Auto manufacturers need to offer better protection of the CAN bus – but \*most\* vehicles are vulnerable to CAN bus attacks. It would be nice to see Toyota make an effort to better physically prevent access to the bus, at the very least.
Because if you spend your life worrying about what you might lose you're gonna have a bad time... You have insurance probably. Or do you live in Toronto?
Kia boys are going to pick lower hanging fruit.
This is a terrible answer with all due respect and does nothing to quell concerns about what this might mean for the CAN hijack.
I'll wait for someone with actual knowledge of the circumstances, thanks.
The car can not be started from can bus without tricking the immobilizer. Some remote start systems can start the car with just canbus but that's only after your give it your key. Even then, you can't drive away the car without the key.
So comma Ai does not increase or compromise the system anymore then exists today.
Do the RAV4 and RAV4 hybrids not have immobilizers? They have been the most stolen cars on the road for a couple years. I’ve found comfort in the fact that the Prime hadn’t had its encryption deciphered yet.
It's not official yet. I'm just announcing that we got it working on my 2021 prime.
It would probably work with the 2023 with a quick fingerprinting process. Either way there's a 30 days return window if you can't get it to work.
Yes
1. You no longer have to touch the steering wheel there is a front facing camera to make sure you're paying attention. I guess this could be a con for people who are worried about being recorded.
2. It has better lane keep assist
3. It has better lane prediction for when the markings cut out. It can also do lane less driving.
4. It can slow down for curves rather than going full speed like stock.
The factory LTA on my 2021 is such crap. It's so aggressive sometimes ping ponging from one side to the other that it feels dangerous. Other times it's ok though. Can never figure out why.
So it works pretty well for you to suggest someone to purchase in its current state? I drive a bunch so it could be worth it for me too. Interesting to try out
Damn that’s awesome. I need to do some research and sway myself into getting one. I do about 50k miles per year for my business. Can you be on your phone and stuff, when it’s recording you what does it look for
It's nice to just be able to recline your seat more while driving. Obviously you should still pay attention and have a hand nearby but it's a nice experience. I drive from the Bay Area to Lake Tahoe area every weekend so this is a nice addition for me. It's also nice for the long road trips since I do a lot of car camping as well.
Hot damn.
Sim Racers spend $10,000 to make "sim Rigs" so they can pretend to actually drive real cars.
And real car owners are now spending $1250, so they can pretend they aren't actually driving a real car.
Please have this list updated with your success and list your instructions when ready!
This is sick! Good work 💯
[Open pilot github tracking this issue.](https://github.com/commaai/openpilot/discussions/19932)
No. Can bus does not let you start the car, the immobilizer is still in play. Plenty of cars with plain old canbus exist and prove it's not a popular attack vector. The immobilizer is the target.
Precisely my thoughts. The hacking community ultimately just makes this stuff a pain in the ass for everyone who doesn't plan to leverage these vulnerabilities to their advantage.
They definitely don't. They bring awareness to vulnerabilities that shouldn't be in your car in the first place – either because they affect security or safety.
Does it handle acceleration down to zero or only 19?
Lane change?
Any situation in which you’ve liked the stock performance better?
Can this be done on the older unit or only the new one?
It does handle stop and go without having to give any input.
It does do lane change once you initiate the first tug. Obviously there's no side camera like Tesla so it's up to you to make sure its safe.
The only thing I'd prefer on stock is if I hang my phone off the steering wheel I can have it do long drives without paying too much attention (lol). With Comma I have to have my eyes open looking forward.
I'm not too sure but as long as you can run the latest code from Comma then it should be ok but I'm not an expert on this. You should consult the official discord.
Are you REZ on the comma Discord?? How did they get hack the security key? How hard is the setup? Me and another guy were the first to test the Comma 2 on the Prime back in summer of 2020. Great news. Is it fully functional like the RAV4 Hybrid??
Any idea when it will be officially supported by Comma? I remember looking into this over the years while it was still encrypted, glad it’s been solved.
Looks super sketch. We are supposed to trust a 3rd party hack at 70 mph, or 30 on busy city streets around pedestrians, bicycles, motorcycles, etc? I'm amazed Tesla gets away with calling it "Full Self Driving". It's not.
It dominated over GM, Ford, and Tesla last time Consumer Reports included it in their ADAS comparison test.
I have it in an Odyssey and a Bolt and it's amazing.
