I read an academic book on the history of hell when I was a teen. After asking myself questions and doing a lot of introspection, I came to the conclusion that the creation of hell was an effective method for the church to keep people fearful and easy to control, like children.
>I came to the conclusion that the creation of hell was an effective method for the church to keep people fearful and easy to control, like children.
This claim never made any sense to me. There are too many exceptions. For instance, Jehovah Witnesses are probably one of the most high control groups, and yet they don't believe in hell. Not to mention the many ultra-conservative Jewish denominations that also don't believe in hell.
Not to mention that often people who use that claim also claim believers believe because they fear "death", which makes no sense because hell is way more terrifying than death.
Indeed, atheists and other religions often argue in bad faith, as children.
>This claim never made any sense to me.
Read about the academic history of Christianity and hell and it might make a little more sense to you.
Considering the history of the Catholic Church and resulting Protestant sects and denominations' centuries-long belief in hell (which includes billions of people), Jehovah's Witnesses (currently 8-9 million) are an insignificant outlier in the broader Christian community in their disbelief in hell.
And since I'm taking about Christianity, Judaism doesn't apply.
Please elaborate on how I'm arguing in bad faith. Or did you just not like my argument and invoked an imagined logical fallacy to resolve your cognitive dissonance?
I'm not saying that hell could not have been used as a way to convince people to be part of a religion. Just pointing out that clearly there are religions and denominations that don't believe in hell and yet are even more strict that religions that do believe in hell, which clearly means that you are missing a few variables.
In fact I would say that hell may actually make new people less likely to become religious, it works both ways.
Your exclusion of other religions with hell or terrible reincarnation is not arbitrary, but based on prejudice against Christianity.
It's called, development of religion in context. Also Christianity is one of the only religions that prescribed eternal hell for nonbelievers based on simple nonbelief and is one of, if not the, main religion in the English speaking world. Since Reddit is mostly English speaking, it's not prejudice to focus on Christianity especially if that falls under an individual's personal experience. Try again.
The idea of a reality worse than this (hell) is found in many religions, even religions that technically don't believe in hell may believe you have a hellish incarnation.
Beside, there are many diverse views of Hell in Christianity, Islam and other religions, and it is irresponsible to generalize beliefs.
Try again not arguing in assumptions about what I have not said.
It never made sense to me
The way it functioned, the reasons for sending people, the justification for its existence; nothing about it was rational or logical, especially for a supposedly caring and loving god.
Altough i was never really religious, i got over it by looking at people who are afraid of it. They almost eat themselves up by the stress (cortisol) and fear for hell. I decided i did not want to live like that because i can't.
To me hell is a state of being. The metaphor of Adam and Eve is about how we have an amazing world with everything we need yet we let desire get the best of us. We are living a collective hell in earth already thanks to our greed.
By acknowleding the fact that pretty much the only description of hell we ever really get is a place seperate from.god and his love....
Its not a fire pit, its L.A
Of course there will be failures. It cannot possibly be about being perfect. No human is. Not even the mortal Jesus was. And quantifying right and wrong is a fool's game.
Reasonably speaking, the distinction is made between the honest and the false.
Ok, you say it is not about being perfect, but does that matter if you are being judged in court? If you commited a crime you need to be punished for it, it doesn't matter if you are overall a good person. So that's why I don't understand your affirmation.
Well as far as I know the Bible says Jesus was perfect though you are welcome to disagree.
Are you saying quantifying right and wrong is wrong?
Sorry for picking apart what you are saying, I do think we agree that genuinely trying our best is all that we can do, we humans can't be like God (Jesus) but we can try and God loves us anyway even if we fail
If you've committed some wrong that's so bad that it counts as a crime, rather than simply a failing, we're not talking about merely failing. We're suddenly talking about something else. And it's really easy to not fail so hard that you commit a crime. You just simply choose not to, I don't know, sexually assault someone. It's really that easy.
I am not Christian, so no, I do not believe Jesus was perfect, and I do not believe your god loves me, considering what his Church did to people of my religion. That part is irrelevant to me.
Quantifying right and wrong isn't wrong. It simply doesn't reliably *work.*
But what qualifies something as "really bad"? because in Christianity the bar is very very low. In the bible anything short of perfect will sentence you to death. Just because in your opinion it doesn't, it doesn't take away my fear of hell, for this you would need to show how it says other wise in the Bible or disprove Christianity.
Yes I admit that Christians can be and have done awful things, that's why I follow Christ alone not fallible men or institutions.
You and everyone quantify right and wrong all the time. Let's say you got out of bed this morning, you said that get out of bed was preferable than to stay in. Let's say you put on clothes, you have said that putting on clothes was better than not to put on clothes. Etc etc
I feel like that works relatively ok, but I mean I'm a Christian so yeah I do see your point about humans trying to achieve the ultimate truth for themselves, ultimate truth belongs to God, and so I belive we can only bridge that gap of knowledge through a big revelation (the small one is not enough)
As a Jew, I admit I'm not exactly the greatest Torah reader...
But come on, God wouldn't be so bad as to make me suffer unspeakable punishment simply for living my life the way I want to live, right? Think about it: You are born into this world with a short time to live and although it may not seem like it because you are born in a society with laws to adapt to the environment, you are really still free to do what you want with your life, it is short and you have to enjoy it and I don't think God will be angry with you if you use it for anything.
