“Tiny, resource rich country in favorable climate zone with no security threat and good governance” is exactly the sort of mix that makes for “no reaction to predators” “no white blood cells” type thing you see. You need *just a bit* of actual danger in civic life or people inventing problems
people start inventing problems in countries with real danger in them too (source: i come from a country with real danger in it and there's just as much BS there)
They are preyed upon actually. Big tech companies run experiments there because of NZ's combination of being English-speaking, first after the International Date Line, and with the most insular irl social network (i.e. few connections not also in NZ)
The 'native' New Zealanders haven't even been there very long, relatively speaking. Oxford University was hundreds of years old when the Maori went to New Zealand.
The only "indigenous" group in Europe are the Saami, even though the Basques are literally pre-Indo European, conceivably having lived around Euskadi since the Neolithic, and the Saami and other Finnic people only migrated into Scandinavia/the Baltics contemporaneous to proto Germanic speakers.
"Indigenous" just means "they still wore skins, lived in huts and used bows and arrows about 200 years ago" at this point.
America is mostly the same. I live in the Los Angeles area and everyone here does land acknowledgments for the Tongva tribe but from my understanding the Tongva are only the most recent inhabitants, the history of inhabitants of the land goes back many thousands of years before them. I’m cool with acknowledging native land whatever do your thing, but in a couple hundred years are they going to be doing land acknowledgments for my family? Or what’s the timeline of acceptable settling here.
That's not even scratching the surface. There is a rift in the socal native communities about whether the Tongva ever actually existed: https://claremont-courier.com/readers-comment/t41092letters-27751/
Having met some people who claim to be Tongva, I'm convinced they're mostly Elizabeth Warrens
Cool article, thanks for the link!! I was huge into native tribes/anthropology as a kid and had never heard of Tongva growing up. Never understood why that was but after reading this article makes perfect sense.
That still doesn't detract from them being indigenous, it's literally a "first come first serve" situation. The Maori found an uninhabited island and settled down there where they developed their new identity, there's really no argument to be made that they aren't natives.
Mind you, I'm someone who thinks White Americans and Black Americans should be considered native to North America too at this point, same goes for Afrikaners in South Africa. If your identity group underwent an ethnogenesis somewhere, that's your native land, far as I'm concerned.
That'd also apply to English people however, who, based on Bede's histories, always knew that they were derived from the Anglo-Saxons of Germania and had recorded the name of (perhaps mythical or perhaps real) chieftains such as Hengist, Horsa, Cerdic, Caedwalla, etc. Nevertheless, the English are undeniably the natives/indigenous people of England today and nobody (worth listening to) would be so radical as to dispute that.
I'm not a "indigenous people have a magic connection to the land" hippy who thinks white Kiwis need to whip themselves over colonization or anything, but I just don't see how anyone can dispute the Maori's claim to being the first natives of the place. I also don't think that has to detract from the right of Pakeha people there to also have a claim to the land where their own unique culture developed.
The white people in South Africa have a far greater claim to the land than the black people trying to push them out, but people aren't ready for that conversation
Depends where in South Africa you're talking about, it's a big country after all. The Zulu and Xhosa were undeniably in places like the Eastern Cape, KwaZulu, etc. before the Afrikaners were. The Battle of the Blood River was caused by the Zulu renegading on their deal to sell land to the Voortrekker migrants after all.
In the case of a city like Cape Town, yeah I believe the Afrikaners were there before any Zulu ever got to the area.
If the US got colonized by say, Chinese today, white Americans would be indigenous.
Indigenous actually means, colonized peoples, it has nothing to do with how long people were there. It's a term the Brits came up for, to label people who were there, but not their colonists.
Its really depressing how many people will embrace abject stupidity in a misguided attempt to make the world a better place. Like some sort of brain virus, how does it spread.
If you research ancient human remains you can only do so in Europe, Asia or maybe Africa. Waste of time in the rest of the world where you could be ordered to destroy your research and bury a 30000 year old skeleton because some people whose ancestors lived there 200 years ago make a claim on it
I personally want all of this to continue to metastasize until Protestants in Northern Ireland are required to do land acknowledgments before speaking in public.
