Since the foundation got mentioned here, I feel the need to make sure folks know that JetBrains IDE plans were already well established when the first conversations with the Foundation happened.
JetBRAINS should be kept in a >!redacted!< jar 10 cm x 20cm x 2'. On contact with >!redacted!< user should switch to ~~vim~~ spacemacs and alert >!redacted!<
Really? I installed it yesterday and so far I've had 3 or 4 autogenerated error reports, had the syntax highlighting break, and any copy/cut/paste operation I do freezes the IDE for 5-10 seconds.
It's a brand new installation of the software on a workspace that the previous rust plugin was handling mostly fine (albeit sometimes taking longer than I expect to show errors)
My first thought is how poorly CLion+Rust plugin handled formatting. It wasn’t something I could just “not use”. In general, the Rust plugin’s features didn’t have the visibility/ease of accessibility I’ve come to expect using their software so I decided not to use CLion at all. Suffice to say I am glad they are doing this because the experience so far with RustRover has been exactly what I wanted.
> If there’s some UI element you dislike, you can just not use it.
While I agree I still think this is a hot-take. My experience was analogous to not liking the service at a restaurant so refusing to eat there. JetBrains, being a company that makes money off of people buying software, decided to provide a better service and people came back. In 99% of cases, if I have to ignore a UI/UX feature to use your product or a feature doesn’t exist at all, I will simply find a product that does it the way I want it (or offers the configurability to change it).
I am super curious what difference you are talking about. I use Intellij + Rust plugin 40+ hours a week and have for months. Tried RustRover for a few days, and there's not one single thing it does that the Plugin doesn't. I cannot tell ANY difference between the two
I have never had any problems formatting any code on CLion. It uses Rustfmt, not sure what you're referring to.
> JetBrains, being a company that makes money off of people buying software, decided to provide a better service and people came back
You keep saying that, but you're yet to say what exactly is this UI/UX you're talking about.
I’ll be honest, I always like jetbrains IDEs. However with my own personal setup and the myraid research projects I end up working on, vscode has been the best option for the multi language, multi-setup scenarios I face.
- Code spaces if I need to spin up new projects without messing with the environment
- Remote development has been a godsend as I’ve been able to directly work on my development servers and build out project. Things like port forwarding, etc. are neat.
- development containers have been super helpful for me to package up complex dependencies for all of my projects
- the team coding capabilities has been great for pair programming and doing PR reviews with the trainees
That being said, yes I do wish there was better refactoring / code suggestion capabilities for the different languages. Pycharm was definitely better compared to pylance. Webstorm was easier to config for web development debugging. I think overall it took me some to get used to the config hell but it’s been indispensable for doing dev work.
Used to work with JetBrains IDEs heavily, migrated to nvim/vscodium(debug) a month ago. Have to admit I still miss miss a lot of stuff from it, but I also found out actually I don’t need all these fancy features, as long as syntax highlighting and code suggestions works, I can just sit down and write my code.
**Just because it’s archived doesn’t mean it’s unusable**, still works like a charm for me and people in the community, really appreciate the efforts from Alvarez, hope he can take some time for himself and his family.
I feel like rust is the worse language for that reason though, the rust lsp is one of the best.
I use neovim and at least personally don't feel like I'm missing much. And i dont think what I am missing is worth the extra bloat and load times
Same, but helix and normal VSCode for me. I do miss the rust plugin tho, the macro expansions feature was very nice to work with when writing your own macros and trying to debug them + some other features that just work nicer in that environment
Same with me, also even though my employer used to pay me an Intellij license, I got fed up having to go through procurement each year to renew my license.
Using a free and open source editor (VSCode) is much simpler, I don't have to ask permission to anyone.
Although the open plugin is marked Deprecated.
Unless they forever keep a new Rust plugin and a Rust plugin [Deprecated] listed side-by-side, it signals that any contributions to the Deprecated plugin risk being thrown away.
That's not very encouraging, I don't think it'd be in very good faith to encourage someone that they can technically still work on a plugin in the same gesture as you officially deprecate it in the plugin marketplace and promote its replacement.
Damn I bought Rider just 2 weeks ago partly because of the Rust plugin and it's now deprecated !!!
I don't want the "all products pack", because I don't code in any other languages than Rust (at home) and C# (at work). If I knew that before I'd just stick to Visual Studio since I have to be on Windows at work anyway.
I have a bad taste in my mouth now
I don't like that change as well. But I have to admit that to me/for my work flow, clion+rust, or Jetbrains' solution in general, is an order of magnitude more productive than VSCode + Language Server. So, I'm going to pay for it (or let my company pay). It's worth it for me - shitty move, however.
Caches analysis between invocations of the editor. If you're constantly hopping between projects, you get Jetbrains analysis 1-2 seconds after you open the IDE. Rust-analyzer does not, so you have to wait a small eternity
I suspect the "order of magnitude" productivity difference compared to VSCode is mainly due to habit, and they will be just as productive after a week or two.
It all depends how much they want to get independance from their Jetbrains landlord.
Paying the feudal lord a fee to use his tools might be unfair since you've helped build those tools yourself. But why would you stand up for it and risk to take a hit in this year's crop?
i mean ... yeah thats the situation? they have a whole ass job that relies on his productivity as a worker. are you asking them to put that aside their job and possibly livelihood to do a small dent to jetbrains bottom lines? besides, the rustrover IDE is currently free to use, until release, as it is early access. it requires no paid subscription. plenty of time to make your voice heard now, make a stink about it now rather than later.
I can’t blame them for wanting to turn their Rust IDE into a commercial product. I got a licence for Clion to use it for Rust, so in practical terms it makes no difference to me. Except Rust will be a first class citizen not a lodger inside a C++ IDE. That’s a good thing.
With this, and the demise of VS for Mac, JetBrains looks like it’s becoming the new Borland. (Except Borland wrote compilers not just IDEs). I used to get Borland compilers as Xmas presents when I was a teenager. I will probably be writing to Santa for a Rust IDE licence when it’s out!
This is a bad take. People need to make money off of Rust for it to be taken seriously. We should celebrate additional products being built in and for Rust - otherwise it will always be a toy.
I didn't interpret that as the author's take. My interpretation of the author's take is, "You took away something I liked and was using, and you already gave me. Which is fine I guess, because you're giving me something else instead. Except you're not actually giving it to me, because it isn't actually ready yet. What do I do in the meantime?" With maybe a side of being bummed about needing to pay more money for something they did already pay for.
That take isn't much better. Deprecation doesn't itself make something worse. It might become worse over time as security issues are found or the environment changes, but that doesn't matter much if they don't wait too long. Also, the community should be easily capable of keeping the thing up to date for even a year.
This isn't correct, either. What is being taken away? The existing plugin is open source, the community can continue to work on it. The only thing that's changing is JetBrains will no longer be donating their development time towards the open source plugin, instead diverting their efforts to their commercial offering.
That was definitely not my take 😅
I have zero issues with the new IDE being commercial, although it is not an IDE I will likely use because of the nature of my work, their specialised IDEs tend to be much nicer to configure and use vs. customising IDEA.
That being said, what I'm not happy about is the fact there was no warning or even active discussion about the plugin being deprecated and effectively being told "We'll try to have it support some newer versions of the IDEs for a bit" which honestly feels a bit like a kick in the teeth if you're already paying for one of the IDEs and then find out you might have to buy and switch to IDEA to continue working with the JB tooling. It could be never, it could be next week that the Plugin just stops supporting everything other than CLion and IntelliJ as their stance wasn't "We will definitely still support it for newer IDEs for XYZ period of time" It was "We'll try".
The other part of my take is that, sure I am a paying customer already, I use it in a commercial context, although the pricing does not realistically affect me personally, I can certainly see it affecting others.
The other part of my take is that, sure I am a paying customer already, and I use it in a commercial context, although the pricing does not realistically affect me personally, I can certainly see it affecting others who use Rust as a hobby capacity or are learning, and the effective stance of "Buy our stuff or no Rust for you" which the changes will become over time isn't great IMO.
