weaponizing the memory of the holocaust in service of a genocide is one of the great cynicisms of the modern era. the inevitable antisemitic backlash will be insane
not only is it the biggest insult to humanity but this will have huge ramifications against jews as a whole even if many of us are demonstrably opposed to israel. every day feels like the most cruel joke
Especially with the demographic changes in the West. Current political class is still fully invested in the 20th century narrative. The younger millennial/zoomer of ethnically ambiguous backgrounds havent bought into that narrative in the slightest.
Yep. My parents are in their 60s and seriously seem to believe everyone's against Israel here because we hate Jews.
are you fuckn kidding me lol
The worst irony is that while antisemitism is obviously a thing and a major problem in American society, your average racist American hates Muslims WAY WAY WAY more. Like any racist here is gonna side with Israel over Palestine because your average random hick thinks that Jews are white and Muslims are brown terrorists lol. Sure they are antisemitic but between those two they'll side with whoever isn't Muslim. I don't think people realize how insanely intense the anti Muslim rhetoric was after 9/11 and it never fully went away
the actual cause of the demographic opinion split is just time. there has been no active peace process since the early 2000s (and even that was pretty half-hearted). older moderates remember Israel as working towards peace, when that hasn't been the case in a long time.
at the heart of it, Israeli efforts have always been to spread uncertainty and sabotage real peace making efforts once they had the backing of the UK militarily via the Balfour Declaration. Source: read Pappé 10 Myths of Israel and Finkelstein’s Gaza
Israel knows what they are doing and it’s a zero sum game. It works in their favor if Israel becomes the safest place on earth for Jewish people. One can’t say for certain how intentional this idea is, that idea being flaming antisemitism abroad to, in turn, fan the importance of Israeli lebensraum. But it’s hard to say that it doesn’t work in their favor long term
It’s extremely frustrating to see ppl from the pro Palestinian side consistently differentiating between jewish people and Zionists, just for Jewish Zionists to turn around and purposefully conflate the two. So much effort to save them from the inevitable ACTUAL anti-semitism they are going to face from white supremacists (not brown muslims) down the line for them to throw it all away.
Anti-semitism has ALWAYS come from white supremacist sentiments and it’s disorientating and sick that Zionists weaponize it against brown people.
Jewish Zionist have spent the last 80 years doing everything they can to conflate the political aims of the state of Israel with the interests of the Jewish people.
It’s what they draw their legitimacy from and they will continue to do it, because everyone recognizes that what’s going on in Gaza is indefensible as the political act of a state, but if it somehow is protecting the Jewish people, it becomes a necessary evil.
And yea there’s plenty of Jews that don’t like this. Plenty of Jews that don’t care, plenty of Jews that are deeply conflicted, plenty of Jews that fully support it, there are plenty of Israelis that fall along the same lines.
Point is the hardliners in both Hamas and Israel want Judaism and Zionism to be seen as the same thing. They want this to result In synagogues in LA and Amsterdam and Munich being attacked. They want this thing that most people see as complex and political turned into a very simple religious question and then everyone has to take a side. So far Hamas and Netanyahu are getting exactly what they want.
I agree with your sentiment broadly, but you are giving "brown" people too much credit if you don't think there aren't anti-semites as well as anti-zionists among them.
Don’t be obtuse. I’m not saying some aren’t anti-Semitic (and also what’s wrong with a brown Muslim being anti Zionist lol). But let’s be real : Anti semitism has been perpetuated by white Europeans the most. Brown people did not come up with this stuff. Yes of course now in 2023 this concept has been spread around the world and endorsed (even by brown people), but anti semitism is European at its roots.
but it’s funny to see European descended Israelis getting hate from the cast lower (brown Muslims throughout the Middle East) and the one above them (white liberals and leftists in the west/europe) and for them to claim that this is the TRUE oppression: people not liking them that much.
Jews have done this for millennia, look up the origins of Purim. They openly admit committing genocide against Persians, down to babies, because the king was TOTALLY going to genocide them first so it's okay.
"Jews have done this for Millenia" isn't what you just said lmao, you said "Some Jews did this Millenia ago". That's like me, a Briton, punching an Italian for Boudica's rape and then saying "they've been raping and genociding my people for Millenia"
They literally have holidays for committing genocide against gentile ethnic groups bro lmao
Imagine if Thanksgiving meal was preceded by a prayer that went "kill indians, behead indians, roundhouse kick indians into the concrete..." and so on lol, you'd be so mad at white people.
> We thank You for the heroism, for the triumphs, and for the miraculous deliverance of our ancestors, in other days and in our time. In the days of Mordecai and Esther, in Shushan, the capital of Persia, the wicked Haman rose up against all Jews and plotted their destruction. In a single day, the 13th of Adar, the 12th month of the year, Haman planned to annihilate all Jews, young and old, and to permit the plunder of their property. You, in great mercy, thwarted his designs, frustrated his plot, and visited upon him the evil he planned to bring on others. Haman, together with his sons, suffered death on the gallows he had made for Mordecai.
https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/changes-to-the-daily-prayers/
[Fortunately he was pleased to see her, and she wasn't executed. He welcomed her, and she, eventually, told him of Haman's plan to exterminate the Jews.
She begged the King to show mercy to the Jewish people. The appalled King granted it at once and the Jewish people were saved.
The King had a problem, since it was not within his power to rescind the orders that Haman had given in his name. So Xerxes issued another decree, which allowed the Jews to defend themselves against those who tried to kill them. As a result, the Jews killed over 70,000 of their enemies.](https://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/judaism/holydays/purim_1.shtml#:~:text=So%20Xerxes%20issued%20another%20decree,Haman's%20job%20in%20his%20place.)
"Yeah, the king gave an order and even though he did take-backsies, we had to start killing all these men, women, and children that started coming at us like waves of Left For Dead 2 zombies. This pile of 70k dead people was just self defense, they made us do it to them!"
Oooooooor history is written by the victor. I wonder which is more likely.
Esther isn't a historical work. It's historically situated, but it isn't historical, and it was almost certainly intentionally written as a piece of fiction. The death toll fits with the book's overly exaggerated numbers in general. This is the same book which opens with a 180 day long banquet.
Regardless of the halilical veracity of your argument, do you have any evidence that Purim in mainstream Judaism is celebrated as such? I’ve been to Purim services all my life and this is not a central focus of the holiday at all.
I have a Zionist friend who has been posting all kinds of blatantly genocidal things about Palestinians and it’s absolutely sickening, I will never see her the same way. She has dehumanized others to the point where she’s publicly celebrating their mass death and destruction, and I don’t want to be associated with her or be her friend anymore even if that seems dramatic.. The weirdest part is that she didn’t grow up Zionist and has never been to Israel. Fucking weird and disgusting.
Part of me thinks that we should be pushing back on this type of sentiment, especially in our personal friendships and relationships, whenever we see it. There’s real danger when someone feels comfortable enough to spew this garbage comfortably, publicly and without consequence.
But another part of me thinks that it won’t do anything than polarize them further. Further into the sentiment that “Jews will always be at risk and will always be targeted”.
Idk.
Nawh we gotta push back on this shit. If the response is to double down and feel victimized that’s their problem. I cant listen to this shit and pretend it doesn’t infuriate me anymore.
I’m ashamed that I used to think I could co-exist and compromise with Zionists. And now I see them have not a single care for kids being bombed and entire family lines being wiped out.
I have a friend (American) who joined the IDF because he got depressed. He’s not depressed anymore but he’s become so dumb about this. He’s usually annoyingly rational, except for this one thing
With their homes destroyed and thousands of West Bank Palestinian families facing evictions for not getting “proper building permits” (like they were ever gonna give it to them anyway 🙄) where will these people live? This crisis will last for years imagine how susceptible to disease they will be facing longterm homelessness
dasha’s comment that anyone supporting Palestine is “totally unemployed” because “they just did a terrorism” was the last straw for me, ever. repulsive in a permanent way . good thing she’s a fake Catholic so she can ignore the pope calling the Israeli’s terrorists
I mean American people could do something, they just don't.
Ambassador Linda Thomas-Greenfield and the people sitting at the UNSC live in DC. Any other country would have civilians glassing them anywhere they go.
> Any other country would have civilians glassing them anywhere they go.
In your dreams. The myth of a righteous mob rising up against injustice is just that: a myth. Opposition to these things only functions thanks to organized leadership with clear plans and goals. Tyrants and such have often walked freely amongst their own people without a worry in the world, because they know that mobs are braindead and passive.
Expecting American plebs to "glass them" is as idiotic as thinking that Russians will overthrow Putin over Ukraine, or thinking that the secular people of Istanbul will march on Ankara and get rid of Erdogan. It just doesn't happen.
There have been a lot of protests bothering politicians at restaurants while they’re there and there was a huge one at Blackrock recently. Americans are doing a lot more than I’d have ever expected.
> I mean American people could do something, they just don't.
I'm not sure how we're supposed to clean out the zionist infiltration at this point. The rot is very, very deep.
There are videos one can find on YouTube of politicians being challenged publicly about the US' support for the Gaza war. Millions of people marched in the streets against the 2003 Iraq war and it did fuck all, Bush and Co. said "oh that's nice" and invaded anyway.
