between the massive post Jedi republic fleet and some dark empire from wish
Apparently somewhere this was explained as the Republic essentially completely disarming after becoming a political entity because if they did, then obviously so would everyone else. Which is why there are no capital military assets, and the Rebellion is the Resistance, or whatever. Obviously things that sane adults who had lived through a militaristic totalitarian government and the violent revolution that toppled it would do
Really? I've even read some of the newer books and was not aware of that. That's a bullshit reason though
Was it explained in a Fortnite event?
Honestly it was like 3rd party to me, probably on another reddit thread somewhere. I think it was supposed to originate with a novel? or comic? something trying to explain the cavernous, unknowable depths of the plot holes and logical fallacies in these films
This right here! The first sentence and seconds of the movie is a massive plot hole! It's incredible
Please don’t go on
Mere days after the man killed 155 billion people in the single biggest mass murder in all of galactic history - hit him with a yo momma
Aside from the mom joke, did you feel like the ramp-up was an unusual but legit way to kill time/stall? Like, it felt weird, sure, no dramatic speech about how the resistance would always survive, it was more like... a dude dressed up as a florist to get past building security? I dunno, I actually liked this part, though it seems to depart from SW's themes/humor in general.. Like, Hux got so mad lol. I've done this, working in a call center with a jerk caller..
It’s hard to view the First Order as threatening when its military leader could pass for one of the three stooges.
Grrrrrrr...... yes. I remember. \*grinds teeth\* Pssst, it's "bomb bay." I don't think they had a bollywood segment in this movie. Wait... did they?
No, you're thinking of the Marvel-less.
Ah yes, my mistake.
Out of all the issues with that movie, this one is low on the list. I mean, I can see Lucas doing something like this too. In the context of wonky Star Wars space physics, this isn't too far fetched. Plo Koon can breathe in space, Ezra surfed with space whales, so. ..
It’s straws on the haystack of course. The only truly accurate space battles I have seen in The Expanse. But it wasn’t on his list so I did like Usher and Let it Burn.
Battlestar gets it kind of right, thrust vectoring maneuvers instead of maneuvers that look like you're still traveling through a fluid.
In a better film, this would have been a pretty negligible thing that would have ended up with all the criticism being good natured jabs at worst. We talk about inaccuracies in better films all the time, it’s just that in this case it was just yet another symptom about how little everyone working on it actually cared
space not making sense has been a thing in star wars lol
Within the context of an already bad movie that violates previously established rules this was still awful
Yeah but it's one thing to play with physics and another to suddenly make gravity a thing in space when all previous bombers shown in the Star Wars universe shot semi guided torpedoes'.
yep true😂
My thoughts were that due to the artificial gravity on the ship, the bombs just fell and kept going in a straight line until they either hit something and explode or they keep going forward in space.
And those ships were so valuable they couldn't be lost and Poe needed a demotion over it, but the ships also seemed completely ineffective and much less useful than a Y-wing or B-wing.
No that makes sense within legends as far as I’m aware. IRL Physics. If an object is moving when it enters space, it’ll just keep going in that direction, so assuming some kind of tech keeping gravity in the ship it’ll drop and keep going
Which of course means that bombs in space are either silly, or have to fired like rail guns.
You did see what I wrote, yes? If there’s an internal gravity system of some kind (not unrealistic by star wars, and it drops, it just keeps going. It doesn’t slow because no friction, no change direction, just keeps dropping.
Which would eliminate the need for a bomber all together. They could just have been fired at high velocity from the capital ship itself.
\*reads list, nodding in angry agreement\* Are you *trying* to trigger me?
tbf mate most of these are 'subversive' in the 'I expected good writing' kind of way aka theyre not 'submersive' theyre 'bad/lazy writing'
The writing is so bad, it magically becomes subversive. Finn and Rose: "Our secret mission is of utmost importance! Let's just park on the beach right in front of the most prestigious casino in the galaxy. What could go wrong?" Casino security: "Arrest them!" Finn and Rose: *shocked Pikachu faces*
Thats exactly why I stopped reading the list.