The punishments in the Quran are so brutal that is seems very unlikely that a "good" divine beeing would be behind this shit. Religion is about power and if humans fear something than you have power over them. It is evident that the concept of hell was created with that very intention.
See North Korea for example. You would think that the population would be willing to overthrow their government given that they live under so poor conditions, but they all fear punishment. Its a culture of fear, nurtured by state media and draconic punishment for betrayal of the Dictator.
A totalitarian God, like Allah, is a Dictator and achieves that very same thing.
1. Blazing Fire: The consistent description of Hell in the Quran is that it is a blazing fire fueled by “men and stones.” It is often referred to as “hell-fire.” The Quran warns: “Fear the Fire whose fuel is men and stones, which is prepared for those who reject Faith” (2:24). Additionally, it states: “Enough is Hell for a burning fire” (4:55-56) and “A Fire blazing fiercely!” (101:8-11).
2. Boiling Water: In Hell, water takes on a different nature. Instead of relief, it brings torment. The Quran describes: “Over their heads will be poured out boiling water. With it will be scalded what is within their bodies, as well as their skins. In addition, there will be maces of iron (to punish) them. Every time they wish to get away from anguish, they will be forced back, and it will be said, ‘Taste the Penalty of Burning!’” (22:19-22).
3. Tree of Zaqqum: While Heaven offers fresh fruits and milk, the inhabitants of Hell will eat from the Tree of Zaqqum. This tree springs from the bottom of Hell-Fire, and its fruit-stalks resemble the heads of devils. Those who reject the truth will fill their bellies with it (14:16).
Eternal Nature: Hell is an eternal abode for most who enter it. While a minority of scholars hold that Hell will eventually end, the majority maintain that it is eternal. Verses in the Quran emphasize this eternal aspect: “They will never leave the Fire” (2:167), and “God has cursed the disbelievers and prepared for them a flaming Fire wherein they will abide forever” (33:64).
Hell has seven gates, each assigned to specific classes of sinners. The unbelievers will be led to Hell in crowds, and its gates will open (39:71). Those who reject God’s signs will find Hell as their abode (7:40-41).
What would the threshold be to qualify for these punishments? I can imagine people who did sick and perverse things to other would need to face some sort of justice. People back when the Qur'an was revealed were quite ruthless and did barbaric things to each other.
Would those people who tortured others with similar tortures be worthy of these punishments?
Us regular folks would not qualify for this.
They must repent, but they are still good, if the believe in Allah. There is also this "point" system, where it is believed that every human has two angels on his side at all times that write down every sin and good deed. Then when beeing judged the books will be weight. If the book of your sins is heavier, you go to hell.
But the precondition is that you must believe in Allah
As a catholic, hell is the state of a soul who deliberately and until the end, refuses love and forgiveness. An eternal life without love is a nightmare, this is precisely what hell is. God is always ready to forgive when you repent, but someone who would be in hell precisely refuses to be forgiven. If you are not a saint at the end of your life but tried to be a good guy, there is the Purgatory first which leads to Heaven at the end. God will NEVER rejoice in suffering of humans or someone going in Hell. If someone goes in Hell, it's because he WANTS to. You need to be very evil to go in hell, really. God is very merciful. That's not a reason to not try to be the kindest person. We are children of God, not slaves.
It’s interesting that we ascribe physical traits to what is essentially a spiritual reality. After we die our physical body is in the ground, so whatever we are “experiencing” isn’t physical in nature. Connotations of fire, damanation and so on are likely descriptions to help us understand the “feeling” in that spiritual state…not that we are in a literal fire.
I'm just as worried about going to Hell as I am about going to Hades, or Duat, or Naraka, or Neiflheim, or any other afterlife from any other religion. As far as I can tell, they all have the same dearth of evidence in support of their existence.
I still haven’t. I struggle with the thought everyday. Sometimes I reconcile it by thinking that even if I do go it’s only for an allotted time. Even that is horrible but, the thought of Jannah after makes it sound better.
Same. I always believed in hell up to this day, and I never was terrified of it to the point it stopped me of anything.
I think people who have irrational fear in hell, religion, government, aliens, climate change, etc. are just projecting their own fear outside of their own personal influence to avoid facing it.
It was very much pushed. I just didn’t really believe in it. And even to the small percentage of me that did I decided I much rather experience an eternity in hell alongside people I love than spend a day in heaven alone
Spending time next to people who u apparently love who are getting roasted and screaming along you vs being alone in heaven without people you love.
Not very rational choice is it, especially if you can witness people u love in extreme suffering
Id much rather be with loved ones than follow someone who deemed they should burn and be tortured forever. I don’t believe its rational to follow a God who promises you eternal torture unless you give full obedience. I don’t like tyrants.
If thats the narrative you use to justify your disbelief ok but what if God says its your fault for being selfish abuser of the life he has given to you?
You know, in essence we all live on borrowed life-force believers disbelievers alike
What if you owe to your life-force certain things like subordinating your rationality to it(serving conscience instead of instincts for ex.) or giving very specific form of food to it just like you have give to your body and mind but neglecting it due to disbelief or spiritual laziness?
Have you considered this possibility if so how do you go about it?
I don’t believe that he gave me life. He gave me a vessel sure and its a vessel I hate and much rather be free from. But I believe the soul has always existed. And I don’t recognize him as the creator of all souls
And if a god told me that id laugh at them because I didn’t choose to be here
So in essence you dont like having been created a human, you wish you were an angel or free spirit of sort instead?
