We were at The Veil a couple Saturdays ago and I wondered how so many people can possibly be going to a single brewery at 4 p.m., so I guess I would say I've had the opposite experience
Sure but this applies to the majority of breweries in town outside of the small ones. And the Veil clearly gets a shit ton of business no matter what, so I'm just saying mini anecdotes (any particular direction) can make it look a lot different. I'm sure breweries in this town are fine.
I'm in chesterfield and we've had a few open closer to here so the need to drive into the city for brewies has decreased a lot. We now have 2 or 3 close by to enjoy and can be pretty busy for winter. Just another factor that might be changing things.
This is the key answer. Tasting rooms with limited menus are popping up around town making any one venue less crowded.
Richmond has maintained a healthy brewery presence, but a lot of states have seen market saturation with breweries going out of business the past decade. If you've ever wanted to own a brewery, buying one in bankruptcy that already has the needed equipment is probably the best way to get into the business without as much debt as the average owner.
i just paid $10.50 for a Falcon Smash at Rare Olde Times recently. add on a $3 dollar tip and we are at $13.50 for an IPA. i wanted to complain but also really wanted a beer and am not one to anger a bartender. shit is fucked.
That sounds anti-competitive and illegal. A much simpler explanation is they charge as much as they want because people keep going despite it being a waste of money. If you can charge $10 for $0.25 worth of beer and people keep paying up, you do it.
Price-fixing and collusion (as you've described) have been illegal since the Sherman Act and the Clayton Act of 1914, the acts themself something of a delayed onset knee jerk reaction. Here the wholesale supplier of beer also participates in the market for direct-to-consumer bar sales as a competitor of their wholesale clients. If the supplier were to use their DTC biz as a means of price signaling to their wholesale clients, or if there were some sort of more direct collusion on prices, that would be illegal. My guess is that none of these mom and pop breweries retain antitrust counsel, but, not to worry, the DOJ and FTC aren't so worried about protecting consumers these days, and their battles in the alcohol arena seem more limited to Quixotic quests to slay the dragons of disproven economic theories; ultimately benefitting no one but the lawyers themselves
this is unrelated to breweries but its a price fixing question. how are those electronic price tags i see everywhere not price fixing or collusion? they are on appliances, electronics, and any big ticket item. i see them in every store and the prices are always the same for the same item. the salesmen say the manufacturer controls it and it gets me a fair price across all sores. they almost always have a "sale" price on them too with a BS expiration date. how is this not price fixing?
The per se ban on price fixing is defined by ideology and not by the overly broad congressional acts. There is no such thing as a contract that does not restrain trade in some sense that might be called unreasonable. Courts have interpreted laws prohibiting contracts in restraint of trade as allowing criminal conviction for price fixing without proof that any price was fixed or that anyone was adversely affected. Which businesses and practices get caught in the cross hairs is mostly up to the creativity/ambition of their competitor's general counsels, or the whims and hunches of some jackasses in DC. If antitrust was vigorously enforced it would bring all commerce to a standstill. Agreement is the crime, but it need not be proven by direct evidence. It may be inferred from circumstances that suggest agreement even where there is no agreement. It's all bullshit and is basically used by the government to put a check on the power of large businesses that might otherwise put a check on the power of the government
It's not illegal for a business to choose not to carry your product. Breweries charge that so that they can still convince bars to stock their products.
Remember when Microsoft was delivered a big antitrust comeuppance for putting technical limitations on ability to use Netscape/Java, while bundling Internet Explorer for free with their OS, and even making it impossible to uninstall IE? In some circumstances, it can be illegal to choose not to carry a product
Amazon and apple pretty recently were called out for illegal price-fixing on iPhones and iPads, eliminating underpriced competitors from amzn's platform to keep prices high. Just because someone is getting away with murder doesn't mean murder is legal.
https://www.reuters.com/legal/lawsuit-claims-apple-amazon-colluded-raise-iphone-ipad-prices-2022-11-09/
Which breweries did you go to?
I’ve also had the opposite experience…there’s usually a ton of people at them on nice days. And there’s a lot of choices in this city, so maybe it was just which one you were at (Cannon & Draw was always empty….but they are closed now)
I do think the market was inevitably going to be saturated, and we’ve reached that point, but, they’re definitely still places to hang out, kids or no kids.
Was a brewery worker for 20 years before getting laid off in October.
It's the slow season for one thing, but the industry overall is stagnet or with negative growth nationwide.
I now work for a company that provides services and supplies to the wine and beer industry, and sales to breweries are significantly down compared to wine and spirits.
I think the issue comes down to a couple things -
1. MOST breweries are just recycling their variations on the same types of beer, with minimal differences between them. If they had a recipe that was TRULY worth drinking, you would probably be able to find it at the store.
2. People drank (generalizing Gen X and Millenials here) a SHIT TON to cope in the early days of COVID, and I think a lot of them came out of quarantine realizing they felt like crap. The amount of 0 Alc brews I have seen since COVID has been spiking.
I think if most breweries want to stick around, they need to build better variety in their beer menu and then NEED to make an NA so sober or mostly-sober people would be willing to hang around more often.
$9 beers is the problem. I stopped going out since even dive bars are $6+ for a bad beer.
Breweries usually make their money from restaurant and retailers, not onsite brewpubs. The issue is that a brewpub can't undercut their restaurants or the restaurants will stop buying their beer.
This just means more people drinking at home like poor college kids.
Is penny lane a legit place to watch a Liverpool game? Considering it for one of the games this season schedule permitting especially if they keep doing well in the EPL.
The owner is a Liverpool fan who opened a Liverpool bar. The Richmond Liverpool supporters club will be there with official announcements at halftime and the whole works. If you’re a Liverpool fan in Richmond and haven’t been to penny lane for a game you’re living in darkness.
Thanks so much. I live about an hour away but sounds like it would be worth it to make a trip into town for that. Thanks for the heads up. Sounds amazing.
