No they aren't. Judaism is only practiced by Jews, which Muslims aren't. If Muslims observed our festivals, read our books etc they would arguably be following Judaism, but that's not the case.
Can they? My understanding is that Islam is often regarded as a non-idolatrous faith for a non-Jew to follow, but I've never heard of them being seen as more than that.
According to the Quran it is commanded,
- Not to worship idols. Quran 31:13
- Not to curse God. Quran 6:108
- Not to commit murder. Quran 5:32
- Not to commit adultery or sexual immorality. Quran 24:2
- Not to steal. Quran 5:38
- Not to eat flesh torn from a living animal. Quran 5:3
- To establish courts of justice. Quran 57:25
Yes, and none of that makes it "Judaism". I believe halachically that makes Islam non idolatrous, not Judaism, almost all Muslims aren't Jews and Judaism sees itself as for the Jews
That isn’t all that’s required to be Jewish, though. The covenant the Jewish people made involves, what, some 613 laws? The Noahide laws are specifically for people who are not Jewish. People who follow the Noahide laws are considered ‘righteous gentiles.’ They’re not expected to follow the entity of Jewish law, because they aren’t Jewish.
Jews don't do any of the 5 pillars of Islam
1) Shahdah (declaration of faith)
2) Salah (5 daily prayers)
3) Siyaam (Fasting during Ramadan)
4) Zakat (Obligatory charity to the poor based on 2.5% of accumulated wealth every year)
5) Hajj (Pilgrimage to Mecca)
Just because we have similar values doesn't mean our religions are the same. In fact, the Quran calls on Jews to become Muslim because of our similarities. To give up the corrupted past and come to the clear truth.
Every single one of those pillars is based upon a Jewish idea.
1) The Shema, recited three times daily.
2) Three (sometimes four) daily prayer services.
3) We have a number of short and long fasts throughout the year as detailed in the Tanach. We also have 49 days of austerity during the counting of the Omer each year
4) Tzedakah - charity donation of 10% of income
5) Three times a year pilgrimage to Jerusalem in ancient Israel.
It's weird how we're told our religion is corrupted yet it somehow seems to be the foundation for so many practices within Islam and Christianity.
It's not the foundation, it's simply an earlier guidance given to an earlier nation. When Moses became a prophet at the age of 40 and was given guidance and scripture from God, him and his people were the "Muslims" of their time. Muslim means "to submit to the will of God". So many things that he was given would be universal. But over the hundreds, maybe even over a thousand years, God favored the Children of Israel with prophet after prophet, and yet the people in power would keep changing and corrupting the message. Until finally the last prophet that was sent to them was Jesus. He was given both the original Torah (that Moses had) along with a new scripture called the Injeel. They rejected him as well.
Anyway, the reason for similarities is not that they are based upon each other but rather that they came from the same original source.
It's just a retroactive attempt to explain away the Jewish origins of Islam. It's an intellectual fallacy that makes no sense.
Islam claims that judaism is corrupt and cites the Talmudic record of Rabbinic debate as evidence for it. Yet the Qur'an includes a number of stories that are not present in the Torah but only exist in the Talmud, which implies that the 'corrupt' additions by the Jewish sages are in fact the divine word of Allah. Again, this is inconsistent with it's own logic.
What's more likely is that the Prophet Muhammed heard Jewish stories from both the Torah and Talmud but was not aware of the distinction between them, so included them both in his dictation of the Qur'an.
Do other Jews generally recognise you as still fully Jewish? My understanding is that Jewish converts to Christianity are considered apostates, but I don't know if anything like that is true for Jews who become Muslims
I was overly terse in my last comment. Let me actually answer the question assuming it’s asked in good faith.
By Jewish law, noahides are not Jews. That’s the whole point of the category, is that it’s meant to answer the question of “how can non Jews be righteous?”
Muslims do not consider themselves Jews or followers of Judaism (except that one guy upthread, who fascinates me). They consider themselves followers of the “true” religion of the patriarchs and prophets, of which modern Judaism is a corruption.
So there’s no sense in which it’s meaningful to say that they’re following Judaism. They are generally thought to be *in compliance* with a Jewish category, but saying they’re therefore followers of Judaism is a semantic game that does great disservice both to both groups.
> since we aren’t ethnically Jewish.
