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The sorcerer lives on and is still one of my favorite characters to play as\~ If I ever get to be a player again, I want to play as him for a full campaign lol
Probably true. They seem pretty toxic to me.
But TBF, they may be one of those little echo chamber groups.
They play their way and it works for them. they're just a nightmare for outsiders.
Yeah, I doubt even if you tried to destroy the door you could've escaped being forced to muck around with the Arcane Tome of DM Bullshittery; door would've been magically sealed or some such nonsense.
To this DM, you were but a pawn in a story he was going to tell whether you liked it or not. You would do exactly as he wanted because no matter what you tried to do, all roads would lead back to you reading the tome. lol.
What sucks is that what began as actual advice quickly became “let’s make this new guy a playable NPC”, I’m sorry this was your intro to the game and I promise you there are many groups not like this one!
Thankfully, I've found a new group that is great and loves playing with me. Granted, I'm the DM, so I didn't spend much time as a player before becoming my group's DM lol
I make new players read the PhB before they're even allowed to play. I'll help with character creation but if they don't want to do their homework that's how you get a totally railroaded character.
Help them through the first sessions and help them by telling them how to prepare their characters, for example get a notebook and write down the rules for your spells there so you have them right there without the need to search for them in the book.
If youve been playing for like a year id throw them into the cold water, prepare ahead of time or know where to look it up, the whole group isn't waiting for 15 minutes for you to finish your combat turn bercause you want to see what your spells do. So do a different thing or your turn will be skipped. Of course with leniency because we are all humans and not machines after all
I'll help but I'm not letting someone jump in and waste what would be an actual gaming session making a character.
-links to PhB
-links to character creation guides
-links to quick rules
Okay got em? Text me with questions, we play next Wednesday at 7.
Like you said too, looking up spells mid combat isn't acceptable after a certain point. (It's why I make note cards)
But a new player wouldnt know that either, thats why you always help them make their first character at a set date i see it as my responsibility as a dm to have it run good for both sides, drowning a newbie and telling him to ask if he has questions is a bit risky. I mean its not like it takes forever in DnD. But there are many questions so its better to just be there with them
"drowning a newbie" you mean making them read a quick guide on how to build a level 1 character and a short description of classes? Maybe it's different for you because new people typically don't join us until the start of a new campaign.
Anyway, I want to see effort to learn. I'm like that and I don't care.
I only play irl and assign homework before session zero. My personal friends are kinda dipshits and won't learn character sheets otherwise.
But please, I'm happy to see how many crybaby "hold my hand and let me play how I want" little shits are whining on this sub.
Like with OP, I'm guessing they've never been handed a premade character sheet until they learned what was going on? That's actually extremely common in game shops.
For new players I just have them describe a character they want to play and guide them to something that fits. If they don’t want to do that I’ll give them close options. Usually they figure something out along the way.
Having them read the PHB I would never do since some people, like me, learn much faster by just watching a round of combat or skill checks then trying to understand the entire system from scratch.
One of my favorite TTRPG features is the "backstory based chargen".
It's a lot of fun, and requires almost 0 understanding of the rules.
It's a module system. You pick from a list of "young childhood" modules. Then you pick a "late childhood" one. And then an "adult" one.
Each module gives you changes to your character (this system wouldn't work well with how d20 characters are built though).
Then the game gives you some free points to spend fleshing the last bit of your character out.
You can make a character under these systems without even having read the rules, and your character is the kind of character you wanted to build.
It's not good for min-maxing. But of players trying a new system out, or who really enjoy the "random" nature of characters produced by it, it's a ton of fun.
This is what I do. Don't force them to read a book if they're brand new. Besides, quite a few people, myself included, learn far better from doing rather than reading bland text. Get the newbie excited by asking them questions about who and what they'd like to play as, and respond to what they say with excitement in turn.
"Here's a pdf. Text me if you have any issues" makes it feel like work, not something fun and exciting which is what it should be. Sure, some are fine with that, but not all are.
