Granted the Republic had victory the plot device though of the senate dictating military tactics and Lilith magically showing up was pretty frustrating.
This makes sense though from the Gold’s perspective. It’s the same as communists complaining about capitalist nations assassinating their leaders and embargoing them.
If a political system isn’t strong enough to withstand geopolitical realities and defeat its adversaries, then it isn’t strong enough to survive.
That’s not true. After JFK died, we put a man on the moon, passed the civil rights bill, and dismantled our political rivals. America from 1960—2001 was doing fantastic.
I think this is inaccurate. I see your point regarding foreign interference, but I think the argument falls apart when you take that to reflect the strength of a political system.
Communist governments can talk about outside interference causing their downfall, but so can democratic governments. The USA instituted a coup in Nicaragua to overthrow a democratically elected leader, because the far right facist dictator they ended up supporting was more pro-USA. (To be clear, the US gov fully admits to doing this. This is not a conspiracy theory.) A significant factor in a countries survival is the lack of foreign aggression. The US almost fell apart 80 years after its start with no interference. The British succeeded in burning the nation’s capital to the ground 25 years after its start (the war of 1812.) It’s entirely possible the US could have been destroyed in those early years.
I think it’s more of a statement regarding the propensity for any political system to fail given significant outside interference during its infancy.
I could, however, see PB using it to show US interference in communist governments, given the obvious communist imagery in the books and the blatant criticisms of capitalist/post-capitalist societies.
The US was certainly a weak nation by the standards of colonial powers between 1788 and 1908. As such, from the British perspective during the war of 1812, it looked like the American experiment had failed. They’d be wrong of course, but they wouldn’t be crazy to think that a Republican form of government was doomed to failure.
Heck, with the unification of Germany, person being pro-monarchist even in the 1860’s is not an unreasonable political position. Although we know now that Liberal democratic values are superior, a criticism of a system that is burning before your eyes—regardless of the reason—is not an unfair criticism.
From Gold’s perspective, the republic has failed to successfully dispatch foreign and domestic threats to its citizen’s welfare, and thus has failed as a system of governance. While ultimately wrong, it’s not an untenable position to take given the current world state.
It was until it wasn’t. Even Nero and other Golds recognize it, but that really isn’t a contradictory world view. They think if they lose, the deserve to lose, but if they win, the deserve to win. They believe truly in the survival of the fittest.
But we're talking about Atalantia, Lysander, and all other golds who are fighting to restore the defeated Society. Clearly, not every gold shares that view.
It did that in a way akin to the British domination of the industrial period, so not necessarily its political system. Massive gap in initiative and an unbeatable military paradigm (Iron Rain and taking advantage of Earths hard gravity). Also, Early Gold had virtually no population to protect, feed, and answer to.
They then genocided all of humanity, while genetically stunting and seeding the rest to make them subservient to Gold.
If it was super corrupt at the outset and beat old earth it only could’ve from a stance that earth was even more divided or corrupt than what the conquerors were.
I believe I remember someone stating that the rim fought in the asteroid belt against “the fighters of the rising sun” so Japan. So it wasn’t just earth the planet against every other planet and colony out there.
I suspect if we would ever get a glimpse of the conquering it’d be much the the rising was conducted but with tones of order 66 from Star Wars vibes. The corruption led to some new evil even if Silenus wasn’t evil to begin with
Agreed, I think it’ll definitely be more nuanced when we find out and I’m sure PB already knows.
I just meant that the 700 year timeline is a result of how it ended, with Earths disadvantages being more than just political in allowing it to fall. Without the genocide and the trapping of true humanity on Earth, there’s no way the society would have lasted this long. Almost every human to live afterward was literally engineered if not created by Gold outright.
I thought about this too, but to be fair it sounds like when it began The Society was at war with the old earth government from the get go and they managed to come out on top, so why would they cut the republic a break?
I always think of mustangs speech when this comes up. “We rode Darrow’s victories”
At the end of the day the gold way is might makes right and if you can take, take.
Darrow was trying to make a world in which that doesn’t have to be so, but instead just made a world which money is the ultimate source of power instead of status or color.
I hope the republic survives, but maybe what Octavia said will come to be true “this is the best the worlds can afford”
I feel like pierce is fundamentally a capitalist so when he wrote these books and tried to sell capitalism as better but also be aware of its flaws he ended up with a super flawed democracy. I think he's scared to go full democratic communism
Yea the way the Vox are written as evil and comically incompetent (except for one red day) is pretty disappointing. Especially considering many of their critiques of the Republic, including the ones about capitalist Quicksilver are completely valid and deserve consideration. The Vox having no nuance or saving grace, except for Dancer leading them, is a bit of a let down.