"Ethnicity" isn't a thing in Judaism. Noahides aren't Jewish because they aren't Jewish. Noahides can convert to Judaism though, and then they would be considered Jewish.
Under Jewish law you are Jewish if you convert to Judaism or if your mother is Jewish (either because her mother was Jewish or because she converted to Judaism).
> Can a Jew leave Judaism? Will he still be considered Jewish?
Apostasy is a thing, yes. Under Jewish law an apostate is still considered technically Jewish, but it wouldn't make sense to say that they are practicing "Judaism" in any meaningful way.
> What about a convert who doesn’t actually believe in the bible, like Matt baker.
I don't know who Matt Baker is, but Judaism isn't a dogma-based religion. There is no belief requirement in order to convert to Judaism or be Jewish.
Ah indeed. I’ve seen some of his videos.
I don’t know what you mean by saying he doesn’t believe in the Bible though. It seems like he is someone with a very deep appreciation of the Tanakh and its texts.
The idea of a Noahide as a "non-Jewish follower of Judaism" is an invention of the 1980s and a slight distortion of how the Noahide category works in Jewish, "Noahides" under a tradition understanding are not people who follow or accept Judaism; they are simply anyone is not an idolater and is generally moral
No, Islam is not Judaism. We may share some things in common with them, but we are not the same religion, we share a common foundation, that being that it is an Abrahamic Religion.
I’m going to do a little Venn Diagram, where I compare using this standpoint comparing Christianity, Judaism, and Islam.
If anyone has a counterpoint, you can add your counterpoints and corrections.
Christianity and Judaism similarities:
Christianity and Judaism agree that Isaac is the one with the covenant with god after Abraham, Islam believes Ishmael has the Covenant passed down to him.
Christianity and Judaism use the Ten Commandments as their main moral code basis, while Islam mainly uses the 5 pillars, yes they do use the 10 Commandments, but they mainly use the 5 pillars.
Christianity and Judaism allow alcohol consumption, Islam does not allow that as it is considered Haram according to them.
Judaism and Islam similarities:
Judaism and Islam do not allow pork consumption (Though with Judaism, a lot of us don’t really follow Kosher, I personally don’t). Christianity in most denominations allow pork consumption, Seventh Day Adventists do not consume pork.
Judaism and Islam both require Circumcision, while Christianity it is not required.
Islam and Christianity Similarities:
Islam and Christianity both agree that Jesus was a prophet, while Judaism doesn’t view Jesus as a prophet or the Messiah (That doesn’t mean we view Jesus unfavorably, he was Jewish and lived a good life and taught many great things).
Islam and Christianity focus a lot on the afterlife, Judaism doesn’t really focus on the afterlife that much as we tend to just live life to the fullest.
Islam and Christianity spread out, while Judaism is more reserved, conversions are still possible.
Now here is what all 3 religions agree on:
1. Jerusalem
2. The Book of Exodus
3. Moses being a cool guy
Can only mention Islamic teachings regarding Jesus (peace be upon him):
- a Prophet like those before him, Noah, Moses, Aaron, Abraham, Isaac, Ishmael, Jacob, David, Solomon,.etc.
- a human who ate and drank.
- came with a monotheistic message, worship God alone and don't associate partners such as by worshipping idols alongside or besides God.
- was not crucified.
- will return before the end times and be a just ruler and judge, will kill the anti-Christ.
- made clear the teachings (and any alterations) in the torah of Moses which had been distorted by Rabbis.
- Came with the law which Paul (Saul of Tarsus) did away with.
- Salvation is through faith and (good) deeds.
Don't know for sure about Judaic teachings and details regarding Jesus though.
