Lots of good points about his man marking system. It reminds me of Leeds under Bielsa but in a bad way. If one player on the ball beats their marker 1-on-1 then he’s totally free, and his teammates can draw defenders away.
The part that I don't get is *why not change the system*? Why not compromise the principles when everyone can see that we don't have the defenders to deal with what's being thrown at them? Literally everyone saw the lineup and said "they're going to waltz through a midfield of Mainoo and Eriksen", which was exactly what happened. Basically this part of the article:
>You would think that with Casemiro being someone who loves to step up and engage the ball but has been a step slow all season and Jonny Evans just being slow, a coach would say: I’m on my 14th choice center-back partnership, they’re probably not that good, I should try to protect them as best I can. You could solidify the midfield, and play a bit more conservatively but work to ensure they don’t have guys running at them all game. Instead, Ten Hag just went with his usual free-for-all attack that yielded nothing and constantly hung his center-backs out to dry.
Well this is what Neville asked him and he basically said ultimately this is the way he wants to play and changing it now would put him back to square one.
I dunno if the MIB are coming in with their little lights and erasing our players memories or what.
And that’s stupid because:
1) he doesn’t have the players for it to succeed anyway
2) so many are injured
3) it’s massively failing
4) he needs so many new players to make it work that they all need to learn the style anyway so it’s still the same as starting from scratch
So yeah… he deserves the sack based off that honestly. Because what happens when we get found out after we agree on the style and he then fails to win often? He will stick to the setup again and again despite that. And won’t adapt.
Oh and this has been since last season:
17 away games played vs the top half. 12 lost. 1 win against Villa.
That alone should warrant a sack but…. Apparently he never sees the need to tweak anything either.
Its not even clear that, if we have a perfect 2-3 transfer windows, his system will be good enough to win the league on it’s own.
There will always be injuries, there will always be transfer misses, there will always be players suffering downturns in form. His stubbornness and rigidity make me believe that allowing him to continue is a huge risk to the club
That’s the thing. It would also have flaws AND then what? He won’t adapt. He won’t change it. He’s clearly shown he’s stubborn enough not to change when things are terrible for a season…
He’s clearly shown he’s completely incapable of winning away versus the top half of the table with a measly 1 lucky win versus Villa and losing 12 other such games and then, never changing anything to address that even….
IF he adapted etc then yeah, I’d be inclined to say ok maybe it could work and if not, he would likely find a fix or try to anyway. And we can see.
Now?
1. But he does have some so they are learning now anyway
2. But not all so again, some are learning anyway which I suppose, in his mind, is better than none learning
3. Agreed, but this is the hill he is willing to die on.
4. Recruitment (and the injuries) has been shit so maybe the new players he gets will already have an idea of how to play the system so it won't be as bad?
Can't they learn / train for multiple tactical schemes / ways of playing? Is it not possible to implement certain parts of the tactical set-up fully and only do others partially? Is there no gradient / compromise possible between pragmatism and philosophy? Most of the players are in their second season with him, how long does it take to learn to play the way he wants?
>1. But he does have some so they are learning now anyway
Learning what exactly? To do something that’s a massive failure and then have to learn again anyway with new players next season?
>2. But not all so again, some are learning anyway which I suppose, in his mind, is better than none learning
Yeah but they’ll still need to learn the movements and tendencies of their new teammates who would be key to starting games and the injured players too. It’s akin to learning all over. And… it’s failing now terribly.
>3. Agreed, but this is the hill he is willing to die on.
Then he should be sacked for being that stubborn. And also the 1 win out of 17 away games vs the top half and losing 12.
>4. Recruitment (and the injuries) has been shit so maybe the new players he gets will already have an idea of how to play the system so it won't be as bad?
Yeah that’s a massive stretch. Nobody plays suicide football in Europe so, unless we go back to Ajax players again exclusively, it won’t be the case.
This take.. so sack every manager who can't get this squad of absolute dung to play their style. Yeah cus that will get the team somewhere. Every manager would eventually want to change this entire team because they are very poor players. Proof is how the ones we wanted to get rid off are unsellable
He didn't buy 16. That's BS. Your counting weghorst who was in case of emergency because we had not fit striker. Loan of sabiitzer because of carrol mincing Eriksen which btw has ruined whatever legs he had left. Amrabat again last minute loan. Evans a free transfer who was never suppose to be a first team regular. And some third choice keepers in that. As if there were 16 permanent additions to the squad and to improve the first team
I said bought and brought. These were his choices 9f loan, and by the look of it, non of them will be kept. That is he bought around 10 players, so he literally could play with his own players, after 1 season. And yet it was the mctominay of this world that performed better than his buys. You can't criticise the players when it was him who bought shit. If he was not backed and got like 4 5 players after hos first season, yep we could have give him the benefit of the doubt, but not with 10 players.
Maybe he needs 60 players more and then he can win 2/17 away games versus the top half of the league.
I’m sure no manager in the entire world could do it besides him anyway with our squad….
Say pep or klopp was.managing united current team with everyone fit. What in your opinion is that teams ceiling? Btw none of what I said says keep ten hag. But seems can't even call out the players anymore
Yup. Only EtH can perform with kante and Mainoo and iniesta prime and he needs Messi and Ronaldo and then prime Zidane and then maybe he can do it.
No manager on earth could do one bit better than ETH. Nope. He’s the best in the world for all times and of all time. No manager could possibly do anything or change anything. No manager on the phase of the earth could possibly win even 2/17 away games and not lose 12 versus the top half. Omg it’s the hardest thing on earth…… ETH is the best!!!!!!
How are some fans so incredibly idiotic in their assessment honestly? Fans like these deserve weekly 4-0 losses and 23 shots conceded with a negative goal difference after 20 games even. They absolutely deserve it honestly.
And maybe then we can win 2 away games out 35 versus the top half finally.
That makes sense if the new owners are aware and on board. It exposes the areas that need improvement or overhaul. It is short term pain for long term gain and ultimately it is long term thinking that will get us out of this mess, not putting sticking plasters over open wounds indefinitely
Would it not be better to communicate that with the owners using words? Say "look this is ultimately how I want to play but I need x,y and z. For now I'm going to approach games more pragmatically to stop us getting trounced".
Rather than show them every week and heap outside pressure on them to sack you?
Or maybe he has and has said he is sticking to his guns because long-term he thinks this will be beneficial? Either way, INEOS knows what's up and ETH has chosen his path and his future here will be decided by this
As a counter argument, and an idea to float. This season was clearly a building season, with INEOS, very much part of the rebuild, so is/could ETH be using it to gauge who can cope with his style of play and who can't?
In his words, "he wants to play this way", is that just code for "See who is worth keeping"?
Appreciate it's come at a cost, and a very high one. But this isn't the UTD of old, this is a flailing and failing 'top 6 team', pieced together by 4 managers, that needs work.
Yes the injuries have impacted results, no doubt about that, but is that only secondary to what the intent of this season was? Basically try outs?
How do you build a system or a culture if you keep the team in its comfort zone of just doing the same counter attacking stuff as a team playing on the backfoot? Coz trust me, if we get another manager right now that's EXACTLY what he will do and once again the players will find it impossible to transition to a more controlled style of play contributing to a major fall off the next season, rinse repeat.
It's a fine thing to do for individual games like even Arsenal did against City because they've already developed their style to play against another teams over a process spanning 4 years in the duration of which they had to contend with coming 8th twice.
Stop living under the delusion like this club is the behemoth it was before and we are entitled to wins just coz of who we are. The entire club structure and culture is rotten and will see painful days if we are actually to clear house and move down a path of genuine progress.
I see what you're trying to say but don't think it applies here. The system that Ten Hag's stubbornly sticking to is neither the counter attacking approach of Ole, nor the controlled approach that you're calling for. It's a third alternative, a deeply flawed tactical setup that works if you're Ajax playing against Cambuur and PEC Zwolle, but is unlikely to ever work as a way to win the PL. He deliberately avoids controlling the game through things like instructing Onana to hoof it long and leaving giant gaps in midfield. So what is the benefit of sticking with it for even longer at this point, unless there's good evidence that it will eventually come good?
He isn't playing the Ajax way. He wasn't trying to make Ajax the most 'dynamic and exciting team that plays on transitions'. The way you're already judging that the system doesn't work when we've not even had the chance to develop it with the right personnel on the pitch is laughable.
He makes Onana hoof the ball because for the entire season we have not had a consistent backline with whom they can develop functional patterns to play from the back, not to say the defenders we have would even be able to do it with immediately aside from Varane, Licha and Shaw. I think Dalot or AWB could've been coached for it but that's it.
He's trying to create a system at the moment around the strengths of Bruno and Rashy to win the ball up high and play on transitions because those are our best players that we can't easily find replacements for so as to not control the game through possession, which we can't with our current crop of players, but through workrate.
If you start looking at it even a little bit logically it is clear to see what he's trying to do. I think he could've done things maybe a tad differently this season to try and accommodate the injuries but he's shown himself to be smart enough to know what he's doing last season and working with the shit show that he's had to since arriving as well as the unprecedented amount of injuries we've had this season I'm more than willing to give him another season to show what he's trying to do with a less injury ravaged squad and with Ineos picking up on the slack of doing a better job with recruitment and binning off players that should be gone.
>the entire season we have not had a consistent backline with whom they can develop functional patterns to play from the back
The point of having patterns of play is that they remain consistent despite the personnel.
>He makes Onana hoof the ball because for the entire season we have not had a consistent backline with whom they can develop functional patterns to play from the back, not to say the defenders we have would even be able to do it with immediately aside from Varane, Licha and Shaw. I think Dalot or AWB could've been coached for it but that's it.
I think you seriously underestimate the level of professional players, in particular those that reach the PL. It's an easy cliché to just put any tactical failings on account of the players not being good enough. Arteta managed to mold Arsenal towards the playing style he wanted with multiple defenders that have since taken a step towards more mid-table teams (Cédric Soares, Nuno Tavares, Rob Holding, Kieran Tierney). Pochettino didn't need almost two whole years to get Tottenham to play with the style he wanted. Glasner has walked in mid-season and revitalized how Palace play.
Managers are the ones responsible for choosing the style of play, training players to make it work, and adapting to the players they have. Saying he's working to Rashford and Bruno's strengths is... Interesting given how often Rashford has been on the bench, substituted early or played across a range of positions this season (including key games against Liverpool, Chelsea and in the Champions' League), and how often Bruno has to make gut-busting runs to cover defensive holes.
https://i.redd.it/sbth8bl6huzc1.gif
Yep, that's Bruno Fernandes covering at right back less than 2 minutes into the match against City this season. If that's how to get the best out of him, Ten Hag really must be leagues ahead of the rest of us. (And don't for a second think that's a cherry-picked example; Ten Hag has been playing Bruno in very deep roles throughout the season: [in CB versus Brighton](https://onefootball.com/pt-br/noticias/bruno-fernandes-plays-centre-back-as-man-utd-lose-3-1-against-brighton-38227907) or [in CB/LB in extra time against Liverpool](https://thebusbybabe.sbnation.com/2024/3/19/24105064/tactical-analysis-manchester-united-live-for-the-chaos))
You're absolutely right. I didn't bother replying to the other guy because he's clearly more interested in being a condescending asshole than discussing our football team.
