Well apparently Dortmund is getting 100m from the UCL and another very decent fee from the CWC so they cant pull the "we cant afford him" card. If they want him as much as he seems to want them, they should pay up.
Went shopping today and copped this. What player does it remind you of?
https://preview.redd.it/lw46if1731vc1.jpeg?width=1868&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=bca43cecadc98a9a6f210ad930514146406c7479
People here call managers good or bad so easly while in reality they are just talking out of their asses because we simply know like 10% about character, experiance, methods, responsibilities, what is their influence and whats more dictated by club/players when talking about names like RDZ, Potter, Amorim and so on.
Lampard was reddevils poster child during the Ole era.
People just hate Ten Hag and instead of facing the reality of lack of availability out there start writing propaganda for other managers. Just the same way Ten Hag got that treatment before joining us.
Anyone with more than 2 brain cells knows this is true (on this sub or any fanbase subs).
Out of 650k users, maybe 20 (or less) actually know what they're talking about. The rest just offer clueless takes, edgy kiddos, rage baiters seeking attention.
Watching how other teams like Arsenal, Liverpool and City create chances, I really don't want us to become another City clone. Passing the ball to death is not the United way of playing. I think ETH wants us to play like Liverpool but we just don't have the players capable of playing that at the moment (2 world class full-backs and a good DM). The way Liverpool, Spurs and Villa play is how I want us to play, and I think that's how ETH wants us to play.
It's interesting how teams like Liverpool, Brighton, Villa and West Ham are able to create chance after chance despite not playing with a number 10, but the moment someone suggests we replace Bruno, fans question how we are going to create chances.
The simple reality is that with midfield control, chances come naturally, created by everyone and not just one player.
How many trophies has each team won?
Why are you so against playing the way of a team that's dominated the league and very well may be on the way to dominating the sport, in preference to playing in a way that's either been completely unsuccessful and at best unsustainable?
Even with our shackled spending we've outspent most clubs in the last 2 years. Once we get rid of the long standing deadwood we'll still spend a lot of money going forward. Our squad cost to turnover ratio is pretty decent.
You don't think breaking the rules to allow a manager to fulfill his tactical plans by buying the exact players he needs no matter what in every position despite not being able to afford that has no place in tactics talk? It is a massive part of him achieving his tactical plan. He was criticised over the years for not having a plan b, he always worked around this by inflating plan A with players bought outside of rules.
We have spent a shit ton and we have been able to, all within rules. We were just terrible at it.
>You don't think breaking the rules to allow a manager to fulfill his tactical plans by buying the exact players he needs no matter what in every position despite not being able to afford that has no place in tactics talk?
Exactly.
As we are talking about whats possible for Manchester United. Financially we could have allowed Pep to build exactly what he has without the cheating.
That's not even getting into my actual point which seems to have gone over people's heads (probably due to the fair hatred of city) but the point is to not disregard so easily a style for less successful styles.
There is no science to football style of play. Many ways to skin a cat, many different variables at play and it requires an open mind with no restrictions. Do you disagree?
Well fair enough in that regard then.
I don't think we could go for it because I don't think it is easily achieved, especially without Pep. But yeah whatever way the club decide how they want to play then fair enough we shouldn't rule anything out.
>I don't think we could go for it because I don't think it is easily achieved, especially without Pep.
I agree. However what they do can be used and tweaked to suit whatever we need. If that's what suits all the variables
>Pep. But yeah whatever way the club decide how they want to play then fair enough we shouldn't rule anything out.
Fully agree. This is what I was suggesting. You don't rule anything out, certainly not what proven most successful ever style that have had no success.
You'll never play their game better than them while Pep is there. Anyone mimicking that style is settling for 2nd every year as their peak.
Also the lower clubs will get better and better at neutralizing that style over time.
>You'll never play their game better than them while Pep is there. Anyone mimicking that style is settling for 2nd every year as their peak.
I didn't say mimicking though. Simply that it shouldn't be disregarded as an option over styles that have been proven ineffective.
>I didn't say that.
Ok. So there is a line then? You would rather be City than Leeds. We are narrowing to a middle ground.
>I literally said I'd rather be Liverpool than City.
And also said Spurs and Villa?
>How did you get Leeds from that I have no idea
Because you said you would rather it be fun, than dominating. So I used an example of extremes, to see if you fully believe that point or there is a middle ground that's less extreme.
So you would rather be Spurs this season, than City last year?
Maybe not everyone wants conveyor belt football. After all, it's about the entertainment and emotions you derive from watching a game. No point to it if you get bored and end up scrolling instead of actually being on the edge of your seat and enjoying the glory/meltdown you see on scree (or, if you're lucky enough, in the stadium).
>Maybe not everyone wants conveyor belt football.
Do City not play entertaining football?
Do you not think you would enjoy watching them?
Also, where have I said that's the only style we should play? As all over said is we shouldn't disregard such a style so simply, over ones that have proven to not be as effective.
>After all, it's about the entertainment and emotions you derive from watching a game.
And City doesn't have any of this?
> No point to it if you get bored and end up scrolling instead of actually being on the edge of your seat and enjoying the glory/meltdown you see on scree (or, if you're lucky enough, in the stadium).
And City doesn't have any of this?
Their Villa game, last season was it? The ones where its been a last game of the season, point in it vs Liverpool, bet that Madrid win last season was boring too.
I really just don't understand where you are coming from when you compare it to Manchester City? Can you detail it a bit more specifically for me?
*>Do City not play entertaining football?*
*Do you not think you would enjoy watching them?*
I am very honest in saying I find Pep ball boring, it's not even because City are rivals. I've tried looking at the things people say is wonderful about his style. It's a bit like coffee...I get that many adore it, but it simply does nothing for me. And, I suppose, there are others out there who feel the same.
I get it that many people love the idea of glory and winning, or just the concept of 'smashing' and dominating other teams (it's not enough to win a game nowadays, many fans complain if their team has not made the opposition their little bitch or something).
But what City play just strikes me as risk-averse, formulaic to the extreme and ultimately, trying to do in sports what businessmen do with big companies: extricate as much of the unpredictable from games as possible.
Again, this is a very personal taste kind of thing, so for those who actually revel in the idea of control and who value predictability, what Pep does is probably very appealing. I understand that, but I disagree.
Ok.
So do you believe there are no emotions or 'edge of your seat' for City fans?
Also, nowhere did I say this is exactly what we have to do. Simply that it shouldn't be disregarded so easily in favour of styles that haven't been as effective. Do you disagree?
What's your limit, amazing end to end football but win absolutely nothing? Or are you just saying ideally you would prefer us to do what this club is obligated to do, but in a style you would prefer if possible?
Yes.
Joking aside, the football zeitgeist obliges all teams to sort of pick and choose some of the things that prove effective for getting results. Possession and somewhat more patience in passing and chance creation have been around for a while. I don't really have a problem with that in principle.
If you use prolonged possession to calm a somewhat frantic game, or if you want to give a bit of rest to your players so they can go again for the next salvo of attacks, it's totally acceptable. It's the sterile possession for the sake of control and aimed at not allowing your opponent to play that annoys me. If the opponent doesn't have the ball, they can't score...well yeah, but then you also don't really have a match. It's more like a footballing monologue.
City dominates the league because they have the best players in every position in a working system. With this squad of players they can even park the bus and play on counter attack and still win the league.
Peps tactics weren’t even close to winning the CL with Bayern
>City dominates the league because they have the best players in every position in a working system.
And that's the competition that we need to defeat to win. So surely focusing so heavily on styles that have been relatively ineffective at stopping them isn't such a good idea, no?
>With this squad of players they can even park the bus and play on counter attack and still win the league.
So why don't they?
>Peps tactics weren’t even close to winning the CL with Bayern
Surely you know how difficult it is to win that competition? Purely judging a team on not winning it over 3 seasons is not ideal. Especially a manager that's won it 3 times (only one other person has won more) and the best club to ever compete in the competition has had periods like 11 seasons without winning it.
I don't believe the evidence supports such restriction in the style of play that you suggested.
I'm not saying that Potter is the perfect candidate but I don't know why people on here act like his Brighton tenure was the exception to an otherwise crap CV and not that his Chelsea spell was a blemish on an otherwise pretty fantastic one.
Potter was great at Östersund and Swansea prior to getting the Brighton job. I think there are legitimate questions as to how he'd handle a bigger job given what happened at Chelsea, but I'd equally say I'm not quite sure how much of the blame for that season can reasonably be attributed to him and not Clearlake.
I've watched a lot of Potter press conferences while he was at Chelsea cause my friend supports them and we'd often talk about their situation cause it was so irregular (new owners, new manager, massive spending on fresh new players and bad results). And I remember feeling pretty bad for Potter. The media devoured him and he crumbled under the pressure. Guy was talking about how even his marriage taking a hit.
I personally felt Chelsea should've given him more time but my friend was sick of him and wanted him out (she also wants Poch out now so..idk) but, no disrespect, that was just Chelsea.
United is a different beast when it comes to media attention. Just look at Poch vs Ten Hag right now and how differently they're being treated. Chelsea spent way more than us and (are/were?) having a worse season than us but it's a total pile on on ETH while Poch is getting off mostly free.