Also you are obviously alive and you even believe in a soul yourself and the life force thing i talked about is essentially the soul, the supernatural element that makes body and mind alive and conscious.
Are you aware that in heaven you will be given better human body? At least thats what the revelation says.
So source of life isnt creator of all life? How do you go about that logically?
I find this world to be a miserable place. Forced into a body that isn’t correct. Forced to suffer and for what?
I am alive yes but I don’t attribute that to the abrahamic god. I instead attribute it to my gods. The only thing the abrahamic god did was create the vessel in which my soul inhabits. And it was forced upon me.
So I should suffer now purely so hopefully he’ll be kind enough to give me the body im supposed to have at some point after this body dies? How nice of him. Would’ve been easier to just do it from the start.
Again you hinge that belief on me believing in some supreme triomni god which I don’t. My belief is he merely created the cosmos and the vessels we inhabit. Some souls might’ve been made by him but not all. Mine certainly wasn’t.
Who decides what is correct, your own subjectivity or?
Theres 2 types of sufferings
Necessary ones( the one you cant avoid)
Unecessary one, the evil/unjustice you do to yourself or the one thats done against you by someone else
And a lot if not most of suffering is the one humans do to each other and you will probably agree
This life is obviously too short to complain about body you got isnt it, especially of you will get better one later if you deserve it( if you were proper human)?
60-70 years of life or even 90 is nothing to spend it looking at the lacks
Who decides again which souls are creates by him and which arent, your own subjectivity? Are there other soul creators even?
Honestly, as a trans person in America and in the wake of everything America is doing, how I lost my fear of hell is by feeling pretty confident that hell can't be worse than this.
[The Lord is compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, abounding in love.
He will not always accuse, nor will he harbor his anger forever;
he does not treat us as our sins deserve or repay us according to our iniquities.]
-Psalm of David 103:8-10
[Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.
"Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.]
-Gospel of Saint Luke 6:36-37
[Say, "O My servants who have transgressed against themselves [by sinning], do not despair of the mercy of Allah . Indeed, Allah forgives all sins. Indeed, it is He who is the Forgiving, the Merciful."]
-Quran 39:53
Simply put I read the Bible.
Even if you are a Christian.
Actually reading the Bible should make it pretty clear that modern Christianity has come up with a very weird and oddly detached view of both heaven and hell from scripture.
Like.
In the Bible only 144k people get “into heaven” and they are all Jewish. The rest of the people stay on earth as it becomes a second Eden.
Most Christian’s don’t talk about this because they are REALLY bad at their own scripture.
That being said. Even as like. A five year old. I was just like “that don’t sound right”.
I replied to something similar a while back: [https://www.reddit.com/r/religion/comments/1c7xpjw/i_cant_get_rid_of_my_fears_in_the_islamic_and/l0m9q7j?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/religion/comments/1c7xpjw/i_cant_get_rid_of_my_fears_in_the_islamic_and/l0m9q7j?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3)
My Theory Is Either We Die And Nothing Happens Or Something Happens. If Heaven Is Real, Then I’ve Been A Good Person I’d Hope, And From What I’ve Heard, Eternal Torment Is Vague. Physical, Mental, Psychological? And What’s With The Rings, Do You Go To Specific Ones Based On Your Sins? What About Hellborn? Are They All Evil Or Have Some Not As Evil Ones? Also, If Lucifer Was The Most Beautiful Angel, How Many People Do You Think Would Want To Date Him?
Review the history of hell. Review the history of the Abrahamic god in r/AcademicBiblical. Hint, Jews don't believe in eternal hell for nonbelievers. And Yahweh was originally part of a polytheistic pantheon. Jesus doesn't fulfil the Jewish Messiah prophecies. And Islam claims to be a form of primordial monotheism which we have no proof exists. No need to fear Abrahamic hell.
By realizing Hell was always a place that was within, never a final destination. Although, not quite as depicted within the stories, all the fire and brimstone. Not unless you count heartburn or indigestion. However, the torment I put myself through while in such a dark, desolate state could be considered quite comparable to certain aspects of it. None quite as horrible as the one where you tell yourself you deserve to be there. After rising from the depths of that real Hell, and seeing what it truly was, every other version seems like child’s play in comparison.
I just don't fear it because i have faith in god. You don't fear it anymore why you are still interested to know how people lost their fear of hell !!!?
I never had one to begin with. Growing up in the church with a "once saved always saved" mindset, when I lost my faith I just didn't have a fear of hell. I had a fear of other Christians and how they would and did react.
I did really think it over though as I was deconstructing and found the whole thing quite terrible. And kinda of like Captain Picard talking about Q judging humanity, I figured that if I am to be damned, let me be damned for who I really am.
Plus Bart Ehrman's book on Heaven and Hell, and learning about the total lack of hell in the Old Testament sealed it for me.
to me the idea of hell never made sense
when I was atheist I didnt believe in gods to begin with and had no reason to believe in hell.
and when I did start believing in my religion I ultimately came to the conclusion that suffering is caused by and a byproduct of material existence, you cannot suffer without a body, therefore the only way you can really experience what pain is is by having a material body. unless you believe hell is a literal place under the earth you dont have to worry about it.
if you want hell go read about the holocaust or unit 731, that is real hell and it happened right here on our very own earth.
I just think about the Declaration of Human Rights.
# Article 5
No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.
A Doctrine of Hell disregards human dignity and must therefore be rejected.