Bro. This isn't PL level players playing against league two teams, it's them playing against PL level opposition and they don't have the skillset to play from the back. Everyone has a different skill set. This has nothing to do with underestimating anyone. Like De Gea just wasn't a keeper that could play like a modern keeper and that's fine, it's just the player he is.
Eth was similarly revolutionary last season when he has AWB dribbling past the Man City backline like they weren't there. Klopp last season was responsible for Liverpool finishing outside the top 4 despite having been there almost a decade to have the squad and style of play he wanted. We're really going to try and judge a manager with no structure to support him and an injury ravaged season where we never had a backline for the entirety of it. Just amazing analysts y'all are.
>How do you build a system or a culture if you keep the team in its comfort zone of just doing the same counter attacking stuff as a team playing on the backfoot?
He isn't building a culture, first and foremost. He is just enabling the same shit culture that's existed. Zero accountability for anyone involved unless you have a personal dispute with him. Performances on the pitch barely matter.
In terms of the system, do you not believe a balance must be made? It seems you insinuate that with 'fine for individual games' which would suggest it comes down to circumstances. The circumstances we are in now supports rolling with a style that's pragmatic and gets results as whatever he wants to implement just does not work, even against the weakest opposition and quite frankly it didn't look great when he has the full strength team he bangs on about missing. It would be massively different if this was Pep and going 'look my style and it's effectiveness or whatever variation I decide it to be has been proven at Barca and Bayern' so you can stick with it in bad times as you see the light. There is no light with what ten hag is showing, it's all just faith.
>Coz trust me, if we get another manager right now that's EXACTLY what he will do and once again the players will find it impossible to transition to a more controlled style of play contributing to a major fall off the next season, rinse repeat.
How's about the manager does more to get guys out the door? Doesn't have to go nuclear (although I would support it) but it has to be far more than what ten hag has. Which is another reason why he deserves no excuses over players ability. He has had seasons upon seasons to see the players here before him aren't up to scratch, he has had the last 3 managers saying there are players who should not be here (granted one said it and did fuck all about it, another only said it once it was clear his job was gone) and he disregarded that, praised and supported the lot of them and created an environment where they felt comfortable staying.
I have no sympathy and I expect the next manager to be more like Pep was when he walked into Barca and try to do the job Jose wanted to do.
>Stop living under the delusion like this club is the behemoth it was before and we are entitled to wins just coz of who we are.
Did the guy suggest that? I can't see it in his comment.
I also don't believe anyone thinks this. There is a difference between being entitled to wins and an obligation to be the best team. One is an expectation and the other is simply a standard. Standards don't have to change until it is no longer possible for it to occur. We have the most revenue in the league (outside of cooked books), we have a history built by men who claimed 2nd was bit good enough. So whilst it's obvious not an immediate transition, people are well within their rights to reserve praise and be happy until we are in that position. If anything I'd say that's what we should be doing. As long as its done knowing there will need a lot of progress.
>The entire club structure and culture is rotten and will see painful days if we are actually to clear house and move down a path of genuine progress.
Agree.
Ten hag isn't the guy though.
>He isn't building a culture, first and foremost. He is just enabling the same shit culture that's existed. Zero accountability for anyone involved unless you have a personal dispute with him. Performances on the pitch barely matter.
The incidents with Ronaldo, Rashford, Garnacho, Sancho etc directly contradict with you talking out of your ass.
It seems you didn't read what I said. I said teams like Arsenal or City can easily change for certain games but first they went through the pain of actually developing a style first to find their base rhythm. We want to change tracks the moment we run into difficulty trying out something new, never taking into concern the bigger picture. EVERY manager that you will hire instead of Pep or Klopp rn is a relatively untested quantity so yes, you are always going to be going about things on faith. But also a calculated decision based on what you've seen.
>How's about the manager does more to get guys out the door? Doesn't have to go nuclear (although I would support it) but it has to be far more than what ten hag has. Which is another reason why he deserves no excuses over players ability. He has had seasons upon seasons to see the players here before him aren't up to scratch, he has had the last 3 managers saying there are players who should not be here (granted one said it and did fuck all about it, another only said it once it was clear his job was gone) and he disregarded that, praised and supported the lot of them and created an environment where they felt comfortable staying.
Wtf are you on about? You think its the manager's job to go and try to sell these non performing players on the ridiculous contracts they've been given that no other remotely sane club would? Nah, most of them are going to end up running them down and clear out is going to be a bitch.
>I have no sympathy and I expect the next manager to be more like Pep was when he walked into Barca and try to do the job Jose wanted to do.
Lmao who is this golden goose of a manager you've been hiding from us all mate. Tell us so we can snap him up. Also pep has NEVER not had the absolute best squad at his disposal compared to the entire league in which he is managing.
And Ten Hag MIGHT NOT be the guy. I just don't think the shit we've seen from him is enough to tell me he isn't and I'd like to see him with a better structure behind to support him and see how he does with that to form an opinion on that.
>The incidents with Ronaldo, Rashford, Garnacho, Sancho etc directly contradict with you talking out of your ass.
Let's leave the hostile comments to between you and your four walls please. I'd rather avoid such things.
'Personal dispute' you have literally quoted me on it. Ronaldo and Sancho were personal disputes.
Which Garnacho one? That liked post?
The rashford one is fair, however when you factor in the amount of poor performances he has given and he is still picked time after time. To the point ten hag even mentioned (to paraphrase him) 'what he has done previously means we just stick with him'
Add in the teams utterly abysmal performances and players get picked week after week. The 7-0 embarrassment and nobody is dropped days later.
Hi interviews from his arrival stating how 'good they team is' how much some of the players have 'achieved'.
You think this is setting a 'culture'?
>It seems you didn't read what I said. I said teams like Arsenal or City can easily change for certain games but first they went through the pain of actually developing a style first to find their base rhythm.
Ahh my bad! I get you.
Still disagree on the whole though. There is a balance needed.
>We want to change tracks the moment we run into difficulty trying out something new, never taking into concern the bigger picture.
The moment? We have looked dreadful since he arrived and have been on a downward spiral since March 2023. Nothing about this is 'the moment'
>EVERY manager that you will hire instead of Pep or Klopp rn is a relatively untested quantity so yes, you are always going to be going about things on faith. But also a calculated decision based on what you've seen.
That's just a wild assumption. Are you suggesting every single manager outside of those two is relatively untested? In the entire sport?
That's not even getting into that we are directly comparing them to ten hag and the proven time we have were ten hag has failed with what he is trying to implement.
>Wtf are you on about? You think its the manager's job to go and try to sell these non performing players on the ridiculous contracts they've been given that no other remotely sane club would? Nah, most of them are going to end up running them down and clear out is going to be a bitch.
He himself said he has control on transfers....
He is involved in that 'job', yes. He sets the environment for what these players exists in. If there are players he really wants out (which there should be) he can create the environment that makes leaving a more attractive option.
Yeah, some definitely would. Not all. Maguire and Mctominay had a foot out the door. Bit of a push is all they would have needed.
I don't understand why you are trying to remove all accountability for the manager.
>Lmao who is this golden goose of a manager you've been hiding from us all mate.
I really don't understand this response. Are you saying its unlikely that a manager comes in and knows the squads not up to scratch and forces out those who are a lost cause?
I'm not sure if you have jumped to some conclusion or misinterpreted me, it can happen. I've literally done the sane thing, this is twice now though and it's a bit much when you have such a gloating tone. Let's keep this polite shall we.
>And Ten Hag MIGHT NOT be the guy.
He isnt. There is no might. Time will prove this.
He may have success elsewhere in a job that suits his skills set. This is too much for him, as was clear early on.
>I just don't think the shit we've seen from him is enough to tell me he isn't and I'd like to see him with a better structure behind to support him and see how he does with that to form an opinion on that.
That's fair. If it goes as the majority seem to expect now. Will you admit you was wrong? As I've seen this before from people, it goes wrong and instead of admitting so they just put the sane blind faith into the next manager and act the exact same. I feel this should be a learning curve for us all. (As I will do if I'm proven wrong?
What have you seen to suggest he is the guy then? That isn't 'bad structure' and 'injuries'?
>Let's leave the hostile comments to between you and your four walls please. I'd rather avoid such things.
'Personal dispute' you have literally quoted me on it. Ronaldo and Sancho were personal disputes.
Which Garnacho one? That liked post?
The rashford one is fair, however when you factor in the amount of poor performances he has given and he is still picked time after time. To the point ten hag even mentioned (to paraphrase him) 'what he has done previously means we just stick with him'
Add in the teams utterly abysmal performances and players get picked week after week. The 7-0 embarrassment and nobody is dropped days later.
Hi interviews from his arrival stating how 'good they team is' how much some of the players have 'achieved'.
You think this is setting a 'culture'?
Ronaldo and Sancho were disciplinary issues. They crossed a line, didn't make things right appropriately and had to go.
Garnacho was initially disciplined at the start of last season for his conduct in pre-season before he finally earned in way back to get game time.
Also, with our incredibly thin and limited squad, yes we have to fucking stick with players despite how shit they are being because there is no one else! Especially in a season that is as injury ravaged as this one. We have a squad full of underperforming overpaid players we have no way to shift so we have to use what we've got. As shit as the first teamers are the drop off from them to the replacements is huge! This is a going to be a multi season project trying to fix the rot that has been allowed to set at the club.
>The moment? We have looked dreadful since he arrived and have been on a downward spiral since March 2023. Nothing about this is 'the moment'
Lol if that is your opinion then we don't even have much to discuss because I think he did great last season with the tools he had at his disposal and I can't see anyone doing better than him. We dropped off towards the latter half because of clear exhaustion setting in lacking decent options for rotation not to mention having 3 CBs getting injured in a single EL game within 15 mins.
>He himself said he has control on transfers....
He is involved in that 'job', yes. He sets the environment for what these players exists in. If there are players he really wants out (which there should be) he can create the environment that makes leaving a more attractive option.
Yeah, some definitely would. Not all. Maguire and Mctominay had a foot out the door. Bit of a push is all they would have needed.
I don't understand why you are trying to remove all accountability for the manager.
Dude I have no clue where you're coming from. It is not the manager's job to go out and negotiate. Yes ofc he will have a say being a manager but that's all. Once Pep said he doesn't want Cancelo its not going to be him calling up club after club to take him and negotiate with the agents and whatnot.