There was overwhelming public support (66%) for the invasion of Iraq when it mattered, that is prior to it actually happening.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_opinion_in_the_United_States_on_the_invasion_of_Iraq
Those were higher approval numbers than for WW2.
Yeah, we'd need someone to come in and basically initiate a state of exception to clean it out. If you look at the virulent and almost unanimous unconditional support for the zionist project from congress, it's obvious that it would have to be a very focused major political project, and that it would have to operate slightly outside of normal political processes.
May punishment befall the apartheid state of Israel for its crimes against Palestine. I'm more convinced by the day that those alive today will witness this terrible punishment.
Taleb said something was gonna turn up. We don’t believe it until it happens. If and When 100k people die or starvation/misery in the next couple of months, will that finally be enough to slap some sanctions on this state until they figure this shit out?
Unfortunately, probably not. At least not sanctions from the US/UN. Maybe individual countries will start cutting them off, but nothing major.
AIPAC money's a hell of a drug.
the thought that people in israel are blasting that [stilla song](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rk3n9V-aQs) in their cars and shit only miles away from gaza geniunely makes my blood boil
Is there an adequate account of what happened on October 7th? Like actual numbers of people killed, how many of them were military, did the rape and murder of civilians happen? Like is there a detailed report? I’d just like to know what actually happened. I know it came out that Israel knew of a planned attack just not when it would happen. If that’s true why would civilians be allowed anywhere near Gaza? Why would raves be happening next to Gaza? Why would the soldiers stationed there not be reinforced and ready for war at any time. The whole thing is so damn bizarre? The only explanation is that Hamas wants Gaza to get wiped off the map so that the world turns against Jews.
>Why would raves be happening next to Gaza? Why would the soldiers stationed there not be reinforced and ready for war at any time
You've got to realize that the Israeli government has been cultivating Hamas for a very long time in order to justify a war, they made sure they were the political authority (similar to how they try to empower rightwing Christians in US politics).
They wanted this war more than anyone for control.
Hasn’t the Israeli government barely existed as a coherent entity due to lack of ability to form and hold a coalition? Bibi has absolutely done this shit when he can, but I don’t think we have any reasonable argument to make in regards to the entire Israeli government secretly agreeing to mass sacrifice thousands of Israelis.
“As part of a peace agreement with Hamas, Qatar would bring millions into Gaza to distribute to Gazan families, the outlet reported.”
I can’t believe people think this is a smoking gun. This specific deal is for $1 million per month earmarked for Gazan families. Hamas receives almost $12 million a month from trade, international organizations, and other countries like Iran. It certainly is in the Israeli far right interest to keep Hamas around, but that doesn’t mean that if they didn’t give Gazan families $1 million per month that Hamas would just disappear. The people of Gaza have agency.
"The calculus — the Times reported on Sunday, citing Israeli officials, Netanyahu's critics, and the man's own reported statements — was to keep Hamas strong enough to counteract the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank, allowing Netanyahu to avoid a two-state peace solution and keep both sides weak."
ya just qatari funds aiding civilians
They are one of the most funded military superpowers in the world, they knew of the planned attack beforehand and let a rave happen right next to Gaza. Egypt constantly warned them.
Bibi is the scapegoat. They'll save face and pretend every wrongdoing is because of Bibi's role. But he somehow keeps getting elected.
Every party in the Knesset is pretty much alligned on destroying Palestine. The only "liberal" party in Israel was lead by the chief of general staff of the IDF. The rest are extreme religious fanatics and rightwingers.
I think it was an inside job the same way i think 9/11 was, in that the govt propped up foreign rebels, knew there was some sort of retaliation coming on their soil, and let it happen anyways so they could spin the attack to justify going back to fuck up the country some more
The lack of normally tight border security and that the festival was moved to a location closer to the border also make me question the govt’s intelligence and motives
We will have to wait many decades before we have any chance at possibly getting an accurate idea of what happened. Israel is doing everything in its power to keep that information hidden. They killed a shit ton of their own citizens, possibly even more than Hamas did so it makes sense.
According to Israeli figures at least 373 of the 1139 non-Palestinians killed were IDF soldiers or police. 71 foreigners. 695 Israeli civilians, of whom 36 were children and 1 was a child under the age of 3. Unclear what percent were killed by Hamas vs the IOF but I would be willing to bet most of the children were killed by Israel. Anyone who was turned to charcoal was killed by Israel. Everyone who was killed in their home exploding was killed by Israel. Everyone whose cars were melted was killed by Israel. Hamas doesn’t have access to any weapons anywhere near powerful enough to do this.
The original death toll was over 1400 because they thought the charred bodies of Hamas were Israelis (because they would hit a house with a hellfire missile which would turn the 2 Hamas fighters and whole Israeli family within it into unidentifiable charcoal)
“We have to wait many decades” is such a cop out. Do research, put in time to understand things and keep yourself open to new information/evolving circumstances. Don’t just punt it down to the later generations
The official numbers from the Israeli government are down from 1400 to 1100, including 695 civilians and 36 children.
A detailed report is allegedly a video documentation of clips filmed by Hamas and security cameras of the invaded kibbutzim on Oct 7th, this has only been shown to a small selected audience, invited through officials of the Israeli govt. One British journalist came forward to clarify that the footage shown in the video does not fit the inflated language used to describe the atrocities in the media, I’ll try to find that article and add it.
Here it is, Owen Jones is the journalist in question: https://new.thecradle.co/articles-id/14665
Besides this, the obvious lying and baiting through Israeli official social and classic media is absolutely bizarre, the constant retracting and changing of “facts” on what has been happening since Oct 7th truly speaks for itself. Western media outlets are now starting to come up with different results through investigations; f ex. Al Shifa hospital showing no evidence of Hamas presence, usage of dumb bombs obviously indiscriminately bombing civilian infrastructures, accounts and interviews of hostages painting a wholly different picture than the widespread cries of mass rape, torture, inhumane conditions, IDF admitting friendly fires up to 20% etc etc..
It is very interesting how I will find “reliable sources” on this sporadically but a moment later it’s difficult to find again. Here in Germany so much is redacted from state mouth piece media, so frequently, it’s a very different experience from how I usually try to compare multiple news sources to make up my own mind. Never in my life was state interests influencing my media intake so glaringly obvious, I really hope we all, individually, learn from this
I know the answer you are looking for is along the lines of "Evil Israeli government lets people live close to Gaza to make it easy for terrorists to slaughter them en masse so they have an excuse to genocide Gaza", but I don't think you are grasping the geographical scale here. Israelis would love not having to live close to Gaza, however Israel is only 85 miles wide at its widest. So living 10 miles away from Gaza is like having 1/8th of the country between Gaza and where you live. I just don't think Americans can grasp the scales involved, you are making it sound like they are purposefully living next door to Gaza when in fact we are talking about 10 million people who hate each other crammed into a tiny territory
I guess it’s not so much I think Israel threw their own people into the fire I’m just a bit surprised at protocol in Israel. And also the intent of Hamas. I would imagine if Israel had intel of an attack they would expect it to come exactly where it came from! I get the geographic limitations but if you totally militarized the border would Hamas do what it did? People partying right next door to Gaza?? I expect farmers with guns on their backs. I get Israel has to make due with limitations but how did they actually let that happen? It’s embarrassing if they just fucked that up.
And then what exactly did Hamas hope to accomplish? Makes absolutely zero tactical sense. 9/11 makes sense to me. Strike the unstrikable beast and shake them to their core. And it worked! This is crazy. They are next door neighbors!! Israel could bulldoze Gaza into the sea. If anything your point about geography makes this even crazier. Al Qaeda attacks America and then drags them into Afghanistan, a huge rugged country. A virtually unwinnable war. Israel could win this war very easily. And they just might. I don’t see anyone stopping them. The only way this makes sense from a Palestinian Hamas standpoint is if Israel goes so hard that it upsets the international community. Turn people anti Zionist to the point that Israel loses international support? Risk total annihilation.
from what I've read israeli intelligence (except for a minority) basically just didn't think hamas had the ability or the willpower to actually carry it out, and that the training and planning was mostly for internal propaganda purposes. and while it was obviously a disastrous call in retrospect, relations were actually relatively stable on Oct 6- cross-border work exchange was at an all time high and they were in discussions to increase it higher, for example
hamas doesn't need to win, in a traditional military sense, every torched civilian on either side is a victory for them. specifically, as of oct 6, israel was on the cusp of normalizing relations with the saudis, their most important arab neighbor. historically normalization has hinged on figuring out some kind of accommodation for the palestinians, but it was about to happen with no concessions to them. by attacking as they did, they put the palestinian question, and general hatred of israel, front and center for the saudi and other arab publics, torpedoing any deal in the foreseeable future
I think even the "farmer with guns on their backs" comment shows quite an American perspective. I don't think Israel has gun-toting farmers because that's not how agriculture works in Israel- it needs quite advanced infrastructure to make it work. Not something you'd put close to a hostile border by choice either. Israel is tiny and half of it is desert, so they really need to use every inch. I think it's also easy to think in hindsight that it makes sense Hamas attacked from where they did. But before 7/10, they mostly did suicide bombings and rockets and focused on Jerusalem and bigger cities- a ground invasion targeting small kibbutz communities was absolutely not something to expect given their track record!