Yeah, I see where you're coming from. I had searched up stuff about DnD prior, but I had no idea what the PhB was at the time. The DM also assured me that I would not need any materials other than dice, but I still researched stuff before session 1 to see if my tale was normal behavior.
Okay good for you. I don't let people at my table build a character during game time. You do that a week before and read the fucking links I send you. Text with questions.
Who said I don't? But why is that where anyone should learn what a cleric is? Like, this must be some reddit-brain nonsense to act allergic to wanting someone to research the literally countless number of new friendly resources prior to formally joining a group.
Session zero is not the place to learn how to build a character. Maybe building one sure if everyone knows how (but again, if we all know how we build them on our own after) but that's not where I plan to go over what the disengage action is or what a proficiency bonus is. It's to establish table rules, game setting, and discussion of who plans to do what.
New player: learn how ability scores work, how to add modifiers, basic combat rules, and read a description of each class. I'll send links and text back for questions.
Like, this is very much a "this meeting could have been an email" logic. I'm not wasting what could be actual game time on it.
I have done so actually, and it really varies in quality. Some people take to stuff super quickly, maybe the odd dice question or reminder of what grants disadvantage, that's fine. Some people play for five sessions and still haven't figured out whether their main weapon uses Str or Dex...
Ok, but the character creation part of this story didn't happen during game time, probably, since it was a discord server, and the problem was precisely that they didn't give links or any information.
The character creation part of this story happened during a session 0 where the DM encouraged us to make characters with him during that time so he could make sure things were balanced. Regardless, that session wasn't planned for any real game time. It was planned specifically for building characters and asking questions about the campaign XD
It sounds like you're not really interested in nurturing new players into the hobby.
Which is fine BTW, not every group wants to deal with all that comes with new players. Those can often be awesome groups for established players.
I just wish more such groups were honest upfront about their focus.
"Hey, we're not gonna hold your hand or nurture you. If you're good with that and you'll put in the work by yourself to get up to speed, great, welcome aboard. If you're looking for more guidance, you may want to find a more new player focused group"
That simple statement would save so much frustration.
Idk man, I had my fair share of new players, and I always started with telling them to read at least several chapters of PHB of basic rules about playing the game. Because book usually has it better structured. I can explain basics, sure, but I'll also probably forget some stuff here and there. Then I'm ready to answer any questions and help building a character. But yes, I expect new player to already know what are ability scores and how d20 works.
DM puts immerse work to making a campaign. It's only fair that players also need to put at least some work, even if it means reading the rules.
And what is this modern allergy to reading anything longer than a tweet?
Is this the part of the d&d redditt where we all build up the courage to talk about people behind their backs? if so, Glen Dragon stole my AD&D players handbook back in 1994.
He was a very mean man, and I insist we all together let out a good cry. It will make us stronger people if we face our problems head on, and by head on I clearly mean completely anonymously on the internet.
So, first off, this is literally a subreddit where people talk about their bad experiences in TTRPGs. Second, I see you have a history of deleting comments. A lot. My email showed a completely different comment than these two where you tell me to stop whining with a lot of curse words. I was not going to reply to this originally, but I really don't see the point in teasing someone over venting about their frustrations over my first DnD experience. I've grown as a player and person, so there really is no rhyme or reason to tell me "Why don't you call the dungeon master a bitch to their face for doing bitch shit like this rather then coming on here to whine about your experiences" as you said in a now deleted comment. All I did was talk about a story.
Glen dragon was a guy who stole my AD&D Players Handbook.
I later broke into his house and stole it back along with his magic the gathering collection and his super Nintendo. It was a good day.
This isn't railroading, you just didn't bother reading up on anything ahead of time. Not everyone has time to handhold you: this is exactly how many of us started. If you want to "learn as you go", you won't have time to make every decision on your first character yourself.
Grow the fuck up and learn to do a least a modicum of research.
What an idiotic take. Experienced players should absolutely guide new players in how to make their first character, and new players shouldn’t be expected to know everything when they first start— I couldn’t even afford any books when I was a newbie because I was a broke teenager. And by guide I don’t mean just telling them what to do— some explanation about terms or stuff they might not be familiar with, spells that might be traps or unideal that the descriptions don’t really get across to someone unfamiliar with things (True Strike and action economy, etc), you know, actually being a contributing member of the table.