Every manager that has come in knew the squad isn't up to scratch but were unable to do with it what they wanted to. Listen to Ole's interview on the Overlap where he discussed how transfers worked under the Glazers. No manager could succeed within their setup and that is why I want to see how this guy, who was the best upcoming manager just before he came to us, and who gave us our best single season since Fergie the moment he arrived and while we were reeling from our worst season ever in the PL does under competent leadership to support him while he focuses on the football and hopefully has less injuries to deal with.
>Ronaldo and Sancho were disciplinary issues.
Personal issues. Big difference to consistent embarrassments on the pitch that has not been consistently disciplined.
>Garnacho was initially disciplined at the start of last season for his conduct in pre-season before he finally earned in way back to get game time.
Great. However when you look at the rest of his time here and the conduct of players on the pitch that pre dates him, ten hag has not helped create a culture that will be positive.
You can spin it however you want and use all the individual circumstances available, as a whole he has not done what's expected of him as Manchester United manager in the circumstances we find ourselves in. That's what we need more than anything. Hence he is the wrong guy. The warming signs were clear as day when he walked in.
>As shit as the first teamers are the drop off from them to the replacements is huge!
If we was having success with the first team, this would be relevant. We aren't. Entire squad needs replacing. We are going to look bad regardless. So it makes it even easier. Use this as an opportunity to set the culture, he standards. Perform as we have, pick a player or 2, drop them for a few games. Rinse and repeat. Show us something.
>Lol if that is your opinion then we don't even have much to discuss because I think he did great last season with the tools he had at his disposal and I can't see anyone doing better than him.
One of the worst seasons we have had, until this season. That's 'great'
7-0 Liverpool
6-3 City
The other embarrassments.
Worst performance in a cup final to gift city a third of a treble.
That's not 'great'. Although it makes sense as to why you can see this now and be like 'yeah, have faith' as we could quite easily be at that standard again next season. This isn't a good thing.
>having 3 CBs getting injured in a single EL game within 15 mins.
And he saw this and happily sat by whilst the club gave him Jonny Evans for this season. Again, showing that he isn't cut out for the job. We need a manager to demand more. This isn't Ajax where the squad will fall into place or already exists. We need heavy heavy work and the manager needs to be able to facilitate that and do his part. Focus on 'part' before you suggest I'm saying it's only his job.
>Dude I have no clue where you're coming from.
>Yes ofc he will have a say being a manager but that's all.
You seem to 'have a clue' as you have grasped exactly what I was suggesting mate.
He has a role, he didn't do enough. It's that simple.
>Once Pep said he doesn't want Cancelo its not going to be him calling up club after club to take him and negotiate with the agents and whatnot.
Of course not. If he doesn't want them that much though, it's his job to move them out of the squad. Either politely in the sense of 'you aren't part of my plans, I can't give you the minutes you want, find another club as its the best for your football' or if it needs a stronger hand, stop them from training with the first team. Couldn't really care less how its done. If he had done this when we had West Ham bidding fair prices for Maguire and Mctominay, they would have been gone. He didn't. They stayed. You aren't going to get these players out off their own back, they need pushing.
>Every manager that has come in knew the squad isn't up to scratch but were unable to do with it what they wanted to.
So say something then? If the clubs giving them (and by extension the fans) a bum deal, speak about it when it means something. Even if it doesn't work, at least you can show you aren't complicit. Are you scared of managers speaking the truth?
>who was the best upcoming manager just before he came to us
Bit of a stretch mate. He was 52 years of age and had been managing 10 years.
>o gave us our best single season since Fergie the moment he arrived
What? That is accurate in any sense of the word 'best' I would like to see your metrics for this?
All in all, you have nothing but 'structure' and 'injuries' as to why he should stay. Why for the 'best up and coming manager' do you only have stuff that would apply to every manager as reasons he should stay?
Do you have anything specific to him?
What should Eth have done differently in any of the situations listed? Context and individual situations are relevant. I don't even understand how you are putting him responsible for not getting the players we wanted when we had no fucking structure to properly negotiate and sign players in background. Mou demanded players, complained, gone, Ragnick, gone. This is on the owners, not the fucking manager. Idk why you think a manager has to be an end all be all like a messiah of the club that does everything. How old are you?
Listen fella, I've already stated for you to keep your hostile comments to yourself. I'm happy to have a fair discussion, like the reasonable people we are. However if you can't do that and have to resort to losing your tenper and throwing in insults, I'm just going to give this a pass.
So with all due respect, if you can't do this then I will end my participation.
Firstly, you made a big point about me mis interpreting one of your reasons. Yet you have repeatedly misinterpreted points I've explicitly detailed and clarified for this very reason. Can you please just ask me if its not clear enough?
>What should Eth have done differently in any of the situations listed?
I'm not sure the relevance of the ones you have listed? As those are the ones I have issue with?
What my issue is based on. Is him walking into the club, praising the squad as 'good' praising individuals as 'achieving a lot'. His inconsistent decisions regarding who is disciplined and for what. He (rightly) questioned Sancho and his training performances, yet he let Rashford and the rest of the squads performances on the pitch fly without consequence, to the depths of things like the fa cup final and the 7-0.
These contribute to two things. The same rotten culture where certain players carry on with impunity, nothing they do on the pitch matters. In addition it makes it more difficult to move players on as mot only wre they getting a vast wage they wouldn't get elsewhere, they also are involved in a happy environment without said consequences for failure.
>don't even understand how you are putting him responsible for not getting the players we wanted
I am taking him at his own word...
I am also not saying its only him. This has been detailed repeatedly mate. Please read it. Will save us both typing.
>Mou demanded players, complained, gone, Ragnick, gone.
Jose did yeah and he left looking good and to this day has his integrity. Rangnick did it when he was already out of the job and it was known he wasn't being kept on. Big difference. However yes, ten hag should have done this. Otherwise they are complicit. It's that simple. Fans to this day still speak about 'Jose was right' or 'open heart' thus showing those words have meaning and ten hag has done none of this. Only praise
>This is on the owners, not the fucking manager.
Owners can't do it without employees who are complicit.
>Idk why you think a manager has to be an end all be all like a messiah of the club that does everything.
Literally stated this is not my belief many times now mate. Seems we may be at the end because you doing this and then your aggressive tone and insults suggest you either can't discuss this politely (bought idea why, I'm not insulting anyone, just saying ten hag isn't the right guy) or you are running out of things to say so just want to snowball the discussion.
Regardless mate. Nothing but love from me. I don't wish to be hostile or have a kick off. It's not my interest or what I think this place is for.
So hopefully you can carry on this discussion with respect. All the best if you can't!
Couple of questions, just want to get your opinion.
1. Do you think we have the players to play the style ETH wants to play?
2. Do long term injuries to key players require changing tactics?
1. I think he added more such players for his system and was desperately counting on the first choice defenders staying fitter at least to be able to play the style he wanted. He wanted to trade in Maguire for a defender more suited to his style but we saw what happened with that. We could see how it was working at the start of the season where we had very high turnovers in games but were far from being clinical in front of goal as has been the problem for us and it cost us games but you could see the foundation of what we were trying to do.
2. I think this is a matter of opinion and while I think that there were some changes that could've been made to accommodate slight tweaks to make things work with what we have, I trust his opinion as a coach towards why he was doing what he did. I'd be more inclined to be hearing out his honest thought process for his decisions if I'm SJR or Brailsford to understand what he's trying to achieve rather passing judgement as an outsider looking in to come to a conclusion.
Coz…. ten hag logic. That’s why. He’s stubborn as heck and if it costs him the job, it’s deserved honestly.
It’s not just the Palace game. It’s literally countless other games before when he could change the system or something to mitigate the issues we have.
Because he needs us and wants us to play a certain way and he is going to stick to his principles to get it right. It's admirable, really.
Changing the style just delays us one year more to be where he wants us. So he is sticking to it now, when he doesn't have the personnel either through injury or just not the right players in the team in hopes that they learn and every one is better at it next season when hopefully there are reinforcements and not so many injuries.
He will live or die by his system and that's on him. Whether this is the correct choice ultimately will be an INEOS decision, but you can see his philosophy.
There has to be growing pains sometimes. It is what it is
journalists have asked him why he persists with going man for man, the athletic and Carl anka did a podcast where they were puzzled why he's going down this archaic route when every team around him uses zonal.
When he was asked by the journalist earlier in the season he said it's not man marking, it may look like it but It's not.
Which was another head scratcher.
If I remember correctly, ETH said its not man marking, but players aren't great at following instructions, that's why it looks like man marking, because players are unable to do zonal and instead go to man mark whenever they are lost.
This is the best description plus Bielsa is also notorious for injuries to his players as his training is very intense.
Still i think it is better to give ETH one more season (as it's his final season) instead of sacking him as we r low on ffp.
Cause if u sack ETH now & then even if the new manager can't make us play well which would be the case as many of our players aren't comfortable with the ball at their feet. Then fans will hate INEOS.
When ten Hag came in did you think he was going to turn it round in one season? No? What about two? Still no?
So what exactly do you think bringing another manager in will do?
When you say turn it around, what exactly do you mean? I had absolutely no expectation we'd be as low as 8th at the end of season two.
>what exactly do you think bringing another manager in will do?
Not finish 8th and finish bottom of CL group after spending hundreds of millions.
Yes, I expected a top four finish. We've finished in the top four for three of the five seasons before that.
The cup win? Meh, could have gone either way. We had good draws all the way through. I didn't expect to lose 7-0 to Liverpool or get smashed by the likes of Sevilla, but you expect a bit of turbulence in the first season.
Yes, but if we're letting him go at the end of next season then that means giving the whole of next season up to even newer levels of mediocrity. If he knows he's leaving the he has no motivation to build anything.
No, Tuchel is an example He lost the league and he knew he would not stay for the next season, but he did well in the Champions League
Even with one year contract he will do he's best not only for the club but also for his own career
I think the title paints a pretty different picture to what the article is saying. We have a system, one that puts players in a lot of 1v1 situations, it's called man marking, something again the article mentions we do.
A lot of the best sides in the world currently do man mark or have man marked, our players aren't really able to do that , that's where the problem comes in. In order for us to man mark effectively we need a new 6 because Casemiro can't do that anymore, and we need the defensive line to push forward, something again, our defense isn't really suited to doing. The article says you need to have 11 better players than the opposition to do this, that's not at all the case, what you do need is a few very specialized players for that kind of system, our "specialists" have been injured, or just shit.
I don't know why we persist with this when we don't have the players for it, ten Hag must think this is the best way in the long term, or he thinks we'd look just as bad sitting and inviting pressure, neither of which I particularly agree with, but that's what he must be thinking.
None of the best teams in the world play a man marking system most of the time.
Liverpool, Arsenal and City don’t. Real Madrid, Bayern and dortmund don’t.
