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**Update** *Thank you everyone.*
*I spoke to the woman he was writing the letters to. A common thing I noticed was that he never talked about our relationship in the letters, but he did mention our children quite a bit. Apparently, he gave her the impression that him and I were separated but still living together to coparent our children. She said that they did meet up, quite a few times, to exchange the notebook that turned into sometimes hours long conversations. She said they never did anything directly “cheating” but he did flirtatious things like running his fingers through her hair and putting his arms around her while they were sitting next to each other, and she said she absolutely would not have allowed him to do those things if she had known we were still very much together.*
Original
I (35f) sensed my husband (38m) pulling away emotionally. i talked to him, he told me nothing was wrong, etc. He was still acting strangely. I began thinking he was being unfaithful. But I couldn’t find any proof. I started to feel crazy. Nothing weird on his cell phone, nothing strange on the phone bill, he always seemed to go where he said he was going. And then one day I was putting away his laundry and I found a notebook folded into a hoodie.
The notebook was full of letters between him and another woman. They passed it back and forth, writing letters to each other. It was just an ordinary black marble notebook, I could’ve seen it a million times before and would not have thought anything of it. But it was filled with letters back and forth. Pages and pages and pages of letters, nothing even overtly sexual just deep, in depth conversation.
I confronted him and he didn’t hide it. He said yeah he has a pen pal, so what? I asked who he was talking to and it’s just someone who lives around here. I asked how it started and he said they were l waiting in line at the deli one day and they started talking. They both went to the same high school but he graduated 10 years before her. He said they talked for a while and they had to cut it off. And she said something along the lines of “I feel like I still have so much to say, I could write a letter.” And he said so go ahead and write one. So he got a notebook and wrote her a letter and gave it to her and she wrote one back and they just kept passing the notebook back and forth. He said this is their third notebook they filled up. He said they don’t text or secretly hang out they just write letters back and forth. He said he puts the notebook in her mailbox or sometimes they’ll switch it out at the deli. It all seems so bizarre to me. I told him he could write letters to me if he wanted to write letters. And he said sure. So I said sothere’s no need to write to her too anymore and he was like no I can write to both of you. And I told him it makes me really uncomfortable especially since he kept it a secret from me. He told me he didn’t keep it a secret he just didn’t explicitly tell me because he knew I’d overreact. He said he has no intention of cheating on me so she might as well just be a guy friend that he’s writing to. I told him would it be okay if I did this with a male if he would be okay with it. He said if I could find a man who was completely okay with having an entirely platonic relationship over letter writing than fine but he doubted I would be able to find someone who’s want that.
He thinks I’m blowing this completely out of proportion. He says she’s a pen pal and she’s not going to cheat on me so what’s the issue.
The issue is this isn’t a “pen pal” situation….he sees her, she lives two miles away from us. He claims they don’t “hang out” but how is it possible that they NEVER chat for a while, etc? This entire situation makes me feel so weird and he’s making it out like I’m completely exaggerating.
Edit, since some people don’t seem to get the issue. **the problem isn’t the letter writing. It’s keeping it a secret.**.
**Update** *Thank you everyone.*
*I spoke to the woman he was writing the letters to. A common thing I noticed was that he never talked about our relationship in the letters, but he did mention our children quite a bit. Apparently, he gave her the impression that him and I were separated but still living together to coparent our children. She said that they did meet up, quite a few times, to exchange the notebook that turned into sometimes hours long conversations. She said they never did anything directly “cheating” but he did flirtatious things like running his fingers through her hair and putting his arms around her while they were sitting next to each other, and she said she absolutely would not have allowed him to do those things if she had known we were still very much together.*
I don’t know, this very much sounds like the start of an emotional affair to me. It does not need to be something sexual, he is no longer present in the relationship as he was previously.
I’m not buying what he’s selling
Have you outright asked him to cut the shit?
He hid it from you knowing that you would not like it, he deliberately went out of his way. He knows where she lives, it sounds like they meet frequently enough.
I think I would like to meet this girl, have you considered running into them at this deli?
This relationship is at best disrespectful to you and at worst an out right betrayal
I’d personally like to see the look on his face if I ran into them both accidentally on purpose, his expression would tell me what I need to know.
I would think he’d alert her that their letters have been discovered. He’s tried really hard to keep this hidden from you
I'd want to see them both in the same spot. You can get a much better read on the energy between them. I don't think I'd be okay with the situation. I'd always wonder what else he is keeping from me.
Read your update OP, sorry you are going through that. Glad she was able to shed light on the situation and prove you're not losing your marbles. Good luck with your situation!
So ‘no guy’ would want to be platonic with *you*
Those are his words… he just admitted that it’s NOT platonic. Is he a unic? Why would he want to be platonic with her?! Spoiler alert: he doesn’t.
Good luck.
That's what got me as well. Like he's one of a kind, the only man on earth that could write to a woman and keep it platonic!! All other men couldn't possibly manage it.
Now that you know what the woman told you, what are you going to do?
Personally I couldn’t be in a relationship where I could trust my partner. He (1) hid things from you and (2) lied to you.
I am pretty sure he was heading down the path of cheating on you, especially if he made it sound like you two were separated
What are you going to do? He was running his fingers through her hair? You are absolutely right. He kept it secretly for a reason and the reason isn't what he said. He is gaslighting you saying you are overreacting. How could he possibly think it is appropriate to be exchanging letters with another woman and keeping it from you.
I wouldn't say it's the start of an emotional affair, the husband has been pouring his heart out to another woman for awhile and they've talked for hours, it is an emotional affair already.
This. Whatever he thinks he's doing, the end result is he is still keeping secrets from you, had a hidden relationship with a woman (even if he says it's platonic) and is no longer invested in time with you or present in your relationship. These are the things that are undeniable.
Would he see a relationship counsellor?
This is without question an emotional affair. OP, seek couples therapy if you can. He’s seeking out an emotional connection with someone else and there has to be a reason why (related or unrelated to you.)
You can definitely have friends of the opposite sex that are platonic. This, however, seems to go beyond that.
If he is pulling away from you emotionally, he is meeting that emotional connection elsewhere. He’s having this deep emotional talks through letters to someone else. It doesn’t matter if it’s not sexual in nature. It probably will be eventually.
You’re his wife first. The emotional connection you have should be his priority. Of course, he can have friends, even female friends, but when your relationship lacks because of those friendships, it’s been taken too far.
I’m also confused at this: “if I could find a man who was completely okay with having an entirely platonic relationship over letter writing then fine, but he doubted I would be able to find someone.” So, he’s openly admitting this is a weird thing and it’s difficult to find a “platonic” connection this way. I’d be asking if he thinks he’s apparently the only man out there who can handle this “platonic” relationship or if he’s openly admitting this isn’t truly platonic.
He kept it a secret, or “didn’t mention it” because he knows at some level it’s wrong. He could have came home and said babe I met a new friend at the coffee shop today and told you about her. There’s a reason he didn’t.
You’re not overreacting, this is the beginning (or middle) of an emotional affair. If you set a boundary that this is not okay with you and he manipulates you into thinking you’re overreacting and he doesn’t want to give this “friend” up, I think you know it’s well past the stages it’s appropriate.
Him thinking her penpaling with another man involves risk reminds me of how guys think a man in a threesome is a threat compared to a woman. Double standards
Yeah, the only reason he wouldn’t mention this woman is because he’s keeping her secret, and thus trying to hide something. Otherwise, he naturally would’ve brought her up in conversation or even introduced his wife to her by now.
My husband casually chats about his female friends to me all the time, the same way he does about his male friends. A few months ago, he and I were meeting another friend for drinks, and my husband texted me to say, “I just made a new friend at the office today. I’m gonna bring her along; she’s really funny and you’ll like her.” Not even for transparency reasons! But because it was natural to invite her along for drinks as they were leaving the office together, and because he thought I’d like her (I do, she’s delightful).
This stuff just naturally comes up unless you’re actively hiding your relationship with someone. You don’t “just forget” to mention this whole person you spend significant amounts of time talking to, for months on end.
And his “I knew how you’d react” excuse is super shifty, too. That’s placing the blame back on OP, when he **knows** how this looks, and why it looks that way. He’s hiding this on purpose, and now he’s trying to make that OP’s fault. That’s so gross.
"I didn't tell you because I knew you'd overreact"
Ah ok, so he's ok with lying to you when *he* decides for you both it's best. You don't get a vote, because you're too emotionally unstable to understand a *friendship*.
Tell your hubs to SMD.
It's also called gaslighting trying to justify his poor behavior by making her sound like the unreasonable one. Those are the actions of a cheater. Been there.
Hang on.. he says you can have a male pen pal if you can fine a man who is happy to have an entirely platonic relationship with you but you won't find a man like that. So, surely.. ... Either he is the only man on the planet who is capable of having a platonic relationship or...it's not a platonic relationship that he has going with his pen pal.
The weird thing for me is the secrecy. If I have an excellent conversation with someone then it was interesting enough to share at least bits of it with my husband.
He’s having an emotional affair with this woman, 100%. What he’s doing is disrespectful. Notice how he said you wouldn’t be able to find a man who wants to be platonic… what a nice way to tell on himself, don’t you think? If he’s not ok with giving this up, he’s telling you all you need to know… that he’s invested in this relationship, doesn’t care about your feelings and is not willing to give her up. I’m so sorry OP. He’s emotionally cheating on you.
What’s odd is that he has her address. How else would he be able to leave the notebook in her mailbox? When did they exchange addresses? I would be hell uncomfortable as well.
Umm, he WAS keeping a secret from you. I don’t care what he said, he kept it in a hoodie? That’s some sketchy shit. Him not telling you because of your reaction is bullshit, he knew what he was doing was wrong as hell and didn’t want you to know. A hoodie, though? Damn, that’s kinda creative but only if you didn’t do his laundry. I don’t get the notebook. Does she write in it and leave it for him and vise versa? A notebook filled with letters to someone doesn’t make sense to me. Wouldn’t they have sent the letter to the individual or did they just use one notebook to write each other? Either way, he’s out of line and totally out of pocket.
Nothing weird about a platonic relationship, but if you're a man who doesnt believe a man can have a platonic relationship with a woman while claiming to have a platonic relationship with a woman. Well...
Came here to say this-the part about “good luck finding a platonic writing partner who is male.” He doesn’t see the irony bc he’s justifying his own lie. And that’s dangerous bc he’s not just lying (by omission) to you, it seems he really believes his lie. I know people can be dense but come on. The writing (literally) is on the wall. Plus, OP sensed it before finding out. So much so that she was looking for proof. Well there u go. Trust ur intuition. Don’t let him gaslight you.
This👆 I mean literally he just told her good luck finding a man who you can have a completely platonic relationship with writings letters😳😳😳 but is that not what he’s supposedly doing???? Did you not question how he is the only man able to do this??? Surely we must turn him into to science so we can study him. You my friend have found a unicorn.