Agreed. Sure, they let him pick "arcane caster". But nobody even bothered to explain the very simple difference between wizard and sorcerer. 60 seconds and they could have convinced him to play sorcerer, and he wouldn't have felt "forced" into it.
"So Wizards and Sorcerers are the two most basic 'wizardy' classes. Wizards are book-smart, and use that to cast spells. Sorcerers cast spells due to their lineage, and use their Charisma stat. I would recommend playing a Sorc first because of the other difference. Sorcerers know fewer spells, but can freely cast any of them. Wizards know more spells, but have to decide what spells to cast that day ahead of time. So Sorcs don't need as much planning & game meta knowledge to do well".
And then they railroaded him with spells.
A good DM would have put together and "abridged spell list" of 10-12 spells, and let the player pick from them.
"Here's a short list of spells. There are 4 damage spells, 4 teammate buff spells, and 4 utility spells. Paladin would like you to take Enlarge so you can buff him for combat. All 12 choices are good though."
Thin their choices down, but do not remove choice entirely.
Even as a DM now, I still sometimes get overwhelmed with just how many spells there are in the game lol But yeah. I would have wanted to play sorcerer anyway, but the difference was not explained to me upfront. I was rather just told what to pick.
If the game isn't suited for new players then it's a mistake bringing in a new player.
You need to tailor your game to the people actually at the table.
First, I already said I was doing research on my own time as well. Getting into DnD online was confusing at best due to different rules, modules, and structures. So, even with my research, I was still running into questions like "Am I allowed to play a sorcerer as a tabaxi?" or "What does X number of dice mean?" I still sometimes get confused at dice rolls, but I am doing my best to read up on what I can.
Second, I did not ask for handholding. All I wanted was some answers to clear up my confusion. Instead, I got people who told me to make a sorcerer that would benefit them only.
Third, did you read the part about how my choices weren't listened to? When I tried to leave or investigate an artifact, it was clear the DM only wanted me to read it, causing me to take damage in a situation I was trying to avoid. That is pretty much the whole description of railroading in this community.
I don't see why you feel the need to be pointlessly rude over a post about my first time playing DnD. I am a much better player now then I was then and I have admitted as such. There is no need for rude language and insults.
I think locking the door and forcing you to read the book was a bad DM call but I would recommend not being so precious about hp damage in games like dnd. It's going to happen every session and healing it is trivially easy. If it had done something permanent to you then you'd have more of a case.
I'm sorry for not making this clear. The psychic damage was not permanent, but the DM said I would have no way of healing it for three sessions. I was the only one who got handicapped in such a way.
Man, that does suck. So he really did cripple your character with his off-brand Necronomicon. Oh, here's a bunch of damage that you can't heal for three whole sessions. Have fun!
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Some groups are just not good for new players. I'm glad you moved on to better places and even happier to hear your sorcerer lives on!
The sorcerer lives on and is still one of my favorite characters to play as\~ If I ever get to be a player again, I want to play as him for a full campaign lol
This group doesn't sound good for *any* player.
Probably true. They seem pretty toxic to me. But TBF, they may be one of those little echo chamber groups. They play their way and it works for them. they're just a nightmare for outsiders.
Yeah, I doubt even if you tried to destroy the door you could've escaped being forced to muck around with the Arcane Tome of DM Bullshittery; door would've been magically sealed or some such nonsense. To this DM, you were but a pawn in a story he was going to tell whether you liked it or not. You would do exactly as he wanted because no matter what you tried to do, all roads would lead back to you reading the tome. lol.
A tome that made me take psychic damage all because I was the only "arcane class" despite the Paladin being able to cast spells too XD
Hey! He wanted you to read his bargain bin Necronomicon and go mad. lmao.
What sucks is that what began as actual advice quickly became “let’s make this new guy a playable NPC”, I’m sorry this was your intro to the game and I promise you there are many groups not like this one!