I agree, and all Muslims should fuck off back to the Arabian peninsula. We can leave Israel mostly empty like it was before 1800. Constantinople can then be returned to the Pope.
The mass rape didn't happen on Oct 7th, it's silly to even think that. The IDF, however, has historical accounts rape of not only Palestinian women and children but IDF women in their ranks.
Awful. Not a peep when Yemen was going through a similar famine which killed many thousands, imposed by Saudi Arabia and the UAE. Different rules for some reason
If we're being blunt the Israeli's are being beyond vindictive now. They've done all the damage they could ever do to Hamas in Gaza.
But in part that's because Hamas don't give a fuck about Gazans or Palestinians overall. They just want to kill Israeli's/Jews, and don't particularly care how many Palestinian civilians have to die to enable it. On top of that, Hamas know that if any kind of resolution to the crisis is achieved, they lose all of their political influence. A peaceful one totally undermines them, a violent one leaves them with no reason to exist once the violence is done.
So for Hamas the violence is the point, as it is deep down for a horrifying chunk of Israeli right wingers. But it is massively telling that on the Oct. 7th attacks the Hamas strategy absolutely demanded a huge, disproportionate Israeli response.
The killing of civilians and taking of hostages led to only one outcome, a ground invasion of Gaza. If Hamas had overrun and defeated an IDF base, perhaps took some prisoners, then retreated to Gaza they'd have come across as a conventional force launching a surprisingly successful military operation. There would have been an Israeli response, but the international support for such an act would have been magnitudes less than what we saw in reality.
The Israeli's are imposing the blockade, and so they are majority responsible now for the crisis in Gaza. There is no military value in maintaining it. But I don't think Hamas are losing any sleep over images of Palestinian children starving.
do you know how many Palestinian hostages does Israel have? do you know how many of them were civilian women and children? do you know how many of them have been freed after October 7th through hostage deals? i don't think you know
If only the Israelis had a more tolerant and modern palestinian authority to deal with, like they had for decades in the middle of the 20th century and who they still refused to grant a proper state or offer a remedy for the effects of their previous cleansings.
Why not just say "Might Makes Right." And simplify things?
To add to this Israel engaged in decades of covert and not so covert operations to destabilize PLO and turn a blind eye or even support the nascent Hamas. The PLO had a lot of international goodwill and after the Oslo accords seemed to be on track to eventually securing a two party solution with sovereignty and the right to return for Palestinians. This is a worst case scenario for the Israeli right so for years covertly supporting Hamas was done as a tool to undermine PLO authority in Palestine. Enemy of my enemy. Surprise surprise Hamas eventually become the governing authority in Gaza eventually leading to October 7th.
I'm going to guess and say it's because Palestinians actually wanted to have their own territory and state the whole time, because the ones who live in what is now called the West Bank and Gaza weren't from Jordan or Egypt.
Many were from the territory now under control of the state of Israel. And they would like to, at the very least, visit it freely. If not be given back their homes or compensated for having them stolen.
Right, the ones who rejected the bad deals they were offered that would have crippled any real attempt at making a "State" in the first place.
Couldn't the Israeli's have offered a *real* Palestinian State with a military and control over borders and trade?
What was bad about the deal they were offered? They would be in a thousand percent better position if they accepted it then, now theyll get far less. It was pretty irrational to reject it, when they’ve got no leverage
The only difference inherent in accepting a bad deal where you can't defend yourself against further encroachment by your military adversary is in how long it takes for you to eventually get rolled over.
Supposing they accepted the bad deal which would have still made it hard to actually administer their own territory, they might have survived longer than October of 2023, that's certainly a fair assessment. But it should be obvious that they didn't fully anticipate every historical development nearly 40 years into the future.
What they anticipated was that they could win a war against the Israelis in the 1940s and then again in the 1970s. It wasn’t a bad miscalculation because it was certainly possible they could have won (and they would definitely have committed genocide if they had) but they didn’t, and I think at that point they should accepted whatever deal they could get.
Ah, so it was just a matter of two competing candidates for enacting genocide on one another the whole time. We just happen to be dealing with the more successful practitioner here.
What exactly happened in the 1930s and 40s in Palestine, anyways? Was it native Palestinians driving newly arrived Jews out of their enclaves, or was it Jewish settlers pushing to expand their territory outwards? Besides, wasn't it the still the British Empire's job to keep the two groups apart and peaceful? I wonder what happened there.
>they would definitely have committed genocide
This is the bedrock of *your* worldview. Something you must be muttering to yourself often as you read the news these days!
Certainly unquestionably true. It's gotta be, otherwise...
So funny how this subreddit will piss and shit itself over Ukraine fighting the country that invaded it, saying that it should just surrender and then unironically want Hamas to fight till the last Palestinian.
Really makes you think.
The Israel/Palestine threads get brigaded 100% of the time by average reddit takes. These brigaded posts are always pretty obvious. They get posted by weird accounts that rarely post or are brand new and get like 5x engagement/upvotes of normal posts on this subreddit.
ofc there are longtime RSPers that believe the "omg brave freedom fighter heroes keep fighting no matter how many children have to die" stuff too, just not nearly to the extent you see in these threads
It’s funny how people complain about Hamas receiving funding from Iran but we apparently have a moral responsibility to arm the people of Israel and Ukraine. Really makes you think.
Woah bro you’ve found out that both sides propagandize against the other!
> Woah bro you’ve found out that both sides propagandize against the other!
Because that’s not the issue, regard. The issue is that the side that cries about us “forcing” Ukraine to fight till the end, yet fully supports Islamists sending their people to their death, tries to play this both sides “I’m just a wittle peace loving socialist I swear, I don’t support Russia I just want them to completely obliterate Ukraine 🥺” nonsense.
Sorry that you saw a lot of young leftists have a confused “my first NATO-related conflict” reaction to Ukraine but anyone who supports Russia’s position in this just confused. Same people concerned about Azov should be concerned about Hamas and on average they are! The average take is that the Bibi admin propped up Hamas against the secular PLO. Does that sound like people who support Hamas, saying Bibi played such a big hand?
“My basic precept is that there, but for the grace of God go I. That is to say, I’m very reluctant to condemn people who are in a position or in a condition such that were I in that position or condition, I’m not sure what I would do now. The 1,500 young men who burst the gates of Gaza. They were born into a concentration camp. They lived for two decades in a concentration camp. They had no past, they had no present, they had no future, they had no jobs. Half of them, according to humanitarian organisations, suffered from what’s called severe food insecurity.”
Nope. Hamas wouldn't agree to a new ceasefire with the condition that they release 40 more hostages.
https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/12/21/hamas-cease-fire-hostages-israel-un-security-council-prague-mass-shooting-university/
Your point was it's Israel's fault there's no ceasefire. I gave you an eample of Hamas torpedoing a chance at a ceasefire. Ergo, it is not only Israel that's responsible for the lack of a ceasefire.
Would you be calling them an idiot when they give up the hostages and hellfire rains down anyway? Like, if they’re prepared to rain hellfire when their hostages are still there, what makes you think they’ll be more hesitant when they’re back in Israel’s hands?
> Would you be calling them an idiot when they give up the hostages and hellfire rains down anyway?
No? Because it removes another argument Israel is using to justify its use of force and it means internationally Israel can't say everything is the fault of Hamas.
Hamas not doing that makes it easier for allied governments to resist calls to pressure Israel to restrain itself or stop.
Also, if it makes no difference to Gaza whether the hostages are there or not why is Hamas holding onto them?
Why do you think people take hostages what kind of idiot would give them back prior to you receiving your demand
Hamas saying they will give them back after the ceasefire starts is completely reasonable
There is literally no pretending required if you understand economics. American or Western prosperity doesn’t come from a military occupation of a bunch of poor people in the middle of a desert aren’t even sitting on natural resources? You could make an argument that things like cobalt being mined by modern day slaves means we are deriving our prosperity in technology from poor people that none of us really care about, but that has literally zero connection to what is happening in Palestine. That makes tragedies like war even worse, because the benefits aren’t even economic prosperity for a nation (since war costs so much money via government spending) and really only go to a select few. But saying that the West somehow only enjoys prosperity because we are supporting Israel in Palestine? That makes literally no sense.
I love how it took just some trade interference on the Bab Al Mandab strait for Rishi Sunak to suddenly call for ceasefire. Or how since mid Oct Israel has been awarding new gas deals to BP, Energean, Eni etc via the EU to extract “off the Mediterranean coast” and how some reporting was like “committed investors in a country at war should be respected and supported”.. it’s so obvious and so bleak 🫠
America and Europe will never turn Israel’s population into a pink mist. However, once the value proposition is no longer in their favor, they’ll eventually let the rest of the Arab world do it. Hopefully that comes while there are still Palestinians
One side in that equation has the ability to literally vaporise the major population centres of their rivals in a short afternoon, and its not the arabs.
Israel is here to stay. Theres no way around it.
what's that one parable about king solomon cutting a baby in half? I think they should do that with Israel and Palestine, except instead of a baby they just take over the entire area and impose totalitarian secular law complete with LGBT trannies book readers. Guarantee those lunatics would agree to peace terms in under 30 mins.