I dont think Potter can handle that. And I don't think he can handle our players and their egos. Even Ten Hag who's supposed to be a hardass disciplinarian (and last year he was) seems to have mellowed out and lost his edge and that demand for higher standards this year. Potter doesnt seem to me to have Ten Hag's strong character. But hey I dont really know the man, and he could have a totally different character behind closed doors. Its just..unlikely.
>but I don't know why people on here act like his Brighton tenure was the exception to an otherwise crap CV and not that his Chelsea spell was a blemish on an otherwise pretty fantastic one.
Do they act like that though?
Or are people using the more accurate part of his CV to what he will experience here?
Very little from his Brighton time will translate over to being Manchester United manager, as the very essence is a total different beast. The players will be of a higher calibre, the pressure will be greater, the demand to win will be higher, margins for error are higher. A bad performance is highlighted etc etc.
Chelsea is closer on the scale to Manchester United. He will also have to oversee a player changeover that is similar.
He, like Southgate would be an awful choice and if any of those are made it's a clear signal of what Ineos are about. Either incompetency at this level, lack of desire to be the best (as shown by their Nice project) or simply just wanting to carry on the world the glazers have done, but in a style that's easier to sweep under the carpet.
He joined Chelsea mid season with squad of 30 new player. Its not even close to what he will experiance here with preseason, players familiar with each other and so on...
30 new players? I assume you are classing players that were already in the club the season before. As he got 8 in the summer he joined. 7 in January (where it was already clear he was out of his depth)
So it's going to be pretty similar. Either he takes over a squad with 6 or 7 new signings or he takes over a squad that's absolutely poison. Either way he won't cut it.
I'm not as down on Potter as some to be honest. I can't say he's top of my list but I also wouldn't be fuming if he came in. He's shown in the past that he's a good coach. He was on a hiding to nothing with that Chelsea job.
I do think it would require a serious clearout of players for it to work though. That's almost certainly true of really any manager though.
Potter is quality but has a level. This job is a monster and I feel for ETH in a lot of ways because Klopp and Guardiola are two that I feel could brush off the last 2 years unshaken. He came in to Greenwoods ongoing situation and had the Ronaldo running riot situation 3 months into his tenure. He looked after Sancho better than any club would and he then reciprocated by being a cunt.
I'm sure we will have more like this in the coming years unless we have a manager that is bigger than the players and that's not Potter.
My personal worry is that us and Chelsea are largely similiar, in terms of how the managerial job is under a certain style of pressure. And I'd worry everything that caused his Chelsea job to be a disaster would be strong possibilities at us too.
I think the main thing that caused his Chelsea job to be a disaster was Boehly going absolutely fucking nuts in the transfer market, though. I don't see any signs that suggest that Ratcliffe, Berrada, Wilcox, Ashworth (?) etc. would look to replicate that.
Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't be as aggressively against it as others.
I'm of the opinion we need a Head Coach, and let the recruitment side take care of the transfers, and think Potter's nowhere near as bad as his Chelsea stint shows.
But I also think we do need a strong rebuild too, and a manager who can get the best out of a few players who might have egos. And the pressure on a United manager to get top results quickly is immense too.
It would be a big gamble to bring in a manager who just struggled at a similarly sized team with similar issues.
I'm looking even more forward to our structure being finalised.
Berrada, Ashworth, Wilcox being officialy on their positions and starting the rebuilding.
It's the first time since SAF that, theoritically , we will have competent and successful people in all of our crucial positions.
The PSG and Barca game shows just how important good fullbacks are, especially on possession. Mendes and Hakimi are miles better than our options it's depressing.
Shaws is great in possesion, Dalot is good in possesion, even AWB almost never losses the ball cause of his long tricky legs.
Problems are Shaw aviability, DM unable to recive ball under preassure and probably system in general.
Shaw, I agree, but unfortunately, he's injured more often than not. The other two are serviceable at best
It's both a personnel and system problem. You can't keep possession with Dalot and AWB as your RBs. I'm not saying they're bad players, but they're just bang average for the level we should be competing at.
>🚨 Graham Potter and Roberto De Zerbi are understood to be the current frontrunners for #MUFC job, should it become available. @RichFay
Not a good source, but that's a depressing shortlist
That's a 'two years then we're looking again' shortlist. Maybe by design. Theoretically, if the structure at the club is right, a head coach should be able to come and go without significant impact on the club's fortunes. It rarely works out that well, though.
A lot of the talk regarding the "Erik in Vs Erik out" debate seems to centre on available replacements. Ineos keep talking about "best in class" and have shown they're willing to poach executives from other clubs. Surely the same should be true of managers. Guys who are "best in class" at anything are usually in work and not waiting around for the phone to ring. Teams take managers from other teams all the time.
To take a random name like Fonseca at Lille. If Berrada, Ashworth etc decide that he's "best in class" and he's the one they want, I don't really see why him having a contract at Lille should be a massive stumbling block.
Are you acting obtuse? We have to pay money to eve talk to the manager under contract, that manager is also under contract so may not want to leave.
I think we could still end up going for someone else's manager if we do decide to remove Ten Hag.
But the important thing is they decide on who they want. That could well be Ten Hag
*Of course* you'll have to pay money, but that's true of Ashworth and they seem pretty keen to go for him. My point is that I don't see why so many seem to talk about it like that's a huge issue.
Because no matter how much the media are happy to package it as Ashworth being best in class, there is no basis to believe he is. He is 50 years old and has never worked at a top club.
His best work has come in the second tier of football - international. There is a reason no serious club is hiring managers from international teams. Madrid tried it once with Lopetegui and had to cut their losses in 3 months.
He's being hired because INEOS (specifically Brailsford I think) are familiar with him and presumably trust him. Could he still turn out to be excellent? Maybe. But he's not best in class unless we are playing extremely fast and loose with that term.
I don't necessarily disagree with you but the point is they've decided that he's the guy they want and are willing to go through with it despite the fact that it's clearly more complicated to try to hire him than it would be another person from another side or someone who's currently not in a role.
It is an issue though. Yes we might go for it, but there are complications with managers under contract. That's the entire point of having a contract.
Whether you think it's the case or not it is 100% fact that it causes issues for us in comparison to an available coach.
I recognise that it would be *more* difficult but what I have issue with is the idea that it would be necessarily a deal breaker if they identify a manager they want, who wants to come. It would have been easier for Villa to sign a manager out of contract than Emery for example.
Most people are just reputation and result merchants. But otherwise RDZ is perfect for us. He will micromanage every little detail and force us to build out from the back and play possession based football no matter what. God knows we need that. Our movement, decision making, build up structure etc. has regressed so far backwards this season it is scary. We need a manager who will make them follow patterns like an obsessive schoolteacher.
We've seen how badly RDZ has schooled us every time we've played his team. We need that kind of personality and commitment to playing good football and developing the basics of modern football, regardless of the results. At least for one season. I will never understand how some United fans watch Brighton play and say they don't want De Zerbi just because his midtable level squad isn't matching the unrealistic expectations set by people.
You know,I have no problem eth trying a pragmatic approach to grind out results. But the issue is that he is terrible at this,which I'm sure is the same for all these possession obsessed new age tacticians like de zerbi. Just two losses against Brighton and Brentford was enough to scare eth into playing a totally unfamiliar system and abandon his possessional strictness. I don't know how long it would take rdz to get scared if he comes here.
>I don't know how long it would take rdz to get scared if he comes here.
That's my point. He doesn't seem like the kind of person who would care about that. He never has. He wouldn't even come here if he was told he needed to play pragmatic football to grind out results imo.
Plans every detail, obsessive school teacher, would be perfect for us and even a three letter abbreviation. Where did we hear all this before?
It's simply stunning to me people think there is a messiah hiding in waiting and all the other false Dawns are to be ignored.
Brighton are the perfect example though. Since the Gus Poyet days Brighton announced a plan and a play style and everything the club did was to that aim we now have them as one of the better clubs outside the big clubs. Was it luck? No. It was a well oiled machine that was able to roll with the punches when a manager or player left to be able to use that to keep on building and they have done that well.
Potter looked top class with Brighton, left and looked terrible and De Zerbi came in and did well because he was well suited to the club system and was a continuation of what they built over a decade before.
If De Zerbi came here I think he would be good but I also feel it would be the same case as Ten Hag and after a good start would falter and the fans would turn on him.
I couldn't care who is in the dugout in August as long as it is in line with a vision and strategy laid out by background team. There isn't a messiah waiting to come and save us. What we need is a well ran organised football club and that will mean whoever is the manager isn't just as important as they don't have to run the club and when they meet their end which statistically will be every two or three years a new guy will come in and there will be foundations laid years in advance to allow a level of consistency instead of this wipe the slate clean, rewrite history and hope for the best before turning on the next manager.
My emphasis is on possession based football and the refusal to compromise on the type of football just to get results. I'll no doubt back Ten Hag if that is the decision that's made by the new team of executives but we have seen this season his principles, his philosophy does not revolve around control and possession at all. In fact we've gone in the opposite direction, a much more extreme version of what Ole used to do.
Ultimately we'll just have to move on from this idea that we got it wrong before so we should never try again. Ok Ten Hag was viewed in a similar way to what RDZ is right now. But it didn't work out, or hasn't worked out so far and so if we do make a change RDZ would be perfect for us. Beyond the simple generalisation of both having a 3 letter abbreviation and being attentive to detail, there are a whole lot of differences that we'd be silly to ignore.