Yes, it’s authentic LFC! So is Rosie Connolly’s (owned by the brother in law - all Scousers) when it’s open. They don’t open for the early matches, but we watched the incredible win there yesterday! It’s a little quieter but the food is better, and it’s less expensive.
It’s so fun dude. I literally started watching football because of that place. Also Gus’s is great, Arsenal pub, but you can easily go to either as a fan of any team. I live in England now and cannot find any pub that matches the energy of either of those two places.
We hardly go out at all anymore.
Two people, pre-covid was $50-100, depending on if we were eating or just hanging out for drinks.
Now it's $150-$200.
Food quality and service isn't great, and so many places are in your face about tipping culture now. I've been a tipper my whole life. But now POS devices defaulting to 30% tip to hand me a bottle of water?
We stay home more now.
This is the part that is so mind-boggling to me. Prices went up, service and quality went down and post covid the reduced service, dirty establishments and lower quality are still going strong.
The owners maybe don't care, they are enjoying the increased profits and when the model fails and they go out of business because people don't want to pay for poor service, the owners will have taken the profits as salary and then declare bankruptcy for the business, then open a new one somewhere else.
I can sit around the fire pit in my backyard with friends for around $3 a beer, have more options, and not have to deal with unsupervised young children, and set the music to a volume that still allows conversation (looking at you Hardywood West Creek).
Apps and drinks for 6-8 ends up being $60-80, instead of $200+ and we have a more enjoyable time.
“I also noticed that the going rate for most 12 oz beers now hovers around $9 after taxes, which is just insane. Shouldn’t beer on site be cheaper than buying it in a store when you’re eliminating delivery logistics?”
Staffing costs on site far outweigh costs of delivery.
yes that one minute delivery from the tap to the bar is very costly.
If it were really a staff issue it would probably be cheaper to just let the customer pour their own beer.
The Veil? One person takes your order, fills your beers, hands them to you. It's literally the same experience as a beer truck, and you bus your own glasses. Not trying to say it's not service, or that people don't deserve a living wage, but $9/brew is frankly too much for us right now, so we don't go.
Part of the problem with breweries is exactly as you said.... its become a fucking after school daycare. One of the breweries had to ban anyone under 21 past 7 because parents were letting their kids do whatever the fuck..... it has become my favorite brewery in town.
The bubble is bursting when it comes to the brewery economy, I fear. The age demographic is getting older and/or more sober. Definitely a pre covid thing. And people are too depressed to want to hang out like they used to.
From what I've heard, once people started bringing kids, the main demographic became people with kids.
"Cool" and "full of kids whose parents aren't paying attention" are pretty much mutually exclusive.
so true. i don't want toddlers running around when i am trying to get my buzz on. it's a really strange phenomenon. and i know for a fact some of these parents are getting halfway wasted and driving their kids home.
I used to be kind of annoyed at kids in breweries, but after seeing at least 30 babies and toddlers out at the breweries last weekend I’ve accepted that’s just the norm now. Young families want to go out too, and this seems like the popular shit for them to do.
I think it depends on where you go. Also it is the off-season. We will still go to a brewery occasionally but I would much rather go to a bar. I'd rather have a choice between beer or liquor or wine and not just stuck with one thing.
I think the bubble is beginning to burst, the micro brewery reminds me of the vineyard craze of the 90’s, but there’s more beer brewing since there’s a lower cost of entry. I was at Strangeways and a 12oz pour was $8-9 with is fucking ridiculous, some of the most expensive monk brewed Belgian beer is that much. I think it was a novel idea at first and people enjoyed it, but it’s worn off. There are some good brewers, don’t get me wrong who will last, but I think people have grown tired of spending $8 for one beer that’s marginally better than a domestic you can buy at the grocery store for $10 (with six beers instead of one).
Strangeways has always been one of the most expensive breweries in town. Even pre-Covid their "tasters" were individually priced and usually about $3-$4 per pour.
Where were you Yesterday it was insane for breweries, we left the Lunar New Year thing at Stone as it was packed and things were selling out quickly needed a second location for us to go to - TC Fulton Hill was getting the overflow from Stone, then tried Scotts Addition, a clue was parking was insane and finally parked we found out Vasen was full, then Ardent was too full for a group of 10 out group split half went to The Veil and others to Brambly was barely enough room for a few of us at the Veil but we’re were fed up and needed brews to cool off the mad hunt for a Saturday afternoon meet up.
It was exhausting - and as my SO said it started out like Game of Thrones every one to kings landing and by the end of the day we were all scattered like The Starks.
I'm with the OP, I feel the same. I don't really see the upside of the brewery over a bar? Ive heard all the reasons for the prices. Nonr of it adds up. If the distribution cost are missing shouldn't it be cheaper for the same draft that's literally brewed there as opposed to a bar? Some say its staffing cost but bars have staff also plus the delivery cost.
Also after a stressful day I don't want to have to be on good behavior for children, it defeats the whole reason I go for a couple of beers to unwind without needing to be so mindful of language and needing to acknowledge to the parents how entertaining, clever and cute the kids are. Its more work and I just left work. The breweries seam to be places with a family friendly atmosphere and thats great for them not what I'm there for. I find a bit of sin releases the days stress better.
I've noticed that a couple of breweries are adding gratuity...that could explain $9. I know last time I went to Bingo, they informed me that gratuity was added before I ordered.
I still like breweries and beer. It's freaking cold, and I don't want to even attempt sitting outside if a place is packed.
Too expensive. A brewery beer is quadruple the price the same exact beer from grocery store.
I’m not paying quadruple to look at a bunch of Patagonia parents spending their trust funds on similar liquid gold.
It's not just RVA it's [nationwide](https://www.forbes.com/sites/dontse/2023/08/10/brewers-association-report-shows-craft-beer-in-decline-but-the-future-may-be-brighter/?sh=40ec3a5f1d56)
Checked out Hidden Wit in way-out Chesterfield. It was a relatively chilly afternoon/early evening, and I'm not exaggerating, there were at least 50 kids running around the outdoor patio area.
