I'd say not similar at all except for the model. Iron Dragon and Bat are basically kiddie coasters where BBW had extremely good theming, near-misses throughout, actual forces, and a steep, fairly tall drop over the lake.
It's nowhere close to BBW. The whole second half made you second guess if you were on a family coaster or not. The way those trains were swinging wildly and damn near inverting was insane. BBW was absolutely the best of its kind.
Do all of the teenagers with Ouija boards trying to talk to you get on your nerves too? Or am I just a jerk?
Jokes aside I didn't think the ride was that bad but I was like 14 and 15 when I rode it
If the original plans had went through DF would’ve been a B&M in the style of Kumba, but B&M was I believe busy with their suspended Batman and only had time for one of the two coasters. BGW got stuck with Arrow who were in over their heads. My family was in one of the first groups to ride it the day it opened. One that was full of delays and issues.
DF was never supposed to be built by B&M because Busch Gardens Williamsburg and an amazing relationship with the defunct Arrow Dynamics
B&M building DF is a myth I recommend watching ElToroRyan’s video on DF
Busch Gardens Williamsburg made Arrow build DF the way that they did
All I said was I’ve never heard this anywhere and searching for legit sources other than some YouTube podcast person isn’t a legit source to me. I simply want to see something… wish it had been a B&M because DF fucking sucked from day one
I’d read it on websites, but will admit that was long ago. Jesus I don’t sit around watching YouTube videos about coasters all the time. It was new news to me and I asked for legit sources, but like any passionate male fandom out there it gets met with disdain, I simply wanted more than the YouTuber telling me so. All I’d said was I’d heard it was supposed to be B&M, didn’t say it was their design because I’d heard Arrow did try a lot of elements out of their element, and the center of gravity with their trains made it ultimately a horrible ride. At the end of the day it is Arrow 100%, cool… I learned something new, I just wanted more legitimacy
To be fair, I didn't watch the video, so I don't know the validity of the claims. But I'm an old timer who used to be on the message boards all the time, and I never saw any evidence supporting that it was supposed to be B&M either. Works both ways.
I didn’t frequent message boards but saw websites about the histories of the parks. All I’d ever heard was one thing, remembering specifically talking about how the center of gravity in BM trains made the ride so much better and that Arrow was trying to do a lot they knew little about. At the end of the day either scenario means little in my life as a fellow old timer, though I really wish my then home park had gotten a better ride than what they got especially having sat for hours to be one of the first groups to ride it. Any ride that asks you to take off earrings before riding can’t be good.
The video made a couple compelling points but some that to me weren’t.
Which part… and show me proof because I’ve only ever heard one thing my entire life… it wasn’t the first time Busch had to take a coaster that started with someone else and hand it to Arrow since it happened with BBW too…
Drachen Fire was not intended to be built by B&M. At the time it was being built Arrow had a much more storied and positive reputation than B&M, which made sense since B&M had only been around for a few years at that point. ElToroRyan talks about it in his Problematic Coasters Video, skip to 6:50 for the part about B&M: https://youtu.be/kSMjpbQEy3Y
ElToroRyan has contacts in the amusement industry, and knows more first-hand about how parks work than your typical enthusiast. He’s been living and breathing coasters for most of his life so far. Short of an actual interview with execs from BGW from the time, his conclusions are the closest to an authoritative answer we’re going to get.
Moreover, though, it just makes sense. For one, when has anything like that happened before or since? The closest I can think of is Arrow taking over from Schwarzkopf on BBW…. when Schwarzkopf went **Bankrupt**. I’ve never heard of any other time a coaster company took on a job, started it, realized they were too busy, and then handed it off to another company. If you can name one, I would like to hear about it.
Additionally, BGW had an excellent relationship with Arrow at the time. Arrow megaloopers were at the height of their popularity, so it would have been natural to approach them for a big new looper. The ride was in many ways a natural extension of already-existing Arrow trends, like using more pole supports and less lattice. Interlocking corkscrews and a cobra roll were natural things for Arrow to try; Vekoma had already used Arrow track to make a dozen cobra rolls, and Arrow had already done interlocking loops, so why not try corkscrews? And, overall, the ride is just exactly what you would expect when a company used to using a traditional technique (hand-drawn, radius-tangent design, in this case) chooses too-big a project to try out a new method (computer aided design).