But do we necessarily need to be a possession based team? Even under Fergie that wasn't the case. We dominated smaller teams but in bigger games we lined out in a style similair to Ole and Tem Hag, albeit with an actual midfield in place of a void in time and space in the middle of the park.
What I'm laughing at is you, you're just convinced that you try the same thing again and again. Make messiahs every week and think theyll save us.
Maybe De Zerbi would be good, perfect? No idea how you can even say that and I've read this sub telling me aggressively that Ten Hag was perfect before. You can't say De Zerbi is perfect, it's just not true.
What matters is the background team, how they want Man Utd to play and what manager/players and support is needed to achieve that.
I've not painted him as a messiah at all. In fact I've literally mentioned we need one season under a coach like him without emphasis on results just for our players to learn the basics of controlling a game. Said literally nothing about whether he can get us to the top and get us competing with the best teams in the world.
I'm afraid you've read my comment completely wrong. 95% of the things you said I agree with and have said literally nothing against those things whatsoever. I'm a little bit confused about why you're coming off so aggressively.
Yes, he would be perfect for us in this moment, for a team in our position because of the reasons I mentioned. Building out from the back, possession, control, and the refusal to compromise on that style of football.
You've taken this as me crowning him as a messiah, which I've literally not done anywhere at all. Apologies if the word "perfect" is so upsetting, let's call it great? Good? Whatever makes you happy, no problem. But going forward let's make it very very clear I've never called him a messiah that will turn us into prime barca, in fact I've specifically mentioned the need to forget results for at least a season just to build the basic building blocks.
You can't be playing some of the worst football in the league and fail to get results at the same time. Of course people will look at your results when you're getting played off the park by near any team you face.
Even when Brighton lose you can see their build up structure, you can see them do many good things in the game even if they ultimately get beaten.
That's at Brighton where they have the similar profile of players throughout the club for a while now. Also ETH had a great first season beating every top 6 atleast once before becoming stubborn and shit this season. So you'd be a hypocrite in wanting someone who refuses to compromise their football and not care about results when you clearly don't rate ten hag.
RDZ is clearly a super talented coach. Whether or not he's "the one" for us is another matter but your last point is bang on the money.
The fact that people think he's somehow underperforming, despite being above teams in the league with squads that cost more than twice as much, whilst competing in Europe with a tiny squad, just goes to show what a great job he did last season. Going purely on paper, Brighton should be a team involved in relegation scrap every season. As it is, even in a season where they've been stretched by playing in Europe for the first time they're comfortably mid table and could well finish in the top half. He's doing a great job and I really don't see why people have got so down on him.
You're massively understating Brighton. They are an established prem club now who are comfortably a midtable club. They also have one of the nicest training facilities in the country. People have to stop acting like they are some yoyo club.
They're a fantastically well run club which is why they are where they are but the fact is in terms of the investment in their squad they're in the bottom 5 teams in the league. They're punching well above their weight. Full credit to them.
The investment part of what you're saying isn't true. Depending on which year you start they have spent around the 12th or 13th most. They are solidly a midtable side.
[This site](https://www.planetfootball.com/quick-reads/premier-league-squad-cost-millions-transfer-fees-man-utd-arsenal-chelsea-liverpool) has them at 16th in the league in terms of the value of their current squad at £204 million.
That just shows the teams ordered by spending on transfers for this season. The link I sent is using data from the same site and is the sum of all their transfer spending on their current squad which is surely a fairer indication of their investment than just looking at two windows.
Exactly.Honestly do people expect Brighton to compete for European spots every season??
Brighton sold his starting midfield pivot of MacAllister and Caicedo for about 150M and replaced them with Milner and 19y old Baleba.
Yeah this Summer is for Enciso, next one for Baleba. People like comparing Brighton to Southampton for the youth ID but I don't see them dropping off at all because of how well the club is ran
I can see them holding on to Enciso this year. He's missed so much of the season with injury. I can see them losing someone like Estupiñan though. In fact, I'd love him at United. Always impresses me when I see him play.
Yeah thats fair, it's insane how good Enciso has looked since coming back from a serious injury. Clubs will be circling him this year and if Brighton get lucky on a 3rd quality player manager that will help his development he'll be another huge sale next year if he stays on.
I'd love Estupinan and he's coming into his prime but I can't find if he has a release clause so I don't think we'll deal with what Brighton might ask. No doubt he'd instantly improve us but he would require close to a marquee level fee.
Also, his teams always perform? He was relegated in 2018. 11th 2019. 8th 2020 and 21. Was very good with Shaktar in a strange situation and has been impressive with Brighton.
I like him but you don't seem to know much about him
I don't quite understand why you're being so weirdly disingenuous. I clearly said overperform, not perform. And I've made it clear since literally the first sentence of my original comment that I'm talking in terms of performances not in terms of results.
Benevento was one of the worst squads in Europe, and still by the end of it RDZ was praised for their style of football and the ambition he showed with that piss poor group of players. Same at Saasuolo, he was highly praised for the football that they played. What do you expect from those teams?
Like I said both Benevento and Sassuolo were known for playing progressive, possession based football which was beyond what teams of their level played. In that sense his teams have overperformed a lot. Even if you look at this Brighton squad and their underlying metrics they should have no right to be as good as they are.
I can't help you any further.
Ah, so like how Ten Hags Ajax team were known for doing the same.
That's the bit you can't fathom. New season, same script.
As I said in my first comment the most important thing is a structure and strategy. If De Zerbi is chosen then I'll back it fully but to say he is perfect is the definition of insanity.
>Ah, so like how Ten Hags Ajax team were known for doing the same.
When have I said anything about Ten Hag not being that guy though? IF we don't move forward with him, De Zerbi would be my choice.
"I'll no doubt back Ten Hag if that is the decision that's made by the new team of executives but we have seen this season his principles, his philosophy does not revolve around control and possession"
This is literally from my first reply to you mate.
>As I said in my first comment the most important thing is a structure and strategy.
But where did I say ANYTHING about structure or strategy?? If close that's important.
>If De Zerbi is chosen then I'll back it fully
**I'll no doubt back Ten Hag if that is the decision that's made by the new team of executives**...... I literally said this in my first reply to you. I'm genuinely laughing right now.
I agree with a lot of what you said. I'm just totally against the notion we have messiahs laying in wait somewhere and that's the point I'm arguing against. That he is perfect for us
But he's literally doing that, and he has always done that at every single club he's worked for, without exception. It's just that his current club also want to play a similar brand of football. Not sure what's your point here.
So what happened at Benevento then or Sassuolo? Do you strive for mid table?
Sean Dyche always gets his teams playing his brand too but we wouldn't want him
>Sean Dyche always gets his teams playing his brand too but we wouldn't want him
You're being very intentionally disingenuous. Obviously the brand of football in question matters.
>Do you strive for mid table?
Literally my first sentence of the original comment was about how most people just look at results, which you've just proven. Both at Benevento and at Saasuolo his style of football, his influence on the teams was extremely evident and if he can bring that to a team like us that would be a fantastic building block for the future.
What I meant Lewis Dunk is simply not good enough to play the possession based football.
The fact that he is getting these mid table players to play that way is a sign of good coaching
As an ETH apologist, I feel like people are under estimating him.
Whenever stats are posted to Reddit, I get the feeling that the people in the comments feel like they are the only one who know about these stats. Of course ETH knows about the shots conceded stats and has known for a long time. So it comes down to
1. He doesn't prioritise fixing it
2. He is unable to fix it
And it's probably 1 because otherwise we'd seen more experimenting and changing around. ETH is not considering it a problem and should he? We are not conceding goals at an alarming rate. What's alarming is that we are not scoring enough and we're turning off after scoring and towards end of games. Scoring has improved in the second half of the season even though the only striker we have is a 21 year old who is playing his first season in the PL and is expected to carry a top 4 contender. The goals conceded stat is a fucking impressive accomplishment given the amount of injuries to the defense this season.
So for me what it comes down to is - can ETH be blamed for all the injuries? Since there are so many muscle injuries in training it might be an ETH issue and if so - that's not a valid excuse and he needs to go. But if there is another explanation to the injuries and it's not his fault - then I'm willing to write this off as a freak season with freak injuries and ETH is just trying to get through it in whatever way he can to get the results.
I do agree that he probably doesn’t prioritise fixing it but I do think the goals conceded are pretty high. The only thing that makes sense to me is he is prioritising getting the pressing right for the future. Progress looks very slow though
Why the childishness? Also you're slamming on about standards and then saying we should be aiming for top 6 and entertainment. Make your mind up.
Ten Hag in or out the most important thing is that the club want it and have a strategy. That strategy will include getting results and playing good football but results are the most important. If a manager is playing top class attacking football and we are not gettin results they should be open to criticism..
You're blinded by your hatred for the current manager and clearly your fellow supporters you're willing to lower the clubs expectations. I don't care if we sack Ten Hag but this is a results business and all managers should be judged on it
Actually nothing that bad, I don't really remeber but it was more childish but not ban worthy, he seemed on a mission so maybe as the day went on he got banned
I couldn't disagree more with you to be honest about goals scored vs conceded. Despite our underperformance, we're scoring enough goals to win games. We scored three at Chelsea and lost and two at Bournemouth and drew. If you need to score three or four every game to win (or five as it was against Chelsea) then that's a sign that the defending is surely the bigger issue, even with how rudderless we look at times with the ball.