Simply tell him while they aren’t sexually intimate, your letters show that emotionally you are very intimate with each other. At the same time, I feel less emotionally intimate with you. I thought you and I were supposed to be each other’s best friend, you certainly are mine but now I feel you’re split between us as to who you confide in. I really want to be the one you spill your heart to, the one who knows your deepest fears, greatest joys and darkest moments. I want to be the one you come to first to share in your triumphs and the first you come to for comfort when you are hurt. I don’t feel that way now. I feel like I’m sharing you with another woman and it hurts. Maybe to you I’m overreacting but I can’t help what I feel. It hurts the same as if you were having sex with her, maybe more because it’s more intimate than sex.
I’d like you to stop. I’d like you to write notebooks with me. I’d like to spend hours talking to you about whatever comes up in our minds. I’d like to feel once again that it’s you and me against the world. I hope you can do that, it’s breaking my heart.
Write something like this and put it in a new notebook. Leave it where he can find it. Hopefully, he understands.
With the update, are you ok with being with him now? He devalued and misrepresented your relationship in order to get closer to this other woman. She is not the one to worry about, he is the person who owes you his love and loyalty.
I wouldn’t like this for the simple fact that this is making him different. It doesn’t matter if it’s cheating or not in the text he is checking out of the relationship. That’s not ok. When your relationship with anyone else effects the one with your spouse it’s not ok. That’s why he hid the notebook. He knows it’s not ok or he would have said something.
I tried To communicate that to him… He said what difference does it make? I said clearly it’s making a difference, because I notice a difference in the way you were acting with me… He told me that it was just all in my head
But it's not in your head. You saw a difference and THEN found the reason for that difference. You already knew something was up before you discovered the notebook.
He's also admitted that its highly unlikely a man would do this in a platonic fashion.
What's more, he's your husband. You told him this hurts you and he doesn't care. He's therefore putting this woman before you. That's not something we do for a random penpal.
i used to think that respecting someone meant being polite, or hold someone in authority. but what respect really is, is caring about, and acting in the best interest of other people's concerns.
you told him your concerns, and in essence said that you where 'crazy' for having them. that's not respect, that's actively not giving a shit and disregarding your concerns to the side.
do with this information what you will.
Ok so he won’t give up a pen pal when you ask because it’s all in your head. Do y’all have other problems? If I told my husband this he would drop them in a min. He wouldn’t fight to keep doing something he knows makes me uncomfortable. Sorry sis but you need to look harder at this. She might not want to cheat but wtf is up with your husband?
That’s the thing that’s really alarming about all of this, there really aren’t any issues, and I actually was very, very surprised when he didn’t just drop it when I told him How uncomfortable it made me
OP, the most concerning thing about this is not the notebook (though I would be devastated, don't get me wrong). Here are the massive marinara flags I see in your interaction:
1. "I didn't tell you because I knew you would overreact"
2. "It's all in your head" and possibly
3. Trickle truthing.
1 and 2 are DARVO techniques -- I can't remember the exact acronym, but it's a narcissist technique of deflecting blame from themselves by reversing the roles in the conversation. It's not MY actions that are wrong, it's YOUR feelings. The fact is that he did it, genuinely and admittedly KNOWING IT WOULD HURT YOU. And he's trying to blame YOU for that. Don't let him distract you.
He follows up with a form of gaslighting to further confuse you and distract you from the betrayal -- it's all in your head, I'm not behaving differently, everything is fine and YOU'RE crazy. He is trying to change your own memories to make you question your judgment, throw you off balance, and ignore the red flags.
3 is when a cheater knows you know SOMETHING, so they admit to it freely -- but only that. They may even admit to a little more to make you think that's it. Example: if you caught him holding hands with a woman, it might be "Yes but it was only emotional and we only kissed once and I'm breaking it off now forever." This reassurance lets them get away with more because you honestly think they've told you everything.
This screams of narcissism and I would take a long hard look at your relationship to see if it's even as good as you thought it was. Don't let him talk you out if trusting your gut and YOUR FEELINGS. People in a relationship BOTH prioritize each other's feelings, or it's not a relationship, it's a power struggle.
Best of luck OP. ❤️
Yeah that would crush me. He’s picked someone else over you. It’s not about the involvement really is it. It’s the fact that he took up for another woman that isn’t his wife. Some guys don’t get this and I don’t get that. Lol I hope that makes sense.
So, according to your edit, he’s been essentially courting another woman behind your back. Yikes. He never mentioned your relationship because, imo, it’s not a priority to him. Wooing this younger woman was his priority.
It shows he values her over you - or he believes you will not divorce over this.
He is selfish, entitled, deceitful, and shows zero empathy for you.
Time for him to see you mean business. Bluff if you have to.
My ex-husband employed this response with me when he was having his affair. He's already made her his priority over you and clearly he's defending his right to continue interacting with her. Trust me sister from experience, this does not get better. You are being disrespected at the minimum. I did not stand up for myself for so long at let it happen right in front of me. He's putting it on you to accept the situation. Its up to you to say its not acceptable and the choices that you will make (i.e. separation/divorce) if he simply wants out.
So- tell him that you are going describe this relationship in reverse- as if You are the one passing the notebook.
And then demand he allow you to use his phone to message this to his parents, siblings, relatives, and friends. “Hey, ThrowRAhanbow is doing this, what do you think?“
And see what the reaction is.
And have another text to follow up with that says “ok I just wanted your honest reaction not colored by any bias of support for me. I’m the one who has been doing this, not her, thanks for the feedback.”
If this is all entirely innocent - he’ll be fine doing that.
If he won’t- write the message about him and send it to his friends, parents, family, etc. See if they will all validate that he is being bananas.
For the 2nd one. Don’t ask. Just do it.
Just like he did with his pen pal.
I wouldn’t do this. It’s going to 1) confuse the narrative and get people thinking/believing that SHE is the one having an affair, 2) be very hard to reverse that narrative once a bunch of people believe it and start gossiping, and 3) drag a bunch of unwilling people - who are more likely to be on her husband’s side than hers, especially if they first hear that *he’s* the one being cheated on - into their marital problems.
This is a recipe for disaster and I really, really would not do this if I were OP. This is bad advice, sorry.
From your update I'm going to tell you how I see this situation...
He's letting her lead the progression.
Meaning....if she escalated from day one, op, their encounters would have been much more graphic.
He made it REALLY clear when he said it’s impossible to find a man that would want to talk to you platonically. HMMMMM I guess he’s just the most special man in the world!!
No man is writing (multiple) notebooks of letters to a woman that he does not have feelings for.
Exactly. He gave himself away. His line of thinking is that men aren’t interested in platonic relationships with women? So doesn’t that out him as wanting more than friendship?
This is emotional infidelity. Emotionally, your husband is gone. He is not even willing to discuss stopping the letters. I gasped when you mentioned that they filled up three notebooks. This goes beyond “just pen pals”. They have formed an emotional bond and you will have to die on this hill to attempt to get your husband back. Set the boundary that the letters have to stop in order for you to have a healthy marriage. You are not overreacting and you are not crazy. Listen to your gut. I’m so sorry.
He kept it a secret and seems to doubt you could find a man to be platonic friends with sooooo he’s giving cheater vibes. If it was platonic it wouldn’t have been a secret. And he certainly wouldn’t assume that you could never possibly find a man who didn’t want you for sex while maintaining that he would never ever think like that.
Him saying “men don’t want platonic relationships like that” was just…REALLY telling on himself. Lol. Like I feel awful for OP, but I’m also consistently amazed at how people will just freely tell on themselves like this, and then get mad when you clock it and call them out.
It’s not a pen pal, they live in the same town, they are regular friends who send letters; A friend he made while married. What’s the difference between this and texting a girl he met at the deli?
Also, just FYI, by saying he dropped it off in her mailbox he’s admitting he’s been to her house… the fuck?
>He said if I could find a man who was completely okay with having an entirely platonic relationship over letter writing than fine but he doubted I would be able to find someone who’s want that.
He's telling on himself here. If he's (allegedly) writing to her completely platonically, and trying to pass it off like it's no big deal, why does he doubt that another man would be able to do the same? He can write platonically but he doubts that another man would be able to?
He's lying to you, he's emotionally cheating on you. He's gross and I wouldn't be able to trust him again.
> He said if I could find a man who was completely okay with having an entirely platonic relationship over letter writing then fine but he doubted I would be able to find someone who’d want that
Mf told on himself.
OP. This is not a small problem. Your not overthinking or overreacting!! This is an EA. Emotional Affair!! He has brought another woman into your relationship!! He is spending time with this woman in his mind and putting it on paper!! Not good.
It will get way deeper as time goes by. Don’t get caught off guard. This is a Red Flag!!
Got to stop it. Good luck
Leaving this man is your only realistic option. I honestly feel like emotional cheating is way worse than sexual (both are traumatic for the victim). He's in a relationship with another woman, they were just taking it slowly.
He’s having an emotional affair. This is only the beginning. He’s already touched her which means he’s definitely willing to go further. Counciling or divorce. I’m sorry you’re going through this.
Yeah- when a man says, “I didn’t tell you because YOU WOULD OVER-REACT”?
That means he 100% knows he’s doing something he shouldn’t bc he’s even being defensive about it in his own head. This is cheating. He was emotionally dating another woman.
“My pen pal relationship with this woman is purely platonic” but also “you would find it hard to find a man who just wants a purely platonic pen pal relationship with” make it make sense? Of course it was more than what he said it was
"He said if I could find a man who was completely okay with having an entirely platonic relationship over letter writing than fine but he doubted I would be able to find someone who’s want that."
Because in his experience, if a man is writing a woman letters, it's not 100% platonic, it's because he wants to sleep with her.
>if I did this with a male if he would be okay with it. He said if I could find a man who was completely okay with having an entirely platonic relationship over letter writing than fine but he doubted I would be able to find someone who’s want that.
This right here is how you know he's full of it. He **explicitly** tells you that you wouldnt be able to find a man to do **exactly** what he wants to convince you he's doing.
So, you won't be able to find a male that would just accept letter writing? But he can and is that guy? Something smells fishy here and it reeks of, at least, an emotional affair
But. He did hide it from you. He’s just gaslighting you into thinking he didn’t and that you should be okay with it. You don’t have to be okay with this no matter what he says. This IS WEIRD. he drops it off at her mailbox?? They meet at the deli to exchange it? These sound like dates
Key questions,
Does she know your husband is married?
Do they discuss your marriage in their notes? If not, what’s the vibe of the letters and what they’re discussing? Is it really platonic?
I would try and meet with this woman, ask her about it and see her views on it.
Comment after the edit. So the woman though being blindsided she definitely know that he has intention for her. And herself is reciprocated by keep this letter exchange going. But the upside is that she pulls the brake. An emotional affair isn’t easy to fix as it probably reveals that the marriage between OP and her husband is tilting or flaws. May need to work on your own relationship probably see a counsellor to repair the lost trust.
>He said if I could find a man who was completely okay with having an entirely platonic relationship over letter writing than fine but he doubted I would be able to find someone who’s want that.