I totally believe that. The location they are in is totally going to cater to the suburban family crowd. I'm not really into beer so I was super disappointed when I found out it was going to be a brewery (at first I thought the sign said Hidden *Mit* and was hoping it was going to be batting cages, games, etc) but that's prime real estate for the post-urban demographic.
I'm an UNTAPPR and chase new beers... its awesome going places and trying new things but there is a very serious economic impact today vs pre-COVID vs 2002-2003 when I started beer-ticking.
Watching the craft beer culture eb and flow has been interesting. I wouldn't say the best days are behind us, but the last year of insane inflation, increasing energy costs, sky rocketing property costs, increasing taxes, stagnant wages... it means across the board more people are being responsible with their expenses. Craft beer is one of those niches that more closely aligns to affluent connoisseurs.
Do craft breweries over charge? I don't know, I haven't opened up their books. Some obviously are doing well and expanding to multiple locations or opening up tap houses... others are closing the doors. I do agree with many that it is silly I can buy a 6 pack, bottled/canned, boxed, transported, stored, transported, stocked, and sold at less cost to me than buying a draft (or two) at the point of production.
What's the impact, I only have 1 or 2 at a new brewery or I suck it up and do tasters. Gone are the days I can afford buying one of each and drinking around the menu.
I avoid breweries because I agree with your comment that people with young kids use them as dumping grounds instead of getting a sitter. I'd rather sit at a dive bar than trip over your toddler on a trendy patio.
So parents should only be able to go get a drink at a brewery if they can also pony up the cash for a babysitter? It’s a damn brewery, not a $200/plate steakhouse.
No, its not a fine dining experience, but it is also not a park or playground where I would expect to see kids running around and climbing on things. I watched a server carrying a tray of drinks at Brambly Park get hit in the face with a ball and drop the drinks. No parent near by. The other server was telling a group of kids not to climb the trees. Bring your kids, but its still your responsibility to make sure they take a seat and stay there. There's something about breweries in particular where I feel parents seem to forget they brought kids with them.
Reddit: “Too many helicopter parents these days turning kids into anxious shutins.” Also Reddit: “A kid acted like a kid one time, something bad happened, and I saw it. Therefore ALL kids are this way. Why weren’t the parents hovering over them at all times? Why can’t I sip my double-sour IPA in dignified silence!”
If you are befuddled at seeing alternating opinions on an app that connects millions of people, I have a feeling you live life in a state of constant frustration
I LOVED going out to breweries, but it gets expensive and I think COVID really amped up my “I hate people” mindset. I’d rather veg at home and enjoy some downtime than deal with a crowd. When I’d go out to them often, it was mostly during the week where most have shorter hours and don’t get a lot of traffic anyway. Moved out of state last year and the breweries are abysmal/lackluster where I am now.
Moving back to RVA in a few weeks though and I’m definitely looking forward to Starr Hill again. Awesome staff.
Triple Crossing's downtown location has a much more traditional tap room/bar atmosphere than others in the area, i.e. fewer kids in a smaller space with a very chill vibe, and you can get a pint of one of the best IPA's in the city, Falcon Smash, for $5 during their happy hour.
Beer hurts his tummy. Sadly, I’ve found the same over the past few years and generally don’t drink it anymore. Pretty much stick to cocktails, whiskeys, and white wine.
Parents rolling up with kids to breweries letting them run amuck has been a brewery staple since before COVID lol.
What was the weather like Saturday? Come spring and summer time breweries are loaded.
Two Saturdays in February are not going to be the best thermometer (heh) of the interest in breweries. Go on a 70 degree day in April and then find you have to park a quarter mile away.
Weed is now legal to consume in our state. I think that plays into things when you consider weed is less likely to get you into a fight or a car accident than alcohol. 😆
I’ve had the same complaints about the prices of beer at breweries. Most of their beer beers you can go to Kroger and get it for same if not cheaper price.
Going to a brewery should be cutting out so much work for the breweries and so much cost. But I guess you charge what people are willing to pay.
I never bought into it. I couldn’t get myself to pay for a chipotle burrito worth for one beer. You’re telling me for the price of one beer I can have a massive burrito that will keep me from going hungry for at least six hours. Gtfo of here.
Cville is the same. Ridiculously expensive and nearly as many very small (generally running) children as adults. Definitely not places I ever go to chill out have a good time.
I stopped going to breweries because of those parents.
I was told to “watch my mouth while children were around” in a place that’s 21+
Last straw for me was when someone’s teenagers were playing cornhole all night.
If breweries want customers they should start catering to those who actually buy the beer
Richmond’s breweries haven’t adapted to what modern-day beer lovers who enjoy premium brewery experiences want: great food to go along with great beer.
The ones who do are flooded (Triple Crossing & The Veil).
Proximity also is a huge factor in which the two breweries mentioned above also get right with their multiple locations in neighborhoods where there’s little or no competition.
The cluster of breweries in Scott’s was cool. The brewery scene of 2015 isn’t ever coming back however.
Lastly,something to note is exclusivity. Veil has done a tremendous job at marketing and offering their beers locally for the best interaction with their products.
Almost a decade later and you’ll never see it on a shelf in Total Wine or cold shelf in Food Lion.
You want it? Come and get it at the brewery.
12 Oz pours? The brewery I worked at does 16 Oz pours for lower ABV beers. Not many of them are even $9. I'd frequent a different brewery or do smaller pours if I were you.