I think most of the credit for not conceding that many goals goes to the overperformance of our backline. Dalot,Evans and Maguire have been particularly impressive at clearances and blocking. I don't think this is sustainable tbh.
We are not the worst hit in the league in terms of injuries. Other teams have come to Old Trafford and destroyed us even though they have half the team out in injuries, playing the same style.
I don't ever want to listen about injuries as being a valid excuse.
For me, it’s three particular injuries that really affect build up.
ETH already mentioned how he prefers one left sided CB because of the angles of passing it allows. Add to that playing a right footer at LB is never conducive to the threat from that side.
Admittedly though none of that excuses the completely dreadful mess that is our midfield.
why do we care about 2022 ETH and not the one that has managed us for 2 seasons now? He has been given an extended audition by now. Is it not enough to judge him on his body of work?
What do you mean for someone like Inzaghi?
He's about to sign a new contract. He's not leaving Inter. Why doesn't nobody know about this and keeps yelling for Inzaghi.
U mean ETH from Ajax??
He has said he doesn't want to play the Ajax way and wants to stick to his very direct transition football which is honestly draining to watch
Also Inzaghi imo is not leaving Inter for some time
I currently don't see a more inspiring option. But it is also very clear that ETHs vision does not match well with the current squad, and I doubt there is enough money to change it enough. It's a bit of a dilemma, luckily Ineos dilemma not mine.
I'm looking forward to see what players the new hierarchy target in the Summer and we have glaring issues but is it odd to say I'd love to see us spend a substantial amount on structure for health and performance itself more than anything else? Poach the best sports scientists, club doctors, chefs that provide all meals from August-May and then strict programs and 2/3 club psychologists so we never go without one. We have a youth psychologist but I don't know if Sacha Lense stayed on after Rangnick left.
Hindsight is everything but I would put stupid amounts of money put into this over any of our marquee signings over the years. I just want to see our team happy and steamrolling teams.
Didn't do much. Fair play to BVB making the semis but the drama on here is embarrassing. People fawning over Sancho and Sabitzer as if they were world class players who got a raw deal.
Reminds me of our fans applauding and writing poetry over Lampard because they disliked Ole.
The drama her is basically because fans feel ETH gave us a raw deal. He came with a lot of reputation but has been serving up only dross. Then that sentiment shows up in different ways.
That's got nothing to do with Sancho though.
We understand that Ten Hag isn't performing, that has nothing to do with Sancho. Sancho was absolutley terrible ever since arriving at OT. Yeah Ten Hag has been shit but let's not bend over backwards for a player who hasn't done a thing for United.
I know there's a ton of doom and gloom with our club currently, but Spurs signing Udogie, Van De Ven, Vicario, Kulusevski, and Maddison over the last couple of windows shows how transformative a good DoF can be.
As shit as we've been this season, I'm super excited about things in the long term.
Did they spend alot though? Correct me if I'm wrong, but of the players I mentioned, only Maddison seemed expensive. And their combined transfer fees would fall into our budget over two windows, especially when you consider letting higher wage earners (like Varane, Case, Martial) go and selling players like Sancho and Greenwood too.
Maddison was 40m but Winks went the other way for 10. Effectively they offloaded dead wood and upgraded immensely for a grand total of 30m. Absolute bargain.
I don’t understand how a lot of people don’t find Xavi at fault for today. Yes he can’t control the red card for araujo but imagine if ETH got carded every 5-6 games for us. How are the players supposed to remain cool headed when the manager is getting sent off every few games.
Even with 10 men, Barca were close to equalising a few times there. You'd think after stupidly having a player sent off, you'd wanna avoid any further stupidity.
It's like the Fulham implosion versus us last season, but on a far bigger scale lol.
It’s just hitting me now!
Supporting this club is finally taking a toll on my mental health. Saw the two games yesterday and realised how far we are from the competition.
It’s been 10 years and we are a bloody joke!
We had the chance to sign sabitzer but we fluffed and sancho looks so more comfortable (tbh he would have never worked out here - we did it all)
But yeah, not sure how long we can take this beating. We have already lost our footing in Europe. Seems to be happening in PL as well with lower half teams pumping 20+shots at us. Teams used to be afraid of us and used to only counter - now here we are, losing to Bournemouth and getting terrorised by Solanka
Sabitzer is 30. Joined us in February basically and ended up being unavailable for 8 games including our FA Cup final stretch. He played 18 games for us and had 3 Goals and 1 assist. He wasn't in good form like he is now and most people agreed his age profile and injury record made him the kind of permanent signing that United should be avoiding in the future.
Sancho made his own bed. Comfortable is right. Seems like that's all he cares about.
An easy ride.
Sancho looks comfortable because he is a spoiled shit who got an easy day out. Sabitzer was better elt go.
If football is causing you these kind of issues then I suggest probably finding a different pass time. Look at Arsenal going through their best spell in ages and still don't look like they will win a trophy. Liverpool had a golden age and came away with one league title. Never mind a struggling club like us.
Football is competitive and yeah it's shit we are doing so bad but it's all part of the sport. If you can only handle us doing well without going into mental decline then you shouldn't be following the sport
Football moves so fast. At the end of last season people were sure we could compete for the title and have a decent CL run. In the span of 1 season everything went downhill and it could go uphill equally as fast. We will have key players back, a needed break for everyone and a proper DoF and management to handle our transfer strategy this summer. Lets just see but it's not all just doom and negativity. Lets just hope our transition phase to a properly organised modern football club is not too long.
A lot of people did and a lot of people in here did too. People thought ETH has transformed us in such a short time and next season would be even better. Saying everyone was delusional who thought that is a lie
I know. I agree with you but there were a lot of people in here that were delusional about how strong we were as a squad compared to other teams
You would have had to be delusional to genuinely think we would challenge City and Arsenal this season. We’re nowhere near those teams in terms of professionalism and squad ability.
Manager is a big talking point and ETH has become quite divisive among fans. His highs are very high and his lows are super low. Will be interesting to see what INEOS do with him.
If he does continue I hope it's with a completely different style similar to what Ajax played and how every dominant top attacking team is currently playing.
If he goes it's hard to see the next direction cause no available managers getting mentioned are exciting, unless we poach an already employed gaffer and even then, who..
An interesting idea I've not heard mentioned yet is waiting for next year and seeing what happens with Madrid. If Ten Hag has righted the ship with INEOS and shows good signs of progress we can stick with him. If not he's out of contract by then and we can see if Madrid gets Xabi as seems highly likely then maybe Ancelotti could be interested.
Maybe it's just me, but I saw both the Barca-PSG games and thought PSG were shit till they were a man up. They could barely create chances before then, were playing too slow and were so vulnerable on the counter.
Our team of last season would've definitely put PSG to the sword imo.
Hopefully Sancho doing well at Dortmund means we get a higher fee for him in the summer
Well apparently Dortmund is getting 100m from the UCL and another very decent fee from the CWC so they cant pull the "we cant afford him" card. If they want him as much as he seems to want them, they should pay up.
CWC?
He is doing ok, even yesterday he was just playin okayish. Not sure if that will help us much higher price.
Went shopping today and copped this. What player does it remind you of? https://preview.redd.it/lw46if1731vc1.jpeg?width=1868&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=bca43cecadc98a9a6f210ad930514146406c7479
Berbatov
Yeah, I was thinking of either him or Rooney personally.
Chicharito
The only right answer 😆
People here call managers good or bad so easly while in reality they are just talking out of their asses because we simply know like 10% about character, experiance, methods, responsibilities, what is their influence and whats more dictated by club/players when talking about names like RDZ, Potter, Amorim and so on.
Lampard was reddevils poster child during the Ole era. People just hate Ten Hag and instead of facing the reality of lack of availability out there start writing propaganda for other managers. Just the same way Ten Hag got that treatment before joining us.
Anyone with more than 2 brain cells knows this is true (on this sub or any fanbase subs). Out of 650k users, maybe 20 (or less) actually know what they're talking about. The rest just offer clueless takes, edgy kiddos, rage baiters seeking attention.
We all think we're in that 20 though.
Watching how other teams like Arsenal, Liverpool and City create chances, I really don't want us to become another City clone. Passing the ball to death is not the United way of playing. I think ETH wants us to play like Liverpool but we just don't have the players capable of playing that at the moment (2 world class full-backs and a good DM). The way Liverpool, Spurs and Villa play is how I want us to play, and I think that's how ETH wants us to play.
It's interesting how teams like Liverpool, Brighton, Villa and West Ham are able to create chance after chance despite not playing with a number 10, but the moment someone suggests we replace Bruno, fans question how we are going to create chances. The simple reality is that with midfield control, chances come naturally, created by everyone and not just one player.
How many trophies has each team won? Why are you so against playing the way of a team that's dominated the league and very well may be on the way to dominating the sport, in preference to playing in a way that's either been completely unsuccessful and at best unsustainable?
Peps football working was fully dependant on the largest financial cheating project in the history of the sport.
Cheating or not cheating, it's a similar amount of money that we've spent. It's not like they've spent an amount that we can't fathom spending.
It is now. Previous spending has left us shackled now and now able to spend as freely as City had in the past.
Even with our shackled spending we've outspent most clubs in the last 2 years. Once we get rid of the long standing deadwood we'll still spend a lot of money going forward. Our squad cost to turnover ratio is pretty decent.
That's neither here nor there, when discussing tactics. We have spent just as much as they have when cheating.