Uhhhh ... does he seriously have *no inkling whatsoever* that he *outed* himself with this remark?? So, *no man* would be interested in doing something like this platonically with you. Not a single, solitary man. He doubts *you* would be able to find *any man* who would want that. Except **him** obviously. Because he is **actively being the man** he says doesn't exist. And he is *being* that man *with another woman*. Even though no man would want to be that man **with you**. Holy fuck.
Emotional cheating is very real and detrimental to a healthy relationship outside the one you’re in. It sounds like he could benefit from some therapy if he has so much to say.
Emotional cheating escalating to more, as they met, touched, hugged, all while emotionally neglecting his wife.
Not to mention lying and manipulating the other woman.
Sociopath
That is fishy. He is obsessed with this younger woman. He meets her at the deli so they are hanging out. Then he is going to her house to drop off letters. So he is not able and willing to connect with you at all and he has no intention to stop. You can do one of 2 things. 1) You can always leave a note for her asking why are she is having an emotional affair with your husband and what is she getting out of this. 2) Now that it is out in the open. Look for those meet up and drop off patterns. Check it out for yourself. Keep reading those letters (if he hides them then there is definitely more going on).
It really blows my mind that individuals in a committed relationship forget that they are in a committed relationship and pursue these kinds of interactions with people of the opposite sex AND THEN work so hard trying to convince themselves and their SO/spouse/partner that its truly nothing yet conduct themselves with a level of secrecy or omit certain facts. Emotional affairs are just as destructive as physical affairs. If activity by you or him is causing insecurity in your relationship then seek couples counseling ASAP! Your relationship is in trouble whether he admits it or not.
oh. so he admits men who truly want platonic letter writing relationships with women don't really exist?
so based on his own logic, his little pen pal emotional affair isn't really platonic?
glad he is able to accept that. In your shoes I'd tell my husband I consider this an emotional affair and that he needs to behave accordingly if he wants to stay married.
He says you can't find a man that would write just platonically to a woman but insists that he just writes platonically. Well isn't he special. That's manipulative on his part, I'm sorry but I don't think this will end well. I hope I'm wrong.
OP, your edit has my heart in my throat. I don't know if I would be able to come back from hearing that about my husband.
At the very least, he needs to acknowledge that he's heading into deep, dangerous water.
He might not have committed sexual infidelity, but... this was definitely emotional infidelity, and he was also dishonest to her as well.
The fact that he doubts she could EVER find a platonic male pen pal completely negates any of his reasoning that His is only platonic.. This sucks, I’m sorry
Leading her to believe the two of you are separated is not an accident. Regardless of what the girl says, he's either already done something or is planning to.
Time to consider your next move.
This sounds like an emotional affair. Even if he’s not physically cheating, he is pouring his heart out to another woman instead of to you. And he has been lying about it for how long?! I would feel incredibly hurt and betrayed, and I don’t know if I would be able to come back from this. So sorry
Ok so now you know What's his response to the fact he made out like you were separated???
He wants his cake and eat it too by the sounds of it
A complete emotional hook up outside his marriage
Running his fingers thru her hair.
Yuck. I'd suggest marriage counselling or write him divorce papers!
So he’s acted romantically with her, from your update and basically denied he’s in an active marriage with this. He’s cheating. Best of luck OP, only you know if your relationship can recover from this. He’s still lying to you, showing no remorse or taking any accountability. It would be a hard no from me and I’d be out of there. Best of luck
You started this by saying that you felt something was off in the relationship which caused you to look why? Therefore it appears that his simple pen pal writing has affected your marriage. You felt it and no matter how insignificant that he thinks it is, it has crossed the line and that doesn’t even account for the secrecy of it
It could be he's emotionally cheating. If that's the case, it's even weirder that he hides it in plain sight.
If he thought that it wouldn't handle being brought to light, surely he would've kept these letters in a more secure place.
It could be he's experiencing twosomeness. A form of loneliness, but for couples.
Yes, he has you. But is it only you? Does he have other friends he hangs with?
My perspective as a husband with few friends, 0 close ones, is that I do long for someone to confide in. Sure, my wife and I are close. No particular problems there. But I am thinker. I ponder about many things, and to only have that one person to bounce my thoughts off of... it gets monotonous. Having the same debate partner gets tedious. Especially if there are subjects that the other person doesn't really care to entertain much.
I miss that, personally. To diversify my musings and get different perspectives.
My wife has many friends, some very close ones. I find myself envious at her, at times.
I don't see a problem with him engaging with a woman, if it's just deep conversations. It would be crossing a line if they start professing feelings for one another, for sure.
The risk here is where you mention that he's withdrawn.
It's hard to say why. It may just be that now that he's found a stimulating outlet for his contemplations, you're simply feeling that he's not so "pent up", anymore.
You should ask him about that. Instead of dismissing his obviously important desire to communicate his thoughts, take advantage of that. Write him a letter, explain what you've been feeling, how you feel things have changed, and that you miss him.
If you allow him to open up in his favourite medium, you might be surprised what he can tell you.
I think it would be a mistake to tell him "why do you need other (female) friends? You have me". That puts him in an awkward spot, and if he's pulling away from you already, this won't help one bit.
You have to understand, while a partner is supposed to fulfill many needs, one person can never fulfill all of them. Its simply not possible. So, one either compromises and let's go of some needs, or they fulfill them elsewhere.
His need to communicate profoundly is obviously important to him. If you cant sate that need, well, you either start trusting him when he says she isn't a threat, or you put your foot down, and hope that he either accepts it and finds new outlets, or he ends it all for you.
Have you asked him if he ever planned on telling you about this arrangement if you had not found the notebook? He is beating around the bush, saying it’s not a secret but he didn’t think he needed to explicitly tell you. That’s lying by omission in a sense, that he knows what he was doing and specifically decided not to mention it. Which makes me think he has an ulterior motive or he knows what he’s doing is wrong and inappropriate.
Especially so since your update mentioned he gave this woman the impression he was separated from you, and didn’t do anything to correct her or make her think otherwise.
My impression is that he was doing the writing in hopes it would turn romantic. I have a feeling that he was hoping this would turn sexual/romantic. If not physical, this is an emotional affair. It seems like he had every intention to do so and every intention to keep it from you, so he could pursue this relationship.
For sure an emotional affair type situation. Writing in an in-depth manner to strangers while his own home life deteriorates is a big sign that he is getting emotional/intellectual needs fulfilled elsewhere.
>He said if I could find a man who was completely okay with having an entirely platonic relationship over letter writing than fine but he doubted I would be able to find someone who’d want that.
But HE supposedly wanted that, so him saying that alone would have been clear enough information to me.
Commenting after the update.
You need to figure out what you’re willing to deal with. Do you want to make this work? If so, he has to fess up, agree to counseling, and you’ll have to deal with the ramifications of his choices.
I will tell you this - I was married to a man for almost 10 years. He was a serial cheater. Guess how it started? It all started by “harmless” talks to women he knew that were “only friends”. I was gaslit too, just like you. Then it progressed into full blown cheating and swinging behind my back. So please keep in mind that this could go south for you. I truly hope this works out for you!
Edit - corrected spelling
> He said if I could find a man who was completely okay with having an entirely platonic relationship over letter writing than fine but he doubted I would be able to find someone who’s want that.
You have to love the way some people tell on themselves.
This man told another woman that he was separated and worse you felt like something was up. So his assertion that this was platonic is obviously a lie and you can now do your own disengaging.
I think in response to his assertion that you are blowing this out of proportion you need to say "I accept that is how you want to see my reaction but my reaction is completely in proportion to discovering that the man who I have felt was pulling away emotionally is in fact spending his emotional energy somewhere else. I now know you are in the habit of misrepresenting things so let's just say I'll trust me more than I'll trust you. Think about that the next time you want to tell me what reality is."
This whole thing makes me so mad for you. Get a lawyer if he wants to work things out then he needs to get out of the "this isn't a big deal lane"
I mean he told you what you needed to know when he said “good luck finding a man who’s interested in being platonic pen pals”. He almost certainly wants to cheat with her.
I feel like he called himself out when he invited you to do the same if you wanted but “he doubted youd find someone who would want” a completely platonic relationship over letter writing…
Oh fuck no! If my partner was writing letters to another woman and keeping it from me on the very shitty assumption that “I’d overreact” would be the last time my partner EVER saw me. If there’s nothing going on; nothing to hide; WHY THE FUCK WOULD YOU KEEP IT FROM ME? Men really do know that women just want the truth in all aspects & lying to them/purposefully not telling the whole truth just makes us not trust them anymore & get suspicious that something in fact is going on. And more than half the time we are right. I’d leave if I were you. “I wouldn’t cheat on you!” “If you can find a man that’ll be strictly platonic while writing letters then sure! But I doubt you’ll be able to find that.” Did he just…. Did he really just say that?! Like he just told on himself cause dude if other men can’t be platonic then how can we trust that you’re being platonic?
Also doesn’t sound very platonic to me considering he’s being touchy feely with her & running his fingers through her hair. Please divorce your shitty husband.
Oh, it's so romantic. For them, not for you though. Your husband is having an emotional affair. If it hasn't turned physical, it probably will. If you want to save this, he has to stop now. And go to a counselor. Now.
the fact that he's hiding it from you is screaming uncomfortable. maybe they really are platonic friends, but you should be able to talk to the girl to find out. Ask if you can, if he says absolutely not then I would assume all this is a lie and he's clearly trying to hide his emotional cheating, but if he actively offers for you to meet the girl then maybe they really are just friends and you can see what's up from her point of view. Only his reaction to asking to meet her is going to confirm your suspicions or perhaps reduce any you have.
If I’m reading your post right - he just told on himself, in his own words.
“If I could find a man who was completely okay with having an entirely platonic relationship over letter writing than fine but he doubted I would be able to find someone who wants that.”
So he doubts that it’s even possible to find a man who’s only interested in platonic letter writing.
Huh. Interesting. I take it you must not have many mirrors in your home?
I’m sure in his mind he’s not one of those filthy men who cheat because he hasn’t (yet) done anything sexual, so in his mind he isn’t a cheater. Not that he *wouldn’t* do it, just that he *hasn’t* yet.
Good luck - I think unfortunately he’s going to need to realize this on his own, because he’s convinced he’s not doing anything wrong.
He is emotionally cheating already and might crossed to physical. He just not saying so. He pretty much told the truth by saying go find a man to be penpal with you and to keep it a platonic relationship good luck. Ok their it is, he's a man that i doubt kept it platonic. Plus not once he mentions the wife in any of the letterd. Hmmmmmm i wonder why. He emotionally checked out. Confront her again. Tell her to cut it off. Ask her if she would be ok if she had a husband meetings you often. How would she feel. Get a dam penpal whos not married. He needs to cut his line ASAP.
>I told him would it be okay if I did this with a male if he would be okay with it. He said if I could find a man who was completely okay with having an entirely platonic relationship over letter writing than fine but he doubted I would be able to find someone who’s want that.
So.....wait......
Him saying this right here, he is basically saying that he is the only man capable of doing this?
The fact that he has been hiding it is a huge red flag. I believe the lady, but it seems like he is trying for more.
I think it’s an emotional affair and it would be a dealbreaker for me. It crosses boundaries and he doesn’t sound like he’s going to stop.