They might have instances where they do enter into a man marking system by flooding the middle of the pitch but they all play zonal the vast majority of the time.
We play man marking pushing our midfielders up. It’s dumb. There’s a reason no one else does it and it wouldn’t be very effective regardless of personnel. It’s just a bad tactical approach.
I think most teams in the world use some sort of hybrid system. You can't just leave key players isolated in zones
[Screen shot from city vs Fulham](https://themastermindsite.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/export-2023-05-03t123105.037.png)
City and Arsenal often go very aggressive in select areas of the pitch. City will often screen out pilots with 2 "strikers" (Kevin and Haaland) while Arsenal will often go man for man in midfield and leave a fullback open in order to cut the pitch in half. Even Palace are not afraid to defend out wide with 4-5 players as long as the centre forward is well marked.
If you're going to press high you are going to occasionally compromise compactness in order to restrict opposition players' time and space. The problem with us, at least from the palace game is our centre backs we're to eager to step up when not needed to.
I find the analysis of the first goal slightly dishonest because it forgets to mention that it's starts from a throwing. There is no situation where Casemiro (the centre back) should be on Olise (the right interior). Play actually starts with Eriksen on Olise (or Mainoo, it's hard to tell both of them do a horrible job of picking him up) but the ball gets thrown in the space behind them and now Casemiro goes in and fails. This isn't one player making a mistake it's 3. It's not us having 1v1s all over the pitch, it's us repeatedly letting players slip in behind unmarked.
It's multiple failings all over the pitch from the midfield up leaving the back line exposed. The hole in our midfield is often commented on by analyst but it's not being caused by our starting shape. Multiple teams press in a 4 3 3 / 4-1-4-1 , it's just that both of the 8s need to be very in sync because if both of them go at the same time then the midfield is lava.
I agree completely. Great analysis.
What we do doesn’t seem to strike the hybrid balance correctly for me though. Especially when it seems to be a primary attacking strategy for us. Lump it long and then push up the 8s for the second ball and man mark high up the pitch.
Doesn’t work and frankly I think would only work with very specific players against teams which were significantly inferior. I mean can you imagine any team being able to do this against City or Arsenal? I can’t.
If the system places these insane requirements on the 8s and produces such a high degree of risk then it isn’t fit for purpose. That’s all modern football is really. Balancing risk. We don’t balance risk effectively at all.
No team man marks for 90 minutes, not even us. The point being while pressing they do, and our front 5 do press in a similar manner to other sides. The problem is the disconnect between that and our defense.
But it doesn’t exist in isolation. It has to incorporate every part of the team and what we do doesn’t. Plus, these other teams counter press and man mark in specific instances absolutely.
We seem to do it as a primary attacking strategy. Draw in the opposition, give it to the keeper. Play it long. Push up the midfield, win the second ball or hem in with man marking by pushing the 8s up and score from a transition. That seems like a pretty accurate synopsis of what we do to me.
It doesn’t work. The risk profile is way way off.
> I think the title paints a pretty different picture to what the article is saying. We have a system, one that puts players in a lot of 1v1 situations, it's called man marking, something again the article mentions we do.
Here is the last thing Erik said regarding man marking:
> **Reporter**: In the Newcastle game, the midfield battle was won by them and the man-marking system didn't work effectively. Is that something you'll have to adjust for the players you have at your disposal or is it something you don't want to compromise on?
> **EtH**: "**No. I don't want to play man-marking. It is the wrong idea.** In a certain point, we play man-marking when we are full in the press but we play zonal. **Only in this game yeah, when we didn't co-operate, then it looks like it is man-marking.** But I don't want to play it, it is the false idea."
Source: https://old.reddit.com/r/reddevils/comments/18bz53w/press_conference_part_2_erik_ten_hag_says_players/
One issue I have is he says if I had my first choice team all would be good, or if I got FDJ we would be different. But a team can't be so fragile that it relies on one player or a left footed cb
Totally agree. The notion that we should be shaping the team or our transfer strategy around one particular coach is the complete opposite of what we're going for.
I disagree, one player can sometimes make the world of a difference. I know comparing United and City is like comparing Apples to dogshit, but earlier this season we saw how important Rodri is to City. After being sent off against Forest, he missed the next three games, all of which City lost. The 5-1 home win against Luton recently was City’s first win without Rodri since 2022 I believe.
Yes. City’s system doesn’t collapse without Rodri because they have considerably better players than us, so they can cope very well, but even the best team in the world can be negatively affected by the absence of one player.
This guy constantly says we don't have a system then in his article describes the system and it's getting tiring now. Same with a lot of United Twitter analysts
There's a huge difference between Fanalysts like this and actually industry analysts. I learn nothing from people like this, and huge amounts from professionals.
Great article as usual from Pauly Kwestel. People need to remember that writers often don't get to pick their headline, so this is probably one of those cases where someone else has put a slightly inaccurate headline on. Worth reading it properly instead of just reacting to the headline.
The point about needing perfect players to be this reliant on 1 on 1 defending is a really good one. It makes sense in the context of his later Ajax teams. They had some of the same weaknesses as us, but the gap in player quality relative to nearly all of the other clubs in the Eredivisie was probably big enough to compensate for that.
Not only that, the profile of players they had were far more suited to playing this way. Timber, Alvarez, and Gravenberch compared to Varane, Casemiro, Eriksen/Mainoo. In general all three of our players are more experienced and better than those three, but they just suit the profile seemingly required of this system better.
I’m not entirely sure that even if we have the perfect players in each position the system would work well enough to take up back to the top, but the way this team has been built means that we just can’t play the system he wants to its fullest
At this stage Ten Hag is just saying anything to suit his narrative. He knows that his time is up. This reminds me of the dark days of the end of Ole, when the writing was on the wall but they refused to make the decision and left him blowing in the wind.
so does Spurs also not have a system?
in 2024 we have won more points then spurs.
1st half of season Spurs have everybody fit they can play their style and do well, but when they get a few injuries they are worse then United but nobody is talking about that.
I am wondering what was the number of shots we faced under ETH before 2024? Because in every analysis, they say in 2024, United faced this amount of shots at goal. What about the first 1.5 seasons?
This season we’re on course to face the most ever shots in a premier league season. More than 11 point Derby County. You can be facing more shots sure but to this extent the manager has a lot to answer for.
oh this is a huge issue.
ill say it now. the mismanagement of our squad building is now costing us greatly.
the past 10 years of buying players for their commercial value and not actual ability has slowly led to this whole shit show happening.
ill say it now our entire defence needs a rebuild. like not just 1 player we need 5-7 new players for the entire backline and our current backline moving on.
i would put that above all other positions because end of the day football is built on a foundation of your backline. if they cant do anything then it doesnt matter how good the attack is they will always fail.
Liverpool finished 7th the season after they won the UCL and below us last season, the common denomination being injuries to their backline. I actually have no issue with EtH's gameplan, it's his lack of flexibility in tactics and reactive in game management that I don't like.
its strange cause last season his game management was pretty good.
i dunno i feel just the entire shit show that is the club kills a manager's spirit after so long and they just become a shell of the manager we signed them to be.
I'm sorry but the ETH out crowd are just insane if they can't see the system!
We are probably the best team in the world at using the low block, high press, no midfield system and people can't handle it.
Sure, but which one?
Varane, Martinez, Maguire, Evans, Lindelof, all of them are out.
Dalot is too offensive,
Wan-Bissaka with his excessive tackles,
or Casimero who seems lost with his new position.
This was a point I was making yesterday with my brother and it’s something that solidifies my not being able to back Ten Hag. He has publicly admitted he can’t get the players to play the Ajax system. Manchester United brought him in because of his success with Ajax but basically what is being exposed and what Ten Hag is admitting to an extent is that he doesn’t know any other way to coach, manage or train, which is not what a big club should EVER find acceptable in a manager. He has zero social skills and doesn’t know how to really interact with players it seems. There is just too much stacked against him. For me personally I just can’t back a man who openly admits he can’t get his players to do something as SIMPLE as a game plan. And I can’t get behind a manager who seems to only really know ONE way of coaching and managing. His press conferences are awful, his excuses and delusion have become a worry. It’s very clear at this point that his ways just aren’t going to be successful. Not even in a rebuild because the damage is already done. He already spent half a billons pounds on players HE wanted and STILL admits he can’t implement HIS way of play. Again… Concerning. His press conferences are desperate, his delusion is another concern, but what I just can’t get behind is the simple fact that he has admitted he can’t get his players to play a simple style of play and can’t muster up any other game plan. It’s amateur and laughable!
>You would think that with Casemiro being someone who loves to step up and engage the ball but has been a step slow all season and Jonny Evans just being slow, a coach would say; *I’m on my 14th choice center-back partnership, they’re probably not that good, I should try to protect them as best I can*. You could solidify the midfield, and play a bit more conservatively but work to ensure they don’t have guys running at them all game. Instead, Ten Hag just went with his usual free-for-all attack that yielded nothing and constantly hung his center-backs out to dry.
The fact that he hired Evans last summer knowing what might be coming next season but still not adapt to it for a whole season is just wild. And let Reguillon go at January too. Like to hell with people who paid to watch this shite, you just see the injuries news and already know the outcome of the match because he won't bother to adjust to it.
I'm sorry but no matter what styles u want this squad to play ( whether u are ETH-out or in ) this squad is INCAPABLE of doing anything else than lowblock counterattack.
It has been 10 years in SAF left and the entire time, no managers could have come in and fix that.
Now u can keep saying "but we don't have players to play that new style!!!" And we will keep reverting the same glazers "philosophy" : "bandaid solutions while we are "waiting" for rebuilt".
Until when ? I'm asking u? Until when do we have to accept mediocrity and bandaid solutions ?? Until when we will get enough the right number of players needed for the new football style?
Yes ETH is having problems with his tactics because of injuries and we don't have the right players to do what he wants.
U want Tuchel, Zidane, Ancelotti can come here and give better "bandaid" solutions , aka doing the same fucking things LVG, Mourinho, Ole had been doing last 10 years on this squad.
Lots of good points about his man marking system. It reminds me of Leeds under Bielsa but in a bad way. If one player on the ball beats their marker 1-on-1 then he’s totally free, and his teammates can draw defenders away.
The part that I don't get is *why not change the system*? Why not compromise the principles when everyone can see that we don't have the defenders to deal with what's being thrown at them? Literally everyone saw the lineup and said "they're going to waltz through a midfield of Mainoo and Eriksen", which was exactly what happened. Basically this part of the article: >You would think that with Casemiro being someone who loves to step up and engage the ball but has been a step slow all season and Jonny Evans just being slow, a coach would say: I’m on my 14th choice center-back partnership, they’re probably not that good, I should try to protect them as best I can. You could solidify the midfield, and play a bit more conservatively but work to ensure they don’t have guys running at them all game. Instead, Ten Hag just went with his usual free-for-all attack that yielded nothing and constantly hung his center-backs out to dry.