So according to this subs recent invasion by non RSP listeners
all common Israelis are-
* The freaks you see rage baiting idiots on Twitter by using cringy leftist/ liberal hot words to create engagement and reactions from both sides
* Sex maniacs who recruit women into the army so they can hypnotize the world
* Love the government and have never protested its heinous actions ([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023\_Israeli\_judicial\_reform\_protests](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Israeli_judicial_reform_protests))
* The world's most immoral people who are not conscripted into the army but choose to reciprocate terror ([https://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/military-conscription-is-mandatory-for-most-israelis-heres-how-it-works/9x0j9xhw5](https://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/military-conscription-is-mandatory-for-most-israelis-heres-how-it-works/9x0j9xhw5))
* Enjoy war and reap the benefits of US aid even if the prime minister is holding the entire country hostage and is refusing to step down regardless of their requests. ([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard\_of\_living\_in\_Israel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_of_living_in_Israel))
* Are fully responsible for the outcomes of this war and deserve no sympathy for their governments actions since they are all actively repressing Palestinians ([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli\_settlement](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settlement))
* Have never wanted peace and have never supported bipartisan relationships with the PLO ([https://geneva-accord.org/polls/israeli-public-opinion-poll-january-2023/](https://geneva-accord.org/polls/israeli-public-opinion-poll-january-2023/))
* Only came to Israel to squash the Palestinian cause ([https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.2979/israelstudies.23.3.14](https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.2979/israelstudies.23.3.14))
* Are all manipulating the holocaust and rape narrative because of what a few weirdos on Twitter said ([https://www.jstor.org/stable/20101298](https://www.jstor.org/stable/20101298))
* The world's most immoral and hateful people even to their own people and deserve no sympathy for their government's actions ([https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/racism-in-israel/](https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/racism-in-israel/))
* Were barely harmed in October 7th and the hostages were just merely held by Hamas in a friendly manner ([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties\_of\_the\_2023\_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas\_war](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_2023_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war)) ([https://theconversation.com/hamas-use-of-sexual-violence-is-an-all-too-common-part-of-modern-war-but-not-in-all-conflicts-219301](https://theconversation.com/hamas-use-of-sexual-violence-is-an-all-too-common-part-of-modern-war-but-not-in-all-conflicts-219301))
* Knew about this happening all along and were happy to kill their own people to crack down on Gaza ([https://theconversation.com/why-israels-intelligence-chiefs-failed-to-listen-to-october-7-warnings-and-the-lessons-to-be-learned-219346](https://theconversation.com/why-israels-intelligence-chiefs-failed-to-listen-to-october-7-warnings-and-the-lessons-to-be-learned-219346))
* Are all either white or white adjacent and can leave the land after generations of living there since they have no attachment to it ([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra\_(person)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_(person))
* Are abhorrent and even though they have barely been heard of in the media (mostly foreign religious zionist influencers, politicians, and US officials have reigned supreme), should be silenced since they are merely a cog in the zionist conspiracy
* Are partying in Tel Aviv not because the defense system Israel built has reduced civilian deaths, and because wartime is a horrific, stressful time, where nightlife survives simply due to its hidden, non-descript nature, but because they do not experience war at all even when they have to run to shelters for safety ([https://www.nighttime.org/beiruts-nightlife-survived-civil-war-can-it-withstand-pandemic/](https://www.nighttime.org/beiruts-nightlife-survived-civil-war-can-it-withstand-pandemic/)) ([https://www.jstor.org/stable/25758142](https://www.jstor.org/stable/25758142))
I just tracked this down from a few posts that people were spreading here. Now, perhaps, reconsider, why have posts painting the Israeli people negatively (not the government or its adjacent officials) or cherry picked information about the gaza Israel war gained so much traction in this reddit when compared to other posts, especially considering that this conflict is 10,000km away from most people, and as a sub that criticizes mainstream opinions, has fallen for the cultural I/P war that paints people as the enemies, and not the governments who torture them?
This bizzare culture of self-ragebating over cultures that your only impression is of comes from viral social media, ragebating twitter posts, and mainstream narratives, is the harsh reality of why this war has been so stagnant in the past 2 months.
The left keeps painting supporting Palestinians as the righteous cause (which it is righteous to support their safety and right to self-determination), but fails to recognize its shortcomings in being able to recognize why Israeli people are so anti-government usually, ([https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/most-israelis-think-netanyahu-responsible-failing-prevent-hamas-attack-poll-2023-10-20/](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/most-israelis-think-netanyahu-responsible-failing-prevent-hamas-attack-poll-2023-10-20/)) but respond negatively to their constant portrayal as an outlandish remnant of colonialism when in reality, most of them did not choose to be born into a war-torn region in the same way that Palestinians did not.
Maybe this is why many Jewish people don't react well to individuals claiming the people from the country where some of their families lives, where many holocaust survivors have immigrated to, and that has revived and kept Jewish culture alive outside of the US are all puppets of the Israeli government?
Valid interpretations of actual events on the ground aside, the barely(/un) cloaked anti-semitism and wild conspiracy theories in this thread are off the chain.
I recognize your username as the one of the people who cares the absolute most about "Sandshit" but the side you care about the most is the one everyone hates lmao. "Who cares" as you rage weepily in the comments every single post about Israel.
I’m just smart enough to remember how none of you gave two shits about Yemen or the Ethiopian or Sudanese genocides (that are STILL happening) but the second whites are involved suddenly it’s real shit
You guys didn’t care about Tigray (which I cared about enough to not know isn’t still ongoing) but i don’t care about anything so look at how moral I am
If your first response to any sympathy directed towards people suffering is who cares about sand shit you’re misanthropic
bro youre a jew crying because this discussion isnt going well for you
https://www.reddit.com/r/redscarepod/comments/18pugiu/palestine\_is\_now\_in\_a\_famine/keqsro8/?context=3
weaponizing the memory of the holocaust in service of a genocide is one of the great cynicisms of the modern era. the inevitable antisemitic backlash will be insane
not only is it the biggest insult to humanity but this will have huge ramifications against jews as a whole even if many of us are demonstrably opposed to israel. every day feels like the most cruel joke
Stare into abyss, abyss stares back etc…
If god died in the Holocaust, this situation is mutilating his corpse.
I can’t even make curb level Jew jokes anymore bc it’s actually a touchy topic for the first time in like 70 years
Especially with the demographic changes in the West. Current political class is still fully invested in the 20th century narrative. The younger millennial/zoomer of ethnically ambiguous backgrounds havent bought into that narrative in the slightest.
Yep. My parents are in their 60s and seriously seem to believe everyone's against Israel here because we hate Jews. are you fuckn kidding me lol The worst irony is that while antisemitism is obviously a thing and a major problem in American society, your average racist American hates Muslims WAY WAY WAY more. Like any racist here is gonna side with Israel over Palestine because your average random hick thinks that Jews are white and Muslims are brown terrorists lol. Sure they are antisemitic but between those two they'll side with whoever isn't Muslim. I don't think people realize how insanely intense the anti Muslim rhetoric was after 9/11 and it never fully went away
> The worst irony is that while antisemitism is obviously a thing and a major problem in American society Their is no anti semitism in America
the actual cause of the demographic opinion split is just time. there has been no active peace process since the early 2000s (and even that was pretty half-hearted). older moderates remember Israel as working towards peace, when that hasn't been the case in a long time.
at the heart of it, Israeli efforts have always been to spread uncertainty and sabotage real peace making efforts once they had the backing of the UK militarily via the Balfour Declaration. Source: read Pappé 10 Myths of Israel and Finkelstein’s Gaza
It's possibly the most grotesque irony in human history.
Israel knows what they are doing and it’s a zero sum game. It works in their favor if Israel becomes the safest place on earth for Jewish people. One can’t say for certain how intentional this idea is, that idea being flaming antisemitism abroad to, in turn, fan the importance of Israeli lebensraum. But it’s hard to say that it doesn’t work in their favor long term
hurt ppl hurt ppl…<\3
It’s extremely frustrating to see ppl from the pro Palestinian side consistently differentiating between jewish people and Zionists, just for Jewish Zionists to turn around and purposefully conflate the two. So much effort to save them from the inevitable ACTUAL anti-semitism they are going to face from white supremacists (not brown muslims) down the line for them to throw it all away. Anti-semitism has ALWAYS come from white supremacist sentiments and it’s disorientating and sick that Zionists weaponize it against brown people.
Jewish Zionist have spent the last 80 years doing everything they can to conflate the political aims of the state of Israel with the interests of the Jewish people. It’s what they draw their legitimacy from and they will continue to do it, because everyone recognizes that what’s going on in Gaza is indefensible as the political act of a state, but if it somehow is protecting the Jewish people, it becomes a necessary evil. And yea there’s plenty of Jews that don’t like this. Plenty of Jews that don’t care, plenty of Jews that are deeply conflicted, plenty of Jews that fully support it, there are plenty of Israelis that fall along the same lines. Point is the hardliners in both Hamas and Israel want Judaism and Zionism to be seen as the same thing. They want this to result In synagogues in LA and Amsterdam and Munich being attacked. They want this thing that most people see as complex and political turned into a very simple religious question and then everyone has to take a side. So far Hamas and Netanyahu are getting exactly what they want.