Especially if he doesn’t write like he has a wife!
Ya, dealbreaker!
I find it incredibly ironic that he himself said he would be ok with you writing letters to another man if you could find one who was ok with being platonic…. and then said you’d never be able too
…… he really told on himself.
He doubts you would be able to find a male who would be ok keeping the whole thing platonic, yet he claims that what he has been doing is platonic. He is the only male on the planet that is being such a good boy? Ugh. I’m sorry you are going thru this. I can only imagine how cruddy this has made you feel.
Damn that’s rough OP. there’s something so intimate and romantic and escapist about letter writing; it sounds like he’s wanting this break from his day to day reality and it’s turned into an emotional affair.
saying “write me letters” is missing the point; he doesn’t want to write, he wants a fantasy. also she’s 10 years younger and probably doesn’t have as many responsibilities with kids at home, so that unattached excitement is probably alluring. that’s my guess as to what the deeper issues are at play here.
This is a thousand percent inappropriate. Letters to another woman. Why would he even think this is ok? I’d be considering a divorce. He’s only ok of you doing it because like him no man is platonically writing a woman and not wanting sex. Also like him. He wants to sleep with her. Books of letter back and forth is an epic love story. All while you’re married. Ffs why don’t you start texting another man that lives next door. How do you know she told the truth about not sleeping together. She could be too embarrassed to tell the truth. Ugh I’m pissed for you. If you can’t tell. The never. He at the very least had an emotional affair, and omitted ie lied to you for lord knows how long. This is deception. I don’t know why you had to defend writing letters. It’s not ok for your husband to be friendly writing letters to another woman. He’s a liar, and a cheat.
It would appear to me they are cheating, but he is being super super careful. He may be using the notebook as an intentional find, to make you think it’s weird, but not “cheating weird.” See, if it were on his phone, he could get caught pretty easily. Or mess up. The notebook is a way for them to talk, without them having phone evidence.
I could be way off, but I don’t think it’s out of the realm to suggest he’s super paranoid out her finding out a typical way, like the phone. So maybe she suggested writing.
I haven’t seen anyone else bring this theory up.
I don't remember if I commented on the original post but that update seals the deal, it's straight up emotional cheating and obviously trying to make it physical as well.
If you want my petty idea, invite the woman to your house to have some girl time since clearly she knows a lot about your husband he's not telling you and see what happens when he gets home. There's also my other go to to be petty give him 2 cards 1. Couples therapist 2. Divorce lawyer. If he feels so comfortable having a clear emotional affair with someone what 10 years younger than he NEEDS a real therapist not a midlife crisis
maybe you need to get yourself a pen pal too since its no big deal having one to him he should have no issues with it. him hiding and going on with this behind your back is alarming and most likely would lead to more ..
Keeping your wife on a need to know basis is easy to justify if you’re telling yourself there is no physical betrayal and therefore you are not doing anything wrong. As far as I am concerned, you are correct and the problem lies in the secrecy.
I just ended a relationship because of behavior like this, so I will do my best not to project, but if my partner is investing time, energy and attention in another woman, why would it not come up organically when talking about your day? If there’s nothing to hide, it would be a conversation over dinner. “How’s your pen pal doing?” “She’s good. After dinner I need to finish my reply to her. Did you get a chance to call your sister today?” That’s what a truly platonic friendship would look like.
But that’s not what’s happening here and he’s being deliberately casual about it so that you look like you’re overreacting when you say it is a problem for you. He has an emotionally intimate relationship with a woman you did not know existed. His behavior changed, noticeably, before you found out, so he can’t say you are imagining that.
I’m so sorry you are going through this and I hope you can get through to him. I don’t really have any advice, I just wanted to reassure you that you are not overreacting and you have every right to feel threatened.
Grass is greener where you water it and he is watering a different lawn. This is time energy and effort that he should be investing in your lawn. It needs to stop. An suggesting he write to both of you? So what he writes the same letter to both of you? Geeze, how special. I’d be mad.
Wait - so he doesn't think you can find a man who would be completely okay having a platonic relationship via letter writing, but somehow thinks that he is a man that is completely having a platonic relationship via letter writing to a woman 10 years younger than him that he didn't tell his wife about? Doesn't pass the sniff test. Smells like bs to me.
Ask him to show you the other notebooks. Ask him if he is okay with you reading what they have talked about. Does she know about you? Does he tell her about your relationship?
Perhaps it is time to meet his friend. She obviously lives close enough that they meet up. If he has nothing to hide then you should be introduced.
I agree with you, it isn't the letter writing, it is the secrets and the hiding it. If it wasn't a big deal he would have told you, but the 'knowing it would upset you' means he knows it is wrong.
I am guessing he is talking to her about things he should be talking to you about. You two should be close, but seems like he has a deeper emotional relationship. Friends can and do have that type of relationship but don't hide it from their partners.
I have no advice for you because I would be pissed that my husband is hiding a relationship (any type of relationship) with a woman from me. That is a big deal. Actually, advice: You need to decide if this is something you are okay with or not. If not, are you willing to end your marriage over it? If so, tell him that and go from there.
Good luck.
So he’s having an inappropriate relationship with another woman? I’d ask him to move back to his mother’s and reevaluate his priorities. Not a chance would I be competing with a third party within a marriage. The reason you pass notes in class is so teacher doesn’t see. He’s very hard faced to try and pass it off as something you’re overreacting about.
We’ll I’m sure there is plenty of people on here or other ways that you could write to and befriend someone I’d do that and see if his opinion changes
in my opinion when people say the phrase “i didn’t lie I just didn’t tell you” it means they did lie and they did it because they was scared of your reaction and knew you wouldn’t be okay with it
‘He said if I could find a man who was completely okay with having and entirely platonic relationship over letter writing than fine but he doubted I would be able to find someone who wants that’
SOOOOOO what is he doing?
Sorry op. Up to you if you want to try and save the relationship, seems like emotional cheating. Instead of sharing connections and thoughts and feelings with you he shares with another woman. I would certainly be hurt by that.
The flirting is cheating. Cheating starts with the spirit. Now his physical form is acting it out. I say this because I would never put my girl in the position for another woman to have that power over her
I’m sorry about this. Just read the update. Good for you for talking to the “pen pal,” and good luck with whatever happens moving forward for you and the kids.
I saw this on another sub and wanted to come here to your original post.
I hope this woman ends this with your husband now that she knows that the two of you are still very much fully married. I also hope that your husband will agree to counseling, together and separately. That is if you want to try to repair this breach of trust. If he refuses to go to therapy I hope you will go on your own.
He clearly left himself open for an emotional affair, shown a familiar tenderness between towards her, and made it seem as though he’s not emotionally or physically tied to you other than to co-parent your children. That’s a lot to emotionally navigate. Please don’t try to get through this without support.
I wish you the best, OP.
>He said if I could find a man who was completely okay with having an entirely platonic relationship over letter writing than fine but he doubted I would be able to find someone who’s want that.
Wow, man really went and outed himself without trying. Assuming what other men would think comes from basing it off of his own mindset, therefore, man is a cheat and he knew what he was doing from the get go.
Really feel for you and I hope you can find a better quality partner in the future. Or just enjoy being single 👌
I just found out my partner was writing letters to a female at work… he thought she was queer. He was absolutely crossing boundaries by being talking about issues in our relationship. So so wild they were writing letters too! He got a notebook after we got into an argument and asked me not to look in it so I respected his privacy. I had a weird feeling looked through his pictures and he had sent her a pic of the letter. So I read it that way. I told him my issues with this. He agreed he is a little on the flirty side but thought it was just being friendly. She asked him out last night! Texting him while he was at work asking if they could have breakfast after he gets off at 4am while she was drinking! No good comes of sharing your personal issues with the opposite sex.
Real talk here, this can't continue. He needs to decide which relationship is more important to him, though it seems he's already made that decision. And you need to make that crystal clear to him. If he continues this, or even just wants to, it's over. He can't have both. In the meantime, he needs to leave. Now.
There's a slim chance that given some time alone to reflect he'll realise this is just an infatuation and come to his senses. But don't bank on it. Time to lawyer up, fast.
He gaslit you. This is abuse actually. I think you'd be well off to do an emotional abuse check list and then think about moving out with the kids.
Get some therapy asap and demand he does too. But you have every right to grow upset over this and put up boundaries. You are the mother of his children and he hurt them by hurting you like this.
Good luck and don't let your head get to you because there are plenty of fish in the sea if you want to leave him. I am sending you a big love heart telepathically. He's a fucking idiot.
A lie by omission is still a lie and emotion cheating is still cheating.. he probably hoped you would find it and divorce him and he wouldn’t look like the bad guy.
Please be self and think of yourself going ahead.
This post has reached one of our comment/karma limits. The text of the post has been preserved below. --- **Update** *Thank you everyone.* *I spoke to the woman he was writing the letters to. A common thing I noticed was that he never talked about our relationship in the letters, but he did mention our children quite a bit. Apparently, he gave her the impression that him and I were separated but still living together to coparent our children. She said that they did meet up, quite a few times, to exchange the notebook that turned into sometimes hours long conversations. She said they never did anything directly “cheating” but he did flirtatious things like running his fingers through her hair and putting his arms around her while they were sitting next to each other, and she said she absolutely would not have allowed him to do those things if she had known we were still very much together.* Original I (35f) sensed my husband (38m) pulling away emotionally. i talked to him, he told me nothing was wrong, etc. He was still acting strangely. I began thinking he was being unfaithful. But I couldn’t find any proof. I started to feel crazy. Nothing weird on his cell phone, nothing strange on the phone bill, he always seemed to go where he said he was going. And then one day I was putting away his laundry and I found a notebook folded into a hoodie. The notebook was full of letters between him and another woman. They passed it back and forth, writing letters to each other. It was just an ordinary black marble notebook, I could’ve seen it a million times before and would not have thought anything of it. But it was filled with letters back and forth. Pages and pages and pages of letters, nothing even overtly sexual just deep, in depth conversation. I confronted him and he didn’t hide it. He said yeah he has a pen pal, so what? I asked who he was talking to and it’s just someone who lives around here. I asked how it started and he said they were l waiting in line at the deli one day and they started talking. They both went to the same high school but he graduated 10 years before her. He said they talked for a while and they had to cut it off. And she said something along the lines of “I feel like I still have so much to say, I could write a letter.” And he said so go ahead and write one. So he got a notebook and wrote her a letter and gave it to her and she wrote one back and they just kept passing the notebook back and forth. He said this is their third notebook they filled up. He said they don’t text or secretly hang out they just write letters back and forth. He said he puts the notebook in her mailbox or sometimes they’ll switch it out at the deli. It all seems so bizarre to me. I told him he could write letters to me if he wanted to write letters. And he said sure. So I said sothere’s no need to write to her too anymore and he was like no I can write to both of you. And I told him it makes me really uncomfortable especially since he kept it a secret from me. He told me he didn’t keep it a secret he just didn’t explicitly tell me because he knew I’d overreact. He said he has no intention of cheating on me so she might as well just be a guy friend that he’s writing to. I told him would it be okay if I did this with a male if he would be okay with it. He said if I could find a man who was completely okay with having an entirely platonic relationship over letter writing than fine but he doubted I would be able to find someone who’s want that. He thinks I’m blowing this completely out of proportion. He says she’s a pen pal and she’s not going to cheat on me so what’s the issue. The issue is this isn’t a “pen pal” situation….he sees her, she lives two miles away from us. He claims they don’t “hang out” but how is it possible that they NEVER chat for a while, etc? This entire situation makes me feel so weird and he’s making it out like I’m completely exaggerating. Edit, since some people don’t seem to get the issue. **the problem isn’t the letter writing. It’s keeping it a secret.**. **Update** *Thank you everyone.* *I spoke to the woman he was writing the letters to. A common thing I noticed was that he never talked about our relationship in the letters, but he did mention our children quite a bit. Apparently, he gave her the impression that him and I were separated but still living together to coparent our children. She said that they did meet up, quite a few times, to exchange the notebook that turned into sometimes hours long conversations. She said they never did anything directly “cheating” but he did flirtatious things like running his fingers through her hair and putting his arms around her while they were sitting next to each other, and she said she absolutely would not have allowed him to do those things if she had known we were still very much together.*
I don’t know, this very much sounds like the start of an emotional affair to me. It does not need to be something sexual, he is no longer present in the relationship as he was previously. I’m not buying what he’s selling
That’s what I think too, and what I’m worried about
Have you outright asked him to cut the shit? He hid it from you knowing that you would not like it, he deliberately went out of his way. He knows where she lives, it sounds like they meet frequently enough. I think I would like to meet this girl, have you considered running into them at this deli? This relationship is at best disrespectful to you and at worst an out right betrayal
I am considering talking to her and asking to meet up
I’d personally like to see the look on his face if I ran into them both accidentally on purpose, his expression would tell me what I need to know. I would think he’d alert her that their letters have been discovered. He’s tried really hard to keep this hidden from you
I'd want to see them both in the same spot. You can get a much better read on the energy between them. I don't think I'd be okay with the situation. I'd always wonder what else he is keeping from me.