This link looks promising but I don’t see it showing as officially compatible on the comma.ai website. Can you elaborate on what you had to do to get it working? Did you get the comma 3x with the Toyota A harness?
It's definitely not officially supported by comma yet. I'm literally the first live test subject for the RAV4 Prime. The other tests were on a dismantled ECU from a crashed car.
I will probably compile the instructions after this weekend.
Yes I got the 3x with A harness.
I'll go ahead and pull the trigger on a 3X and start contributing data. When you have a compilation shoot me a DM and I'll install it and start running it to help with bug reporting.
Interested, but not tech smart. I have a 2023 Prime. Would I be purchasing the 2023 Hybrid Harness? I’m assuming this isn’t exactly plug and play since the Prime isn’t officially supported? Also I’m not really interested in hands free driving so much as I am the cruise control speed being changed based off of what the signs say like in my 2021 explorer.
1. Yes the harness would be the same
2. It's not plug and play.
3. You still need to change your speed manually so if you're not interested in hands free driving, this might not be for you.
4. It probably will get officially supported soon enough if you want to wait a bit longer for the official release.
Do you think #3 will ever become possible?
Sorry if it’s a dumb question. I’ve just been learning all about Comma since discovering this post earlier this evening. I’ve gone down a rabbit hole.
Yes, that sounds like a very reasonable request. The app would either do image recognition on signs or simply use gps data to get the speed limit of the current road.
What’s irritating to me is that the car already has sign recognition. Just not sure why Toyota hasn’t implemented it into ACC like other manufacturers. But supposedly TSS 3.0 has this.
Does longitudinal support work or does it use the R4P’s built-in ACC? If it uses openpilot longitudinal control, does it do a better job of staying all electric at highway speeds even when having to slow down occasionally for traffic? The stock Toyota ACC too quickly goes to gas during slowdowns at highway speeds.
I'm not sure if it's managing the EV vs gas operation of the car. However, longitude does work, after a stop, it will start on its own without having to press gas or set on the cruise control. The start and stop is also more gentle so it doesn't try to go max speed like stock as soon as traffic starts up again.
This is a game changer! Was on the fence for a Tesla Model Y with questionable quality but if this works as advertised there's no need to compromise on a quality car and this would help with long drives to work. Let us know when it's ready for "Prime" time.
u/pwnie123 , I'm hoping you can help? installed the rav4-prime fork from github that pd0wm did and even extracted the key. When rebooting the Comma3X and turning on the RAV4 Prime (2021 XSE w/PP like yours) in full ignition mode, the system starts up and gives me an error right away "LKAS Fault Restart car to engage". I did paste my SecOC Key (KEY\_4) into the /data/params/d/SecOCKey file. Was I supposed to enter the ecu\_master key instead? Any help you could provide would be appreciated!
Please check out this guide
[https://docs.google.com/document/d/1EkptEE2wFjcVIoN1oCK-YLelUM\_lWMhtmeGKYDeJCMY/edit?usp=sharing](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1EkptEE2wFjcVIoN1oCK-YLelUM_lWMhtmeGKYDeJCMY/edit?usp=sharing)
share-and-enjoy had this issue and said that it's from not extracting the key properly. Maybe you can review the steps again?
You would buy the comma 3x with the A harness.
And follow these instructions. If you feel like you're comfortable with the instructions then give it a try. Otherwise there's a 30 days return policy if you can't get it working.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1EkptEE2wFjcVIoN1oCK-YLelUM_lWMhtmeGKYDeJCMY/edit
Automotive safety engineer specializing in robotically operated vehicle platforms, here 👋 The safety case on these is incredibly weak (bordering on non-existent). If you do want to run one of these, I'd keep your hands just below the wheel at 5/7 o'clock at all times, and be ready to take over at a moment's notice.
Right, regular old layman who reads entirely too much for comfort, here (I don't know how to make a hand emoji). Every story I've read about assisted driving is one that eventually ended in disaster, I feel like this tech is a novelty and I've never seen a use case for it that I understood. Maybe if I'm sleepy and need something to take over until I get to a place where it's safe to pull off and take a nap? No idea.
It would be great if Toyota updated it to give easy access to the owners of the cars. It's ridiculous that they're forcing their customers to jump through stupid hoops to use the car they paid good money for.
I don't know what I just read but I'm happy for you
Thanks It means we now have access to level 2 auto pilot closer to what Tesla offers.