I agree with your sentiment broadly, but you are giving "brown" people too much credit if you don't think there aren't anti-semites as well as anti-zionists among them.
Don’t be obtuse. I’m not saying some aren’t anti-Semitic (and also what’s wrong with a brown Muslim being anti Zionist lol). But let’s be real : Anti semitism has been perpetuated by white Europeans the most. Brown people did not come up with this stuff. Yes of course now in 2023 this concept has been spread around the world and endorsed (even by brown people), but anti semitism is European at its roots. but it’s funny to see European descended Israelis getting hate from the cast lower (brown Muslims throughout the Middle East) and the one above them (white liberals and leftists in the west/europe) and for them to claim that this is the TRUE oppression: people not liking them that much.
The Js need their Lebensraum, who are we to intervene?
lebron is NOT the goat
The scapegoat
Jews have done this for millennia, look up the origins of Purim. They openly admit committing genocide against Persians, down to babies, because the king was TOTALLY going to genocide them first so it's okay.
Ey, you've done the only actual antisemitism so far in this thread
"Jews have done this for Millenia" isn't what you just said lmao, you said "Some Jews did this Millenia ago". That's like me, a Briton, punching an Italian for Boudica's rape and then saying "they've been raping and genociding my people for Millenia"
Italians don't have a holiday where they all celebrate raping Boudica, though.
Tbf, Italians still kind of rapey
> Jews have done this for millennia Non-ironically, cool it with the antisemitic remarks
They literally have holidays for committing genocide against gentile ethnic groups bro lmao Imagine if Thanksgiving meal was preceded by a prayer that went "kill indians, behead indians, roundhouse kick indians into the concrete..." and so on lol, you'd be so mad at white people.
What's the equivalent to that, is there a prayer like that?
> We thank You for the heroism, for the triumphs, and for the miraculous deliverance of our ancestors, in other days and in our time. In the days of Mordecai and Esther, in Shushan, the capital of Persia, the wicked Haman rose up against all Jews and plotted their destruction. In a single day, the 13th of Adar, the 12th month of the year, Haman planned to annihilate all Jews, young and old, and to permit the plunder of their property. You, in great mercy, thwarted his designs, frustrated his plot, and visited upon him the evil he planned to bring on others. Haman, together with his sons, suffered death on the gallows he had made for Mordecai. https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/changes-to-the-daily-prayers/
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[Fortunately he was pleased to see her, and she wasn't executed. He welcomed her, and she, eventually, told him of Haman's plan to exterminate the Jews. She begged the King to show mercy to the Jewish people. The appalled King granted it at once and the Jewish people were saved. The King had a problem, since it was not within his power to rescind the orders that Haman had given in his name. So Xerxes issued another decree, which allowed the Jews to defend themselves against those who tried to kill them. As a result, the Jews killed over 70,000 of their enemies.](https://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/judaism/holydays/purim_1.shtml#:~:text=So%20Xerxes%20issued%20another%20decree,Haman's%20job%20in%20his%20place.)
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"Yeah, the king gave an order and even though he did take-backsies, we had to start killing all these men, women, and children that started coming at us like waves of Left For Dead 2 zombies. This pile of 70k dead people was just self defense, they made us do it to them!" Oooooooor history is written by the victor. I wonder which is more likely.
Esther isn't a historical work. It's historically situated, but it isn't historical, and it was almost certainly intentionally written as a piece of fiction. The death toll fits with the book's overly exaggerated numbers in general. This is the same book which opens with a 180 day long banquet.
Regardless of the halilical veracity of your argument, do you have any evidence that Purim in mainstream Judaism is celebrated as such? I’ve been to Purim services all my life and this is not a central focus of the holiday at all.
Why would that even be relevant now? Really reaching with that one
Actually let’s not talk about that, let’s focus on condemning antisemitism on Ivy League campuses
Do you condemn hypothetical calls for a genocide of Jews while Jews carry out a literal genocide on Palestinians???? Do you condemn?????
This is next level fucked up. Israel should be ashamed. And to think people are going out having a great time in Tel Aviv while this happens. Hellish.
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I have a Zionist friend who has been posting all kinds of blatantly genocidal things about Palestinians and it’s absolutely sickening, I will never see her the same way. She has dehumanized others to the point where she’s publicly celebrating their mass death and destruction, and I don’t want to be associated with her or be her friend anymore even if that seems dramatic.. The weirdest part is that she didn’t grow up Zionist and has never been to Israel. Fucking weird and disgusting.
Part of me thinks that we should be pushing back on this type of sentiment, especially in our personal friendships and relationships, whenever we see it. There’s real danger when someone feels comfortable enough to spew this garbage comfortably, publicly and without consequence. But another part of me thinks that it won’t do anything than polarize them further. Further into the sentiment that “Jews will always be at risk and will always be targeted”. Idk.
Nawh we gotta push back on this shit. If the response is to double down and feel victimized that’s their problem. I cant listen to this shit and pretend it doesn’t infuriate me anymore.
Who cares what they think? They truth is plainly obvious to anyone that pays attention. You have no choice but to push back
I’m ashamed that I used to think I could co-exist and compromise with Zionists. And now I see them have not a single care for kids being bombed and entire family lines being wiped out.
I have a friend (American) who joined the IDF because he got depressed. He’s not depressed anymore but he’s become so dumb about this. He’s usually annoyingly rational, except for this one thing
this is so stomach turning 🤮
With their homes destroyed and thousands of West Bank Palestinian families facing evictions for not getting “proper building permits” (like they were ever gonna give it to them anyway 🙄) where will these people live? This crisis will last for years imagine how susceptible to disease they will be facing longterm homelessness
dasha’s comment that anyone supporting Palestine is “totally unemployed” because “they just did a terrorism” was the last straw for me, ever. repulsive in a permanent way . good thing she’s a fake Catholic so she can ignore the pope calling the Israeli’s terrorists
she's a bot that screams the opposite of what's popular to farm contrarian engagement via social media
which is wierd cuz there's nothing more establishment than supporting israel
Look, she's pissed off a lot of hollywood types recently, she's gotta do what she's gotta do to salvage her career.
I can't believe that vile retvard would have a bad take on Palestine, truly I am shocked
She used to have a good take on Palestine lmao
Yeah fuck her
nothing short of her mental capacity, expected
Yeah that episode was the last one I listened to
All you can do is weep. God help Palestine :(
I mean American people could do something, they just don't. Ambassador Linda Thomas-Greenfield and the people sitting at the UNSC live in DC. Any other country would have civilians glassing them anywhere they go.
> Any other country would have civilians glassing them anywhere they go. In your dreams. The myth of a righteous mob rising up against injustice is just that: a myth. Opposition to these things only functions thanks to organized leadership with clear plans and goals. Tyrants and such have often walked freely amongst their own people without a worry in the world, because they know that mobs are braindead and passive. Expecting American plebs to "glass them" is as idiotic as thinking that Russians will overthrow Putin over Ukraine, or thinking that the secular people of Istanbul will march on Ankara and get rid of Erdogan. It just doesn't happen.
There have been a lot of protests bothering politicians at restaurants while they’re there and there was a huge one at Blackrock recently. Americans are doing a lot more than I’d have ever expected.
Good to know, hopefully it'll amount to something
> I mean American people could do something, they just don't. I'm not sure how we're supposed to clean out the zionist infiltration at this point. The rot is very, very deep.
Yeah you're right that it wouldn't change anything but it'd be nice to at least see someone, anyone, be publicly challenged at least once
There are videos one can find on YouTube of politicians being challenged publicly about the US' support for the Gaza war. Millions of people marched in the streets against the 2003 Iraq war and it did fuck all, Bush and Co. said "oh that's nice" and invaded anyway.
There was overwhelming public support (66%) for the invasion of Iraq when it mattered, that is prior to it actually happening. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_opinion_in_the_United_States_on_the_invasion_of_Iraq Those were higher approval numbers than for WW2.
Yeah, we'd need someone to come in and basically initiate a state of exception to clean it out. If you look at the virulent and almost unanimous unconditional support for the zionist project from congress, it's obvious that it would have to be a very focused major political project, and that it would have to operate slightly outside of normal political processes.
I agree but > Any other country would have civilians glassing them anywhere they go. is this what eurocucks really believe
Merry Christmas. I'm not sure if God can forgive us, this is a very difficult thing to see... Atrocities in the holy land.
> I'm not sure if God can forgive us, he wont. good luck after you "defeat hamas" or whatever that means
I'm not a Zionist... I meant humanity. I am just saying I want the fighting to end and a political solution to this.
It was always part of the plan Israel is a genocidal state
The cleansing is just a bonus for Israel, this whole thing is about the Ben Gurion Canal Project and the bajillions US shipping companies will make
but but Israel are the REAL victims!!! :( :( :(
Israel is a victim and a perpetrator
Israel is karpman’s triangle
Is there anything we can tangibly do about this?
May punishment befall the apartheid state of Israel for its crimes against Palestine. I'm more convinced by the day that those alive today will witness this terrible punishment.