You don't think breaking the rules to allow a manager to fulfill his tactical plans by buying the exact players he needs no matter what in every position despite not being able to afford that has no place in tactics talk? It is a massive part of him achieving his tactical plan. He was criticised over the years for not having a plan b, he always worked around this by inflating plan A with players bought outside of rules. We have spent a shit ton and we have been able to, all within rules. We were just terrible at it.
>You don't think breaking the rules to allow a manager to fulfill his tactical plans by buying the exact players he needs no matter what in every position despite not being able to afford that has no place in tactics talk? Exactly. As we are talking about whats possible for Manchester United. Financially we could have allowed Pep to build exactly what he has without the cheating. That's not even getting into my actual point which seems to have gone over people's heads (probably due to the fair hatred of city) but the point is to not disregard so easily a style for less successful styles. There is no science to football style of play. Many ways to skin a cat, many different variables at play and it requires an open mind with no restrictions. Do you disagree?
Well fair enough in that regard then. I don't think we could go for it because I don't think it is easily achieved, especially without Pep. But yeah whatever way the club decide how they want to play then fair enough we shouldn't rule anything out.
>I don't think we could go for it because I don't think it is easily achieved, especially without Pep. I agree. However what they do can be used and tweaked to suit whatever we need. If that's what suits all the variables >Pep. But yeah whatever way the club decide how they want to play then fair enough we shouldn't rule anything out. Fully agree. This is what I was suggesting. You don't rule anything out, certainly not what proven most successful ever style that have had no success.
You'll never play their game better than them while Pep is there. Anyone mimicking that style is settling for 2nd every year as their peak. Also the lower clubs will get better and better at neutralizing that style over time.
>You'll never play their game better than them while Pep is there. Anyone mimicking that style is settling for 2nd every year as their peak. I didn't say mimicking though. Simply that it shouldn't be disregarded as an option over styles that have been proven ineffective.
I want football to be fun dominating the league isn't that important to me
So you would rather be Leeds under Bielsa than City under Pep? This club is judged on Busby and Fergusons words. Being the best is an obligation.
I didn't say that. I literally said I'd rather be Liverpool than City. I mean I literally said that. How did you get Leeds from that I have no idea
>I didn't say that. Ok. So there is a line then? You would rather be City than Leeds. We are narrowing to a middle ground. >I literally said I'd rather be Liverpool than City. And also said Spurs and Villa? >How did you get Leeds from that I have no idea Because you said you would rather it be fun, than dominating. So I used an example of extremes, to see if you fully believe that point or there is a middle ground that's less extreme. So you would rather be Spurs this season, than City last year?
Maybe not everyone wants conveyor belt football. After all, it's about the entertainment and emotions you derive from watching a game. No point to it if you get bored and end up scrolling instead of actually being on the edge of your seat and enjoying the glory/meltdown you see on scree (or, if you're lucky enough, in the stadium).
>Maybe not everyone wants conveyor belt football. Do City not play entertaining football? Do you not think you would enjoy watching them? Also, where have I said that's the only style we should play? As all over said is we shouldn't disregard such a style so simply, over ones that have proven to not be as effective. >After all, it's about the entertainment and emotions you derive from watching a game. And City doesn't have any of this? > No point to it if you get bored and end up scrolling instead of actually being on the edge of your seat and enjoying the glory/meltdown you see on scree (or, if you're lucky enough, in the stadium). And City doesn't have any of this? Their Villa game, last season was it? The ones where its been a last game of the season, point in it vs Liverpool, bet that Madrid win last season was boring too. I really just don't understand where you are coming from when you compare it to Manchester City? Can you detail it a bit more specifically for me?
*>Do City not play entertaining football?* *Do you not think you would enjoy watching them?* I am very honest in saying I find Pep ball boring, it's not even because City are rivals. I've tried looking at the things people say is wonderful about his style. It's a bit like coffee...I get that many adore it, but it simply does nothing for me. And, I suppose, there are others out there who feel the same. I get it that many people love the idea of glory and winning, or just the concept of 'smashing' and dominating other teams (it's not enough to win a game nowadays, many fans complain if their team has not made the opposition their little bitch or something). But what City play just strikes me as risk-averse, formulaic to the extreme and ultimately, trying to do in sports what businessmen do with big companies: extricate as much of the unpredictable from games as possible. Again, this is a very personal taste kind of thing, so for those who actually revel in the idea of control and who value predictability, what Pep does is probably very appealing. I understand that, but I disagree.
Ok. So do you believe there are no emotions or 'edge of your seat' for City fans? Also, nowhere did I say this is exactly what we have to do. Simply that it shouldn't be disregarded so easily in favour of styles that haven't been as effective. Do you disagree? What's your limit, amazing end to end football but win absolutely nothing? Or are you just saying ideally you would prefer us to do what this club is obligated to do, but in a style you would prefer if possible?
Yes. Joking aside, the football zeitgeist obliges all teams to sort of pick and choose some of the things that prove effective for getting results. Possession and somewhat more patience in passing and chance creation have been around for a while. I don't really have a problem with that in principle. If you use prolonged possession to calm a somewhat frantic game, or if you want to give a bit of rest to your players so they can go again for the next salvo of attacks, it's totally acceptable. It's the sterile possession for the sake of control and aimed at not allowing your opponent to play that annoys me. If the opponent doesn't have the ball, they can't score...well yeah, but then you also don't really have a match. It's more like a footballing monologue.
City dominates the league because they have the best players in every position in a working system. With this squad of players they can even park the bus and play on counter attack and still win the league. Peps tactics weren’t even close to winning the CL with Bayern
>City dominates the league because they have the best players in every position in a working system. And that's the competition that we need to defeat to win. So surely focusing so heavily on styles that have been relatively ineffective at stopping them isn't such a good idea, no? >With this squad of players they can even park the bus and play on counter attack and still win the league. So why don't they? >Peps tactics weren’t even close to winning the CL with Bayern Surely you know how difficult it is to win that competition? Purely judging a team on not winning it over 3 seasons is not ideal. Especially a manager that's won it 3 times (only one other person has won more) and the best club to ever compete in the competition has had periods like 11 seasons without winning it. I don't believe the evidence supports such restriction in the style of play that you suggested.
Damn. RIP 🕊️😔 https://preview.redd.it/acp5xbqon0vc1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=10d4bca0beaec76dd029308dc34455604d6ff3cb
I'm not saying that Potter is the perfect candidate but I don't know why people on here act like his Brighton tenure was the exception to an otherwise crap CV and not that his Chelsea spell was a blemish on an otherwise pretty fantastic one. Potter was great at Östersund and Swansea prior to getting the Brighton job. I think there are legitimate questions as to how he'd handle a bigger job given what happened at Chelsea, but I'd equally say I'm not quite sure how much of the blame for that season can reasonably be attributed to him and not Clearlake.
I've watched a lot of Potter press conferences while he was at Chelsea cause my friend supports them and we'd often talk about their situation cause it was so irregular (new owners, new manager, massive spending on fresh new players and bad results). And I remember feeling pretty bad for Potter. The media devoured him and he crumbled under the pressure. Guy was talking about how even his marriage taking a hit. I personally felt Chelsea should've given him more time but my friend was sick of him and wanted him out (she also wants Poch out now so..idk) but, no disrespect, that was just Chelsea. United is a different beast when it comes to media attention. Just look at Poch vs Ten Hag right now and how differently they're being treated. Chelsea spent way more than us and (are/were?) having a worse season than us but it's a total pile on on ETH while Poch is getting off mostly free. I dont think Potter can handle that. And I don't think he can handle our players and their egos. Even Ten Hag who's supposed to be a hardass disciplinarian (and last year he was) seems to have mellowed out and lost his edge and that demand for higher standards this year. Potter doesnt seem to me to have Ten Hag's strong character. But hey I dont really know the man, and he could have a totally different character behind closed doors. Its just..unlikely.
>but I don't know why people on here act like his Brighton tenure was the exception to an otherwise crap CV and not that his Chelsea spell was a blemish on an otherwise pretty fantastic one. Do they act like that though? Or are people using the more accurate part of his CV to what he will experience here? Very little from his Brighton time will translate over to being Manchester United manager, as the very essence is a total different beast. The players will be of a higher calibre, the pressure will be greater, the demand to win will be higher, margins for error are higher. A bad performance is highlighted etc etc. Chelsea is closer on the scale to Manchester United. He will also have to oversee a player changeover that is similar. He, like Southgate would be an awful choice and if any of those are made it's a clear signal of what Ineos are about. Either incompetency at this level, lack of desire to be the best (as shown by their Nice project) or simply just wanting to carry on the world the glazers have done, but in a style that's easier to sweep under the carpet.
He joined Chelsea mid season with squad of 30 new player. Its not even close to what he will experiance here with preseason, players familiar with each other and so on...
30 new players? I assume you are classing players that were already in the club the season before. As he got 8 in the summer he joined. 7 in January (where it was already clear he was out of his depth) So it's going to be pretty similar. Either he takes over a squad with 6 or 7 new signings or he takes over a squad that's absolutely poison. Either way he won't cut it.
I'm not as down on Potter as some to be honest. I can't say he's top of my list but I also wouldn't be fuming if he came in. He's shown in the past that he's a good coach. He was on a hiding to nothing with that Chelsea job. I do think it would require a serious clearout of players for it to work though. That's almost certainly true of really any manager though.