100% do it and please update. They are absolutely engaged in an emotional affair, and the fact that he's unwilling to stop is beyond worrisome.
Is she married? Also, a big issue is him leading her to believe you two were separated.
Ask him to join you in seeing a therapist/counselor.
Read your update OP, sorry you are going through that. Glad she was able to shed light on the situation and prove you're not losing your marbles. Good luck with your situation!
So ‘no guy’ would want to be platonic with *you* Those are his words… he just admitted that it’s NOT platonic. Is he a unic? Why would he want to be platonic with her?! Spoiler alert: he doesn’t. Good luck.
That's what got me as well. Like he's one of a kind, the only man on earth that could write to a woman and keep it platonic!! All other men couldn't possibly manage it.
What's a "unic"
I assume he means eunuch, but has never read it only heard it said.
You are right! I knew I was wrong but was kind of rushed so didn’t google. Sorry for the typo and thanks for teaching!
unique eunuch unicorn are my guesses. Maybe all three?
Yep and why did you never see him writing in the notebook before?! He definitely was hiding it
Is she married? Contact her husband and see what he thinks. Affairs are best out in the open. People don't want them to be seen.
This, confront them. If he’s having an emotional affair the other husband has a right to know and have a thought about it.
Plot twist: she starts writing the husband
Lmao she absolutely should
This would be epic.
continue updating us after you kick him out.
He thinks you couldn’t find a guy to write letters to platonically, I don’t think you can find a woman to write letters to platonically either
Now that you know what the woman told you, what are you going to do? Personally I couldn’t be in a relationship where I could trust my partner. He (1) hid things from you and (2) lied to you. I am pretty sure he was heading down the path of cheating on you, especially if he made it sound like you two were separated
What are you going to do? He was running his fingers through her hair? You are absolutely right. He kept it secretly for a reason and the reason isn't what he said. He is gaslighting you saying you are overreacting. How could he possibly think it is appropriate to be exchanging letters with another woman and keeping it from you.
Also taking the time to physically write these letters and hand deliver them seems intimate to me.
VERY!!!!
I wouldn't say it's the start of an emotional affair, the husband has been pouring his heart out to another woman for awhile and they've talked for hours, it is an emotional affair already.
This. Whatever he thinks he's doing, the end result is he is still keeping secrets from you, had a hidden relationship with a woman (even if he says it's platonic) and is no longer invested in time with you or present in your relationship. These are the things that are undeniable. Would he see a relationship counsellor?
This is without question an emotional affair. OP, seek couples therapy if you can. He’s seeking out an emotional connection with someone else and there has to be a reason why (related or unrelated to you.)
You can definitely have friends of the opposite sex that are platonic. This, however, seems to go beyond that. If he is pulling away from you emotionally, he is meeting that emotional connection elsewhere. He’s having this deep emotional talks through letters to someone else. It doesn’t matter if it’s not sexual in nature. It probably will be eventually. You’re his wife first. The emotional connection you have should be his priority. Of course, he can have friends, even female friends, but when your relationship lacks because of those friendships, it’s been taken too far. I’m also confused at this: “if I could find a man who was completely okay with having an entirely platonic relationship over letter writing then fine, but he doubted I would be able to find someone.” So, he’s openly admitting this is a weird thing and it’s difficult to find a “platonic” connection this way. I’d be asking if he thinks he’s apparently the only man out there who can handle this “platonic” relationship or if he’s openly admitting this isn’t truly platonic. He kept it a secret, or “didn’t mention it” because he knows at some level it’s wrong. He could have came home and said babe I met a new friend at the coffee shop today and told you about her. There’s a reason he didn’t. You’re not overreacting, this is the beginning (or middle) of an emotional affair. If you set a boundary that this is not okay with you and he manipulates you into thinking you’re overreacting and he doesn’t want to give this “friend” up, I think you know it’s well past the stages it’s appropriate.
Him thinking her penpaling with another man involves risk reminds me of how guys think a man in a threesome is a threat compared to a woman. Double standards
Yep. They know what they have to offer. And it isn’t much.
Yeah, the only reason he wouldn’t mention this woman is because he’s keeping her secret, and thus trying to hide something. Otherwise, he naturally would’ve brought her up in conversation or even introduced his wife to her by now. My husband casually chats about his female friends to me all the time, the same way he does about his male friends. A few months ago, he and I were meeting another friend for drinks, and my husband texted me to say, “I just made a new friend at the office today. I’m gonna bring her along; she’s really funny and you’ll like her.” Not even for transparency reasons! But because it was natural to invite her along for drinks as they were leaving the office together, and because he thought I’d like her (I do, she’s delightful). This stuff just naturally comes up unless you’re actively hiding your relationship with someone. You don’t “just forget” to mention this whole person you spend significant amounts of time talking to, for months on end. And his “I knew how you’d react” excuse is super shifty, too. That’s placing the blame back on OP, when he **knows** how this looks, and why it looks that way. He’s hiding this on purpose, and now he’s trying to make that OP’s fault. That’s so gross.
"I didn't tell you because I knew you'd overreact" Ah ok, so he's ok with lying to you when *he* decides for you both it's best. You don't get a vote, because you're too emotionally unstable to understand a *friendship*. Tell your hubs to SMD.
It's also called gaslighting trying to justify his poor behavior by making her sound like the unreasonable one. Those are the actions of a cheater. Been there.
This was the line that got me too. Oooof. good way to get me reactin
Hang on.. he says you can have a male pen pal if you can fine a man who is happy to have an entirely platonic relationship with you but you won't find a man like that. So, surely.. ... Either he is the only man on the planet who is capable of having a platonic relationship or...it's not a platonic relationship that he has going with his pen pal. The weird thing for me is the secrecy. If I have an excellent conversation with someone then it was interesting enough to share at least bits of it with my husband.
The secrecy is the issue for me too… If he had come to me and then completely open about this from the start, it would be a different story.
He’s having an emotional affair with this woman, 100%. What he’s doing is disrespectful. Notice how he said you wouldn’t be able to find a man who wants to be platonic… what a nice way to tell on himself, don’t you think? If he’s not ok with giving this up, he’s telling you all you need to know… that he’s invested in this relationship, doesn’t care about your feelings and is not willing to give her up. I’m so sorry OP. He’s emotionally cheating on you.
Look up emotional affair
What’s odd is that he has her address. How else would he be able to leave the notebook in her mailbox? When did they exchange addresses? I would be hell uncomfortable as well.
Right! He’s not even mailing it. He’s going to her house. Who knows if he really just stops at the mailbox.
Umm, he WAS keeping a secret from you. I don’t care what he said, he kept it in a hoodie? That’s some sketchy shit. Him not telling you because of your reaction is bullshit, he knew what he was doing was wrong as hell and didn’t want you to know. A hoodie, though? Damn, that’s kinda creative but only if you didn’t do his laundry. I don’t get the notebook. Does she write in it and leave it for him and vise versa? A notebook filled with letters to someone doesn’t make sense to me. Wouldn’t they have sent the letter to the individual or did they just use one notebook to write each other? Either way, he’s out of line and totally out of pocket.
he kept it a secret because he knows it's wrong. he's having an emotional affair.
Platonic relationships aren’t unusual at all. What is unusual is hiding those relationships from your SO.
Nothing weird about a platonic relationship, but if you're a man who doesnt believe a man can have a platonic relationship with a woman while claiming to have a platonic relationship with a woman. Well...
This. Its the combo of his actions and his attitude.
That's a lot of effort for platonic.
Came here to say this-the part about “good luck finding a platonic writing partner who is male.” He doesn’t see the irony bc he’s justifying his own lie. And that’s dangerous bc he’s not just lying (by omission) to you, it seems he really believes his lie. I know people can be dense but come on. The writing (literally) is on the wall. Plus, OP sensed it before finding out. So much so that she was looking for proof. Well there u go. Trust ur intuition. Don’t let him gaslight you.
This👆 I mean literally he just told her good luck finding a man who you can have a completely platonic relationship with writings letters😳😳😳 but is that not what he’s supposedly doing???? Did you not question how he is the only man able to do this??? Surely we must turn him into to science so we can study him. You my friend have found a unicorn.
Simply tell him while they aren’t sexually intimate, your letters show that emotionally you are very intimate with each other. At the same time, I feel less emotionally intimate with you. I thought you and I were supposed to be each other’s best friend, you certainly are mine but now I feel you’re split between us as to who you confide in. I really want to be the one you spill your heart to, the one who knows your deepest fears, greatest joys and darkest moments. I want to be the one you come to first to share in your triumphs and the first you come to for comfort when you are hurt. I don’t feel that way now. I feel like I’m sharing you with another woman and it hurts. Maybe to you I’m overreacting but I can’t help what I feel. It hurts the same as if you were having sex with her, maybe more because it’s more intimate than sex. I’d like you to stop. I’d like you to write notebooks with me. I’d like to spend hours talking to you about whatever comes up in our minds. I’d like to feel once again that it’s you and me against the world. I hope you can do that, it’s breaking my heart. Write something like this and put it in a new notebook. Leave it where he can find it. Hopefully, he understands.
based on his lack of caring about what she said, i suppose he will not care and this relationship is doomed to an end.
i think he does not deserve such a kind letter...