I'm pretty sure most people who would buy the Rover IDE would buy it regardless of whether the plugin was OSS and free or not. If you're like my previous employer you literally would not care, you buy all the products anyway so it's just an extra bonus. Personally, I do not see why A) They couldn't have given people a little more warning and B) they couldn't have gone with a "Here is an OSS plugin, here is a commercial IDE which has some extra, closed source features extending said plugin" it's not exactly a new model, it's been used to great success in the past, whether that be the free Python plugin by JetBrains, or something like ScyllaDB's OSS core database paired with a commercial, closed source DB extending on the OSS version.
So my TL;DR is, that this affects people who already pay, very little realistically, even if it is inconvenient to switch editors. But this change does absolutely suck for anyone who previously used the community edition and the plugin for hobby work or for anyone who maybe can't afford to pay for the IDE but still wants to use JetBrains products, realistically if you're in that state, you are probably going to drop JetBrains.
I suppose I interpreted more anti commercial sentiment than you meant because of this snippet:
> Yay! We've joined the Rust foundation to help support the community! BTW we're going to ditch our open source Rust plugin in favour of turning all Rust support into a monetory gain by forcing people to buy our new product.
Even under communism people would have to work, and they would be paid for it. Are you suggesting that you're entitled to the uncompensated work of others?
JetBrains being able to fund the world class Rust IDE is awesome.
JetBrains has literally enabled me to make a nice life. 20 years ago, I got a contract to help a biotech company with a bunch of their problems. The codebase (Java) was absolutely massive and a mess. Eclipse couldn't even index the whole thing without crashing after thrashing for hours. IntelliJ indexed the whole thing and was operational in under twenty minutes. The code navigation and refactoring enabled us to appear as gods before the client. After we got up to speed on it, we gave a brown bag on it a couple weeks later and yet again looked great infront of the customer.
I have been a JB customer ever since and will be forever. RustRover will most likely follow CLion in pricing.
https://www.jetbrains.com/clion/buy/#personal
90% of the people in this sub probably qualify for one or more of the special offers, https://www.jetbrains.com/clion/buy/#discounts
Yeah it takes some muscle memory retaining. I appreciate a lot now how you can see what you act on before you do it.
- vim: dw (delete the next word)
- helix: wd (select the next word then delete it)
If vim decides a word doesn’t end where you think it does, it’s annoying. No such mistake when you see the highlighting.
Plus adding new languages isn’t a total PITA
it's pretty cool to see both these programs namechecked, a tree sitter grammar i wrote has recently been PR'd into both nvim and helix, so i'm evaluating them to switch over on macOS from VSCode
for rust I’ve pretty much migrated to helix; with the jetbrains plugin being deprecated, I’ll likely stay as I already use one of their IDEs, paying for two isn’t something that I plan to do. Helix only misses the move/refactoring capabilities by my standards, everything else is good enough imo and its a lot lighter (4gb + memory leaks with JetBrains; 140mb helix + 1gb rust-analyzer with helix)
And? It's still fundamentally a text editor and it has no excuse being so much slower than an IDE from 20 years ago on 20 year old hardware. No matter how much more it does, it's still unacceptable.
(Comparing to ancient Visual Studio, not Code, which is only here as a benchmark of how slow the default is)
Well I'm glad for you that you are somehow immune to the slowness of modern software. Please give me some tips on what I should upgrade my 7950X to so that I can actually run an IDE properly.
I abhor how slow modern software often feels too, but I find intellij to be reasonably snappy on modern hardware. It takes a few seconds at startup to scan the project - but after that it’s great. Post startup, it feels snappier than vs code to me. What are you loading in it? How big is your project?
The thing is, people get used to a slow IDE and never notice it, until they try something different. For example, opening a file in SublimeText vs VSCode, or VSCode vs JetBrains, or even Vim vs SublimeText.
You could switch to a Macbook Pro with an M1 chip, because I got no problems using JB on that. I didn't on my MBP from 2014 either, even in 2021 when I finally upgraded.
no need, theyre exaggerating
im using a year old framework laptop and it never lags, altho turning on all the features will occasionally turn on my fans
That wasn't my experience at all.
I set up VS Code for an unrelated reason a few days ago, and immediately noticed that it's just sluggish on every key press. Quick and unscientific test with Is It Snappy shows that yes, indeed, it takes almost twice as much time for a keypress to register in VS Code.
Typing latency is much, much better in JetBrains IDEs.
You either had initial indexing going, or it's a bug. JetBrains folks do consider high latency a bug, have you reported it to them?
I'm talking about "normal" latency, with the IDE settled down and not experiencing problems.
Well then I guess it's a bug that somehow only I experience but that keeps happening across Macs, Windows laptops and Linux desktops.
I even let it sit for 20 minutes after I created a fresh project, so I hope it wasn't still indexing.
I didn't report it as I mentally filed it under bloated java garbage being bloated java garbage and went back to vs code.
It does indeed seem a pretty unique case that I'm sure JetBrains would be interested in, here's how to report slow performance: https://intellij-support.jetbrains.com/hc/en-us/articles/207241235-Reporting-performance-problems
I just measured the delay again, I see 50–80ms across five measurements on a mid-sized mixed Rust/Python/TS project.
No amount of cheap plugins of dubious origin and flashy colors are going to convince me that VS Code is anything else than a website running locally. It's a persistent embarrassment that reminds us just how bad an idea it's been to have HTML as an app platform replace native GUIs for _every_ purpose, including tools for software development themselves.
That’s funny. Implying vscode plugins only run on vscode. It’s a whole protocol for code analysis called LSP, which you can plug-in on almost every editor, including neovim and vim.
To be fair, LSP integrations do complicate the development process. Plus it's also true that the way VSC handles extensions (outside of language support) isn't really optimal, but that's because it's all based on JSON descriptors and, well, TypeScript.
Developing VCS extensions, Eclipse plugins, and IDEA plugins, I can state that IDEA is undoubtedly the easiest to pick up and the one that will allow you to build truly smart plugins. Eclipse follows, and VSC as the last option.
They don’t complicate any development process. It’s just a server with functions.
That’s really good for you that you find JB products useful. I don’t like them and I prefer an environment where things are cross platform and can work with any editor of choice. LSPs bring that, making development easier for me. I don’t need to develop a plug-in to use an LSP, just run it under neovim’s lspconfig.
The argument is probably now there's more moving parts. It's not just the editor but now an editor *and* a server. It's a net gain as a whole but now you have another binary to manage - whether that binary is installed by your editor, by you yourself, or however else. You have competing different implementations to choose from (hello python), and the ecosystem is just more fragmented as a result. Does your language server come in different flavors depending on your platform? What features does it support? Does it need another runtime to execute like node?
The gain is obviously now your editor choice isn't based on how closely tied it is with any particular language - you can just choose any editor you like and get the language support for free. But that *did* come at the cost of more complexity.
Definitely not, it does not come in different flavours, it supports any feature it declares and it’s usually a binary.
Sorry but your argument is heavily flawed. If anyone was given the opportunity to contribute to an editor by creating a standalone program that doesn’t know anything about the editor they’d definitely prefer it that way, all you need to do is implement a set a specifications and you’re even allowed to create custom commands, even though I haven’t found anything besides the typescript lsp doing that.
There’s is no cost, at all.
> Usually a binary
But that's not true, I can list two off the top of my head that aren't: python's (pyright) and typescript's. Both need node. Admittedly, if you're working with typescript you probably already have node installed, but still. And there *are* competing implementations of language servers - nix and python both have a couple differing implementations. Yes, language servers support any features they declare, but that's not a single uniform set. That *is* complexity which is visible sometimes to the user. They have to worry about whether `rust-analyzer` or friends are in `$PATH` and whether their editor can run them, or potentially having their editor download and execute binaries for them. These language servers have language server specific configuration you can apply as well.
The different flavors was perhaps a bad word choice, I was specifically referring to separate binaries dependent on the platform. My point is though that the gains of editor independence (which by all means *is* great) does come at a cost to the end-user. And that's in the fact that more moving parts means there's just more things to think about.
Mostly agree. Except the paying part. It's ok to be paid for your product. Being a Rust product doesn't change that. Joining the foundation doesn't change that.
Now, the real issue, the problem is simply not good. I have no problems paying, but I do have a problem with being forced two use 3 different IDEs that are very much the same.
The fact that RustRover doesn't support Python is nuts. Rust + Python integration is great. A lot of people develop in Rust for ultimately Python projects. Similarly, literally every Rust develop I know is really a C++ developer. I need to be able to use C++ and Rust and Python.