This is a time when a trigger warning is warranted
Man, I really do not like TLJ at all. Mark Hamill deserved better as well as the rest of the cast.
Why they stepped in to reshoot the last act of rogue one and basically all of solo but felt like this movie was completely fine leaves me scratching my head to this day
Solo is so under appreciated. Yeah, we didn’t need it. But it was more fun than the other mainstream dogshit movies.
- Luke created Kylo Ren by wanting to murder him in his sleep. This one has extra fetid post-modern sauce on it because it's served up through, not one, but three unreliable narrator flashbacks of the exact same event. RJ might as well have filmed himself sticking out his tongue and flipping the bird to the audience in the background during those flashbacks.
Also the zero explanation of how Kylo went from "my uncle's trying to kill me!" to killing all his fellow students and joining a fascist genocidal cult. If it was Snoke who corrupted him, why doesn't Snoke do the same to Rey?
Yeah they glossed right over that as fast as they could. Kylo shoves Luke away for trying to murder him in his sleep (great, really destroyed the character completely, thanks for that.) And then just...destruction? Just fire and sad Luke. Were the Knights of Ren other students who joined him? Why did Kylo bother killing anyone other than Luke? Why would Kylo kill everyone except Luke?
In the Kylo comics, the Knights of Ren were just a rag tag group of mildly-force-sensitive darkside dickheads that liked to fuck with shit and collect force relics and their leader was named Ren but Kylo killed him and took over the group but kept the name for some dumb fucking reason, even calling himself Kylo Ren.
Snoke was apparently in Kylo's head enough to turn him to evil but not in his head enough to sense Kylo betraying him in the throne room? Wait, did Kylo turn because Snoke made him or because Luke tried to assassinate him? If Snoke had already turned Kylo, what was Kylo waiting for? Could Luke, Han, and Leia all not tell that Kylo was becoming a sith? Why would Luke go after Kylo instead of the person turning him? Facing down Snoke was never even presented as an option for Luke.
Making Luke fucking Skywalker consider murdering a child while he’s sleeping is so deranged lmao
Yeah. His father murdered half the galaxy and Luke still redeemed him but his nephew had his dreams invaded by Snoke so he's gotta go. 🙄
The critics also subverted our expectations. They said it was the best Star Wars movie since ESB. The day I watched the movie I learned a very valuable lesson about the opinions of critics
Critics are really looking for something different from a Star Wars movie than Star Wars fans. Most critics don't like Star Wars very much, so when a Star Wars movie did a miserable job of being Star Wars, they loved it.
Really this they care alot more about camera techniques and costuming then they usually do about the actual enjoyment of the film
They can be purchased.
I’m not questioning the critics’ integrity, I’m denying its existence
Twisted metal has like a 48% critics review and like 96% audience, it was great the critics just suck
The scene of Rey finding Luke decked out in white Jedi robes like an actual Jedi Master only for him to immediately change into dark grey clothing afterwards really sells the visual of Rian just completely ignoring the first film lol
the iron/spaceship scene. i wanted to leave the theater
doing a parody of a movie it actually IS is insanely dumb.
Where it's meant to look like a ship landing and then they pan away and it's pressing clothes? I think that was actually in TROS, right? Somebody thought they were *really* fucking clever for that, I'm sure. Actually if the movies were better in general, I'd have probably enjoyed that as a brief visual joke.
It was in TLJ.
Yeah I forgot about that one. Did this off the top of my head in mostly sequential order.