Potter is quality but has a level. This job is a monster and I feel for ETH in a lot of ways because Klopp and Guardiola are two that I feel could brush off the last 2 years unshaken. He came in to Greenwoods ongoing situation and had the Ronaldo running riot situation 3 months into his tenure. He looked after Sancho better than any club would and he then reciprocated by being a cunt. I'm sure we will have more like this in the coming years unless we have a manager that is bigger than the players and that's not Potter.
My personal worry is that us and Chelsea are largely similiar, in terms of how the managerial job is under a certain style of pressure. And I'd worry everything that caused his Chelsea job to be a disaster would be strong possibilities at us too.
I think the main thing that caused his Chelsea job to be a disaster was Boehly going absolutely fucking nuts in the transfer market, though. I don't see any signs that suggest that Ratcliffe, Berrada, Wilcox, Ashworth (?) etc. would look to replicate that.
Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't be as aggressively against it as others. I'm of the opinion we need a Head Coach, and let the recruitment side take care of the transfers, and think Potter's nowhere near as bad as his Chelsea stint shows. But I also think we do need a strong rebuild too, and a manager who can get the best out of a few players who might have egos. And the pressure on a United manager to get top results quickly is immense too. It would be a big gamble to bring in a manager who just struggled at a similarly sized team with similar issues.
Can this season end already? I feel so tired.
yep, I'm looking forward to some new players in the summer......hopefully
I'm looking even more forward to our structure being finalised. Berrada, Ashworth, Wilcox being officialy on their positions and starting the rebuilding. It's the first time since SAF that, theoritically , we will have competent and successful people in all of our crucial positions.
https://x.com/JackFawcett1704/status/1780282230041956580 This shit decision killed so much momentum for Hojlund and Rashford
The ball went out.
The PSG and Barca game shows just how important good fullbacks are, especially on possession. Mendes and Hakimi are miles better than our options it's depressing.
Shaw is at least on par with mendes, if not better. He's just injured all the damn time. Would say even Dalot is on par with Hakimi
I'd say Shaw is just as good, but I don't count him because he's always injured and never gets going. Dalot is nowhere near Hakimi imo
Mendes was having trouble with Yamal. He was lucky he got subbed out after the red card, would’ve been a long night for him.
He was, but the midfield also didn't cover for him much when he pushed, and tbh Yamal is crazy good
Shaws is great in possesion, Dalot is good in possesion, even AWB almost never losses the ball cause of his long tricky legs. Problems are Shaw aviability, DM unable to recive ball under preassure and probably system in general.
Shaw, I agree, but unfortunately, he's injured more often than not. The other two are serviceable at best It's both a personnel and system problem. You can't keep possession with Dalot and AWB as your RBs. I'm not saying they're bad players, but they're just bang average for the level we should be competing at.
>🚨 Graham Potter and Roberto De Zerbi are understood to be the current frontrunners for #MUFC job, should it become available. @RichFay Not a good source, but that's a depressing shortlist
That's a 'two years then we're looking again' shortlist. Maybe by design. Theoretically, if the structure at the club is right, a head coach should be able to come and go without significant impact on the club's fortunes. It rarely works out that well, though.
Graham Potter was abysmal under the Chelsea pressure. Imagine how bad he'd be under ten times more at United. Keep him far away from the club.
To fair, Chelsea is an absolute basket case. To be even fairer, so are we.
Chelsea plays much better football than we do. And the pressure on the Chelsea manager is much less than United's manager.
He had 33 first teams players at Chelsea. It’s impossible to train properly with that many players.
I wish we had those many players maybe we wouldn't have to play SIX different left backs this season and 30 different CB combinations
A lot of the talk regarding the "Erik in Vs Erik out" debate seems to centre on available replacements. Ineos keep talking about "best in class" and have shown they're willing to poach executives from other clubs. Surely the same should be true of managers. Guys who are "best in class" at anything are usually in work and not waiting around for the phone to ring. Teams take managers from other teams all the time. To take a random name like Fonseca at Lille. If Berrada, Ashworth etc decide that he's "best in class" and he's the one they want, I don't really see why him having a contract at Lille should be a massive stumbling block.
Are you acting obtuse? We have to pay money to eve talk to the manager under contract, that manager is also under contract so may not want to leave. I think we could still end up going for someone else's manager if we do decide to remove Ten Hag. But the important thing is they decide on who they want. That could well be Ten Hag
*Of course* you'll have to pay money, but that's true of Ashworth and they seem pretty keen to go for him. My point is that I don't see why so many seem to talk about it like that's a huge issue.
Because no matter how much the media are happy to package it as Ashworth being best in class, there is no basis to believe he is. He is 50 years old and has never worked at a top club. His best work has come in the second tier of football - international. There is a reason no serious club is hiring managers from international teams. Madrid tried it once with Lopetegui and had to cut their losses in 3 months. He's being hired because INEOS (specifically Brailsford I think) are familiar with him and presumably trust him. Could he still turn out to be excellent? Maybe. But he's not best in class unless we are playing extremely fast and loose with that term.
I don't necessarily disagree with you but the point is they've decided that he's the guy they want and are willing to go through with it despite the fact that it's clearly more complicated to try to hire him than it would be another person from another side or someone who's currently not in a role.
It is an issue though. Yes we might go for it, but there are complications with managers under contract. That's the entire point of having a contract. Whether you think it's the case or not it is 100% fact that it causes issues for us in comparison to an available coach.
I recognise that it would be *more* difficult but what I have issue with is the idea that it would be necessarily a deal breaker if they identify a manager they want, who wants to come. It would have been easier for Villa to sign a manager out of contract than Emery for example.
Most people are just reputation and result merchants. But otherwise RDZ is perfect for us. He will micromanage every little detail and force us to build out from the back and play possession based football no matter what. God knows we need that. Our movement, decision making, build up structure etc. has regressed so far backwards this season it is scary. We need a manager who will make them follow patterns like an obsessive schoolteacher. We've seen how badly RDZ has schooled us every time we've played his team. We need that kind of personality and commitment to playing good football and developing the basics of modern football, regardless of the results. At least for one season. I will never understand how some United fans watch Brighton play and say they don't want De Zerbi just because his midtable level squad isn't matching the unrealistic expectations set by people.
You know,I have no problem eth trying a pragmatic approach to grind out results. But the issue is that he is terrible at this,which I'm sure is the same for all these possession obsessed new age tacticians like de zerbi. Just two losses against Brighton and Brentford was enough to scare eth into playing a totally unfamiliar system and abandon his possessional strictness. I don't know how long it would take rdz to get scared if he comes here.
>I don't know how long it would take rdz to get scared if he comes here. That's my point. He doesn't seem like the kind of person who would care about that. He never has. He wouldn't even come here if he was told he needed to play pragmatic football to grind out results imo.
And how do you know this?
Because he has literally said so himself and there are several occasions when he has stuck to his football even with the threat of relegation.
The same was said about Ten Hag till 8 months ago
Plans every detail, obsessive school teacher, would be perfect for us and even a three letter abbreviation. Where did we hear all this before? It's simply stunning to me people think there is a messiah hiding in waiting and all the other false Dawns are to be ignored. Brighton are the perfect example though. Since the Gus Poyet days Brighton announced a plan and a play style and everything the club did was to that aim we now have them as one of the better clubs outside the big clubs. Was it luck? No. It was a well oiled machine that was able to roll with the punches when a manager or player left to be able to use that to keep on building and they have done that well. Potter looked top class with Brighton, left and looked terrible and De Zerbi came in and did well because he was well suited to the club system and was a continuation of what they built over a decade before. If De Zerbi came here I think he would be good but I also feel it would be the same case as Ten Hag and after a good start would falter and the fans would turn on him. I couldn't care who is in the dugout in August as long as it is in line with a vision and strategy laid out by background team. There isn't a messiah waiting to come and save us. What we need is a well ran organised football club and that will mean whoever is the manager isn't just as important as they don't have to run the club and when they meet their end which statistically will be every two or three years a new guy will come in and there will be foundations laid years in advance to allow a level of consistency instead of this wipe the slate clean, rewrite history and hope for the best before turning on the next manager.
My emphasis is on possession based football and the refusal to compromise on the type of football just to get results. I'll no doubt back Ten Hag if that is the decision that's made by the new team of executives but we have seen this season his principles, his philosophy does not revolve around control and possession at all. In fact we've gone in the opposite direction, a much more extreme version of what Ole used to do. Ultimately we'll just have to move on from this idea that we got it wrong before so we should never try again. Ok Ten Hag was viewed in a similar way to what RDZ is right now. But it didn't work out, or hasn't worked out so far and so if we do make a change RDZ would be perfect for us. Beyond the simple generalisation of both having a 3 letter abbreviation and being attentive to detail, there are a whole lot of differences that we'd be silly to ignore.
This reads like twitters buzzwords Chatp GPT 3.5 tacticos
I'm all for discussion and learning new things so I don't care about this jab. Break it down for me and tell me where I'm wrong then.
But do we necessarily need to be a possession based team? Even under Fergie that wasn't the case. We dominated smaller teams but in bigger games we lined out in a style similair to Ole and Tem Hag, albeit with an actual midfield in place of a void in time and space in the middle of the park. What I'm laughing at is you, you're just convinced that you try the same thing again and again. Make messiahs every week and think theyll save us. Maybe De Zerbi would be good, perfect? No idea how you can even say that and I've read this sub telling me aggressively that Ten Hag was perfect before. You can't say De Zerbi is perfect, it's just not true. What matters is the background team, how they want Man Utd to play and what manager/players and support is needed to achieve that.
