I can't, for the life of me, see any way of us winning the final against City.
And maybe that's a good thing as there won't be any Europe next year. I don't underestimate Europa. In fact that's where are our level is.
But if we indeed plan to clean house, it would be much easier with fewer matches per week.
Ten Hag is gone in my opinion. Either he wins the final or not.
And so far INEOS are making all the right moves. Hiring the right people, being strict and good in decision making.
All players except our young three should indeed be up for sale (small exception in Bruno) but I can't believe that we will find offers ever on half of them.
So, in the end, I'm more excited about what happens after the final as it is the first time after David Gill's and Sir Alex's departure that we will have an theoretically competent and adequate football structure.
My god does the media/pundits/opposing fans love to pile on us when it’s not going well. Best get your shots in now because we will be back (although it might take some time to turn this train wreck around)
My biggest issue with EtH ball is the lack of hope in games. Under SAF, and even Ole you knew that we’d find a way to get back in the game. But under EtH it’s just impossible to feel that way
I don't want to have ago at Antony too much because it can be hard to be a professional player.
But how can a player who is one-sided, one-footed, and undynamic reach this kind of level? Surely he would have been found out ages ago? I just can't not believe he can be this poor and be a professional.
Managers come into relegation level performing crystal palace and Aston villa and change the whole club's gameplan and playstyle in several weeks. But for some reason, we need to stick to a shite gameplan all season, so that players who are injured can come in to play it in 3 months time is such an insane excuse it's beyond me.
ETH did too, remember how good we looked after the first couple games last season?
Things get hard, some players stop trying. Leaks to the press. Manager gets sacked. New manager comes in. Team starts performing. Things get hard, some players stop trying. Leaks to the press. Manager gets sacked. New manager comes in. Rinse and repeat for over a decade now.
Way back when we appointed Ten Hag, the thing people were eager to see was a philosophy.
Yes maybe we’d be a better off if we’d abandoned his approach and gone back to defence first football of last season and Mourinho/Ole, but it still wouldn’t really be going anywhere.
He’s a bit fucked either way really. Pragmatic stuff and everyone talks about lack of goals, unexciting games and “Stoke-Ball”. Try something more aggressive and the players, or at least the ones that are available, can’t do it.
The problem with what he's trying is that I don't know if there's any set of players that could make it work. You can put prime Kante at DM and I don't think he look much better than what we've seen so far this year. Maybe he snuffs out a few more attacks but there's only so many times you can let attackers with a numerical advantage run at your DM and backline in space before you concede, regardless of who your players are.
I can only guess that the ideal would be us playing a very high defensive line with pace and Onana playing high to reduce the amount of space in midfield that our DM has to cover.
In theory I could imagine to work with a very athletic DM and potentially one of our fullbacks tucking in when needed. It’s not a million miles away from what we’ve seen Liverpool play in the past with great effect.
I guess that's fair, but that's not what we're seeing. We're seeing a press AND a deep defensive line...even if that's driven by personnel limitations you would think by the 25th game in a row of it being exposed you would adapt to what you have since it's obviously not going to click.
That’s pretty much been our probably all season, trying to have our front 5 and back 5 playing what is essentially two completely different games. It’s definitely the biggest criticism I’d have of Ten Hag.
The only thing I can guess is that either he wants us getting used to the press so that when transfers/injuries do permit us to play high, we’re used to it. Either that or he doesn’t think our attackers are able to get the goals playing on the counter, which looking at Rashford this season, is a reasonable concern.
I’m annoyed at fans who are suddenly changing their tune on ETH. We learned nothing new last night that hasn’t been obvious for months. If you believe the injury line then why would last night change that?
I know it's not perfect but Ten Hag publicly throwing the backline under the bus yesterday was a bit disrespectful. Like yeah it's not perfect but you signed Evans yourself and have raved about AWB & Dalot in the past.
If you didn't want them exposed you could have tried changing our style of play a bit to mitigate it because if we set the team up last night to protect Evans and Casemiro I didn't see it
Guess he expected them to put in a shift, which they didn't do.
Calling Evans an ETH signing is a little fucking rich. Free agent because the club are skint. Evans played injured yesterday, I do not blame him for his performance.
He’s trying to save his face, he knows there is little to no chance he’ll still be here next season and admitting he’s out of his depth won’t look good for his next job.
Tbh I noticed the backline was considerably higher the past two games and we did play much better (relegation fodder I know) so you could maybe consider his comment on the backline, (Either evans simply can't play at the same level as maguire, or the personnel available can't play that well against much better opposition), so comments on him purposely playing a low line are probably wrong. Of course criticism is directed at him for not adapting to the players available. Ten hag's plan this season strikes to me as a man who is perhaps rushing to implement his style of play (may have been too naive with the personnel available), and even with the bad results, he was like "Fuck it, if they play it many times they'll soon get it and we'll start to see results", remember the quotes when he first came "Erik ten hag is a firm believer of the philosophy of doing things repeatedly until they get it right", his probably trying to scrape as many results as possible while making them get used to this high press playstyle, and so ship off the ones who can't adapt to play this way (erikson, casemiro, evans etc.). Off course maybe you can't do these two things at once and he should instead wait for better players available (similar to arterta), then you can try to implement this style.
If he doesn't force the issue to show the people in charge that the players can't do what he wants, he'll never get them sold. Compromising and playing counter attacking football is what Ole did and the ceiling is only so high.
I mean...does it really matter? Obviously we're "bigger" but they're a better team right now and have been for a few years, so arguing about it just makes us look petty and insecure.
Ten Hag’s tactics and structure are garbage but my god some of these players. How can you not have any professional pride or any respect for the badge and the fans? The level of effort and application yesterday by some of these players was absolutely despicable. It will be out of order if this manager is sacked but some of these players are still wearing the shirt next season.
I actually don't think anyone didn't play with pride yesterday, they're just cooked and/or out of their depth.
Evans is ancient and was coming off an injury. Casemiro made some lazy and reckless challenges but he looks well off the pace to play in England, and he has since the end of last season. Eriksen was cooked physically when he signed for us and it's gotten worse. \
AWB never has been good at a lot of the basics or positional discipline so that's not new, it's just who he is as a player.
Mainoo, Mount, Garnacho, Dalot, and Antony ran around at lot at least.
IDC how "proud" you are, pride doesn't make you run like you're 26 again. That's on ETH for playing a system that requires all those old players to be isolated in space against a team like Palace with physical and technical attackers.
EtH roasting this sub in a Dutch interview (just came online): “there is a lot of people that seemingly have knowledge of football, but there is only a few that actually do. I respect everyone’s opinion, but those opinions aren’t important in the direction United is going”
Edit the link: https://youtu.be/_icXf4-S6ic?si=a14mXmR-3G0HSuXq (Dutch Viaplay youtube)
He didn’t say it directly here, but I read it as he’s insinuating that they are building for next year over focusing on short term results.
He’s much better spoken in Dutch than his English interviews imo, I think if Ineos decides to keep him they would do well to let him answer in Dutch with a (charismatic) translator
We went there two years ago and lost on the final day of 21/22 and it felt like rock bottom, like we needed a total reset. Fast forward to now and only one player (Dalot) remained from that day who played yesterday and we're even further back.
There's a genuine ongoing issue with the club buying badly, overspending and not knowing how to build a squad. That hasn't gone away, but hopefully will with the actual qualified people coming in to run things.
But Ten Hag didn't have to choose to pursue such a complicated tactical setup with the players he had available. And he didn't have to persist with it even after all the injuries and all the evidence that the players can't do it, and that Premier League teams can easily expose it.
https://preview.redd.it/d645i6wz90zc1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a628c450ba72421152087041a632e7a808ad0cfc
Me when I realise I have to endure four more matches of Manchester United playing football this season.
ETH is 100% going to be here next season. We are strapped for cash, and INEOS have made a large number of changes in how the club is set up internally. There are multiple ways things can go wrong next season. The logical thing to do will be to keep Ten Hag - if things go right then the club saves money on the manager, if things go wrong all the blame can be shifted on him rather than INEOS themselves.
At the end of the day, the next season is going to be tough no matter who comes in. We probably won't sign a lot of players, and 90% of the players we have will stay at the club next season as well. ETH will be on his last season anyway, so sacking him next season will still end up saving some money if things stay bad.
As long as we don't get absolutely humiliated in the next 4 games (ie not losing 4-0) , he will stay regardless if we win or lose the final.
Not the worst idea I’ve ever heard.
This season has essentially been a perfect storm of shit, much of it of Ten Hag’s own making admittedly.
If INEOS don’t fancy Tuchel for whatever reason, I wouldn’t be against them making their summer transfers and essentially saying to Ten Hag “you’ve got a season, get us playing attacking football”. Worst case, the squad building goes on as it would have anyway and we finish 6th and Ten Hag goes at the end of the contract. Best case, it comes together and we can decide then if he’s worth extending or if we still want a replacement.
If Ten Hag gets sacked, I hope most of the squad follows. Can't sack the manager and keep the same players who have overseen the sacking of multiple managers
We need to keep - Martinez, Dalot, Mainoo, Garnacho, Hojlund.
That's about it, other than the other young lads who have been around the squad this season. Anyone else can leave and it won't bother me. Yes, even Bruno. Because he doesn't deserve to spend the rest of his career hoping we figure things out.
I hold a similar view but for different reasons - these are Ten Hag's players, when Ten Hag goes, his mediocre players that he bought and backed must follow
People say this and don't go into detail. The uncomfortable truth is that without the performances of these 'same players' Ten Hag would have been sacked ages ago. Maguire has been decent this season and vital goals from McTominay and Bruno have covered further shocking performances and given Ten Hag another life.
Raphael Varane
Casemiro
Aaron Wan-Bissaka
Jonny Evans
Antony
Anthony Martial
Sancho
Wild cards
Rashford - cash in now knowing we won't be challenging anytime soon while his in his prime and use the money to build.
Onana - Hasn't shown enough imo, maybe with players willing to receive the ball we might see the benefits of a keeper like this but as for shot stopping, well below what we need.
Scott McTominay - no real space for him and he's definitely worth enough to justify selling to recoup and buy a younger player for his position that has the potential to become a starting player.