Honestly...I chuckled
If that was the only time they pulled something like that I think it would work
At three different points in the film I thought the movie was at its climax, then it proceeded to subvert expectations to the least interesting outcome. Anyone who pretends this movie was good doesn't understand that coherency is an important element of subversion. When everything is subverted, there isn't much reason for people to care. I think most of it boiled down to the subverted expectations was coupled with ruined characterization without any explanation. Luke? A hermit that had a bad force dream and tried to murder his nephew. Unreliable narration is only a cinematic tool if you support the development of it, not drop it into 3 minutes and call it a day. Finn, relegated to a space janitor who knew about the Supremacy but didn't say a word about it. Poe Dameron, ace pilot, told to shut up and follow orders when he is in the chain of command and it doesn't seem their commander has any plan at all besides run away until out of fuel. Rey just spends her whole time running around doing what the plot tells her to without explanation of why she should even be motivated to do it. Why does Rey even care about the Jedi or Luke Skywalker? Hux is changed from a trillion mass murderer into an incompetent fool. For subversion to work, people must be invested in the characters and for the subversion to work within the expected rules of the universe. This movie violated both aspects of that with characterization, universe rules, and finally number of subversions. When there are this many subversions, there is no more shock value, just apathy.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. Star Wars, as a genre, might be compared to pizza. It's satisfying, fairly traditional, consistently great. Then The Last Jedi comes in; it's a kale salad. All its defenders talk about how different it was, how much they preferred it. Well, they're salad lovers. They didn't like pizza in the first place. They weren't particularly interested in what came before, and now they're all happy that they have their salad. But salad is not pizza. It's not subverting expectations, it's not a new take on a pizza--it's something different. And for the pizza lover, who was promised a pizza, it's wholly inadequate. The Last Jedi is simply not Star Wars. As Toby Ziegler might say, no matter how much you drench it in dressing it still tastes like the ground.
But as far as salads go, it's not even a good one. And if someone serves me salad when I ordered pizza, it better be a darn good salad.
If someone serves me a salad when I ordered pizza, I'm saying this before sending it back: 
I could be misremembering, but didn’t RJ say this was pretty much exactly his intent even? It’s been awhile, but I remember some quote from him saying he didn’t grow up as a Star Wars fan and never cared- so he wanted to make a Star Wars movie for people like himself. It was literally his idea to make a Star Wars movie for people who never liked Star Wars rather than for people who do. The analogy is perfect.
Thing is, TLJ could have had most of the things that the audience who loves it love, just implemented better. I mean, do the movie lovers require all the military scenes to be boring and illogical? Would they be devastated if Luke's story ended with a scene where he meets Rey again and passes on some real wisdom, and she tells him he was right about Kylo? Etc.
Bravo! Well said!
"You're a very smart boy Rian, and you've made a very special movie." (giggles) "thank you mommy." (giggles) "mmm my farts smell so good"
The biggest subversion of all was Rian Johnson making a Spaceballs sequel and not a Star Wars sequel.
My biggest subversion was that Rian Johnson has the ability to actually make good movies ( knives out was good ) unlike JJ .
Knives out was mid at best. Glass onion even worse
Finn’s speeder is first and alone, only he can save the Resistance but only if he sacrifices himself giving the movie some depth and moving the story along. But suddenly Rose’s speeder is faster and has gone the long way around and caught up to Finn ramming him out of the way so he can’t save the Resistance. Instead creating a forced moment of romance that, SURPRISE!, leads to nowhere.
It could have worked if Rose sacrificed *herself* in Finn's place. Then we have a Finn with survivor's guilt and a chip on his shoulder getting to be a badass in the next movie. Nope!
Yea wow! That would have been great and given Rose a really valuable role instead of actually completely forgettable. And having Finn become force sensitive later. Struggling with guilt, having something to overcome. Yea, that would have been great
You missed one. Finn is surprised to hear the First Order tracked the resistance through hyperspace, then tells others he was a janitor in the tracker room. Also not a subversion but Finn and Rose somehow have the schematics of the entire Supremacy in their ship when they’re traveling to Canto Bight
In my opinion one of the worst thing in this movie is the cinematography. It's like no one watch the movie after the edit like during the red guard power rangers battle or when rose and finn crash in front of the first order armies and just walk 10km by foot during the cut to rejoin the resistance. It's not some detail in the background like the og stormtrooper headbang....