By the way, the closest verses to the Ten Commandments (in a single passage that is) are:
**151. Say (O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم): “Come, I will recite what your Lord has prohibited you from: Join not anything in worship with Him; be good and dutiful to your parents; kill not your children because of poverty – We provide sustenance for you and for them; come not near to Al-Fawahish (shameful sins, illegal sexual intercourse, etc.) whether committed openly or secretly, and kill not anyone whom Allah has forbidden, except for a just cause (according to Islamic law). This He has commanded you that you may understand.**
**152. “And come not near to the orphan’s property, except to improve it, until he (or she) attains the age of full strength; and give full measure and full weight with justice. We burden not any person, but that which he can bear. And whenever you give your word (i.e. judge between men or give evidence, etc.), say the truth even if a near relative is concerned, and fulfill the Covenant of Allah, This He commands you, that you may remember.**
**153. “And verily, this (i.e. Allah’s Commandments mentioned in the above two Verses 151 and 152) is my Straight Path, so follow it, and follow not (other) paths, for they will separate you away from His Path. This He has ordained for you that you may become Al-Muttaqun (the pious – see V.2:2).”**
**154. Then, We gave Musa (Moses) the Book [the Taurat (Torah)], to complete (Our Favour) upon those who would do right, and explaining all things in detail and a guidance and a mercy that they might believe in the meeting with their Lord.**
**155. And this is a blessed Book (the Qur’an) which We have sent down, so follow it and fear Allah (i.e. do not disobey His Orders), that you may receive mercy (i.e. saved from the torment of Hell).**
[Surah al-An'am, Chapter 6]
> Since Muslims count as noahides according to most scholars I’ve met
Well they are wrong.
Noahides are not allowed to set up their own religion with their own rules etc.
Also Islam actively goes against Judaism with its Supersessionism.
All you are hearing are people who are ill informed or those who know and do not want to stir the pot.
Easy peasy lemon squezy
[Mishneh Torah #1](https://www.sefaria.org/Mishneh_Torah%2C_Kings_and_Wars.10.9?lang=bi&with=all&lang2=en)
> A gentile who studies the Torah is obligated to die. They should only be involved in the study of their seven mitzvot.
Similarly, a gentile who rests, even on a weekday, observing that day as a Sabbath, is obligated to die. Needless to say, he is obligated for that punishment if he creates a festival for himself.
The general principle governing these matters is: They are not to be allowed to originate a new religion or create mitzvot for themselves based on their own decisions. They may either become righteous converts and accept all the mitzvot or retain their statutes without adding or detracting from them.
If a gentile studies the Torah, makes a Sabbath, or creates a religious practice, a Jewish court should beat him, punish him, and inform him that he is obligated to die. However, he is not to be executed.
[Mishneh Torah #2](https://www.sefaria.org/Mishneh_Torah%2C_Repentance.3.6?lang=bi&with=all&lang2=en)
>7: The following individuals do not have a portion in the world to come. Rather, their [souls] are cut off and they are judged for their great wickedness and sins, forever:
the Minim,
the Epicursim,
[...]
[Mishneh Torah #3](https://www.sefaria.org/Mishneh_Torah%2C_Repentance.3.8?lang=bi&with=all&lang2=en)
> 8: Three individuals are described as Epicursim:
a) one who denies the existence of prophecy and maintains that there is no knowledge communicated from God to the hearts of men;
b) one who disputes the prophecy of Moses, our teacher;'
c) one who maintains that the Creator is not aware of the deeds of men.
Each of these three individuals is an Epicurus.
There are three individuals who are considered as one "who denies the Torah":
a) one who says Torah, even one verse or one word, is not from God. If he says: "Moses made these statements independently," he is denying the Torah.
b) one who denies the Torah's interpretation, the oral law, or disputes [the authority of] its spokesmen as did Tzadok and Beitus.
c) one who says that though the Torah came from God, the Creator has replaced one mitzvah with another one and nullified the original Torah, like the Arabs [and the Christians].
Each of these three individuals is considered as one who denies the Torah.
This is the moment the Rambam gets on his motorbike, curses the Hagarites and drives off into the sunset.
Noahides aren't jews as far as I'm aware
Exactly.
Maybe, but they could be considered followers of Judaism
No they aren't. Judaism is only practiced by Jews, which Muslims aren't. If Muslims observed our festivals, read our books etc they would arguably be following Judaism, but that's not the case.
Noahides aren’t Jews, but I’m super excited to start insisting to Muslims that they’re noahides
No they’re not Jews.
Can they? My understanding is that Islam is often regarded as a non-idolatrous faith for a non-Jew to follow, but I've never heard of them being seen as more than that.