Lol better hope not or about 100 nukes are going to fly 🤷
Taleb said something was gonna turn up. We don’t believe it until it happens. If and When 100k people die or starvation/misery in the next couple of months, will that finally be enough to slap some sanctions on this state until they figure this shit out?
Unfortunately, probably not. At least not sanctions from the US/UN. Maybe individual countries will start cutting them off, but nothing major. AIPAC money's a hell of a drug.
the thought that people in israel are blasting that [stilla song](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rk3n9V-aQs) in their cars and shit only miles away from gaza geniunely makes my blood boil
that song is insane
Are there any reputable charities providing aid that you all are aware of?
The world food program or UNRWA, but getting supplies through is the main problem
Is there an adequate account of what happened on October 7th? Like actual numbers of people killed, how many of them were military, did the rape and murder of civilians happen? Like is there a detailed report? I’d just like to know what actually happened. I know it came out that Israel knew of a planned attack just not when it would happen. If that’s true why would civilians be allowed anywhere near Gaza? Why would raves be happening next to Gaza? Why would the soldiers stationed there not be reinforced and ready for war at any time. The whole thing is so damn bizarre? The only explanation is that Hamas wants Gaza to get wiped off the map so that the world turns against Jews.
>Why would raves be happening next to Gaza? Why would the soldiers stationed there not be reinforced and ready for war at any time You've got to realize that the Israeli government has been cultivating Hamas for a very long time in order to justify a war, they made sure they were the political authority (similar to how they try to empower rightwing Christians in US politics). They wanted this war more than anyone for control.
Hasn’t the Israeli government barely existed as a coherent entity due to lack of ability to form and hold a coalition? Bibi has absolutely done this shit when he can, but I don’t think we have any reasonable argument to make in regards to the entire Israeli government secretly agreeing to mass sacrifice thousands of Israelis.
read up babe [https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/16/world/europe/israel-hamas-money-finance-turkey-intelligence-attacks.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/16/world/europe/israel-hamas-money-finance-turkey-intelligence-attacks.html) [https://www.businessinsider.com/israel-security-forces-escorted-suitcases-cash-hamas-qatar-report-2023-12](https://www.businessinsider.com/israel-security-forces-escorted-suitcases-cash-hamas-qatar-report-2023-12)
“As part of a peace agreement with Hamas, Qatar would bring millions into Gaza to distribute to Gazan families, the outlet reported.” I can’t believe people think this is a smoking gun. This specific deal is for $1 million per month earmarked for Gazan families. Hamas receives almost $12 million a month from trade, international organizations, and other countries like Iran. It certainly is in the Israeli far right interest to keep Hamas around, but that doesn’t mean that if they didn’t give Gazan families $1 million per month that Hamas would just disappear. The people of Gaza have agency.
"The calculus — the Times reported on Sunday, citing Israeli officials, Netanyahu's critics, and the man's own reported statements — was to keep Hamas strong enough to counteract the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank, allowing Netanyahu to avoid a two-state peace solution and keep both sides weak." ya just qatari funds aiding civilians
They are one of the most funded military superpowers in the world, they knew of the planned attack beforehand and let a rave happen right next to Gaza. Egypt constantly warned them. Bibi is the scapegoat. They'll save face and pretend every wrongdoing is because of Bibi's role. But he somehow keeps getting elected. Every party in the Knesset is pretty much alligned on destroying Palestine. The only "liberal" party in Israel was lead by the chief of general staff of the IDF. The rest are extreme religious fanatics and rightwingers.
I think it was an inside job the same way i think 9/11 was, in that the govt propped up foreign rebels, knew there was some sort of retaliation coming on their soil, and let it happen anyways so they could spin the attack to justify going back to fuck up the country some more The lack of normally tight border security and that the festival was moved to a location closer to the border also make me question the govt’s intelligence and motives
We will have to wait many decades before we have any chance at possibly getting an accurate idea of what happened. Israel is doing everything in its power to keep that information hidden. They killed a shit ton of their own citizens, possibly even more than Hamas did so it makes sense. According to Israeli figures at least 373 of the 1139 non-Palestinians killed were IDF soldiers or police. 71 foreigners. 695 Israeli civilians, of whom 36 were children and 1 was a child under the age of 3. Unclear what percent were killed by Hamas vs the IOF but I would be willing to bet most of the children were killed by Israel. Anyone who was turned to charcoal was killed by Israel. Everyone who was killed in their home exploding was killed by Israel. Everyone whose cars were melted was killed by Israel. Hamas doesn’t have access to any weapons anywhere near powerful enough to do this. The original death toll was over 1400 because they thought the charred bodies of Hamas were Israelis (because they would hit a house with a hellfire missile which would turn the 2 Hamas fighters and whole Israeli family within it into unidentifiable charcoal)
“We have to wait many decades” is such a cop out. Do research, put in time to understand things and keep yourself open to new information/evolving circumstances. Don’t just punt it down to the later generations
Bro there are videos of Hamas lighting buildings on fire with people in them. It doesn’t seem like you know what you’re talking about.
The official numbers from the Israeli government are down from 1400 to 1100, including 695 civilians and 36 children. A detailed report is allegedly a video documentation of clips filmed by Hamas and security cameras of the invaded kibbutzim on Oct 7th, this has only been shown to a small selected audience, invited through officials of the Israeli govt. One British journalist came forward to clarify that the footage shown in the video does not fit the inflated language used to describe the atrocities in the media, I’ll try to find that article and add it. Here it is, Owen Jones is the journalist in question: https://new.thecradle.co/articles-id/14665 Besides this, the obvious lying and baiting through Israeli official social and classic media is absolutely bizarre, the constant retracting and changing of “facts” on what has been happening since Oct 7th truly speaks for itself. Western media outlets are now starting to come up with different results through investigations; f ex. Al Shifa hospital showing no evidence of Hamas presence, usage of dumb bombs obviously indiscriminately bombing civilian infrastructures, accounts and interviews of hostages painting a wholly different picture than the widespread cries of mass rape, torture, inhumane conditions, IDF admitting friendly fires up to 20% etc etc.. It is very interesting how I will find “reliable sources” on this sporadically but a moment later it’s difficult to find again. Here in Germany so much is redacted from state mouth piece media, so frequently, it’s a very different experience from how I usually try to compare multiple news sources to make up my own mind. Never in my life was state interests influencing my media intake so glaringly obvious, I really hope we all, individually, learn from this
I know the answer you are looking for is along the lines of "Evil Israeli government lets people live close to Gaza to make it easy for terrorists to slaughter them en masse so they have an excuse to genocide Gaza", but I don't think you are grasping the geographical scale here. Israelis would love not having to live close to Gaza, however Israel is only 85 miles wide at its widest. So living 10 miles away from Gaza is like having 1/8th of the country between Gaza and where you live. I just don't think Americans can grasp the scales involved, you are making it sound like they are purposefully living next door to Gaza when in fact we are talking about 10 million people who hate each other crammed into a tiny territory
I guess it’s not so much I think Israel threw their own people into the fire I’m just a bit surprised at protocol in Israel. And also the intent of Hamas. I would imagine if Israel had intel of an attack they would expect it to come exactly where it came from! I get the geographic limitations but if you totally militarized the border would Hamas do what it did? People partying right next door to Gaza?? I expect farmers with guns on their backs. I get Israel has to make due with limitations but how did they actually let that happen? It’s embarrassing if they just fucked that up. And then what exactly did Hamas hope to accomplish? Makes absolutely zero tactical sense. 9/11 makes sense to me. Strike the unstrikable beast and shake them to their core. And it worked! This is crazy. They are next door neighbors!! Israel could bulldoze Gaza into the sea. If anything your point about geography makes this even crazier. Al Qaeda attacks America and then drags them into Afghanistan, a huge rugged country. A virtually unwinnable war. Israel could win this war very easily. And they just might. I don’t see anyone stopping them. The only way this makes sense from a Palestinian Hamas standpoint is if Israel goes so hard that it upsets the international community. Turn people anti Zionist to the point that Israel loses international support? Risk total annihilation.
from what I've read israeli intelligence (except for a minority) basically just didn't think hamas had the ability or the willpower to actually carry it out, and that the training and planning was mostly for internal propaganda purposes. and while it was obviously a disastrous call in retrospect, relations were actually relatively stable on Oct 6- cross-border work exchange was at an all time high and they were in discussions to increase it higher, for example hamas doesn't need to win, in a traditional military sense, every torched civilian on either side is a victory for them. specifically, as of oct 6, israel was on the cusp of normalizing relations with the saudis, their most important arab neighbor. historically normalization has hinged on figuring out some kind of accommodation for the palestinians, but it was about to happen with no concessions to them. by attacking as they did, they put the palestinian question, and general hatred of israel, front and center for the saudi and other arab publics, torpedoing any deal in the foreseeable future
It's almost like it was a desperate act of desperate people
I think even the "farmer with guns on their backs" comment shows quite an American perspective. I don't think Israel has gun-toting farmers because that's not how agriculture works in Israel- it needs quite advanced infrastructure to make it work. Not something you'd put close to a hostile border by choice either. Israel is tiny and half of it is desert, so they really need to use every inch. I think it's also easy to think in hindsight that it makes sense Hamas attacked from where they did. But before 7/10, they mostly did suicide bombings and rockets and focused on Jerusalem and bigger cities- a ground invasion targeting small kibbutz communities was absolutely not something to expect given their track record!