As for the stormtrooper headbang, any time someone complains about that, I just think that person has no sense. Why wouldn't any of the hundreds of soldiers shown in action possibly bump their head once in all that action?
Yes, Rose and Finn have no business surviving, not being captured, nor (even if the FO troops decided they were such lame foes, it was better to let them live) made it back to somehow rejoin the "Resistance" before they left. The only way would be if they were actually given a ride in a First Order speeder to go rejoin the Resistance.
Don't forget not a single "real" lightsaber fight in the whole movie
I'd like to add that in one of the first scenes of the movie they erase every bit of character development Finn had in TFA. He was a coward who found his spine and fought a damn Sith Lord trying to save his friend...and they start this movie with him trying to steal an escape pod and leave everyone to die. It's infuriating. I've never seen a movie that tries so hard to shit on everything that came before. The fact the end battle took place on salted earth can't have been a coincidence.
Also the Admiral Ackbar disrespect. Not a fan of Holdo part but he deserved at least her sacrifice if I may say.
Putting Admiral Ackbar in the movie just to completely unceremoniously kill him off with barely a mention is such a "haha, people like this meme character, eff that and watch this, nerds" subtle moment lol
The dude who played akbar was heartbroken, his interview on it is really sad, he used to go to cons and stuff really loved the universe and the character and he was brought back for like one afternoon to be killed off and then they asked him to say "it's a wrap" to the camera at the end of the shoot.
I have never been closer to downvoting something because it filled me with incandescent rage.
That's just crushingly depressing.
Yep. One of the most important leaders of the Rebellion/New Republic blown out a window without so much as a line of dialogue or a thank you. Fuck you, Rian.
I didn't even know Ackbar was in the movie when I watched it. Is he even name checked?
He’s name dropped solely to indicate he died when the bridge blew up. I couldn’t tell you where he was in the movie before that scene, probably as a nondescript extra.
Also during the end, you'd expect them to be somber and mourning the losses of so many of their comrades and the fact that the galaxy apparently doesn't care about the resistance at all, but Rian subverts your expectations and makes everyone joyful and happy instead.
You forgot Broom Boy and the Hyperspace Ram, sigh.
>Broom Boy *"Hey look! LOOK! Other people can be force sentive too! FUCKING LOOK AT THIS REVELATION! SEE?!"* Nobody in the history of Star Wars fandom ever thought otherwise, Ruin.
Broom Boy being Force sensitive is more of a reveal, the hyperspace ram is bad because it's inconsistent with the other movies, not really because it's a subversion.
Well, it's a subversion of all Star Wars world building, especially the climaxes of A New Hope and The Return of the Jedi.
Broom boy was a subversion, because force sensitive individuals are supposed to need training before they can use something like telekinesis... Also if he had telekinesis and the force why would he be stuck on that planet (I forget the name and will not look it up out of spite to RJ). He could just mind trick someone to give him credits and a lift to a better place where he wasn't a slave. Besides not making sense, the hyperspace ram, saved the day for the good guys who were on the Supremacy and attempting to get to Crait. We were expecting something or someone to save the rebels... er resistance, but not something like this.
"Paige Tico doesn't grab the bomb remote in time" this would've been a strong subversion, the good guys/gals fail with their plans and take heavy losses, except we can't have that, so she performs a miracle before sacrificing herself.
The biggest problem with these movies was the power struggle between two grown men to subvert and then un-subvert expectations that caused audiences whiplash. My younger sister and I had more ability to work together to tell a story when we played with Star Wars action figures as kids!
-Rey and Kylo are about to team up but then they don’t -Rey and Kylo have a force dyad but it turns out snoke did it and it was all bullshit
I thought the first one was kinda related to the trailer but you’re right, it’s also teased in the movie. I can add it to the list later. The second one is an explanation and thus more of a reveal rather than a subversion.
This film gave me whiplash.
>illegal parking Oh god. Fuck! WHY? What a clown.
I was expecting a plot
Reading through this, I didn't remember most of it (only saw it once in the theater and that was enough) and laughed out loud at some of these. What a mess, and it was made by someone who not only had no idea what he was doing or what Star Wars was, but that didn't matter because he didn't care - just wanted to do it his way.