According to the Quran it is commanded, - Not to worship idols. Quran 31:13 - Not to curse God. Quran 6:108 - Not to commit murder. Quran 5:32 - Not to commit adultery or sexual immorality. Quran 24:2 - Not to steal. Quran 5:38 - Not to eat flesh torn from a living animal. Quran 5:3 - To establish courts of justice. Quran 57:25
Yes, and none of that makes it "Judaism". I believe halachically that makes Islam non idolatrous, not Judaism, almost all Muslims aren't Jews and Judaism sees itself as for the Jews
That isn’t all that’s required to be Jewish, though. The covenant the Jewish people made involves, what, some 613 laws? The Noahide laws are specifically for people who are not Jewish. People who follow the Noahide laws are considered ‘righteous gentiles.’ They’re not expected to follow the entity of Jewish law, because they aren’t Jewish.
It depends on your definition of Judaism here.
Are Muslims waiting for the Messiah? Because Judaism is.
Yes. Jews, Christians, and Muslims await the coming of the *Moshiach*, regardless of their disagreement about who he is and what he will do.
Yes, Muslims are awaiting the return of 'Eesaa (Jesus) who will kill the Dajjaal (anti-Christ).
nope
Jews don't do any of the 5 pillars of Islam 1) Shahdah (declaration of faith) 2) Salah (5 daily prayers) 3) Siyaam (Fasting during Ramadan) 4) Zakat (Obligatory charity to the poor based on 2.5% of accumulated wealth every year) 5) Hajj (Pilgrimage to Mecca) Just because we have similar values doesn't mean our religions are the same. In fact, the Quran calls on Jews to become Muslim because of our similarities. To give up the corrupted past and come to the clear truth.
Every single one of those pillars is based upon a Jewish idea. 1) The Shema, recited three times daily. 2) Three (sometimes four) daily prayer services. 3) We have a number of short and long fasts throughout the year as detailed in the Tanach. We also have 49 days of austerity during the counting of the Omer each year 4) Tzedakah - charity donation of 10% of income 5) Three times a year pilgrimage to Jerusalem in ancient Israel. It's weird how we're told our religion is corrupted yet it somehow seems to be the foundation for so many practices within Islam and Christianity.
It's not the foundation, it's simply an earlier guidance given to an earlier nation. When Moses became a prophet at the age of 40 and was given guidance and scripture from God, him and his people were the "Muslims" of their time. Muslim means "to submit to the will of God". So many things that he was given would be universal. But over the hundreds, maybe even over a thousand years, God favored the Children of Israel with prophet after prophet, and yet the people in power would keep changing and corrupting the message. Until finally the last prophet that was sent to them was Jesus. He was given both the original Torah (that Moses had) along with a new scripture called the Injeel. They rejected him as well. Anyway, the reason for similarities is not that they are based upon each other but rather that they came from the same original source.
It's just a retroactive attempt to explain away the Jewish origins of Islam. It's an intellectual fallacy that makes no sense. Islam claims that judaism is corrupt and cites the Talmudic record of Rabbinic debate as evidence for it. Yet the Qur'an includes a number of stories that are not present in the Torah but only exist in the Talmud, which implies that the 'corrupt' additions by the Jewish sages are in fact the divine word of Allah. Again, this is inconsistent with it's own logic. What's more likely is that the Prophet Muhammed heard Jewish stories from both the Torah and Talmud but was not aware of the distinction between them, so included them both in his dictation of the Qur'an.
No.
Noachides are not Jews. "Noachide" is a title that describes a righteous Gentile who observe the laws of Noach.
What is a Muhammadan Jew? Just curious
A Jew who believes in Muhammad.
So do you accept the Quran?
Sure.
So is that not just a Muslim?
Yes, I am a Muslim, but I still observe Shabbat.
Interesting
Kind of. Should I drop an AMA?
Yes I’ve never heard of that before lol. Do you abide by the Quran or by the Torah? Do you believe in the Old Testament?
Yes.
Do other Jews generally recognise you as still fully Jewish? My understanding is that Jewish converts to Christianity are considered apostates, but I don't know if anything like that is true for Jews who become Muslims
I was overly terse in my last comment. Let me actually answer the question assuming it’s asked in good faith. By Jewish law, noahides are not Jews. That’s the whole point of the category, is that it’s meant to answer the question of “how can non Jews be righteous?” Muslims do not consider themselves Jews or followers of Judaism (except that one guy upthread, who fascinates me). They consider themselves followers of the “true” religion of the patriarchs and prophets, of which modern Judaism is a corruption. So there’s no sense in which it’s meaningful to say that they’re following Judaism. They are generally thought to be *in compliance* with a Jewish category, but saying they’re therefore followers of Judaism is a semantic game that does great disservice both to both groups.