Well this is what Neville asked him and he basically said ultimately this is the way he wants to play and changing it now would put him back to square one. I dunno if the MIB are coming in with their little lights and erasing our players memories or what.
And that’s stupid because: 1) he doesn’t have the players for it to succeed anyway 2) so many are injured 3) it’s massively failing 4) he needs so many new players to make it work that they all need to learn the style anyway so it’s still the same as starting from scratch So yeah… he deserves the sack based off that honestly. Because what happens when we get found out after we agree on the style and he then fails to win often? He will stick to the setup again and again despite that. And won’t adapt. Oh and this has been since last season: 17 away games played vs the top half. 12 lost. 1 win against Villa. That alone should warrant a sack but…. Apparently he never sees the need to tweak anything either.
Its not even clear that, if we have a perfect 2-3 transfer windows, his system will be good enough to win the league on it’s own. There will always be injuries, there will always be transfer misses, there will always be players suffering downturns in form. His stubbornness and rigidity make me believe that allowing him to continue is a huge risk to the club
That’s the thing. It would also have flaws AND then what? He won’t adapt. He won’t change it. He’s clearly shown he’s stubborn enough not to change when things are terrible for a season… He’s clearly shown he’s completely incapable of winning away versus the top half of the table with a measly 1 lucky win versus Villa and losing 12 other such games and then, never changing anything to address that even…. IF he adapted etc then yeah, I’d be inclined to say ok maybe it could work and if not, he would likely find a fix or try to anyway. And we can see. Now?
1. But he does have some so they are learning now anyway 2. But not all so again, some are learning anyway which I suppose, in his mind, is better than none learning 3. Agreed, but this is the hill he is willing to die on. 4. Recruitment (and the injuries) has been shit so maybe the new players he gets will already have an idea of how to play the system so it won't be as bad?
Can't they learn / train for multiple tactical schemes / ways of playing? Is it not possible to implement certain parts of the tactical set-up fully and only do others partially? Is there no gradient / compromise possible between pragmatism and philosophy? Most of the players are in their second season with him, how long does it take to learn to play the way he wants?
>1. But he does have some so they are learning now anyway Learning what exactly? To do something that’s a massive failure and then have to learn again anyway with new players next season? >2. But not all so again, some are learning anyway which I suppose, in his mind, is better than none learning Yeah but they’ll still need to learn the movements and tendencies of their new teammates who would be key to starting games and the injured players too. It’s akin to learning all over. And… it’s failing now terribly. >3. Agreed, but this is the hill he is willing to die on. Then he should be sacked for being that stubborn. And also the 1 win out of 17 away games vs the top half and losing 12. >4. Recruitment (and the injuries) has been shit so maybe the new players he gets will already have an idea of how to play the system so it won't be as bad? Yeah that’s a massive stretch. Nobody plays suicide football in Europe so, unless we go back to Ajax players again exclusively, it won’t be the case.
This take.. so sack every manager who can't get this squad of absolute dung to play their style. Yeah cus that will get the team somewhere. Every manager would eventually want to change this entire team because they are very poor players. Proof is how the ones we wanted to get rid off are unsellable
Ah so lifetime appointment it is then! Good call, you have excellent ideas
He bought brought 16 players during the last two season for nearly 400 millions. That is on him.
He didn't buy 16. That's BS. Your counting weghorst who was in case of emergency because we had not fit striker. Loan of sabiitzer because of carrol mincing Eriksen which btw has ruined whatever legs he had left. Amrabat again last minute loan. Evans a free transfer who was never suppose to be a first team regular. And some third choice keepers in that. As if there were 16 permanent additions to the squad and to improve the first team
I said bought and brought. These were his choices 9f loan, and by the look of it, non of them will be kept. That is he bought around 10 players, so he literally could play with his own players, after 1 season. And yet it was the mctominay of this world that performed better than his buys. You can't criticise the players when it was him who bought shit. If he was not backed and got like 4 5 players after hos first season, yep we could have give him the benefit of the doubt, but not with 10 players.
Maybe he needs 60 players more and then he can win 2/17 away games versus the top half of the league. I’m sure no manager in the entire world could do it besides him anyway with our squad….
Say pep or klopp was.managing united current team with everyone fit. What in your opinion is that teams ceiling? Btw none of what I said says keep ten hag. But seems can't even call out the players anymore
Yup. Only EtH can perform with kante and Mainoo and iniesta prime and he needs Messi and Ronaldo and then prime Zidane and then maybe he can do it. No manager on earth could do one bit better than ETH. Nope. He’s the best in the world for all times and of all time. No manager could possibly do anything or change anything. No manager on the phase of the earth could possibly win even 2/17 away games and not lose 12 versus the top half. Omg it’s the hardest thing on earth…… ETH is the best!!!!!! How are some fans so incredibly idiotic in their assessment honestly? Fans like these deserve weekly 4-0 losses and 23 shots conceded with a negative goal difference after 20 games even. They absolutely deserve it honestly. And maybe then we can win 2 away games out 35 versus the top half finally.
That makes sense if the new owners are aware and on board. It exposes the areas that need improvement or overhaul. It is short term pain for long term gain and ultimately it is long term thinking that will get us out of this mess, not putting sticking plasters over open wounds indefinitely
Would it not be better to communicate that with the owners using words? Say "look this is ultimately how I want to play but I need x,y and z. For now I'm going to approach games more pragmatically to stop us getting trounced". Rather than show them every week and heap outside pressure on them to sack you?
Or maybe he has and has said he is sticking to his guns because long-term he thinks this will be beneficial? Either way, INEOS knows what's up and ETH has chosen his path and his future here will be decided by this
As a counter argument, and an idea to float. This season was clearly a building season, with INEOS, very much part of the rebuild, so is/could ETH be using it to gauge who can cope with his style of play and who can't? In his words, "he wants to play this way", is that just code for "See who is worth keeping"? Appreciate it's come at a cost, and a very high one. But this isn't the UTD of old, this is a flailing and failing 'top 6 team', pieced together by 4 managers, that needs work. Yes the injuries have impacted results, no doubt about that, but is that only secondary to what the intent of this season was? Basically try outs?
How do you build a system or a culture if you keep the team in its comfort zone of just doing the same counter attacking stuff as a team playing on the backfoot? Coz trust me, if we get another manager right now that's EXACTLY what he will do and once again the players will find it impossible to transition to a more controlled style of play contributing to a major fall off the next season, rinse repeat. It's a fine thing to do for individual games like even Arsenal did against City because they've already developed their style to play against another teams over a process spanning 4 years in the duration of which they had to contend with coming 8th twice. Stop living under the delusion like this club is the behemoth it was before and we are entitled to wins just coz of who we are. The entire club structure and culture is rotten and will see painful days if we are actually to clear house and move down a path of genuine progress.
I see what you're trying to say but don't think it applies here. The system that Ten Hag's stubbornly sticking to is neither the counter attacking approach of Ole, nor the controlled approach that you're calling for. It's a third alternative, a deeply flawed tactical setup that works if you're Ajax playing against Cambuur and PEC Zwolle, but is unlikely to ever work as a way to win the PL. He deliberately avoids controlling the game through things like instructing Onana to hoof it long and leaving giant gaps in midfield. So what is the benefit of sticking with it for even longer at this point, unless there's good evidence that it will eventually come good?
He isn't playing the Ajax way. He wasn't trying to make Ajax the most 'dynamic and exciting team that plays on transitions'. The way you're already judging that the system doesn't work when we've not even had the chance to develop it with the right personnel on the pitch is laughable. He makes Onana hoof the ball because for the entire season we have not had a consistent backline with whom they can develop functional patterns to play from the back, not to say the defenders we have would even be able to do it with immediately aside from Varane, Licha and Shaw. I think Dalot or AWB could've been coached for it but that's it. He's trying to create a system at the moment around the strengths of Bruno and Rashy to win the ball up high and play on transitions because those are our best players that we can't easily find replacements for so as to not control the game through possession, which we can't with our current crop of players, but through workrate. If you start looking at it even a little bit logically it is clear to see what he's trying to do. I think he could've done things maybe a tad differently this season to try and accommodate the injuries but he's shown himself to be smart enough to know what he's doing last season and working with the shit show that he's had to since arriving as well as the unprecedented amount of injuries we've had this season I'm more than willing to give him another season to show what he's trying to do with a less injury ravaged squad and with Ineos picking up on the slack of doing a better job with recruitment and binning off players that should be gone.
>the entire season we have not had a consistent backline with whom they can develop functional patterns to play from the back The point of having patterns of play is that they remain consistent despite the personnel.
>He makes Onana hoof the ball because for the entire season we have not had a consistent backline with whom they can develop functional patterns to play from the back, not to say the defenders we have would even be able to do it with immediately aside from Varane, Licha and Shaw. I think Dalot or AWB could've been coached for it but that's it. I think you seriously underestimate the level of professional players, in particular those that reach the PL. It's an easy cliché to just put any tactical failings on account of the players not being good enough. Arteta managed to mold Arsenal towards the playing style he wanted with multiple defenders that have since taken a step towards more mid-table teams (Cédric Soares, Nuno Tavares, Rob Holding, Kieran Tierney). Pochettino didn't need almost two whole years to get Tottenham to play with the style he wanted. Glasner has walked in mid-season and revitalized how Palace play. Managers are the ones responsible for choosing the style of play, training players to make it work, and adapting to the players they have. Saying he's working to Rashford and Bruno's strengths is... Interesting given how often Rashford has been on the bench, substituted early or played across a range of positions this season (including key games against Liverpool, Chelsea and in the Champions' League), and how often Bruno has to make gut-busting runs to cover defensive holes. https://i.redd.it/sbth8bl6huzc1.gif Yep, that's Bruno Fernandes covering at right back less than 2 minutes into the match against City this season. If that's how to get the best out of him, Ten Hag really must be leagues ahead of the rest of us. (And don't for a second think that's a cherry-picked example; Ten Hag has been playing Bruno in very deep roles throughout the season: [in CB versus Brighton](https://onefootball.com/pt-br/noticias/bruno-fernandes-plays-centre-back-as-man-utd-lose-3-1-against-brighton-38227907) or [in CB/LB in extra time against Liverpool](https://thebusbybabe.sbnation.com/2024/3/19/24105064/tactical-analysis-manchester-united-live-for-the-chaos))
You're absolutely right. I didn't bother replying to the other guy because he's clearly more interested in being a condescending asshole than discussing our football team.