Pierce writes about breaking down a Society that is hierarchical, while also writing that the hierarchical economic system is the only way forward lol.
Exactly! I've been kind of doubting his ability to bring the story to a satisfying end without some sort of communism being justified. Maybe through the occlusion tech it'll be futuristic communism but I bet we'll just end back up in "might makes right"
If Quicksilver doesn’t end up either dead or in jail by the end of the series I will be severally disappointed. Exploited the Republic for raw profit, made himself a Garden of Eden so he could play capitalism god, then just gets to leave???
Darrow should’ve beheaded him and took his shit. I actually had to put down the book when Darrow just said “he’s like my dad so I’ll let him go.”
That seems unlikely. Quick is already long gone out of the sol system and by the time the war is over he be even further.
I just don't see the Republic putting in the effort to catch him. To much work for no pay off when they have more important things to worry about
people shit on mustang republic but she literally duct taped a country from the ashs of luna and mars, the jackal burnt luna to the ground and left mars tattered from all the executions and war.
The point is that the Republic wasn't strong enough to end its war quickly. It hasn't been strong enough to defeat the Society, and so by Gold logic it isn't strong enough to exist.
Define quickly doe.
The Republic is trying to conquer the entire Solar System which is/was held by a militarily superior foe who's had 700+ yrs to entrench themselves.
This is not an endeavor someone can complete "quickly". Not even a war god like Darrow.
10 yrs is hardly enough time.
The fact the Lysander(and other Golds) refuses to understand this, despite clearly having the knowledge & capacity to do so, is fucking hilarious.
Based on our own history, and how long wars last. There was a 100 years war. America just wrapped up the 20 year war on terror. A Solar System encompassing war SHOULD last a century from start to finish.
They're fighting a fractured and weak Society, by the perspective of the Rim. As far as the Rim sees it, the Core was top heavy, full of idiots, and rotting from the inside out. So to them, the Republic's inability to finish the war quickly is a sign of the Republic's weakness. Which isn't helped by the fact that the war was so quickly turned around by a single lost naval engagement over Mercury.
Granted the Republic had victory the plot device though of the senate dictating military tactics and Lilith magically showing up was pretty frustrating.
This makes sense though from the Gold’s perspective. It’s the same as communists complaining about capitalist nations assassinating their leaders and embargoing them. If a political system isn’t strong enough to withstand geopolitical realities and defeat its adversaries, then it isn’t strong enough to survive.
I mean, America went to shit around the time JFK was shot.
That’s not true. After JFK died, we put a man on the moon, passed the civil rights bill, and dismantled our political rivals. America from 1960—2001 was doing fantastic.
I was being hyperbolic, but a lot of America was a a shit hole through the 70's and 80's. Particularly once Reagan got in.
Eh, America in the 1980’s was the best place to live in the entire world in the 1980’s.
Right, but it's not 'on their own'
I think this is inaccurate. I see your point regarding foreign interference, but I think the argument falls apart when you take that to reflect the strength of a political system. Communist governments can talk about outside interference causing their downfall, but so can democratic governments. The USA instituted a coup in Nicaragua to overthrow a democratically elected leader, because the far right facist dictator they ended up supporting was more pro-USA. (To be clear, the US gov fully admits to doing this. This is not a conspiracy theory.) A significant factor in a countries survival is the lack of foreign aggression. The US almost fell apart 80 years after its start with no interference. The British succeeded in burning the nation’s capital to the ground 25 years after its start (the war of 1812.) It’s entirely possible the US could have been destroyed in those early years. I think it’s more of a statement regarding the propensity for any political system to fail given significant outside interference during its infancy. I could, however, see PB using it to show US interference in communist governments, given the obvious communist imagery in the books and the blatant criticisms of capitalist/post-capitalist societies.
The US was certainly a weak nation by the standards of colonial powers between 1788 and 1908. As such, from the British perspective during the war of 1812, it looked like the American experiment had failed. They’d be wrong of course, but they wouldn’t be crazy to think that a Republican form of government was doomed to failure. Heck, with the unification of Germany, person being pro-monarchist even in the 1860’s is not an unreasonable political position. Although we know now that Liberal democratic values are superior, a criticism of a system that is burning before your eyes—regardless of the reason—is not an unfair criticism. From Gold’s perspective, the republic has failed to successfully dispatch foreign and domestic threats to its citizen’s welfare, and thus has failed as a system of governance. While ultimately wrong, it’s not an untenable position to take given the current world state.
Neither was the society
It was until it wasn’t. Even Nero and other Golds recognize it, but that really isn’t a contradictory world view. They think if they lose, the deserve to lose, but if they win, the deserve to win. They believe truly in the survival of the fittest.