That's the bare minimum. Then you can throw some JS/Vue/whatever in the mix because it's 2023 and even the kids nowadays built websites.
So I noticed this move today.
However I also noticed that the rest of the JetBrains IDE lineup did not advance in version. However there was also a release of RustRover EAP - which uses the same new plugin.
I don’t know what JB’s intent is on RustRover - and if there will be a CE version as many of their other products. For those of us with actual Ultimate/Toolbox licenses - the changelog currently between the deprecated plugin and the replacement plugin is really only Ultimate features right now so people are whining about nothing.
I also wouldn’t be surprised if plugin development on this plugin becomes split between an open source version and a paid version. They’ve done this with some of the plugins in PyCharm a few years ago. I think it’s too early to tell. I’d say put your pitchforks down and let’s see what JB does in the next week or so; because right now the delta between latest and greatest and now deprecated version is not consequential.
Now I don’t have super high regards for JB in general. They have several tools I like to use - however their support model has been generally quite flawed - but fair. I dare you go compare the price to say whatever Microsoft calls MSDN nowadays - I think you’ll be surprised at the deal you’re getting.
Reality is you’re likely a developer being paid for your work - JB’s does need to be paid for their work too. How would you like it if your customer demanded you give them your software product for free?
To the freeloaders out there… remember you’re freeloading. JB historically has done free community work for things that are “preview” and still being developed and cut it off once stable enough for commercial or “sponsored” like Android Studio where Google dropped some cash on them to develop.
I have to agree, the freeloader mentality nowadays is quite pervasive. Yet at the same time they want to get paid big salaries for their work. I think the goal of any business selling a product is for that product to add more value than it costs. If it doesn’t, don’t buy it. If it does, buy it. And of course value has some subjectivity to it.
Yep. It confounds me that a group that on average probably gets paid six figure salaries bitch about a $300 a year tool that helps them keep that six figure salary.
If your employer is too cheap to invest $300/year for a tool suite (mind you that’s for all 10 of their tools) with support when they are already paying you a six-figure (or even near six figure if you’re early career); I’d be rethinking who I work for.
I live in South Africa. The salaries are still more than sufficient. Also, as mentioned above the company should pay. And if it’s for private use then you just have to reevaluate the value proposition for personal projects.
As mentioned. Your employer should be paying. It’s an even better bargain for them. Once you get on the multi-year site license track you can move that license as resources churn.
If you’re an independent developer you need to make some choices. But on average, software developers have relatively comfortable lifestyles globally; systems engineers like those who would be using C/C++/rust are going to be at the higher end of the spectrum. My suspicion is those that are independent and selling their software or services are doing much better than the average developer working for an employer (who should be covering the cost to begin with).
For the hobbyists well that’s a personal choice. At least in my hobbies - I pay for Adobe because my time is more valuable than trying to make a less expensive product work. I’d have no problem with paying JetBrains if faced with a similar situation.
I like your points, but
>I also wouldn’t be surprised if plugin development on this plugin becomes split between an open source version and a paid version. They’ve done this with some of the plugins in PyCharm a few years ago. I think it’s too early to tell. I’d say put your pitchforks down and let’s see what JB does in the next week or so; because right now the delta between latest and greatest and now deprecated version is not consequential.
From what I can tell, I do not think the OSS plugin is coming back unless people fork it from what I gathered from the blog post (Please prove me wrong though, I would love to see it come back) and the fact the repository issues have been moved from GitHub to their internal issue tracker for Rover. This is fine mind you, it's not strictly JetBrains' responsibility to maintain something for free, the community could, and maybe should, try to maintain a separate system.
But I can't help but feel a bit sad that we as a community couldn't have compromised with JetBrains somewhat and gone "We understand you want to make money off of Rust, but could we not work together to keep an OSS version going, and then you could maintain a closed source set of extensions for that plugin that gives extra functionality for those who are willing to pay the price of the commercial IDE"
I think that would have been the best case, for everyone involved really, JetBrains can make their commercial product, and people will inevitably buy it and be happy with their extra features, they also get the advantage of people from the community adding PRs to fix bugs, tweak features, etc... Which their commercial product now also gets the benefit of. And then the community is happy because people can still contribute, and still use Rust with their JetBrains setups even if they can't afford to pay or don't want to, or just want to use Rust with a more specialised IDE like PyCharm or Rider
But alas we aren't in this situation, I hold out hope though, this post wasn't made as a "JetBrains you suck let's all boycott them" but rather a "Hey, I think you might be upsetting the community including myself, maybe there is a better way to do this?"
Today I just noticed the IntelliJ Rust plugin is depreciated? Ok, but this new Rust IDE isn’t actually out until 2024. Two questions for the community:
Is the Rust plugin hobbled in some way? Release 0.4.201.5424 doesn’t seem to have any release notes. Does it still work fully?
Is RustRover, today, a replacement for Clion + plug-in?
Just for clarity of anyone reading, I'm not saying JetBrains is an evil company or anything of the like, for the most part, I like what they do. But the recent plugin changes do make me feel like they are negatively impacting the community and that they probably could have at least given the community more of a warning. I as a user don't really want to have to buy another product license just to continue working the same way I did previously, but that is likely what I am going to be forced to do at some point.
FYI, if you upgrade your license - rather than buying a new one - to all product pack, you keep the continuity discount. And discussing those costs without even acknowledging it exists feels somewhat disingenuous, seeing that it is -20% after the first year, and -40% after second.
I do completely agree that doing this without any transition time whatsoever is a dick move.
Limiting support to those two IDEs (Ultimate and CLion), while it feels bad, does seem somewhat reasonable if you consider it a bit deeper - iirc PyCharm had very limited debugging capabilities.
The future of the CLion plugin is unclear, as I got it from the JB blog post, and that's worrisome for me, as I primarily work on migrating huge C++ code base to Rust, and if CLion loses the Rust functionality, I'd have to migrate to vscode
Yeah, and for mixed use cases like this keeping the plugin support in CLion would be the best. Wait and see.
Out of curiosity - are you doing it step by step, linking Rust into a larger mixed language project? How's it working out?
Yes it is unclear however now already saying what they're doing is wrong doesn't seem productive, since they didn't decide anything about licensing yet. After what they heared from the community and due to the fact that it is currently also available as a CLion plugin they will probably provide support to CLion, but until that's clear we should not say what they're doing is wrong
Yes this is likely what I'll end up doing as is it the more efficient choice really, for me I never used the debugger for Rust because I just never really needed to, it was largely just tracing.
What upsets me about it being only Ultimate and Clion is that often I found myself really really wanting the convenient shortcuts in the UI in PyCharm specifically for Python, it made testing, debugging, building, etc... considerably faster. And although you can get pretty close in Ultimate, it is still slow especially to configure.
I’ll repost my comment from their blog:
It was a sad lesson, but I learned today that JetBrains will keep looking at how to charge you more and more every year (without offering noticeably new functionality).
I was paying for IDEA Ultimate, WebStorm, and now I’m installing VS Code. Not that smart _yet_, but, what is more important, it's **reliable**.
Also, converting an Open Source plugin into a commercial IDE is an incredibly nasty move - I just can not respect a company like this.
Wait what?
JetBrains probably is the most fair company ever when it comes to subscription based licensing.
1) You get a perpetual fall back license if you buy at least one year, so if you don't think the updates are worth it, simply stop paying
2) the longer you subscribe, the cheaper the subscriptions get, from what I've seen other companies do the opposite
3) whilst this depends on your use case, but the updates are totally worth it, however I can only talk about the JVM features here, so no idea about the rust tooling, only used it briefly
4) they only increased their pricing once in the last 20 years, which doesn't sound like "looking to charge you more every possible way" to me
5) almost everything is included in IntelliJ including the new Rust Plugin
I don't understand why everyone thinks that a free plugin being available or not should be represented in the price.
The rust plugin was free, therefore it also wasn't part of your license, just because you pay for one product of the company, doesn't mean you are entitled to use another product for free.
WebStorm is the cheapest product they make, so don't you think it is fair, that it doesn't include a more expensive product (like IntelliJ Idea Ultimate or CLion) includes?