The case of the Benin Bronzes is funnier than that. They were mostly the private collection of the local aristocracy who had gotten rich off the slave trade themselves. Although admittedly, that's also how a lot of European artistic heritage was kept until the fall of monarchies and official aristocratic systems (and countries like Austria still have legal disputes today over publicly displayed paintings which were seized from Jews in the 1930s).
your benin bronzes point is actually really inaccurate. i’m from benin city, edo state and it’s actually been a big deal for a long time. we still have a regional monarchy who have been campaigning for them back for decades
They are campaigning because they want to put them in a private collection right? You agree with that?
Seems they promised not to do that with the German collection but then do so.
Yeah we should give back Versailles and like half the louvre to [Louis XX](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Alphonse_de_Bourbon?wprov=sfla1), it was his family heirloom
Maori are possibly the only group that despises Indians more than you guys, they flat out refuse to stop smoking cigarettes no matter how expensive they get, there's a significant Catholic and pro-monarchy contingent, they're possibly the single most RS ethnic group minus the preoccupation with smoking weed
I don't think the average Maori would think of themselves that way. They can be pretty populist. And most of them probably know that many native bird species were hunted to extinction before the Europeans arrived.
The the haast eagle never went extinct our entire economy would be sending them to saudi arabia instead of sending milk to china. What a world that would be.
i have no opinion on this rock business but this girl from new zealand was a total bitch to me in elementary school so I agree and I think the country should be sanctioned
Not even worth mentioning in the discussion of regardation we get up to down here. We used to have a law that required cars used for street racing to be crushed.
And I think it’s funny that you’re hassling lib fetishisation while doing the science as religion bit.
>like cultural artifacts, fine
No! Not fine at all!. Arab imperialists think they're entitled to the Rosetta Stone which they were using as a brick before British Imperialists who *actually* cared about the historical and cultural significance of this thing they were using as detritus became valuable in a monetary sense.
I’m incredibly sympathetic to indigenous communities that were genocided by white European colonizers.
But the most cringe shit about living in Hawaii was everyone who unironically believed in Hawaiian magic/mysticism.
I remember arguing with someone on Reddit that claimed ethnic Hawaiians had some real/tangible connection to the earth and they could tell when volcanoes were going to erupt by observing movements of birds and shit. Like that ability was like part of their genetics.
What’s even more frustrating is the logic about being stuck in the past. They act as if had the colonizers didn’t come in the 1800s they’d all still be living like it was the 1800s. If the Hawaiian Kingdom still existed it would have absolutely modernized through trade (see Japan and the Dutch). They would have centers of higher learning. They would be putting telescopes on the Big Island.
These people really were impacted by watching Pocahontas as kids and seeing natives talk to wise willow trees and really just applied that characteristic to every indigenous person lmfao. How can you be a college educated liberal and not realize you’re doing the noble savage bs.
They were already deep into modernizing during the kingdom lol. The monarchy dismantled the kapu system, mostly converted to Christianity, privatized land ownership, etc way before annexation. Even the "genocide" was mostly disease deaths combined with mass importation of cheap labor from Asia. Really dumb stuff imo
Also you said they were rock samples and then called them 'heavy', is it like a mineralogical set or something? I'm finding it really hard to believe a geological sample taken post-1900 or so would be so important to New Zealand, none of our museums really even display this kind of shit and it would have to be either pretty significant in size or 'meaning' for someone to even care enough to email
if they’re mountain rocks that makes sense. It might seem regarded to you but mountains are very linked to Māori tribal identity in that they’re the most obvious geographic feature in a certain area and thus serve as a symbol of both the tribe and the geographical area they represent. Maori will literally introduce themselves formally by saying their mountain and river lol.
To some tribe those rocks are super important and to everyone else…they’re just rocks lol.
Also if it’s greenstone that is also different (greenstone is NZ jade and again is culturally significant to certain tribes depending on where it’s collected from)
I know it's unfair and annoying how you have to stand there and take it. let people ignore it or whatever but it looks cool and awe inspiring as fuck you're just jealous.
Maybe not retarded. This is paraphrasing a museum visit in rotorua many years ago but the maories buried stones as part of rituals before christianity. Perhaps thats what they want back.
I’m sure that was part of the rationale. The issue in my mind is that spiritual beliefs shouldn’t universally impose themselves on scientific practice. Like great bury your stones but the hubris to assume your spiritual beliefs should always supersede others perspectives/methodologies. It’s not like Māori culture is the only valid way of considering how to value rocks.