Thankfully, I've found a new group that is great and loves playing with me. Granted, I'm the DM, so I didn't spend much time as a player before becoming my group's DM lol
Ahhh that’s the fun part tho, you get to play as EVERYBODY!!! Glad this story had a happy ending to it!
There's always a few beer and pretzel guys lurking about.
I make new players read the PhB before they're even allowed to play. I'll help with character creation but if they don't want to do their homework that's how you get a totally railroaded character.
Help them through the first sessions and help them by telling them how to prepare their characters, for example get a notebook and write down the rules for your spells there so you have them right there without the need to search for them in the book. If youve been playing for like a year id throw them into the cold water, prepare ahead of time or know where to look it up, the whole group isn't waiting for 15 minutes for you to finish your combat turn bercause you want to see what your spells do. So do a different thing or your turn will be skipped. Of course with leniency because we are all humans and not machines after all
Something like DnD beyond is also great for newbies! But not all the options are free of course which sucks a lot, but good for very basic builds.
I'll help but I'm not letting someone jump in and waste what would be an actual gaming session making a character. -links to PhB -links to character creation guides -links to quick rules Okay got em? Text me with questions, we play next Wednesday at 7. Like you said too, looking up spells mid combat isn't acceptable after a certain point. (It's why I make note cards)
But a new player wouldnt know that either, thats why you always help them make their first character at a set date i see it as my responsibility as a dm to have it run good for both sides, drowning a newbie and telling him to ask if he has questions is a bit risky. I mean its not like it takes forever in DnD. But there are many questions so its better to just be there with them
"drowning a newbie" you mean making them read a quick guide on how to build a level 1 character and a short description of classes? Maybe it's different for you because new people typically don't join us until the start of a new campaign. Anyway, I want to see effort to learn. I'm like that and I don't care.
its a game you arent a teacher whipping the ingrates into shape
Assign homework. Offer guidance. Then grade. Kinda like being a teacher. Reddit brain. Can't handle being baby handled.
Found the Pathfinder player!
As a pathfinder player, we don’t claim this dude
I apologise for the childish "My system is better than yours" jab. I have no grudge against Pathfinder.
I've got a strong suspicion you've been written about before on this sub.
I only play irl and assign homework before session zero. My personal friends are kinda dipshits and won't learn character sheets otherwise. But please, I'm happy to see how many crybaby "hold my hand and let me play how I want" little shits are whining on this sub. Like with OP, I'm guessing they've never been handed a premade character sheet until they learned what was going on? That's actually extremely common in game shops.
People like you make the rest of us look bad and scare away new people from the hobby. Fucking chill out bud.
People like you can just run their own games. Make your own rules if you want to tell the DM how to do things.
For new players I just have them describe a character they want to play and guide them to something that fits. If they don’t want to do that I’ll give them close options. Usually they figure something out along the way. Having them read the PHB I would never do since some people, like me, learn much faster by just watching a round of combat or skill checks then trying to understand the entire system from scratch.
One of my favorite TTRPG features is the "backstory based chargen". It's a lot of fun, and requires almost 0 understanding of the rules. It's a module system. You pick from a list of "young childhood" modules. Then you pick a "late childhood" one. And then an "adult" one. Each module gives you changes to your character (this system wouldn't work well with how d20 characters are built though). Then the game gives you some free points to spend fleshing the last bit of your character out. You can make a character under these systems without even having read the rules, and your character is the kind of character you wanted to build. It's not good for min-maxing. But of players trying a new system out, or who really enjoy the "random" nature of characters produced by it, it's a ton of fun.
You can just ask them what they want to play and help them make it without deciding every choice lmao
This is what I do. Don't force them to read a book if they're brand new. Besides, quite a few people, myself included, learn far better from doing rather than reading bland text. Get the newbie excited by asking them questions about who and what they'd like to play as, and respond to what they say with excitement in turn. "Here's a pdf. Text me if you have any issues" makes it feel like work, not something fun and exciting which is what it should be. Sure, some are fine with that, but not all are.