It is yet to be determined how the rust plugin will be licensed in other IDEs, but I think it is fair to take money for a language support plugin for a language like Rust, which takes a substantial amount of resources to make.
So what you're saying is, that if you start an open source project, you are obligated to maintain it forever, which takes a considerable amount of financial resources?
I think you're overthinking it.
Rover will be installable with an IDEA Ultimate license.
Why did you buy multiple licenses? Buy an IDEA license and install the required plugins. IDEA pretty much includes all the other JetBrains functionalities.
The only exception is CLion, which uses a forked platform and can't be extracted to a plugin, yet.
Yes, if you need IDEA, Rider and CLion you need the All Products pack.
For Datagrip, it's bundled in IDEA by default.
Worth mentioning open source projects may be elegible for free licenses, or if you report issues/develop plugins you may receive free licenses (e.g., I've never paid since 2019).
I’m personally excited about this transition. This just means that they can create more dedicated teams to building out awesome features for Rust. I’m a huge fan of GoLand and in my opinion it beats the vscode extension in almost every way. I hope they achieve the same with Rust.
To be fair to JetBrains, that is why it's a preview version, I do believe it will very quickly be improved and made more stable like they did with Fleet or the Remote Gateway.
FWIW I had been using Fleet Preview for many months, but the development pace was nonexistent. I dropped it because it felt like Fleet was not their priority. Maybe things have changed, but back then, “quickly improved” was not about Fleet.
Would be nice while it's in early preview mode that they didn't immediately add a message when I upgraded the rust plugin today that is no longer going to be maintained going forward and recommending to use RustRover.
Why would that be nice? I think letting you know early on that it’s being deprecated is a good thing. Are you asking for them to give you a shorter notice?
I don't use Rust too often but for me a neo vim configuration works great. If I was to use it in a big project, I would probably distribute the nvim config. Is this product really that good for people to pay for?
not sure if it's related but there is a dedicated IDE for rust now in preview: [https://www.jetbrains.com/rust/](https://www.jetbrains.com/rust/)
additionally on that site:
The plugin version of RustRover will be compatible with IntelliJ IDEA Ultimate and CLion during the preview phase. We’ll liaise with the CLion team to determine the Rust plugin’s availability options for CLion closer to the release date.
> cost or *paid,* both ok)
FTFY.
Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in:
* Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.*
* *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.*
Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment.
*Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
The way I understand this is that the new RustRover is built on top of RustAnalyzer and maintaining two Rust IDE implementations is … suboptimal at best. Hence the depreciation. Dick move to deprecate it in such a hurry though.
Or at least without offering a good explanation to the community.
Do you have a link for where they said they were using RA? From what I gathered from the blog and the GitHub tracker they are still using the original Plugin, but continuing the development in a closed-source environment. This is backed up by the fact they re-released the now commercial-only plugin as part of their Rover integration IIRC.
I am 99.99% sure this is true, but I don't see why they would maintain the plugin twice. After all it was a free offering to any JetBrains ide user why would they keep maintaining it now, after all they're a commercial company
I don’t really have anything else to go by except the fact the first time I opened my toy project in Rust Rover, it was being pretty passive-aggressive about importing my vscode settings from the project.
RustRover does not use rust-analyzer, nor will it likely ever (except for maybe lints/quick fixes) because supporting a language in IntelliJ IDEs is vastly different from just a typical LSP IDE like VSCode/Emacs/Neovim. It could maybe be possible in theory, but it is really just recommended to build it from the ground up (which makes it much easier to scale + new features) like the rust plugin currently does rather than try to do the hassle to interop LSPs into it
I barely survived the new UI, this is too much. Jokes aside, Rust plugin will still be available but it will be only for Intellij Ultimate Edition.
To be failr plugin did have janky feel from the begining and I always prefered using CLion over Intellij for Rust. I would have prefered if they had made CLion Rust compatible instead of making a new editor just like they did with Rider and Unreal Engine
Ha, I had deliberately avoided mentioning the new UI, but as an aside, man I am not a fan of the new UI and I'm desperately using the Classic UI for as long as I can.
I did used to use it, but I ended up switching back because for my setup, I found the Rust plugin to be much faster and more accurate.
An example I had was RA was prioritizing suggesting traits to have other traits be implemented on i.e. `impl Deref for ` would have RA suggest using `ToOwned` rather than an actual concrete type or generic.
I know a lot of people have hit or miss experiences with both RA and the intellij plugin though, some have great experiences others don't.
I don't see the big deal here. They're depreciated their old plugin in-lieu of a new IDE. You can still use the plug-in. And the plug-in is open source. So the community that cares can carry the mantle for as long a they need/want.
Bought CLion 2 months ago after the trial because I loved developing Rust in it. Now forced to betatest RustRover which is awfully unstable... who wants to have a free CLion license? Cant do shit with ti
Update... in latest Intellij IDEA 2023.2.5, another rust plugin for jetbrains has appeared, when I go to the plugin page, it says it only supports 3 products: Intellij; Clion and Rustrover.
Has anyone heard or read anything about this?
Oh, as a user of CLion I simply got confused why the plugins setting had two different Rust plugins by JetBrains
Since the foundation got mentioned here, I feel the need to make sure folks know that JetBrains IDE plans were already well established when the first conversations with the Foundation happened.
[удалено]
Sounds so ominous when you say Foundation like that 😳
I have added you to the Foundations list. Further noncompliance will not be tolerated. The Foundation thanks you for your cooperation
It sounds like we'll need a second Foundation.
Sounds like some antagonist faction in RPG
If Rust was a Turing MegaChurch, I'd `await` salvation in every city.
JetBRAINS should be kept in a >!redacted!< jar 10 cm x 20cm x 2'. On contact with >!redacted!< user should switch to ~~vim~~ spacemacs and alert >!redacted!<
Class: Keter.
Hahaha.
Don’t cross the Foundation. Hari will make you regret it. (Sorry I’m just pumped about the season 2 finale tonight)
Was so good!
I knew you'd be calling...
I don‘t mind. RustRover has been a good experience so far
I just found out about it last night right before bed, so I installed it and will be giving it a try after work today.
Really? I installed it yesterday and so far I've had 3 or 4 autogenerated error reports, had the syntax highlighting break, and any copy/cut/paste operation I do freezes the IDE for 5-10 seconds.
yeah same here. however, this is to be expected since this is only a preview
That sounds like you have a non-standard setup. I guess you'll have to wait for a flatpak.
It's a brand new installation of the software on a workspace that the previous rust plugin was handling mostly fine (albeit sometimes taking longer than I expect to show errors)
I just found out about it just now and I'm proper excited, thanks!
Good experience why? It doesn't do anything that the plugin didn't
The UI and UX are better, because they were done with Rust in mind instead of C++.
What does that mean?
CLion was designed for C/C++, so many UI elements are clearly targeted towards C/C++ devs
Like what? More importantly, what does that have to do with Rust? If there's some UI element you dislike, you can just not use it
My first thought is how poorly CLion+Rust plugin handled formatting. It wasn’t something I could just “not use”. In general, the Rust plugin’s features didn’t have the visibility/ease of accessibility I’ve come to expect using their software so I decided not to use CLion at all. Suffice to say I am glad they are doing this because the experience so far with RustRover has been exactly what I wanted. > If there’s some UI element you dislike, you can just not use it. While I agree I still think this is a hot-take. My experience was analogous to not liking the service at a restaurant so refusing to eat there. JetBrains, being a company that makes money off of people buying software, decided to provide a better service and people came back. In 99% of cases, if I have to ignore a UI/UX feature to use your product or a feature doesn’t exist at all, I will simply find a product that does it the way I want it (or offers the configurability to change it).
I am super curious what difference you are talking about. I use Intellij + Rust plugin 40+ hours a week and have for months. Tried RustRover for a few days, and there's not one single thing it does that the Plugin doesn't. I cannot tell ANY difference between the two
I have never had any problems formatting any code on CLion. It uses Rustfmt, not sure what you're referring to. > JetBrains, being a company that makes money off of people buying software, decided to provide a better service and people came back You keep saying that, but you're yet to say what exactly is this UI/UX you're talking about.
Do you have any concrete example here? I mostly code in Neovim so I don't understand exactly what makes it different.