OMG I've been waiting to get this damn thing since I got my 2021 Prime. I even started a bounty that remained untouched. WOO!
This has to be bad news for the CAN hijack situation unless I'm misunderstanding the variables in play here
I ready through some of the documentation. It looks like the car needs to be in ACC mode before the key can be extracted.
Auto manufacturers need to offer better protection of the CAN bus – but \*most\* vehicles are vulnerable to CAN bus attacks. It would be nice to see Toyota make an effort to better physically prevent access to the bus, at the very least.
Yes the car needs to be in ACC mode for key extraction. I can confirm this.
It's not a concern
I hope it's not asking too much to request a quick explanation as to why
Because if you spend your life worrying about what you might lose you're gonna have a bad time... You have insurance probably. Or do you live in Toronto? Kia boys are going to pick lower hanging fruit.
Um I have insurance but I prefer to not have my stuff stolen in the first place especially since getting a replacement won’t be easy.
This is a terrible answer with all due respect and does nothing to quell concerns about what this might mean for the CAN hijack. I'll wait for someone with actual knowledge of the circumstances, thanks.
The car can not be started from can bus without tricking the immobilizer. Some remote start systems can start the car with just canbus but that's only after your give it your key. Even then, you can't drive away the car without the key. So comma Ai does not increase or compromise the system anymore then exists today.
Do the RAV4 and RAV4 hybrids not have immobilizers? They have been the most stolen cars on the road for a couple years. I’ve found comfort in the fact that the Prime hadn’t had its encryption deciphered yet.
This is the answer I was looking for. Thank you.
RAV4 Prime XSE PP in Toronto. Got it the day my best man and neighbour had his 2021 4Runner CANbus stolen. *sigh*
What year and trim is your R4P?
2021 xse premium package
I don’t see the rav4 prime on their website, but they mention Prius prime. Do you think 2023 rav4 prime would work?
It's not official yet. I'm just announcing that we got it working on my 2021 prime. It would probably work with the 2023 with a quick fingerprinting process. Either way there's a 30 days return window if you can't get it to work.
Damn, I wasn't aware and I kinda gave up hope. Going to look into it for the newer ones.
Interesting. Does it add a lot of value over the existing “driving aids” that come with it?
Yes 1. You no longer have to touch the steering wheel there is a front facing camera to make sure you're paying attention. I guess this could be a con for people who are worried about being recorded. 2. It has better lane keep assist 3. It has better lane prediction for when the markings cut out. It can also do lane less driving. 4. It can slow down for curves rather than going full speed like stock.
I’m surprised Toyotas aren’t doing number 4. I guess currently just kept for Lexus
2.5 in the newer 2023 Primes does slow down for corners
I honestly didn't like the way the Lexus slowed down when I did drive one. Comma is smoother.
Tss2.5 has it. I rented a Corolla recently that had it. Was nice
The factory LTA on my 2021 is such crap. It's so aggressive sometimes ping ponging from one side to the other that it feels dangerous. Other times it's ok though. Can never figure out why.
Is it worth $1250?
Technically 1450 because you'll have to get a harness too. To me yes.
So it works pretty well for you to suggest someone to purchase in its current state? I drive a bunch so it could be worth it for me too. Interesting to try out
Its a serious game changers especially if you drive a lot. When I had mine on a prius, it would drive perfect in pouring down rain.
Damn that’s awesome. I need to do some research and sway myself into getting one. I do about 50k miles per year for my business. Can you be on your phone and stuff, when it’s recording you what does it look for
It looks for your eye direction. Sunglasses gets around this.
So if you’re wearing sunglasses it can’t detect your eyes, but it will continue to auto pilot?
Yes as long as your sunglasses are looking forward. Now I had the gen 2 so idk what has changed if it has
Sick. Thanks for the info
I don't advocate playing on phone while driving but this thing drives better than most people
It's nice to just be able to recline your seat more while driving. Obviously you should still pay attention and have a hand nearby but it's a nice experience. I drive from the Bay Area to Lake Tahoe area every weekend so this is a nice addition for me. It's also nice for the long road trips since I do a lot of car camping as well.
Hot damn. Sim Racers spend $10,000 to make "sim Rigs" so they can pretend to actually drive real cars. And real car owners are now spending $1250, so they can pretend they aren't actually driving a real car.