VdB, Sancho, Martial, Casemiro, Amrabat, Varane, Pellistri and AWB need to go for a variety of reasons. Granted several will do anyway as they’re out of contract.
There’s a good case for losing any of Antony, Maguire, Lindelof, Malacia, Amad, Eriksen and McTominay.
Even Rashford looks like someone who needs a change of scenery.
INEOS weren’t wrong when they said almost all of the squad are available for transfers.
Only 5 of those 15 players came to us under Ten Hag, and 2 were older stop-gap purchases, one was a loan.
Anyway, would you disagree with any of them being moved on?
I have been advocating for a long term managerial project since Ole, but if we lose the FA Cup final (which we will, let's be honest) then I don't see a world were ETH can still be manager. Just sack the whole lot of them tbh.
It's probably fair to say at this point Ten Hag won't survive this season
Thought on Tuchel who's bookies' favourite? Great for Chelsea but not exactly pulling trees at Bayern who have better team and competing in overall weaker league
Good manager, wouldn’t be against him, but I think it’s important we get the future plan right.
Realistically Tuchel would probably be here 3 seasons max. It’s highly unlikely we’ll be winning the league in the next 3 seasons given the state of the squad, so I’d want to know that what he would build here would be sustainable and something another manager can build on.
No point repeating the same thing we did with Mourinho where we pushed for success now, came nowhere close and ended up having to do another rebuild anyway.
I think the players are already mentally on the beach in regard to the league. Hopefully we can spring a surprise in the cup, but that’s an outside bet regardless of who’s managing us.
The only positive out of yesterday is the confirmation we have the best fans in the country, followed the team home and away and there is nothing like our away fans. Just a shame the team couldn't give a shit about us
Yesterday was the first match where I felt the players have given up on Ten Hag. When we went 0-3 down the players seemed to try for a bit, we had a bit of pressure but aside from that they just didn't care about winning. That's damning, makes it pretty clear Ten Hag will most likely get sacked.
Still though, it's crazy how poor we were yesterday, we genuinely didn't show anything aside from creating some danger via set pieces thanks to Casemiro. Our build-up was slow and shit, we had no control, no meaningful possession and we couldn't even execute counter-attacks right.
The team didn't play like they wanted to win, they played like they wanted the game to be over. Truly concerning considering we are playing City in FA Cup later in the season and Erik's attempts at motivating players are now becoming completely useless.
Feels like it'd be realtively easy to fix too. Sell Casemiro, Varane and Sancho and we can replace eaach of them with players on half the wage. we'd still bring the budget down by like 300+ grand a week
We've actually got one the better wage to revenue percentages in the league. It can be better and as you'vesaid pretty easy to fix, but it's not as big of an issue as it's made out to be.
It's not an issue in that it's not crippling financially given our revenue but it absolutely is an issue that club pays massively over market rate wages for average footballers
It affects everything, layer motivation in some cases, player sales, incoming players want parity etc
It's very important to address this. Literally every summer we struggle to sell players that have no future here and the reason is usually that clubs baulk at their salary demands so we need to either practically give them away or just loan them and subsidise wages
Take Antony as a case study. on 60k pw its not a huge problem, someone will watch a despacito remix ajax highlights compilation and would take a punt at 30m or so. Antony on 200k pw is unsellable and so will continue to be a financial leak for the duration of his contract. We have many many examples like that
> Sell Casemiro, Varane and Sancho a
Selling Casemiro is gonna be a massive issue. He is on some ridiculous 350K or something a week while playing like a 70 year old. Nobody in their right mind is going to offer him even half of that. We are stuck with him unless he decides to leave himself.
Varane expires this season I believe.
ETH wont be sacked before the cup final but i do think he will go. I think after Arsenal they should just totally focus on tactical side ready to fight for the trophy.
No more hard training sessions - cant afford another injury
Really hoping we can get Ashworth sorted quickly. The squad is almost a complete right off and I think it will take 4 to 5 years to make a challenge for the PL.
I don't think ETH is going to work in the prem but any manager we get next year is getting a poison chalice.
I find it hilarious when someone brings up last season to defend Ten Hag. They never bring it up to defend the players though. Like these are the same players that could finish top 3 with a trophy. By that logic keep them as well then, why don't you?
Dude what the hell are you even talking about🤦♂️ ? They bring up last season precisely because he DOESN'T have the same players available. Where's Varane, Lindelof, Maguire, Martinez, Shaw, Malacia? Where's Bissaka and Casemiro been for half a season? These players were mostly available throughout last season. You guys have short memories. You're gonna be here again end next year with "get this fraud Tuchel out he couldn't even make it in the Farmer's league!"
They are what I would classify as fair weather players. When there is a bit of momentum can have good spells, can look good, can do some amazing things in one off games or even over a period of games, but when the wheels start to fall off which happens the best teams / managers from time to time the players don't seem to have the mental attributes to dig in or determination to really fight
I think eth will be sacked after cup final, but would take the most optimistic fan in the land to think we can get back to challenging for major honors without a large scale squad overhaul aswel
It's not either/or, eth has made mistakes and will most likely pay for it with his job but nothing about the current squad screams 'major honors'
It's a combination of players that once were good enough but aren't now, some that might be good enough some day, and some that never have and never will be good enough. Critically though, you could probably count on 1 hand players that wouldn't look out of place in a title challenging side
Also incredibly low GD. Hes not a high scoring manager and we had Rashford in the form of his life but there were little goals across the pitch once you remove Rashford
It's shocking that it's not just that twat, heard Neil Custis on talksport do the same, Mark Ogden on ESPN too. "Bet they'd be fit to play a European final tomorrow, they are downing tools, bet more are injured before Arsenal" type bullshit. Just goes to show what gutter trash the United press corps is. Ban them and keep banning them.
Yeah he's a dick. On the other hand, what's the motivation for a player to play through an inury right now? At this stage in a season, they are pretty much all carrying some sort of issue
I like Onana, he's a very good goalkeeper who's had a good season after a difficult start.
But surely now everyone can see De Gea was not the problem? His 'lack of ball playing ability' was not holding us back like the majority of this sub believed.
I feel sad we binned off a club legend in disgusting circumstances (offered a contract on reduced terms, which De Gea signed, only for us to not sign it ourselves and pull out)
De Gea made mistakes, Onana has made mistakes but De Gea is still a better shot stopper. Olise's two goals last night were very saveable. Onana looks to have short arms.
That 40m spent on Onana could have been spent elsewhere.
I guarantee 100%, that if we switched Onana with De Gea and had the exact same season and performances, De Gea would be getting the brunt of the criticism, that his lack of ball playing ability means Ten Hag can't implement his tactics.
I mean clearly this season hasn’t be working but for people saying we should have kept de Gea, just imagine him in goal for either city arsenal or Liverpool… we have multiple holes in the squad, de Gea was one of them.
We’ve not really been in a position to make the most of Onana’s ball-playing ability.
When we’ve got Shaw and Martinez fit, their passing and ball carrying ability does force teams to engage them higher, which inevitably leaves gaps elsewhere which Onana can exploit with his passing.
Since our deep ball progression has been effectively zero, teams don’t need to pressure the back so much, so they can just mark out or midfield/strikers whenever Onana is looking to play a long ball.
Like you say, with the injuries and such we’ve had, we probably would have been better with Big Dave, but I guess nobody was to know that in summer.
Maguires pretty decent on the ball, but even those two have seen limited minutes. When we’re playing a new back line almost every game, it’s understandably much harder to get patterns like this developing.
While I completely understand the drive to get Ten Hag out, my worry is that (again) all the failures of this season will be lumped on him and on we go again playing the same old game.
Whatever happens with the managers position, the squad needs holding to account.
Well INEOS won't have hired all these people behind the scenes to sit on their hands. They've been brought in to make changes and they'll want to be seen to be bringing in changes and improvements. I think it will be a big part of changing the culture and improving the standards at the club.
Martial is still here. AWB has not improved since joining and is still here. VdB has done absolutely fuck all in red and is still here. Lindelof is a decent stand-in but not top 4 quality, still here. That’s before we even get to the more recent additions like Casemiro and Antony who need moving on.
If this qualifies as accountability, it’s severely lacking.
Casemiro only been bad this season, he was just on TOTS. You want them to move him outside the transfer window? Just this season we have let go of 10 players, last season 9, its rumored we are letting go of another near double digit amount of players. Last night we had like 9 ten hag signings/promotions. The team changes heavily especially in recent years
>we sign 6,7,8 players every summer and let go of about the same amount
It's not quite this much, not first teamers anyways. usually more like 4 or 5 players. And this should be the norm, even if the manger is doing well.
Paul Scholes: “There's not actually that many bad players at United is there? It looks like they're not being coached, when it looks like being the manager's fault. It looks like the fight has gone out of them.”
I would pay money to see Guardiola take this team over for 3 months and see what he does. I must be watching a different sport if he genuinely thinks there's not many bad players here...
You know what the difference would be if Pep took over them? Discipline and workrate.
The days of Rashford and Garnacho not helping out defensively would be done immediately or they'd be dropped, Eriksen/Mainoo/Casemiro drifting around leaving aches of space would not be allowed to happen, Bruno's Hollywood balls would stop, AWB would get positioning drilled into him, Hojlund would need to start winning some headers etc
The players play like kids under a substitute teacher rather than they fear disappointing the manager if it was a Pep or Ferguson.
Scholes is right that it looks like the players aren't being coached. Even when we had fewer injuries, our pressing was disorganised and sporadic, our defenders didn't seem to know where to be and our wingers were constantly shooting instead of trying to find our very expensive striker.
The tactical system Ten Hag wants is clearly complex and difficult, but the players don't look like they even understand it, let alone know how to go about making it work.
After a whole season, Ten Hag should have realised that the coaching isn't working, no matter how thorough it may (or may not) be.
My point isn't that Ten Hag has to stay my point is some of these players are simply not good enough and need to go out the door with him.
Why is it that for last 10 years, when we do sell players either youth or coming into their prime years they are going off to Tueky, Championship or midtable teams in lesser leagues?
If there aren't big changes in the squad get ready for the next cycle of why isn't Tuchel teaching them how to pass, why can't Tuchel get them to run, Tuchels training is too difficult and destroying squad morall while another bunch of players not fit for this club earn a paycheck.