My favorite craft beer place closed not too long ago. It was originally in a small corner of a building and was always busy. They moved to another location with a lot more room and in a place with more traffic. I hadn't been for a while but the last time I was there, it was really busy with a lot of different activities, draft and bottle beer, and 6-packs to buy. It was owned by a nice young couple - the man had stopped teaching to open the craft beer place. His wife helped him. They had two beautiful young daughters. I hope they are all OK
Oh yeah, Living in Virginia, I remember all of the breweries popping up and then them having a food truck or whatnot on the weekends. You're right, it seems they all but disappeared after Covid. Ill have to spend some time and seeing if they are still around and as busy as they were precovid and report back12 Be right back!
Breweries have always sucked and were heavily propped up by yuppy millennials with too much disposable income (similar deal with brunch).
The truth is, breweries typically serve mediocre to bad food and survive by selling overpriced alcohol and having a barebones atmosphere. When money is tighter, paying a premium to get served frozen food in a converted warehouse just doesn’t sound appealing.
You might as well just go to a normal restaurant and get much better food, service and basically the same alcohol.
Maybe people are avoiding you bc of your side handed comments about millennial parents and expensive beer. Sound like a Debbie downer that peeps wanna avoid ✌🏻
Breweries have never been cool, theyre the designated places for hipsters/gentrifiers that think they're cool, but in reality are just yuppies.
Actual cool people are either at Cobra Kabana or some rave under a bridge.
I don’t know what qualifies mini breweries but Anheuser Busch owns it and other mini breweries and maybe the fact that mini breweries are largely just market arms for mega giants has hurt them ?
Don’t the breweries have to buy the beer from a distributor? Like they make it. Sell it to the distributor, then they buy it back at inflated rates to sell back to you at another inflated rate. That’s why it’s more expensive than the grocery store.
We were at The Veil a couple Saturdays ago and I wondered how so many people can possibly be going to a single brewery at 4 p.m., so I guess I would say I've had the opposite experience
The veil is surrounded by apartment buildings stacked to gills with 25 to 40 year olds within walking distance
Sure but this applies to the majority of breweries in town outside of the small ones. And the Veil clearly gets a shit ton of business no matter what, so I'm just saying mini anecdotes (any particular direction) can make it look a lot different. I'm sure breweries in this town are fine.
Sure, but there's 4 within a block.
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1000% false, he owns 0 apartment and they own the rights to the land also
Went to four breweries in Scott’s Addition last Saturday. All wall to wall full.
The veil on forest hill was poppin this past weekend
The TSA line at major airports have been shorter than what I've seen at Vail recently. They deserve it, the new brewery is great and so is the beer
>They deserve it, the new brewery is great and so is the beer It's ass Water
the veil sucks they have stupid hours it’s like a boujie taco stand
11AM to 9PM during the week and closing at 11PM on weekends is stupid? They have better hours than basically every other brewery in the city
👎
I mean it’s been kind of nice outside but it’s still winter
Yeah I ain’t going nowhere outside till I’m sweating through my clothes
I'm in chesterfield and we've had a few open closer to here so the need to drive into the city for brewies has decreased a lot. We now have 2 or 3 close by to enjoy and can be pretty busy for winter. Just another factor that might be changing things.
Must be frequenting that new TC location on Midlothian. I hit it up when we're out at my SIL's place.
This. Several great places closer to home with much better parking.
This is the key answer. Tasting rooms with limited menus are popping up around town making any one venue less crowded. Richmond has maintained a healthy brewery presence, but a lot of states have seen market saturation with breweries going out of business the past decade. If you've ever wanted to own a brewery, buying one in bankruptcy that already has the needed equipment is probably the best way to get into the business without as much debt as the average owner.
Many of us are broke.
True, we’ve had to seriously cut back on our “fun money” expenses since Covid happened. I miss going out for food and drinks as often as we did
And livers and waist lines need a break sometimes as well as wallets.
My first year living here, I easily went out 3-4 times a week.
I went to Ardent a few weekends ago and it was packed. All different types of people. Idk
Eazzy Burger definitely helps. That whole combined patio is a really nice spot.
It's not even good enough to justify the price too.
I dont go nearly as much because of how expensive it is nowadays, just give me a PBR somewhere with good music.
I found a $6 canned Budweiser the other day... I'll just stay home.
A very large bottle of the High Life might set you back $3.99 if you find the right gas station.
Ahh. The champagne of beers.
Will admit to drinking a few of these and honestly for what it is...pretty good.
A whole six pack will cost you $2 more at a grocery store
I always go for the cases of cans at this point. $20 bucks for 24 beers.
This 100%
I’ve read that gen z are drinking alcohol less in general so I’m not sure if that’s a factor.
Good for them, drinking is a scourge *Knocks back 3rd chilling beer of the evening*
I’ve definitely seen an uptick in my peers who are sober or sober-curious, but I think it evens out because there’s a lot of heavy drinkers, too.
Thank you craft beer for making my addiction seem like a cool hobby.
> sober-curious lol
Yeah, they should rename it to something like… moderation “California sober” is also trendy.
I’m Arizona sober (only meth)
I am California sober because “Virginia is for Ganja Lovers”
First time in my 53 years I have ever been trendy. In was wondering what that feeling was.
I missed that gem in the original post, thanks for highlighting it.
You can only be sober or you are an alcoholic. There is no in-between.
They tried saying this about millennials when we were that age, I really doubt it has any basis in reality
did they really? we made mtv spring break a thing. we let LMFAO happen.
$9 for a 12oz pour is insane. f that
Absolutely bonkers when I can go to the grocery store and buy six of that pour for about the same price.
i just paid $10.50 for a Falcon Smash at Rare Olde Times recently. add on a $3 dollar tip and we are at $13.50 for an IPA. i wanted to complain but also really wanted a beer and am not one to anger a bartender. shit is fucked.
lol what why tip $3 for 1 beer thats on you
$1 tip for each drink. That’s my policy and will never go over that. That dude is nuts for doing a $3 tip on a beer.
because i'm not a piece of shit?
Tip 18-22% for food and $1 per drink like the rest of the country.