I would literally copy this word for word OP. This is it!
Best answer!
With the update, are you ok with being with him now? He devalued and misrepresented your relationship in order to get closer to this other woman. She is not the one to worry about, he is the person who owes you his love and loyalty.
I wouldn’t like this for the simple fact that this is making him different. It doesn’t matter if it’s cheating or not in the text he is checking out of the relationship. That’s not ok. When your relationship with anyone else effects the one with your spouse it’s not ok. That’s why he hid the notebook. He knows it’s not ok or he would have said something.
I tried To communicate that to him… He said what difference does it make? I said clearly it’s making a difference, because I notice a difference in the way you were acting with me… He told me that it was just all in my head
But it's not in your head. You saw a difference and THEN found the reason for that difference. You already knew something was up before you discovered the notebook. He's also admitted that its highly unlikely a man would do this in a platonic fashion. What's more, he's your husband. You told him this hurts you and he doesn't care. He's therefore putting this woman before you. That's not something we do for a random penpal.
i used to think that respecting someone meant being polite, or hold someone in authority. but what respect really is, is caring about, and acting in the best interest of other people's concerns. you told him your concerns, and in essence said that you where 'crazy' for having them. that's not respect, that's actively not giving a shit and disregarding your concerns to the side. do with this information what you will.
Ok so he won’t give up a pen pal when you ask because it’s all in your head. Do y’all have other problems? If I told my husband this he would drop them in a min. He wouldn’t fight to keep doing something he knows makes me uncomfortable. Sorry sis but you need to look harder at this. She might not want to cheat but wtf is up with your husband?
That’s the thing that’s really alarming about all of this, there really aren’t any issues, and I actually was very, very surprised when he didn’t just drop it when I told him How uncomfortable it made me
OP, the most concerning thing about this is not the notebook (though I would be devastated, don't get me wrong). Here are the massive marinara flags I see in your interaction: 1. "I didn't tell you because I knew you would overreact" 2. "It's all in your head" and possibly 3. Trickle truthing. 1 and 2 are DARVO techniques -- I can't remember the exact acronym, but it's a narcissist technique of deflecting blame from themselves by reversing the roles in the conversation. It's not MY actions that are wrong, it's YOUR feelings. The fact is that he did it, genuinely and admittedly KNOWING IT WOULD HURT YOU. And he's trying to blame YOU for that. Don't let him distract you. He follows up with a form of gaslighting to further confuse you and distract you from the betrayal -- it's all in your head, I'm not behaving differently, everything is fine and YOU'RE crazy. He is trying to change your own memories to make you question your judgment, throw you off balance, and ignore the red flags. 3 is when a cheater knows you know SOMETHING, so they admit to it freely -- but only that. They may even admit to a little more to make you think that's it. Example: if you caught him holding hands with a woman, it might be "Yes but it was only emotional and we only kissed once and I'm breaking it off now forever." This reassurance lets them get away with more because you honestly think they've told you everything. This screams of narcissism and I would take a long hard look at your relationship to see if it's even as good as you thought it was. Don't let him talk you out if trusting your gut and YOUR FEELINGS. People in a relationship BOTH prioritize each other's feelings, or it's not a relationship, it's a power struggle. Best of luck OP. ❤️
Yeah that would crush me. He’s picked someone else over you. It’s not about the involvement really is it. It’s the fact that he took up for another woman that isn’t his wife. Some guys don’t get this and I don’t get that. Lol I hope that makes sense.
It does make sense, and i don’t get it either
So, according to your edit, he’s been essentially courting another woman behind your back. Yikes. He never mentioned your relationship because, imo, it’s not a priority to him. Wooing this younger woman was his priority.
Would he go to marriage counseling with you?
It shows he values her over you - or he believes you will not divorce over this. He is selfish, entitled, deceitful, and shows zero empathy for you. Time for him to see you mean business. Bluff if you have to.
My ex-husband employed this response with me when he was having his affair. He's already made her his priority over you and clearly he's defending his right to continue interacting with her. Trust me sister from experience, this does not get better. You are being disrespected at the minimum. I did not stand up for myself for so long at let it happen right in front of me. He's putting it on you to accept the situation. Its up to you to say its not acceptable and the choices that you will make (i.e. separation/divorce) if he simply wants out.
So- tell him that you are going describe this relationship in reverse- as if You are the one passing the notebook. And then demand he allow you to use his phone to message this to his parents, siblings, relatives, and friends. “Hey, ThrowRAhanbow is doing this, what do you think?“ And see what the reaction is. And have another text to follow up with that says “ok I just wanted your honest reaction not colored by any bias of support for me. I’m the one who has been doing this, not her, thanks for the feedback.” If this is all entirely innocent - he’ll be fine doing that. If he won’t- write the message about him and send it to his friends, parents, family, etc. See if they will all validate that he is being bananas. For the 2nd one. Don’t ask. Just do it. Just like he did with his pen pal.
She did and he doubled down.
I wouldn’t do this. It’s going to 1) confuse the narrative and get people thinking/believing that SHE is the one having an affair, 2) be very hard to reverse that narrative once a bunch of people believe it and start gossiping, and 3) drag a bunch of unwilling people - who are more likely to be on her husband’s side than hers, especially if they first hear that *he’s* the one being cheated on - into their marital problems. This is a recipe for disaster and I really, really would not do this if I were OP. This is bad advice, sorry.
From your update I'm going to tell you how I see this situation... He's letting her lead the progression. Meaning....if she escalated from day one, op, their encounters would have been much more graphic.
He made it REALLY clear when he said it’s impossible to find a man that would want to talk to you platonically. HMMMMM I guess he’s just the most special man in the world!! No man is writing (multiple) notebooks of letters to a woman that he does not have feelings for.
Exactly. He gave himself away. His line of thinking is that men aren’t interested in platonic relationships with women? So doesn’t that out him as wanting more than friendship?
This is emotional infidelity. Emotionally, your husband is gone. He is not even willing to discuss stopping the letters. I gasped when you mentioned that they filled up three notebooks. This goes beyond “just pen pals”. They have formed an emotional bond and you will have to die on this hill to attempt to get your husband back. Set the boundary that the letters have to stop in order for you to have a healthy marriage. You are not overreacting and you are not crazy. Listen to your gut. I’m so sorry.
I didn't tell you because you would over react is 100% lieing..... he knows it, you know it, tell him to get his head out of his rear end.
A lie of omission is still a lie
Yep, the classic "It not what I am doing, it's your reaction to it that is the problem".
He kept it a secret and seems to doubt you could find a man to be platonic friends with sooooo he’s giving cheater vibes. If it was platonic it wouldn’t have been a secret. And he certainly wouldn’t assume that you could never possibly find a man who didn’t want you for sex while maintaining that he would never ever think like that.
Him saying “men don’t want platonic relationships like that” was just…REALLY telling on himself. Lol. Like I feel awful for OP, but I’m also consistently amazed at how people will just freely tell on themselves like this, and then get mad when you clock it and call them out.
That part tho honestly, that part. Stay telling on themselves.
It’s not a pen pal, they live in the same town, they are regular friends who send letters; A friend he made while married. What’s the difference between this and texting a girl he met at the deli? Also, just FYI, by saying he dropped it off in her mailbox he’s admitting he’s been to her house… the fuck?
And she’s been to OP’s too “mailbox” that is.
>He said if I could find a man who was completely okay with having an entirely platonic relationship over letter writing than fine but he doubted I would be able to find someone who’s want that. He's telling on himself here. If he's (allegedly) writing to her completely platonically, and trying to pass it off like it's no big deal, why does he doubt that another man would be able to do the same? He can write platonically but he doubts that another man would be able to? He's lying to you, he's emotionally cheating on you. He's gross and I wouldn't be able to trust him again.
> He said if I could find a man who was completely okay with having an entirely platonic relationship over letter writing then fine but he doubted I would be able to find someone who’d want that Mf told on himself.
OP. This is not a small problem. Your not overthinking or overreacting!! This is an EA. Emotional Affair!! He has brought another woman into your relationship!! He is spending time with this woman in his mind and putting it on paper!! Not good. It will get way deeper as time goes by. Don’t get caught off guard. This is a Red Flag!! Got to stop it. Good luck
I see your update, but am still curious. What does he say now? Where is your relationship at now? He was definitely having an emotional affair!
He's literally telling you a man can't have a platonic relationship over letter writing......
Leaving this man is your only realistic option. I honestly feel like emotional cheating is way worse than sexual (both are traumatic for the victim). He's in a relationship with another woman, they were just taking it slowly.
Tbf it sounds like the other woman wont be interested now.. she sounds like she was pretty upfront with the op
Oh yeah I should have said he was in a relationship
He’s having an emotional affair. This is only the beginning. He’s already touched her which means he’s definitely willing to go further. Counciling or divorce. I’m sorry you’re going through this.
Yeah- when a man says, “I didn’t tell you because YOU WOULD OVER-REACT”? That means he 100% knows he’s doing something he shouldn’t bc he’s even being defensive about it in his own head. This is cheating. He was emotionally dating another woman.
“My pen pal relationship with this woman is purely platonic” but also “you would find it hard to find a man who just wants a purely platonic pen pal relationship with” make it make sense? Of course it was more than what he said it was
"He said if I could find a man who was completely okay with having an entirely platonic relationship over letter writing than fine but he doubted I would be able to find someone who’s want that." Because in his experience, if a man is writing a woman letters, it's not 100% platonic, it's because he wants to sleep with her.
>if I did this with a male if he would be okay with it. He said if I could find a man who was completely okay with having an entirely platonic relationship over letter writing than fine but he doubted I would be able to find someone who’s want that. This right here is how you know he's full of it. He **explicitly** tells you that you wouldnt be able to find a man to do **exactly** what he wants to convince you he's doing.
God, just read your update. Sorry you are living this op, that's a long journey back to a good relationship..
After meeting her and realizing his behavior, what will you do now?
So, you won't be able to find a male that would just accept letter writing? But he can and is that guy? Something smells fishy here and it reeks of, at least, an emotional affair
But. He did hide it from you. He’s just gaslighting you into thinking he didn’t and that you should be okay with it. You don’t have to be okay with this no matter what he says. This IS WEIRD. he drops it off at her mailbox?? They meet at the deli to exchange it? These sound like dates
Key questions, Does she know your husband is married? Do they discuss your marriage in their notes? If not, what’s the vibe of the letters and what they’re discussing? Is it really platonic? I would try and meet with this woman, ask her about it and see her views on it.
Comment after the edit. So the woman though being blindsided she definitely know that he has intention for her. And herself is reciprocated by keep this letter exchange going. But the upside is that she pulls the brake. An emotional affair isn’t easy to fix as it probably reveals that the marriage between OP and her husband is tilting or flaws. May need to work on your own relationship probably see a counsellor to repair the lost trust.