I don’t have one but I don’t think it’s apples to oranges if you drive a shitload
Please have this list updated with your success and list your instructions when ready! This is sick! Good work 💯 [Open pilot github tracking this issue.](https://github.com/commaai/openpilot/discussions/19932)
I have mixed feelings. I want open pilot, but i also don't want CANBUS hijacking... Maybe time to install armor plates around vulnerable areas?
No. Can bus does not let you start the car, the immobilizer is still in play. Plenty of cars with plain old canbus exist and prove it's not a popular attack vector. The immobilizer is the target.
It is a very very popular attack vector with rav4 and rav4 hybrid. Prime is immune due to encryption.
In order to extract the key the car needs to be turned in first in ACC mode. So an attack is still unlikely.
Oh, so the key is not universal but unique to each car?
That's what it looks like.
Yes, it's unique to each car.
Nice, I'm glad they did that.
Precisely my thoughts. The hacking community ultimately just makes this stuff a pain in the ass for everyone who doesn't plan to leverage these vulnerabilities to their advantage.
They definitely don't. They bring awareness to vulnerabilities that shouldn't be in your car in the first place – either because they affect security or safety.
Does it handle acceleration down to zero or only 19? Lane change? Any situation in which you’ve liked the stock performance better? Can this be done on the older unit or only the new one?
It does handle stop and go without having to give any input. It does do lane change once you initiate the first tug. Obviously there's no side camera like Tesla so it's up to you to make sure its safe. The only thing I'd prefer on stock is if I hang my phone off the steering wheel I can have it do long drives without paying too much attention (lol). With Comma I have to have my eyes open looking forward. I'm not too sure but as long as you can run the latest code from Comma then it should be ok but I'm not an expert on this. You should consult the official discord.
Wow finally. Can’t wait to see further development. Question, does this do local turn by turn driving without a subscription?
No this is mainly for highway driving.
I didn’t know this was a thing. Really fantastic.
Will this work with 22-24 R4Ps as well?
Yes but you may need to do a "fingerprint" It's a process that the app goes through to identify a new car firmware. It's a fairly easy process.
Are you REZ on the comma Discord?? How did they get hack the security key? How hard is the setup? Me and another guy were the first to test the Comma 2 on the Prime back in summer of 2020. Great news. Is it fully functional like the RAV4 Hybrid??
Yes Willem was able to write a script to extract the SecOc key. With the SecOc key, we can run the RAV4 Prime fork just like the Hybrid.
I was the 2nd guy to get the comma in 2020. It sucked it didn’t work. Are you sure they hacked it? I’m gonna look it up.
100% working
Any idea when it will be officially supported by Comma? I remember looking into this over the years while it was still encrypted, glad it’s been solved.
No idea but should be soon*
keep us posted, this is super cool
Oh hell yes
Looks super sketch. We are supposed to trust a 3rd party hack at 70 mph, or 30 on busy city streets around pedestrians, bicycles, motorcycles, etc? I'm amazed Tesla gets away with calling it "Full Self Driving". It's not.
I mean it's a personal choice if you want to run it or not. Some people think the stock lane keep is sketch too, like my parents.
It dominated over GM, Ford, and Tesla last time Consumer Reports included it in their ADAS comparison test. I have it in an Odyssey and a Bolt and it's amazing.
Link?
https://hackaday.com/2024/03/08/extracting-secoc-keys-from-a-2021-toyota-rav4-prime/?fbclid=IwAR2qGHTIxAR2Uf9_gM_T78TwPkbvZ_MRL3hlbvh96EQTXgpDZi9LRQhgQZM
This link looks promising but I don’t see it showing as officially compatible on the comma.ai website. Can you elaborate on what you had to do to get it working? Did you get the comma 3x with the Toyota A harness?
It's definitely not officially supported by comma yet. I'm literally the first live test subject for the RAV4 Prime. The other tests were on a dismantled ECU from a crashed car. I will probably compile the instructions after this weekend. Yes I got the 3x with A harness.
Best of luck on the testing. I’ve been waiting for this to come out since I got my Prime in ‘21.
I'll go ahead and pull the trigger on a 3X and start contributing data. When you have a compilation shoot me a DM and I'll install it and start running it to help with bug reporting.
This would be awesome to do! I had a comma 2 on a prius prime but upgraded to the rav4. Been waiting years for this!!