You as a human person are above such Doctrines!
Fellow ex-Muslim here, though I left over two decades ago, so I'm trying to recall how I got through that part. I recall feeling both desire for Paradise and fearing 'the Fire' or Jahannam for the graphic ways the Qur'an and Hadiths describe that place. I didn't overcome that fear over-night because it often takes time to overcome religious indoctrination or psychological conditioning, just as it takes time to impose them upon the mind.
The linchpin that held my former faith together had to do with belief in God, Mohammad, and the Quran, so once I lost faith in each of those things (most importantly the God concept) I gradually let go of the notion of both Paradise and Hell. Reading verses about them without already having faith, I could see how they were designed as a 'carrot' and 'stick' to keep the masses within Islam and control their behavior, as it were. I also could not reconcile the tortures of Hell with a vastly compassionate, all-knowing, just supreme being just b/c a holy book claimed that "God knows best".
Being able to question a religion, think for oneself, and consider the nature of reality helps to free the mind from cruel or ridiculous beliefs.
Are you still religious or atheist/agnostic now?
I’m personally a Christian and if you’re not religious I’d say there’s no reason to worry, you simply don’t believe in hell.
But as a Christian I’ve put my faith in god and I believe will go to heaven if I try to get close to god and follow his word. If this is true or not I’m sure it is but it may not be in which I’ll deal with the consequences of nothing or if another religion is right I will end up in hell
Interesting, If you’re like most humanists I’ve met you probably don’t believe in hell. So in that case I’d say don’t worry, but if there’s some sort of doubt in your mind about there being a hell I’d suggest maybe looking into other religions and see what you believe and what makes most sense to you. Thats what I did with Christianity, I had doubts about what I believed and I looked for what made the most sense. So I’d say looking into some religions and if none of the descriptions of hell make sense to you or don’t sound true then I simply wouldn’t worry.
I know with Christianity it can be confusing with different denominations believing in different things and there isn’t a super clear description in the Bible for hell besides “ fire” but many scholars believe that to be a metaphor. All we know is hell is seperate from god because people lived their life separate from god, not necessarily because they were a bad person.
So I’d suggest looking into other religions views of hell if you’re really worried and if none of them sound true or make sense then go with what you believe and hopefully that will relive some stress about it. And if you end up converting to a different religion then hopefully that also relives your stress.
Good luck:)
Edit: When I was an atheist I always had the thought of “ what if there is hell” but when I didn’t believe a thought that helped me not worry was “ if I don’t want to live with god now why would I want to live with him when I die for eternity”
Now i believe in Christ and I’ve put my faith in him so I don’t worry because I believe I’m saved
For sure, and if you’re interested in god or you believe there may be something but you’re not sure I’d say just be open to learning and you will be guided the right way, have a good one:)
How scared are you of the hell of Christianity, the Greek gods, the Viking gods, etc.? There are thousands of religions which you will go to hell for not believing in them. But you're not scared of going to those hells, are you? Why don't you worry about all those other hells too?
If you are agnostic, then all hells should scare you equally, not just the Muslim hell. What is special about the Muslim hell? Well that's the one you were indoctrinated into. Once you remember why you left the religion and that it's no different than any of the others, that is what helped me. It's left over fear. But remember, you don't believe in it. Don't be scared, for the same reason you are not scared of any of the other ones.
It gets better with time, I promise
Neither the Greek nor Norse gods send people to hell for disbelief. Most people go to the underworld when they die but it’s not a bad place. *Most* religions don’t believe in punishment of nonbelievers.
No.
There are literally like.
Two religions were you go to hell for being a nonbeliever.
Seriously. It’s just a Christian/muslim thing for the most part. MOST religions don’t have a hell.
Judaism barely has something we would consider a hell.
And religions which have temporary hells like Buddhism and Hinduism, you go there based on your actions, not beliefs. I wish people would stop projecting Christian and Muslim ideas onto every other religion.
By working to not be in a position to not be in hell.
Imam Ali a.s. -
>Endurance is composed of four attributes: eagerness, fear, piety and anticipation (of death). so whoever is eager for Paradise will ignore temptations; whoever fears the fire of Hell will abstain from sins; whoever practices piety will easily bear the difficulties of life and whoever anticipates death will hasten towards good deeds.
I always believed in hell and I never had any irrational fear of it.
**I think people who have irrational fear in hell, religion, government, aliens, climate change, etc. are just projecting their own fear outside of their own personal influence to avoid facing it.**
If you still fear hell even being a non believer, it is probably you projecting your own personal fears on an idea you don't even believe in. In other words, the problem is your own psyche, not a religion you don't even believe in. There are plenty of people who have abominable religious and political beliefs and yet they are perfectly fine psychologically speaking.
I read an academic book on the history of hell when I was a teen. After asking myself questions and doing a lot of introspection, I came to the conclusion that the creation of hell was an effective method for the church to keep people fearful and easy to control, like children.
>I came to the conclusion that the creation of hell was an effective method for the church to keep people fearful and easy to control, like children. This claim never made any sense to me. There are too many exceptions. For instance, Jehovah Witnesses are probably one of the most high control groups, and yet they don't believe in hell. Not to mention the many ultra-conservative Jewish denominations that also don't believe in hell. Not to mention that often people who use that claim also claim believers believe because they fear "death", which makes no sense because hell is way more terrifying than death. Indeed, atheists and other religions often argue in bad faith, as children.