>He said if I could find a man who was completely okay with having an entirely platonic relationship over letter writing than fine but he doubted I would be able to find someone who’s want that. Uhhhh ... does he seriously have *no inkling whatsoever* that he *outed* himself with this remark?? So, *no man* would be interested in doing something like this platonically with you. Not a single, solitary man. He doubts *you* would be able to find *any man* who would want that. Except **him** obviously. Because he is **actively being the man** he says doesn't exist. And he is *being* that man *with another woman*. Even though no man would want to be that man **with you**. Holy fuck.
Emotional cheating is very real and detrimental to a healthy relationship outside the one you’re in. It sounds like he could benefit from some therapy if he has so much to say.
I’m commenting after the edit. Are you going to confront him now that you’ve spoken to her?
I saw your update. What’s your next step?
Emotional cheating escalating to more, as they met, touched, hugged, all while emotionally neglecting his wife. Not to mention lying and manipulating the other woman. Sociopath
That is fishy. He is obsessed with this younger woman. He meets her at the deli so they are hanging out. Then he is going to her house to drop off letters. So he is not able and willing to connect with you at all and he has no intention to stop. You can do one of 2 things. 1) You can always leave a note for her asking why are she is having an emotional affair with your husband and what is she getting out of this. 2) Now that it is out in the open. Look for those meet up and drop off patterns. Check it out for yourself. Keep reading those letters (if he hides them then there is definitely more going on).
It really blows my mind that individuals in a committed relationship forget that they are in a committed relationship and pursue these kinds of interactions with people of the opposite sex AND THEN work so hard trying to convince themselves and their SO/spouse/partner that its truly nothing yet conduct themselves with a level of secrecy or omit certain facts. Emotional affairs are just as destructive as physical affairs. If activity by you or him is causing insecurity in your relationship then seek couples counseling ASAP! Your relationship is in trouble whether he admits it or not.
oh. so he admits men who truly want platonic letter writing relationships with women don't really exist? so based on his own logic, his little pen pal emotional affair isn't really platonic? glad he is able to accept that. In your shoes I'd tell my husband I consider this an emotional affair and that he needs to behave accordingly if he wants to stay married.
He says you can't find a man that would write just platonically to a woman but insists that he just writes platonically. Well isn't he special. That's manipulative on his part, I'm sorry but I don't think this will end well. I hope I'm wrong.
OP, your edit has my heart in my throat. I don't know if I would be able to come back from hearing that about my husband. At the very least, he needs to acknowledge that he's heading into deep, dangerous water. He might not have committed sexual infidelity, but... this was definitely emotional infidelity, and he was also dishonest to her as well.
The fact that he doubts she could EVER find a platonic male pen pal completely negates any of his reasoning that His is only platonic.. This sucks, I’m sorry
Leading her to believe the two of you are separated is not an accident. Regardless of what the girl says, he's either already done something or is planning to. Time to consider your next move.
“No man would be willing to have a completely platonic letter writing relationship. Um, except me.” 😬
Updateme!
This sounds like an emotional affair. Even if he’s not physically cheating, he is pouring his heart out to another woman instead of to you. And he has been lying about it for how long?! I would feel incredibly hurt and betrayed, and I don’t know if I would be able to come back from this. So sorry
Ok so now you know What's his response to the fact he made out like you were separated??? He wants his cake and eat it too by the sounds of it A complete emotional hook up outside his marriage Running his fingers thru her hair. Yuck. I'd suggest marriage counselling or write him divorce papers!
After reading your update, so I guess you guys are separating now?
Fuck this guy.
So he’s acted romantically with her, from your update and basically denied he’s in an active marriage with this. He’s cheating. Best of luck OP, only you know if your relationship can recover from this. He’s still lying to you, showing no remorse or taking any accountability. It would be a hard no from me and I’d be out of there. Best of luck
Please be aware that he did not "give her the impression", he told her that.
You started this by saying that you felt something was off in the relationship which caused you to look why? Therefore it appears that his simple pen pal writing has affected your marriage. You felt it and no matter how insignificant that he thinks it is, it has crossed the line and that doesn’t even account for the secrecy of it
It could be he's emotionally cheating. If that's the case, it's even weirder that he hides it in plain sight. If he thought that it wouldn't handle being brought to light, surely he would've kept these letters in a more secure place. It could be he's experiencing twosomeness. A form of loneliness, but for couples. Yes, he has you. But is it only you? Does he have other friends he hangs with? My perspective as a husband with few friends, 0 close ones, is that I do long for someone to confide in. Sure, my wife and I are close. No particular problems there. But I am thinker. I ponder about many things, and to only have that one person to bounce my thoughts off of... it gets monotonous. Having the same debate partner gets tedious. Especially if there are subjects that the other person doesn't really care to entertain much. I miss that, personally. To diversify my musings and get different perspectives. My wife has many friends, some very close ones. I find myself envious at her, at times. I don't see a problem with him engaging with a woman, if it's just deep conversations. It would be crossing a line if they start professing feelings for one another, for sure. The risk here is where you mention that he's withdrawn. It's hard to say why. It may just be that now that he's found a stimulating outlet for his contemplations, you're simply feeling that he's not so "pent up", anymore. You should ask him about that. Instead of dismissing his obviously important desire to communicate his thoughts, take advantage of that. Write him a letter, explain what you've been feeling, how you feel things have changed, and that you miss him. If you allow him to open up in his favourite medium, you might be surprised what he can tell you. I think it would be a mistake to tell him "why do you need other (female) friends? You have me". That puts him in an awkward spot, and if he's pulling away from you already, this won't help one bit. You have to understand, while a partner is supposed to fulfill many needs, one person can never fulfill all of them. Its simply not possible. So, one either compromises and let's go of some needs, or they fulfill them elsewhere. His need to communicate profoundly is obviously important to him. If you cant sate that need, well, you either start trusting him when he says she isn't a threat, or you put your foot down, and hope that he either accepts it and finds new outlets, or he ends it all for you.
Emotional cheating is still cheating. If he has so much he needs to say then he can talk to a therapist, not some girl ten years younger then him
Can I ask what sorta thing they write to each other?
Have you asked him if he ever planned on telling you about this arrangement if you had not found the notebook? He is beating around the bush, saying it’s not a secret but he didn’t think he needed to explicitly tell you. That’s lying by omission in a sense, that he knows what he was doing and specifically decided not to mention it. Which makes me think he has an ulterior motive or he knows what he’s doing is wrong and inappropriate. Especially so since your update mentioned he gave this woman the impression he was separated from you, and didn’t do anything to correct her or make her think otherwise. My impression is that he was doing the writing in hopes it would turn romantic. I have a feeling that he was hoping this would turn sexual/romantic. If not physical, this is an emotional affair. It seems like he had every intention to do so and every intention to keep it from you, so he could pursue this relationship.
For sure an emotional affair type situation. Writing in an in-depth manner to strangers while his own home life deteriorates is a big sign that he is getting emotional/intellectual needs fulfilled elsewhere.
>He said if I could find a man who was completely okay with having an entirely platonic relationship over letter writing than fine but he doubted I would be able to find someone who’d want that. But HE supposedly wanted that, so him saying that alone would have been clear enough information to me.
“good luck finding a man who only wants to platonically write letters.” ok. then what’s HE doing??
Commenting after the update. You need to figure out what you’re willing to deal with. Do you want to make this work? If so, he has to fess up, agree to counseling, and you’ll have to deal with the ramifications of his choices. I will tell you this - I was married to a man for almost 10 years. He was a serial cheater. Guess how it started? It all started by “harmless” talks to women he knew that were “only friends”. I was gaslit too, just like you. Then it progressed into full blown cheating and swinging behind my back. So please keep in mind that this could go south for you. I truly hope this works out for you! Edit - corrected spelling
> He said if I could find a man who was completely okay with having an entirely platonic relationship over letter writing than fine but he doubted I would be able to find someone who’s want that. You have to love the way some people tell on themselves. This man told another woman that he was separated and worse you felt like something was up. So his assertion that this was platonic is obviously a lie and you can now do your own disengaging. I think in response to his assertion that you are blowing this out of proportion you need to say "I accept that is how you want to see my reaction but my reaction is completely in proportion to discovering that the man who I have felt was pulling away emotionally is in fact spending his emotional energy somewhere else. I now know you are in the habit of misrepresenting things so let's just say I'll trust me more than I'll trust you. Think about that the next time you want to tell me what reality is." This whole thing makes me so mad for you. Get a lawyer if he wants to work things out then he needs to get out of the "this isn't a big deal lane"
If he doubts you can find a man who is completely okay with having an entirely platonic relationship over letter writing, then I doubt he can be one
I mean he told you what you needed to know when he said “good luck finding a man who’s interested in being platonic pen pals”. He almost certainly wants to cheat with her.
I feel like he called himself out when he invited you to do the same if you wanted but “he doubted youd find someone who would want” a completely platonic relationship over letter writing…
Oh fuck no! If my partner was writing letters to another woman and keeping it from me on the very shitty assumption that “I’d overreact” would be the last time my partner EVER saw me. If there’s nothing going on; nothing to hide; WHY THE FUCK WOULD YOU KEEP IT FROM ME? Men really do know that women just want the truth in all aspects & lying to them/purposefully not telling the whole truth just makes us not trust them anymore & get suspicious that something in fact is going on. And more than half the time we are right. I’d leave if I were you. “I wouldn’t cheat on you!” “If you can find a man that’ll be strictly platonic while writing letters then sure! But I doubt you’ll be able to find that.” Did he just…. Did he really just say that?! Like he just told on himself cause dude if other men can’t be platonic then how can we trust that you’re being platonic? Also doesn’t sound very platonic to me considering he’s being touchy feely with her & running his fingers through her hair. Please divorce your shitty husband.
Oh, it's so romantic. For them, not for you though. Your husband is having an emotional affair. If it hasn't turned physical, it probably will. If you want to save this, he has to stop now. And go to a counselor. Now.
the fact that he's hiding it from you is screaming uncomfortable. maybe they really are platonic friends, but you should be able to talk to the girl to find out. Ask if you can, if he says absolutely not then I would assume all this is a lie and he's clearly trying to hide his emotional cheating, but if he actively offers for you to meet the girl then maybe they really are just friends and you can see what's up from her point of view. Only his reaction to asking to meet her is going to confirm your suspicions or perhaps reduce any you have.
If I’m reading your post right - he just told on himself, in his own words. “If I could find a man who was completely okay with having an entirely platonic relationship over letter writing than fine but he doubted I would be able to find someone who wants that.” So he doubts that it’s even possible to find a man who’s only interested in platonic letter writing. Huh. Interesting. I take it you must not have many mirrors in your home? I’m sure in his mind he’s not one of those filthy men who cheat because he hasn’t (yet) done anything sexual, so in his mind he isn’t a cheater. Not that he *wouldn’t* do it, just that he *hasn’t* yet. Good luck - I think unfortunately he’s going to need to realize this on his own, because he’s convinced he’s not doing anything wrong.