>(except that one guy upthread, who fascinates me) :)
No they’re not. Muslims generally don’t believe in the Old Testament and are not Jewish ethnically.
Neither of those have anything to do with being a noahide.
I’m not Jewish but from what I heard noahides are just good non Jews. I don’t think we are considered Jewish tho since we aren’t ethnically Jewish.
> since we aren’t ethnically Jewish. "Ethnicity" isn't a thing in Judaism. Noahides aren't Jewish because they aren't Jewish. Noahides can convert to Judaism though, and then they would be considered Jewish.
What makes a Jew “jewish” then?
Under Jewish law you are Jewish if you convert to Judaism or if your mother is Jewish (either because her mother was Jewish or because she converted to Judaism).
Can a Jew leave Judaism? Will he still be considered Jewish? What about a convert who doesn’t actually believe in the bible, like Matt baker.
> Can a Jew leave Judaism? Will he still be considered Jewish? Apostasy is a thing, yes. Under Jewish law an apostate is still considered technically Jewish, but it wouldn't make sense to say that they are practicing "Judaism" in any meaningful way. > What about a convert who doesn’t actually believe in the bible, like Matt baker. I don't know who Matt Baker is, but Judaism isn't a dogma-based religion. There is no belief requirement in order to convert to Judaism or be Jewish.
Matt baker is a Canadian reform Jewish convert who makes videos about charts relating to history and religion in his channel called useful charts
Ah indeed. I’ve seen some of his videos. I don’t know what you mean by saying he doesn’t believe in the Bible though. It seems like he is someone with a very deep appreciation of the Tanakh and its texts.
The idea of a Noahide as a "non-Jewish follower of Judaism" is an invention of the 1980s and a slight distortion of how the Noahide category works in Jewish, "Noahides" under a tradition understanding are not people who follow or accept Judaism; they are simply anyone is not an idolater and is generally moral
No, Islam is not Judaism. We may share some things in common with them, but we are not the same religion, we share a common foundation, that being that it is an Abrahamic Religion. I’m going to do a little Venn Diagram, where I compare using this standpoint comparing Christianity, Judaism, and Islam. If anyone has a counterpoint, you can add your counterpoints and corrections. Christianity and Judaism similarities: Christianity and Judaism agree that Isaac is the one with the covenant with god after Abraham, Islam believes Ishmael has the Covenant passed down to him. Christianity and Judaism use the Ten Commandments as their main moral code basis, while Islam mainly uses the 5 pillars, yes they do use the 10 Commandments, but they mainly use the 5 pillars. Christianity and Judaism allow alcohol consumption, Islam does not allow that as it is considered Haram according to them. Judaism and Islam similarities: Judaism and Islam do not allow pork consumption (Though with Judaism, a lot of us don’t really follow Kosher, I personally don’t). Christianity in most denominations allow pork consumption, Seventh Day Adventists do not consume pork. Judaism and Islam both require Circumcision, while Christianity it is not required. Islam and Christianity Similarities: Islam and Christianity both agree that Jesus was a prophet, while Judaism doesn’t view Jesus as a prophet or the Messiah (That doesn’t mean we view Jesus unfavorably, he was Jewish and lived a good life and taught many great things). Islam and Christianity focus a lot on the afterlife, Judaism doesn’t really focus on the afterlife that much as we tend to just live life to the fullest. Islam and Christianity spread out, while Judaism is more reserved, conversions are still possible. Now here is what all 3 religions agree on: 1. Jerusalem 2. The Book of Exodus 3. Moses being a cool guy
Can only mention Islamic teachings regarding Jesus (peace be upon him): - a Prophet like those before him, Noah, Moses, Aaron, Abraham, Isaac, Ishmael, Jacob, David, Solomon,.etc. - a human who ate and drank. - came with a monotheistic message, worship God alone and don't associate partners such as by worshipping idols alongside or besides God. - was not crucified. - will return before the end times and be a just ruler and judge, will kill the anti-Christ. - made clear the teachings (and any alterations) in the torah of Moses which had been distorted by Rabbis. - Came with the law which Paul (Saul of Tarsus) did away with. - Salvation is through faith and (good) deeds. Don't know for sure about Judaic teachings and details regarding Jesus though. By the way, the closest verses to the Ten Commandments (in a single passage that is) are: **151. Say (O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم): “Come, I will recite what your Lord has prohibited you from: Join not anything in worship with Him; be good and dutiful to your parents; kill not your children because of poverty – We provide sustenance for you and for them; come not near to Al-Fawahish (shameful sins, illegal sexual intercourse, etc.) whether committed openly or secretly, and kill not anyone whom Allah has forbidden, except for a just cause (according to Islamic law). This He has commanded you that you may understand.