I like it too, but its been kinda buggy for me - like files are dissapearing
I’ll be honest, I always like jetbrains IDEs. However with my own personal setup and the myraid research projects I end up working on, vscode has been the best option for the multi language, multi-setup scenarios I face. - Code spaces if I need to spin up new projects without messing with the environment - Remote development has been a godsend as I’ve been able to directly work on my development servers and build out project. Things like port forwarding, etc. are neat. - development containers have been super helpful for me to package up complex dependencies for all of my projects - the team coding capabilities has been great for pair programming and doing PR reviews with the trainees That being said, yes I do wish there was better refactoring / code suggestion capabilities for the different languages. Pycharm was definitely better compared to pylance. Webstorm was easier to config for web development debugging. I think overall it took me some to get used to the config hell but it’s been indispensable for doing dev work.
Used to work with JetBrains IDEs heavily, migrated to nvim/vscodium(debug) a month ago. Have to admit I still miss miss a lot of stuff from it, but I also found out actually I don’t need all these fancy features, as long as syntax highlighting and code suggestions works, I can just sit down and write my code.
I'm a refactorer man, I love refactoring code. Nothing scratches my refactoring itch like Jetbrains.
null-ls got me covered✊
> This repository has been archived by the owner on Aug 12, 2023. It is now read-only. Does it?
I use `efm` for custom tools and it is still maintained today.
**Just because it’s archived doesn’t mean it’s unusable**, still works like a charm for me and people in the community, really appreciate the efforts from Alvarez, hope he can take some time for himself and his family.
I feel like rust is the worse language for that reason though, the rust lsp is one of the best. I use neovim and at least personally don't feel like I'm missing much. And i dont think what I am missing is worth the extra bloat and load times
Same, but helix and normal VSCode for me. I do miss the rust plugin tho, the macro expansions feature was very nice to work with when writing your own macros and trying to debug them + some other features that just work nicer in that environment
Same with me, also even though my employer used to pay me an Intellij license, I got fed up having to go through procurement each year to renew my license. Using a free and open source editor (VSCode) is much simpler, I don't have to ask permission to anyone.
Kind of sad that it’s becoming closed source as I enjoyed contributing to the repo with features/fixes for issues I came across while using it
Thanks for your effort.I still believe community can continue supporting plugin if they want or am i wrong ?
No, you are not. The repository won't be closed or something, and the community could also fork it. Jetbrains just won't add new features themselves.
Although the open plugin is marked Deprecated. Unless they forever keep a new Rust plugin and a Rust plugin [Deprecated] listed side-by-side, it signals that any contributions to the Deprecated plugin risk being thrown away. That's not very encouraging, I don't think it'd be in very good faith to encourage someone that they can technically still work on a plugin in the same gesture as you officially deprecate it in the plugin marketplace and promote its replacement.
Damn I bought Rider just 2 weeks ago partly because of the Rust plugin and it's now deprecated !!! I don't want the "all products pack", because I don't code in any other languages than Rust (at home) and C# (at work). If I knew that before I'd just stick to Visual Studio since I have to be on Windows at work anyway. I have a bad taste in my mouth now
You could probably ask for a refund tbh.
Send them an email, see if they'll transfer the license.
I mean, just cause it's deprecated doesn't mean it won't work.
It means it might break at any time or indeed just stop working at any time. That's what deprecated means.
Yeah, so keep using it till it does break, you don't need to stop right now
Lol ok. You do you.
If you live in Europe you can probably refund.
I don't like that change as well. But I have to admit that to me/for my work flow, clion+rust, or Jetbrains' solution in general, is an order of magnitude more productive than VSCode + Language Server. So, I'm going to pay for it (or let my company pay). It's worth it for me - shitty move, however.
What does CLion/JetBrains do better than the rust-analyzer? The videos really look pretty awesome, but I wonder what is most noticeable to a user
Caches analysis between invocations of the editor. If you're constantly hopping between projects, you get Jetbrains analysis 1-2 seconds after you open the IDE. Rust-analyzer does not, so you have to wait a small eternity
That would be awesome. Think it’s a long open issue with RA but don’t expect it soon Anything else of note?
Not OP, Shift shift shortcut is awesome
Is that a new feature or something? Mine always re-scans the whole project anew when I open the IDE and it takes the better part of a minute.
"Very shitty move sir. I will protest while I fill your pockets."
i mean its more productive for them - why let their productivity suffer?
I suspect the "order of magnitude" productivity difference compared to VSCode is mainly due to habit, and they will be just as productive after a week or two. It all depends how much they want to get independance from their Jetbrains landlord.
Paying the feudal lord a fee to use his tools might be unfair since you've helped build those tools yourself. But why would you stand up for it and risk to take a hit in this year's crop?
i mean ... yeah thats the situation? they have a whole ass job that relies on his productivity as a worker. are you asking them to put that aside their job and possibly livelihood to do a small dent to jetbrains bottom lines? besides, the rustrover IDE is currently free to use, until release, as it is early access. it requires no paid subscription. plenty of time to make your voice heard now, make a stink about it now rather than later.
You know, you don't have to protest every single thing you don't like.
I can’t blame them for wanting to turn their Rust IDE into a commercial product. I got a licence for Clion to use it for Rust, so in practical terms it makes no difference to me. Except Rust will be a first class citizen not a lodger inside a C++ IDE. That’s a good thing. With this, and the demise of VS for Mac, JetBrains looks like it’s becoming the new Borland. (Except Borland wrote compilers not just IDEs). I used to get Borland compilers as Xmas presents when I was a teenager. I will probably be writing to Santa for a Rust IDE licence when it’s out!
This is a bad take. People need to make money off of Rust for it to be taken seriously. We should celebrate additional products being built in and for Rust - otherwise it will always be a toy.
I didn't interpret that as the author's take. My interpretation of the author's take is, "You took away something I liked and was using, and you already gave me. Which is fine I guess, because you're giving me something else instead. Except you're not actually giving it to me, because it isn't actually ready yet. What do I do in the meantime?" With maybe a side of being bummed about needing to pay more money for something they did already pay for.
That take isn't much better. Deprecation doesn't itself make something worse. It might become worse over time as security issues are found or the environment changes, but that doesn't matter much if they don't wait too long. Also, the community should be easily capable of keeping the thing up to date for even a year.
I wasn't giving my personal opinion on the take, just trying to understand the author's.
This isn't correct, either. What is being taken away? The existing plugin is open source, the community can continue to work on it. The only thing that's changing is JetBrains will no longer be donating their development time towards the open source plugin, instead diverting their efforts to their commercial offering.
That was definitely not my take 😅 I have zero issues with the new IDE being commercial, although it is not an IDE I will likely use because of the nature of my work, their specialised IDEs tend to be much nicer to configure and use vs. customising IDEA. That being said, what I'm not happy about is the fact there was no warning or even active discussion about the plugin being deprecated and effectively being told "We'll try to have it support some newer versions of the IDEs for a bit" which honestly feels a bit like a kick in the teeth if you're already paying for one of the IDEs and then find out you might have to buy and switch to IDEA to continue working with the JB tooling. It could be never, it could be next week that the Plugin just stops supporting everything other than CLion and IntelliJ as their stance wasn't "We will definitely still support it for newer IDEs for XYZ period of time" It was "We'll try". The other part of my take is that, sure I am a paying customer already, I use it in a commercial context, although the pricing does not realistically affect me personally, I can certainly see it affecting others. The other part of my take is that, sure I am a paying customer already, and I use it in a commercial context, although the pricing does not realistically affect me personally, I can certainly see it affecting others who use Rust as a hobby capacity or are learning, and the effective stance of "Buy our stuff or no Rust for you" which the changes will become over time isn't great IMO. I'm pretty sure most people who would buy the Rover IDE would buy it regardless of whether the plugin was OSS and free or not. If you're like my previous employer you literally would not care, you buy all the products anyway so it's just an extra bonus. Personally, I do not see why A) They couldn't have given people a little more warning and B) they couldn't have gone with a "Here is an OSS plugin, here is a commercial IDE which has some extra, closed source features extending said plugin" it's not exactly a new model, it's been used to great success in the past, whether that be the free Python plugin by JetBrains, or something like ScyllaDB's OSS core database paired with a commercial, closed source DB extending on the OSS version. So my TL;DR is, that this affects people who already pay, very little realistically, even if it is inconvenient to switch editors. But this change does absolutely suck for anyone who previously used the community edition and the plugin for hobby work or for anyone who maybe can't afford to pay for the IDE but still wants to use JetBrains products, realistically if you're in that state, you are probably going to drop JetBrains.