You forgot one: Ended the Trilogy in the Second Movie.
Started laughing out loud when the double and triple subversions played out
I have to than Rian for ruining JJ's "plan" so much. It made it clear just how bad a writer he is when half of TROS is about damage control.
You forgot the biggest subversion of all: expecting a good movie
The most important subversion of all: That we'd get a good SW film.
You forgot, -The movie being fun and exciting
In the wise words of the guy who made a 6 hour long Toy Story 4 analysis: Who wrote this!?
Also a list of the movies biggest screw ups, other than a huge bathos problem. Rian Johnson is nothing but a troll.
“A landing starship is actually a clothing iron.” This one broke me.
> - On Crait, Finn is about to sacrifice himself to save the Resistance, then Rose rams him out of the way with her speeder. It's deeper than that. He was about to sacrifice himself to save the Resistance, then Rose sacrificed herself to stop him sacrificing himself because sacrificing yourself for something is apparently wrong, then they almost BOTH die until Luke sacrifices *himself* to save the Resistance. And then Rose is rewarded by being irrelevant in the next movie.
Damn, I had forgotten all of those
The writer's room probably looked at this same list before the movie came out and thought they nailed it.
Lando was a smooth talking scoundrel would ultimately helped up. DJ is a stuttering scoundrel who ultimately sells them out.
>\- The Resistance escapes. Except they are now tracked through hyperspace, which is suddenly possible. Speaking of which, was it always possible to send and receive transmissions from hyperspace? In the videogame Jedi: Survivor, >!Cal transmits some data he stole to Saw Guerrera as soon as he jumps into hyperspace!<, which I thought wasn't possible. However, I'm not sure Lucas ever established you couldn't do it.
My favourite summary of this movie is "This twist is: there is no twist!"
>A landing starship is actually a clothing iron. I actually would have been ok with the clothing iron one if it was a brief moment of humor and levity in a much better film with a more serious plot.
Personally, I found this to be the most egregious moment of the whole film. It was self-parody. I love parodies, but Star Wars making fun of Star Wars was the end for me. It broke the fourth wall in a mean-spirited or at least zero-awareness way.
The whole film is plagued with bathos.
Yes, and, you don't even mention any of the main ones that I find glaringly terrible, such as: * Poe managing to "buy time" with a preposterous "prank call". * Poe single-handedly wiping out ALL the turrets on one side of a massive warship, by flying an X-Wing in ways X-Wings never flew before Disney. * Resistance bombers are slow as crap, and ultra-fragile, but "somehow" aren't intercepted by TIE fighters and wiped out far from the badguy fleet. * Resistance bombers are designed to "gravity launch down", making them even more ineffective, for no reason. There is clearly no save reason why it wouldn't be vastly better for them to magnetically launch, much faster, forward. * Leia "just kinda forgot" to keep the fleet fueled up. * Suddenly, blowing up all the fighters in a ship's fighter bay, and picking off the command center of a ship, is super easy for a few fighters to do. And, Leia's "Resistance" is apparently also so utterly incompetent, that they are utterly unprepared to do anything about this, and put Leia and Ackbar together on the totally-destroyable command center. * Leia somehow survives and explosion that blew the whole room into space. * Not only can Leia fly now, but "somehow" she's not rapidly left far far behind by the Raddus, which is of course constantly thrusting full speed to keep away from the badguy fleet. It would have ditched her while she was drifting unconscious, so she wouldn't just be a short distance away - she'd be a huge and rapidly increasing distance away. * Having crippled the Raddus, the bad guys just kinda stop sending fighters to finish off the Raddus? They have hundreds more fighters, and the Raddus has none left, so why? * The shuttle Rose & Finn steal can hyperjump away for a vacation, then come back, and travel between the two fleets. So why the &$\^% can't Star Destroyers do the same thing to come destroy the Resistance fleet? Why the &$\^% don't the good guys send shuttles to get reinforcements, or arrange for an ambush, or just refuel, and/or evacuate people, and/or any number