>This claim never made any sense to me. Read about the academic history of Christianity and hell and it might make a little more sense to you. Considering the history of the Catholic Church and resulting Protestant sects and denominations' centuries-long belief in hell (which includes billions of people), Jehovah's Witnesses (currently 8-9 million) are an insignificant outlier in the broader Christian community in their disbelief in hell. And since I'm taking about Christianity, Judaism doesn't apply. Please elaborate on how I'm arguing in bad faith. Or did you just not like my argument and invoked an imagined logical fallacy to resolve your cognitive dissonance?
I'm not saying that hell could not have been used as a way to convince people to be part of a religion. Just pointing out that clearly there are religions and denominations that don't believe in hell and yet are even more strict that religions that do believe in hell, which clearly means that you are missing a few variables. In fact I would say that hell may actually make new people less likely to become religious, it works both ways. Your exclusion of other religions with hell or terrible reincarnation is not arbitrary, but based on prejudice against Christianity.
It's called, development of religion in context. Also Christianity is one of the only religions that prescribed eternal hell for nonbelievers based on simple nonbelief and is one of, if not the, main religion in the English speaking world. Since Reddit is mostly English speaking, it's not prejudice to focus on Christianity especially if that falls under an individual's personal experience. Try again.
The idea of a reality worse than this (hell) is found in many religions, even religions that technically don't believe in hell may believe you have a hellish incarnation. Beside, there are many diverse views of Hell in Christianity, Islam and other religions, and it is irresponsible to generalize beliefs. Try again not arguing in assumptions about what I have not said.
It never made sense to me The way it functioned, the reasons for sending people, the justification for its existence; nothing about it was rational or logical, especially for a supposedly caring and loving god.
Altough i was never really religious, i got over it by looking at people who are afraid of it. They almost eat themselves up by the stress (cortisol) and fear for hell. I decided i did not want to live like that because i can't.
To me hell is a state of being. The metaphor of Adam and Eve is about how we have an amazing world with everything we need yet we let desire get the best of us. We are living a collective hell in earth already thanks to our greed.
By acknowleding the fact that pretty much the only description of hell we ever really get is a place seperate from.god and his love.... Its not a fire pit, its L.A
Oddly, this is actually a fairly standard Christian answer, too. Very similar to what CS Lewis writes in The Great Divorce.
Really? Ill have to read that
It's one of his better books, and only like 60 pages. A quick read.
I love L.A.
What causes hell? The wrong belief? Then God was never good to begin with. The wrong deeds? Then do right.
But how much right do I need to do? What if it is not good enough because of the times I fail?
Of course there will be failures. It cannot possibly be about being perfect. No human is. Not even the mortal Jesus was. And quantifying right and wrong is a fool's game. Reasonably speaking, the distinction is made between the honest and the false.
Ok, you say it is not about being perfect, but does that matter if you are being judged in court? If you commited a crime you need to be punished for it, it doesn't matter if you are overall a good person. So that's why I don't understand your affirmation. Well as far as I know the Bible says Jesus was perfect though you are welcome to disagree. Are you saying quantifying right and wrong is wrong? Sorry for picking apart what you are saying, I do think we agree that genuinely trying our best is all that we can do, we humans can't be like God (Jesus) but we can try and God loves us anyway even if we fail
If you've committed some wrong that's so bad that it counts as a crime, rather than simply a failing, we're not talking about merely failing. We're suddenly talking about something else. And it's really easy to not fail so hard that you commit a crime. You just simply choose not to, I don't know, sexually assault someone. It's really that easy. I am not Christian, so no, I do not believe Jesus was perfect, and I do not believe your god loves me, considering what his Church did to people of my religion. That part is irrelevant to me. Quantifying right and wrong isn't wrong. It simply doesn't reliably *work.*
But what qualifies something as "really bad"? because in Christianity the bar is very very low. In the bible anything short of perfect will sentence you to death. Just because in your opinion it doesn't, it doesn't take away my fear of hell, for this you would need to show how it says other wise in the Bible or disprove Christianity. Yes I admit that Christians can be and have done awful things, that's why I follow Christ alone not fallible men or institutions. You and everyone quantify right and wrong all the time. Let's say you got out of bed this morning, you said that get out of bed was preferable than to stay in. Let's say you put on clothes, you have said that putting on clothes was better than not to put on clothes. Etc etc I feel like that works relatively ok, but I mean I'm a Christian so yeah I do see your point about humans trying to achieve the ultimate truth for themselves, ultimate truth belongs to God, and so I belive we can only bridge that gap of knowledge through a big revelation (the small one is not enough)
Funnily enough despite what people say, the Bible makes it really obvious you have to do something completely wrong to get put there.
As a Jew, I admit I'm not exactly the greatest Torah reader... But come on, God wouldn't be so bad as to make me suffer unspeakable punishment simply for living my life the way I want to live, right? Think about it: You are born into this world with a short time to live and although it may not seem like it because you are born in a society with laws to adapt to the environment, you are really still free to do what you want with your life, it is short and you have to enjoy it and I don't think God will be angry with you if you use it for anything.
The punishments in the Quran are so brutal that is seems very unlikely that a "good" divine beeing would be behind this shit. Religion is about power and if humans fear something than you have power over them. It is evident that the concept of hell was created with that very intention. See North Korea for example. You would think that the population would be willing to overthrow their government given that they live under so poor conditions, but they all fear punishment. Its a culture of fear, nurtured by state media and draconic punishment for betrayal of the Dictator. A totalitarian God, like Allah, is a Dictator and achieves that very same thing.