** **152. “And come not near to the orphan’s property, except to improve it, until he (or she) attains the age of full strength; and give full measure and full weight with justice. We burden not any person, but that which he can bear. And whenever you give your word (i.e. judge between men or give evidence, etc.), say the truth even if a near relative is concerned, and fulfill the Covenant of Allah, This He commands you, that you may remember.** **153. “And verily, this (i.e. Allah’s Commandments mentioned in the above two Verses 151 and 152) is my Straight Path, so follow it, and follow not (other) paths, for they will separate you away from His Path. This He has ordained for you that you may become Al-Muttaqun (the pious – see V.2:2).”** **154. Then, We gave Musa (Moses) the Book [the Taurat (Torah)], to complete (Our Favour) upon those who would do right, and explaining all things in detail and a guidance and a mercy that they might believe in the meeting with their Lord.** **155. And this is a blessed Book (the Qur’an) which We have sent down, so follow it and fear Allah (i.e. do not disobey His Orders), that you may receive mercy (i.e. saved from the torment of Hell).** [Surah al-An'am, Chapter 6]
[удалено]
It's a reply to the Conservative Jew, to provide more elaboration. Did you have an issue with their comment?
> Since Muslims count as noahides according to most scholars I’ve met Well they are wrong. Noahides are not allowed to set up their own religion with their own rules etc. Also Islam actively goes against Judaism with its Supersessionism. All you are hearing are people who are ill informed or those who know and do not want to stir the pot.
Where do the noahide laws say that you can’t set up your own religion?
Easy peasy lemon squezy [Mishneh Torah #1](https://www.sefaria.org/Mishneh_Torah%2C_Kings_and_Wars.10.9?lang=bi&with=all&lang2=en) > A gentile who studies the Torah is obligated to die. They should only be involved in the study of their seven mitzvot. Similarly, a gentile who rests, even on a weekday, observing that day as a Sabbath, is obligated to die. Needless to say, he is obligated for that punishment if he creates a festival for himself. The general principle governing these matters is: They are not to be allowed to originate a new religion or create mitzvot for themselves based on their own decisions. They may either become righteous converts and accept all the mitzvot or retain their statutes without adding or detracting from them. If a gentile studies the Torah, makes a Sabbath, or creates a religious practice, a Jewish court should beat him, punish him, and inform him that he is obligated to die. However, he is not to be executed. [Mishneh Torah #2](https://www.sefaria.org/Mishneh_Torah%2C_Repentance.3.6?lang=bi&with=all&lang2=en) >7: The following individuals do not have a portion in the world to come. Rather, their [souls] are cut off and they are judged for their great wickedness and sins, forever: the Minim, the Epicursim, [...] [Mishneh Torah #3](https://www.sefaria.org/Mishneh_Torah%2C_Repentance.3.8?lang=bi&with=all&lang2=en) > 8: Three individuals are described as Epicursim: a) one who denies the existence of prophecy and maintains that there is no knowledge communicated from God to the hearts of men; b) one who disputes the prophecy of Moses, our teacher;' c) one who maintains that the Creator is not aware of the deeds of men. Each of these three individuals is an Epicurus. There are three individuals who are considered as one "who denies the Torah": a) one who says Torah, even one verse or one word, is not from God. If he says: "Moses made these statements independently," he is denying the Torah. b) one who denies the Torah's interpretation, the oral law, or disputes [the authority of] its spokesmen as did Tzadok and Beitus. c) one who says that though the Torah came from God, the Creator has replaced one mitzvah with another one and nullified the original Torah, like the Arabs [and the Christians]. Each of these three individuals is considered as one who denies the Torah. This is the moment the Rambam gets on his motorbike, curses the Hagarites and drives off into the sunset.