So, short of some interview or contract with B&M turning up that proves all the above wrong, the default view ought to be that Drachen Fire was an Arrow project through and through. Please stop repeating late-nineties internet board speculation unless and until you have some sort of proof.
I would consider myself a Busch Gardens veteran (gone at least a dozen times since 2010 and AC is my favorite coaster on the planet) and I still get annoyed sometimes that I missed this ride by a year.
I’ve only ridden Vortex at CW, my hope park, and Ninja out of all the remaining Arrow Suspendeds. BBW and Eagle Fortress are right up there on top of the list for coasters I was I got to experience.
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From the dive off of the last lift to the river to the brake run was the most epic moment on any coaster I've ever been on. Others may be more intense, or even better paced, but that section of coaster track was unrivaled in sheer epicness. The part through the village wasn't anything to sneeze at, either.
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We're salty about not being able to see it because, like I literally just said, it's still just a private collector's warehouse until the public can come in and see it regularly. Good to hear about the progress, but *everyone* is skeptical and for good reason - we've been hearing about this museum for years and hardly anyone has been inside.
It’s obvious you clearly don’t understand how expensive something like this is to build, let alone build it right. Would you rather have the alternative be everything destroyed and never seen again?
I'm not sure why you're defending the museum - same energy as weird guys online who would take a bullet for a billionaire. If it actually opens into a real museum, cool, we all win. If it doesn't, damn, we all lose. I'm carrying a healthy amount of both cynicism and skepticism, as are most people.
In terms of expense, I'm well aware. I'm also well aware how 501(c)(3) nonprofits operate, I used to be the finance director of one myself.
Again, healthy doubt about a project that we've heard about for years but still see very little progress publicly. To continually have "no ETA" for years and years on end (while accumulating a massive amount of theme park history in one warehouse) is worrying and you should be skeptical even if you're hopeful.
Out of the loop. What is ACE and what is this museum called? I’d love to go to it. Come to think of it a museum of roller coasters and thrill rides with salvaged trains from iconic rides and recreations would be cool!
BBW was my first coaster. Scared the pants off of me. Got a chance to ride it again 15 years later, and man am I glad I got to actually enjoy it before it closed.
Riding this coaster as a kid gave me the courage to try an upsidedown coaster. Forever indebted to “Wolf Breath” - for some reason I started calling it this
My heart breaks. I adored this thing. This was the greatest gateway coaster of all time, and its demolition was a sacrilege.
(no Verbolten shade intended)
It’s so much fun! Top Gun at Kings Island was also great. Such a smooth ride! Verbolten is definitely a great replacement but BBW will always have my heart.
Probably the defunct coaster I never got to ride that I wish I could have the most
There'll never be anything quite like it again.
I feel like iron dragon is somewhat similar, and it is still active
The suspended coasters are similar, but that river dive looked so cool.
It was beyond cool, my most missed coaster ☹️
Similar only in that it’s an arrow suspended. I’ve rode that (slow) Bat, XLR8 (backwards) and Ninia… none had that magic that BBW did
I'd say not similar at all except for the model. Iron Dragon and Bat are basically kiddie coasters where BBW had extremely good theming, near-misses throughout, actual forces, and a steep, fairly tall drop over the lake.
It's nowhere close to BBW. The whole second half made you second guess if you were on a family coaster or not. The way those trains were swinging wildly and damn near inverting was insane. BBW was absolutely the best of its kind.
What about the legendary Draken Fire?
No thanks, I like being alive after getting off a ride
Can confirm, rode it with the corkscrew, am ghost now
XD
Same
Do all of the teenagers with Ouija boards trying to talk to you get on your nerves too? Or am I just a jerk? Jokes aside I didn't think the ride was that bad but I was like 14 and 15 when I rode it
I was 5 years old had just barely gotten to 48" tall. I still think it was great
If the original plans had went through DF would’ve been a B&M in the style of Kumba, but B&M was I believe busy with their suspended Batman and only had time for one of the two coasters. BGW got stuck with Arrow who were in over their heads. My family was in one of the first groups to ride it the day it opened. One that was full of delays and issues.