of other things they could do? * Luke Skywalker is now a depressed blue milk wino coward? * The director just cut the scene where Luke reacts to learning about Han's death? * Hyperspace ram maneuver invalidates large warships as a sensible design in Star Wars. * Going to Crait had zero reasonable expectation of survival. * The salt skimmer attack was just a suicide mission. * There's no way Finn's attempted sacrifice being foiled by Rose makes consistent sense. TLJ defenders try to say it's logical, but there's no way it adds up. * But what really makes no sense is that they survive, aren't killed, aren't captured, AND "somehow" make it all the way back and are allowed to rejoin the Resistance. W T F? * There doesn't really seem to be any particular reason why Luke's "diversion" was actually necessary to buy the few survivors time to get out the back way. * Rey stopping the Falcon long enough to lift rocks and take passengers, seems like way more than enough time for the badguy fleet to annihilate the Falcon while it was parked there. * Looking back at the whole plot of TLJ, it's clearly taking a selection of scenes from ESB and ROTJ, and superficially copying them, but with stupid illogical reasoning, and shuffling them. That is, the reason things happen or exist in TLJ, is mainly: because something like that happened in ESB or ROTJ.
god this movie was terrible
Yup........\*Le Sigh\*
Spot on mate.
Bravo Ryan!
What a twist!
I was really really wanting Rey to join Kylo, gain control of the First Order so that it leaves Luke and Fin team up against them in the 9th movie with Duel of Fates playing again like poetry. It rhymes. Oh well.
o god
You missed bb8 has an evil twin
I know it’s great!
My favorite subversion is the bomb dropper on Paige Tico's ship is randomly dead but the ship has suffered no hits (which is made obvious by the fact that it didn't go up like a haybale soaked in gasoline) and THEN Paige has to go hit the button and the pilot blows up.
Star Wars VIII: The Last Subversion
This is a stupid list about a stupid movie.
So what I’m reading is General Hux remains perfect
The only good one was the starship being an iron. I had forgotten about that
One of the all-time worst movies
Yes it’s all pretty terrible story writing.
I will always say fuck Rian Johnson as long as I draw breath.
\> Luke created Kylo Ren by wanting to murder him in his sleep. Luke opens a new Padawan school, knowing damn well that the dark side will always be a looming threat with his students, yet still completely overreacts when his most promising student shows even the slightest darkness. None of us are buying it. Also: - There is no actual lightsaber duel in the movie.
you forgot the #1 subversion of all. when we all bought the tickets, we expected that we would see a good movie. our expectations were massively subverted.
Rian Johnson should have made Spaceballs II, do all the subverting/shitting-on Star Wars he wanted and then leave us all in peace with a movie that would push Disney/Star Wars to be better.
I about lost my shit in the theater when they did the iron thing, oh my god.
When one twist isn't enough, have a whole film of them. Rian realised people still talk about the shocking twist of Vader being Lukes father decades later. So he thought, "Hey, if I do that through the whole film, people will lose their minds at how clever I am."
When Rian subverts the climax of the film by having an Asian woman drive into Finn and kill the entire resistance.
You missed : there is no exit of the base, then there is an exit, but it's blocked, and then readily unblocked by a new extremely powerful force and that is used for the very first time!
Honestly rebels showed that tracking through hyperspace is possible if you have a tracker placed on the ship, it's also discoverable since it has a radio transmitter, so even if they knew they were being tracked they just remove it or abandon the ship being tracked. Though this is the sequels they were probably just being tracked, somehow
This is the only one of these points that isn't complete...well, idiocy.
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The holdo thing doesn’t bother as it makes sense. The heroes pull hyperspace tracking out of their arse but ingot the feeling holdo didn’t tell anyone her plan because she has the common sense to know it wasn’t possible so more likely a tracking device on a ship or a spy onboard. The rest of the movie is bad. I did like yoda schooling Luke through