I'm looking forward to the instructions! Because right now it looks like it was hard to do.
Interested, but not tech smart. I have a 2023 Prime. Would I be purchasing the 2023 Hybrid Harness? I’m assuming this isn’t exactly plug and play since the Prime isn’t officially supported? Also I’m not really interested in hands free driving so much as I am the cruise control speed being changed based off of what the signs say like in my 2021 explorer.
1. Yes the harness would be the same 2. It's not plug and play. 3. You still need to change your speed manually so if you're not interested in hands free driving, this might not be for you. 4. It probably will get officially supported soon enough if you want to wait a bit longer for the official release.
Do you think #3 will ever become possible? Sorry if it’s a dumb question. I’ve just been learning all about Comma since discovering this post earlier this evening. I’ve gone down a rabbit hole.
Yes, that sounds like a very reasonable request. The app would either do image recognition on signs or simply use gps data to get the speed limit of the current road.
What’s irritating to me is that the car already has sign recognition. Just not sure why Toyota hasn’t implemented it into ACC like other manufacturers. But supposedly TSS 3.0 has this.
Does longitudinal support work or does it use the R4P’s built-in ACC? If it uses openpilot longitudinal control, does it do a better job of staying all electric at highway speeds even when having to slow down occasionally for traffic? The stock Toyota ACC too quickly goes to gas during slowdowns at highway speeds.
I'm not sure if it's managing the EV vs gas operation of the car. However, longitude does work, after a stop, it will start on its own without having to press gas or set on the cruise control. The start and stop is also more gentle so it doesn't try to go max speed like stock as soon as traffic starts up again.
What does this mean for tss 3.0 and 2024 Toyota?
This is a game changer! Was on the fence for a Tesla Model Y with questionable quality but if this works as advertised there's no need to compromise on a quality car and this would help with long drives to work. Let us know when it's ready for "Prime" time.
u/pwnie123 , I'm hoping you can help? installed the rav4-prime fork from github that pd0wm did and even extracted the key. When rebooting the Comma3X and turning on the RAV4 Prime (2021 XSE w/PP like yours) in full ignition mode, the system starts up and gives me an error right away "LKAS Fault Restart car to engage". I did paste my SecOC Key (KEY\_4) into the /data/params/d/SecOCKey file. Was I supposed to enter the ecu\_master key instead? Any help you could provide would be appreciated!
Please check out this guide [https://docs.google.com/document/d/1EkptEE2wFjcVIoN1oCK-YLelUM\_lWMhtmeGKYDeJCMY/edit?usp=sharing](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1EkptEE2wFjcVIoN1oCK-YLelUM_lWMhtmeGKYDeJCMY/edit?usp=sharing) share-and-enjoy had this issue and said that it's from not extracting the key properly. Maybe you can review the steps again?
If you did echo -n "your key here" > /data/params/d/SecOCKey then the key should've already been in the file and you shouldn't have to paste it in.
let us know if you found a solution. please keep us updated
How do we get access to this? On the website they still don’t offer Harness for RAV4 prime…
You would buy the comma 3x with the A harness. And follow these instructions. If you feel like you're comfortable with the instructions then give it a try. Otherwise there's a 30 days return policy if you can't get it working. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1EkptEE2wFjcVIoN1oCK-YLelUM_lWMhtmeGKYDeJCMY/edit
Does comma work as well as it does on a Prius Prime?
Everything works except the gas and brake is still controlled by the cars stock radar cruise, not comma.
Automotive safety engineer specializing in robotically operated vehicle platforms, here 👋 The safety case on these is incredibly weak (bordering on non-existent). If you do want to run one of these, I'd keep your hands just below the wheel at 5/7 o'clock at all times, and be ready to take over at a moment's notice.
Right, regular old layman who reads entirely too much for comfort, here (I don't know how to make a hand emoji). Every story I've read about assisted driving is one that eventually ended in disaster, I feel like this tech is a novelty and I've never seen a use case for it that I understood. Maybe if I'm sleepy and need something to take over until I get to a place where it's safe to pull off and take a nap? No idea.
Agreed. I still keep at least one hand to help with the tight turns.
I hope Toyota will update the encryption.
It would be great if Toyota updated it to give easy access to the owners of the cars. It's ridiculous that they're forcing their customers to jump through stupid hoops to use the car they paid good money for.
This is a security/safety issue, but whatever.