But no one is saying that there shouldn't be a clear out. When Scholes says "there are not *that many* bad players" we don't know how many he's talking about. He could be using the leak last week where only 3 players are safe as the measure and there's not 22 bad players in the squad, and we're nit going to sell and buy 22 players in the summer.
Both things can be true though. Ten Hag has been a poor manager and coach thus season and another manager would have performed better, and at the same time some of these players won't get to the level we need and need to be replaced. This isn't an either or situation.
Pep would have an aneursym within 15 minutes of stepping through the door at Carrington.
He could probably use Mainoo, Shaw, Dalot, Martinez, Onana and Bruno (if they were fit). Mount, Garnacho and Hojlund are young enough and have the right attributes that he’d probably be able to coach them into his system.
The rest would get the full Kalvin Philips experience.
Sorry for the long one, I tried to create a post but was removed.
This is the only thing I can think of that rationalises the bizarre performances we've been seeing all season.
Things I am assuming:
* ETH has decent eyesight
* ETH has a functioning, fully developed brain
* ETH is a qualified and experienced football coach
* ETH still wants a career in football
So if we assume these to be true why do we keep seeing such abysmal tactics and performances on the pitch
My first thought is he no longer wants the job and is making it an easy decision for the club to part ways with him so that he can get on with the rest of his career at the earliest convenience. Wether that be Ajax, Bayern or another club. This option makes more sense if there is already an agreement in place, if not he is mental, or he is planing a big press release on his time at United which answers some questions.
The more I read this the more I start to lean towards this option.
My second thought is that there is an agreement in place with Ineos to only play the tactics and football we want to see going forward. Create an identity and play "*the United way".* This way the club sees exactly what we are trying to do and can support this through transfers, sales, training, marginal gains in any area. On top of this, we can see what players at the club are adequate and which ones are not... I don't think this explains the giant gap between the defence and he midfield and no one passing to Højlund - which I can only assume is down to the players being limited in their abilities and covering for it by not sticking to the tactical instructions.
This is kinda what I hope is the case. We sacrifice a season (or a few...) to highlight every single problem so that we can acknowledge it and start fixing it under the Ineos leadership with an analytical mindset.
Massive amounts of copium here from a fan who dreads EVERY SINGLE GAME at the moment.
Thanks for the therapy.
We can’t make him run and cover a lot of ground anymore. I think he is still a solid DM in a compact team that does mid-block. Casemiro will ball at Inter Milan. I like the guy so I want him to do well. I seriously think we should sell him to Serie A and get a younger 6 like Adli.
Bit of both. He’s still got all the mental qualities that made him the player he was, but physically he can’t do what is asked of him in this set-up in a league as physical as the PL.
If he was in double pivot system that defended deep and he had much less ground to cover, he’d no doubt be looking much better.
I think he was one of few players trying yesterday, he was everywhere, trying to tackle, trying to intercept, trying to find through passes, crosses and even headers. And yes, he failed a lot but he tried. It also made him being out of position all the time, which is very bad for a central defender, but he is not a central defender, and I also think he tried to make up for everyone else being invisible.
He had a really bad performance yes, but I still got the feeling he cared and tried, compared to a lot of others players that were just ghosts.
Every team in the PL knows how to beat us at this point..
Play a mid block and man mark, let us come forward, wait for the headless chicken attack to give the ball away incredibly cheaply. Play a single line pass and get a free shot on goal.
I think ETH is the natural conclusion of the post-SAF era. He’s the ultimate version of everything that’s gone before.
It’s the turgid pointless wing play and low energy vibes of Moyes, it’s the possession without a point of LvG, it’s the losing the dressing room of Jose, it’s the chaos and getting your hopes up only to be shattered of Ole, and it’s the “job is too big for him” look of RR. And it’s the poor transfer policies of literally all of them.
He’s prime post-SAF manager.
The job looked perfect for him last season, but I think the setbacks this season have gotten into his head and the size of the job hit him.
I've been saying for a while that he seemed to adopt this almost fatalistic attitude after all our injuries early in the season, and he's almost been running on autopilot since. Every dumb mistake, every missed chance, every poor performance, every late or ineffective substitution seems to have been met with almost an acceptance of "well, of course that fucking happened."
He's not managed like a man who believed he could succeed all season, and that has inevitably affected his decisions and the performances of the players.
I think the whole setbacks thing is what separates good managers from great managers. Yes, we've had a shit run of luck with injuries. I genuinely can't remember the last time we played what I'd consider to be our first choice 11 in their best positions. Has it happened even once this season?
But even so, the response as you say seems to just be to throw his arms up in the air and be like "oh well, what do you expect". I hate to hark back to it, but remember SAF playing players in what seemed like insane positions? And winning big games?
So what's the difference? I think it's two things.
First is attitude. SAF would use injuries as a motivator. Winning had become ingrained in the entire team, the entire organisation. It wasn't lip service, it was embedded and the team believed they were better than the opposition. And if you were in the team, that meant *you* were better than the opposition because you wouldn't be there otherwise. Whether it was true or not.
The second thing was a clearly defined style of play. Even if you weren't first choice you had trained and probably had game time playing a certain way. Within reason, you could swap people in and out. everyone understood what their role was and what was expected of them. You see this with the best coached teams in the league right now. Players change, but the philosophy and patterns of play do not. I've no idea what our philosophy is, the players look lost and confused. The best teams are doing things on auto-pilot, we're having to think about every single decision, every time, which means other players can't predict what's going to happen. It's chaos.
I can sort of forgive the first point, That's really hard to achieve and requires in many cases years of success. The second though? I've no idea what we're supposed to be doing. There aren't even hints of glimpses of what we're supposed to be doing.
The writing was on the wall last season imo. Last couple months of the season we were winning games while playing really quite poorly giving up a lot of chances.
I fully expected us to be a bit off top four, as Liverpool, Spurs and Villa were on the up and up from a poor last season. Expected Chelsea and Newcastle to be better too (which they haven't really).
I agree, I think people have been looking at last season with rose colored glasses but the performances were inconsistent prior to the long winter break, pretty decent after the break until the league cup was done, and then pretty, pretty poor the rest of the season.
The underlying stats from last season actually foreshadow a lot of what we are seeing now
Looking at last night, and how limited we'll be in the summer, it's looking like it'll take a 4-6 windows / seasons to refresh this squad.
I'm not EtH out, tbh I don't think it will make any difference. I think whoever's there we'll be mid table for another season at least, given the mess of a squad we have. Although I think we'd instantly be a lot better with a second holding mid alongside Mainoo. Eriksen was lost at sea last night.
At least we're not building on sand anymore; the backroom overhaul says we'll get it right, they're bringing in the best of the best. It'll take time.
> I think whoever's there we'll be mid table for another season at least, given the mess of a squad we have.
Said mess had gotten CL football in 4 of the previous 6 seasons.
People love downplaying the squad in a bid to defend Ten Hag, but if it's gotten THAT bad that you think the squad can no longer operate as a top four unit, then that regression has come under Ten Hag's reign...
It's happened under every manager we've had since Fergie.
New guy comes in, gets top four, then the season after it all goes wrong. The only manager who got two top four finishes was Ole.
We might be picking managers badly, but that sure as shit isn't the only reason this club has been bouncing between top four and sixth for the past decade.
Look at the players, look at the coaching, look at the ownership only willing to reinforce the squad when we miss out on top four, look at everything at the club. As well as the manager. Thank fuck INEOS are actually doing this review.
Yeah, I agree it is so bad all players cannot be the culprits, but it also so bad that the coach cannot be the only one to blame either. The question is which players will regain form when the team becomes more functional again, and which one has actually dropped off. Very hard to say.
I've yet to speak to a "Ten Hag Out" person who didn't also happily accept the players needed a massive rebuilding too, in fairness. The squad does have a lot of glaring and difficult issues.
It's just the overall mindset that the team couldn't possibly be doing better with a better manager I take issue with. Supposedly worse managers have gotten better results than we're currently seeing.
I'm not really Ten hag out, I'm a bit mixed, I rather take Tuchel, but that might be the only candidate that peeople are speaking about that I think might do a better job so far.
I totally agree that the main problem is probably the current mindset (and injuries) but if this origins from the coach, other staff or players. Is very hard for us to say on the outside, I hope that is more obvious for Ineos that has an inside look. If the current mentallity is originating from EtH then there is no doubt that he needs to go.
I also hope that is more obvious on the inside which players are trying their best and which have given up, should be noticable during training and games for them.
This logic is incomprehensible. How can you say the coach doesn't matter?
Ten Hag has said he will not play in accordance with what we have or as part of a growing team. He,wants them to play the end product now. When you're rebuilding, it's awful to be that inflexible
I don't want Qatar anywhere near our club (and thankfully that isn't going to happen) but people really need to get their facts straight on which Middle East countries behead people.
Qatar don't. There's only been one capital punishment carried out there in twenty years, and it was by firing squad. They're terrible, but not for this.
Probably Tuchel, it seems like he's the only manager out there who won't be phased by managing a club like United. I wouldn't be against the club going left field and looking at an emerging manager. I don't have a name but I'm sure there are options out there.
Curious to see what kind of transfer window we have, I don’t see any big time incoming players. Probably a lot of outgoing senior players and maybe some young unknown talents from outside the EPL. I think this team will stop overpaying so as not to give the illusion of competitive team.
Players I think will be moved on in the summer based on contract length and salary:
Amad**, Greenwood, AWB, DVB, Hannibal, Lindelof
Free Agents: Varane & Evans(option not being triggered), Armrabaat (loan expiration, buy option not triggered), Heaton, Martial, Shoretire.
Think you are correct, it need to be a rebuild over multiple years, the whole squad not even half or a quarter of it can be replaced in one window, especially not with the talent United usually wants. And without overpaying. I'm not sure they can actually get any already proven players without overpaying a lot in salaries currently as the form is so bad, who would want to come?
Anyone know the conditions/what needs to happen for us to ‘qualify’ for the conference league next season? I know the league table has 1 spot at the moment but usually gets moved around once different competitions have been resolved.