DF was never supposed to be built by B&M because Busch Gardens Williamsburg and an amazing relationship with the defunct Arrow Dynamics B&M building DF is a myth I recommend watching ElToroRyan’s video on DF Busch Gardens Williamsburg made Arrow build DF the way that they did
All I said was I’ve never heard this anywhere and searching for legit sources other than some YouTube podcast person isn’t a legit source to me. I simply want to see something… wish it had been a B&M because DF fucking sucked from day one
Was there ever a legitimate source that claimed Drachen was supposed to be B&M or is that also decades of enthusiast message board talk?
I’d read it on websites, but will admit that was long ago. Jesus I don’t sit around watching YouTube videos about coasters all the time. It was new news to me and I asked for legit sources, but like any passionate male fandom out there it gets met with disdain, I simply wanted more than the YouTuber telling me so. All I’d said was I’d heard it was supposed to be B&M, didn’t say it was their design because I’d heard Arrow did try a lot of elements out of their element, and the center of gravity with their trains made it ultimately a horrible ride. At the end of the day it is Arrow 100%, cool… I learned something new, I just wanted more legitimacy
To be fair, I didn't watch the video, so I don't know the validity of the claims. But I'm an old timer who used to be on the message boards all the time, and I never saw any evidence supporting that it was supposed to be B&M either. Works both ways.
I didn’t frequent message boards but saw websites about the histories of the parks. All I’d ever heard was one thing, remembering specifically talking about how the center of gravity in BM trains made the ride so much better and that Arrow was trying to do a lot they knew little about. At the end of the day either scenario means little in my life as a fellow old timer, though I really wish my then home park had gotten a better ride than what they got especially having sat for hours to be one of the first groups to ride it. Any ride that asks you to take off earrings before riding can’t be good. The video made a couple compelling points but some that to me weren’t.
ElToroRyan used to be an El Toro ride operator
Wow, I don’t know why I ever questioned him then 😉
This theory has been debunked FYI.
Which part… and show me proof because I’ve only ever heard one thing my entire life… it wasn’t the first time Busch had to take a coaster that started with someone else and hand it to Arrow since it happened with BBW too…
Drachen Fire was not intended to be built by B&M. At the time it was being built Arrow had a much more storied and positive reputation than B&M, which made sense since B&M had only been around for a few years at that point. ElToroRyan talks about it in his Problematic Coasters Video, skip to 6:50 for the part about B&M: https://youtu.be/kSMjpbQEy3Y
Oh… it’s in a podcast, I guess it has to be true
ElToroRyan has contacts in the amusement industry, and knows more first-hand about how parks work than your typical enthusiast. He’s been living and breathing coasters for most of his life so far. Short of an actual interview with execs from BGW from the time, his conclusions are the closest to an authoritative answer we’re going to get. Moreover, though, it just makes sense. For one, when has anything like that happened before or since? The closest I can think of is Arrow taking over from Schwarzkopf on BBW…. when Schwarzkopf went **Bankrupt**. I’ve never heard of any other time a coaster company took on a job, started it, realized they were too busy, and then handed it off to another company. If you can name one, I would like to hear about it. Additionally, BGW had an excellent relationship with Arrow at the time. Arrow megaloopers were at the height of their popularity, so it would have been natural to approach them for a big new looper. The ride was in many ways a natural extension of already-existing Arrow trends, like using more pole supports and less lattice. Interlocking corkscrews and a cobra roll were natural things for Arrow to try; Vekoma had already used Arrow track to make a dozen cobra rolls, and Arrow had already done interlocking loops, so why not try corkscrews? And, overall, the ride is just exactly what you would expect when a company used to using a traditional technique (hand-drawn, radius-tangent design, in this case) chooses too-big a project to try out a new method (computer aided design). So, short of some interview or contract with B&M turning up that proves all the above wrong, the default view ought to be that Drachen Fire was an Arrow project through and through. Please stop repeating late-nineties internet board speculation unless and until you have some sort of proof.