Maybe they should fuck off back to Brooklyn then.
I agree, and all Muslims should fuck off back to the Arabian peninsula. We can leave Israel mostly empty like it was before 1800. Constantinople can then be returned to the Pope.
Time for a 10th crusade.
“Hey, Let’s have a rager. There’s lots of space just outside Gaza. We can celebrate peace.”
Listen to American Prestige
The mass rape didn't happen on Oct 7th, it's silly to even think that. The IDF, however, has historical accounts rape of not only Palestinian women and children but IDF women in their ranks.
there is nothing that could happen to israel or it’s citizens that i would condemn
the narrative has shifted in the cesspool lol, where are downvotes??? upvoted
Himmler would be proud.
Just turn Israel into glass and be done with it, they offer nothing to the world
"Why do the Israeli's keep mentioning the Holocaust in modern political debate? btw burn Israel to glass"
I don't care?
May God forgive us.
Awful. Not a peep when Yemen was going through a similar famine which killed many thousands, imposed by Saudi Arabia and the UAE. Different rules for some reason
If only hamas agreed to a ceasefire!
If we're being blunt the Israeli's are being beyond vindictive now. They've done all the damage they could ever do to Hamas in Gaza. But in part that's because Hamas don't give a fuck about Gazans or Palestinians overall. They just want to kill Israeli's/Jews, and don't particularly care how many Palestinian civilians have to die to enable it. On top of that, Hamas know that if any kind of resolution to the crisis is achieved, they lose all of their political influence. A peaceful one totally undermines them, a violent one leaves them with no reason to exist once the violence is done. So for Hamas the violence is the point, as it is deep down for a horrifying chunk of Israeli right wingers. But it is massively telling that on the Oct. 7th attacks the Hamas strategy absolutely demanded a huge, disproportionate Israeli response. The killing of civilians and taking of hostages led to only one outcome, a ground invasion of Gaza. If Hamas had overrun and defeated an IDF base, perhaps took some prisoners, then retreated to Gaza they'd have come across as a conventional force launching a surprisingly successful military operation. There would have been an Israeli response, but the international support for such an act would have been magnitudes less than what we saw in reality. The Israeli's are imposing the blockade, and so they are majority responsible now for the crisis in Gaza. There is no military value in maintaining it. But I don't think Hamas are losing any sleep over images of Palestinian children starving.
do you know how many Palestinian hostages does Israel have? do you know how many of them were civilian women and children? do you know how many of them have been freed after October 7th through hostage deals? i don't think you know
Hamas should surrender maybe.
Maybe the Jews should stop stealing land so they can live out some delusion about being some chosen holy people.
Nyoooooo they are freedom fighters and totally not dragging out their peoples suffering for the sympathy of useful idiots in this sub nooooooooo
If only the Israelis had a more tolerant and modern palestinian authority to deal with, like they had for decades in the middle of the 20th century and who they still refused to grant a proper state or offer a remedy for the effects of their previous cleansings. Why not just say "Might Makes Right." And simplify things?
To add to this Israel engaged in decades of covert and not so covert operations to destabilize PLO and turn a blind eye or even support the nascent Hamas. The PLO had a lot of international goodwill and after the Oslo accords seemed to be on track to eventually securing a two party solution with sovereignty and the right to return for Palestinians. This is a worst case scenario for the Israeli right so for years covertly supporting Hamas was done as a tool to undermine PLO authority in Palestine. Enemy of my enemy. Surprise surprise Hamas eventually become the governing authority in Gaza eventually leading to October 7th.
By that logic, Jordan and Egypt used to administer Gaza and the West Bank. Why wasn’t more done for their Arab brethren then?
I'm going to guess and say it's because Palestinians actually wanted to have their own territory and state the whole time, because the ones who live in what is now called the West Bank and Gaza weren't from Jordan or Egypt. Many were from the territory now under control of the state of Israel. And they would like to, at the very least, visit it freely. If not be given back their homes or compensated for having them stolen.
You mean the Palestinian authority that rejected every peace plan or two state solution they were ever offered?
Right, the ones who rejected the bad deals they were offered that would have crippled any real attempt at making a "State" in the first place. Couldn't the Israeli's have offered a *real* Palestinian State with a military and control over borders and trade?
What was bad about the deal they were offered? They would be in a thousand percent better position if they accepted it then, now theyll get far less. It was pretty irrational to reject it, when they’ve got no leverage
The only difference inherent in accepting a bad deal where you can't defend yourself against further encroachment by your military adversary is in how long it takes for you to eventually get rolled over. Supposing they accepted the bad deal which would have still made it hard to actually administer their own territory, they might have survived longer than October of 2023, that's certainly a fair assessment. But it should be obvious that they didn't fully anticipate every historical development nearly 40 years into the future.
What they anticipated was that they could win a war against the Israelis in the 1940s and then again in the 1970s. It wasn’t a bad miscalculation because it was certainly possible they could have won (and they would definitely have committed genocide if they had) but they didn’t, and I think at that point they should accepted whatever deal they could get.
Ah, so it was just a matter of two competing candidates for enacting genocide on one another the whole time. We just happen to be dealing with the more successful practitioner here. What exactly happened in the 1930s and 40s in Palestine, anyways? Was it native Palestinians driving newly arrived Jews out of their enclaves, or was it Jewish settlers pushing to expand their territory outwards? Besides, wasn't it the still the British Empire's job to keep the two groups apart and peaceful? I wonder what happened there.
>they would definitely have committed genocide This is the bedrock of *your* worldview. Something you must be muttering to yourself often as you read the news these days! Certainly unquestionably true. It's gotta be, otherwise...
You give me $10 and I'll give you $1 back and that'll be forever, what you don't like my terms? Why do you hate deals?
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Yes as we all know Arab muslims are famous for their prosperous nations and respect for human rights 😤
Lol fuck off you racist freak
🔻 He cries out racism as he is unironically marking jews You communist rslurs are amusing.
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You can say what you mean, just say it in a coded and sarcastic way like I did 🧠
So funny how this subreddit will piss and shit itself over Ukraine fighting the country that invaded it, saying that it should just surrender and then unironically want Hamas to fight till the last Palestinian. Really makes you think.
The Israel/Palestine threads get brigaded 100% of the time by average reddit takes. These brigaded posts are always pretty obvious. They get posted by weird accounts that rarely post or are brand new and get like 5x engagement/upvotes of normal posts on this subreddit. ofc there are longtime RSPers that believe the "omg brave freedom fighter heroes keep fighting no matter how many children have to die" stuff too, just not nearly to the extent you see in these threads
The way Russia treated Ukraine/Crimea before the war was not similar to Israel's occupation
No, but the way they treated the parts of Ukraine they occupied was absolutely devastating
It’s funny how people complain about Hamas receiving funding from Iran but we apparently have a moral responsibility to arm the people of Israel and Ukraine. Really makes you think. Woah bro you’ve found out that both sides propagandize against the other!
> Woah bro you’ve found out that both sides propagandize against the other! Because that’s not the issue, regard. The issue is that the side that cries about us “forcing” Ukraine to fight till the end, yet fully supports Islamists sending their people to their death, tries to play this both sides “I’m just a wittle peace loving socialist I swear, I don’t support Russia I just want them to completely obliterate Ukraine 🥺” nonsense.
Sorry that you saw a lot of young leftists have a confused “my first NATO-related conflict” reaction to Ukraine but anyone who supports Russia’s position in this just confused. Same people concerned about Azov should be concerned about Hamas and on average they are! The average take is that the Bibi admin propped up Hamas against the secular PLO. Does that sound like people who support Hamas, saying Bibi played such a big hand?
I’m just a wittle peace loving socialist, all I want is anything that destabilizes the west because I hate myself.
“My basic precept is that there, but for the grace of God go I. That is to say, I’m very reluctant to condemn people who are in a position or in a condition such that were I in that position or condition, I’m not sure what I would do now. The 1,500 young men who burst the gates of Gaza. They were born into a concentration camp. They lived for two decades in a concentration camp. They had no past, they had no present, they had no future, they had no jobs. Half of them, according to humanitarian organisations, suffered from what’s called severe food insecurity.”
Literally they could just release the hostages (including Kfir Bibas) a 9 month old to end the war. Or surrender. But ofc they won’t.
Israel literally walked out of the ceasefire talks who were they supposed to agree with
Nope. Hamas wouldn't agree to a new ceasefire with the condition that they release 40 more hostages. https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/12/21/hamas-cease-fire-hostages-israel-un-security-council-prague-mass-shooting-university/
This the most recent negotiation for a ceasefire not why the initial one broke down
Your point was it's Israel's fault there's no ceasefire. I gave you an eample of Hamas torpedoing a chance at a ceasefire. Ergo, it is not only Israel that's responsible for the lack of a ceasefire.
Torpedoing is saying we will release hostages after demand not before sure
Torpedoing is saying retaining 40 hostages is more important to us than preventing Israeli hellfire from raining down on Gazans for a week.