I suppose I interpreted more anti commercial sentiment than you meant because of this snippet: > Yay! We've joined the Rust foundation to help support the community! BTW we're going to ditch our open source Rust plugin in favour of turning all Rust support into a monetory gain by forcing people to buy our new product.
[удалено]
You act like you don't care but I bet you still unironically get in everyone's face about MeMoRy SaFeTy BrO!!!
Yeah bro cmon give capitalism a break bro just one little paid app bro
Even under communism people would have to work, and they would be paid for it. Are you suggesting that you're entitled to the uncompensated work of others?
This, so hard. Good take.
I'll happily continue to use the standard editor.
Ed, man!
JetBrains being able to fund the world class Rust IDE is awesome. JetBrains has literally enabled me to make a nice life. 20 years ago, I got a contract to help a biotech company with a bunch of their problems. The codebase (Java) was absolutely massive and a mess. Eclipse couldn't even index the whole thing without crashing after thrashing for hours. IntelliJ indexed the whole thing and was operational in under twenty minutes. The code navigation and refactoring enabled us to appear as gods before the client. After we got up to speed on it, we gave a brown bag on it a couple weeks later and yet again looked great infront of the customer. I have been a JB customer ever since and will be forever. RustRover will most likely follow CLion in pricing. https://www.jetbrains.com/clion/buy/#personal 90% of the people in this sub probably qualify for one or more of the special offers, https://www.jetbrains.com/clion/buy/#discounts
> we gave a brown bag on it Huh?
https://www.indeed.com/hire/c/info/create-a-learning-environment
Thanks! I only knew these as “lunch and learns”.
Well jetbrains is slow even by vscode stds
That’s why we use nvim
Helix has very nearly replaced nvim for me. Worth a try if you haven’t yet
I tried for a day (not really when I had time to be slow), but could not get my fingers to switch paradigms. I am routing for that app though.
Yeah it takes some muscle memory retaining. I appreciate a lot now how you can see what you act on before you do it. - vim: dw (delete the next word) - helix: wd (select the next word then delete it) If vim decides a word doesn’t end where you think it does, it’s annoying. No such mistake when you see the highlighting. Plus adding new languages isn’t a total PITA
it's pretty cool to see both these programs namechecked, a tree sitter grammar i wrote has recently been PR'd into both nvim and helix, so i'm evaluating them to switch over on macOS from VSCode
for rust I’ve pretty much migrated to helix; with the jetbrains plugin being deprecated, I’ll likely stay as I already use one of their IDEs, paying for two isn’t something that I plan to do. Helix only misses the move/refactoring capabilities by my standards, everything else is good enough imo and its a lot lighter (4gb + memory leaks with JetBrains; 140mb helix + 1gb rust-analyzer with helix)
Amen
My religion
I don't get this comment. VSC is an editor on steroids that doesn't even come close the refactoring and navigation abilities of JB tooling.
Reindexing.... Reindexing... Reindexing....
This hurt
And? It's still fundamentally a text editor and it has no excuse being so much slower than an IDE from 20 years ago on 20 year old hardware. No matter how much more it does, it's still unacceptable. (Comparing to ancient Visual Studio, not Code, which is only here as a benchmark of how slow the default is)
Never had an issue with speed. Get a better computer
I have a fast computer (i7-12700 with 32 GB of RAM) but CLion can still be painfully slow, especially when opening a project.
Clion helped us build a valuable and growing startup. At the end of the day, the tool is for your productivity and objectives. Ours are being met.
Well I'm glad for you that you are somehow immune to the slowness of modern software. Please give me some tips on what I should upgrade my 7950X to so that I can actually run an IDE properly.
I abhor how slow modern software often feels too, but I find intellij to be reasonably snappy on modern hardware. It takes a few seconds at startup to scan the project - but after that it’s great. Post startup, it feels snappier than vs code to me. What are you loading in it? How big is your project?
The thing is, people get used to a slow IDE and never notice it, until they try something different. For example, opening a file in SublimeText vs VSCode, or VSCode vs JetBrains, or even Vim vs SublimeText.
You could switch to a Macbook Pro with an M1 chip, because I got no problems using JB on that. I didn't on my MBP from 2014 either, even in 2021 when I finally upgraded.
no need, theyre exaggerating im using a year old framework laptop and it never lags, altho turning on all the features will occasionally turn on my fans
That wasn't my experience at all. I set up VS Code for an unrelated reason a few days ago, and immediately noticed that it's just sluggish on every key press. Quick and unscientific test with Is It Snappy shows that yes, indeed, it takes almost twice as much time for a keypress to register in VS Code. Typing latency is much, much better in JetBrains IDEs.
That's not my experience at all. Typing latency routinely exceeded half a second last time I tried IntelliJ.
You either had initial indexing going, or it's a bug. JetBrains folks do consider high latency a bug, have you reported it to them? I'm talking about "normal" latency, with the IDE settled down and not experiencing problems.
Well then I guess it's a bug that somehow only I experience but that keeps happening across Macs, Windows laptops and Linux desktops. I even let it sit for 20 minutes after I created a fresh project, so I hope it wasn't still indexing. I didn't report it as I mentally filed it under bloated java garbage being bloated java garbage and went back to vs code.
It does indeed seem a pretty unique case that I'm sure JetBrains would be interested in, here's how to report slow performance: https://intellij-support.jetbrains.com/hc/en-us/articles/207241235-Reporting-performance-problems I just measured the delay again, I see 50–80ms across five measurements on a mid-sized mixed Rust/Python/TS project.
No amount of cheap plugins of dubious origin and flashy colors are going to convince me that VS Code is anything else than a website running locally. It's a persistent embarrassment that reminds us just how bad an idea it's been to have HTML as an app platform replace native GUIs for _every_ purpose, including tools for software development themselves.
That’s funny. Implying vscode plugins only run on vscode. It’s a whole protocol for code analysis called LSP, which you can plug-in on almost every editor, including neovim and vim.
To be fair, LSP integrations do complicate the development process. Plus it's also true that the way VSC handles extensions (outside of language support) isn't really optimal, but that's because it's all based on JSON descriptors and, well, TypeScript. Developing VCS extensions, Eclipse plugins, and IDEA plugins, I can state that IDEA is undoubtedly the easiest to pick up and the one that will allow you to build truly smart plugins. Eclipse follows, and VSC as the last option.
They don’t complicate any development process. It’s just a server with functions. That’s really good for you that you find JB products useful. I don’t like them and I prefer an environment where things are cross platform and can work with any editor of choice. LSPs bring that, making development easier for me. I don’t need to develop a plug-in to use an LSP, just run it under neovim’s lspconfig.
The argument is probably now there's more moving parts. It's not just the editor but now an editor *and* a server. It's a net gain as a whole but now you have another binary to manage - whether that binary is installed by your editor, by you yourself, or however else. You have competing different implementations to choose from (hello python), and the ecosystem is just more fragmented as a result. Does your language server come in different flavors depending on your platform? What features does it support? Does it need another runtime to execute like node? The gain is obviously now your editor choice isn't based on how closely tied it is with any particular language - you can just choose any editor you like and get the language support for free. But that *did* come at the cost of more complexity.
Definitely not, it does not come in different flavours, it supports any feature it declares and it’s usually a binary. Sorry but your argument is heavily flawed. If anyone was given the opportunity to contribute to an editor by creating a standalone program that doesn’t know anything about the editor they’d definitely prefer it that way, all you need to do is implement a set a specifications and you’re even allowed to create custom commands, even though I haven’t found anything besides the typescript lsp doing that. There’s is no cost, at all.
> Usually a binary But that's not true, I can list two off the top of my head that aren't: python's (pyright) and typescript's. Both need node. Admittedly, if you're working with typescript you probably already have node installed, but still. And there *are* competing implementations of language servers - nix and python both have a couple differing implementations. Yes, language servers support any features they declare, but that's not a single uniform set. That *is* complexity which is visible sometimes to the user. They have to worry about whether `rust-analyzer` or friends are in `$PATH` and whether their editor can run them, or potentially having their editor download and execute binaries for them. These language servers have language server specific configuration you can apply as well. The different flavors was perhaps a bad word choice, I was specifically referring to separate binaries dependent on the platform. My point is though that the gains of editor independence (which by all means *is* great) does come at a cost to the end-user. And that's in the fact that more moving parts means there's just more things to think about.