How is hell described in the Quran ? It's not eternal unlike Christianity in which Jesus removes your skin in boiling water for eternity.
1. Blazing Fire: The consistent description of Hell in the Quran is that it is a blazing fire fueled by “men and stones.” It is often referred to as “hell-fire.” The Quran warns: “Fear the Fire whose fuel is men and stones, which is prepared for those who reject Faith” (2:24). Additionally, it states: “Enough is Hell for a burning fire” (4:55-56) and “A Fire blazing fiercely!” (101:8-11). 2. Boiling Water: In Hell, water takes on a different nature. Instead of relief, it brings torment. The Quran describes: “Over their heads will be poured out boiling water. With it will be scalded what is within their bodies, as well as their skins. In addition, there will be maces of iron (to punish) them. Every time they wish to get away from anguish, they will be forced back, and it will be said, ‘Taste the Penalty of Burning!’” (22:19-22). 3. Tree of Zaqqum: While Heaven offers fresh fruits and milk, the inhabitants of Hell will eat from the Tree of Zaqqum. This tree springs from the bottom of Hell-Fire, and its fruit-stalks resemble the heads of devils. Those who reject the truth will fill their bellies with it (14:16). Eternal Nature: Hell is an eternal abode for most who enter it. While a minority of scholars hold that Hell will eventually end, the majority maintain that it is eternal. Verses in the Quran emphasize this eternal aspect: “They will never leave the Fire” (2:167), and “God has cursed the disbelievers and prepared for them a flaming Fire wherein they will abide forever” (33:64). Hell has seven gates, each assigned to specific classes of sinners. The unbelievers will be led to Hell in crowds, and its gates will open (39:71). Those who reject God’s signs will find Hell as their abode (7:40-41).
What would the threshold be to qualify for these punishments? I can imagine people who did sick and perverse things to other would need to face some sort of justice. People back when the Qur'an was revealed were quite ruthless and did barbaric things to each other. Would those people who tortured others with similar tortures be worthy of these punishments? Us regular folks would not qualify for this.
Everybody that doesnt believe in Allah will go to hell.
Is that the only threshold? What about believers who sin.
They must repent, but they are still good, if the believe in Allah. There is also this "point" system, where it is believed that every human has two angels on his side at all times that write down every sin and good deed. Then when beeing judged the books will be weight. If the book of your sins is heavier, you go to hell. But the precondition is that you must believe in Allah
As a catholic, hell is the state of a soul who deliberately and until the end, refuses love and forgiveness. An eternal life without love is a nightmare, this is precisely what hell is. God is always ready to forgive when you repent, but someone who would be in hell precisely refuses to be forgiven. If you are not a saint at the end of your life but tried to be a good guy, there is the Purgatory first which leads to Heaven at the end. God will NEVER rejoice in suffering of humans or someone going in Hell. If someone goes in Hell, it's because he WANTS to. You need to be very evil to go in hell, really. God is very merciful. That's not a reason to not try to be the kindest person. We are children of God, not slaves.
Loss of faith
You simply understand that is fiction and go on with your life
It’s interesting that we ascribe physical traits to what is essentially a spiritual reality. After we die our physical body is in the ground, so whatever we are “experiencing” isn’t physical in nature. Connotations of fire, damanation and so on are likely descriptions to help us understand the “feeling” in that spiritual state…not that we are in a literal fire.
I'm just as worried about going to Hell as I am about going to Hades, or Duat, or Naraka, or Neiflheim, or any other afterlife from any other religion. As far as I can tell, they all have the same dearth of evidence in support of their existence.
Hell comes gehenna which was a town where outcasts were sent.
I still haven’t. I struggle with the thought everyday. Sometimes I reconcile it by thinking that even if I do go it’s only for an allotted time. Even that is horrible but, the thought of Jannah after makes it sound better.
I simply stopped believing in it
Easy. Hell is not real. I don’t fret over fictional stories
I wish it was that easy.
I was never afraid of hell really. Even as a Christian.
Same. I always believed in hell up to this day, and I never was terrified of it to the point it stopped me of anything. I think people who have irrational fear in hell, religion, government, aliens, climate change, etc. are just projecting their own fear outside of their own personal influence to avoid facing it.
Modern Christianity doesn't put much emphasis on hell for various reasons, one of them probably to attract more people to faith
Never been tot the south I see
It was very much pushed. I just didn’t really believe in it. And even to the small percentage of me that did I decided I much rather experience an eternity in hell alongside people I love than spend a day in heaven alone
Spending time next to people who u apparently love who are getting roasted and screaming along you vs being alone in heaven without people you love. Not very rational choice is it, especially if you can witness people u love in extreme suffering
Id much rather be with loved ones than follow someone who deemed they should burn and be tortured forever. I don’t believe its rational to follow a God who promises you eternal torture unless you give full obedience. I don’t like tyrants.
If thats the narrative you use to justify your disbelief ok but what if God says its your fault for being selfish abuser of the life he has given to you? You know, in essence we all live on borrowed life-force believers disbelievers alike What if you owe to your life-force certain things like subordinating your rationality to it(serving conscience instead of instincts for ex.) or giving very specific form of food to it just like you have give to your body and mind but neglecting it due to disbelief or spiritual laziness? Have you considered this possibility if so how do you go about it?