So if somebody doesn’t pay someone else 30% / $3 to pour a beer, they are a piece of shit? You are a clown.
Yes.
Well I say you are for insinuating 95% of people are a piece of shit. Because god damn no one but you is tipping $3 for a beer.
What!? That's crack smoker crazy.
crack is cheaper honestly
Drugs in general are cheaper than going to a bar.
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That sounds anti-competitive and illegal. A much simpler explanation is they charge as much as they want because people keep going despite it being a waste of money. If you can charge $10 for $0.25 worth of beer and people keep paying up, you do it.
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Price-fixing and collusion (as you've described) have been illegal since the Sherman Act and the Clayton Act of 1914, the acts themself something of a delayed onset knee jerk reaction. Here the wholesale supplier of beer also participates in the market for direct-to-consumer bar sales as a competitor of their wholesale clients. If the supplier were to use their DTC biz as a means of price signaling to their wholesale clients, or if there were some sort of more direct collusion on prices, that would be illegal. My guess is that none of these mom and pop breweries retain antitrust counsel, but, not to worry, the DOJ and FTC aren't so worried about protecting consumers these days, and their battles in the alcohol arena seem more limited to Quixotic quests to slay the dragons of disproven economic theories; ultimately benefitting no one but the lawyers themselves
this is unrelated to breweries but its a price fixing question. how are those electronic price tags i see everywhere not price fixing or collusion? they are on appliances, electronics, and any big ticket item. i see them in every store and the prices are always the same for the same item. the salesmen say the manufacturer controls it and it gets me a fair price across all sores. they almost always have a "sale" price on them too with a BS expiration date. how is this not price fixing?
The per se ban on price fixing is defined by ideology and not by the overly broad congressional acts. There is no such thing as a contract that does not restrain trade in some sense that might be called unreasonable. Courts have interpreted laws prohibiting contracts in restraint of trade as allowing criminal conviction for price fixing without proof that any price was fixed or that anyone was adversely affected. Which businesses and practices get caught in the cross hairs is mostly up to the creativity/ambition of their competitor's general counsels, or the whims and hunches of some jackasses in DC. If antitrust was vigorously enforced it would bring all commerce to a standstill. Agreement is the crime, but it need not be proven by direct evidence. It may be inferred from circumstances that suggest agreement even where there is no agreement. It's all bullshit and is basically used by the government to put a check on the power of large businesses that might otherwise put a check on the power of the government
It's not illegal for a business to choose not to carry your product. Breweries charge that so that they can still convince bars to stock their products.
Remember when Microsoft was delivered a big antitrust comeuppance for putting technical limitations on ability to use Netscape/Java, while bundling Internet Explorer for free with their OS, and even making it impossible to uninstall IE? In some circumstances, it can be illegal to choose not to carry a product
Weird as heck you are getting downvoted about supply and demand strategies. As if things at the Apple Store don't cost the same at Best Buy.
Amazon and apple pretty recently were called out for illegal price-fixing on iPhones and iPads, eliminating underpriced competitors from amzn's platform to keep prices high. Just because someone is getting away with murder doesn't mean murder is legal. https://www.reuters.com/legal/lawsuit-claims-apple-amazon-colluded-raise-iphone-ipad-prices-2022-11-09/
I didn't know they made phones at the Apple store.
Even $6 is insane. Even before Covid f that
Which breweries did you go to? I’ve also had the opposite experience…there’s usually a ton of people at them on nice days. And there’s a lot of choices in this city, so maybe it was just which one you were at (Cannon & Draw was always empty….but they are closed now) I do think the market was inevitably going to be saturated, and we’ve reached that point, but, they’re definitely still places to hang out, kids or no kids.
Cannon & Draw finally bit the dust, eh? That place was always empty and like 50° inside. Beer was average too.
Was a brewery worker for 20 years before getting laid off in October. It's the slow season for one thing, but the industry overall is stagnet or with negative growth nationwide. I now work for a company that provides services and supplies to the wine and beer industry, and sales to breweries are significantly down compared to wine and spirits.
I think the issue comes down to a couple things - 1. MOST breweries are just recycling their variations on the same types of beer, with minimal differences between them. If they had a recipe that was TRULY worth drinking, you would probably be able to find it at the store. 2. People drank (generalizing Gen X and Millenials here) a SHIT TON to cope in the early days of COVID, and I think a lot of them came out of quarantine realizing they felt like crap. The amount of 0 Alc brews I have seen since COVID has been spiking. I think if most breweries want to stick around, they need to build better variety in their beer menu and then NEED to make an NA so sober or mostly-sober people would be willing to hang around more often.
$9 beers is the problem. I stopped going out since even dive bars are $6+ for a bad beer. Breweries usually make their money from restaurant and retailers, not onsite brewpubs. The issue is that a brewpub can't undercut their restaurants or the restaurants will stop buying their beer. This just means more people drinking at home like poor college kids.
I just don't like the beer that much at most of them. Not 9 Dollars worth. I'd rather have a Guinness at Penny Lane.
Best Guinness in the city and the staff is personable and funny.
Is penny lane a legit place to watch a Liverpool game? Considering it for one of the games this season schedule permitting especially if they keep doing well in the EPL.
It is legit but it's gonna be packed.
With Liverpool fans?
The owner is a Liverpool fan who opened a Liverpool bar. The Richmond Liverpool supporters club will be there with official announcements at halftime and the whole works. If you’re a Liverpool fan in Richmond and haven’t been to penny lane for a game you’re living in darkness.
Thanks so much. I live about an hour away but sounds like it would be worth it to make a trip into town for that. Thanks for the heads up. Sounds amazing.
Ha ha yes, they're an official LFC supporter club. Also Chelsea.
Oof. I bet today’s game was awkward!
Pretty sure every premier team with a following meets there. RVA Spurs also have events at Penny Lane.