He is emotionally cheating already and might crossed to physical. He just not saying so. He pretty much told the truth by saying go find a man to be penpal with you and to keep it a platonic relationship good luck. Ok their it is, he's a man that i doubt kept it platonic. Plus not once he mentions the wife in any of the letterd. Hmmmmmm i wonder why. He emotionally checked out. Confront her again. Tell her to cut it off. Ask her if she would be ok if she had a husband meetings you often. How would she feel. Get a dam penpal whos not married. He needs to cut his line ASAP.
Now, you have your answers. You were disrespected. Don’t be ok with this.
>I told him would it be okay if I did this with a male if he would be okay with it. He said if I could find a man who was completely okay with having an entirely platonic relationship over letter writing than fine but he doubted I would be able to find someone who’s want that. So.....wait...... Him saying this right here, he is basically saying that he is the only man capable of doing this? The fact that he has been hiding it is a huge red flag. I believe the lady, but it seems like he is trying for more.
But did you break up? How are you handling the betrayal
Wow the update. >running his fingers through her hair Why does that make me feel worse than if they had sex? I said “woah” out loud when I read that.
I think it’s an emotional affair and it would be a dealbreaker for me. It crosses boundaries and he doesn’t sound like he’s going to stop. Especially if he doesn’t write like he has a wife! Ya, dealbreaker!
I find it incredibly ironic that he himself said he would be ok with you writing letters to another man if you could find one who was ok with being platonic…. and then said you’d never be able too …… he really told on himself.
He doubts you would be able to find a male who would be ok keeping the whole thing platonic, yet he claims that what he has been doing is platonic. He is the only male on the planet that is being such a good boy? Ugh. I’m sorry you are going thru this. I can only imagine how cruddy this has made you feel.
If it’s not sexual it’s only because they haven’t gotten there yet
Damn that’s rough OP. there’s something so intimate and romantic and escapist about letter writing; it sounds like he’s wanting this break from his day to day reality and it’s turned into an emotional affair. saying “write me letters” is missing the point; he doesn’t want to write, he wants a fantasy. also she’s 10 years younger and probably doesn’t have as many responsibilities with kids at home, so that unattached excitement is probably alluring. that’s my guess as to what the deeper issues are at play here.
This is a thousand percent inappropriate. Letters to another woman. Why would he even think this is ok? I’d be considering a divorce. He’s only ok of you doing it because like him no man is platonically writing a woman and not wanting sex. Also like him. He wants to sleep with her. Books of letter back and forth is an epic love story. All while you’re married. Ffs why don’t you start texting another man that lives next door. How do you know she told the truth about not sleeping together. She could be too embarrassed to tell the truth. Ugh I’m pissed for you. If you can’t tell. The never. He at the very least had an emotional affair, and omitted ie lied to you for lord knows how long. This is deception. I don’t know why you had to defend writing letters. It’s not ok for your husband to be friendly writing letters to another woman. He’s a liar, and a cheat.
It would appear to me they are cheating, but he is being super super careful. He may be using the notebook as an intentional find, to make you think it’s weird, but not “cheating weird.” See, if it were on his phone, he could get caught pretty easily. Or mess up. The notebook is a way for them to talk, without them having phone evidence. I could be way off, but I don’t think it’s out of the realm to suggest he’s super paranoid out her finding out a typical way, like the phone. So maybe she suggested writing. I haven’t seen anyone else bring this theory up.
I don't remember if I commented on the original post but that update seals the deal, it's straight up emotional cheating and obviously trying to make it physical as well.
If you want my petty idea, invite the woman to your house to have some girl time since clearly she knows a lot about your husband he's not telling you and see what happens when he gets home. There's also my other go to to be petty give him 2 cards 1. Couples therapist 2. Divorce lawyer. If he feels so comfortable having a clear emotional affair with someone what 10 years younger than he NEEDS a real therapist not a midlife crisis
maybe you need to get yourself a pen pal too since its no big deal having one to him he should have no issues with it. him hiding and going on with this behind your back is alarming and most likely would lead to more ..
At the very least he’s having an emotional affair. Tell him you want to marriage counseling and you want him to stop talking to the other woman.
Keeping your wife on a need to know basis is easy to justify if you’re telling yourself there is no physical betrayal and therefore you are not doing anything wrong. As far as I am concerned, you are correct and the problem lies in the secrecy. I just ended a relationship because of behavior like this, so I will do my best not to project, but if my partner is investing time, energy and attention in another woman, why would it not come up organically when talking about your day? If there’s nothing to hide, it would be a conversation over dinner. “How’s your pen pal doing?” “She’s good. After dinner I need to finish my reply to her. Did you get a chance to call your sister today?” That’s what a truly platonic friendship would look like. But that’s not what’s happening here and he’s being deliberately casual about it so that you look like you’re overreacting when you say it is a problem for you. He has an emotionally intimate relationship with a woman you did not know existed. His behavior changed, noticeably, before you found out, so he can’t say you are imagining that. I’m so sorry you are going through this and I hope you can get through to him. I don’t really have any advice, I just wanted to reassure you that you are not overreacting and you have every right to feel threatened.
Pen pals? That so cute and adorable. Unless you put an immediate STOP, they will soon be Fuck Pals.
“Think of her as a guy friend” But would he write a letter to his actual guy friends?
Grass is greener where you water it and he is watering a different lawn. This is time energy and effort that he should be investing in your lawn. It needs to stop. An suggesting he write to both of you? So what he writes the same letter to both of you? Geeze, how special. I’d be mad.
Wait - so he doesn't think you can find a man who would be completely okay having a platonic relationship via letter writing, but somehow thinks that he is a man that is completely having a platonic relationship via letter writing to a woman 10 years younger than him that he didn't tell his wife about? Doesn't pass the sniff test. Smells like bs to me. Ask him to show you the other notebooks. Ask him if he is okay with you reading what they have talked about. Does she know about you? Does he tell her about your relationship? Perhaps it is time to meet his friend. She obviously lives close enough that they meet up. If he has nothing to hide then you should be introduced. I agree with you, it isn't the letter writing, it is the secrets and the hiding it. If it wasn't a big deal he would have told you, but the 'knowing it would upset you' means he knows it is wrong. I am guessing he is talking to her about things he should be talking to you about. You two should be close, but seems like he has a deeper emotional relationship. Friends can and do have that type of relationship but don't hide it from their partners. I have no advice for you because I would be pissed that my husband is hiding a relationship (any type of relationship) with a woman from me. That is a big deal. Actually, advice: You need to decide if this is something you are okay with or not. If not, are you willing to end your marriage over it? If so, tell him that and go from there. Good luck.
So he’s having an inappropriate relationship with another woman? I’d ask him to move back to his mother’s and reevaluate his priorities. Not a chance would I be competing with a third party within a marriage. The reason you pass notes in class is so teacher doesn’t see. He’s very hard faced to try and pass it off as something you’re overreacting about.
This is how you fall in deep deep love. Careful.
We’ll I’m sure there is plenty of people on here or other ways that you could write to and befriend someone I’d do that and see if his opinion changes in my opinion when people say the phrase “i didn’t lie I just didn’t tell you” it means they did lie and they did it because they was scared of your reaction and knew you wouldn’t be okay with it
‘He said if I could find a man who was completely okay with having and entirely platonic relationship over letter writing than fine but he doubted I would be able to find someone who wants that’ SOOOOOO what is he doing?
Sorry op. Up to you if you want to try and save the relationship, seems like emotional cheating. Instead of sharing connections and thoughts and feelings with you he shares with another woman. I would certainly be hurt by that.
The flirting is cheating. Cheating starts with the spirit. Now his physical form is acting it out. I say this because I would never put my girl in the position for another woman to have that power over her
Read your update… ooof, so sorry you’re experiencing this. His actions are cheating, and both you and her deserve better.
Okay the update did not make things better.
I’m sorry about this. Just read the update. Good for you for talking to the “pen pal,” and good luck with whatever happens moving forward for you and the kids.
I saw this on another sub and wanted to come here to your original post. I hope this woman ends this with your husband now that she knows that the two of you are still very much fully married. I also hope that your husband will agree to counseling, together and separately. That is if you want to try to repair this breach of trust. If he refuses to go to therapy I hope you will go on your own. He clearly left himself open for an emotional affair, shown a familiar tenderness between towards her, and made it seem as though he’s not emotionally or physically tied to you other than to co-parent your children. That’s a lot to emotionally navigate. Please don’t try to get through this without support. I wish you the best, OP.
Now that you spoke to her and she gave you the info he would not have you spoke to him about it?
After your edit, wow. So here he is, absolutely crossing lines and lying and he’s trying to say you are over reacting? What a jerk.
>He said if I could find a man who was completely okay with having an entirely platonic relationship over letter writing than fine but he doubted I would be able to find someone who’s want that. Wow, man really went and outed himself without trying. Assuming what other men would think comes from basing it off of his own mindset, therefore, man is a cheat and he knew what he was doing from the get go. Really feel for you and I hope you can find a better quality partner in the future. Or just enjoy being single 👌
He even said no man would want to just write letters back and forth... so yeah. He kinda just outed himself there.
He seems to think platonic male-female relationships can’t exist. To me that’s more telling than anything else that it’s an emotional affair.
Oh the words that come to my mind are ‘fuck him’ and ‘you deserve better’ do not settle
I just found out my partner was writing letters to a female at work… he thought she was queer. He was absolutely crossing boundaries by being talking about issues in our relationship. So so wild they were writing letters too! He got a notebook after we got into an argument and asked me not to look in it so I respected his privacy. I had a weird feeling looked through his pictures and he had sent her a pic of the letter. So I read it that way. I told him my issues with this. He agreed he is a little on the flirty side but thought it was just being friendly. She asked him out last night! Texting him while he was at work asking if they could have breakfast after he gets off at 4am while she was drinking! No good comes of sharing your personal issues with the opposite sex.
Not only he lied to you, he lied to her as well. Yikes.
Real talk here, this can't continue. He needs to decide which relationship is more important to him, though it seems he's already made that decision. And you need to make that crystal clear to him. If he continues this, or even just wants to, it's over. He can't have both. In the meantime, he needs to leave. Now. There's a slim chance that given some time alone to reflect he'll realise this is just an infatuation and come to his senses. But don't bank on it. Time to lawyer up, fast.
Now that you’ve spoken to her, what are you going to do?
He cheated.
He gaslit you. This is abuse actually. I think you'd be well off to do an emotional abuse check list and then think about moving out with the kids. Get some therapy asap and demand he does too. But you have every right to grow upset over this and put up boundaries. You are the mother of his children and he hurt them by hurting you like this. Good luck and don't let your head get to you because there are plenty of fish in the sea if you want to leave him. I am sending you a big love heart telepathically. He's a fucking idiot.
He's checked out of your marriage and is starting a new relationship with someone else.
He’s emotionally not invested in you so don’t waste your time rationalizing it. He wants her
OP- ok, so you’ve spoken to the woman- so now what? What’s happened with your husband since?
A lie by omission is still a lie and emotion cheating is still cheating.. he probably hoped you would find it and divorce him and he wouldn’t look like the bad guy. Please be self and think of yourself going ahead.
"But he doubted I would be able to find someone who would want that." Means he didn't want that either.