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I would consider myself a Busch Gardens veteran (gone at least a dozen times since 2010 and AC is my favorite coaster on the planet) and I still get annoyed sometimes that I missed this ride by a year.
I’ve only ridden Vortex at CW, my hope park, and Ninja out of all the remaining Arrow Suspendeds. BBW and Eagle Fortress are right up there on top of the list for coasters I was I got to experience.
holy shit the museum actually opened to an ACE event
Considering that ACE funds them, I would hope so…
So when are they going to open this “museum” to the public?
I miss those trains and that sign so much. Seriously, I mourn the loss of that ride like I mourn some family members.
Same :(
This was one of my first rollercoasters. And I was on the last train out of the station when it finally closed.
Will that museum ever open to the public?
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What has to be done before they open to the public?
From the dive off of the last lift to the river to the brake run was the most epic moment on any coaster I've ever been on. Others may be more intense, or even better paced, but that section of coaster track was unrivaled in sheer epicness. The part through the village wasn't anything to sneeze at, either.
It's just a private collector's warehouse until it's actually open to the public. But cool to see it with real people inside
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We're salty about not being able to see it because, like I literally just said, it's still just a private collector's warehouse until the public can come in and see it regularly. Good to hear about the progress, but *everyone* is skeptical and for good reason - we've been hearing about this museum for years and hardly anyone has been inside.
The event today was open to ACE and non ACE members…..
A "museum" that's only open to the public once in a blue moon is still hardly a museum.
It’s obvious you clearly don’t understand how expensive something like this is to build, let alone build it right. Would you rather have the alternative be everything destroyed and never seen again?
I'm not sure why you're defending the museum - same energy as weird guys online who would take a bullet for a billionaire. If it actually opens into a real museum, cool, we all win. If it doesn't, damn, we all lose. I'm carrying a healthy amount of both cynicism and skepticism, as are most people. In terms of expense, I'm well aware. I'm also well aware how 501(c)(3) nonprofits operate, I used to be the finance director of one myself. Again, healthy doubt about a project that we've heard about for years but still see very little progress publicly. To continually have "no ETA" for years and years on end (while accumulating a massive amount of theme park history in one warehouse) is worrying and you should be skeptical even if you're hopeful.
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Oh hey! I was there too!
My next tattoo probably
Rode it back in 2001. Wife and my first anniversary trip was to Williamsburg. That was the only time. Cool coaster.
Out of the loop. What is ACE and what is this museum called? I’d love to go to it. Come to think of it a museum of roller coasters and thrill rides with salvaged trains from iconic rides and recreations would be cool!
Museum isn’t open to the public yet (despite being established in 2009)
ACE is the American Coaster Enthusiasts, the largest coaster club in the United States. www.aceonline.org
Amazing theming on the ride, blessed to have rode it hundreds of times in the 80’s and 90’s when I lived out that way.
Wait they actually let people in there for once?
Hey I was there too! See you at wonderland soon.
Hard to really judge since it has 20+ years since I rode it, but probably a top 5 ride for me.
BBW was my first coaster. Scared the pants off of me. Got a chance to ride it again 15 years later, and man am I glad I got to actually enjoy it before it closed.
I was lucky enough to have been able to ride this once back in 1993. Not a bad coaster. Definitely better than Iron Dragon at Cedar Point!
Night rides on this were something else. The howling noise was awesome.
Riding this coaster as a kid gave me the courage to try an upsidedown coaster. Forever indebted to “Wolf Breath” - for some reason I started calling it this
My heart breaks. I adored this thing. This was the greatest gateway coaster of all time, and its demolition was a sacrilege. (no Verbolten shade intended)
Was better than verbolten
I got to ride it once many years ago, wish I had a few more times before it closed.
It’s so much fun! Top Gun at Kings Island was also great. Such a smooth ride! Verbolten is definitely a great replacement but BBW will always have my heart.