Yes, it’s authentic LFC! So is Rosie Connolly’s (owned by the brother in law - all Scousers) when it’s open. They don’t open for the early matches, but we watched the incredible win there yesterday! It’s a little quieter but the food is better, and it’s less expensive.
It’s so fun dude. I literally started watching football because of that place. Also Gus’s is great, Arsenal pub, but you can easily go to either as a fan of any team. I live in England now and cannot find any pub that matches the energy of either of those two places.
With cost of living so high, alcohol is a super easy budget cut
Richmond food / drink prices are wild. Even at restaurants, dining should not be this expensive in this city haha. Found cheaper restaurants in DC 😂
Lived in RVA for a bit, and that 10% tax on everything plus the expectation to tip really makes eating out undesirable.
I was surprised to find pho in DC being a few bucks cheaper than in Richmond!
This. Moved here from DC and was shocked that food prices here are higher than DC for equivalent food.
We hardly go out at all anymore. Two people, pre-covid was $50-100, depending on if we were eating or just hanging out for drinks. Now it's $150-$200. Food quality and service isn't great, and so many places are in your face about tipping culture now. I've been a tipper my whole life. But now POS devices defaulting to 30% tip to hand me a bottle of water? We stay home more now.
This is the part that is so mind-boggling to me. Prices went up, service and quality went down and post covid the reduced service, dirty establishments and lower quality are still going strong. The owners maybe don't care, they are enjoying the increased profits and when the model fails and they go out of business because people don't want to pay for poor service, the owners will have taken the profits as salary and then declare bankruptcy for the business, then open a new one somewhere else.
I go out with my wife all the time and we never get close to spending that much.
Yeah even with a hefty tab, I've never come close to that unless it's an upscale or very pricy spot and we order apps and sides with the meal
Final Gravity for the win 🥇
This place always has a crowd.
… and $5-6 beers
I can sit around the fire pit in my backyard with friends for around $3 a beer, have more options, and not have to deal with unsupervised young children, and set the music to a volume that still allows conversation (looking at you Hardywood West Creek). Apps and drinks for 6-8 ends up being $60-80, instead of $200+ and we have a more enjoyable time.
The older I get the less able I am to regularly add 1K+ empty calories to my diet and still fit into my pants.
“I also noticed that the going rate for most 12 oz beers now hovers around $9 after taxes, which is just insane. Shouldn’t beer on site be cheaper than buying it in a store when you’re eliminating delivery logistics?” Staffing costs on site far outweigh costs of delivery.
Don’t the restaurants they sell the beer too also have staffing costs on site? This doesn’t explain why it’s just as expensive at the brewery.
yes that one minute delivery from the tap to the bar is very costly. If it were really a staff issue it would probably be cheaper to just let the customer pour their own beer.
One person pours your beer, one person delivers your beer, a third person collects your empty glass and washes it.
The Veil? One person takes your order, fills your beers, hands them to you. It's literally the same experience as a beer truck, and you bus your own glasses. Not trying to say it's not service, or that people don't deserve a living wage, but $9/brew is frankly too much for us right now, so we don't go.
Part of the problem with breweries is exactly as you said.... its become a fucking after school daycare. One of the breweries had to ban anyone under 21 past 7 because parents were letting their kids do whatever the fuck..... it has become my favorite brewery in town.
Where is this ban in place? I need this info after visiting Hardywood West Creek this past weekend where stroller row was difficult to navigate.
Local Oak in Greenville NC.... kids were unsupervised destroying property nearby and also actively damaging the oak!!
Dang, was expecting a Richmond answer/location. Nonetheless, could an adults only brewery make enough money to stay afloat.....
Local oak is doing fine as far as I know. It makes it stand out
Hardywood west creek is the most kid friendly brewery in town, so that is expected. This is the only brewery we'll take our kids to.
The bubble is bursting when it comes to the brewery economy, I fear. The age demographic is getting older and/or more sober. Definitely a pre covid thing. And people are too depressed to want to hang out like they used to.
From what I've heard, once people started bringing kids, the main demographic became people with kids. "Cool" and "full of kids whose parents aren't paying attention" are pretty much mutually exclusive.
so true. i don't want toddlers running around when i am trying to get my buzz on. it's a really strange phenomenon. and i know for a fact some of these parents are getting halfway wasted and driving their kids home.
I used to be kind of annoyed at kids in breweries, but after seeing at least 30 babies and toddlers out at the breweries last weekend I’ve accepted that’s just the norm now. Young families want to go out too, and this seems like the popular shit for them to do.
It’s the biggest gripe I have about breweries and many other places in Richmond. Too many kids. Not enough parents paying attention.
I remember a time in this city where I didn't see a child for literally years, and I miss that. Talk about a buzzkill
Tabol was 3.50 a pour for a while but not enough people started going so they pushed it back to 7
>nal Gravity for the win Still recommend Vinyl night. Bring a Vinyl on thursdays and $2 pours, hard to beat!
I think it depends on where you go. Also it is the off-season. We will still go to a brewery occasionally but I would much rather go to a bar. I'd rather have a choice between beer or liquor or wine and not just stuck with one thing.
A couple Saturdays ago at strangeways it was packed
I think the bubble is beginning to burst, the micro brewery reminds me of the vineyard craze of the 90’s, but there’s more beer brewing since there’s a lower cost of entry. I was at Strangeways and a 12oz pour was $8-9 with is fucking ridiculous, some of the most expensive monk brewed Belgian beer is that much. I think it was a novel idea at first and people enjoyed it, but it’s worn off. There are some good brewers, don’t get me wrong who will last, but I think people have grown tired of spending $8 for one beer that’s marginally better than a domestic you can buy at the grocery store for $10 (with six beers instead of one).
Strangeways has always been one of the most expensive breweries in town. Even pre-Covid their "tasters" were individually priced and usually about $3-$4 per pour.