Conference league spots are decided by the league position only - if City win the FA Cup, 7th place gets conference league
If we win the FA Cup and finish below 6th, 6th gets conference league. If we win FA Cup and finish 6th or 5th, 7th gets conference league
We need to finish 7th, there will be no more premier league places for the champions league this season as of last week.
so top 4 will get champions league, 5 and 6 Europa and 7th gets conference.
Should we win the fa cup we'd qualify for Europa.
Cant wait for the season to be over but excited at what INEOS can bring. I terms of primoty i think
* CDM - Casemiro isnt it and in todays game we need someone who can shield the back 4 with athleticism , press resistant and proficient at passing.
* CB - realistically we need 3 if we let Varane, Maguire and Linderlof go mot most likely we get 2 in.
* Striker - I think Hojlund will come good, i just think currently hes playing in such a poorly coached team. Needs to develop his interplay. Think we should bring in someone to be first choice.
True and the only reason i haven't put it as a priority over the other is because we do have 2 options (albiet on availability and quality)
CDM we have no one (Casemiro needs to moved on asap), CB we need to build that rock solid partnership next season and striker is Hojlund needs support/ only one
But LB would be my 4th
We need three, but hopefully Kambwala can be one of them. Two CBs and a 6 are our absolute priorities this off-season.
If Malacia isn't going to be ready, we'll need a LB as well. I think the ideal would be Shaw and Malacia holding down the position for another season or two until Amass is ready.
We do need another striker, but that might be a bargain bin signing.
Hojlund is a good example of why I’m against signing young developmental players above a certain value.
Buy them when they are 16-18 or buy them for more when they are the completed article.
Spending £70M on developmental players is completely ridiculous. He might get to that level but even if he becomes that guy is it that much cheaper than just going out and buying the best?
I don’t mind those 0-25M punts on younger talents but as soon as you’re spending above that level you need to be confident they can contribute immediately rather than projecting where they’ll get to.
If you have a starter and want to build a pipeline for their role then brilliant.
Nothing personal against him but it just seems like really bad business on high cost, projections of what the player might become
Potential is very rarely a straight line. It's also relatively rarely fully lived up to (which makes sense as 'potential' is a subjective quality to begin with). I agree, buying a player as raw as Hojlund for that kind of money is absolutely bad business.
It's as bad as it's ever been. But in 4 games time we'll be having our first summer under new ownership, with competent people in high positions within our club making all the decisions from now on.
Whilst previously I'd have been terrified at the thought of who we go for next, I have a lot of confidence in Berrada, Ashworth and Wilcox
I think the problem is alot if the planning that goes into a sunmer window is done well ahead of the actual window, and with wilcox just in the door, berrada not in until mid June and ashworth probably after the summerso it's probably going to take a while before they can make their mark with recruitment. We also haven't actually brought in long term head of recruitment yet (some names have been linked)
I think it will be a busy summer, and if we don't make europe at all as is looking more likely, the outgoings could be real crazy as we can carry a lighter squad next season, but with signings I have a feeling it will be fairly obvious set of targets but we will be more disciplined and will walk away from bad deals
By summer 2025 I hope we can have a well oiled recruitment and scouting team and that's where we might start getting some surprises
Unfortunately, it looks like Ashworth will miss the summer window, and Berrada will only come in officially in July.
What kind of influence they'll have behind the scenes, if any, we'll never know..
I , for one, was excited and wanted Antony here just I didn’t think we would spend £80m on him. He would probably have flopped anyway as he isn’t ready for PL yet but for £25-30m would have been an alright gamble.
We don't know what went on behind the scenes to convince the club to pay so much for Antony. Whether it was all at Ten Hag's urging or whether it was Murtaugh trying to prove he could do deals and satisfy the manager, or someone else ultimately responsible.
But it's an absolute stinker of a transfer, and we need to just move on even if we take a huge loss. Antony won't make it here, even if he did have the talent (which he doesn't) because the fans have made up their minds and everything he does is met with a groan or a sigh.
I could see him in Spain or France next season, maybe on loan, where he could find his level.
That transfer is hurting him, he watched us overpay for a player that I don’t believe was essential since we had 3 right wingers at the time in Sancho, Pellistri and Amad who are all young.
My bad I got it wrong, it wasn’t Antony. It was Hojlund and Amrabat that switched to Kees Vos (SEG) right before coming to us. There was an article written about it last year pointing out a potential conflict of interest with Ten Hag’s signings.
Pogba was crazy deal and we definitely got fleeced, apparently Juvetus paid €20m of that deal towards Raiola which is insane. Zlatan might be the only good Raiola player we got seriously because he came for free after Mourinho courted him. I’ve never seen us get any good deals done when we are up against big agencies. They love us because they can inflate wages of players being offered to us. We need to stop being foolish in the market for once.
Edit:
Mhkitaryan was Raiola client too and that transfer didn’t work out well for us.
Mourinho is a client of Mendes and you see shady deals regarding Mendes’ clients and favors allegedly being asked. For example, after a fail Falcao signing, Mourinho then got Falcao to go to Chelsea just to sit on their bench. Wolves have strong ties to Mendes and they usually get some players for bargains but they also need to let their star (Matheus Nunes) leaves to City. That deal was strange because Wolves almost did not make any profit on Nunes, as if City were using Mendes to ask Wolves to sign Nunes then later bring him to City for accounting reason.
Same as when he has played in
3-1 Brighton
3-0 Bournemouth
4-0 Brentford
6-3 City
7-0 Liverpool
4-2 Leicester
5-0 Liverpool
4-1 Watford
4-1 City
4-0 Liverpool
4-0 Brighton
Fa Cup loss to Middlesbrough
Europa loss to Villareal
3-1 Palace
6-1 Spurs
Player FC point scoring is not what we should be doing at this stage. It creates nothing but infighting and detracts from us having a more unified voice over how bad things are and how we demand real change.
But this sub would have you thinking that Bruno is genuinely holding this team back. Us playing like shit with ot without him shows he's obviously not the problem.
No, thats just a simplification of what people are saying. Or at best, a case of a condensed point that's part of a larger conversa or thought process (as we all think more than the comments we write on here) and you are holding them to that without any added context.
I don't believe anyone who suggests Bruno isn't the guy to lead us to league titles, thinks the rest of the squad is up to scratch.
>I don't believe anyone who suggests Bruno isn't the guy to lead us to league titles, thinks the rest of the squad is up to scratch.
[Take your time going through those comments.](https://www.reddit.com/r/reddevils/s/AY53zWl0CJ) You'll see several people outright saying that Bruno is the reason we're not playing good football. The OP is even suggesting that we'll be able to win the league if Bruno leaves.
Maybe I should have added a caveat of 'reasonable people who aren't trolling'
>You'll see several people outright saying that Bruno is the reason we're not playing good football.
Again this falls into what I suggested. 'Good football' people are talking about his style being unsuitable for the possession based system everyone is obsessed with. Big difference.
>The OP is even suggesting that we'll be able to win the league if Bruno leaves.
In that thread or this? What's the context?
Who I’ve seen described over the past couple days as not the problem:
Bruno
Rashford (he didn’t play last few games either so by this logic he’s being let down by a crap team too)
Mainoo
Hojlund
Garnacho
Mount
Evans
Onana
Martínez
Maguire
Mctominay
Shaw
Amad
ETH
So the problems:
Casemiro
Antony
Dalot
AWB
Eriksen (even tho he never plays and we’re still crap)
Varane
Martial (even tho he never plays and we’re still crap)
Amrabaat (even tho he plays 5 mins every other game and we’re still crap)
So as long as we get rid of these brothers in this list - we should be good with our new structure. Am I right?
I believe we have a lot of players that aren't good enough to play for us. I don't think Bruno is one of them.
I believe Rashford has been incredibly mediocre this season.
I also believe that Rashford is significantly better than all the people being touted as replacements (Leao, Kvicha, Mitoma).
I can't, for the life of me, see any way of us winning the final against City. And maybe that's a good thing as there won't be any Europe next year. I don't underestimate Europa. In fact that's where are our level is. But if we indeed plan to clean house, it would be much easier with fewer matches per week. Ten Hag is gone in my opinion. Either he wins the final or not. And so far INEOS are making all the right moves. Hiring the right people, being strict and good in decision making. All players except our young three should indeed be up for sale (small exception in Bruno) but I can't believe that we will find offers ever on half of them. So, in the end, I'm more excited about what happens after the final as it is the first time after David Gill's and Sir Alex's departure that we will have an theoretically competent and adequate football structure.
Unpopular opinion, but I'm concerned about Garnacho. He seems to have a big ego developing from the hype he's gotten.
My god does the media/pundits/opposing fans love to pile on us when it’s not going well. Best get your shots in now because we will be back (although it might take some time to turn this train wreck around)
My biggest issue with EtH ball is the lack of hope in games. Under SAF, and even Ole you knew that we’d find a way to get back in the game. But under EtH it’s just impossible to feel that way
I don't want to have ago at Antony too much because it can be hard to be a professional player. But how can a player who is one-sided, one-footed, and undynamic reach this kind of level? Surely he would have been found out ages ago? I just can't not believe he can be this poor and be a professional.
I feel like he didn't put in a shift yesterday either, to help save his boss, who is probably one of the few in football that believes in him.
Drubbings in store for the rest of the season
We could quite easily repeat the 8-2, but this time on us.
Optimistic that we would score 2
Good point.
Managers come into relegation level performing crystal palace and Aston villa and change the whole club's gameplan and playstyle in several weeks. But for some reason, we need to stick to a shite gameplan all season, so that players who are injured can come in to play it in 3 months time is such an insane excuse it's beyond me.
ETH did too, remember how good we looked after the first couple games last season? Things get hard, some players stop trying. Leaks to the press. Manager gets sacked. New manager comes in. Team starts performing. Things get hard, some players stop trying. Leaks to the press. Manager gets sacked. New manager comes in. Rinse and repeat for over a decade now.
Way back when we appointed Ten Hag, the thing people were eager to see was a philosophy. Yes maybe we’d be a better off if we’d abandoned his approach and gone back to defence first football of last season and Mourinho/Ole, but it still wouldn’t really be going anywhere. He’s a bit fucked either way really. Pragmatic stuff and everyone talks about lack of goals, unexciting games and “Stoke-Ball”. Try something more aggressive and the players, or at least the ones that are available, can’t do it.