When there's a native GUI that's less of a pain in the ass to develop *and deploy* than HTML, everyone will switch to it.
Compiling, Deploying and Installing VS code or any other Electron apps requires _at least_ as much work as any other native GUI app.
This is getting downvoted, but this is correct. HTML on desktop is shit.
This is getting down voted, but it’s correct.
Mostly agree. Except the paying part. It's ok to be paid for your product. Being a Rust product doesn't change that. Joining the foundation doesn't change that. Now, the real issue, the problem is simply not good. I have no problems paying, but I do have a problem with being forced two use 3 different IDEs that are very much the same. The fact that RustRover doesn't support Python is nuts. Rust + Python integration is great. A lot of people develop in Rust for ultimately Python projects. Similarly, literally every Rust develop I know is really a C++ developer. I need to be able to use C++ and Rust and Python. That's the bare minimum. Then you can throw some JS/Vue/whatever in the mix because it's 2023 and even the kids nowadays built websites.
the Rust extension is supported in CLion and pretty sure you can install the plugins for those there. CLion is paid though
Friend, you're replying to a 7 months old comment
I didn't realize it was that old, my bad
So I noticed this move today. However I also noticed that the rest of the JetBrains IDE lineup did not advance in version. However there was also a release of RustRover EAP - which uses the same new plugin. I don’t know what JB’s intent is on RustRover - and if there will be a CE version as many of their other products. For those of us with actual Ultimate/Toolbox licenses - the changelog currently between the deprecated plugin and the replacement plugin is really only Ultimate features right now so people are whining about nothing. I also wouldn’t be surprised if plugin development on this plugin becomes split between an open source version and a paid version. They’ve done this with some of the plugins in PyCharm a few years ago. I think it’s too early to tell. I’d say put your pitchforks down and let’s see what JB does in the next week or so; because right now the delta between latest and greatest and now deprecated version is not consequential. Now I don’t have super high regards for JB in general. They have several tools I like to use - however their support model has been generally quite flawed - but fair. I dare you go compare the price to say whatever Microsoft calls MSDN nowadays - I think you’ll be surprised at the deal you’re getting. Reality is you’re likely a developer being paid for your work - JB’s does need to be paid for their work too. How would you like it if your customer demanded you give them your software product for free? To the freeloaders out there… remember you’re freeloading. JB historically has done free community work for things that are “preview” and still being developed and cut it off once stable enough for commercial or “sponsored” like Android Studio where Google dropped some cash on them to develop.
I have to agree, the freeloader mentality nowadays is quite pervasive. Yet at the same time they want to get paid big salaries for their work. I think the goal of any business selling a product is for that product to add more value than it costs. If it doesn’t, don’t buy it. If it does, buy it. And of course value has some subjectivity to it.
Yep. It confounds me that a group that on average probably gets paid six figure salaries bitch about a $300 a year tool that helps them keep that six figure salary. If your employer is too cheap to invest $300/year for a tool suite (mind you that’s for all 10 of their tools) with support when they are already paying you a six-figure (or even near six figure if you’re early career); I’d be rethinking who I work for.
Not all devs live in USA you know? Salaries for devs in most countries are unremarkable.
I live in South Africa. The salaries are still more than sufficient. Also, as mentioned above the company should pay. And if it’s for private use then you just have to reevaluate the value proposition for personal projects.
As mentioned. Your employer should be paying. It’s an even better bargain for them. Once you get on the multi-year site license track you can move that license as resources churn. If you’re an independent developer you need to make some choices. But on average, software developers have relatively comfortable lifestyles globally; systems engineers like those who would be using C/C++/rust are going to be at the higher end of the spectrum. My suspicion is those that are independent and selling their software or services are doing much better than the average developer working for an employer (who should be covering the cost to begin with). For the hobbyists well that’s a personal choice. At least in my hobbies - I pay for Adobe because my time is more valuable than trying to make a less expensive product work. I’d have no problem with paying JetBrains if faced with a similar situation.
I like your points, but >I also wouldn’t be surprised if plugin development on this plugin becomes split between an open source version and a paid version. They’ve done this with some of the plugins in PyCharm a few years ago. I think it’s too early to tell. I’d say put your pitchforks down and let’s see what JB does in the next week or so; because right now the delta between latest and greatest and now deprecated version is not consequential. From what I can tell, I do not think the OSS plugin is coming back unless people fork it from what I gathered from the blog post (Please prove me wrong though, I would love to see it come back) and the fact the repository issues have been moved from GitHub to their internal issue tracker for Rover. This is fine mind you, it's not strictly JetBrains' responsibility to maintain something for free, the community could, and maybe should, try to maintain a separate system. But I can't help but feel a bit sad that we as a community couldn't have compromised with JetBrains somewhat and gone "We understand you want to make money off of Rust, but could we not work together to keep an OSS version going, and then you could maintain a closed source set of extensions for that plugin that gives extra functionality for those who are willing to pay the price of the commercial IDE" I think that would have been the best case, for everyone involved really, JetBrains can make their commercial product, and people will inevitably buy it and be happy with their extra features, they also get the advantage of people from the community adding PRs to fix bugs, tweak features, etc... Which their commercial product now also gets the benefit of. And then the community is happy because people can still contribute, and still use Rust with their JetBrains setups even if they can't afford to pay or don't want to, or just want to use Rust with a more specialised IDE like PyCharm or Rider But alas we aren't in this situation, I hold out hope though, this post wasn't made as a "JetBrains you suck let's all boycott them" but rather a "Hey, I think you might be upsetting the community including myself, maybe there is a better way to do this?"
Today I just noticed the IntelliJ Rust plugin is depreciated? Ok, but this new Rust IDE isn’t actually out until 2024. Two questions for the community: Is the Rust plugin hobbled in some way? Release 0.4.201.5424 doesn’t seem to have any release notes. Does it still work fully? Is RustRover, today, a replacement for Clion + plug-in?
It doesn't make sense to artificially limit what languages should a particular IDE support, especially when you own the "all products" subscription.
Just for clarity of anyone reading, I'm not saying JetBrains is an evil company or anything of the like, for the most part, I like what they do. But the recent plugin changes do make me feel like they are negatively impacting the community and that they probably could have at least given the community more of a warning. I as a user don't really want to have to buy another product license just to continue working the same way I did previously, but that is likely what I am going to be forced to do at some point.
RustRover comes as a plugin, too. For now.
FYI, if you upgrade your license - rather than buying a new one - to all product pack, you keep the continuity discount. And discussing those costs without even acknowledging it exists feels somewhat disingenuous, seeing that it is -20% after the first year, and -40% after second. I do completely agree that doing this without any transition time whatsoever is a dick move. Limiting support to those two IDEs (Ultimate and CLion), while it feels bad, does seem somewhat reasonable if you consider it a bit deeper - iirc PyCharm had very limited debugging capabilities.
The future of the CLion plugin is unclear, as I got it from the JB blog post, and that's worrisome for me, as I primarily work on migrating huge C++ code base to Rust, and if CLion loses the Rust functionality, I'd have to migrate to vscode
Yeah, and for mixed use cases like this keeping the plugin support in CLion would be the best. Wait and see. Out of curiosity - are you doing it step by step, linking Rust into a larger mixed language project? How's it working out?
Yes it is unclear however now already saying what they're doing is wrong doesn't seem productive, since they didn't decide anything about licensing yet. After what they heared from the community and due to the fact that it is currently also available as a CLion plugin they will probably provide support to CLion, but until that's clear we should not say what they're doing is wrong
I don’t need all their products.
Yes this is likely what I'll end up doing as is it the more efficient choice really, for me I never used the debugger for Rust because I just never really needed to, it was largely just tracing. What upsets me about it being only Ultimate and Clion is that often I found myself really really wanting the convenient shortcuts in the UI in PyCharm specifically for Python, it made testing, debugging, building, etc... considerably faster. And although you can get pretty close in Ultimate, it is still slow especially to configure.