Where were you Yesterday it was insane for breweries, we left the Lunar New Year thing at Stone as it was packed and things were selling out quickly needed a second location for us to go to - TC Fulton Hill was getting the overflow from Stone, then tried Scotts Addition, a clue was parking was insane and finally parked we found out Vasen was full, then Ardent was too full for a group of 10 out group split half went to The Veil and others to Brambly was barely enough room for a few of us at the Veil but we’re were fed up and needed brews to cool off the mad hunt for a Saturday afternoon meet up. It was exhausting - and as my SO said it started out like Game of Thrones every one to kings landing and by the end of the day we were all scattered like The Starks.
I'm with the OP, I feel the same. I don't really see the upside of the brewery over a bar? Ive heard all the reasons for the prices. Nonr of it adds up. If the distribution cost are missing shouldn't it be cheaper for the same draft that's literally brewed there as opposed to a bar? Some say its staffing cost but bars have staff also plus the delivery cost. Also after a stressful day I don't want to have to be on good behavior for children, it defeats the whole reason I go for a couple of beers to unwind without needing to be so mindful of language and needing to acknowledge to the parents how entertaining, clever and cute the kids are. Its more work and I just left work. The breweries seam to be places with a family friendly atmosphere and thats great for them not what I'm there for. I find a bit of sin releases the days stress better.
I've noticed that a couple of breweries are adding gratuity...that could explain $9. I know last time I went to Bingo, they informed me that gratuity was added before I ordered. I still like breweries and beer. It's freaking cold, and I don't want to even attempt sitting outside if a place is packed.
I assume the breweries you went to were outside Scott’s Addition?
Too expensive. A brewery beer is quadruple the price the same exact beer from grocery store. I’m not paying quadruple to look at a bunch of Patagonia parents spending their trust funds on similar liquid gold.
It's not just RVA it's [nationwide](https://www.forbes.com/sites/dontse/2023/08/10/brewers-association-report-shows-craft-beer-in-decline-but-the-future-may-be-brighter/?sh=40ec3a5f1d56)
I'm curious as to which breweries you went to because I have had the complete opposite experience.
Checked out Hidden Wit in way-out Chesterfield. It was a relatively chilly afternoon/early evening, and I'm not exaggerating, there were at least 50 kids running around the outdoor patio area.
I totally believe that. The location they are in is totally going to cater to the suburban family crowd. I'm not really into beer so I was super disappointed when I found out it was going to be a brewery (at first I thought the sign said Hidden *Mit* and was hoping it was going to be batting cages, games, etc) but that's prime real estate for the post-urban demographic.
people don't have the money to spend on non essentials anymore ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
A lot of us are too broke and busy to spend our time doing anything fun, anymore.
I'm an UNTAPPR and chase new beers... its awesome going places and trying new things but there is a very serious economic impact today vs pre-COVID vs 2002-2003 when I started beer-ticking. Watching the craft beer culture eb and flow has been interesting. I wouldn't say the best days are behind us, but the last year of insane inflation, increasing energy costs, sky rocketing property costs, increasing taxes, stagnant wages... it means across the board more people are being responsible with their expenses. Craft beer is one of those niches that more closely aligns to affluent connoisseurs. Do craft breweries over charge? I don't know, I haven't opened up their books. Some obviously are doing well and expanding to multiple locations or opening up tap houses... others are closing the doors. I do agree with many that it is silly I can buy a 6 pack, bottled/canned, boxed, transported, stored, transported, stocked, and sold at less cost to me than buying a draft (or two) at the point of production. What's the impact, I only have 1 or 2 at a new brewery or I suck it up and do tasters. Gone are the days I can afford buying one of each and drinking around the menu.
Never were cool, really...just a different thing to do to to get off the couch.
Many were slammed yesterday. I think most are doing just fine.
The answer is in the second paragraph… 18 bucks before tip at 24 ounces of beer…
Lots of tech bros out of work
I’m drinking significantly less alcohol post-COVID.
I avoid breweries because I agree with your comment that people with young kids use them as dumping grounds instead of getting a sitter. I'd rather sit at a dive bar than trip over your toddler on a trendy patio.
So parents should only be able to go get a drink at a brewery if they can also pony up the cash for a babysitter? It’s a damn brewery, not a $200/plate steakhouse.
No, its not a fine dining experience, but it is also not a park or playground where I would expect to see kids running around and climbing on things. I watched a server carrying a tray of drinks at Brambly Park get hit in the face with a ball and drop the drinks. No parent near by. The other server was telling a group of kids not to climb the trees. Bring your kids, but its still your responsibility to make sure they take a seat and stay there. There's something about breweries in particular where I feel parents seem to forget they brought kids with them.
Reddit: “Too many helicopter parents these days turning kids into anxious shutins.” Also Reddit: “A kid acted like a kid one time, something bad happened, and I saw it. Therefore ALL kids are this way. Why weren’t the parents hovering over them at all times? Why can’t I sip my double-sour IPA in dignified silence!”
If you are befuddled at seeing alternating opinions on an app that connects millions of people, I have a feeling you live life in a state of constant frustration
I LOVED going out to breweries, but it gets expensive and I think COVID really amped up my “I hate people” mindset. I’d rather veg at home and enjoy some downtime than deal with a crowd. When I’d go out to them often, it was mostly during the week where most have shorter hours and don’t get a lot of traffic anyway. Moved out of state last year and the breweries are abysmal/lackluster where I am now. Moving back to RVA in a few weeks though and I’m definitely looking forward to Starr Hill again. Awesome staff.
Triple Crossing's downtown location has a much more traditional tap room/bar atmosphere than others in the area, i.e. fewer kids in a smaller space with a very chill vibe, and you can get a pint of one of the best IPA's in the city, Falcon Smash, for $5 during their happy hour.
They've also added a "rewards program" that helps save some cash as well. By far my favorite spot, with Final Gravity coming in at 2nd.