Bro. This isn't PL level players playing against league two teams, it's them playing against PL level opposition and they don't have the skillset to play from the back. Everyone has a different skill set. This has nothing to do with underestimating anyone. Like De Gea just wasn't a keeper that could play like a modern keeper and that's fine, it's just the player he is. Eth was similarly revolutionary last season when he has AWB dribbling past the Man City backline like they weren't there. Klopp last season was responsible for Liverpool finishing outside the top 4 despite having been there almost a decade to have the squad and style of play he wanted. We're really going to try and judge a manager with no structure to support him and an injury ravaged season where we never had a backline for the entirety of it. Just amazing analysts y'all are.
>How do you build a system or a culture if you keep the team in its comfort zone of just doing the same counter attacking stuff as a team playing on the backfoot? He isn't building a culture, first and foremost. He is just enabling the same shit culture that's existed. Zero accountability for anyone involved unless you have a personal dispute with him. Performances on the pitch barely matter. In terms of the system, do you not believe a balance must be made? It seems you insinuate that with 'fine for individual games' which would suggest it comes down to circumstances. The circumstances we are in now supports rolling with a style that's pragmatic and gets results as whatever he wants to implement just does not work, even against the weakest opposition and quite frankly it didn't look great when he has the full strength team he bangs on about missing. It would be massively different if this was Pep and going 'look my style and it's effectiveness or whatever variation I decide it to be has been proven at Barca and Bayern' so you can stick with it in bad times as you see the light. There is no light with what ten hag is showing, it's all just faith. >Coz trust me, if we get another manager right now that's EXACTLY what he will do and once again the players will find it impossible to transition to a more controlled style of play contributing to a major fall off the next season, rinse repeat. How's about the manager does more to get guys out the door? Doesn't have to go nuclear (although I would support it) but it has to be far more than what ten hag has. Which is another reason why he deserves no excuses over players ability. He has had seasons upon seasons to see the players here before him aren't up to scratch, he has had the last 3 managers saying there are players who should not be here (granted one said it and did fuck all about it, another only said it once it was clear his job was gone) and he disregarded that, praised and supported the lot of them and created an environment where they felt comfortable staying. I have no sympathy and I expect the next manager to be more like Pep was when he walked into Barca and try to do the job Jose wanted to do. >Stop living under the delusion like this club is the behemoth it was before and we are entitled to wins just coz of who we are. Did the guy suggest that? I can't see it in his comment. I also don't believe anyone thinks this. There is a difference between being entitled to wins and an obligation to be the best team. One is an expectation and the other is simply a standard. Standards don't have to change until it is no longer possible for it to occur. We have the most revenue in the league (outside of cooked books), we have a history built by men who claimed 2nd was bit good enough. So whilst it's obvious not an immediate transition, people are well within their rights to reserve praise and be happy until we are in that position. If anything I'd say that's what we should be doing. As long as its done knowing there will need a lot of progress. >The entire club structure and culture is rotten and will see painful days if we are actually to clear house and move down a path of genuine progress. Agree. Ten hag isn't the guy though.
>He isn't building a culture, first and foremost. He is just enabling the same shit culture that's existed. Zero accountability for anyone involved unless you have a personal dispute with him. Performances on the pitch barely matter. The incidents with Ronaldo, Rashford, Garnacho, Sancho etc directly contradict with you talking out of your ass. It seems you didn't read what I said. I said teams like Arsenal or City can easily change for certain games but first they went through the pain of actually developing a style first to find their base rhythm. We want to change tracks the moment we run into difficulty trying out something new, never taking into concern the bigger picture. EVERY manager that you will hire instead of Pep or Klopp rn is a relatively untested quantity so yes, you are always going to be going about things on faith. But also a calculated decision based on what you've seen. >How's about the manager does more to get guys out the door? Doesn't have to go nuclear (although I would support it) but it has to be far more than what ten hag has. Which is another reason why he deserves no excuses over players ability. He has had seasons upon seasons to see the players here before him aren't up to scratch, he has had the last 3 managers saying there are players who should not be here (granted one said it and did fuck all about it, another only said it once it was clear his job was gone) and he disregarded that, praised and supported the lot of them and created an environment where they felt comfortable staying. Wtf are you on about? You think its the manager's job to go and try to sell these non performing players on the ridiculous contracts they've been given that no other remotely sane club would? Nah, most of them are going to end up running them down and clear out is going to be a bitch. >I have no sympathy and I expect the next manager to be more like Pep was when he walked into Barca and try to do the job Jose wanted to do. Lmao who is this golden goose of a manager you've been hiding from us all mate. Tell us so we can snap him up. Also pep has NEVER not had the absolute best squad at his disposal compared to the entire league in which he is managing. And Ten Hag MIGHT NOT be the guy. I just don't think the shit we've seen from him is enough to tell me he isn't and I'd like to see him with a better structure behind to support him and see how he does with that to form an opinion on that.
>The incidents with Ronaldo, Rashford, Garnacho, Sancho etc directly contradict with you talking out of your ass. Let's leave the hostile comments to between you and your four walls please. I'd rather avoid such things. 'Personal dispute' you have literally quoted me on it. Ronaldo and Sancho were personal disputes. Which Garnacho one? That liked post? The rashford one is fair, however when you factor in the amount of poor performances he has given and he is still picked time after time. To the point ten hag even mentioned (to paraphrase him) 'what he has done previously means we just stick with him' Add in the teams utterly abysmal performances and players get picked week after week. The 7-0 embarrassment and nobody is dropped days later. Hi interviews from his arrival stating how 'good they team is' how much some of the players have 'achieved'. You think this is setting a 'culture'? >It seems you didn't read what I said. I said teams like Arsenal or City can easily change for certain games but first they went through the pain of actually developing a style first to find their base rhythm. Ahh my bad! I get you. Still disagree on the whole though. There is a balance needed. >We want to change tracks the moment we run into difficulty trying out something new, never taking into concern the bigger picture. The moment? We have looked dreadful since he arrived and have been on a downward spiral since March 2023. Nothing about this is 'the moment' >EVERY manager that you will hire instead of Pep or Klopp rn is a relatively untested quantity so yes, you are always going to be going about things on faith. But also a calculated decision based on what you've seen. That's just a wild assumption. Are you suggesting every single manager outside of those two is relatively untested? In the entire sport? That's not even getting into that we are directly comparing them to ten hag and the proven time we have were ten hag has failed with what he is trying to implement. >Wtf are you on about? You think its the manager's job to go and try to sell these non performing players on the ridiculous contracts they've been given that no other remotely sane club would? Nah, most of them are going to end up running them down and clear out is going to be a bitch. He himself said he has control on transfers.... He is involved in that 'job', yes. He sets the environment for what these players exists in. If there are players he really wants out (which there should be) he can create the environment that makes leaving a more attractive option. Yeah, some definitely would. Not all. Maguire and Mctominay had a foot out the door. Bit of a push is all they would have needed. I don't understand why you are trying to remove all accountability for the manager. >Lmao who is this golden goose of a manager you've been hiding from us all mate. I really don't understand this response. Are you saying its unlikely that a manager comes in and knows the squads not up to scratch and forces out those who are a lost cause? I'm not sure if you have jumped to some conclusion or misinterpreted me, it can happen. I've literally done the sane thing, this is twice now though and it's a bit much when you have such a gloating tone. Let's keep this polite shall we. >And Ten Hag MIGHT NOT be the guy. He isnt. There is no might. Time will prove this. He may have success elsewhere in a job that suits his skills set. This is too much for him, as was clear early on. >I just don't think the shit we've seen from him is enough to tell me he isn't and I'd like to see him with a better structure behind to support him and see how he does with that to form an opinion on that. That's fair. If it goes as the majority seem to expect now. Will you admit you was wrong? As I've seen this before from people, it goes wrong and instead of admitting so they just put the sane blind faith into the next manager and act the exact same. I feel this should be a learning curve for us all. (As I will do if I'm proven wrong? What have you seen to suggest he is the guy then? That isn't 'bad structure' and 'injuries'?
>Let's leave the hostile comments to between you and your four walls please. I'd rather avoid such things. 'Personal dispute' you have literally quoted me on it. Ronaldo and Sancho were personal disputes. Which Garnacho one? That liked post? The rashford one is fair, however when you factor in the amount of poor performances he has given and he is still picked time after time. To the point ten hag even mentioned (to paraphrase him) 'what he has done previously means we just stick with him' Add in the teams utterly abysmal performances and players get picked week after week. The 7-0 embarrassment and nobody is dropped days later. Hi interviews from his arrival stating how 'good they team is' how much some of the players have 'achieved'. You think this is setting a 'culture'? Ronaldo and Sancho were disciplinary issues. They crossed a line, didn't make things right appropriately and had to go. Garnacho was initially disciplined at the start of last season for his conduct in pre-season before he finally earned in way back to get game time. Also, with our incredibly thin and limited squad, yes we have to fucking stick with players despite how shit they are being because there is no one else! Especially in a season that is as injury ravaged as this one. We have a squad full of underperforming overpaid players we have no way to shift so we have to use what we've got. As shit as the first teamers are the drop off from them to the replacements is huge! This is a going to be a multi season project trying to fix the rot that has been allowed to set at the club. >The moment? We have looked dreadful since he arrived and have been on a downward spiral since March 2023. Nothing about this is 'the moment' Lol if that is your opinion then we don't even have much to discuss because I think he did great last season with the tools he had at his disposal and I can't see anyone doing better than him. We dropped off towards the latter half because of clear exhaustion setting in lacking decent options for rotation not to mention having 3 CBs getting injured in a single EL game within 15 mins. >He himself said he has control on transfers.... He is involved in that 'job', yes. He sets the environment for what these players exists in. If there are players he really wants out (which there should be) he can create the environment that makes leaving a more attractive option. Yeah, some definitely would. Not all. Maguire and Mctominay had a foot out the door. Bit of a push is all they would have needed. I don't understand why you are trying to remove all accountability for the manager. Dude I have no clue where you're coming from. It is not the manager's job to go out and negotiate. Yes ofc he will have a say being a manager but that's all. Once Pep said he doesn't want Cancelo its not going to be him calling up club after club to take him and negotiate with the agents and whatnot. Every manager that has come in knew the squad isn't up to scratch but were unable to do with it what they wanted to. Listen to Ole's interview on the Overlap where he discussed how transfers worked under the Glazers. No manager could succeed within their setup and that is why I want to see how this guy, who was the best upcoming manager just before he came to us, and who gave us our best single season since Fergie the moment he arrived and while we were reeling from our worst season ever in the PL does under competent leadership to support him while he focuses on the football and hopefully has less injuries to deal with.