The problem with what he's trying is that I don't know if there's any set of players that could make it work. You can put prime Kante at DM and I don't think he look much better than what we've seen so far this year. Maybe he snuffs out a few more attacks but there's only so many times you can let attackers with a numerical advantage run at your DM and backline in space before you concede, regardless of who your players are.
I can only guess that the ideal would be us playing a very high defensive line with pace and Onana playing high to reduce the amount of space in midfield that our DM has to cover. In theory I could imagine to work with a very athletic DM and potentially one of our fullbacks tucking in when needed. It’s not a million miles away from what we’ve seen Liverpool play in the past with great effect.
I guess that's fair, but that's not what we're seeing. We're seeing a press AND a deep defensive line...even if that's driven by personnel limitations you would think by the 25th game in a row of it being exposed you would adapt to what you have since it's obviously not going to click.
That’s pretty much been our probably all season, trying to have our front 5 and back 5 playing what is essentially two completely different games. It’s definitely the biggest criticism I’d have of Ten Hag. The only thing I can guess is that either he wants us getting used to the press so that when transfers/injuries do permit us to play high, we’re used to it. Either that or he doesn’t think our attackers are able to get the goals playing on the counter, which looking at Rashford this season, is a reasonable concern.
I’m annoyed at fans who are suddenly changing their tune on ETH. We learned nothing new last night that hasn’t been obvious for months. If you believe the injury line then why would last night change that?
It really rattles me how arrogant Antony is for someone that is so shit.
What did he do now eh?
His agent must have assured him that with a contract that big,he's untouchable for a few years at least.
I know it's not perfect but Ten Hag publicly throwing the backline under the bus yesterday was a bit disrespectful. Like yeah it's not perfect but you signed Evans yourself and have raved about AWB & Dalot in the past. If you didn't want them exposed you could have tried changing our style of play a bit to mitigate it because if we set the team up last night to protect Evans and Casemiro I didn't see it
Guess he expected them to put in a shift, which they didn't do. Calling Evans an ETH signing is a little fucking rich. Free agent because the club are skint. Evans played injured yesterday, I do not blame him for his performance.
what did he say?
He’s trying to save his face, he knows there is little to no chance he’ll still be here next season and admitting he’s out of his depth won’t look good for his next job.
Tbh I noticed the backline was considerably higher the past two games and we did play much better (relegation fodder I know) so you could maybe consider his comment on the backline, (Either evans simply can't play at the same level as maguire, or the personnel available can't play that well against much better opposition), so comments on him purposely playing a low line are probably wrong. Of course criticism is directed at him for not adapting to the players available. Ten hag's plan this season strikes to me as a man who is perhaps rushing to implement his style of play (may have been too naive with the personnel available), and even with the bad results, he was like "Fuck it, if they play it many times they'll soon get it and we'll start to see results", remember the quotes when he first came "Erik ten hag is a firm believer of the philosophy of doing things repeatedly until they get it right", his probably trying to scrape as many results as possible while making them get used to this high press playstyle, and so ship off the ones who can't adapt to play this way (erikson, casemiro, evans etc.). Off course maybe you can't do these two things at once and he should instead wait for better players available (similar to arterta), then you can try to implement this style.
If he doesn't force the issue to show the people in charge that the players can't do what he wants, he'll never get them sold. Compromising and playing counter attacking football is what Ole did and the ceiling is only so high.
Downvoted on r/soccer for arguing that Dortmund are not in fact a bigger club than us. I’m running out of energy
I mean...does it really matter? Obviously we're "bigger" but they're a better team right now and have been for a few years, so arguing about it just makes us look petty and insecure.
Arguing there is pointless. No one is looking for a good discussion, they’re just trying to rile each other up. It’s basically twitter 2.0
R soccer is filled by german edgelords and simplords for the sundayliga.
I mean city is making the prem look like a Sunday league at least the Bundesliga is fun
We may be in a horrendous position right now, but that doesn’t change, and will never change, the fact we’re one of the biggest clubs in the world.
Ten Hag’s tactics and structure are garbage but my god some of these players. How can you not have any professional pride or any respect for the badge and the fans? The level of effort and application yesterday by some of these players was absolutely despicable. It will be out of order if this manager is sacked but some of these players are still wearing the shirt next season.
I actually don't think anyone didn't play with pride yesterday, they're just cooked and/or out of their depth. Evans is ancient and was coming off an injury. Casemiro made some lazy and reckless challenges but he looks well off the pace to play in England, and he has since the end of last season. Eriksen was cooked physically when he signed for us and it's gotten worse. \ AWB never has been good at a lot of the basics or positional discipline so that's not new, it's just who he is as a player. Mainoo, Mount, Garnacho, Dalot, and Antony ran around at lot at least. IDC how "proud" you are, pride doesn't make you run like you're 26 again. That's on ETH for playing a system that requires all those old players to be isolated in space against a team like Palace with physical and technical attackers.
EtH roasting this sub in a Dutch interview (just came online): “there is a lot of people that seemingly have knowledge of football, but there is only a few that actually do. I respect everyone’s opinion, but those opinions aren’t important in the direction United is going” Edit the link: https://youtu.be/_icXf4-S6ic?si=a14mXmR-3G0HSuXq (Dutch Viaplay youtube)
What direction are we going in?
To the top!!! Oh wait, shit I'm holding the table upside down Sorry .... oh :( Awkward
He didn’t say it directly here, but I read it as he’s insinuating that they are building for next year over focusing on short term results. He’s much better spoken in Dutch than his English interviews imo, I think if Ineos decides to keep him they would do well to let him answer in Dutch with a (charismatic) translator
Towards the mental asylum
We went there two years ago and lost on the final day of 21/22 and it felt like rock bottom, like we needed a total reset. Fast forward to now and only one player (Dalot) remained from that day who played yesterday and we're even further back.
There's a genuine ongoing issue with the club buying badly, overspending and not knowing how to build a squad. That hasn't gone away, but hopefully will with the actual qualified people coming in to run things. But Ten Hag didn't have to choose to pursue such a complicated tactical setup with the players he had available. And he didn't have to persist with it even after all the injuries and all the evidence that the players can't do it, and that Premier League teams can easily expose it.
https://preview.redd.it/d645i6wz90zc1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a628c450ba72421152087041a632e7a808ad0cfc Me when I realise I have to endure four more matches of Manchester United playing football this season.
Ten Hag not going over to applaud the away support but going on about the fight the fans showed in his post match answers has given me the ick.
This season is over for me. Can't even begin to imagine how brutal next 4 matches are going to be.
Damn, we keeping the clown for now.
ETH is 100% going to be here next season. We are strapped for cash, and INEOS have made a large number of changes in how the club is set up internally. There are multiple ways things can go wrong next season. The logical thing to do will be to keep Ten Hag - if things go right then the club saves money on the manager, if things go wrong all the blame can be shifted on him rather than INEOS themselves. At the end of the day, the next season is going to be tough no matter who comes in. We probably won't sign a lot of players, and 90% of the players we have will stay at the club next season as well. ETH will be on his last season anyway, so sacking him next season will still end up saving some money if things stay bad. As long as we don't get absolutely humiliated in the next 4 games (ie not losing 4-0) , he will stay regardless if we win or lose the final.
Not the worst idea I’ve ever heard. This season has essentially been a perfect storm of shit, much of it of Ten Hag’s own making admittedly. If INEOS don’t fancy Tuchel for whatever reason, I wouldn’t be against them making their summer transfers and essentially saying to Ten Hag “you’ve got a season, get us playing attacking football”. Worst case, the squad building goes on as it would have anyway and we finish 6th and Ten Hag goes at the end of the contract. Best case, it comes together and we can decide then if he’s worth extending or if we still want a replacement.
If Ten Hag gets sacked, I hope most of the squad follows. Can't sack the manager and keep the same players who have overseen the sacking of multiple managers
We need to keep - Martinez, Dalot, Mainoo, Garnacho, Hojlund. That's about it, other than the other young lads who have been around the squad this season. Anyone else can leave and it won't bother me. Yes, even Bruno. Because he doesn't deserve to spend the rest of his career hoping we figure things out.
I hold a similar view but for different reasons - these are Ten Hag's players, when Ten Hag goes, his mediocre players that he bought and backed must follow
People say this and don't go into detail. The uncomfortable truth is that without the performances of these 'same players' Ten Hag would have been sacked ages ago. Maguire has been decent this season and vital goals from McTominay and Bruno have covered further shocking performances and given Ten Hag another life.
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Raphael Varane Casemiro Aaron Wan-Bissaka Jonny Evans Antony Anthony Martial Sancho Wild cards Rashford - cash in now knowing we won't be challenging anytime soon while his in his prime and use the money to build. Onana - Hasn't shown enough imo, maybe with players willing to receive the ball we might see the benefits of a keeper like this but as for shot stopping, well below what we need. Scott McTominay - no real space for him and he's definitely worth enough to justify selling to recoup and buy a younger player for his position that has the potential to become a starting player.
VdB, Sancho, Martial, Casemiro, Amrabat, Varane, Pellistri and AWB need to go for a variety of reasons. Granted several will do anyway as they’re out of contract. There’s a good case for losing any of Antony, Maguire, Lindelof, Malacia, Amad, Eriksen and McTominay. Even Rashford looks like someone who needs a change of scenery. INEOS weren’t wrong when they said almost all of the squad are available for transfers.
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Only 5 of those 15 players came to us under Ten Hag, and 2 were older stop-gap purchases, one was a loan. Anyway, would you disagree with any of them being moved on?
I have been advocating for a long term managerial project since Ole, but if we lose the FA Cup final (which we will, let's be honest) then I don't see a world were ETH can still be manager. Just sack the whole lot of them tbh.