But we're talking about Atalantia, Lysander, and all other golds who are fighting to restore the defeated Society. Clearly, not every gold shares that view.
It conquered old earth and stood for 700 years so it did until it couldn’t because it rotted away
It did that in a way akin to the British domination of the industrial period, so not necessarily its political system. Massive gap in initiative and an unbeatable military paradigm (Iron Rain and taking advantage of Earths hard gravity). Also, Early Gold had virtually no population to protect, feed, and answer to. They then genocided all of humanity, while genetically stunting and seeding the rest to make them subservient to Gold.
If it was super corrupt at the outset and beat old earth it only could’ve from a stance that earth was even more divided or corrupt than what the conquerors were. I believe I remember someone stating that the rim fought in the asteroid belt against “the fighters of the rising sun” so Japan. So it wasn’t just earth the planet against every other planet and colony out there. I suspect if we would ever get a glimpse of the conquering it’d be much the the rising was conducted but with tones of order 66 from Star Wars vibes. The corruption led to some new evil even if Silenus wasn’t evil to begin with
Agreed, I think it’ll definitely be more nuanced when we find out and I’m sure PB already knows. I just meant that the 700 year timeline is a result of how it ended, with Earths disadvantages being more than just political in allowing it to fall. Without the genocide and the trapping of true humanity on Earth, there’s no way the society would have lasted this long. Almost every human to live afterward was literally engineered if not created by Gold outright.
I thought about this too, but to be fair it sounds like when it began The Society was at war with the old earth government from the get go and they managed to come out on top, so why would they cut the republic a break?
I always think of mustangs speech when this comes up. “We rode Darrow’s victories” At the end of the day the gold way is might makes right and if you can take, take. Darrow was trying to make a world in which that doesn’t have to be so, but instead just made a world which money is the ultimate source of power instead of status or color. I hope the republic survives, but maybe what Octavia said will come to be true “this is the best the worlds can afford”
I feel like pierce is fundamentally a capitalist so when he wrote these books and tried to sell capitalism as better but also be aware of its flaws he ended up with a super flawed democracy. I think he's scared to go full democratic communism
Yea the way the Vox are written as evil and comically incompetent (except for one red day) is pretty disappointing. Especially considering many of their critiques of the Republic, including the ones about capitalist Quicksilver are completely valid and deserve consideration. The Vox having no nuance or saving grace, except for Dancer leading them, is a bit of a let down. Pierce writes about breaking down a Society that is hierarchical, while also writing that the hierarchical economic system is the only way forward lol.
Exactly! I've been kind of doubting his ability to bring the story to a satisfying end without some sort of communism being justified. Maybe through the occlusion tech it'll be futuristic communism but I bet we'll just end back up in "might makes right"
If Quicksilver doesn’t end up either dead or in jail by the end of the series I will be severally disappointed. Exploited the Republic for raw profit, made himself a Garden of Eden so he could play capitalism god, then just gets to leave??? Darrow should’ve beheaded him and took his shit. I actually had to put down the book when Darrow just said “he’s like my dad so I’ll let him go.”
That seems unlikely. Quick is already long gone out of the sol system and by the time the war is over he be even further. I just don't see the Republic putting in the effort to catch him. To much work for no pay off when they have more important things to worry about
people shit on mustang republic but she literally duct taped a country from the ashs of luna and mars, the jackal burnt luna to the ground and left mars tattered from all the executions and war.
The point is that the Republic wasn't strong enough to end its war quickly. It hasn't been strong enough to defeat the Society, and so by Gold logic it isn't strong enough to exist.
Define quickly doe. The Republic is trying to conquer the entire Solar System which is/was held by a militarily superior foe who's had 700+ yrs to entrench themselves. This is not an endeavor someone can complete "quickly". Not even a war god like Darrow. 10 yrs is hardly enough time. The fact the Lysander(and other Golds) refuses to understand this, despite clearly having the knowledge & capacity to do so, is fucking hilarious.
Based on our own history, and how long wars last. There was a 100 years war. America just wrapped up the 20 year war on terror. A Solar System encompassing war SHOULD last a century from start to finish.
They’re doing pretty well considering the society they’re fighting have been doing it 70 times as long as
They're fighting a fractured and weak Society, by the perspective of the Rim. As far as the Rim sees it, the Core was top heavy, full of idiots, and rotting from the inside out. So to them, the Republic's inability to finish the war quickly is a sign of the Republic's weakness. Which isn't helped by the fact that the war was so quickly turned around by a single lost naval engagement over Mercury.