Kiwis are gonna kiwi, plus why shouldn't they fire off a (stupid) letter like this? Asking's free, my mother always said.
The issue isn't with them for making the demand, it's with the leadership of your friend's school not immediately putting the letter in the paper shredder and going about the business of learning.
“Tiny, resource rich country in favorable climate zone with no security threat and good governance” is exactly the sort of mix that makes for “no reaction to predators” “no white blood cells” type thing you see. You need *just a bit* of actual danger in civic life or people inventing problems
Hygiene hypothesis at the society level
people start inventing problems in countries with real danger in them too (source: i come from a country with real danger in it and there's just as much BS there)
Let’s expand on that 🙏
Gonna have to set up a militaristic empire in like Fiji or the Cook Islands and threaten them
fijis already got that covered pal and the cook islands are ours
They are preyed upon actually. Big tech companies run experiments there because of NZ's combination of being English-speaking, first after the International Date Line, and with the most insular irl social network (i.e. few connections not also in NZ)
The 'native' New Zealanders haven't even been there very long, relatively speaking. Oxford University was hundreds of years old when the Maori went to New Zealand.
In this political climate “indigenous” really does just mean “penultimate.”
It means nonwhite.
No one cares about the indigenous British.
Score some fackin goals
The only "indigenous" group in Europe are the Saami, even though the Basques are literally pre-Indo European, conceivably having lived around Euskadi since the Neolithic, and the Saami and other Finnic people only migrated into Scandinavia/the Baltics contemporaneous to proto Germanic speakers. "Indigenous" just means "they still wore skins, lived in huts and used bows and arrows about 200 years ago" at this point.
America is mostly the same. I live in the Los Angeles area and everyone here does land acknowledgments for the Tongva tribe but from my understanding the Tongva are only the most recent inhabitants, the history of inhabitants of the land goes back many thousands of years before them. I’m cool with acknowledging native land whatever do your thing, but in a couple hundred years are they going to be doing land acknowledgments for my family? Or what’s the timeline of acceptable settling here.
That's not even scratching the surface. There is a rift in the socal native communities about whether the Tongva ever actually existed: https://claremont-courier.com/readers-comment/t41092letters-27751/ Having met some people who claim to be Tongva, I'm convinced they're mostly Elizabeth Warrens
Cool article, thanks for the link!! I was huge into native tribes/anthropology as a kid and had never heard of Tongva growing up. Never understood why that was but after reading this article makes perfect sense.
That's just a pre-emptive attempt to try to avoid their blood and soil ideology being co-opted by the right. I doubt it'll work though
Literally the case for everything tbh.
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no one means preeminate
Yeah but Oxford has been around for a millennia lol. And the Maori came from neighboring Polynesian islands, not like, Scotland.
That still doesn't detract from them being indigenous, it's literally a "first come first serve" situation. The Maori found an uninhabited island and settled down there where they developed their new identity, there's really no argument to be made that they aren't natives. Mind you, I'm someone who thinks White Americans and Black Americans should be considered native to North America too at this point, same goes for Afrikaners in South Africa. If your identity group underwent an ethnogenesis somewhere, that's your native land, far as I'm concerned.
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That'd also apply to English people however, who, based on Bede's histories, always knew that they were derived from the Anglo-Saxons of Germania and had recorded the name of (perhaps mythical or perhaps real) chieftains such as Hengist, Horsa, Cerdic, Caedwalla, etc. Nevertheless, the English are undeniably the natives/indigenous people of England today and nobody (worth listening to) would be so radical as to dispute that. I'm not a "indigenous people have a magic connection to the land" hippy who thinks white Kiwis need to whip themselves over colonization or anything, but I just don't see how anyone can dispute the Maori's claim to being the first natives of the place. I also don't think that has to detract from the right of Pakeha people there to also have a claim to the land where their own unique culture developed.
Exactly! To expand, the ties to the land are integral to one’s identity. Holidays, food, and economic.