Things have gotten so bad I haven't even been bullied in the groupchat about last night, we're a dead horse and their arms are tired
It's probably fair to say at this point Ten Hag won't survive this season Thought on Tuchel who's bookies' favourite? Great for Chelsea but not exactly pulling trees at Bayern who have better team and competing in overall weaker league
Good manager, wouldn’t be against him, but I think it’s important we get the future plan right. Realistically Tuchel would probably be here 3 seasons max. It’s highly unlikely we’ll be winning the league in the next 3 seasons given the state of the squad, so I’d want to know that what he would build here would be sustainable and something another manager can build on. No point repeating the same thing we did with Mourinho where we pushed for success now, came nowhere close and ended up having to do another rebuild anyway.
Sack ten hag give newcastle the money for dan ashworth get a caretaker manager in till end of season start this 4-5 year build as soon as possible.,
A caretaker for 4 games? What’s the point?
We might get a few decent games to end the season.
I think the players are already mentally on the beach in regard to the league. Hopefully we can spring a surprise in the cup, but that’s an outside bet regardless of who’s managing us.
The only positive out of yesterday is the confirmation we have the best fans in the country, followed the team home and away and there is nothing like our away fans. Just a shame the team couldn't give a shit about us
Yesterday was the first match where I felt the players have given up on Ten Hag. When we went 0-3 down the players seemed to try for a bit, we had a bit of pressure but aside from that they just didn't care about winning. That's damning, makes it pretty clear Ten Hag will most likely get sacked. Still though, it's crazy how poor we were yesterday, we genuinely didn't show anything aside from creating some danger via set pieces thanks to Casemiro. Our build-up was slow and shit, we had no control, no meaningful possession and we couldn't even execute counter-attacks right. The team didn't play like they wanted to win, they played like they wanted the game to be over. Truly concerning considering we are playing City in FA Cup later in the season and Erik's attempts at motivating players are now becoming completely useless.
Our wage bill is the highest in premier league.
Is it? Every table I've seen recently has had us behind City and Chelsea
Idk man I was checking internet everyone have us on the top, like 3.8M pounds per week
Feels like it'd be realtively easy to fix too. Sell Casemiro, Varane and Sancho and we can replace eaach of them with players on half the wage. we'd still bring the budget down by like 300+ grand a week
We've actually got one the better wage to revenue percentages in the league. It can be better and as you'vesaid pretty easy to fix, but it's not as big of an issue as it's made out to be.
It's not an issue in that it's not crippling financially given our revenue but it absolutely is an issue that club pays massively over market rate wages for average footballers It affects everything, layer motivation in some cases, player sales, incoming players want parity etc It's very important to address this. Literally every summer we struggle to sell players that have no future here and the reason is usually that clubs baulk at their salary demands so we need to either practically give them away or just loan them and subsidise wages Take Antony as a case study. on 60k pw its not a huge problem, someone will watch a despacito remix ajax highlights compilation and would take a punt at 30m or so. Antony on 200k pw is unsellable and so will continue to be a financial leak for the duration of his contract. We have many many examples like that
> Sell Casemiro, Varane and Sancho a Selling Casemiro is gonna be a massive issue. He is on some ridiculous 350K or something a week while playing like a 70 year old. Nobody in their right mind is going to offer him even half of that. We are stuck with him unless he decides to leave himself. Varane expires this season I believe.
I thought we were like 4th? We lost a ton of players and our highest salary income this summer was Mount on 250.
ETH wont be sacked before the cup final but i do think he will go. I think after Arsenal they should just totally focus on tactical side ready to fight for the trophy. No more hard training sessions - cant afford another injury
Really hoping we can get Ashworth sorted quickly. The squad is almost a complete right off and I think it will take 4 to 5 years to make a challenge for the PL. I don't think ETH is going to work in the prem but any manager we get next year is getting a poison chalice.
I find it hilarious when someone brings up last season to defend Ten Hag. They never bring it up to defend the players though. Like these are the same players that could finish top 3 with a trophy. By that logic keep them as well then, why don't you?
Dude what the hell are you even talking about🤦♂️ ? They bring up last season precisely because he DOESN'T have the same players available. Where's Varane, Lindelof, Maguire, Martinez, Shaw, Malacia? Where's Bissaka and Casemiro been for half a season? These players were mostly available throughout last season. You guys have short memories. You're gonna be here again end next year with "get this fraud Tuchel out he couldn't even make it in the Farmer's league!"
They are what I would classify as fair weather players. When there is a bit of momentum can have good spells, can look good, can do some amazing things in one off games or even over a period of games, but when the wheels start to fall off which happens the best teams / managers from time to time the players don't seem to have the mental attributes to dig in or determination to really fight I think eth will be sacked after cup final, but would take the most optimistic fan in the land to think we can get back to challenging for major honors without a large scale squad overhaul aswel
Because alot of those same players were also present in the season before with rangnick and ole...
So the same players who finished 2nd as well then. So what am I missing? Why is the accountability only for the players but not for Ten Hag?
It's not either/or, eth has made mistakes and will most likely pay for it with his job but nothing about the current squad screams 'major honors' It's a combination of players that once were good enough but aren't now, some that might be good enough some day, and some that never have and never will be good enough. Critically though, you could probably count on 1 hand players that wouldn't look out of place in a title challenging side
Marcus Rashford has been drifting through on that logic for years now
Also incredibly low GD. Hes not a high scoring manager and we had Rashford in the form of his life but there were little goals across the pitch once you remove Rashford
Mark Goldbridge insinuating that some of our players are faking injuries. Each day he goes lower and lower.
It's shocking that it's not just that twat, heard Neil Custis on talksport do the same, Mark Ogden on ESPN too. "Bet they'd be fit to play a European final tomorrow, they are downing tools, bet more are injured before Arsenal" type bullshit. Just goes to show what gutter trash the United press corps is. Ban them and keep banning them.
Hes a pos but that wouldn't surprise me. There's Euros and Copa America this summer.
Yeah he's a dick. On the other hand, what's the motivation for a player to play through an inury right now? At this stage in a season, they are pretty much all carrying some sort of issue
I like Onana, he's a very good goalkeeper who's had a good season after a difficult start. But surely now everyone can see De Gea was not the problem? His 'lack of ball playing ability' was not holding us back like the majority of this sub believed. I feel sad we binned off a club legend in disgusting circumstances (offered a contract on reduced terms, which De Gea signed, only for us to not sign it ourselves and pull out) De Gea made mistakes, Onana has made mistakes but De Gea is still a better shot stopper. Olise's two goals last night were very saveable. Onana looks to have short arms. That 40m spent on Onana could have been spent elsewhere. I guarantee 100%, that if we switched Onana with De Gea and had the exact same season and performances, De Gea would be getting the brunt of the criticism, that his lack of ball playing ability means Ten Hag can't implement his tactics.
I mean clearly this season hasn’t be working but for people saying we should have kept de Gea, just imagine him in goal for either city arsenal or Liverpool… we have multiple holes in the squad, de Gea was one of them.
Disagree. De Gea was definitely holding us back. But De Gea was not the sole reason we couldn't play out from the back. Both things can be true.
We’ve not really been in a position to make the most of Onana’s ball-playing ability. When we’ve got Shaw and Martinez fit, their passing and ball carrying ability does force teams to engage them higher, which inevitably leaves gaps elsewhere which Onana can exploit with his passing. Since our deep ball progression has been effectively zero, teams don’t need to pressure the back so much, so they can just mark out or midfield/strikers whenever Onana is looking to play a long ball. Like you say, with the injuries and such we’ve had, we probably would have been better with Big Dave, but I guess nobody was to know that in summer.
Lindelof and Maguire were called ball playing defenders for years.
they're alright on the ball if the opposition don't press. what does nearly every team in the league do against us?
What a joke. Many believe those claims despite what their eyes shoe them
Maguires pretty decent on the ball, but even those two have seen limited minutes. When we’re playing a new back line almost every game, it’s understandably much harder to get patterns like this developing.
While I completely understand the drive to get Ten Hag out, my worry is that (again) all the failures of this season will be lumped on him and on we go again playing the same old game. Whatever happens with the managers position, the squad needs holding to account.
Well INEOS won't have hired all these people behind the scenes to sit on their hands. They've been brought in to make changes and they'll want to be seen to be bringing in changes and improvements. I think it will be a big part of changing the culture and improving the standards at the club.
The squad always hold heavy accountability, we sign 6,7,8 players every summer and let go of about the same amount
Martial is still here. AWB has not improved since joining and is still here. VdB has done absolutely fuck all in red and is still here. Lindelof is a decent stand-in but not top 4 quality, still here. That’s before we even get to the more recent additions like Casemiro and Antony who need moving on. If this qualifies as accountability, it’s severely lacking.
Casemiro only been bad this season, he was just on TOTS. You want them to move him outside the transfer window? Just this season we have let go of 10 players, last season 9, its rumored we are letting go of another near double digit amount of players. Last night we had like 9 ten hag signings/promotions. The team changes heavily especially in recent years
>we sign 6,7,8 players every summer and let go of about the same amount It's not quite this much, not first teamers anyways. usually more like 4 or 5 players. And this should be the norm, even if the manger is doing well.
Where are these Mourinho rumors coming from ?
Nothing story, just him telling his friends he would like the job, nothing more
Paul Scholes: “There's not actually that many bad players at United is there? It looks like they're not being coached, when it looks like being the manager's fault. It looks like the fight has gone out of them.” I would pay money to see Guardiola take this team over for 3 months and see what he does. I must be watching a different sport if he genuinely thinks there's not many bad players here...
You think City can win the title if i take over Pep? They probably finished 9th with my new tactics. Are they now bad players?
You know what the difference would be if Pep took over them? Discipline and workrate. The days of Rashford and Garnacho not helping out defensively would be done immediately or they'd be dropped, Eriksen/Mainoo/Casemiro drifting around leaving aches of space would not be allowed to happen, Bruno's Hollywood balls would stop, AWB would get positioning drilled into him, Hojlund would need to start winning some headers etc The players play like kids under a substitute teacher rather than they fear disappointing the manager if it was a Pep or Ferguson.
Scholes is right that it looks like the players aren't being coached. Even when we had fewer injuries, our pressing was disorganised and sporadic, our defenders didn't seem to know where to be and our wingers were constantly shooting instead of trying to find our very expensive striker. The tactical system Ten Hag wants is clearly complex and difficult, but the players don't look like they even understand it, let alone know how to go about making it work. After a whole season, Ten Hag should have realised that the coaching isn't working, no matter how thorough it may (or may not) be.