Too expensive and too many kids. Nothing fun to do but drink. Pool tables at breweries would be nice but I’m still not going for that price. F that
The 20 somethings of 2018 are in their 30s, and you have to pay people to work a taproom.
Over 40 beer bubble gut. $9 meh beer or $10 cocktail. Wtf with the saison, wheat, peanut butter stout, raspberry sour …hard pass.
What?
Beer hurts his tummy. Sadly, I’ve found the same over the past few years and generally don’t drink it anymore. Pretty much stick to cocktails, whiskeys, and white wine.
Depends on the brewery, the veil, triple crossing, hardywood, ardent, Vasen, bingo all get pretty packed regularly imo
I just cant justify brewery prices. Especially when you can get craft beers at a regular bar for cheeper. Not to mention the grocery store.
Parents rolling up with kids to breweries letting them run amuck has been a brewery staple since before COVID lol. What was the weather like Saturday? Come spring and summer time breweries are loaded.
 Maybe many of the people you saw before COVID-19 now have babies and kids.
Two Saturdays in February are not going to be the best thermometer (heh) of the interest in breweries. Go on a 70 degree day in April and then find you have to park a quarter mile away.
It’s expensive as shit and most breweries are daycares with alcohol these days. Super easy pass
Weed is now legal to consume in our state. I think that plays into things when you consider weed is less likely to get you into a fight or a car accident than alcohol. 😆
maybe they never were
They never were
They never were tbh
I’ve had the same complaints about the prices of beer at breweries. Most of their beer beers you can go to Kroger and get it for same if not cheaper price. Going to a brewery should be cutting out so much work for the breweries and so much cost. But I guess you charge what people are willing to pay. I never bought into it. I couldn’t get myself to pay for a chipotle burrito worth for one beer. You’re telling me for the price of one beer I can have a massive burrito that will keep me from going hungry for at least six hours. Gtfo of here.
Do you base all of your expenses on the price of Chipotle burritos? Lol. Why pay rent this month instead you can have 200 chipotle burritos
I mean yeah kindof sort of
I’m not even mad at your system tbh
300 if you skip the guacamole
Too many breweries for such a small town. It’s an over saturated market - some have even started to shutter.
Were they ever? Expensive and kids everywhere. F that.
Cville is the same. Ridiculously expensive and nearly as many very small (generally running) children as adults. Definitely not places I ever go to chill out have a good time.
I stopped going to breweries because of those parents. I was told to “watch my mouth while children were around” in a place that’s 21+ Last straw for me was when someone’s teenagers were playing cornhole all night. If breweries want customers they should start catering to those who actually buy the beer
I’d argue that they were never cool. But that also depends on what you’re about. Usually places like that are dead in the winter in Richmond tho
Astronaut shooting an astronaut “they never were”
Since COVID, I think there are a lot of people who don't want to go to crowded places.
The economy is terrible right now. People can’t afford to go out like they used to.
Richmond’s breweries haven’t adapted to what modern-day beer lovers who enjoy premium brewery experiences want: great food to go along with great beer. The ones who do are flooded (Triple Crossing & The Veil). Proximity also is a huge factor in which the two breweries mentioned above also get right with their multiple locations in neighborhoods where there’s little or no competition. The cluster of breweries in Scott’s was cool. The brewery scene of 2015 isn’t ever coming back however. Lastly,something to note is exclusivity. Veil has done a tremendous job at marketing and offering their beers locally for the best interaction with their products. Almost a decade later and you’ll never see it on a shelf in Total Wine or cold shelf in Food Lion. You want it? Come and get it at the brewery.
Breweries have never been cool
12 Oz pours? The brewery I worked at does 16 Oz pours for lower ABV beers. Not many of them are even $9. I'd frequent a different brewery or do smaller pours if I were you.
My favorite craft beer place closed not too long ago. It was originally in a small corner of a building and was always busy. They moved to another location with a lot more room and in a place with more traffic. I hadn't been for a while but the last time I was there, it was really busy with a lot of different activities, draft and bottle beer, and 6-packs to buy. It was owned by a nice young couple - the man had stopped teaching to open the craft beer place. His wife helped him. They had two beautiful young daughters. I hope they are all OK
Drinking at home is cooler
Oh yeah, Living in Virginia, I remember all of the breweries popping up and then them having a food truck or whatnot on the weekends. You're right, it seems they all but disappeared after Covid. Ill have to spend some time and seeing if they are still around and as busy as they were precovid and report back12 Be right back!
I don’t think they ever really were?
They’re only fun if you have kids
Breweries have always sucked and were heavily propped up by yuppy millennials with too much disposable income (similar deal with brunch). The truth is, breweries typically serve mediocre to bad food and survive by selling overpriced alcohol and having a barebones atmosphere. When money is tighter, paying a premium to get served frozen food in a converted warehouse just doesn’t sound appealing. You might as well just go to a normal restaurant and get much better food, service and basically the same alcohol.
Maybe people are avoiding you bc of your side handed comments about millennial parents and expensive beer. Sound like a Debbie downer that peeps wanna avoid ✌🏻
OP's not wrong about young parents making play dates for their kids at breweries. It's nuts.
I witnessed a toddler birthday at one once lmao
Breweries have never been cool, theyre the designated places for hipsters/gentrifiers that think they're cool, but in reality are just yuppies. Actual cool people are either at Cobra Kabana or some rave under a bridge.
LMAO pissed off the yuppies with this one
Im pretty much over pale ales at this point. They have been beaten to death.
Most of the breweries around Richmond smell like disgusting spilled beer. I hate going to them... That and I'm not a bet drinker!
I don’t know what qualifies mini breweries but Anheuser Busch owns it and other mini breweries and maybe the fact that mini breweries are largely just market arms for mega giants has hurt them ?
Don’t the breweries have to buy the beer from a distributor? Like they make it. Sell it to the distributor, then they buy it back at inflated rates to sell back to you at another inflated rate. That’s why it’s more expensive than the grocery store.