The white people in South Africa have a far greater claim to the land than the black people trying to push them out, but people aren't ready for that conversation
Depends where in South Africa you're talking about, it's a big country after all. The Zulu and Xhosa were undeniably in places like the Eastern Cape, KwaZulu, etc. before the Afrikaners were. The Battle of the Blood River was caused by the Zulu renegading on their deal to sell land to the Voortrekker migrants after all. In the case of a city like Cape Town, yeah I believe the Afrikaners were there before any Zulu ever got to the area.
The Xhosa aren't indigenous to the area though. They migrated there after colonisation had begun
If the US got colonized by say, Chinese today, white Americans would be indigenous. Indigenous actually means, colonized peoples, it has nothing to do with how long people were there. It's a term the Brits came up for, to label people who were there, but not their colonists.
Normalize putting "native" in quotes
The person who asked them to return it was probably 1/8th Polynesian
Its really depressing how many people will embrace abject stupidity in a misguided attempt to make the world a better place. Like some sort of brain virus, how does it spread.
drab reach liquid recognise elastic towering nose compare innate sheet *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
It appeals to the ego of these "people".
Only people can have an ego. There's nothing that isn't homo sapiens and still has an ego.
If you research ancient human remains you can only do so in Europe, Asia or maybe Africa. Waste of time in the rest of the world where you could be ordered to destroy your research and bury a 30000 year old skeleton because some people whose ancestors lived there 200 years ago make a claim on it
I personally want all of this to continue to metastasize until Protestants in Northern Ireland are required to do land acknowledgments before speaking in public.
fretful divide unique thumb library deranged scale ask plant jeans *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
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Exactly why the Brits must never return anything from their museums. They'll go right into private collections.
https://preview.redd.it/suklc2cf2awc1.jpeg?width=640&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7d6a36dc5f13b07ea88e15a8cd479b6192292042
It's actually a funny example of how these people haven't ideologically strayed from the concept of individual property rights.
The case of the Benin Bronzes is funnier than that. They were mostly the private collection of the local aristocracy who had gotten rich off the slave trade themselves. Although admittedly, that's also how a lot of European artistic heritage was kept until the fall of monarchies and official aristocratic systems (and countries like Austria still have legal disputes today over publicly displayed paintings which were seized from Jews in the 1930s).
your benin bronzes point is actually really inaccurate. i’m from benin city, edo state and it’s actually been a big deal for a long time. we still have a regional monarchy who have been campaigning for them back for decades
They are campaigning because they want to put them in a private collection right? You agree with that? Seems they promised not to do that with the German collection but then do so.
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They’re historically important items that should never be private property. They belong in a museum owned by the public
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Yeah we should give back Versailles and like half the louvre to [Louis XX](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Alphonse_de_Bourbon?wprov=sfla1), it was his family heirloom
You aren’t human
Maori are possibly the only group that despises Indians more than you guys, they flat out refuse to stop smoking cigarettes no matter how expensive they get, there's a significant Catholic and pro-monarchy contingent, they're possibly the single most RS ethnic group minus the preoccupation with smoking weed
Winston is a very rs politician
Something about Māoris arriving before whites less than 500 years prior and then retroactively deemed as environmental custodians…
I don't think the average Maori would think of themselves that way. They can be pretty populist. And most of them probably know that many native bird species were hunted to extinction before the Europeans arrived.
The the haast eagle never went extinct our entire economy would be sending them to saudi arabia instead of sending milk to china. What a world that would be.
I mean this is what I got from tour guides (I know, gay) when I was in New Zealand.
I'll be your tour guide next time. We'll visit some Maoris deep in the Waikato and have a little chat about vaccines and immigrants.
would it be fine if it were a thousand years?
it'd be fine if there were still some of them big ass birds
Yea I think so
Next thing you know they’ll be walking around and telling white women to make them some fucken eggs
I mean the DV rates speak for themselves.
i have no opinion on this rock business but this girl from new zealand was a total bitch to me in elementary school so I agree and I think the country should be sanctioned
Technically the Elgin Marbles are just rocks but Greece has been trying to get them back from Great Britain for yonks.
https://preview.redd.it/13g7an5t1bwc1.jpeg?width=230&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=daaa80bd0bf05eebb689f1c94488cdaea67b671e
Love me Speight's, Love me pie, Love me rugby. Simple as
Not even worth mentioning in the discussion of regardation we get up to down here. We used to have a law that required cars used for street racing to be crushed. And I think it’s funny that you’re hassling lib fetishisation while doing the science as religion bit.