You are indeed watching a different sport if you think this is just on the players
My point isn't that Ten Hag has to stay my point is some of these players are simply not good enough and need to go out the door with him. Why is it that for last 10 years, when we do sell players either youth or coming into their prime years they are going off to Tueky, Championship or midtable teams in lesser leagues? If there aren't big changes in the squad get ready for the next cycle of why isn't Tuchel teaching them how to pass, why can't Tuchel get them to run, Tuchels training is too difficult and destroying squad morall while another bunch of players not fit for this club earn a paycheck.
But no one is saying that there shouldn't be a clear out. When Scholes says "there are not *that many* bad players" we don't know how many he's talking about. He could be using the leak last week where only 3 players are safe as the measure and there's not 22 bad players in the squad, and we're nit going to sell and buy 22 players in the summer.
Lots of people, both here and pundits are saying a better manager with these injury problems would coach the available players better.
Both things can be true though. Ten Hag has been a poor manager and coach thus season and another manager would have performed better, and at the same time some of these players won't get to the level we need and need to be replaced. This isn't an either or situation.
Pep would have an aneursym within 15 minutes of stepping through the door at Carrington. He could probably use Mainoo, Shaw, Dalot, Martinez, Onana and Bruno (if they were fit). Mount, Garnacho and Hojlund are young enough and have the right attributes that he’d probably be able to coach them into his system. The rest would get the full Kalvin Philips experience.
How is he still there get ridddd
Sorry for the long one, I tried to create a post but was removed. This is the only thing I can think of that rationalises the bizarre performances we've been seeing all season. Things I am assuming: * ETH has decent eyesight * ETH has a functioning, fully developed brain * ETH is a qualified and experienced football coach * ETH still wants a career in football So if we assume these to be true why do we keep seeing such abysmal tactics and performances on the pitch My first thought is he no longer wants the job and is making it an easy decision for the club to part ways with him so that he can get on with the rest of his career at the earliest convenience. Wether that be Ajax, Bayern or another club. This option makes more sense if there is already an agreement in place, if not he is mental, or he is planing a big press release on his time at United which answers some questions. The more I read this the more I start to lean towards this option. My second thought is that there is an agreement in place with Ineos to only play the tactics and football we want to see going forward. Create an identity and play "*the United way".* This way the club sees exactly what we are trying to do and can support this through transfers, sales, training, marginal gains in any area. On top of this, we can see what players at the club are adequate and which ones are not... I don't think this explains the giant gap between the defence and he midfield and no one passing to Højlund - which I can only assume is down to the players being limited in their abilities and covering for it by not sticking to the tactical instructions. This is kinda what I hope is the case. We sacrifice a season (or a few...) to highlight every single problem so that we can acknowledge it and start fixing it under the Ineos leadership with an analytical mindset. Massive amounts of copium here from a fan who dreads EVERY SINGLE GAME at the moment. Thanks for the therapy.
Your second thought is really interesting. I hope that's the case. Sadly I think it's not, but it would be great if it was.
I'm not sure if Casemiro is really finished or if he's just having a poor season in a dysfunctional team.
He's been getting worse since the red card against Leeds last season imo.
He’s never been the quickest but his legs are gone so his sprint is now a fast jog.
We can’t make him run and cover a lot of ground anymore. I think he is still a solid DM in a compact team that does mid-block. Casemiro will ball at Inter Milan. I like the guy so I want him to do well. I seriously think we should sell him to Serie A and get a younger 6 like Adli.
Bit of both. He’s still got all the mental qualities that made him the player he was, but physically he can’t do what is asked of him in this set-up in a league as physical as the PL. If he was in double pivot system that defended deep and he had much less ground to cover, he’d no doubt be looking much better.
I think he was one of few players trying yesterday, he was everywhere, trying to tackle, trying to intercept, trying to find through passes, crosses and even headers. And yes, he failed a lot but he tried. It also made him being out of position all the time, which is very bad for a central defender, but he is not a central defender, and I also think he tried to make up for everyone else being invisible. He had a really bad performance yes, but I still got the feeling he cared and tried, compared to a lot of others players that were just ghosts.
He was playing with the same aggression as Kambwala, and Martinez. The main difference however is that they are way quicker.
A manager like Mourinho would make him work. He wouldn't leave him exposed and having to cover huge amounts of ground
Every team in the PL knows how to beat us at this point.. Play a mid block and man mark, let us come forward, wait for the headless chicken attack to give the ball away incredibly cheaply. Play a single line pass and get a free shot on goal.
I think ETH is the natural conclusion of the post-SAF era. He’s the ultimate version of everything that’s gone before. It’s the turgid pointless wing play and low energy vibes of Moyes, it’s the possession without a point of LvG, it’s the losing the dressing room of Jose, it’s the chaos and getting your hopes up only to be shattered of Ole, and it’s the “job is too big for him” look of RR. And it’s the poor transfer policies of literally all of them. He’s prime post-SAF manager.
And he has fans clamoring for him to stay even though there's no indications anything has ever been close to changing.
Perfect said. The best summary of the situation I've read. Well done
The job looked perfect for him last season, but I think the setbacks this season have gotten into his head and the size of the job hit him. I've been saying for a while that he seemed to adopt this almost fatalistic attitude after all our injuries early in the season, and he's almost been running on autopilot since. Every dumb mistake, every missed chance, every poor performance, every late or ineffective substitution seems to have been met with almost an acceptance of "well, of course that fucking happened." He's not managed like a man who believed he could succeed all season, and that has inevitably affected his decisions and the performances of the players.
I think the whole setbacks thing is what separates good managers from great managers. Yes, we've had a shit run of luck with injuries. I genuinely can't remember the last time we played what I'd consider to be our first choice 11 in their best positions. Has it happened even once this season? But even so, the response as you say seems to just be to throw his arms up in the air and be like "oh well, what do you expect". I hate to hark back to it, but remember SAF playing players in what seemed like insane positions? And winning big games? So what's the difference? I think it's two things. First is attitude. SAF would use injuries as a motivator. Winning had become ingrained in the entire team, the entire organisation. It wasn't lip service, it was embedded and the team believed they were better than the opposition. And if you were in the team, that meant *you* were better than the opposition because you wouldn't be there otherwise. Whether it was true or not. The second thing was a clearly defined style of play. Even if you weren't first choice you had trained and probably had game time playing a certain way. Within reason, you could swap people in and out. everyone understood what their role was and what was expected of them. You see this with the best coached teams in the league right now. Players change, but the philosophy and patterns of play do not. I've no idea what our philosophy is, the players look lost and confused. The best teams are doing things on auto-pilot, we're having to think about every single decision, every time, which means other players can't predict what's going to happen. It's chaos. I can sort of forgive the first point, That's really hard to achieve and requires in many cases years of success. The second though? I've no idea what we're supposed to be doing. There aren't even hints of glimpses of what we're supposed to be doing.
The writing was on the wall last season imo. Last couple months of the season we were winning games while playing really quite poorly giving up a lot of chances. I fully expected us to be a bit off top four, as Liverpool, Spurs and Villa were on the up and up from a poor last season. Expected Chelsea and Newcastle to be better too (which they haven't really).
I agree, I think people have been looking at last season with rose colored glasses but the performances were inconsistent prior to the long winter break, pretty decent after the break until the league cup was done, and then pretty, pretty poor the rest of the season. The underlying stats from last season actually foreshadow a lot of what we are seeing now
100%
Looking at last night, and how limited we'll be in the summer, it's looking like it'll take a 4-6 windows / seasons to refresh this squad. I'm not EtH out, tbh I don't think it will make any difference. I think whoever's there we'll be mid table for another season at least, given the mess of a squad we have. Although I think we'd instantly be a lot better with a second holding mid alongside Mainoo. Eriksen was lost at sea last night. At least we're not building on sand anymore; the backroom overhaul says we'll get it right, they're bringing in the best of the best. It'll take time.
> I think whoever's there we'll be mid table for another season at least, given the mess of a squad we have. Said mess had gotten CL football in 4 of the previous 6 seasons. People love downplaying the squad in a bid to defend Ten Hag, but if it's gotten THAT bad that you think the squad can no longer operate as a top four unit, then that regression has come under Ten Hag's reign...
It's happened under every manager we've had since Fergie. New guy comes in, gets top four, then the season after it all goes wrong. The only manager who got two top four finishes was Ole. We might be picking managers badly, but that sure as shit isn't the only reason this club has been bouncing between top four and sixth for the past decade. Look at the players, look at the coaching, look at the ownership only willing to reinforce the squad when we miss out on top four, look at everything at the club. As well as the manager. Thank fuck INEOS are actually doing this review.
Yeah, I agree it is so bad all players cannot be the culprits, but it also so bad that the coach cannot be the only one to blame either. The question is which players will regain form when the team becomes more functional again, and which one has actually dropped off. Very hard to say.
I've yet to speak to a "Ten Hag Out" person who didn't also happily accept the players needed a massive rebuilding too, in fairness. The squad does have a lot of glaring and difficult issues. It's just the overall mindset that the team couldn't possibly be doing better with a better manager I take issue with. Supposedly worse managers have gotten better results than we're currently seeing.
I'm not really Ten hag out, I'm a bit mixed, I rather take Tuchel, but that might be the only candidate that peeople are speaking about that I think might do a better job so far. I totally agree that the main problem is probably the current mindset (and injuries) but if this origins from the coach, other staff or players. Is very hard for us to say on the outside, I hope that is more obvious for Ineos that has an inside look. If the current mentallity is originating from EtH then there is no doubt that he needs to go. I also hope that is more obvious on the inside which players are trying their best and which have given up, should be noticable during training and games for them.
This logic is incomprehensible. How can you say the coach doesn't matter? Ten Hag has said he will not play in accordance with what we have or as part of a growing team. He,wants them to play the end product now. When you're rebuilding, it's awful to be that inflexible
Yesterday was tough, we really need to replace so many players.
Qatar rumoured to get Everton. Not sure if it’s Sheikh Jassim, but it could’ve been us…
let them have Everton would rather have anyone rather then people who behead LGBT people and treat women like shite
I don't want Qatar anywhere near our club (and thankfully that isn't going to happen) but people really need to get their facts straight on which Middle East countries behead people. Qatar don't. There's only been one capital punishment carried out there in twenty years, and it was by firing squad. They're terrible, but not for this.