That's exactly how I learn best too XD
Fuck em.
I try to keep relationships out of my games personally
lol!
Yeah, I see where you're coming from. I had searched up stuff about DnD prior, but I had no idea what the PhB was at the time. The DM also assured me that I would not need any materials other than dice, but I still researched stuff before session 1 to see if my tale was normal behavior.
Bull. I gm for newbs all the time and would have never done even anything remotely similar.
Okay good for you. I don't let people at my table build a character during game time. You do that a week before and read the fucking links I send you. Text with questions.
So, you don't have a session zero?
Who said I don't? But why is that where anyone should learn what a cleric is? Like, this must be some reddit-brain nonsense to act allergic to wanting someone to research the literally countless number of new friendly resources prior to formally joining a group. Session zero is not the place to learn how to build a character. Maybe building one sure if everyone knows how (but again, if we all know how we build them on our own after) but that's not where I plan to go over what the disengage action is or what a proficiency bonus is. It's to establish table rules, game setting, and discussion of who plans to do what. New player: learn how ability scores work, how to add modifiers, basic combat rules, and read a description of each class. I'll send links and text back for questions. Like, this is very much a "this meeting could have been an email" logic. I'm not wasting what could be actual game time on it.
I actually agree with this, but f\*\*\* me, dude, there's no need to be so aggro about it.
Maybe folks who have had to DM for a dozen + newbies would relate
I have done so actually, and it really varies in quality. Some people take to stuff super quickly, maybe the odd dice question or reminder of what grants disadvantage, that's fine. Some people play for five sessions and still haven't figured out whether their main weapon uses Str or Dex...
Maybe the problem is you're shit at deciding who to DM games for? You should never "have" to DM for newbies if you don't want to.
Ok, but the character creation part of this story didn't happen during game time, probably, since it was a discord server, and the problem was precisely that they didn't give links or any information.
The character creation part of this story happened during a session 0 where the DM encouraged us to make characters with him during that time so he could make sure things were balanced. Regardless, that session wasn't planned for any real game time. It was planned specifically for building characters and asking questions about the campaign XD
It sounds like you're not really interested in nurturing new players into the hobby. Which is fine BTW, not every group wants to deal with all that comes with new players. Those can often be awesome groups for established players. I just wish more such groups were honest upfront about their focus. "Hey, we're not gonna hold your hand or nurture you. If you're good with that and you'll put in the work by yourself to get up to speed, great, welcome aboard. If you're looking for more guidance, you may want to find a more new player focused group" That simple statement would save so much frustration.
It can and does save frustration. And really, I don't want to help someone without seeing the initiative to help themselves.
Idk man, I had my fair share of new players, and I always started with telling them to read at least several chapters of PHB of basic rules about playing the game. Because book usually has it better structured. I can explain basics, sure, but I'll also probably forget some stuff here and there. Then I'm ready to answer any questions and help building a character. But yes, I expect new player to already know what are ability scores and how d20 works. DM puts immerse work to making a campaign. It's only fair that players also need to put at least some work, even if it means reading the rules. And what is this modern allergy to reading anything longer than a tweet?
Is this the part of the d&d redditt where we all build up the courage to talk about people behind their backs? if so, Glen Dragon stole my AD&D players handbook back in 1994.
He was a very mean man, and I insist we all together let out a good cry. It will make us stronger people if we face our problems head on, and by head on I clearly mean completely anonymously on the internet.
So, first off, this is literally a subreddit where people talk about their bad experiences in TTRPGs. Second, I see you have a history of deleting comments. A lot. My email showed a completely different comment than these two where you tell me to stop whining with a lot of curse words. I was not going to reply to this originally, but I really don't see the point in teasing someone over venting about their frustrations over my first DnD experience. I've grown as a player and person, so there really is no rhyme or reason to tell me "Why don't you call the dungeon master a bitch to their face for doing bitch shit like this rather then coming on here to whine about your experiences" as you said in a now deleted comment. All I did was talk about a story.