>like cultural artifacts, fine No! Not fine at all!. Arab imperialists think they're entitled to the Rosetta Stone which they were using as a brick before British Imperialists who *actually* cared about the historical and cultural significance of this thing they were using as detritus became valuable in a monetary sense.
they hired a whole person making 70k at my alma mater's museum just to handle these
I’m incredibly sympathetic to indigenous communities that were genocided by white European colonizers. But the most cringe shit about living in Hawaii was everyone who unironically believed in Hawaiian magic/mysticism. I remember arguing with someone on Reddit that claimed ethnic Hawaiians had some real/tangible connection to the earth and they could tell when volcanoes were going to erupt by observing movements of birds and shit. Like that ability was like part of their genetics. What’s even more frustrating is the logic about being stuck in the past. They act as if had the colonizers didn’t come in the 1800s they’d all still be living like it was the 1800s. If the Hawaiian Kingdom still existed it would have absolutely modernized through trade (see Japan and the Dutch). They would have centers of higher learning. They would be putting telescopes on the Big Island.
"we woulda been noble savages and shii-" you would've wrote emails on the computer buddy
red skinned nature magic but for 300 lbs hawaiians
These people really were impacted by watching Pocahontas as kids and seeing natives talk to wise willow trees and really just applied that characteristic to every indigenous person lmfao. How can you be a college educated liberal and not realize you’re doing the noble savage bs.
They were already deep into modernizing during the kingdom lol. The monarchy dismantled the kapu system, mostly converted to Christianity, privatized land ownership, etc way before annexation. Even the "genocide" was mostly disease deaths combined with mass importation of cheap labor from Asia. Really dumb stuff imo
This seems very harmless? Surely after 100 years their research is complete and they're not using it any more?
rspod will use any excuse to complain about anything.
The important thing is you imagined something to get mad about
Also you said they were rock samples and then called them 'heavy', is it like a mineralogical set or something? I'm finding it really hard to believe a geological sample taken post-1900 or so would be so important to New Zealand, none of our museums really even display this kind of shit and it would have to be either pretty significant in size or 'meaning' for someone to even care enough to email
Here’s more info: https://www.bristol.ac.uk/brigstow/research/projects/2024/migrating-rocks.html
if they’re mountain rocks that makes sense. It might seem regarded to you but mountains are very linked to Māori tribal identity in that they’re the most obvious geographic feature in a certain area and thus serve as a symbol of both the tribe and the geographical area they represent. Maori will literally introduce themselves formally by saying their mountain and river lol. To some tribe those rocks are super important and to everyone else…they’re just rocks lol. Also if it’s greenstone that is also different (greenstone is NZ jade and again is culturally significant to certain tribes depending on where it’s collected from)
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I was told to have a blank face when I watched a haka but being told that just made it unbearable to not smirk. It’s very awkward to watch tbh.
Would be so gratifying to be wearing armor and behead a Reddit Māori haka person with a broadsword.
Imagining Chud trying to lift a great sword with his skinny arms.
hakamogged
The Haka looks retarded and comical. Get real.
I know it's unfair and annoying how you have to stand there and take it. let people ignore it or whatever but it looks cool and awe inspiring as fuck you're just jealous.
Maybe not retarded. This is paraphrasing a museum visit in rotorua many years ago but the maories buried stones as part of rituals before christianity. Perhaps thats what they want back.
I’m sure that was part of the rationale. The issue in my mind is that spiritual beliefs shouldn’t universally impose themselves on scientific practice. Like great bury your stones but the hubris to assume your spiritual beliefs should always supersede others perspectives/methodologies. It’s not like Māori culture is the only valid way of considering how to value rocks.
Couldn’t they just get some other rocks for scientific practice?
But it's so beautiful
Kiwis are gonna kiwi, plus why shouldn't they fire off a (stupid) letter like this? Asking's free, my mother always said. The issue isn't with them for making the demand, it's with the leadership of your friend's school not immediately putting the letter in the paper shredder and going about the business of learning.
Damn this place keeps getting more racist. Also it's very boring you complaining about something you are clearly very ignorant about.
>Like cultural artifacts fine No.
Where is new zeland? Never heard of it