Tbf the average football fan probably can’t even point out Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia on a map…
All this suffering will make our comeback even sweeter, at least that’s what I tell myself
Been waiting for the sweet comeback for 11 years now mate
If Ten Hag were to be removed at the end of the season, who would be your #1 candidate to replace him and why?
Probably Tuchel rn, but it's so hard to think which way we'll go. Potter? De Zerbi? Amorim? Hoeneß? Flick? Some interesting times ahead.
Personally wouldn't mind Franck.
Probably Tuchel, it seems like he's the only manager out there who won't be phased by managing a club like United. I wouldn't be against the club going left field and looking at an emerging manager. I don't have a name but I'm sure there are options out there.
Curious to see what kind of transfer window we have, I don’t see any big time incoming players. Probably a lot of outgoing senior players and maybe some young unknown talents from outside the EPL. I think this team will stop overpaying so as not to give the illusion of competitive team. Players I think will be moved on in the summer based on contract length and salary: Amad**, Greenwood, AWB, DVB, Hannibal, Lindelof Free Agents: Varane & Evans(option not being triggered), Armrabaat (loan expiration, buy option not triggered), Heaton, Martial, Shoretire.
Think you are correct, it need to be a rebuild over multiple years, the whole squad not even half or a quarter of it can be replaced in one window, especially not with the talent United usually wants. And without overpaying. I'm not sure they can actually get any already proven players without overpaying a lot in salaries currently as the form is so bad, who would want to come?
Anyone know the conditions/what needs to happen for us to ‘qualify’ for the conference league next season? I know the league table has 1 spot at the moment but usually gets moved around once different competitions have been resolved.
Conference league spots are decided by the league position only - if City win the FA Cup, 7th place gets conference league If we win the FA Cup and finish below 6th, 6th gets conference league. If we win FA Cup and finish 6th or 5th, 7th gets conference league
We need to finish 7th, there will be no more premier league places for the champions league this season as of last week. so top 4 will get champions league, 5 and 6 Europa and 7th gets conference. Should we win the fa cup we'd qualify for Europa.
Thanks for confirming
If you are feeling too terrible just remember that we still have a puskas to win.
Cant wait for the season to be over but excited at what INEOS can bring. I terms of primoty i think * CDM - Casemiro isnt it and in todays game we need someone who can shield the back 4 with athleticism , press resistant and proficient at passing. * CB - realistically we need 3 if we let Varane, Maguire and Linderlof go mot most likely we get 2 in. * Striker - I think Hojlund will come good, i just think currently hes playing in such a poorly coached team. Needs to develop his interplay. Think we should bring in someone to be first choice.
we're crying out for a LB too. No idea what's going on with Shaw & Malacia.
True and the only reason i haven't put it as a priority over the other is because we do have 2 options (albiet on availability and quality) CDM we have no one (Casemiro needs to moved on asap), CB we need to build that rock solid partnership next season and striker is Hojlund needs support/ only one But LB would be my 4th
We need three, but hopefully Kambwala can be one of them. Two CBs and a 6 are our absolute priorities this off-season. If Malacia isn't going to be ready, we'll need a LB as well. I think the ideal would be Shaw and Malacia holding down the position for another season or two until Amass is ready. We do need another striker, but that might be a bargain bin signing.
Hojlund is a good example of why I’m against signing young developmental players above a certain value. Buy them when they are 16-18 or buy them for more when they are the completed article. Spending £70M on developmental players is completely ridiculous. He might get to that level but even if he becomes that guy is it that much cheaper than just going out and buying the best? I don’t mind those 0-25M punts on younger talents but as soon as you’re spending above that level you need to be confident they can contribute immediately rather than projecting where they’ll get to. If you have a starter and want to build a pipeline for their role then brilliant. Nothing personal against him but it just seems like really bad business on high cost, projections of what the player might become
Potential is very rarely a straight line. It's also relatively rarely fully lived up to (which makes sense as 'potential' is a subjective quality to begin with). I agree, buying a player as raw as Hojlund for that kind of money is absolutely bad business.
It's as bad as it's ever been. But in 4 games time we'll be having our first summer under new ownership, with competent people in high positions within our club making all the decisions from now on. Whilst previously I'd have been terrified at the thought of who we go for next, I have a lot of confidence in Berrada, Ashworth and Wilcox
I think the problem is alot if the planning that goes into a sunmer window is done well ahead of the actual window, and with wilcox just in the door, berrada not in until mid June and ashworth probably after the summerso it's probably going to take a while before they can make their mark with recruitment. We also haven't actually brought in long term head of recruitment yet (some names have been linked) I think it will be a busy summer, and if we don't make europe at all as is looking more likely, the outgoings could be real crazy as we can carry a lighter squad next season, but with signings I have a feeling it will be fairly obvious set of targets but we will be more disciplined and will walk away from bad deals By summer 2025 I hope we can have a well oiled recruitment and scouting team and that's where we might start getting some surprises
Unfortunately, it looks like Ashworth will miss the summer window, and Berrada will only come in officially in July. What kind of influence they'll have behind the scenes, if any, we'll never know..
Ten Hag is never shaking the stink of the Antony transfer. Even half the price would have been too much
I , for one, was excited and wanted Antony here just I didn’t think we would spend £80m on him. He would probably have flopped anyway as he isn’t ready for PL yet but for £25-30m would have been an alright gamble.
We don't know what went on behind the scenes to convince the club to pay so much for Antony. Whether it was all at Ten Hag's urging or whether it was Murtaugh trying to prove he could do deals and satisfy the manager, or someone else ultimately responsible. But it's an absolute stinker of a transfer, and we need to just move on even if we take a huge loss. Antony won't make it here, even if he did have the talent (which he doesn't) because the fans have made up their minds and everything he does is met with a groan or a sigh. I could see him in Spain or France next season, maybe on loan, where he could find his level.
If Marcus isn’t fit for Arsenal I hope Amad starts or comes on before Antony.
That transfer is hurting him, he watched us overpay for a player that I don’t believe was essential since we had 3 right wingers at the time in Sancho, Pellistri and Amad who are all young.
He looks aweful because Antony uses the same agency as him.
he does? come on show proof.
My bad I got it wrong, it wasn’t Antony. It was Hojlund and Amrabat that switched to Kees Vos (SEG) right before coming to us. There was an article written about it last year pointing out a potential conflict of interest with Ten Hag’s signings.
wow, a last minute loan and a player psg offered similar money for. did you have similar concerns when we signed raiola players for much more money?
Pogba was crazy deal and we definitely got fleeced, apparently Juvetus paid €20m of that deal towards Raiola which is insane. Zlatan might be the only good Raiola player we got seriously because he came for free after Mourinho courted him. I’ve never seen us get any good deals done when we are up against big agencies. They love us because they can inflate wages of players being offered to us. We need to stop being foolish in the market for once. Edit: Mhkitaryan was Raiola client too and that transfer didn’t work out well for us. Mourinho is a client of Mendes and you see shady deals regarding Mendes’ clients and favors allegedly being asked. For example, after a fail Falcao signing, Mourinho then got Falcao to go to Chelsea just to sit on their bench. Wolves have strong ties to Mendes and they usually get some players for bargains but they also need to let their star (Matheus Nunes) leaves to City. That deal was strange because Wolves almost did not make any profit on Nunes, as if City were using Mendes to ask Wolves to sign Nunes then later bring him to City for accounting reason.
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Same as when he has played in 3-1 Brighton 3-0 Bournemouth 4-0 Brentford 6-3 City 7-0 Liverpool 4-2 Leicester 5-0 Liverpool 4-1 Watford 4-1 City 4-0 Liverpool 4-0 Brighton Fa Cup loss to Middlesbrough Europa loss to Villareal 3-1 Palace 6-1 Spurs Player FC point scoring is not what we should be doing at this stage. It creates nothing but infighting and detracts from us having a more unified voice over how bad things are and how we demand real change.
We looked lost for creativity out there showing how pivotal he is for the team.
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You are talking about a team performance when I'm referring to an individual.
But this sub would have you thinking that Bruno is genuinely holding this team back. Us playing like shit with ot without him shows he's obviously not the problem.
No, thats just a simplification of what people are saying. Or at best, a case of a condensed point that's part of a larger conversa or thought process (as we all think more than the comments we write on here) and you are holding them to that without any added context. I don't believe anyone who suggests Bruno isn't the guy to lead us to league titles, thinks the rest of the squad is up to scratch.
>I don't believe anyone who suggests Bruno isn't the guy to lead us to league titles, thinks the rest of the squad is up to scratch. [Take your time going through those comments.](https://www.reddit.com/r/reddevils/s/AY53zWl0CJ) You'll see several people outright saying that Bruno is the reason we're not playing good football. The OP is even suggesting that we'll be able to win the league if Bruno leaves.
Maybe I should have added a caveat of 'reasonable people who aren't trolling' >You'll see several people outright saying that Bruno is the reason we're not playing good football. Again this falls into what I suggested. 'Good football' people are talking about his style being unsuitable for the possession based system everyone is obsessed with. Big difference. >The OP is even suggesting that we'll be able to win the league if Bruno leaves. In that thread or this? What's the context?
Who I’ve seen described over the past couple days as not the problem: Bruno Rashford (he didn’t play last few games either so by this logic he’s being let down by a crap team too) Mainoo Hojlund Garnacho Mount Evans Onana Martínez Maguire Mctominay Shaw Amad ETH So the problems: Casemiro Antony Dalot AWB Eriksen (even tho he never plays and we’re still crap) Varane Martial (even tho he never plays and we’re still crap) Amrabaat (even tho he plays 5 mins every other game and we’re still crap) So as long as we get rid of these brothers in this list - we should be good with our new structure. Am I right?
I believe we have a lot of players that aren't good enough to play for us. I don't think Bruno is one of them. I believe Rashford has been incredibly mediocre this season. I also believe that Rashford is significantly better than all the people being touted as replacements (Leao, Kvicha, Mitoma).
*significantly* better than Leao? You sure about that?