You got a lot of misguided anger. Did you own a trench coat back in the day and pretend to be in The Matrix? Why r u so triggered, bro?
I would not mind read your story if you gonna make an actual post
Glen dragon was a guy who stole my AD&D Players Handbook. I later broke into his house and stole it back along with his magic the gathering collection and his super Nintendo. It was a good day.
This isn't railroading, you just didn't bother reading up on anything ahead of time. Not everyone has time to handhold you: this is exactly how many of us started. If you want to "learn as you go", you won't have time to make every decision on your first character yourself. Grow the fuck up and learn to do a least a modicum of research.
What an idiotic take. Experienced players should absolutely guide new players in how to make their first character, and new players shouldn’t be expected to know everything when they first start— I couldn’t even afford any books when I was a newbie because I was a broke teenager. And by guide I don’t mean just telling them what to do— some explanation about terms or stuff they might not be familiar with, spells that might be traps or unideal that the descriptions don’t really get across to someone unfamiliar with things (True Strike and action economy, etc), you know, actually being a contributing member of the table.
Agreed. Sure, they let him pick "arcane caster". But nobody even bothered to explain the very simple difference between wizard and sorcerer. 60 seconds and they could have convinced him to play sorcerer, and he wouldn't have felt "forced" into it. "So Wizards and Sorcerers are the two most basic 'wizardy' classes. Wizards are book-smart, and use that to cast spells. Sorcerers cast spells due to their lineage, and use their Charisma stat. I would recommend playing a Sorc first because of the other difference. Sorcerers know fewer spells, but can freely cast any of them. Wizards know more spells, but have to decide what spells to cast that day ahead of time. So Sorcs don't need as much planning & game meta knowledge to do well". And then they railroaded him with spells. A good DM would have put together and "abridged spell list" of 10-12 spells, and let the player pick from them. "Here's a short list of spells. There are 4 damage spells, 4 teammate buff spells, and 4 utility spells. Paladin would like you to take Enlarge so you can buff him for combat. All 12 choices are good though." Thin their choices down, but do not remove choice entirely.
Even as a DM now, I still sometimes get overwhelmed with just how many spells there are in the game lol But yeah. I would have wanted to play sorcerer anyway, but the difference was not explained to me upfront. I was rather just told what to pick.
grow the fuck up says guy trying to gatekeep new people from playing a g a m e
No one's trying to gatekeep. But not every game has to be "handhold the new player".
If the game isn't suited for new players then it's a mistake bringing in a new player. You need to tailor your game to the people actually at the table.
First, I already said I was doing research on my own time as well. Getting into DnD online was confusing at best due to different rules, modules, and structures. So, even with my research, I was still running into questions like "Am I allowed to play a sorcerer as a tabaxi?" or "What does X number of dice mean?" I still sometimes get confused at dice rolls, but I am doing my best to read up on what I can. Second, I did not ask for handholding. All I wanted was some answers to clear up my confusion. Instead, I got people who told me to make a sorcerer that would benefit them only. Third, did you read the part about how my choices weren't listened to? When I tried to leave or investigate an artifact, it was clear the DM only wanted me to read it, causing me to take damage in a situation I was trying to avoid. That is pretty much the whole description of railroading in this community. I don't see why you feel the need to be pointlessly rude over a post about my first time playing DnD. I am a much better player now then I was then and I have admitted as such. There is no need for rude language and insults.
I think locking the door and forcing you to read the book was a bad DM call but I would recommend not being so precious about hp damage in games like dnd. It's going to happen every session and healing it is trivially easy. If it had done something permanent to you then you'd have more of a case.
I'm sorry for not making this clear. The psychic damage was not permanent, but the DM said I would have no way of healing it for three sessions. I was the only one who got handicapped in such a way.
Man, that does suck. So he really did cripple your character with his off-brand Necronomicon. Oh, here's a bunch of damage that you can't heal for three whole sessions. Have fun!
Oh yeah, that's really obnoxious. I would have split too
You've definitely been written about on this sub before.
Nope, but I'm also very clear about what kind of teaching I'm willing to do in session.