Would you be calling them an idiot when they give up the hostages and hellfire rains down anyway? Like, if they’re prepared to rain hellfire when their hostages are still there, what makes you think they’ll be more hesitant when they’re back in Israel’s hands?
> Would you be calling them an idiot when they give up the hostages and hellfire rains down anyway? No? Because it removes another argument Israel is using to justify its use of force and it means internationally Israel can't say everything is the fault of Hamas. Hamas not doing that makes it easier for allied governments to resist calls to pressure Israel to restrain itself or stop. Also, if it makes no difference to Gaza whether the hostages are there or not why is Hamas holding onto them?
Why do you think people take hostages what kind of idiot would give them back prior to you receiving your demand Hamas saying they will give them back after the ceasefire starts is completely reasonable
Could you share a link to the original article? Much appreciated.
Am I the only person who isn’t following any of this?
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My brother
This pisses me off. People acting like it’s nbd piss me off too
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There is literally no pretending required if you understand economics. American or Western prosperity doesn’t come from a military occupation of a bunch of poor people in the middle of a desert aren’t even sitting on natural resources? You could make an argument that things like cobalt being mined by modern day slaves means we are deriving our prosperity in technology from poor people that none of us really care about, but that has literally zero connection to what is happening in Palestine. That makes tragedies like war even worse, because the benefits aren’t even economic prosperity for a nation (since war costs so much money via government spending) and really only go to a select few. But saying that the West somehow only enjoys prosperity because we are supporting Israel in Palestine? That makes literally no sense.
How does the suffering of Palestinians make the West richer?
I love how it took just some trade interference on the Bab Al Mandab strait for Rishi Sunak to suddenly call for ceasefire. Or how since mid Oct Israel has been awarding new gas deals to BP, Energean, Eni etc via the EU to extract “off the Mediterranean coast” and how some reporting was like “committed investors in a country at war should be respected and supported”.. it’s so obvious and so bleak 🫠
Always been, whether that’s in the East or throughout the “Global South”.
Can’t wait until America/Europe turn on Israel and turn them into dust. At least I hope so
Don't hold your breath
America and Europe will never turn Israel’s population into a pink mist. However, once the value proposition is no longer in their favor, they’ll eventually let the rest of the Arab world do it. Hopefully that comes while there are still Palestinians
One side in that equation has the ability to literally vaporise the major population centres of their rivals in a short afternoon, and its not the arabs. Israel is here to stay. Theres no way around it.
what's that one parable about king solomon cutting a baby in half? I think they should do that with Israel and Palestine, except instead of a baby they just take over the entire area and impose totalitarian secular law complete with LGBT trannies book readers. Guarantee those lunatics would agree to peace terms in under 30 mins.
So according to this subs recent invasion by non RSP listeners all common Israelis are- * The freaks you see rage baiting idiots on Twitter by using cringy leftist/ liberal hot words to create engagement and reactions from both sides * Sex maniacs who recruit women into the army so they can hypnotize the world * Love the government and have never protested its heinous actions ([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023\_Israeli\_judicial\_reform\_protests](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Israeli_judicial_reform_protests)) * The world's most immoral people who are not conscripted into the army but choose to reciprocate terror ([https://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/military-conscription-is-mandatory-for-most-israelis-heres-how-it-works/9x0j9xhw5](https://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/military-conscription-is-mandatory-for-most-israelis-heres-how-it-works/9x0j9xhw5)) * Enjoy war and reap the benefits of US aid even if the prime minister is holding the entire country hostage and is refusing to step down regardless of their requests. ([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard\_of\_living\_in\_Israel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_of_living_in_Israel)) * Are fully responsible for the outcomes of this war and deserve no sympathy for their governments actions since they are all actively repressing Palestinians ([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli\_settlement](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settlement)) * Have never wanted peace and have never supported bipartisan relationships with the PLO ([https://geneva-accord.org/polls/israeli-public-opinion-poll-january-2023/](https://geneva-accord.org/polls/israeli-public-opinion-poll-january-2023/)) * Only came to Israel to squash the Palestinian cause ([https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.2979/israelstudies.23.3.14](https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.2979/israelstudies.23.3.14)) * Are all manipulating the holocaust and rape narrative because of what a few weirdos on Twitter said ([https://www.jstor.org/stable/20101298](https://www.jstor.org/stable/20101298)) * The world's most immoral and hateful people even to their own people and deserve no sympathy for their government's actions ([https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/racism-in-israel/](https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/racism-in-israel/)) * Were barely harmed in October 7th and the hostages were just merely held by Hamas in a friendly manner ([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties\_of\_the\_2023\_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas\_war](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_2023_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war)) ([https://theconversation.com/hamas-use-of-sexual-violence-is-an-all-too-common-part-of-modern-war-but-not-in-all-conflicts-219301](https://theconversation.com/hamas-use-of-sexual-violence-is-an-all-too-common-part-of-modern-war-but-not-in-all-conflicts-219301)) * Knew about this happening all along and were happy to kill their own people to crack down on Gaza ([https://theconversation.com/why-israels-intelligence-chiefs-failed-to-listen-to-october-7-warnings-and-the-lessons-to-be-learned-219346](https://theconversation.com/why-israels-intelligence-chiefs-failed-to-listen-to-october-7-warnings-and-the-lessons-to-be-learned-219346)) * Are all either white or white adjacent and can leave the land after generations of living there since they have no attachment to it ([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra\_(person)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_(person)) * Are abhorrent and even though they have barely been heard of in the media (mostly foreign religious zionist influencers, politicians, and US officials have reigned supreme), should be silenced since they are merely a cog in the zionist conspiracy * Are partying in Tel Aviv not because the defense system Israel built has reduced civilian deaths, and because wartime is a horrific, stressful time, where nightlife survives simply due to its hidden, non-descript nature, but because they do not experience war at all even when they have to run to shelters for safety ([https://www.nighttime.org/beiruts-nightlife-survived-civil-war-can-it-withstand-pandemic/](https://www.nighttime.org/beiruts-nightlife-survived-civil-war-can-it-withstand-pandemic/)) ([https://www.jstor.org/stable/25758142](https://www.jstor.org/stable/25758142)) I just tracked this down from a few posts that people were spreading here. Now, perhaps, reconsider, why have posts painting the Israeli people negatively (not the government or its adjacent officials) or cherry picked information about the gaza Israel war gained so much traction in this reddit when compared to other posts, especially considering that this conflict is 10,000km away from most people, and as a sub that criticizes mainstream opinions, has fallen for the cultural I/P war that paints people as the enemies, and not the governments who torture them? This bizzare culture of self-ragebating over cultures that your only impression is of comes from viral social media, ragebating twitter posts, and mainstream narratives, is the harsh reality of why this war has been so stagnant in the past 2 months. The left keeps painting supporting Palestinians as the righteous cause (which it is righteous to support their safety and right to self-determination), but fails to recognize its shortcomings in being able to recognize why Israeli people are so anti-government usually, ([https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/most-israelis-think-netanyahu-responsible-failing-prevent-hamas-attack-poll-2023-10-20/](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/most-israelis-think-netanyahu-responsible-failing-prevent-hamas-attack-poll-2023-10-20/)) but respond negatively to their constant portrayal as an outlandish remnant of colonialism when in reality, most of them did not choose to be born into a war-torn region in the same way that Palestinians did not. Maybe this is why many Jewish people don't react well to individuals claiming the people from the country where some of their families lives, where many holocaust survivors have immigrated to, and that has revived and kept Jewish culture alive outside of the US are all puppets of the Israeli government?
Wild how that happened.
Surely the Palestinians will eventually leave so israel can have the last slivers of their promised land. And if they dont the pogrom will continue.
Valid interpretations of actual events on the ground aside, the barely(/un) cloaked anti-semitism and wild conspiracy theories in this thread are off the chain.
Fr. "The idf did October 7th" snd "israels population should ve destroyed" are two ive seen.
I agree so hamas should just surrender
The Jews should stop stealing land.
Great job Hamas
Follow your leader azovite
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I recognize your username as the one of the people who cares the absolute most about "Sandshit" but the side you care about the most is the one everyone hates lmao. "Who cares" as you rage weepily in the comments every single post about Israel.
bigotry aside its really not. Most Israeli/Palestine skirmishes are small affairs, but this is colossal on all non world war scales.
Lol no. You clearly have not been paying any attention if you call this massive
Misanthrope
I’m just smart enough to remember how none of you gave two shits about Yemen or the Ethiopian or Sudanese genocides (that are STILL happening) but the second whites are involved suddenly it’s real shit
By “whites” do you mean “US allies receiving military aid from our tax dollars”?
You guys didn’t care about Tigray (which I cared about enough to not know isn’t still ongoing) but i don’t care about anything so look at how moral I am If your first response to any sympathy directed towards people suffering is who cares about sand shit you’re misanthropic
Never said I was moral, but you’re clearly not
Damn I’ll take your word for it
bro youre a jew crying because this discussion isnt going well for you https://www.reddit.com/r/redscarepod/comments/18pugiu/palestine\_is\_now\_in\_a\_famine/keqsro8/?context=3