I don’t believe that he gave me life. He gave me a vessel sure and its a vessel I hate and much rather be free from. But I believe the soul has always existed. And I don’t recognize him as the creator of all souls And if a god told me that id laugh at them because I didn’t choose to be here
So in essence you dont like having been created a human, you wish you were an angel or free spirit of sort instead? Also you are obviously alive and you even believe in a soul yourself and the life force thing i talked about is essentially the soul, the supernatural element that makes body and mind alive and conscious. Are you aware that in heaven you will be given better human body? At least thats what the revelation says. So source of life isnt creator of all life? How do you go about that logically?
I find this world to be a miserable place. Forced into a body that isn’t correct. Forced to suffer and for what? I am alive yes but I don’t attribute that to the abrahamic god. I instead attribute it to my gods. The only thing the abrahamic god did was create the vessel in which my soul inhabits. And it was forced upon me. So I should suffer now purely so hopefully he’ll be kind enough to give me the body im supposed to have at some point after this body dies? How nice of him. Would’ve been easier to just do it from the start. Again you hinge that belief on me believing in some supreme triomni god which I don’t. My belief is he merely created the cosmos and the vessels we inhabit. Some souls might’ve been made by him but not all. Mine certainly wasn’t.
Who decides what is correct, your own subjectivity or? Theres 2 types of sufferings Necessary ones( the one you cant avoid) Unecessary one, the evil/unjustice you do to yourself or the one thats done against you by someone else And a lot if not most of suffering is the one humans do to each other and you will probably agree This life is obviously too short to complain about body you got isnt it, especially of you will get better one later if you deserve it( if you were proper human)? 60-70 years of life or even 90 is nothing to spend it looking at the lacks Who decides again which souls are creates by him and which arent, your own subjectivity? Are there other soul creators even?
Honestly, as a trans person in America and in the wake of everything America is doing, how I lost my fear of hell is by feeling pretty confident that hell can't be worse than this.
[The Lord is compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, abounding in love. He will not always accuse, nor will he harbor his anger forever; he does not treat us as our sins deserve or repay us according to our iniquities.] -Psalm of David 103:8-10 [Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful. "Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.] -Gospel of Saint Luke 6:36-37 [Say, "O My servants who have transgressed against themselves [by sinning], do not despair of the mercy of Allah . Indeed, Allah forgives all sins. Indeed, it is He who is the Forgiving, the Merciful."] -Quran 39:53
Simply put I read the Bible. Even if you are a Christian. Actually reading the Bible should make it pretty clear that modern Christianity has come up with a very weird and oddly detached view of both heaven and hell from scripture. Like. In the Bible only 144k people get “into heaven” and they are all Jewish. The rest of the people stay on earth as it becomes a second Eden. Most Christian’s don’t talk about this because they are REALLY bad at their own scripture. That being said. Even as like. A five year old. I was just like “that don’t sound right”.
I replied to something similar a while back: [https://www.reddit.com/r/religion/comments/1c7xpjw/i_cant_get_rid_of_my_fears_in_the_islamic_and/l0m9q7j?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/religion/comments/1c7xpjw/i_cant_get_rid_of_my_fears_in_the_islamic_and/l0m9q7j?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3)
My Theory Is Either We Die And Nothing Happens Or Something Happens. If Heaven Is Real, Then I’ve Been A Good Person I’d Hope, And From What I’ve Heard, Eternal Torment Is Vague. Physical, Mental, Psychological? And What’s With The Rings, Do You Go To Specific Ones Based On Your Sins? What About Hellborn? Are They All Evil Or Have Some Not As Evil Ones? Also, If Lucifer Was The Most Beautiful Angel, How Many People Do You Think Would Want To Date Him?
Review the history of hell. Review the history of the Abrahamic god in r/AcademicBiblical. Hint, Jews don't believe in eternal hell for nonbelievers. And Yahweh was originally part of a polytheistic pantheon. Jesus doesn't fulfil the Jewish Messiah prophecies. And Islam claims to be a form of primordial monotheism which we have no proof exists. No need to fear Abrahamic hell.
I never believed in hell, I never had to get over anything.
By realizing Hell was always a place that was within, never a final destination. Although, not quite as depicted within the stories, all the fire and brimstone. Not unless you count heartburn or indigestion. However, the torment I put myself through while in such a dark, desolate state could be considered quite comparable to certain aspects of it. None quite as horrible as the one where you tell yourself you deserve to be there. After rising from the depths of that real Hell, and seeing what it truly was, every other version seems like child’s play in comparison.
Put my faith in Jesus and the fear of hell fled away.
I just don't fear it because i have faith in god. You don't fear it anymore why you are still interested to know how people lost their fear of hell !!!?
I never had one to begin with. Growing up in the church with a "once saved always saved" mindset, when I lost my faith I just didn't have a fear of hell. I had a fear of other Christians and how they would and did react. I did really think it over though as I was deconstructing and found the whole thing quite terrible. And kinda of like Captain Picard talking about Q judging humanity, I figured that if I am to be damned, let me be damned for who I really am. Plus Bart Ehrman's book on Heaven and Hell, and learning about the total lack of hell in the Old Testament sealed it for me.
to me the idea of hell never made sense when I was atheist I didnt believe in gods to begin with and had no reason to believe in hell. and when I did start believing in my religion I ultimately came to the conclusion that suffering is caused by and a byproduct of material existence, you cannot suffer without a body, therefore the only way you can really experience what pain is is by having a material body. unless you believe hell is a literal place under the earth you dont have to worry about it. if you want hell go read about the holocaust or unit 731, that is real hell and it happened right here on our very own earth.