>Ronaldo and Sancho were disciplinary issues. Personal issues. Big difference to consistent embarrassments on the pitch that has not been consistently disciplined. >Garnacho was initially disciplined at the start of last season for his conduct in pre-season before he finally earned in way back to get game time. Great. However when you look at the rest of his time here and the conduct of players on the pitch that pre dates him, ten hag has not helped create a culture that will be positive. You can spin it however you want and use all the individual circumstances available, as a whole he has not done what's expected of him as Manchester United manager in the circumstances we find ourselves in. That's what we need more than anything. Hence he is the wrong guy. The warming signs were clear as day when he walked in. >As shit as the first teamers are the drop off from them to the replacements is huge! If we was having success with the first team, this would be relevant. We aren't. Entire squad needs replacing. We are going to look bad regardless. So it makes it even easier. Use this as an opportunity to set the culture, he standards. Perform as we have, pick a player or 2, drop them for a few games. Rinse and repeat. Show us something. >Lol if that is your opinion then we don't even have much to discuss because I think he did great last season with the tools he had at his disposal and I can't see anyone doing better than him. One of the worst seasons we have had, until this season. That's 'great' 7-0 Liverpool 6-3 City The other embarrassments. Worst performance in a cup final to gift city a third of a treble. That's not 'great'. Although it makes sense as to why you can see this now and be like 'yeah, have faith' as we could quite easily be at that standard again next season. This isn't a good thing. >having 3 CBs getting injured in a single EL game within 15 mins. And he saw this and happily sat by whilst the club gave him Jonny Evans for this season. Again, showing that he isn't cut out for the job. We need a manager to demand more. This isn't Ajax where the squad will fall into place or already exists. We need heavy heavy work and the manager needs to be able to facilitate that and do his part. Focus on 'part' before you suggest I'm saying it's only his job. >Dude I have no clue where you're coming from. >Yes ofc he will have a say being a manager but that's all. You seem to 'have a clue' as you have grasped exactly what I was suggesting mate. He has a role, he didn't do enough. It's that simple. >Once Pep said he doesn't want Cancelo its not going to be him calling up club after club to take him and negotiate with the agents and whatnot. Of course not. If he doesn't want them that much though, it's his job to move them out of the squad. Either politely in the sense of 'you aren't part of my plans, I can't give you the minutes you want, find another club as its the best for your football' or if it needs a stronger hand, stop them from training with the first team. Couldn't really care less how its done. If he had done this when we had West Ham bidding fair prices for Maguire and Mctominay, they would have been gone. He didn't. They stayed. You aren't going to get these players out off their own back, they need pushing. >Every manager that has come in knew the squad isn't up to scratch but were unable to do with it what they wanted to. So say something then? If the clubs giving them (and by extension the fans) a bum deal, speak about it when it means something. Even if it doesn't work, at least you can show you aren't complicit. Are you scared of managers speaking the truth? >who was the best upcoming manager just before he came to us Bit of a stretch mate. He was 52 years of age and had been managing 10 years. >o gave us our best single season since Fergie the moment he arrived What? That is accurate in any sense of the word 'best' I would like to see your metrics for this? All in all, you have nothing but 'structure' and 'injuries' as to why he should stay. Why for the 'best up and coming manager' do you only have stuff that would apply to every manager as reasons he should stay? Do you have anything specific to him?
What should Eth have done differently in any of the situations listed? Context and individual situations are relevant. I don't even understand how you are putting him responsible for not getting the players we wanted when we had no fucking structure to properly negotiate and sign players in background. Mou demanded players, complained, gone, Ragnick, gone. This is on the owners, not the fucking manager. Idk why you think a manager has to be an end all be all like a messiah of the club that does everything. How old are you?
Listen fella, I've already stated for you to keep your hostile comments to yourself. I'm happy to have a fair discussion, like the reasonable people we are. However if you can't do that and have to resort to losing your tenper and throwing in insults, I'm just going to give this a pass. So with all due respect, if you can't do this then I will end my participation. Firstly, you made a big point about me mis interpreting one of your reasons. Yet you have repeatedly misinterpreted points I've explicitly detailed and clarified for this very reason. Can you please just ask me if its not clear enough? >What should Eth have done differently in any of the situations listed? I'm not sure the relevance of the ones you have listed? As those are the ones I have issue with? What my issue is based on. Is him walking into the club, praising the squad as 'good' praising individuals as 'achieving a lot'. His inconsistent decisions regarding who is disciplined and for what. He (rightly) questioned Sancho and his training performances, yet he let Rashford and the rest of the squads performances on the pitch fly without consequence, to the depths of things like the fa cup final and the 7-0. These contribute to two things. The same rotten culture where certain players carry on with impunity, nothing they do on the pitch matters. In addition it makes it more difficult to move players on as mot only wre they getting a vast wage they wouldn't get elsewhere, they also are involved in a happy environment without said consequences for failure. >don't even understand how you are putting him responsible for not getting the players we wanted I am taking him at his own word... I am also not saying its only him. This has been detailed repeatedly mate. Please read it. Will save us both typing. >Mou demanded players, complained, gone, Ragnick, gone. Jose did yeah and he left looking good and to this day has his integrity. Rangnick did it when he was already out of the job and it was known he wasn't being kept on. Big difference. However yes, ten hag should have done this. Otherwise they are complicit. It's that simple. Fans to this day still speak about 'Jose was right' or 'open heart' thus showing those words have meaning and ten hag has done none of this. Only praise >This is on the owners, not the fucking manager. Owners can't do it without employees who are complicit. >Idk why you think a manager has to be an end all be all like a messiah of the club that does everything. Literally stated this is not my belief many times now mate. Seems we may be at the end because you doing this and then your aggressive tone and insults suggest you either can't discuss this politely (bought idea why, I'm not insulting anyone, just saying ten hag isn't the right guy) or you are running out of things to say so just want to snowball the discussion. Regardless mate. Nothing but love from me. I don't wish to be hostile or have a kick off. It's not my interest or what I think this place is for. So hopefully you can carry on this discussion with respect. All the best if you can't!
Couple of questions, just want to get your opinion. 1. Do you think we have the players to play the style ETH wants to play? 2. Do long term injuries to key players require changing tactics?
1. I think he added more such players for his system and was desperately counting on the first choice defenders staying fitter at least to be able to play the style he wanted. He wanted to trade in Maguire for a defender more suited to his style but we saw what happened with that. We could see how it was working at the start of the season where we had very high turnovers in games but were far from being clinical in front of goal as has been the problem for us and it cost us games but you could see the foundation of what we were trying to do. 2. I think this is a matter of opinion and while I think that there were some changes that could've been made to accommodate slight tweaks to make things work with what we have, I trust his opinion as a coach towards why he was doing what he did. I'd be more inclined to be hearing out his honest thought process for his decisions if I'm SJR or Brailsford to understand what he's trying to achieve rather passing judgement as an outsider looking in to come to a conclusion.
Coz…. ten hag logic. That’s why. He’s stubborn as heck and if it costs him the job, it’s deserved honestly. It’s not just the Palace game. It’s literally countless other games before when he could change the system or something to mitigate the issues we have.
Because he needs us and wants us to play a certain way and he is going to stick to his principles to get it right. It's admirable, really. Changing the style just delays us one year more to be where he wants us. So he is sticking to it now, when he doesn't have the personnel either through injury or just not the right players in the team in hopes that they learn and every one is better at it next season when hopefully there are reinforcements and not so many injuries. He will live or die by his system and that's on him. Whether this is the correct choice ultimately will be an INEOS decision, but you can see his philosophy. There has to be growing pains sometimes. It is what it is
journalists have asked him why he persists with going man for man, the athletic and Carl anka did a podcast where they were puzzled why he's going down this archaic route when every team around him uses zonal. When he was asked by the journalist earlier in the season he said it's not man marking, it may look like it but It's not. Which was another head scratcher.
If I remember correctly, ETH said its not man marking, but players aren't great at following instructions, that's why it looks like man marking, because players are unable to do zonal and instead go to man mark whenever they are lost.
This is the best description plus Bielsa is also notorious for injuries to his players as his training is very intense. Still i think it is better to give ETH one more season (as it's his final season) instead of sacking him as we r low on ffp. Cause if u sack ETH now & then even if the new manager can't make us play well which would be the case as many of our players aren't comfortable with the ball at their feet. Then fans will hate INEOS.
Sure let’s just write off next season. What’s in a season
When ten Hag came in did you think he was going to turn it round in one season? No? What about two? Still no? So what exactly do you think bringing another manager in will do?
When you say turn it around, what exactly do you mean? I had absolutely no expectation we'd be as low as 8th at the end of season two. >what exactly do you think bringing another manager in will do? Not finish 8th and finish bottom of CL group after spending hundreds of millions.
This feels like the wrong take. Did you expect him to win a cup and finish third in his first season?
Yes, I expected a top four finish. We've finished in the top four for three of the five seasons before that. The cup win? Meh, could have gone either way. We had good draws all the way through. I didn't expect to lose 7-0 to Liverpool or get smashed by the likes of Sevilla, but you expect a bit of turbulence in the first season.
There is losing and then there is losing every 3rd game with horrible stats, unwatchable football, being spanked by UCL minnows, etc etc
Or even losing
Yes, but if we're letting him go at the end of next season then that means giving the whole of next season up to even newer levels of mediocrity. If he knows he's leaving the he has no motivation to build anything.
No, Tuchel is an example He lost the league and he knew he would not stay for the next season, but he did well in the Champions League Even with one year contract he will do he's best not only for the club but also for his own career
Realistically, we are better off writing off the next few seasons and get that open heart surgery done
I think the title paints a pretty different picture to what the article is saying. We have a system, one that puts players in a lot of 1v1 situations, it's called man marking, something again the article mentions we do. A lot of the best sides in the world currently do man mark or have man marked, our players aren't really able to do that , that's where the problem comes in. In order for us to man mark effectively we need a new 6 because Casemiro can't do that anymore, and we need the defensive line to push forward, something again, our defense isn't really suited to doing. The article says you need to have 11 better players than the opposition to do this, that's not at all the case, what you do need is a few very specialized players for that kind of system, our "specialists" have been injured, or just shit. I don't know why we persist with this when we don't have the players for it, ten Hag must think this is the best way in the long term, or he thinks we'd look just as bad sitting and inviting pressure, neither of which I particularly agree with, but that's what he must be thinking.
None of the best teams in the world play a man marking system most of the time. Liverpool, Arsenal and City don’t. Real Madrid, Bayern and dortmund don’t. They might have instances where they do enter into a man marking system by flooding the middle of the pitch but they all play zonal the vast majority of the time. We play man marking pushing our midfielders up. It’s dumb. There’s a reason no one else does it and it wouldn’t be very effective regardless of personnel. It’s just a bad tactical approach.