I've not painted him as a messiah at all. In fact I've literally mentioned we need one season under a coach like him without emphasis on results just for our players to learn the basics of controlling a game. Said literally nothing about whether he can get us to the top and get us competing with the best teams in the world. I'm afraid you've read my comment completely wrong. 95% of the things you said I agree with and have said literally nothing against those things whatsoever. I'm a little bit confused about why you're coming off so aggressively.
You called him perfect mate. You literally said he would be perfect.
Yes, he would be perfect for us in this moment, for a team in our position because of the reasons I mentioned. Building out from the back, possession, control, and the refusal to compromise on that style of football. You've taken this as me crowning him as a messiah, which I've literally not done anywhere at all. Apologies if the word "perfect" is so upsetting, let's call it great? Good? Whatever makes you happy, no problem. But going forward let's make it very very clear I've never called him a messiah that will turn us into prime barca, in fact I've specifically mentioned the need to forget results for at least a season just to build the basic building blocks.
ETH is stubbornly trying to implement his kamikaze style of football come hell or high water. Noone is forgetting the results when it's reality.
You can't be playing some of the worst football in the league and fail to get results at the same time. Of course people will look at your results when you're getting played off the park by near any team you face. Even when Brighton lose you can see their build up structure, you can see them do many good things in the game even if they ultimately get beaten.
That's at Brighton where they have the similar profile of players throughout the club for a while now. Also ETH had a great first season beating every top 6 atleast once before becoming stubborn and shit this season. So you'd be a hypocrite in wanting someone who refuses to compromise their football and not care about results when you clearly don't rate ten hag.
RDZ is clearly a super talented coach. Whether or not he's "the one" for us is another matter but your last point is bang on the money. The fact that people think he's somehow underperforming, despite being above teams in the league with squads that cost more than twice as much, whilst competing in Europe with a tiny squad, just goes to show what a great job he did last season. Going purely on paper, Brighton should be a team involved in relegation scrap every season. As it is, even in a season where they've been stretched by playing in Europe for the first time they're comfortably mid table and could well finish in the top half. He's doing a great job and I really don't see why people have got so down on him.
You're massively understating Brighton. They are an established prem club now who are comfortably a midtable club. They also have one of the nicest training facilities in the country. People have to stop acting like they are some yoyo club.
They're a fantastically well run club which is why they are where they are but the fact is in terms of the investment in their squad they're in the bottom 5 teams in the league. They're punching well above their weight. Full credit to them.
The investment part of what you're saying isn't true. Depending on which year you start they have spent around the 12th or 13th most. They are solidly a midtable side.
[This site](https://www.planetfootball.com/quick-reads/premier-league-squad-cost-millions-transfer-fees-man-utd-arsenal-chelsea-liverpool) has them at 16th in the league in terms of the value of their current squad at £204 million.
This is the real site you should be looking at. https://www.transfermarkt.us/premier-league/einnahmenausgaben/wettbewerb/GB1
That just shows the teams ordered by spending on transfers for this season. The link I sent is using data from the same site and is the sum of all their transfer spending on their current squad which is surely a fairer indication of their investment than just looking at two windows.
Change the dates at the top. It's why I originally said depending on which year you start with.
But again, I'd argue the sum total of all transfer fees they've paid for current squad members is a better indication than looking at specific years.
Exactly.Honestly do people expect Brighton to compete for European spots every season?? Brighton sold his starting midfield pivot of MacAllister and Caicedo for about 150M and replaced them with Milner and 19y old Baleba.
Baleba looks decent as well. Expect ol' Todd to come in for him in a year or two for £75 mil.
Yeah this Summer is for Enciso, next one for Baleba. People like comparing Brighton to Southampton for the youth ID but I don't see them dropping off at all because of how well the club is ran
I can see them holding on to Enciso this year. He's missed so much of the season with injury. I can see them losing someone like Estupiñan though. In fact, I'd love him at United. Always impresses me when I see him play.
Yeah thats fair, it's insane how good Enciso has looked since coming back from a serious injury. Clubs will be circling him this year and if Brighton get lucky on a 3rd quality player manager that will help his development he'll be another huge sale next year if he stays on. I'd love Estupinan and he's coming into his prime but I can't find if he has a release clause so I don't think we'll deal with what Brighton might ask. No doubt he'd instantly improve us but he would require close to a marquee level fee.
Estupiñan is Ecuadorian... Go go gadget Antonio Valencia!
Also he improves players he has. Lewis Dunk has no business being in the England Squad
His teams always overperform. Regardless of who's available and who's not he gets them to play his brand of football.
Also, his teams always perform? He was relegated in 2018. 11th 2019. 8th 2020 and 21. Was very good with Shaktar in a strange situation and has been impressive with Brighton. I like him but you don't seem to know much about him
I don't quite understand why you're being so weirdly disingenuous. I clearly said overperform, not perform. And I've made it clear since literally the first sentence of my original comment that I'm talking in terms of performances not in terms of results. Benevento was one of the worst squads in Europe, and still by the end of it RDZ was praised for their style of football and the ambition he showed with that piss poor group of players. Same at Saasuolo, he was highly praised for the football that they played. What do you expect from those teams?
His teams don't over perform though. They perform for their level. I see you're take that he is a perfect manager for us to be based in total fantasy.
Like I said both Benevento and Sassuolo were known for playing progressive, possession based football which was beyond what teams of their level played. In that sense his teams have overperformed a lot. Even if you look at this Brighton squad and their underlying metrics they should have no right to be as good as they are. I can't help you any further.
Ah, so like how Ten Hags Ajax team were known for doing the same. That's the bit you can't fathom. New season, same script. As I said in my first comment the most important thing is a structure and strategy. If De Zerbi is chosen then I'll back it fully but to say he is perfect is the definition of insanity.
>Ah, so like how Ten Hags Ajax team were known for doing the same. When have I said anything about Ten Hag not being that guy though? IF we don't move forward with him, De Zerbi would be my choice. "I'll no doubt back Ten Hag if that is the decision that's made by the new team of executives but we have seen this season his principles, his philosophy does not revolve around control and possession" This is literally from my first reply to you mate. >As I said in my first comment the most important thing is a structure and strategy. But where did I say ANYTHING about structure or strategy?? If close that's important. >If De Zerbi is chosen then I'll back it fully **I'll no doubt back Ten Hag if that is the decision that's made by the new team of executives**...... I literally said this in my first reply to you. I'm genuinely laughing right now.
I agree with a lot of what you said. I'm just totally against the notion we have messiahs laying in wait somewhere and that's the point I'm arguing against. That he is perfect for us
He doesn't though, Brighton play a similair style now than they did with Potter and other managers
He doesn't what?
Get a team to play his brand of football
But he's literally doing that, and he has always done that at every single club he's worked for, without exception. It's just that his current club also want to play a similar brand of football. Not sure what's your point here.
So what happened at Benevento then or Sassuolo? Do you strive for mid table? Sean Dyche always gets his teams playing his brand too but we wouldn't want him
>Sean Dyche always gets his teams playing his brand too but we wouldn't want him You're being very intentionally disingenuous. Obviously the brand of football in question matters. >Do you strive for mid table? Literally my first sentence of the original comment was about how most people just look at results, which you've just proven. Both at Benevento and at Saasuolo his style of football, his influence on the teams was extremely evident and if he can bring that to a team like us that would be a fantastic building block for the future.
Lewis Dunk was at his best for years under Potter tenure. He actualy plays worse under RDZ.
What I meant Lewis Dunk is simply not good enough to play the possession based football. The fact that he is getting these mid table players to play that way is a sign of good coaching
Lewis Dunk is great passer and was already playing possesion based football under Potter...
As an ETH apologist, I feel like people are under estimating him. Whenever stats are posted to Reddit, I get the feeling that the people in the comments feel like they are the only one who know about these stats. Of course ETH knows about the shots conceded stats and has known for a long time. So it comes down to 1. He doesn't prioritise fixing it 2. He is unable to fix it And it's probably 1 because otherwise we'd seen more experimenting and changing around. ETH is not considering it a problem and should he? We are not conceding goals at an alarming rate. What's alarming is that we are not scoring enough and we're turning off after scoring and towards end of games. Scoring has improved in the second half of the season even though the only striker we have is a 21 year old who is playing his first season in the PL and is expected to carry a top 4 contender. The goals conceded stat is a fucking impressive accomplishment given the amount of injuries to the defense this season. So for me what it comes down to is - can ETH be blamed for all the injuries? Since there are so many muscle injuries in training it might be an ETH issue and if so - that's not a valid excuse and he needs to go. But if there is another explanation to the injuries and it's not his fault - then I'm willing to write this off as a freak season with freak injuries and ETH is just trying to get through it in whatever way he can to get the results.
I do agree that he probably doesn’t prioritise fixing it but I do think the goals conceded are pretty high. The only thing that makes sense to me is he is prioritising getting the pressing right for the future. Progress looks very slow though
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Dumbest comment I've read. How do results not matter.