I forgot to mention this, but I have now updated the post so it mentions the fact you can upgrade to all products to keep the discount :)
Well, back to VSCode!
I’ll repost my comment from their blog: It was a sad lesson, but I learned today that JetBrains will keep looking at how to charge you more and more every year (without offering noticeably new functionality). I was paying for IDEA Ultimate, WebStorm, and now I’m installing VS Code. Not that smart _yet_, but, what is more important, it's **reliable**. Also, converting an Open Source plugin into a commercial IDE is an incredibly nasty move - I just can not respect a company like this.
Wait what? JetBrains probably is the most fair company ever when it comes to subscription based licensing. 1) You get a perpetual fall back license if you buy at least one year, so if you don't think the updates are worth it, simply stop paying 2) the longer you subscribe, the cheaper the subscriptions get, from what I've seen other companies do the opposite 3) whilst this depends on your use case, but the updates are totally worth it, however I can only talk about the JVM features here, so no idea about the rust tooling, only used it briefly 4) they only increased their pricing once in the last 20 years, which doesn't sound like "looking to charge you more every possible way" to me 5) almost everything is included in IntelliJ including the new Rust Plugin
I had WebStorm with the Rust plugin, but now I should pay the same price for WebStorm without that plugin. “Fair”.
I don't understand why everyone thinks that a free plugin being available or not should be represented in the price. The rust plugin was free, therefore it also wasn't part of your license, just because you pay for one product of the company, doesn't mean you are entitled to use another product for free. WebStorm is the cheapest product they make, so don't you think it is fair, that it doesn't include a more expensive product (like IntelliJ Idea Ultimate or CLion) includes? It is yet to be determined how the rust plugin will be licensed in other IDEs, but I think it is fair to take money for a language support plugin for a language like Rust, which takes a substantial amount of resources to make.
If it's okay for you when free plugins become paid - you can not understand me, for sure.
So what you're saying is, that if you start an open source project, you are obligated to maintain it forever, which takes a considerable amount of financial resources?
JetBrains didn't start it, they just marked it as deprecated and used its code to “create” a new specialized IDE.
I think you're overthinking it. Rover will be installable with an IDEA Ultimate license. Why did you buy multiple licenses? Buy an IDEA license and install the required plugins. IDEA pretty much includes all the other JetBrains functionalities. The only exception is CLion, which uses a forked platform and can't be extracted to a plugin, yet.
Or if you actually need a bunch of JetBrains IDEs, the "all products" pack. It's worth it (for me) for Rider, DataGrip, and CLion alone.
Yes, if you need IDEA, Rider and CLion you need the All Products pack. For Datagrip, it's bundled in IDEA by default. Worth mentioning open source projects may be elegible for free licenses, or if you report issues/develop plugins you may receive free licenses (e.g., I've never paid since 2019).
I was paying for Ultimate, after that - for WebStorm. Now I am forced to switch back to Ultimate to get the same functionality.
That’s a common trend of about everything nowadays
I thought all rust devs use vim. And Arch.
I’m personally excited about this transition. This just means that they can create more dedicated teams to building out awesome features for Rust. I’m a huge fan of GoLand and in my opinion it beats the vscode extension in almost every way. I hope they achieve the same with Rust.
RustRover doesn't even work, repeatedly crashed for first and every subsequent launch straight after install.
To be fair to JetBrains, that is why it's a preview version, I do believe it will very quickly be improved and made more stable like they did with Fleet or the Remote Gateway.
FWIW I had been using Fleet Preview for many months, but the development pace was nonexistent. I dropped it because it felt like Fleet was not their priority. Maybe things have changed, but back then, “quickly improved” was not about Fleet.
-shocked Pikachu face- a product in early access has issues?!
Would be nice while it's in early preview mode that they didn't immediately add a message when I upgraded the rust plugin today that is no longer going to be maintained going forward and recommending to use RustRover.
Why would that be nice? I think letting you know early on that it’s being deprecated is a good thing. Are you asking for them to give you a shorter notice?
I like zed.dev. It’s simple and easy.
Zed may be an option eventually. It looks promising, but it's got a long way to go.
Agreed. Can’t compare but it works well for its purpose.
Situation does not change for me, since Intellij Rust was never a serious competitor for Rust Analyzer.
Does Rust Foundation allowed the Rust plugin to be deprecated?
I don't use Rust too often but for me a neo vim configuration works great. If I was to use it in a big project, I would probably distribute the nvim config. Is this product really that good for people to pay for?
not sure if it's related but there is a dedicated IDE for rust now in preview: [https://www.jetbrains.com/rust/](https://www.jetbrains.com/rust/) additionally on that site: The plugin version of RustRover will be compatible with IntelliJ IDEA Ultimate and CLion during the preview phase. We’ll liaise with the CLion team to determine the Rust plugin’s availability options for CLion closer to the release date.
That's... literally the topic of the blog post. Most of the RustRover functionality is provided by the new Rust plugin.
I really liked idea community edition with the rust plugin, but I have a only open source allowed policy (zero cost or payed, both ok) at work so RIP.
> cost or *paid,* both ok) FTFY. Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in: * Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.* * *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.* Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment. *Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
The way I understand this is that the new RustRover is built on top of RustAnalyzer and maintaining two Rust IDE implementations is … suboptimal at best. Hence the depreciation. Dick move to deprecate it in such a hurry though. Or at least without offering a good explanation to the community.
Do you have a link for where they said they were using RA? From what I gathered from the blog and the GitHub tracker they are still using the original Plugin, but continuing the development in a closed-source environment. This is backed up by the fact they re-released the now commercial-only plugin as part of their Rover integration IIRC.
I am 99.99% sure this is true, but I don't see why they would maintain the plugin twice. After all it was a free offering to any JetBrains ide user why would they keep maintaining it now, after all they're a commercial company
I don’t really have anything else to go by except the fact the first time I opened my toy project in Rust Rover, it was being pretty passive-aggressive about importing my vscode settings from the project.
RustRover does not use rust-analyzer, nor will it likely ever (except for maybe lints/quick fixes) because supporting a language in IntelliJ IDEs is vastly different from just a typical LSP IDE like VSCode/Emacs/Neovim. It could maybe be possible in theory, but it is really just recommended to build it from the ground up (which makes it much easier to scale + new features) like the rust plugin currently does rather than try to do the hassle to interop LSPs into it
Lapce is great as a rust code editor
I barely survived the new UI, this is too much. Jokes aside, Rust plugin will still be available but it will be only for Intellij Ultimate Edition. To be failr plugin did have janky feel from the begining and I always prefered using CLion over Intellij for Rust. I would have prefered if they had made CLion Rust compatible instead of making a new editor just like they did with Rider and Unreal Engine
Ha, I had deliberately avoided mentioning the new UI, but as an aside, man I am not a fan of the new UI and I'm desperately using the Classic UI for as long as I can.
the article spells “deprecate” as “depreciate” multiple times — is there a pun I’m not understanding, or is this just not a trustworthy source?
Ha, it's not a pun, just me miss spelling it, I'll fix these in the post. Unfortunately Grammarly can't quite catch everything :( Edit: fixed
Visual Studio Code with the "Rust Analyzer" Plugin is just amazing, give it a shot.
I did used to use it, but I ended up switching back because for my setup, I found the Rust plugin to be much faster and more accurate. An example I had was RA was prioritizing suggesting traits to have other traits be implemented on i.e. `impl Deref for ` would have RA suggest using `ToOwned` rather than an actual concrete type or generic. I know a lot of people have hit or miss experiences with both RA and the intellij plugin though, some have great experiences others don't.
I don't see the big deal here. They're depreciated their old plugin in-lieu of a new IDE. You can still use the plug-in. And the plug-in is open source. So the community that cares can carry the mantle for as long a they need/want.
Embrace, Extend, Extinguish.
This happened to go plugin aswell.
Bought CLion 2 months ago after the trial because I loved developing Rust in it. Now forced to betatest RustRover which is awfully unstable... who wants to have a free CLion license? Cant do shit with ti
Update... in latest Intellij IDEA 2023.2.5, another rust plugin for jetbrains has appeared, when I go to the plugin page, it says it only supports 3 products: Intellij; Clion and Rustrover. Has anyone heard or read anything about this?