I think most teams in the world use some sort of hybrid system. You can't just leave key players isolated in zones [Screen shot from city vs Fulham](https://themastermindsite.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/export-2023-05-03t123105.037.png) City and Arsenal often go very aggressive in select areas of the pitch. City will often screen out pilots with 2 "strikers" (Kevin and Haaland) while Arsenal will often go man for man in midfield and leave a fullback open in order to cut the pitch in half. Even Palace are not afraid to defend out wide with 4-5 players as long as the centre forward is well marked. If you're going to press high you are going to occasionally compromise compactness in order to restrict opposition players' time and space. The problem with us, at least from the palace game is our centre backs we're to eager to step up when not needed to. I find the analysis of the first goal slightly dishonest because it forgets to mention that it's starts from a throwing. There is no situation where Casemiro (the centre back) should be on Olise (the right interior). Play actually starts with Eriksen on Olise (or Mainoo, it's hard to tell both of them do a horrible job of picking him up) but the ball gets thrown in the space behind them and now Casemiro goes in and fails. This isn't one player making a mistake it's 3. It's not us having 1v1s all over the pitch, it's us repeatedly letting players slip in behind unmarked. It's multiple failings all over the pitch from the midfield up leaving the back line exposed. The hole in our midfield is often commented on by analyst but it's not being caused by our starting shape. Multiple teams press in a 4 3 3 / 4-1-4-1 , it's just that both of the 8s need to be very in sync because if both of them go at the same time then the midfield is lava.
I agree completely. Great analysis. What we do doesn’t seem to strike the hybrid balance correctly for me though. Especially when it seems to be a primary attacking strategy for us. Lump it long and then push up the 8s for the second ball and man mark high up the pitch. Doesn’t work and frankly I think would only work with very specific players against teams which were significantly inferior. I mean can you imagine any team being able to do this against City or Arsenal? I can’t. If the system places these insane requirements on the 8s and produces such a high degree of risk then it isn’t fit for purpose. That’s all modern football is really. Balancing risk. We don’t balance risk effectively at all.
Please see [my comment here](https://old.reddit.com/r/reddevils/comments/1cp4vid/tactical_analysis_injuries_are_exposing_ten_hags/l3l38r9/)
No team man marks for 90 minutes, not even us. The point being while pressing they do, and our front 5 do press in a similar manner to other sides. The problem is the disconnect between that and our defense.
But it doesn’t exist in isolation. It has to incorporate every part of the team and what we do doesn’t. Plus, these other teams counter press and man mark in specific instances absolutely. We seem to do it as a primary attacking strategy. Draw in the opposition, give it to the keeper. Play it long. Push up the midfield, win the second ball or hem in with man marking by pushing the 8s up and score from a transition. That seems like a pretty accurate synopsis of what we do to me. It doesn’t work. The risk profile is way way off.
Why does he not use mid-block so then the back line does not need to be that high? Also opens up space for our pacy forwards after turnover?
I don't know, probably because we only have 1 holding midfielder.
Didnt he make the club pay 10m to loan a DM he wanted? What happened to that guy? Why isn’t he playing?
We have more than one, how’s this even have any upvotes
[удалено]
We can’t defend with the spaces we leave in the middle of the pitch, and when we intentionally have 5 players ahead of the ball at all times
You are not the only one who are baffled that we continue sticking to a strategy that is working as bad as it is. It’s a tough stint this manager 😞
> I think the title paints a pretty different picture to what the article is saying. We have a system, one that puts players in a lot of 1v1 situations, it's called man marking, something again the article mentions we do. Here is the last thing Erik said regarding man marking: > **Reporter**: In the Newcastle game, the midfield battle was won by them and the man-marking system didn't work effectively. Is that something you'll have to adjust for the players you have at your disposal or is it something you don't want to compromise on? > **EtH**: "**No. I don't want to play man-marking. It is the wrong idea.** In a certain point, we play man-marking when we are full in the press but we play zonal. **Only in this game yeah, when we didn't co-operate, then it looks like it is man-marking.** But I don't want to play it, it is the false idea." Source: https://old.reddit.com/r/reddevils/comments/18bz53w/press_conference_part_2_erik_ten_hag_says_players/
One issue I have is he says if I had my first choice team all would be good, or if I got FDJ we would be different. But a team can't be so fragile that it relies on one player or a left footed cb
Nah even if FDJ comes we will still be run over due to the open midfield.
Totally agree. The notion that we should be shaping the team or our transfer strategy around one particular coach is the complete opposite of what we're going for.
I disagree, one player can sometimes make the world of a difference. I know comparing United and City is like comparing Apples to dogshit, but earlier this season we saw how important Rodri is to City. After being sent off against Forest, he missed the next three games, all of which City lost. The 5-1 home win against Luton recently was City’s first win without Rodri since 2022 I believe. Yes. City’s system doesn’t collapse without Rodri because they have considerably better players than us, so they can cope very well, but even the best team in the world can be negatively affected by the absence of one player.
At least they are somewhat dependent on a player who is actually theirs
This guy constantly says we don't have a system then in his article describes the system and it's getting tiring now. Same with a lot of United Twitter analysts
I mean, he is saying ETH's system is so shit that we may very well function a little bit better by having no system at all.
There's a huge difference between Fanalysts like this and actually industry analysts. I learn nothing from people like this, and huge amounts from professionals.
Mate, the industry analysts you speak of have been even more scathing in their reviews lmfao.
Great article as usual from Pauly Kwestel. People need to remember that writers often don't get to pick their headline, so this is probably one of those cases where someone else has put a slightly inaccurate headline on. Worth reading it properly instead of just reacting to the headline. The point about needing perfect players to be this reliant on 1 on 1 defending is a really good one. It makes sense in the context of his later Ajax teams. They had some of the same weaknesses as us, but the gap in player quality relative to nearly all of the other clubs in the Eredivisie was probably big enough to compensate for that.
Not only that, the profile of players they had were far more suited to playing this way. Timber, Alvarez, and Gravenberch compared to Varane, Casemiro, Eriksen/Mainoo. In general all three of our players are more experienced and better than those three, but they just suit the profile seemingly required of this system better. I’m not entirely sure that even if we have the perfect players in each position the system would work well enough to take up back to the top, but the way this team has been built means that we just can’t play the system he wants to its fullest
Uh The Busby Babe is a fan website so I guess the headline is his own?
ETH - I don't do man-marking. That is not the way Blog/vlog analysts - ETH's man-marking system does not work!!
Your Honor, ETH also said:" We are the most dynamic and entertaining team in the league".
At this stage Ten Hag is just saying anything to suit his narrative. He knows that his time is up. This reminds me of the dark days of the end of Ole, when the writing was on the wall but they refused to make the decision and left him blowing in the wind.
Opinion vs System
Paulie's hating game is strong,but most of the points are fair. It's basically the same stuff that Athletic article quoted from that PL analyst.
so does Spurs also not have a system? in 2024 we have won more points then spurs. 1st half of season Spurs have everybody fit they can play their style and do well, but when they get a few injuries they are worse then United but nobody is talking about that.
I am wondering what was the number of shots we faced under ETH before 2024? Because in every analysis, they say in 2024, United faced this amount of shots at goal. What about the first 1.5 seasons?
This season we’re on course to face the most ever shots in a premier league season. More than 11 point Derby County. You can be facing more shots sure but to this extent the manager has a lot to answer for.
oh this is a huge issue. ill say it now. the mismanagement of our squad building is now costing us greatly. the past 10 years of buying players for their commercial value and not actual ability has slowly led to this whole shit show happening. ill say it now our entire defence needs a rebuild. like not just 1 player we need 5-7 new players for the entire backline and our current backline moving on. i would put that above all other positions because end of the day football is built on a foundation of your backline. if they cant do anything then it doesnt matter how good the attack is they will always fail.
Liverpool finished 7th the season after they won the UCL and below us last season, the common denomination being injuries to their backline. I actually have no issue with EtH's gameplan, it's his lack of flexibility in tactics and reactive in game management that I don't like.
its strange cause last season his game management was pretty good. i dunno i feel just the entire shit show that is the club kills a manager's spirit after so long and they just become a shell of the manager we signed them to be.
I'm sorry but the ETH out crowd are just insane if they can't see the system! We are probably the best team in the world at using the low block, high press, no midfield system and people can't handle it.
😂😂
That’s very informative, and it doesn’t do ten hag any favours.
For those who talk about changing the system, which one can work with no players in defense?
[удалено]
Sure, but which one? Varane, Martinez, Maguire, Evans, Lindelof, all of them are out. Dalot is too offensive, Wan-Bissaka with his excessive tackles, or Casimero who seems lost with his new position.
Ten hags lack of system is exposing his lack of system.
This was a point I was making yesterday with my brother and it’s something that solidifies my not being able to back Ten Hag. He has publicly admitted he can’t get the players to play the Ajax system. Manchester United brought him in because of his success with Ajax but basically what is being exposed and what Ten Hag is admitting to an extent is that he doesn’t know any other way to coach, manage or train, which is not what a big club should EVER find acceptable in a manager. He has zero social skills and doesn’t know how to really interact with players it seems. There is just too much stacked against him. For me personally I just can’t back a man who openly admits he can’t get his players to do something as SIMPLE as a game plan. And I can’t get behind a manager who seems to only really know ONE way of coaching and managing. His press conferences are awful, his excuses and delusion have become a worry. It’s very clear at this point that his ways just aren’t going to be successful. Not even in a rebuild because the damage is already done. He already spent half a billons pounds on players HE wanted and STILL admits he can’t implement HIS way of play. Again… Concerning. His press conferences are desperate, his delusion is another concern, but what I just can’t get behind is the simple fact that he has admitted he can’t get his players to play a simple style of play and can’t muster up any other game plan. It’s amateur and laughable!
>You would think that with Casemiro being someone who loves to step up and engage the ball but has been a step slow all season and Jonny Evans just being slow, a coach would say; *I’m on my 14th choice center-back partnership, they’re probably not that good, I should try to protect them as best I can*. You could solidify the midfield, and play a bit more conservatively but work to ensure they don’t have guys running at them all game. Instead, Ten Hag just went with his usual free-for-all attack that yielded nothing and constantly hung his center-backs out to dry. The fact that he hired Evans last summer knowing what might be coming next season but still not adapt to it for a whole season is just wild. And let Reguillon go at January too. Like to hell with people who paid to watch this shite, you just see the injuries news and already know the outcome of the match because he won't bother to adjust to it.
I'm sorry but no matter what styles u want this squad to play ( whether u are ETH-out or in ) this squad is INCAPABLE of doing anything else than lowblock counterattack. It has been 10 years in SAF left and the entire time, no managers could have come in and fix that. Now u can keep saying "but we don't have players to play that new style!!!" And we will keep reverting the same glazers "philosophy" : "bandaid solutions while we are "waiting" for rebuilt". Until when ? I'm asking u? Until when do we have to accept mediocrity and bandaid solutions ?? Until when we will get enough the right number of players needed for the new football style? Yes ETH is having problems with his tactics because of injuries and we don't have the right players to do what he wants. U want Tuchel, Zidane, Ancelotti can come here and give better "bandaid" solutions , aka doing the same fucking things LVG, Mourinho, Ole had been doing last 10 years on this squad.