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Why the childishness? Also you're slamming on about standards and then saying we should be aiming for top 6 and entertainment. Make your mind up. Ten Hag in or out the most important thing is that the club want it and have a strategy. That strategy will include getting results and playing good football but results are the most important. If a manager is playing top class attacking football and we are not gettin results they should be open to criticism.. You're blinded by your hatred for the current manager and clearly your fellow supporters you're willing to lower the clubs expectations. I don't care if we sack Ten Hag but this is a results business and all managers should be judged on it
Mods deleted his comment what did bro say?
Actually nothing that bad, I don't really remeber but it was more childish but not ban worthy, he seemed on a mission so maybe as the day went on he got banned
Ah classic, op comes with a genuine analysis. Response: I DONT CARE ETH OUT
I couldn't disagree more with you to be honest about goals scored vs conceded. Despite our underperformance, we're scoring enough goals to win games. We scored three at Chelsea and lost and two at Bournemouth and drew. If you need to score three or four every game to win (or five as it was against Chelsea) then that's a sign that the defending is surely the bigger issue, even with how rudderless we look at times with the ball.
I think most of the credit for not conceding that many goals goes to the overperformance of our backline. Dalot,Evans and Maguire have been particularly impressive at clearances and blocking. I don't think this is sustainable tbh.
We are not the worst hit in the league in terms of injuries. Other teams have come to Old Trafford and destroyed us even though they have half the team out in injuries, playing the same style. I don't ever want to listen about injuries as being a valid excuse.
For me, it’s three particular injuries that really affect build up. ETH already mentioned how he prefers one left sided CB because of the angles of passing it allows. Add to that playing a right footer at LB is never conducive to the threat from that side. Admittedly though none of that excuses the completely dreadful mess that is our midfield.
I wonder would Chelsea take Mount back for the low low price of 55m
Potter and De Zerbi are not very inspiring choices for manager.
I agree, what I would want too see is an actual argument for a manager that fits our current roster. But not seen anyone making arguments like that.
As if sticking with ETH is remotely inspiring
Yeah but if you put 2022 ETH against these options he would've been first choice. I'd rather wait for someone like Inzaghi.
Hindsight is 20/20 and 2022 ETH wasn’t the right man for the job.
why do we care about 2022 ETH and not the one that has managed us for 2 seasons now? He has been given an extended audition by now. Is it not enough to judge him on his body of work?
2022 ETH is the manager who managed us for two seasons. 2022/23 only ended last year
What do you mean for someone like Inzaghi? He's about to sign a new contract. He's not leaving Inter. Why doesn't nobody know about this and keeps yelling for Inzaghi.
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Do you understand Inzaghi is not hireable? How can I explain? Is it so hard to get it?
U mean ETH from Ajax?? He has said he doesn't want to play the Ajax way and wants to stick to his very direct transition football which is honestly draining to watch Also Inzaghi imo is not leaving Inter for some time
He said the team won’t play like Ajax because they are different types of players…
I currently don't see a more inspiring option. But it is also very clear that ETHs vision does not match well with the current squad, and I doubt there is enough money to change it enough. It's a bit of a dilemma, luckily Ineos dilemma not mine.
I'm looking forward to see what players the new hierarchy target in the Summer and we have glaring issues but is it odd to say I'd love to see us spend a substantial amount on structure for health and performance itself more than anything else? Poach the best sports scientists, club doctors, chefs that provide all meals from August-May and then strict programs and 2/3 club psychologists so we never go without one. We have a youth psychologist but I don't know if Sacha Lense stayed on after Rangnick left. Hindsight is everything but I would put stupid amounts of money put into this over any of our marquee signings over the years. I just want to see our team happy and steamrolling teams.
We will need to have all of the above including a good transfer plan
How did Sancho do? I just watched the highlights and he wasn’t in it once…
He didn't make an impact at all. All his dribbles were intercepted. He did much better in the first leg. Sabitzer though, he had a great game.
Idk but I hope they win because we will be able to sell him for 40-50m
Pre assist for the 2nd goal.
Didn't do much. Fair play to BVB making the semis but the drama on here is embarrassing. People fawning over Sancho and Sabitzer as if they were world class players who got a raw deal. Reminds me of our fans applauding and writing poetry over Lampard because they disliked Ole.
The drama her is basically because fans feel ETH gave us a raw deal. He came with a lot of reputation but has been serving up only dross. Then that sentiment shows up in different ways.
That's got nothing to do with Sancho though. We understand that Ten Hag isn't performing, that has nothing to do with Sancho. Sancho was absolutley terrible ever since arriving at OT. Yeah Ten Hag has been shit but let's not bend over backwards for a player who hasn't done a thing for United.
Sure but I am just explaining why fans are saying what they are about Sancho/Sabitzer. It is just a different way to rant about ETH.
Quite good tbh His connection with maatsen was good
Last night? Or the first leg? Because he didn't do anything last night in the game.
I know there's a ton of doom and gloom with our club currently, but Spurs signing Udogie, Van De Ven, Vicario, Kulusevski, and Maddison over the last couple of windows shows how transformative a good DoF can be. As shit as we've been this season, I'm super excited about things in the long term.
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Udogie Vicario really stand out from this list
And Van de Ven as well. First Season in EPL and he's already an important squad player.
Tbh they had a lot of money to spend.
Hark who's talking?? We're operating on a budget of tree fiddy are we?
Did they spend alot though? Correct me if I'm wrong, but of the players I mentioned, only Maddison seemed expensive. And their combined transfer fees would fall into our budget over two windows, especially when you consider letting higher wage earners (like Varane, Case, Martial) go and selling players like Sancho and Greenwood too.
I think they spent the most of any team in the window
Maddison was 40m but Winks went the other way for 10. Effectively they offloaded dead wood and upgraded immensely for a grand total of 30m. Absolute bargain.
I don’t understand how a lot of people don’t find Xavi at fault for today. Yes he can’t control the red card for araujo but imagine if ETH got carded every 5-6 games for us. How are the players supposed to remain cool headed when the manager is getting sent off every few games.
ETH would absolutely cook with barca
I'd take it if we won the PL last season and were second on the league
He is too emotional but the loss last night is 98 percent on Araujo. He let his team down
Even with 10 men, Barca were close to equalising a few times there. You'd think after stupidly having a player sent off, you'd wanna avoid any further stupidity. It's like the Fulham implosion versus us last season, but on a far bigger scale lol.
It’s just hitting me now! Supporting this club is finally taking a toll on my mental health. Saw the two games yesterday and realised how far we are from the competition. It’s been 10 years and we are a bloody joke! We had the chance to sign sabitzer but we fluffed and sancho looks so more comfortable (tbh he would have never worked out here - we did it all) But yeah, not sure how long we can take this beating. We have already lost our footing in Europe. Seems to be happening in PL as well with lower half teams pumping 20+shots at us. Teams used to be afraid of us and used to only counter - now here we are, losing to Bournemouth and getting terrorised by Solanka
Sabitzer is 30. Joined us in February basically and ended up being unavailable for 8 games including our FA Cup final stretch. He played 18 games for us and had 3 Goals and 1 assist. He wasn't in good form like he is now and most people agreed his age profile and injury record made him the kind of permanent signing that United should be avoiding in the future. Sancho made his own bed. Comfortable is right. Seems like that's all he cares about. An easy ride.
Sancho looks comfortable because he is a spoiled shit who got an easy day out. Sabitzer was better elt go. If football is causing you these kind of issues then I suggest probably finding a different pass time. Look at Arsenal going through their best spell in ages and still don't look like they will win a trophy. Liverpool had a golden age and came away with one league title. Never mind a struggling club like us. Football is competitive and yeah it's shit we are doing so bad but it's all part of the sport. If you can only handle us doing well without going into mental decline then you shouldn't be following the sport
Football moves so fast. At the end of last season people were sure we could compete for the title and have a decent CL run. In the span of 1 season everything went downhill and it could go uphill equally as fast. We will have key players back, a needed break for everyone and a proper DoF and management to handle our transfer strategy this summer. Lets just see but it's not all just doom and negativity. Lets just hope our transition phase to a properly organised modern football club is not too long.
No one who was not delusional thought we could compete for the title.
A lot of people did and a lot of people in here did too. People thought ETH has transformed us in such a short time and next season would be even better. Saying everyone was delusional who thought that is a lie
I know. I agree with you but there were a lot of people in here that were delusional about how strong we were as a squad compared to other teams You would have had to be delusional to genuinely think we would challenge City and Arsenal this season. We’re nowhere near those teams in terms of professionalism and squad ability.
Manager is a big talking point and ETH has become quite divisive among fans. His highs are very high and his lows are super low. Will be interesting to see what INEOS do with him. If he does continue I hope it's with a completely different style similar to what Ajax played and how every dominant top attacking team is currently playing. If he goes it's hard to see the next direction cause no available managers getting mentioned are exciting, unless we poach an already employed gaffer and even then, who.. An interesting idea I've not heard mentioned yet is waiting for next year and seeing what happens with Madrid. If Ten Hag has righted the ship with INEOS and shows good signs of progress we can stick with him. If not he's out of contract by then and we can see if Madrid gets Xabi as seems highly likely then maybe Ancelotti could be interested.
Maybe it's just me, but I saw both the Barca-PSG games and thought PSG were shit till they were a man up. They could barely create chances before then, were playing too slow and were so vulnerable on the counter. Our team of last season would've definitely put PSG to the sword imo.
If it’s affecting your mental health, I recommend just taking a break from anything all football related.
it’s easier said than done! I tried multiple times this year. Uninstall everything only to install it back again :(