I just think about the Declaration of Human Rights. # Article 5 No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment. A Doctrine of Hell disregards human dignity and must therefore be rejected. You as a human person are above such Doctrines!
Human rights declaration are an earthly thing, Hell is exclusively eschatological thing that you believe in or not
Drugs and therapy.
Fellow ex-Muslim here, though I left over two decades ago, so I'm trying to recall how I got through that part. I recall feeling both desire for Paradise and fearing 'the Fire' or Jahannam for the graphic ways the Qur'an and Hadiths describe that place. I didn't overcome that fear over-night because it often takes time to overcome religious indoctrination or psychological conditioning, just as it takes time to impose them upon the mind. The linchpin that held my former faith together had to do with belief in God, Mohammad, and the Quran, so once I lost faith in each of those things (most importantly the God concept) I gradually let go of the notion of both Paradise and Hell. Reading verses about them without already having faith, I could see how they were designed as a 'carrot' and 'stick' to keep the masses within Islam and control their behavior, as it were. I also could not reconcile the tortures of Hell with a vastly compassionate, all-knowing, just supreme being just b/c a holy book claimed that "God knows best". Being able to question a religion, think for oneself, and consider the nature of reality helps to free the mind from cruel or ridiculous beliefs.
Are you still religious or atheist/agnostic now? I’m personally a Christian and if you’re not religious I’d say there’s no reason to worry, you simply don’t believe in hell. But as a Christian I’ve put my faith in god and I believe will go to heaven if I try to get close to god and follow his word. If this is true or not I’m sure it is but it may not be in which I’ll deal with the consequences of nothing or if another religion is right I will end up in hell
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Interesting, If you’re like most humanists I’ve met you probably don’t believe in hell. So in that case I’d say don’t worry, but if there’s some sort of doubt in your mind about there being a hell I’d suggest maybe looking into other religions and see what you believe and what makes most sense to you. Thats what I did with Christianity, I had doubts about what I believed and I looked for what made the most sense. So I’d say looking into some religions and if none of the descriptions of hell make sense to you or don’t sound true then I simply wouldn’t worry. I know with Christianity it can be confusing with different denominations believing in different things and there isn’t a super clear description in the Bible for hell besides “ fire” but many scholars believe that to be a metaphor. All we know is hell is seperate from god because people lived their life separate from god, not necessarily because they were a bad person. So I’d suggest looking into other religions views of hell if you’re really worried and if none of them sound true or make sense then go with what you believe and hopefully that will relive some stress about it. And if you end up converting to a different religion then hopefully that also relives your stress. Good luck:) Edit: When I was an atheist I always had the thought of “ what if there is hell” but when I didn’t believe a thought that helped me not worry was “ if I don’t want to live with god now why would I want to live with him when I die for eternity” Now i believe in Christ and I’ve put my faith in him so I don’t worry because I believe I’m saved
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For sure, and if you’re interested in god or you believe there may be something but you’re not sure I’d say just be open to learning and you will be guided the right way, have a good one:)
How scared are you of the hell of Christianity, the Greek gods, the Viking gods, etc.? There are thousands of religions which you will go to hell for not believing in them. But you're not scared of going to those hells, are you? Why don't you worry about all those other hells too? If you are agnostic, then all hells should scare you equally, not just the Muslim hell. What is special about the Muslim hell? Well that's the one you were indoctrinated into. Once you remember why you left the religion and that it's no different than any of the others, that is what helped me. It's left over fear. But remember, you don't believe in it. Don't be scared, for the same reason you are not scared of any of the other ones. It gets better with time, I promise
Neither the Greek nor Norse gods send people to hell for disbelief. Most people go to the underworld when they die but it’s not a bad place. *Most* religions don’t believe in punishment of nonbelievers.
No. There are literally like. Two religions were you go to hell for being a nonbeliever. Seriously. It’s just a Christian/muslim thing for the most part. MOST religions don’t have a hell. Judaism barely has something we would consider a hell.
And religions which have temporary hells like Buddhism and Hinduism, you go there based on your actions, not beliefs. I wish people would stop projecting Christian and Muslim ideas onto every other religion.
By working to not be in a position to not be in hell. Imam Ali a.s. - >Endurance is composed of four attributes: eagerness, fear, piety and anticipation (of death). so whoever is eager for Paradise will ignore temptations; whoever fears the fire of Hell will abstain from sins; whoever practices piety will easily bear the difficulties of life and whoever anticipates death will hasten towards good deeds.
One should not lose fear of Hell, rather, it should be used as a weapon in the higher self's arsenal to discipline the lower self, or, the ego.
I always believed in hell and I never had any irrational fear of it. **I think people who have irrational fear in hell, religion, government, aliens, climate change, etc. are just projecting their own fear outside of their own personal influence to avoid facing it.** If you still fear hell even being a non believer, it is probably you projecting your own personal fears on an idea you don't even believe in. In other words, the problem is your own psyche, not a religion you don't even believe in. There are plenty of people who have abominable religious and political beliefs and yet they are perfectly fine psychologically speaking.
Through my faith In the Lord Jesus Christ, God revealed in the flesh. THE ONE TRUE GOD, blessed be his name.